Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, August 20, 2014

Heat 115 Knicks 120

[Late in the third quarter, the Knicks are up by about 20. An exchange between announcers Clyde Frazier and Gus Johnson.]
Clyde: I think the crowd is stunned, Gus, by what has happened here tonight…
Gus: I’m stunned. They’re playing so well. It’s almost too easy.
Clyde: Yes, that word surreal… The crowd is like they’re waiting for something bad to happen…
Gus: The Knicks are playing well.

Watching from home, I was stunned from before the start of the game with the opening act of Q-Tip. For years “Take Me Home” by Doug E Fresh was one of the worst parts of any Knick game. As I wrote nearly 2 years ago, New York is the birthplace and capital of rap. We shouldn’t have to settle for a third rate rapper covering a song about rural life. Q-Tip is a New York native who is well respected for his work in A Tribe Called Quest, and is still active with his solo career. Nonetheless Q-Tip’s song was fit for a New York basketball team.

I was still stunned when D’Antoni furiously called a time out with 4:46 left in the game and the Knicks had a 106-92 lead. I just couldn’t imagine any of the last few New York coaches being mad with a 14 point buffer on opening night. Isiah Thomas probably wouldn’t have gotten out of his seat. Herb Williams might have looked around for a fan to tell him what to do. Lenny Wilkens might have been dreaming of 1979.

But the Knicks did play well. Granted they only won by 5 points, but they had a 16 point lead going into the fourth quarter. New York had positive contributions from Crawford (29 points on 19 shots), Lee (16 pts, 11 reb, 5 ast), Randolph (20 pts, 9 reb, 2 ast, 2 stl), and Chandler (17 pts, 9 reb in 23 min). Even though Gallinari didn’t play well, he made an appearance. How stunning is it, that an underage draft pick that missed most of summer league and preseason made his way onto the court in the first half?

It’s great that New York won, but I’m just glad of the difference that mark a change in philosophy. For the first time in years, I feel like the Knicks are a real team. I still don’t expect them to win many games this year. But I feel pride in this team, for the first time in a long time.

127 comments on “Heat 115 Knicks 120

  1. jon abbey

    I’m pretty sure Wilson Chandler is my favorite Knick already.

    and good to see these two guys taking pleasure in the team winning:

    “Curry spent the final period in the training room icing a sore right knee.

    “He should do whatever he feels he should do. I can’t control what he does. He’s the coach,” said Marbury, who said he understood D’Antoni’s decision. “If this is what it is, I mean there’s always next year.”

  2. RolandoBalkmansDreadlocks

    Great Victory by the Knicks. Mike K…Doug E Fresh is no third rate rapper. He one of the originators and such a great showman. Some may not like his song that he made about the Knicks. I did. He has a good number of classics under his belt.

  3. Owen

    Missed the game, awesome stuff though, and awesome to be able to watch the Warriors and Hornets battle it out, thank you league pass….

  4. jon abbey

    Missed the game, awesome stuff though, and awesome to be able to watch the Warriors and Hornets battle it out, thank you league pass….

    Don Nelson ignoring the fact that he burned out most of his core last year and going with basically a six man rotation tonight including 48 minutes for Stephen Jackson. it’s a long season, Don!

  5. justin

    went to the game and was very impressed. chants got pretty loud for steph during the 3rd quarter..atmosphere was very upbeat and almost shocked to see a constant lead through most of the game

  6. Owen

    Totally gratuitous on a night that chandler played so well, but I thought I would note that Renaldo Balkman filed a +10 in eight minutes of play in Denver’s four point loss, on five points with a board, a steal, a pf, and an assist.

    I am going to miss you even if Chandler makes you irrelevant…

    ;-)

  7. jason

    Wilson Chandler looked very good. He’s got some offensive ability, that’s for sure. Not a lot of guys can put together spins and shot fakes and deft footwork and finish them at the nba stage, against elite athletes with millions watching except for talented scorers. He looked like a potential 18 plus scorer in the future and I wouldn’t be surprised if he becomes a twenty pointer at one point.

    Another thing that impressed me was one time when he was the second to last link in swinging the ball to the corner for a three. Instead of just firing off a pass immediately (not that there’s anything wrong with that) he put in a savvy wrinkle of a slight shot fake that drew the defender to him and provided the corner shooter just that much more time to get off a shot. Nothing mindblowing but the game goes so fast sometimes, a lot of players just can’t slow the game down enough to add that wrinkle. For a second year player who hardly played his rookie year to show this little bit of savviness was impressive.

  8. Ted Nelson

    That felt good… I’m ready for a thorough wooping–plus 5-20 and 1-7 shooting nights for Jamal and Q, respectively–against the Sixers, but if the Knicks can at least beat bad to mediocre teams it could be a good season. The Knicks are tied for 1st place, now that’s a good feeling.

    I’m also miffed by the Marbury thing. There’s a fine line between sending a signal that this year is different and sending a signal that it doesn’t matter how well you play because I’ll put the guys I like on the floor. I don’t know what goes on in practice, of course, and awarding playing time based on playing the “right way” could be a good change for the Knicks. Although, that’s what LB tried to do.

    Wilson Chandler is promising and if he gets another shot or two to fall that’s a good night, but last night he scored only 17 points on 15 FGAs with only 3 FTAs. I see why people are excited, but that was a bad scoring night that could have cost the Knicks the game. His improvement on the boards from last season really amazes me and he could definitely be the Knicks’ best defensive player already.

    “He’s very athletic. That leads to more shot opportunities here or there because he’s creating some for himself with his moves.”

    Come on, IS, he’s athletic so he “creates” shots?? Jamal and Zach have been “creating” shots for themselves for years. This is a motion offense, the beauty of it is that you don’t have to rely on “shot-creators.” Furthermore, 15 FGAs in 23 minutes (that’s 23.5 FGAs per 36, Amare led the Suns with 16.3 last season) isn’t exactly “here or there” it’s both here and there. He shot 53% from the field last night, but he has to get to the line more and convert.
    I know I’m hard on him but 1.) when you shoot that much you invite it on yourself: you’re either the hero or the goat and 2.) I’ve seen too many Knicks with ability but lacking mentally over the last few years not to be cynical. He is definitely a good prospect, though.

  9. BigBlueAL

    make that great, not good, no great NYC rappers currently.

    Have you ever heard of a guy named Jay-Z????????

  10. dajudge

    That felt good… I’m ready for a thorough wooping–plus 5-20 and 1-7 shooting nights for Jamal and Q, respectively–against the Sixers, but if the Knicks can at least beat bad to mediocre teams it could be a good season. The Knicks are tied for 1st place, now that’s a good feeling.
    I’m also miffed by the Marbury thing. There’s a fine line between sending a signal that this year is different and sending a signal that it doesn’t matter how well you play because I’ll put the guys I like on the floor. I don’t know what goes on in practice, of course, and awarding playing time based on playing the “right way” could be a good change for the Knicks. Although, that’s what LB tried to do.
    Wilson Chandler is promising and if he gets another shot or two to fall that’s a good night, but last night he scored only 17 points on 15 FGAs with only 3 FTAs. I see why people are excited, but that was a bad scoring night that could have cost the Knicks the game. His improvement on the boards from last season really amazes me and he could definitely be the Knicks’ best defensive player already.
    “He’s very athletic. That leads to more shot opportunities here or there because he’s creating some for himself with his moves.”
    Come on, IS, he’s athletic so he “creates” shots?? Jamal and Zach have been “creating” shots for themselves for years. This is a motion offense, the beauty of it is that you don’t have to rely on “shot-creators.” Furthermore, 15 FGAs in 23 minutes (that’s 23.5 FGAs per 36, Amare led the Suns with 16.3 last season) isn’t exactly “here or there” it’s both here and there. He shot 53% from the field last night, but he has to get to the line more and convert.I know I’m hard on him but 1.) when you shoot that much you invite it on yourself: you’re either the hero or the goat and 2.) I’ve seen too many Knicks with ability but lacking mentally over the last few years not to be cynical. He is definitely a good prospect, though.

    That felt good… I’m ready for a thorough wooping–plus 5-20 and 1-7 shooting nights for Jamal and Q, respectively–against the Sixers, but if the Knicks can at least beat bad to mediocre teams it could be a good season. The Knicks are tied for 1st place, now that’s a good feeling.
    I’m also miffed by the Marbury thing. There’s a fine line between sending a signal that this year is different and sending a signal that it doesn’t matter how well you play because I’ll put the guys I like on the floor. I don’t know what goes on in practice, of course, and awarding playing time based on playing the “right way” could be a good change for the Knicks. Although, that’s what LB tried to do.
    Wilson Chandler is promising and if he gets another shot or two to fall that’s a good night, but last night he scored only 17 points on 15 FGAs with only 3 FTAs. I see why people are excited, but that was a bad scoring night that could have cost the Knicks the game. His improvement on the boards from last season really amazes me and he could definitely be the Knicks’ best defensive player already.
    “He’s very athletic. That leads to more shot opportunities here or there because he’s creating some for himself with his moves.”
    Come on, IS, he’s athletic so he “creates” shots?? Jamal and Zach have been “creating” shots for themselves for years. This is a motion offense, the beauty of it is that you don’t have to rely on “shot-creators.” Furthermore, 15 FGAs in 23 minutes (that’s 23.5 FGAs per 36, Amare led the Suns with 16.3 last season) isn’t exactly “here or there” it’s both here and there. He shot 53% from the field last night, but he has to get to the line more and convert.I know I’m hard on him but 1.) when you shoot that much you invite it on yourself: you’re either the hero or the goat and 2.) I’ve seen too many Knicks with ability but lacking mentally over the last few years not to be cynical. He is definitely a good prospect, though.

    That felt good… I’m ready for a thorough wooping–plus 5-20 and 1-7 shooting nights for Jamal and Q, respectively–against the Sixers, but if the Knicks can at least beat bad to mediocre teams it could be a good season. The Knicks are tied for 1st place, now that’s a good feeling.
    I’m also miffed by the Marbury thing. There’s a fine line between sending a signal that this year is different and sending a signal that it doesn’t matter how well you play because I’ll put the guys I like on the floor. I don’t know what goes on in practice, of course, and awarding playing time based on playing the “right way” could be a good change for the Knicks. Although, that’s what LB tried to do.
    Wilson Chandler is promising and if he gets another shot or two to fall that’s a good night, but last night he scored only 17 points on 15 FGAs with only 3 FTAs. I see why people are excited, but that was a bad scoring night that could have cost the Knicks the game. His improvement on the boards from last season really amazes me and he could definitely be the Knicks’ best defensive player already.
    “He’s very athletic. That leads to more shot opportunities here or there because he’s creating some for himself with his moves.”
    Come on, IS, he’s athletic so he “creates” shots?? Jamal and Zach have been “creating” shots for themselves for years. This is a motion offense, the beauty of it is that you don’t have to rely on “shot-creators.” Furthermore, 15 FGAs in 23 minutes (that’s 23.5 FGAs per 36, Amare led the Suns with 16.3 last season) isn’t exactly “here or there” it’s both here and there. He shot 53% from the field last night, but he has to get to the line more and convert.I know I’m hard on him but 1.) when you shoot that much you invite it on yourself: you’re either the hero or the goat and 2.) I’ve seen too many Knicks with ability but lacking mentally over the last few years not to be cynical. He is definitely a good prospect, though.

  11. DaJudge

    Totally agree with the above. Loved the victory, but I don’t really get the Marbury DNP. I am not a huge Marbury fan, but objectively his skills far exceed Duhon’s point guard abilities. Marbury also came into the year in shape, ready to play. Marbury’s problems throughout his career are well-documented. Nevertheless, some of his recent issues must be viewed in the context of the incredibly disfunctional Knick ownership/management/coaching. Further, blaming him for signing a big contract is absurd. At least give the guy a chance under the new system. I think Marbury will be much more effective than Duhon. Comments about Wilson Chandler are spot on. He will be very effective but needs to shoot less.

  12. jon abbey
    make that great, not good, no great NYC rappers currently.

    Have you ever heard of a guy named Jay-Z????????

    yeah, remarkably overrated with a handful of exceptions. every track seems to have one musical idea (a second idea? save it for another track!), and every track seems to be largely content-free, just telling us how great he is which would be fine if there were some others to back up that self-assessment. UGK made 50 songs better than any five Jay-Z has done, and I’m a lifelong NYC boy.

    (/end thread hijack)

    Chandler shoots a lot, but they seem to mostly be pretty good shots, and there were times when he was out there with Rose, Collins and Q, in which case I’m happy to have him shooting virtually every possession. (really I’d like to never see Collins or Rose on the floor, but that’s a different discussion)

  13. Italian Stallion

    Ted,

    “Wilson Chandler is promising and if he gets another shot or two to fall that’s a good night, but last night he scored only 17 points on 15 FGAs with only 3 FTAs. I see why people are excited, but that was a bad scoring night that could have cost the Knicks the game.”

    I feel like John McEnroe.

    “You can’t be serious”. ;-)

    Outside shooting is a requirement of the NBA. I team isn’t going to get all layups. Chandler is a 3 that can play some 4. It’s expected that your 3 is going to take some outside shots, including a few 3 pointers. Guys like that almost never have a FG% equal to the kind of big men that play in the post and don’t take many outside shots because they are dreadful at it. The way to judge Chandler is by visually watching whether he is taking good or poor shots “for the team”. Given his role, if he hovers around a 50% FG% and is not taking many poor shots, we should be very pleased. If he improves his ability to get to the hoop, gets more offensive rebounds, and/or improves his shot some more that will be great.

    “Come on, IS, he’s athletic so he “creates” shots?? Jamal and Zach have been “creating” shots for themselves for years. This is a motion offense, the beauty of it is that you don’t have to rely on “shot-creators.” ”

    In the past, Jamal and Zach created a lot of stupid shots. They didn’t come flying into the lane to get an offensive rebound and posterize the other team with a slam dunk.

    Again, watch what he’s doing. When he makes a little spin move along the baseline to get to the hoop ask yourself if he took a good shot or bad shot? If it’s a good shot, he should do it even more! I see no signs at all that he’s hurting the offense because he’s shooting too much or not passing enough. That was a problem with Zach last year.

    He’s a young player and will make mental mistakes here or there, but some of you guys are turning a wedding into a funeral. We finally have a legitimate solid all around starter for the future and people are nitpicking because he’s not perfect. Give the kid a break and be happy we have a very good prospect!

  14. Italian Stallion

    I don’t recall EVER taking Marbury’s side on anything, but I think D’Antoni/Walsh are wrong this time. The only rationale for not playing Marbury is that you have a solid long term prospect that you want to develop given that you know Marbury will be gone at the end of the year anyway. I can see playing Nate over him, but playing Collins over him is just plain silly. I think Collins is going to improve further, but he’s never going to be more than versatile backup that can be used in spots because of his size etc… He’s never going to be a key player. If you aren’t going to buy Marbury out, it makes no sense to not use him or show that he can still play just in case a trade presents itself later in the season when a potential playoff team gets desperate.

  15. jon abbey

    not taking sides (as I’d like them both to be long gone), but pretty clearly the argument for Collins over Marbury is defense over offense, and given that we scored 120 points without Marbury, it’s a pretty easy case to make right now.

    also, fuck Marbury and his sullen bench demeanor, dude was obviously sulking the whole game from early on. was that quarter of a million dollars PER GAME check not enough for you?

  16. Police Clyde

    The boo generator , screwing up my whole knick experience with his rhetoric. We probably lost every Young new fan after listening to his commentation. He’s the worst!!
    ok, here goes.
    1st 19 minutes of the game no praise for the shooter of the first 7 shots. In fact negative comments. Starts off by noting that Crawford had a dreadful pre-season. That’s boo generator’s way of setting the stage for a let down) First 19 minutes Zahc hit’s the rim, Boo generator says OH.
    Knick gets the ball back, Boo generator says, “right before Zahcs shot”, Both team getting second opportunities but can they finish (setting the stage for a let down) but to no avail Randolf scores. No comment from the opponent cheerleader/Boo generator. Instead he comments about he knicks dreadful pre season. ( do we really need to hear that on the opening day when so many are whatching.
    Can’t it wait)Wade scores the boo generator say’s WADE WILL NOT BE DENIED!.
    Crawford scores again after wade, no comment from the boo generator.Then randolf scores, delay reaction from the Boo generator.
    Note: 1st 20 minutes of the game
    Marion passes to wade for the basket, Boo generator comments GOOD DISH BY MARION TO FIND WADE COMING ON THE BASELINE.
    No negative comments from gus, thus far.He’s the man!
    The boo generator points out that Q Richardson has been shooting POORLY AND HE’S LOOKING TO ERUPT(setting the stage) the boo generator points out after, when Lee makes an attempt , LEE HESITATED, YOU CAN’T DO THAT!, YOU NEED TO BE CONFIDENT.
    26 min
    Crawford drives and takes a shot and misses. Boo generator says THAT’S WHAT CRAWFORD HAS TO STAY AWAY FROM, THAT’S NOT A GOOD SHOT, CRAWFORD HAD SOMEONE OPEN ON THE PERIMETER.
    (Talk about scrutiny, no room for error on the boo generator’s watch)
    28
    The Boo Generator comments when Marion scores a layup OMNI PRESENT MARION SHOWING HIS LEAPING ABILITY TWICE then he breaks it down TWICE ONCE WITH THE REJECT AND THIS TIME SCORING OFF THE GLASS Boo Generator/opponent cheerleader points out we knocked it out of bound. (Were watching the set too, Boo guy, this is not radio, are you going to point out when someone scratches. Some negative things can be overlooked)
    By this time Crawford the great had scored the first seven points and finally the boo generator (obligated to comment) acknowledges.

    32min
    Now the Boo Generator, goes to work on our other shooter who checks in from the bench. ( Yea, I’m a die hard knick fan, I refer to the NYK as” our”) Anyway, the boo generator goes to work on Chandler.
    Marion Scores, the Boo generator notes, This is after chandler’s scoring on one end, CHANDLER HAS TO GET UP ON MARION, HE’S JUST STANDING THERE NOT CONTESTING THE SHOT.
    If you have it on tivo go back to it and see for yourself, just watch the first 20 minutes. Print my comments and compare. This guy is ridiculous.
    33min
    Fans are cheering, at least on my set on Direct TV, Lets Go Knicks!
    The Boo generator (see for yourself, we were down ONE POINT)) says THE HEAT HAS TAKEN THE CROWD OUT OF THE GAME. As the Boo Generator is saying this Lee is scoring. (can you believe this guy, what stadium was he in, is there glue on the mouth piece of his head set?, what is he breathing!?)
    (how much did it take for the boo generator to say something positive, without a negative about Crawford. What has he said nice about chandler until this point 35min. Compare his boo generating comments to any other commentator, whether it be other teams or co-announcer. He is the captain. Nobody can generate more boo’s and discuss than he can. He is subtle to the naked eye. It takes a keen mind, and I am not trying to insult you guys , to notice what this guy has done for years. Why? My guess is that he wants an early vacation. Playoffs will delay his trip to the islands. Why else would you toss the home team under a bus? I don’t know. Compare his enthusiasm when the home team scores and the opponent scores, night and day. I mean talk about imposters. This guy takes the cake, candles and all.
    42
    Chandler scores no individual praise as he will do for Banks from the opposing team soon. Instead a courtesy team gesture. In the same instance after Chandler scores, Nate the great steals the ball and runs it down to the basket in an attempt to beat the clock. No enthusiasm from the Boo Generator. ( Now how do you mask something like a spurt of enthusiasm, I mean even if you were playing the good cop, bad cop routine, how do you control something like that. Why would you try? I mean this feeling of unhappiness must be in the root of his mind. Imposter! I mean, I am a die hard Knick fan, but if I am watching a game and I see Jordan leap in the air on a single bound, and stuff that ball in that basket; shit you gotta say, Dam! That was hot. I mean this guy, and I think by now you know who I am referring to; ok I will say it, the BOO GENERATOR is cold. I mean this guy is unbelievable. I mean this guy has kid knick fans wearing his tee shirts, if they only new. )
    46
    Banks from boo’s team, drives to the basket and Gus Johnson, “The real deal”, points out, it appears he got away with a travel ,“ right before he scores. The Boo generator follows Gus remark with, DID YOU SEE THE IMPOTENCE OF BANKS, THE WELL BUILT BACK COURT MAN, now this guy must have had 6d contacts on, because his direction is clear. He goes on to say; THAT TIME, OVERWHELMING THE KNICKS.
    Then He manages the Digital Replay and says THE HANGING AND BANGING of Banks, I mean this was starting to sound like something from a flick. He praised this Muscle guy, more than any knick in the history of basketball. (OK, that’s an exaggeration, but you get the point.) This guy has a vision, the islands. What else can it be?
    47
    Then Marty Collins, takes it to the basket. The opposing Cheerleader/Boo generator conveniently points out (Negative/positive) that Marty, previously Failed when he went to the basket and now he’s back on the line. (Very close to what he said. Don’t take my word for it. Listen for yourself)When Marty misses the second foul shot, You know who; OK, I will say it, The Boo Generator, whispers OH COLLINS.
    48
    GOOD JOB BY BANKS SACRIFICING HIS BODY, THE BOO GENERATOR PRAISES AGAIN.(All I am saying, is that if the coverage is going to be unfair, than let it lean towards the away team, since they have there own commentators. I have seen the coverage for the opposing team and that’s how they do it. I still can’t believe that he said the Heat was taking the fans out of the game when we were down by one point. That is totally bias. He said it while the fans were cheering. Listen for your self. That’s the way I heard it on direct tv.)
    48 still
    Knicks are winning, the boo generator comments, both teams are in disarray.
    He praises Banks again who charges for a layup. The Boo Generator/opposing cheerleader says BANKS WITH HIS QUICKNESS AND POWER, BREAKING DOWN THE KNICKS DEFENSE TO GET TO THE LINE. He continues and says, THE COACH IS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE POOR KNICK DEFENSE. (This is the season opener, cut the knicks some slack, boo generator, they were only losing by 1 point. Give the coach a break, are you aiming for him to have a nervous breakdown already)
    50
    Chandler makes a master dunk no enthusiasm by the boo generator in the same sequence, Nate the great steals the ball and scores, back to back plays. The Boo Generator, finally obligated to say something because of the sequence of events throws the Knicks a bone and says something nice.(Now if that had been the other team, The boo generator would have pulled out his remote and replayed on the digital cam, the spectacular efforts of the team)
    50
    Then #30 from the heat does a mediocre layup, the boo generator compliments him, this was right after the dunk and nate the great steal which the boo generator did not compliment Nate on.
    Then Gus the magnificent, replays the Chandler dunk, the boo generator, obligated to comment throws the Knicks a bone.
    54
    Jamal attempts a three and misses , the Boo Generator/opposing cheer leader comments Jamal had a remarkable start(positive/negative) but now he is “struggling”) then he goes on to say after an illegal defense, that the knicks is so concerned with Banks they cause an illegal defense . BANKS HAS BEEN BREAKING DOWN THE DEFENSE he continues.
    Q Rich, shuts him up by scoring, then obligation sets in again.
    It would be nice to give him a taste of his own medicine. Fire the boo generator! Would be the best chant I could here at the garden. Fire the boo generator! Fire the boo generator! Fire the boo generator!
    Don’t take my word for anything I said today. Go back to your TIVO and replay it. On the channel I was watching the knicks fans were cheering when the boo generator made that comment, that the heat took the fans out of the game.
    It took me time and effort to deliver this to you guys, I hope the fans from this blog and the others that I will post it on appreciate it.
    Your Welcome! Now let’s give the Boo generator a taste of his own medicine. Sorry in advance for any typos.
    I only saw the first 55 minutes. I will watch the remainder today. Did the fans finally take the boo generator out of his game?

    I guess by the opening comment of this blog, they did.

    Good work Knicks. But beware the boo generator is lurking.

  17. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    The way to judge Chandler is by visually watching whether he is taking good or poor shots “for the team”.

    That’s ludicrous. There’s no reason to throw out numerical evidence. Humans are notoriously bad at visually understanding percentages. How else do you explain the success of the gambling industry?

    Chandler can be judged by both observational & statistical data. Just like anyone else.

    That said I thought he had a good night by both accounts. I can live with 8-15, but it would be nice to see him draw some more contact & get to the line. The guy’s only 21 with not even 750 minutes under his belt, I’m willing to cut him a lot of slack at this stage.

  18. jon abbey

    the funniest Clyde comment I heard was mid-second quarter when he said “typical low-scoring Knicks-Heat game” with no sarcasm whatsoever. not so much, dude.

  19. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    Yeah I couldn’t believe the crowd was cheering for Marbury. Before the game, Steph was the first person introduced and the crowd booed him. Make up your minds folks. One minute you want him run out of town. The next you want him on the court. You know what I would have loved to see. D’Antoni stick in Marbury, have Steph dominate the ball & miss 2 or 3 shots, and have the crowd start booing him.

    Also, there was no pressing need for Marbury to be on the court, so why insert him? Is there any doubt that if it were Isiah or Herb Williams they would have capitulated & put Marbury in? (Which should tell you that it was the right move to keep him on the bench). I think in that one move D’Antoni told Marbury and the crowd who is in charge. I’m willing to give D’Antoni the benefit of the doubt on this one, considering Marbury’s history.

    Knick fans were all upset over Isiah taking a team vote then caving in & playing Stephon. So now when a coach shows some backbone, everyone gets in his face?

    I’m not sure if I get the other side of the argument…

  20. JK47

    The last couple Ghostface albums have been pretty great. He’s still going strong. Best NYC rapper in my opinion and has made two true classics: “Supreme Clientele” and “Fishscale.”

  21. Italian Stallion
    The way to judge Chandler is by visually watching whether he is taking good or poor shots “for the team”.

    That’s ludicrous. There’s no reason to throw out numerical evidence. Humans are notoriously bad at visually understanding percentages. How else do you explain the success of the gambling industry?
    Chandler can be judged by both observational & statistical data. Just like anyone else.

    We agree. I never said to throw out statistical evidence.

    I said as long as he’s shooting around 50% we should be very pleased because part of his role is to take outside shots, including some 3 pointers.

    The visual part I am talking about is determining whether he is taking good shots or bad shots. I really don’t care if he shoots 10 times a night or 25 times a night as long as they are all very good shots and he’s hitting 50% or more. However, the more the merrier if they are good and he’s hitting them.

    To me, the number of shots a player gets is partially related to his innate ability to create for himself and the range he has as a shooter. Some guys will take more shots because they are chucking. Some guys will take shots that are outside their range to be effective. Others will take more shots because they can hit them and create them. I really didn’t see Chandler taking many bad shots last night even though the shot count was high relative to his minutes. That was my only point.

  22. Sharp

    Yeah I couldn’t believe the crowd was cheering for Marbury. Before the game, Steph was the first person introduced and the crowd booed him. Make up your minds folks. One minute you want him run out of town. The next you want him on the court. You know what I would have loved to see. D’Antoni stick in Marbury, have Steph dominate the ball & miss 2 or 3 shots, and have the crowd start booing him.
    Also, there was no pressing need for Marbury to be on the court, so why insert him? Is there any doubt that if it were Isiah or Herb Williams they would have capitulated & put Marbury in? (Which should tell you that it was the right move to keep him on the bench). I think in that one move D’Antoni told Marbury and the crowd who is in charge. I’m willing to give D’Antoni the benefit of the doubt on this one, considering Marbury’s history.
    Knick fans were all upset over Isiah taking a team vote then caving in & playing Stephon. So now when a coach shows some backbone, everyone gets in his face?
    I’m not sure if I get the other side of the argument…

    I was at the game, and the first time the chanted started, it seemed like it was a small percentage of the crowd making noise, with the rest of the crowd utterly confused. At least I know I was. The second time around, when the chant started it was subsequently booed down pretty quickly. While there’s still a few Marbury loyalists out there, I think the majority is anti-Starbury, myself included. I couldn’t agree with Jon Abbey anymore in his post above. While Miami was awful last year, defensively they only allowed an average of 100 a game, so I’m taking this 120, sans Marbury, as a good sign.

  23. David Crockett

    there are no good NYC rappers currently and haven’t been for a while. Cam’ron had a shot but lost it pretty quickly.

    I’m not even a particularly big fan of his, but I’d argue that Nas is a great rapper.

  24. Mulligan

    Police Clyde? CRA-ZY!
    I can’t believe you would take that much time to type out your crazy transcript to hate on Clyde. How long did it take you to write that?

  25. Ted Nelson

    I’m a Nas guy, myself.

    If D’Antoni hasn’t made it very clear to Stephon Marbury that he’s doing something to piss him off (not listening, overdribbling, etc.), then I wonder if this isn’t sending the wrong message. As DaJudge says, he showed up in great shape and ready to go, then had a pretty good preseason. On the other hand, Curry showed up out of shape. He’s got to be careful what kind of incentives he’s creating. Punishing someone for their history if they’re deserving of minutes since you’ve been around is bush, but I have no idea if Marbury’s been deserving of minutes.

    IS,

    I have no problem with Chandler taking outside shots. He just has to get to the line more. He was 2 for 5 outside the paint, not at all bad especially since he’ll hit at least 1/3 of his 3s on an average night. However, to score 13 points on 10 FGAs in the lane is just not very good. Since I hope he’ll be playing on an average offensive team, he’s going to have better options than forcing shots when he’s not out there with Mardy and Rose.

    “Guys like that almost never have a FG% equal to the kind of big men that play in the post and don’t take many outside shots because they are dreadful at it.”

    I don’t know how many times I have to prove to you that this notion is WRONG… It’s just not true, look at the data. I don’t know if I have to take after Owen and start recommending reading… Basketball on Paper and the introduction to any year’s Pro Basketball Prospectus. When I first came to Knickerblogger I was completely anti-stats, someone told me to read those two books and I saw the light. I’m not saying you don’t have to watch the games and use your brain to interpret the stats, but in a lot of regards they just add up everything you saw and put it on one sheet of paper. Box scores don’t tell you everything, but if I were a front offive with the resources to use I’d have much more intensive statistical analysis available.
    Anyway, even if this was true, Chandler took 66% of his shots in the paint last night.

    “Given his role, if he hovers around a 50% FG% and is not taking many poor shots, we should be very pleased.”

    When you lead the team in FGA/minute–tied for 2nd in FGAs overall–and score 1.04 points/possession while your teammates combine for 1.18 points/possession, then I don’t think I have to be pleased. When someone not named Wilson Chandler was using a possession last night the Knicks were far better off.
    Again, as the books I’ve recommended will describe better than I can, FG% doesn’t mean much. How effectively are you using possessions? Three pointers count for more than two pointers, then there’s the FT line. It’s something like BA vs. OBP vs. OBS in baseball.

    “In the past, Jamal and Zach created a lot of stupid shots. They didn’t come flying into the lane to get an offensive rebound and posterize the other team with a slam dunk.”

    I’m not complaining about the putbacks. He has the potential to be a high efficiency scorer because he was a decent outside shot and the athleticism/size to finish, get in the lane, and get to the line. Last night he didn’t put it all together. He didn’t have a very good scoring game, although also not a terrible one. Given all the other things he does I woulnd’t even care, except that he took 5.5 more FGAs per 36 than anyone on the roster last night. If he limits his FGAs I won’t care nearly as much about his scoring efficiency (provided he boards and Ds up). I also rarely ever see the guy pass.

    Who knows what he’ll do for the rest of the season and his career? He makes another shot in the average game and he’s an All-Star, he misses another one and he’s a chucker… He’s going to have 17 point 15 FGA nights, 5 point 11 FGA nights, and 24 point 12 FGA night. Over the course of an 82 game season and 10-15-20 year career the question is how many of each will he have??

    “When he makes a little spin move along the baseline to get to the hoop ask yourself if he took a good shot or bad shot? If it’s a good shot, he should do it even more! I see no signs at all that he’s hurting the offense because he’s shooting too much or not passing enough.”

    If he had shot much more the Knicks would have lost. When you aren’t all that good and you force shots, it’s not a good thing.

    “He’s a young player and will make mental mistakes here or there, but some of you guys are turning a wedding into a funeral. We finally have a legitimate solid all around starter for the future and people are nitpicking because he’s not perfect. Give the kid a break and be happy we have a very good prospect!”

    If he doesn’t learn how to score efficiently, he will never, ever, ever reach his potential. That’s all I’m saying. Last night, only one game I know, he shot a TS% of 52% (yes his FG% was literally higher than his TS% http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chandwi01.html), last season 48%. These are just facts. Since you don’t value advanced stats very much when assessing players in general, it makes sense you wouldn’t value them when projecting prospects.
    It was one game, but I just thought it was odd that everyone was praising WC as the 2nd coming.

  26. joeyd

    Im dont agree with benching marbury, but i do agree that the young players need to play more minutes. The bigggest problem i had with the past regime is not playing the young players and continuing to bring in more vets that eat minutes.

    I think Marbury will get time, however keep a 9 man rotation every night!!! if that means that a good player doesnt get in the game, so be it!!

    Marbury’s negatives in my opinion are his lack of leadership ability and basketball iq, if coach feels like he gets that from duhon and that those characteristics are more important than marbury brings, im on board with the coach.

  27. foliveri

    This whole thing about Marbury is nonsense.
    Seriously, the man was getting 18 points and 6 assists as “the best point guard on the Knicks,” and the Knicks sucked. And they sucked bad.
    The knock on him has never been athleticism, ability to get to the hoop or anything like that. The knock on him is his inability to effectively run an offense…His inability to spread the ball around. His inability to lift the players around him.
    As a pro, he is not a winner. And as someone noted, he sulks. Last year, he was a cancer. He’s been in the league forever and his maturity level doesn’t go beyond Robinson’s.
    The man made his own bed. He didn’t buy in for years. He made it all about him for years. The Knicks continued to lose.
    How long do you make upside arguments about a guy before someone finally realizes he pads his stats on bad teams.
    I think Crawford is the same kind of player. He pads stats on bad teams.

    The key to this season for me is this: how do the Knicks continue to win when Crawford decides to disappear from night to night, as he is prone to do?
    I noticed that Lee’s scoring dipped a bit this game v. the preseason, in part because Crawford was taking more shots.
    Will Lee and scorers like Robinson pic up the slack?
    I think this team getting close to .500 will depend on how they fill in for Crawford when he settles into shooting 41 percent and has occasional nights where he scores 12 points.
    I think this offense can adjust to that because it spreads the ball and follows the hot hand, and the Knicks have players who can score.

    Last point of a long note, I think Chandler is going to displace Q soon. I know they see him as a PF, but running Chandler, Lee and Zach out there more and more is going to create real problems for most teams, and potentially makes the Knicks front line one of the best at rebounding in basketball.
    Chandler is a starter.

  28. Ted Nelson

    That last post was way longer than I intended:

    -It’s been 1 game and a rookie season, but how efficiently WC scores is going to be the difference between mediocre starter, average starter, and a real difference maker. It could also be the difference between medium-high usage guy on a bad team and medium-high usage guy on a good team. Right now the rest of his game–less passing/playmaking–is coming along great.
    -He took 10 of his 15 FGAs (66%) in the paint, and it’s not true that perimeter players are necessarily less efficient scorers anyway.
    -FG% doesn’t tell you much. eFG% is a better measure of FG shooting and TS%/PSA better for scoring efficiency.
    -The problem was not so much Wilson Chandler last night, as the fact that he scored much less efficiently than the team average. I don’t know how many minutes he spent with which teammates, so maybe Jon Abbey has a point and playing on a “defense” unit with poor offensive teammates hurt his efficiency. A possible bad sign for the Knicks is that several of their better players played over their heads offensively and they barely pulled out the win against a mediocre to bad team.
    -He’s got to get to the line or become an amazing outside shooter to improve, my money’s on getting to the line being an easier improvement to make.
    -I have no idea how he’ll do from here, but am hoping for the best. I’m not jumping for joy because I’m hoping for a real difference maker and not just an average starter. Average starter is at least an improvement for the Knicks, though, I guess.

  29. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I hope you’re all glowing. The Knicks took game 1 by 5 pts against last year’s worst team.

    This is the high point of the season.

  30. Frank

    Wow — all this hemming and hawing over Wilson Chandler’s points/shot last night is really surprising considering this is a stats based blog discussion — which should lead to the conclusion that one game’s worth of stats is essentially useless in truly determining someone’s value. When looking at one game at a time, I completely agree with IS — as long as he’s taking good shots, I’m happy that he took a bunch of shots last night. Over the course of the season, more of those will go down for him then did last night. The fact he took 66% of his shots in the paint last night should be a great sign that everyone should be happy about. It’s like looking at Alex Rodriguez go 0-4 in a game, smoking the ball to the warning track each time up but the outfielder just barely getting it each time, and saying that he had a terrible hitting day and that the Yankees would have been better off if someone not named Alex Rodriguez had played that night.

    I think the promising thing about Chandler last night was that he wasn’t forcing quite as much as he was last year despite his many field goal attempts. And he had 9 rebounds in 23 minutes from the SF position. And just 1 turnover.

    Re: the Steph issue — I’m happy he’s not a focal point, but I was a bit disturbed by the total benching. Regardless of his statements early in the preseason, he’s really been on good behavior and played pretty well during the preseason. I think D’Antoni could have played him 10-12 minutes and made the same point without embarrassing him. I actually felt bad for him last night. Certainly he couldn’t have done worse than Mardy, who does not look like an NBA-level ballhandler (or player for that matter) at this point. Again, as noted above, it’s only 1 game, but 2 times stripped of the ball in 10 minutes, 0-2 from the FT line — pretty brutal.

  31. Police Clyde

    Mulligan

    You don’t sound to convincing. Tell me what part of what’s written, about the boo generator is incorrect. I v’e been watching this clown for a long time. Before Isiah. I guess if I had spent the amount of time some have on criticizing Isiah, that would be OK. It’s only crazy if it’s not true. There is only one way to find out. record the recap. You don’t have to watch the whole game. Just watch the first 20 minutes. Then get back to me. Don’t just arbitrarily say something is crazy. That does not make any sense. Be logical.

  32. jay zee

    Mulligan

    You don’t sound to convincing. Tell me what part of what’s written, about the boo generator is incorrect. I v’e been watching this clown for a long time. Before Isiah. I guess if I had spent the amount of time some have on criticizing Isiah, that would be OK. It’s only crazy if it’s not true. There is only one way to find out. record the recap. You don’t have to watch the whole game. Just watch the first 20 minutes. Then get back to me. Don’t just arbitrarily say something is crazy. That does not make any sense. Be logical.

  33. Owen

    Ahh, yes, fire on the boards. And a real win. Good to be back in business.

    Unsurprisingly, I am going to agree completely with Ted Nelson. When I scanned the box score last night I thought I saw Chandler had gone 8-13. If fact it was 17 points on 8-15 with two missed free throws for a ts% of 52.8%. Hate to be a killjoy but those two shots matter.
    There is a big difference between the way David Lee scored his sixteen and the way Wilson Chandler scored his 17.

    The quality of Chandler’s peripherals is exciting, but we don’t need another high volume, 52% ts% guy. I have been banging that drum concerning Chandler for a while and I am going to continue to do so. Efficiency counts.

    Speaking of efficiency, after having watched the game, I am going to do something entirely predictable and say Lee was the best Knick on the court last night. That guy can really throw an outlet pass. I can’t believe how much he has the ball in his hands under D’Antoni.

    And yeah, Fishscale really is a great album, check out “The Champ.” Would make a great song for the Knicks to come out to.

  34. djm13

    There are great MC’s from NYC currently, it’s just that their best work was in the past. LOL @ papoose.

    Anyway, saying DOug E Fresh is a third rate rapper might be true from an extremely literal sense, but can we please not call the man 1/2 responsible for La Di Da Di – possibly the pinnacle of hip hop history – a third rate rapper on principle alone? The man is a legendary beat boxer and embodies the essence of what made hip hop so good in its golden age.

    As for the Knicks..I have some work to do so I need to read through some of these posts but (and I will say I was/am happy/hopeful) color me unimpressed. For one, this Heat team is expected to be much better this year but it was pretty apparent last night that they are an unorganized bunch with no team cohesion. Their team defense was that of a pick-up game. Now how much of this was the new sets D’Antoni has implemented? Certainly at least partial credit must go there – that was by far the most fluent of an offense I have seen run in years here. J-Craw came out red hot which could be the new offense but usually is just what happens when he hits a couple in a row, if he wasn’t scorching hot in the first it might have been a different game. Z-Bo still took some terrible, long, guarded jumpers which mainly fell but is not a good sign to me. And while they got it together I was alarmed at how many OREB they were giving up in the first half. Beasley played like trash and Wade didn’t seem to have it going, Marion was quiet too. Haslem destroyed them. Nice win – I’m just not going to get carried away until I see the team do it on a regular basis.

  35. jon abbey

    I hope you’re all glowing. The Knicks took game 1 by 5 pts against last year’s worst team.

    this is pretty ridiculous, that team wasn’t especially similar to this year’s edition, a healthy Wade plus Beasley plus Marion after he’s had time to get adjusted to Miami plus Chalmers plus they’re actually trying as opposed to the bulk of last season. Miami should be a borderline playoff team this year, and probably has three better players than anyone on NY, it was a nice win and doesn’t need to be minimized. giving up 32 points in the last 6:30 wasn’t cool, though.

  36. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    It’s like looking at Alex Rodriguez go 0-4 in a game, smoking the ball to the warning track each time up but the outfielder just barely getting it each time, and saying that he had a terrible hitting day and that the Yankees would have been better off if someone not named Alex Rodriguez had played that night.

    To fit into your analogy we’re wondering if Wilson Chandler is Arod (just missing but eventually those will go over the fense) or Dave Kingman (sure he looks good playing, but boy does he miss a lot). And you can’t tell the difference between a .250 hitter and a .300 hitter solely by watching games. The difference is one hit per week – immeasurable by human perception.

  37. ess-dog

    The play in the 3rd quarter where Chandler took Marion off the dribble and went straight in for a layup was the most telling for me: we don’t have any other player that could do that on Marion, one of the best defenders in the league. Of course, Chandler needs to show he can do it night in and night out.

    But he could be the one position on the Knicks where we actually have an advantage over the opposing player at that position (someday.) As much as I like Lee, you can’t even say that about him (although I thought he filled the passing lanes nicely last night, swatting away 2 passes for layups, although his man defense is still his weakness.)

    Nate could also end up creating advantages for us as a 6th man, if he is consistent, especially with so many assists. But what we still need is a shot-blocker off the bench. Sean Williams is out of the rotation in NJ… I’d love to get him over on this side of the river where the weed tastes better (LOL)!

  38. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    There are great MC’s from NYC currently, it’s just that their best work was in the past. LOL @ papoose.

    Anyway, saying DOug E Fresh is a third rate rapper might be true from an extremely literal sense, but can we please not call the man 1/2 responsible for La Di Da Di – possibly the pinnacle of hip hop history – a third rate rapper on principle alone? The man is a legendary beat boxer and embodies the essence of what made hip hop so good in its golden age.

    You’re right about the third rate comment. How about “way past his prime”?

  39. njhoop

    Great point about D’Antoni’s tirade Mike. I was at the game and was watching him thinking “This is a coach who actually cares” During the Isiah regime, the opponent would go on a 15-0 run and there would be no reaction from the coach, just that stupid smile.

    Enjoyed the game a lot, but keep in mind that the Heat have no low post presence, just like us. This team will struggle with any team that has a force down low – Brand, Yao, etc.

  40. Thomas B.

    Illmatic
    Stillmatic
    God’s son
    It was Written

    Only a person who knows nothing of rap music couls actually say that Nas is not a great rapper. Illmatic alone is the best complete effort from any NYC rapper EVER. Jay-Z has had a few hot albums-Blueprint, and Reasonable doubt, but nothing as hot as Illmatic.

  41. Thomas B.

    Music is timeless.

    A Lenda do Caboclo by Hector Villa-Lobos (1920) is no less a masterful piece of music 88 years later.

  42. jon abbey

    most music isn’t timeless (and certainly not Illmatic), but I’ll leave that aside because it’s irrelevant.

    the point is that artists aren’t timeless, most have very small windows of peak creativity, and Nas isn’t good now. or maybe you think that NY should add Oscar Robertson and Elgin Baylor for athleticism?

  43. jon abbey

    Enjoyed the game a lot, but keep in mind that the Heat have no low post presence, just like us. This team will struggle with any team that has a force down low – Brand, Yao, etc.

    totally agreed on this, some of those mismatches inside are going to be ugly.

  44. Daniel

    has this been discussed?……

    Chris Sheridan ESPN

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-081029

    “The Knicks are one of several teams that have contacted the Golden State Warriors about disgruntled forward Al Harrington, though the Warriors are said to be more interested in a package built around David Lee (16 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists against the Heat).

    One source told ESPN.com that Golden State’s best offers were coming from two Western Conference rivals, but that management would prefer to ship him to the East. A straight up Curry-for-Harrington deal would appear to fill needs for both clubs, although Golden State would be taking on an extra year of salary and making a risky investment in a player viewed by many around the league as too undriven emotionally to ever be an impact player on a contending team.”

  45. jon abbey

    sorry for too much music discussion (although Mike did start it), but it’s funny to note that not one person has mentioned Public Enemy, in their prime as great a group as rap has ever seen and probably along with the Wu-Tang, NY’s greatest rap group ever. this is in part because their style doesn’t hold up well 20 years later, because most music isn’t timeless.

  46. Thomas B.

    most music isn’t timeless (and certainly not Illmatic), but I’ll leave that aside because it’s irrelevant.
    the point is that artists aren’t timeless, most have very small windows of peak creativity, and Nas isn’t good now. or maybe you think that NY should add Oscar Robertson and Elgin Baylor for athleticism?

    So predictable you are. I saw the Eligin Baylor comment coming a mile away. Actually, I thought you would have said Chamberlain and Jerry West.

    My point is not that NAS is what he once was, but even diminished, he is still the best thing out of NYC. Who is better than NAS? Hell NAS set the bar so damn high so early on, how could he ever outdo Illmatic. Its like the rookie who wins MVP then is only an All-star player afterwards. Oh he isnt as good as he was, but that doesnt make him bad.

  47. Thomas B.

    sorry for too much music discussion (although Mike did start it), but it’s funny to note that not one person has mentioned Public Enemy, in their prime as great a group as rap has ever seen and probably along with the Wu-Tang, NY’s greatest rap group ever. this is in part because their style doesn’t hold up well 20 years later, because most music isn’t timeless.

    Were we not talking about rapper in the singular, not groups and dous?
    Public Emeny has not aged well, but I was never big on them as they were a touch early in my peak years of music appreciation. Illmatic came along at my peak interest in popular music, hence my continued deep affection for that recording and artist.

  48. Thomas B.

    The Warriors won’t trade Al Harrington for Curry straight up. That’s absolutely ridiculous.

    Yeah what he said.

  49. Ted Nelson

    Daniel,

    Saw that quote. As far as Lee… for Al Harrigton? LOL. I would hope the Knicks would hold out for Brandan Wright & Anthony Randolph or Andris Biedrins (& maybe a pick) to send Lee to GS.
    I don’t think Curry for Harrington is all that ridiculous, because Harrington isn’t all that good. Very low chance of it happening (because Curry’s fat and Don Nelson is prejudice against players over 6-7), but I wouldn’t support giving up much more than Curry for Al Harrington. WC has a good chance to become a richman’s Al Harrington, plus Harrington is upset at Don Nelson for not playing him more than 27 mpg AND not letting him do WHATEVER HE WANTS offensively. If Al Harrington thinks he’s still going to be a star he’s about 8 years too late. He’d be a good veteran acquisition for the Knicks if his head’s on straight, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. Of course, Donnie Walsh has acquired Harrington not once, but twice, so I have a bad feeling the Knicks are going to send David Lee for Al freaking Harrington, and maybe through in an unprotected 1st or two.

    IS,

    To continue beating a dead horse, whether Chandler becomes the Knicks best player depends on how you assess who’s the best player (as well as how he and others play, of course). To me high-usage low efficiency does not equal best, but his D certainly gives him an edge over Crawford and Randolph. We’ll have to see how he develops.

    Frank,

    You’re right about one game–and I tried to make that point as well–but Wilson Chandler is also not A-Rod.

    Foliveri,

    - No one’s asking Marbury to run the offense fulltime, but if he’s in great shape, playing within the offense, trying hard on D, and scoring efficiently he could help the Knicks.
    - Marbury and Jamal don’t just pad their stats on bad teams, their stats are a big part of the reason they play on bad teams: neither is much of a defender, they’ve both taken a high portion of their teams’ shots at low efficiencies (except Steph in 04-05), and as you’ve said most of the time either they haven’t played in coherent offenses or they haven’t played within them much if they have.

  50. jon abbey

    “My point is not that NAS is what he once was, but even diminished, he is still the best thing out of NYC. ”

    no, Ghostface has taken shits that are more eloquent than Nas, but again, you fail to comprehend my point. my point was that there are no great rappers in NYC right now, which I’ve since amended because I forgot Ghostface. someone can be the best from a certain scene and still not be great in the grand scheme of things. you know, like the best Knick for instance. :)

  51. Italian Stallion

    Ted,

    I don’t have time to address all of your comments, but here’s a few notes.

    Most teams shoot under 50%. If Chandler can keep his FG% around 50% shooting a combination of inside, outside, and 3 pointers like he has been, we should be very grateful. Perhaps it would be better if he got to the free throw line a little more and improved on his percentage there, but overall he’s doing fine job so far.

    I don’t know where you get the idea that post players don’t tend to have a higher FG% than players whose role it is to shoot from the outside a lot. The all time FG% leaders and the leaders in any given year are typically guys that get most of their points in the paint. Among them, those that can also score from the outside when required are among some of the giants of the game.

    Those high FG% are not always associated with terrific offensive skills. They are sometimes only associated with proximity to the basket. Many of those inside players can’t hit free throws or anything from the outside when available or “required”. The key word is “required”. Someone has to shoot from the outside from time to time. That will automatically translate into a lower FG% for that player because hoops under the basket are not always available. The “key” is whether he’s shooting “good shots” or “forcing them” when something “better” was available for a teamate.

    The only legitimate complaint about Chandlers play from late last year, summer league, pre season, and last night is that he’s not a very good free throw shooter yet. He has to improve on that.

    Anyone that came away from last night’s without growing enthusiam for him is not watching the same sport I am.

  52. villainx

    Rap is one area that I haven’t been able to get a good grip on or a good source of critical perspective. Anyone got good current recommendations? And perhaps why.

    I’ll look into Ghostface more.

  53. Thomas B.

    “My point is not that NAS is what he once was, but even diminished, he is still the best thing out of NYC. ”
    no, Ghostface has taken shits that are more eloquent than Nas, but again, you fail to comprehend my point. my point was that there are no great rappers in NYC right now, which I’ve since amended because I forgot Ghostface. someone can be the best from a certain scene and still not be great in the grand scheme of things. you know, like the best Knick for instance. :)

    This whole dialouge ignores one important thing. We have no established frame of reference for what makes one rapper better than another. It is subjective. I like some of what Ghostface has done but IMHO he isnt as good as Nas. As this is subjective based on what each of us value in an artist, we should just agree to disagree. Even though I am clearly right. :) Best Knick, that’s easy. Obviously its Wilson Chandler.

  54. Italian Stallion

    Ted,

    “To continue beating a dead horse, whether Chandler becomes the Knicks best player depends on how you assess who’s the best player (as well as how he and others play, of course). To me high-usage low efficiency does not equal best, but his D certainly gives him an edge over Crawford and Randolph. We’ll have to see how he develops.”

    I understand your perspective. We’ll probably never agree because I am using stats as a tool in combination with other things.

    IMO, high efficiency and low usage is sometimes telling me something negative about a player’s offensive skills. It’s means he’s incapable of creating his own shots or knows he can’t hit them from a variety places, distances, in different ways etc…

    IMO, ideally you want a blend of high efficiency and high usage, but slightly lower efficiency and much higher usage is OK. It’s sometimes better than high efficiency and very low usage.

    That where we disagree slightly. Chandler’s high usage is not bothering me so much because IMO he’s being efficient enough given the types and quality of shots he’s taking.

    I guess we can end this by agreeing to disagree.

  55. jon abbey

    last rap hijack:

    “Rap is one area that I haven’t been able to get a good grip on or a good source of critical perspective. Anyone got good current recommendations? And perhaps why.”

    IMO, UGK from Houston are the best ever, sadly still somewhat overlooked up here. why? well, besides usually having something to say and being real and hilarious, they’ve built on the legacy of the first three Funkadelic albums more successfully than anyone else in history (not Parliament, which is much easier to build on and much more ubiquitous).

    check Super Tight, Ridin’ Dirty, Dirty Money, and Too Hard To Swallow in that order, and there’s a fantastic half-hour or so of material on last year’s double CD titled UGK.

  56. caleb

    If Chandler were efficient, his high usage wouldn’t bother me. Last year, he was incredibly inefficient, and in preseason wasn’t much better.

    Someone said earlier that he could develop into an 18- or 20-ppg scorer. I agree: he could, and probably will – but that’s a pretty low bar. We all know 20-point scorers who are mediocre NBA players.

    This is not Wilson-bashing… he does some other things well, and I’m sure he’ll improve. But the mindset worries me. Ever since he first set foot on the court, last preseason, he has taken the approach of shooting first, last and always.

  57. Ted Nelson

    IS,

    Again, FG% doesn’t matter. There are a million source you can–and should–read on why. I’ll give you a little example:

    Player A: 2p…5-10,..3p…0-0,..FT…0-0,…FG%…50%,..pts…10
    Player B: 2p…2-6,…3p…2-4,..FT…5-5,…FG%…40%,..pts…15
    Player C: 2p…3-10,..3p…0-0,..FT…14-16,.FG%…30%,..pts…20

    The 3 all shot the same number of times (didn’t use the same number of possessions because of FTs), and the one with the highest FG% scored the most points. I made that up off the top of my head, but we could also use real stats from real games.

    http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2008/jh_ALL_TSP.htm

    Above is a link to the 2007-2008 stats page on this very website, with the players ranked in terms of TS%. You will find the breakdowns I posted recently: something like 12 of the top 25 are perimeter players and the # of players from each position in the top 30 is roughly equal. There are the Mikki Moore, but there are also the Kevin Martins.

    Here’s a link to basketball reference’s glossary, where you can find the equations for many advanced stats:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

    The formula for TS% is Points/(2*(FGA+0,44*FTA)) The stat creates a ratio that accounts for 3-pointers and FTs. It is basically points per possession, which expressed another way is called PSA: Pts/(FGA+0,44*FTA) and gives the number of points per possession used. (A more accurate number would probably account for TOs.)

    From this website (www.basketball-reference.com) you can enter any player who’s ever played in the NBA’s name and get their stats broken down into totals, per game, per 36 minutes, and “advanced.” Along with playoff stats, awards, and salaries. You can also search for teams.

    We are watching the same game, but analyzing it differently.

  58. Caleb

    p.s. One game aside, to consider Chandler on-track toward being a good player, I would set the bar around 52 TS% this year… figuring he will eventually bump it up a couple of points, over the next few years. Last year he was at 48.0.

    As far as actual FG%, it’s wildly optimistic to think he’ll approach 50% … he was at 43.8% last year.

  59. tastycakes

    Most excited that D’antoni had the balls to bench Marbury and Curry, two guys I hope aren’t on the team by the end of the year, and I hope he sticks with it and doesn’t “Larry Brown” the roster.

    Seriously, people want to see Marbs back in the ballgame? You folks enjoyed the last 5 years of his play? Get real.

    The objective of this team *this year* is not to win the maximum possible number of ballgames (not that either of those two bums would necessarily improve the Knicks win total), it is to build a solid foundation for a competitive future. Get it?

    Also, many pick Miami to make the playoffs this year, and they should be much improved over last year with a healthy Wade, Marion, and a couple of strong rookies in Beasley and Chalmers.

  60. RucKerP20

    thought that N8 played great last night and crawford played really good too. I think it’s going to be a fun season for the fans. We have a lot to look forward to, very exciting team now. Everybody should go to the 11/2 and 11/5 games against the Bucks and the Bobcats. nyknicks.com is giving away half priced tickets when you type in FACE. Also, there is a free tickets sweepstakes at http://www.msg.com/sweepstakes/knickstickets.html. Everybody should take advantage of the deals to watch our new look knicks play.

  61. NY3D

    For All of the Marbury haters, What happened last night was clearly personal. It had nothing to do with basketball. Marbury is by far the most skilled point guard/off gaurd whatever guard position you want to put him at on this team. Walsh, Dolan & D’antioni, know that Steph will Thrive in this uptempo ball moving offense, and with no team out there willing to make a trade for marbury because they know how much the knicks dont want him anyway. So therefore why play him allow him to put up solid numbers, i believe he would easily average 18pts 8 assist in this system. I have no problem with everyone hating on steph for all his pass behavior, but this was clearly a FU sent to Steph, because he was told that “IF” he comes into camp in shape and ready to play that he would. Its bad enough that his starting spot was GIVEN away to a BUM like Duhon (a poor mans Howard Eisley)….They gave Duhon the starting job, he didnt come in and out play Steph or Nate for that spot. Can someone explain to me how a player can be apart of the rotation the entire preseason, avreage 23minutes, and when the season begins 10 guys hit the floor, and that player never enters the game without a clear warning or anything… we all knew Shiity Curry would not play. The Knicks are a low class organization as well as a dum one…If you no longer want Steph on your ball club waive him. All you stupid ass fans that believe it’s okay he didnt play because they won are kidding yourselves, believe me it’s gonna be a long season with 81 more to go, so tell me what happens when marbury is not playing and the team is on a 5 game losing streak then what happens?? I bet it will be his fault also. Marbury for all he has done to be hated does not deserve to be a 12th man on any NBA roster.

  62. Rich P

    I can’t really think of any great rappers anywhere right now, maybe except for Weezy. Even past-their prime NYC rappers are better than anybody else out there. You can keep reppin’ UGK….but Pimp C is dead which kinda undermines your whole “great right now” argument. I’d still take Nas, all of Wu, Jigga, Mos before just about anyone. But if we’re being real real here, its MF Doom and it ain’t even close.

  63. Italian Stallion

    Ted,

    I agree that we are analysing the game differently.

    I understand the value of TS% in evaluating players, but I’m NOT looking at FG% in isolation either unless I think it’s the relevant stat to the point I am making.

    I also don’t want to try to combine FG%, FT%, and 3 pointers into one numeric rating.

    I am looking at each player’s lower level stats, trying to determine how and why he is achieving them, looking at his role on the team, how plays are developing etc… I often come to conclusions that are similar to what TS% suggests, but sometimes I am looking at details that might make me think something else.

    Caleb,

    “As far as actual FG%, it’s wildly optimistic to think he’ll approach 50% … he was at 43.8% last year.”

    This the kind of thing I am talking about above when I refer to my analysis.

    His FG% last year was 43.8%, but it improved in the last few weeks of the season and stayed at the higher level through pre season and yesterday. Some of us thought those last few weeks last year were the result of legitimate improvement instead of randomness. So we expected him to come out a better player this year and were right. IMO, his current FG% is probably in the upper 40% range. It will only take slight improvement in shooting or slightly better decision making for him to get it to 50%. Of course by the time he gets to 50% later this year his annual stats may show 47% or 48% and we’ll still disagree about it. LOL

  64. Owen

    “I also don’t want to try to combine FG%, FT%, and 3 pointers into one numeric rating. ”

    Dude….

    I mean honestly. Are you just trying to get my goat here?

  65. Ted Nelson

    One good point NY3D does make is that Chris Duhon was given the starting job when he signed. This whole thing does seem very, very bush league at this point.

    IS,

    I did not understand one thing you said in that reply, and you clearly do not understand what I’m saying.

  66. Thomas B.

    I’d like to agree with Rich P’s statements on rap. I know it makes me sound like one the old guys in the Pepperidge Farms cammercials but back in my day rappers knew how to rap. Not like the Young Jeezy, Little Reezy, George and Weezy whatever. Everyone knows rap reached perfection between 1994 and 1996. Its been a slow decline since then.

  67. Italian Stallion

    IS – you need to understand more about eFG & TS%. FG% is inaccurate, outdated, and ultimately meaningless.

    I probably need to explain what I am looking better.

    Maybe it’s a horseracing thing, but you can’t beat horseracing using stats alone even though they are a critical part of the task.

    Every situation is slightly different. So it requires the kind of analysis where you use the available stats as tools, but the profitable answer is the result of an analysis of details for which no stats exist.

    That’s what I’m trying to do with basketball. Of course I may not be any good at it. LOL But I’m never going to just look at things like PER, Adjusted +/-, Wins Per Game, or any other combination stats for final answers. I’m going to try to understand the details that go into the stats.

  68. Italian Stallion

    “I also don’t want to try to combine FG%, FT%, and 3 pointers into one numeric rating. ”
    Dude….
    I mean honestly. Are you just trying to get my goat here?

    I’m not sure what you mean.

    I am looking at FG%, FT%, AND

  69. Italian Stallion

    I did not understand one thing you said in that reply, and you clearly do not understand what I’m saying.

    Ted,

    I couldn’t have understood your point any better. It was expressed very well.

    I just think it’s possible to look at the lower level stats that make up a higher level one and reach a higher quality conclusion than a formula that tries to combine them because the details are not always the same, yet the formula treats them like they are.

  70. TDM

    Put me down for 40 wins.
    Trade Curry to GS for Al Harrington – one year less on his deal and a better fit (no pun) for Mike D’s system.

    To quote John “Hannibal” Smith: I love it when a plan comes together.

    From Sheridan’s article on ESPN today:

    “But the length of Curry’s stay could be brief. The Knicks are one of several teams that have contacted the Golden State Warriors about disgruntled forward Al Harrington, though the Warriors are said to be more interested in a package built around David Lee (16 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists against the Heat).

    One source told ESPN.com that Golden State’s best offers were coming from two Western Conference rivals, but that management would prefer to ship him to the East. A straight up Curry-for-Harrington deal would appear to fill needs for both clubs, although Golden State would be taking on an extra year of salary and making a risky investment in a player viewed by many around the league as too undriven emotionally to ever be an impact player on a contending team.

  71. cwod

    I actually just got into Public Enemy fairly recently. I guess their best stuff does sound dated, but I still enjoyed it.

    I don’t know how you want to classify them, but I’m a fan of Clipse.

    On the subject of Wilson Chandler, I love looking at TS% as much as the next KnickerBlogger reader, but I do think we should examine more closely an observation that a few people have mentioned: Chandler seemingly played a bunch of minutes on the Knicks’ offensively-challenged unit with Collins, Rose, etc. Could someone determine what impact this had, if any, on Chandler’s numbers?

  72. Frank

    Has it occurred to anyone that Mard beat out Steph fair and square?

    no. and it shouldn’t. Mardy Collins is a CBA-level player.

  73. Ted Nelson

    IS,

    Basketball is not horseracing. I don’t know the intricacies of horseracing but I can’t imagine that any flat out race is particularly comparable to basketball.

    FG% is not even really a component of eFG% or TS%. It combines two unlike things–2PAs and 3PAs–so it really tells you nothing. It also completely ignores FTAs. You don’t have to look for a stat that combines 2p, 3p, and FTs, it’s called points. And this is exactly my point, advanced stats use mathematics to explain what happens on the court, what leads to wins.

    It’s assumed in statistics that with enough samples the details start to disspear: Jamal Crawford is not as good a shooter as Reggie Miller, no matter how many stories he tells about how shooting late in the shot clock hurts his vagina. Over the years, the teammates, the coaches, the injuries, etc. you start to get a good idea of how good a player is. Every single situation in every single second of every single game is unique, but it’s pretty safe to assume that after several seasons in the league a 40% 3p shooter is a better 3p shooter than a 33% one.

    I never said to just accept an arbitrary number without thinking about what it means, but your points about FG%, Wilson Chandler taking outside shots, and perimeter shooters being necessarily less efficient are all incorrect.

  74. Captain Merlin

    I am not so much concerned about Mardy getting 10 minutes of pt as I am with Malik Rose gettting about the same. Hopefully when Gallo is in full working order this will be rectified and he will take on those extra minutes–also, the return of Jeffries could help that as well. Still, it’s never particularly enthusing knowing Malik Rose is on the court. I would take seeing him out there over seeing Curry or Marbury though.

  75. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    IS – why are you stubbornly sticking with FG%? Here’s an analogy you’ll understand. FG% is like jokey wins in horse racing. It’s a simple stat, but misses so much else involved.

    For instance Kyle Korver, Latrell Sprewell, Doug Christie, and Mo Pete all play the same position and have a career FG% of 42%. Yet they have different scoring efficiencies. FG% has told us nothing in this case. We could better depict how well they score by looking at TS%, eFG%, and PTS/min.

    If you’re going to note FG%, you might as well use something like pts/(the player’s uniform number). They’re equally useless.

  76. cwod

    Has it occurred to anyone that Mard beat out Steph fair and square?

    This is false. Mardy is borderline useless, except as an occasional defensive substitution. Last night, he drove to the basket, was fouled, and then proceeded to miss both FTs. It has also become clear that, when he’s in the game, Collins needs to play off the ball. He can’t be the primary ballhandler.

    Also, I looked at Chandler’s FGAs from last night. ESPN’s play-by-play seems to be missing two of his FGAs, but without those, this is the breakdown:

    w/o Rose, Collins, and Gallinari
    4-7

    w/ Rose, Collins, and/or Gallinari
    3-6

  77. Italian Stallion

    Ted,

    I’ll try to explain this from another direction, then we’ll just have to leave it because we are talking past each other again and we are wasting a lot of each other’s time.

    Here are two scenarios:

    1. David Lee gets an easy shot under the basket and scores.

    2. Koby Bryant gets the ball with 5 seconds left on the shot clock, gets double teamed, makes a brilliant athletic move, manages to get off a decent shot, and hits from 17 feet.

    Those two scores count the same in some statistics, but they are clearly different in some respects that aren’t measured in those same statistics.

    The goal is to get those easy shots, but sometimes the team can’t.

    “All else being equal”, the guy taking the tougher shots “because he’s capable” of and “has to” is the better player.

    There may be a stat somewhere that measures that, but TS% is points per possession factoring in 3 pointers and free throws. It doesn’t tell me anything about the difficulty of the shots and the players role on the team. eFG% includes 3 pointers, but doesn’t include the above either.

    So I might look at the box score details that make up a player’s TS% and eFG%, but I am also looking at the kinds of shots he is taking because of his role on the team in my attempt to assess his value, talent, and ability.

    There are an endless number of details that complicate the analysis.

    IMO, that’s why Wins Produced, PER, Adjusted +/-, Hollinger Ratings etc… disagree by so much at times even though they are all created by very bright guys attempting to do similar things. These are great rating and tools, but they aren’t perfect.

    I forget which one, but at least one of them had Jason Kidd being better than Chris Paul last year. IMO, that’s was a comical conclusion. Something was being overweighted or underweighted somewhere.

    I may not have the talent, insight, or experience in basketball analysis to do what I do in horseracing, but they are similar in some respects in the thinking.

  78. cwod

    And just as a follow-up to that crude breakdown, within this extremely small sample size, Chandler took three shots (2-3) in the just over three minutes that the Rose/Gallinari/Nate/Duhon unit was on the floor. During that span, Chandler and Gallinari were the only Knicks with FGAs.

  79. Italian Stallion

    IS – why are you stubbornly sticking with FG%? Here’s an analogy you’ll understand. FG% is like jokey wins in horse racing. It’s a simple stat, but misses so much else involved.
    For instance Kyle Korver, Latrell Sprewell, Doug Christie, and Mo Pete all play the same position and have a career FG% of 42%. Yet they have different scoring efficiencies. FG% has told us nothing in this case. We could better depict how well they score by looking at TS%, eFG%, and PTS/min.
    If you’re going to note FG%, you might as well use something like pts/(the player’s uniform number). They’re equally useless.

    I’m not just looking at FG%. I am looking at all the detailed level information that makes up the stats you are talking about in combination with observation to draw my conclusion.

  80. Owen

    I have said in the past, and will say it again, Lee may be the price we pay for salary cap freedom. But please, not for Harrington.

    As for the idea anyone would be dumb enough to trade for Curry straight up, it’s just not possible.

  81. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    Italian Stallion said during the day:
    “I said as long as he’s shooting around 50% we should be very pleased because part of his role is to take outside shots, including some 3 pointers.”…

    “Most teams shoot under 50%.”…

    “I don’t know where you get the idea that post players don’t tend to have a higher FG% than players whose role it is to shoot from the outside a lot. The all time FG% leaders and the leaders in any given year are typically guys that get most of their points in the paint.”…

    “Those high FG% are not always associated with terrific offensive skills. They are sometimes only associated with proximity to the basket. Many of those inside players can’t hit free throws or anything from the outside when available or “required”. The key word is “required”. Someone has to shoot from the outside from time to time. That will automatically translate into a lower FG% for that player because hoops under the basket are not always available.”…

    “I also don’t want to try to combine FG%, FT%, and 3 pointers into one numeric rating.”…

    “His FG% last year was 43.8%, but it improved in the last few weeks of the season and stayed at the higher level through pre season and yesterday. IMO, his current FG% is probably in the upper 40% range. It will only take slight improvement in shooting or slightly better decision making for him to get it to 50%. Of course by the time he gets to 50% later this year his annual stats may show 47% or 48% and we’ll still disagree about it.”…

    Italian Stallion said later in the day:
    “I’m not just looking at FG%.”

    I see. You’re not just looking FG%, you’re only looking at the ratio of a player’s made shots to their total shots.

  82. jon abbey

    Marbury is by far the most skilled point guard/off gaurd whatever guard position you want to put him at on this team.

    people need to stop saying this (not just you, I hear this way too much), because it really isn’t close to true anymore.

  83. BigBlueAL

    I’d like to agree with Rich P’s statements on rap. I know it makes me sound like one the old guys in the Pepperidge Farms cammercials but back in my day rappers knew how to rap. Not like the Young Jeezy, Little Reezy, George and Weezy whatever. Everyone knows rap reached perfection between 1994 and 1996. Its been a slow decline since then.

    Eminem is the best rapper alive and one of the best of all-time. But I agree the rest is pretty garbage. Nothing compared to Biggie etc., although unlike someone earlier I think Jay-Z is great.

    Eminem, Jay-Z and Biggie my 3 fave rappers of all-time. Plus I do love 50 Cent but understand lyrically he cant come close to the greats but he is pretty damn entertaining….

  84. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, Marbury isn’t any great shakes offensively anymore, but man, is he a lot better than Mardy Collins.

    That guy looks absolutely lost out there.

    Here’s how bad he looks – Marbury looks better on defense than Collins does on offense.

    That‘s how bad Collins is on offense.

  85. psulli81

    I really liked the ESPN article. “The Knicks are trying to build a package around their least valuable assest. The Warriors countered by trying to build a package around the Knick’s most valuable assest.” Thanks ESPN!

  86. cwod

    The post-SSOL Suns are an interesting bunch. They took down the Manu-less Spurs last night in a close game. Tonight, they just lost to the Hornets by 13. Suns had 16 assists to 24 turnovers. Nash had 7 turnovers by himself. The slower tempo might minimize their strengths?

  87. Corey

    There’s no “better than” where Marbury is concerned. Marbury is the basketball equivalent of a black hole; he plays no defense, he doesn’t rebound, he overdribbles, he chucks up prayers over two or three defenders, and he only passes as a last resort, usually with the shot clock winding down. He brings nothing to the table while taking away every valuable team dynamic. The only thing he could conceivably contribute is low-percentage scoring, which is very easily replaced by any other player on the team. Shit, if Jerome James put it up every time he touched the ball, he could probably shoot thirty percent from the floor. Mardy Collins may not look great, but at least he’s not bringing the offense to a halt, letting his man blow by him every time down the court, and alienating his teammates by chucking it up. Mardy doesn’t bring much to the table but he doesn’t take all that much off it either. Bottom line, the Knicks have a way better chance of winning if Marbury stays on the bench. The NBA isn’t a one-on-one tournament.

    Also: Ghostface!

  88. Ted Nelson

    IS,

    I don’t feel that I’ve been talking past you. You said that WC’s scoring efficiency was low Wednesday night because he shoots a lot from the outside, but 66% of his shots were in the paint. You said that perimeter players are at a necessary disadvantage for scoring efficiency, but this is just not bourn out in the data (at least for the most efficient scorers in the league, which is where I hope WC is at least aiming to end up). You said that if WC posts a FG% of 50% that’s all we should care about, but FG% isn’t even the best way to measure FG efficiency. I’ve been trying to directly address your points as they come up.

    ————————————————————

    Your new point that Kobe Bryant’s job is different from David Lee’s job is basically correct, and most people would recognize this difference when comparing the two. This does show up in the stats: besides eFG% and TS% (largely irrelevant in this case, I know but to comare David Lee with, say, Jamal Crawford I don’t think they are), there’s usage-rate or just plain old FGA/36. This is part of the reason why Hollinger includes usage in his formula for PER despite criticism that he puts too much importance in it. There are also “clutch” stats, shot selection, and shot clock usage stats available at 82games.com to measure the things you’re talking about.

    You have to at least quantify how many shots every player is taking in different situations. Last season, 12% of Kobe’s shots came in the last 4 seconds of the shot clock, while 11% of Lee’s shots came in the same time period. So, this is a bad example, but your point remains somewhat valid. I know you’ll probably say that all of Kobe’s were with 5 hands in his face and all of Lee’s wide open (there probably might be a little truth to it), but you also have to consider that Kobe played in a very good, fluid offense with other options (he’s never played in an offense outside the top 10 in the NBA, and the Lakers were the #4 offense in the league the season before he and Shaq even got there). I’d also assume the pace of an offense almost predicts the number of attempts necessary late in the clock, so it would be natural for teams like the Isiah-Knicks or Pistons take more shots late in the shot clock than the Suns or Warriors. However, this is largely by choice. If you have no defense and guys like Jamal and Zach who can’t hit the shots they “create” this is probably a bad strategy that you should move away from. Since players almost always shoot more efficiently early in the shot clock D’Antoni has designed his offense to take advantage, not sure if it will work on every team.
    Someone like Zach Randolph who used to hold on to the ball for 7 seconds, do a few ball fakes, then drible a few time before finally launching an ugly jumper with three hands in his face has no one but himself to blame (maybe his coach a little). It’s pretty much impossible for an outside observer to determine the motivation behind these decisions or to assign blame. If one player’s consistantly bad for years while another is consistantly good, that’s enough for me.

    I don’t think that bad medium/high-usage players are necessarily better than very good low/medium-usage players, or that the medium/high-usage player would be able to do the same things if there role was changed: ““All else being equal”, the guy taking the tougher shots “because he’s capable” of and “has to” is the better player.”
    You’re going to end up with some high, medium, and low usage players on every team. In each category some will be good and some will be bad (and everywhere in between).
    Since we’ve been focusing specifically on scoring efficiency, I looked at the TS% of the top 30, bottom 30, and middle-ish 31 in the league last season. Top: 55.83% (st.dev. 3.33), Bottom: 55.25% (st.dev. 5.31), and Middle: 54.03% (st.dev. 3.39).
    It could be an unrepresentative sample, but I think these findings are pretty logical. The highest usage players tend to be high-usage because they’re good–selection bias–and have the lowest standard deviation (in this sample anyway) precisely because they’re mostly good. In the middle you have some very good 2nd/3rd options (Dunleavy, Shaq, Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis), but the TS% may be the lowest because you have a large proportion of bad players shooting more than they should (whether because they “have” to or “want” to). In the bottom 30 you have the highest standard deviation (disperity) because you have both guys with low and/or eroding offensive skills and guys with strong shot selections and/or finishing skills around the basket.

    You seem to be implying that the ability any one given player has to succeed in one or a few situation(s) is more important than the probability that player will succeed over the course of all the relevant situations. Since the NBA requires playing such a long season and then several playoff series to win a title; as a fan, I’m more concerned with the overall performance. As a coach/GM I’d likely still be more concerned with the overall performance, but it would be my job to understand the “why?” and “how?” I personally also want to understand these things, but due to time and resource constraints I usually settle for the overall performance rather than just guessing based on the games I’ve watched.

    Breaking team stats down to the individual level is a difficult task, and at the moment there’s no right answer. There are partial answers, though. PER, WP48, Roland Rating are not perfect. However, to measure how efficiently a player used his offensive possessions (shots) you look at eFG% or TS%. Every “type” of player might not be 100% comparable, but across the 30 NBA teams you end up finding out who’s best at their given scoring role.
    Overall, players are fairly comparable because the ultimate goal of a team on offense is to score as many points as possible with the possessions it has. I think it’s an uphill battle to argue that missing shots or having a player whose role it is to score inefficiently is generally good for an offense, but go ahead and argue it if you wish.

  89. o_boogie

    “The post-SSOL Suns are an interesting bunch. They took down the Manu-less Spurs last night in a close game. Tonight, they just lost to the Hornets by 13. Suns had 16 assists to 24 turnovers. Nash had 7 turnovers by himself. The slower tempo might minimize their strengths?”

    i agree, it will be interesting to see how the suns turn out. i think they are in big trouble because their bench is real thin. hill, diaw and barbosa are excellent reserves, but considering the average age of the suns an injury is (sadly) inevitable. against the 2nd unit of the laker (farmer, odom, vujacic, walton, ariza) or the rockets (brooks, head, landry, hayes, and scola when battier returns). nash and stoudemire are skilled enough to create in the half court, but a slower pace wont allow nash to work his magic in transition. the only upside i see to porters system is the emphasis on defense and maybe the team will not be as tired come june due to less running.

  90. Owen

    “The post-SSOL Suns are an interesting bunch. They took down the Manu-less Spurs last night in a close game. Tonight, they just lost to the Hornets by 13. Suns had 16 assists to 24 turnovers. Nash had 7 turnovers by himself. The slower tempo might minimize their strengths?”

    I think they stink. One commentator asked Doug Collins if he thought they would reverse the Marion trade if they had the chance. Collins says, you can’t win without a big man in the West in the playoffs.

    What tripe.

    The Suns have Nash and Stoudemire, but they aren’t winning in the playoffs.

    It’s going to be very interesting to see how bad the Spurs will be without Manu, Barry, and Oberto. They still have Duncan, but I think they are going to really struggle.

  91. Duff Soviet Union

    Owen, when’s Manu coming back. If it’s not for a while, I wouldn’t be shocked if the Spurs miss the playoffs. That supporting cast around Duncan (and Tony Longoria to a lesser extent) has just vanished. Maybe Duncan will find out what it was like for Kevin Garnett a couple of years ago.

  92. djm13
    There are great MC’s from NYC currently, it’s just that their best work was in the past. LOL @ papoose.
    Anyway, saying DOug E Fresh is a third rate rapper might be true from an extremely literal sense, but can we please not call the man 1/2 responsible for La Di Da Di – possibly the pinnacle of hip hop history – a third rate rapper on principle alone? The man is a legendary beat boxer and embodies the essence of what made hip hop so good in its golden age.

    You’re right about the third rate comment. How about “way past his prime”?

    Works for me. And I just can’t live with myself if I don’t say that jon abbey’s opinion of hip hop is not one I align myself with. If you don’t think Illmatic was a masterpiece and that Nas had an incredible performance on it, then I don’t know what to say.

    Anyway, interesting to see how this offense plays against a more refined team in Philly. Not sure we match up real well with this team either. Iggy should be able to give Craw problems, we have no one to stop Elton and I seem to envision Lou Williams coming off the bench and lighting it up against us. Here’s to hoping I’m wrong.

  93. caleb

    Before the season I’d have picked the Suns to miss the playoffs… but yes, San Antonio is awfully thin and getting thinner. On the other hand, hard to say who gets that last spot.

    Lakers, Hornets, Jazz and Rockets look like the elite.

    Mavs and Blazers (even without Oden) look like playoff teams. I’d include San Antonio – don’t underestimate Parker – but they’re on thin ice. After that, I think Denver makes it, if they’re healthy and don’t make a crazy trade at the deadline… Suns are still in the mix, I guess. Clippers? Maybe. Golden State without Baron or Monta Ellis for 3 months? Eh.

    The pendulum has swung a long way back towards the East.

    on a tangent, the East-West differences are overblown – Even last year, it was a lot harder to make the playoffs in the west, but it didn’t make any difference in individual stats, or teams’ records – mathematically speaking, playing an Eastern schedule made less than two games difference in a won-loss record.

  94. BiggieSmalls

    IF G State insists on Lee being a part of the Curry for Harrington discussion Walsh should insist that Brandan Wright come to NYC.

  95. Owen

    Manu is supposed to be back in December….

    So, is D’Antoni’s honeymoon with the New York press over, Berman seems to take him to task for playing Starbury in preseason then benching him in front of the fans.

    http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8740428/D%27Antoni-curses-Garden-chant-for-Marbury

    “With some in the Garden crowd surprisingly chanting “We Want Steph” with 11:10 remaining in the fourth (others booed the chant), a stewing D’Antoni was caught on MSG Network cameras Wednesday in a tirade, mouthing:

    “You’ve got to be (bleeping) kidding me. You’ve got to be (bleeping) kidding me. What a bunch of (bleeps).”

    and…

    “D’Antoni never hinted during the preseason that Marbury’s spot in the rotation was in jeopardy and praised his performances. D’Antoni didn’t give advance warning to Marbury, letting him suffer the humiliation before his hometown crowd.

    D’Antoni could have known all along Marbury would not be in the rotation, but deceived him during preseason so he wouldn’t create a major distraction.

    D’Antoni denies this and says Mardy Collins’ solid preseason convinced D’Antoni to bench Marbury. D’Antoni said he felt Collins is better suited to handle a minor role than Marbury, who has been a malcontent in the past. D’Antoni said all players had a clean slate, but apparently it did not apply to Marbury.”

    Got to love the New York press….

  96. police clyde

    Jon Abbey

    You don’t think the boo generator’s, use of the word Struggling to describe Crawford after missing one shot 54 minutes in to the game unfair? You don’t think that was exaggeration. How about when he said to all the listeners on the opening game that the Heat has taken the knicks out of the game after 33 minutes and the knicks were only losing by one point. You didn’t find that funny? I am giving you specific times so that you can look it up. I can not be any more real than this. I am giving you information that would be very difficult to dispute.
    How about his praise “FOR THE BACK COURT MUSCLE Banks the heat player you don’t think that was a little excessive and one sided.
    I can’t explain it any better than I have, without up loading a video.

  97. Thomas B.

    “My point is not that NAS is what he once was, but even diminished, he is still the best thing out of NYC. ”
    no, Ghostface has taken shits that are more eloquent than Nas, but again, you fail to comprehend my point. my point was that there are no great rappers in NYC right now, which I’ve since amended because I forgot Ghostface. someone can be the best from a certain scene and still not be great in the grand scheme of things. you know, like the best Knick for instance. :)

    I cant believe I’m typing this, you are right Jon. Ghostface is better. I was digging through some old CDs (dating myself as everyone has music files now) and head to head I had to give Ghost the nod. Cherchez LaGhost hot, and the verse in Winter Warz is hot too.

  98. Ray

    I thought i came to the wrong website for a sec. Thought it was the rapper blogger?!? Lets see how they deal with Elton Brand and Iguodala tonight. Thaddeous Young seems to give the Knicks problems and so does Andre Miller. We are going to have to make the team turnover the ball with some good D. With Brand inside there are going to be some people in foul trouble. We can definitely run on Philly but we got to play some strong D. I hope Danillo gets some good minutes in. Im going to the game next Wednesday. Looking foward to seeing my man Larry Brown.

  99. jon abbey

    Jon Abbey
    You don’t think the boo generator’s, use of the word Struggling to describe Crawford after missing one shot 54 minutes in to the game unfair? You don’t think that was exaggeration. How about when he said to all the listeners on the opening game that the Heat has taken the knicks out of the game after 33 minutes and the knicks were only losing by one point. You didn’t find that funny? I am giving you specific times so that you can look it up. I can not be any more real than this. I am giving you information that would be very difficult to dispute.
    How about his praise “FOR THE BACK COURT MUSCLE Banks the heat player you don’t think that was a little excessive and one sided.
    I can’t explain it any better than I have, without up loading a video.

    I didn’t argue with you, and I don’t really care at all. Clyde is a mediocrity, but pretty much every sports announcer in every sport sucks. Clyde’s our mediocrity, I’m fine with him, especially since I fast forward through the games on DVR as much as possible.

  100. Thomas B.

    Steph deserves better than what the team is giving him right now. he came into camp in shape, with the right attitude, and ready to be a good member of the team. So much for fresh starts. The best thing Steph could do is to be the hardest worker in practice everyday, show up for every team meeting 15 minutes early, be the last one to leave the gym. As long as he is the role model, the team looks stupid for not playing him. Man if he is in practice everyday just punishing Duhon and Collins, that has got to demoralize the team becuase they see the best player is not getting run. If nothing else, he will be in great shape for another team.
    He could start on 10-12 teams right now. Boston, Miami, Pacers, Wizards, Magic, Wolves, Nuggets, Thunder, Warriors, Clippers (as a 2), Grizzlies, and Rockets.
    Karma is a strange thing. There will come a time this season when D’antoni looks down the bench and realizes that he needs Stephon. You cant count on all of the starters staying healty, and you know Mardy doesnt deal with presure well. At some point they will need what Stephon has to offer.

    I pulling for you Steph.

  101. cwod

    Yeah, Berman is a moron.

    I watched the Spurs-Suns game the other night. The Spurs looked awful. Parker and Duncan accounted for 2/3 of their points. Everyone else on the team was utterly lost. I could definitely see them missing the playoffs, but knowing them, I wouldn’t be surprised if they figure something out. On another note, watching that game required listening to Mark Jackson. Ugh.

    I agree, Owen, about Collins’ comment. We’ll see what those ‘experts’ are saying when the Suns and their new commitment to defense are getting swept in the first round of the playoffs, if they make it in at all.

  102. retropkid

    Feel bad for Steph? You have to be kiddding. The guy is a loser throughout his career, makes a zillion bucks, and has made it clear he wants ALL the money no matter what. So you want ALL the money, then take ALL the DNPs the Knicks have to give….The Knicks won without him, and he got in shape because it is his frickin’ job to be in shape, that’s not something to admire, it’s something to require!

  103. o_boogie

    “The pendulum has swung a long way back towards the East.”

    im not so sure about that. The celtics and cavs are the truth. orlando is still a pg short of being elite. philly needs outside shooting; good teams will run zone and they will not be able to score. detroit still has sheed, which means they will probably drag into the playoffs and forget how to turn on the intensity, just like the past 3 years. i am interested to see what toronto does, i have a mancrush on bosh and they may make a run, but are they championship calibre?

    on the other hand, the lakers look like they are unstoppable. if they can move odom for something nice at the trade deadline, that may make them even better. add in hornets and rockets and I think the top 3 teams in the west are dead even if not better than top-3 in the east.

    “not something to admire, it’s something to require!”

    well played. drop some knowledge on frazier with that one.

  104. foliveri

    Thomas B.:
    Steph is making $21 million this year. I’m quite certain he’s getting what he deserves. I feel no sadness for him getting benched. With his mouth, his play, and his attitude, he created this mess. Most of us screw up as he has and we lose everything. This dude earns $21 mill sitting in the bench. Whatever.

    —-

    Seriously? People are still writing about Clyde? Seriously? Seriously?
    A little OCD?
    The man has sat through years of futility. He is mediocre. His stilted speech patterns are a bit silly. He’s a character. Clyde has always been a character.

  105. police clyde

    Jon
    I hear what your saying. I guess I could put the radio on while the game is on to avoid hearing the boo generators one sided coverage, and hearing him trying to set the stage by bringing stuff from last year, that does not even apply with this system. It bothers me because I know that other people are being influence by his crap. I like for my son to be able to go out into the street wearing a knick hat, without other kids, who don’t know much about the game say that the knicks suck, based on something they heard for about twenty minutes, from the master boo generator himself. A large part of the fans actually take what he says as word. You might be right that many announcers are like that, but he’s the only one in New York. I have respect for every other commentator covering the knick game. The boo generator’s
    negative coverage will eventually affect the players and coach.
    He’s poison, that has to be removed. “The heat has taken the knick fans out of the game-Crawford is struggling” . What next!

  106. Conor

    Anybody else see this in the Post?

    D’Antoni’s blunt approach could get him into hot water now that he’s under the New York microscope. He already has ticked off Eddy Curry Eddy Curry for telling reporters he was out of the rotation before telling the player. The wisecracking D’Antoni also said when Curry missed the first day of training camp that it might be a blessing because he may have “dropped dead.” Curry has a heart arrhythmia.

  107. cwod

    Eddy Curry needs to toughen up and get in shape.

    Karma is a strange thing. There will come a time this season when D’antoni looks down the bench and realizes that he needs Stephon. You cant count on all of the starters staying healty, and you know Mardy doesnt deal with presure well. At some point they will need what Stephon has to offer.

    Will this moment of karmic payback coincide with D’Antoni remembering that this is basically a lost season, that any victories just fuel misguided 8th seed playoff aspirations? You can debate the logic of benching a reasonably talented malcontent who nevertheless came into camp in terrific shape, but to say that, at some point in the future, the Knicks will *need* what Marbury has to offer is a little silly. If he’s the difference between 30 wins and 34, does it really matter? Will anyone actually care? I don’t think I’ll lose much sleep over it, nor will D’Antoni. Maybe those additional losses will even help us draft a franchise point guard.

    More likely, D’Antoni will look down the bench at Marbury, have a brief pang of regret, and then remember that the Knicks aren’t going anywhere anyway. He might also think, “Why didn’t I just go to Chicago?”

    I guess my larger contention is that there will come a time this season when the Knicks drop any pretenses of being competitive in the here-and-now. Maybe it’ll happen when we dump Zach’s contract on someone, but I’m pretty sure it will happen. And by then, it won’t be like we need Marbury to salvage our chance at a quick playoff exit.

  108. Owen

    Conor – I posted Berman’s article on the previous thread.

    Gus and Walt are discussing the fact D’Antoni announced today that Marbury is inactive tonight and will be for the foreseeable future….

  109. Italian Stallion

    Ted,

    >You said that WC’s scoring efficiency was low Wednesday night because he shoots a lot from the outside, but 66% of his shots were in the paint.<

    I didn’t say that.

    I was talking about him in general. For example, he takes more outside shots than the local hero here, David Lee. :-)

    “You said that perimeter players are at a necessary disadvantage for scoring efficiency, but this is just not bourn out in the data (at least for the most efficient scorers in the league, which is where I hope WC is at least aiming to end up).”

    As far as I am concerned, even your data does suggests that perimeter players are at a disadvantage. It’s just not as extreme using %TS and eFG% as it is using FG%. However, as I’ve explained, there are differences between the types of shots players are taking even when they both count for 2 points or even 3 points. It’s the big guys that are taking most of the easiest shots. That’s why they also have a high FG%. IMO, %TS and eFG% do not account for those things properly either.

    You can add another stat to try to capture that (like usage), but after awhile you wind up with a set of information that is difficult to weigh because of the compexities and imperfections of each individual stat etc…

    That’s why my major point all along has been that it’s best to use all these stats as a tool and basis for analysis IN COMBINATION with visual observation of the REALITY of what’s going on on the court.

    “You said that if WC posts a FG% of 50% that’s all we should care about, but FG% isn’t even the best way to measure FG efficiency.”

    It’s obviously not the only thing we should care about, but given his current typical shot distribution during the games I’ve seen (all preseason and 1st real game), that would be satisfactory to me in the area of shooting. It may not satisify you because you may insist on looking at just eFG% and TS%, but I will be looking at both those, FG%, FT%, and watching the game so I understand what those stats are made up of in Chandler’s specific case vs. other players I might be comparing him to.

    We can put this to rest because it doesn’t matter to me if you agree with me or choose to analyze things differently and you aren’t going to convince me otherwise. All you and others can do is introduce to me another stat in my toolbox that I will use the same way.

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