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Tuesday, September 23, 2014

Has Wilson Chandler Arrived?

It’s expected for fans to have differing opinions on the same player. For instance some might find a scoring point guard to assist the offense with his production, while others might see him as a detriment for not including his teammates. A player who frequently flops might be seen as sacrificing his body for his team or could be viewed as one who is too weak to play tough physical defense. Young players are especially prone to having opposing traits applied to them, due to limited minutes they have played. Sometimes, one man’s franchise savior is another man’s bust.

For most of his young career, Wilson Chandler has been above average athletically. However during his first few seasons he’s shown little in terms of statistical achievement. Hence there are two different views on him. The first is of a physically gifted athlete who is primed for a long career. The second of a baller who fails to apply his athletic superiority into productivity. Given Chandler’s sub-par statistics his first three years, I’ve been in the latter category. Here is what I’ve said about him in the past:

One question that remains is how Chandler will develop. On the optimistic side, he did make strides in multiple areas in 2009. Chandler improved his free throw shooting (63.0% to 79.5%), three point shooting (30.0% to 32.8%), scoring (13.4 to 15.6pts/36), assists (1.7 to 2.2 ast/36) and fouls (4.4 to 3.3 pf/36). But these numbers are pedestrian. The young swingman doesn’t do anything great, and his rebounding, blocks, and steals are about what you’d expect from an average 6-8 small forward. His scoring volume is above average (15.6 pts/36) but his efficiency is below (48.0% eFG, 51.5 TS%). Perhaps that’s Chandler’s lot in the NBA: to be the generic player.

For Chandler to make strides and become a genuine NBA starter, he’ll need to make another step in his development. One area could be his three point shooting. Connecting once on every three attempts is too low especially for someone that’s likely to see a lot of attempts in D’Antoni’s system. But a more critical leap would be for Chandler to get to the line more often. Last year he was second to last on the team in FTM/FGA, a measure of a player’s ability to draw contact on the offensive end. Frequently when he gets the ball in the paint, he ends up with a turn around jumper, instead of making a strong move to the hoop. Chandler needs to summon “Ill-Will” when he’s within 6 of the basket.

Mike Kurylo, June 30th, 2009

According to Hoopdata, Chandler dramatically reduced the number of treys in favor for a trip to the rack. By taking more shots in the paint instead of behind the line Chandler’s TS% jumped almost 2 percentage points. Basically when Chandler would receive the ball for an open three he’d head fake then drive towards the hoop instead. On the one hand it’s good that this correction was made and Chandler is a better shooter, but on the other it’s not the kind of improvement you want from a 22 year old. In other words you could say that Wilson Chandler didn’t get better in 2010, but rather the coaching staff made him better.

A year later, the question still remains how Chandler will develop. I’ll give him credit for being able to make the change in his game to forsake the three ball. However if Wilson Chandler wants to remain an NBA starter, especially playing for downtown happy Mike D’Antoni, he’ll need to do much more than that.

Mike Kurylo, May 24th, 2010

However this year, Chandler has taken some solid steps forward in being a more productive player. I’ve highlighted the current season in orange (stats through the first 22 games).

Shooting Stats:

Season PER TS% eFG% G MP FGA 3PA FTA PTS 3P% FT%
2008 11.7 0.480 0.457 35 685 12.7 1.6 2.8 13.4 0.300 0.630
2009 12.9 0.515 0.481 82 2735 13.9 4.1 2.8 15.6 0.328 0.795
2010 13.7 0.534 0.502 65 2320 13.3 2.3 2.5 15.4 0.267 0.806
2011 18.0 0.562 0.523 22 717 15.2 5.3 3.5 18.8 0.349 0.829

Prior to this year Chandler has been below average with regards to efficiency. However this year Chandler’s overall efficiency (56.2% ts%) has spiked upwards, and is now above the league average (usually around 54% ts%). Last year, Chandler increased his efficiency by eschewing the long ball, but this year he’s improved that area to a respectable level (34.9% 3p%) and is now attempting a career high 5.3 threes per 36 minutes. Additionally he’s drawn contact more often as well (3.5 fta/36). This improved efficiency has given Chandler the highest volume scoring (18.8 pts/36) of his career as well.

However, scoring isn’t the only aspect that Chandler has made positive strides in.

Non-Shooting Stats

Season ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF
2008 2.0 4.7 6.7 1.7 0.8 0.8 1.4 4.4
2009 1.2 4.7 5.9 2.2 0.9 1.0 1.8 3.3
2010 1.4 4.0 5.4 2.1 0.7 0.8 1.7 2.9
2011 1.5 5.0 6.5 1.8 0.7 2.0 1.5 3.5

Chandler has also improved his shot blocking, doubling his rate. Although the increase in shooting can be attributed to his own development, this improvement is most likely a result of where he plays. In previous seasons Chandler has been primarily a shooting guard, but this year, he’s seen a majority of time at both forward spots. This change his given “Ill-Will” more time near the hoop which has resulted in more opportunities for blocking shots.

If Chandler can shoot three pointers at a decent rate, keep his efficiency above average, and turn back a fair amount of shots, then he’s going to have a good career in the NBA. However it’s important to remember that this is only a quarter of a season, and even a full year at this pace doesn’t mean that Chandler has arrived. Three point percentage is especially prone to fluctuation, and a regression there could put him back in the category of inefficient scorer. Consider that over the first three years of his career, Chandler appeared to be yet another athletically superior player who failed to grasp what actually wins games. From that perspective, then his current season is a good sign for future development.

273 comments on “Has Wilson Chandler Arrived?

  1. Frank O.

    WC has become an important player in this run.

    I have a question, tho:
    What do the Knicks do when Amare goes down, or has foul trouble?
    Yesterday, was instructive. Soon as Amare went out yesterday, a nine point lead went away.
    So, I ask, would that happen if the Knicks had another offensive force like Melo? I suspect not having to take so many tough shots, melo’s efficiency would improve.
    As good as WC is. As good as Gallo has played, and Fields and Felton, they wouldn’t be as effective without the big guy.
    It would be nice to have that second force.

    I’m not sure WC or Gallo can be that player in Amare’s absence.
    I’m not thrilled about trading for Melo. I don’t like the cost.
    As an FA, he’s great.
    But I see the importance of having another horse who can share the load.

  2. Frank O.

    One other point, teams are figuring out that you have to attack Amare and get him in foul trouble.
    It has two effects: he loses minutes; and he backs off defensively when he’s in trouble.

  3. Nick C.

    Nice breakdown. He really has stepped up his game hopefully he can sustain it. One quibble, you dismissed his blocks going up as being a product of his position, which certainly is true but I don’t think they are irrelevant. 2.0/36 is among the leaders in the entire NBA there are plenty of 4/5s that can’t do that so he shoudl get some credit for that.

    Frank as for that guy we can’t go thre posts without mentioning he was -12, worst on his team yesterday and IIRC in the game thread someone pointed out and early Denver run came while he was on the bench. Just sayin’ and this criticism comes hard for me considering I went to Syracuse.

  4. Nick C.

    One edit well two: first Mike great to see you look back at what you sadi as many have noted inability to budge from a positon can get exasperating.
    second: actually Shelden williams was -10 in 13 minutes.

  5. taggart4800

    I might be being really nieve here but surely in order for us to sign Melo as an FA we have to rescind our rights to chandler anyway…. Am I wrong?
    I think we should throw Eddy, Azu, Randolph or his pick and Chandler at Denver. That seems like a lot but in reality that is what we would have to give up at the end of the season.
    I hear both sides of the arguement regarding Melo but I think his strength lies in his ability to hit contested shots. Chandler is extremely frustrating when the other team has played good D and he has to find his own shot. This is Melo’s strength and the reason that, as much as I am not completely sold on him, I think we should move for him. This way we get the MLE next summer as well and can get another center or backup PG. The practicalities rather than Melo’s ability make this a no brainer. Sure it will be a shame to lose a guy like Chandler who has been great for us but he ain’t winning us a championship. Teams like the heat and boston play great D and Amare will get in foul trouble so we need another go-to guy and like it or not Melo is the best available. Paul’s knees are shot, Durant, LeBron, Wade and Bryant aren’t available.
    We have all seen Amare’s deficiencies but they are masked by his unbelievable strengths and I strongly believe that although Melo is not perfect he is pretty damn good, as good as Amare possibly. Anyway a deal is inevitable and giving up a player you would have to lose anyway is hardly a high price to pay.

  6. Abasi

    I think the best thing for the Knicks to do is to keep their core intact and wait until free agency to sign Melo. In the meantime, they can try to develop Randolph and Mozgov to combine into the missing big defensive presence in the paint. Then the task is much simpler: get a decent PG backup for Felton and add Melo (through free agency) to be the go-to guy when Amare is out.

    Chandler, Gallo, Fields, Felton, Mozgov, Randolph, Amare and Melo as the knicks core would bring at least 5 years of playoff ball to New York.

    Any trade for Melo that requires getting rid of Fields, Gallo or Chandler is very bad for the Knicks, because those players are the supporting cast Amare and Melo would need to shine in New York.

  7. Bruno Almeida

    Nice piece Mike, it’s impressive how much better Chandler looks this year, Amare and Felton and the whole change in the environment of the team have really helped them.

    I think he can sustain this type of production because we have Amare and Felton to be the go to guys when plays breakdown or in the end of quarters, so Will doesn’t have to force bad shots or to try and do something which he’s not suited to.

    Also, I don’t think we should turn this into another “what will happen with Carmelo” thread, that has been beaten to death… some people hate him and think we’ll be a 19 win team with him, some people think he’s the guy who’ll make us a contender, some think something in between, and that’s it.

  8. Nick C.

    <a href="#comment-Also, I don’t think we should turn this into another “what will happen with Carmelo” thread, that has been beaten to death… some people hate him and think we’ll be a 19 win team with him, some people think he’s the guy who’ll make us a contender, some think something in between, and that’s it.  (Quote)

    +1

  9. jon abbey

    at the risk of beating a dead horse even further, that’s why we need a forum with threads, because the Carmelo talk isn’t going to stop until at least February.

  10. DS

    Why doesn’t this post mention anything about Wilson’s 1-on-1 defense? I’d be interested to see some analysis in that dept. How does Will’s D this year compare to other years? Can you really skip D in evaluating him as a player?

    Also, his WS/48 thus far is more than double his career average. What would Mr. Berri say?

    I know you can’t get to everything. The points on his offense are prob. most poignant.

  11. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Well, he does have a new contract coming at the end of the season. That can, y’know, help a player get motivated.

    Ask Jerome James.

  12. JK47

    I was a pretty big skeptic of Wilson Chandler, but there’s no question he’s developed into a really useful player. He has improved in TS%, eFG%, 3PT%, FT%, FTA and BLK%, while increasing his usage and lowering his TO%.

    Part of this is just natural development– he’s 23 and has shown improvement in each of his NBA seasons. Another big part of it, of course, is the arrival of better teammates who are better at executing the offensive system. SSOL is flowing nicely, and Chandler is getting more easy transition buckets and smooth, in-rhythm 3-PT attempts. Plus now he doesn’t have to share the rock with Al Buckets.

  13. Mike Kurylo Post author

    JK47: I was a pretty big skeptic of Wilson Chandler, but there’s no question he’s developed into a really useful player.He has improved in TS%, eFG%, 3PT%, FT%, FTA and BLK%, while increasing his usage and lowering his TO%.Part of this is just natural development– he’s 23 and has shown improvement in each of his NBA seasons.Another big part of it, of course, is the arrival of better teammates who are better at executing the offensive system.SSOL is flowing nicely, and Chandler is getting more easy transition buckets and smooth, in-rhythm 3-PT attempts.Plus now he doesn’t have to share the rock with Al Buckets.  

    I think you can’t overlook his shift to forward, particularly power forward. Chandler isn’t a banger and when he gets into the paint more often than not he’ll use his speed and a finger roll to complete a drive. Hence he’s not particularly well suited to score against smaller/quicker players, especially when he’s not a threat from three. However that’s not true against bigger/slower guys. Add in a three point shot, and he’s got a nice little thing going for him.

  14. Nick C.

    Mike Kurylo: I think you can’t overlook his shift to forward, particularly power forward. Chandler isn’t a banger and when he gets into the paint more often than not he’ll use his speed and a finger roll to complete a drive. Hence he’s not particularly well suited to score against smaller/quicker players, especially when he’s not a threat from three. However that’s not true against bigger/slower guys. Add in a three point shot, and he’s got a nice little thing going for him.  (Quote)

    You think he was miscast as a 2G, to his detriment?? He didn’t seem liek a 2G to me, more of a 3/4. You infer an interesting point that ones stats and game even offensively can be shaped by position (similar but not really to batting order position in baseball)

  15. Spree8nyk8

    This isn’t the appropriate place for this but I am still in shock so bear with me. A while back I had some financial issues that caused me to have to move back home for awhile so I’m currently living at a house with my mom and her best friend Shelly. 4 months ago Shelly adopted a new born baby and the baby has had some health problems. They had to take the baby to the hospital last night because he has been having some swallowing issues and he didn’t seem like he was breathing right.

    This morning when I woke up I went to check on Jonathan and he was not breathing, I am a nurse and I was 100% sure that he was dead, but I started cpr and told shelly to call 911. EMS came and took him out and I waited here for my mother to get home so I could ride with her to the hospital so she wouldn’t be alone. When I got to the hospital I found out that he had pulled through, although at this point he is on a respirator. I’m still in shock because I didn’t think I had gotten him back. So anyway, for now for those of you that pray please keep Jonathan in your prayers.

    Thank you.

  16. Nick C.

    Spree8nyk8: This isn’t the appropriate place for this but I am still in shock so bear with me. A while back I had some financial issues that caused me to have to move back home for awhile so I’m currently living at a house with my mom and her best friend Shelly. 4 months ago Shelly adopted a new born baby and the baby has had some health problems. They had to take the baby to the hospital last night because he has been having some swallowing issues and he didn’t seem like he was breathing right.This morning when I woke up I went to check on Jonathan and he was not breathing, I am a nurse and I was 100% sure that he was dead, but I started cpr and told shelly to call 911. EMS came and took him out and I waited here for my mother to get home so I could ride with her to the hospital so she wouldn’t be alone. When I got to the hospital I found out that he had pulled through, although at this point he is on a respirator. I’m still in shock because I didn’t think I had gotten him back. So anyway, for now for those of you that pray please keep Jonathan in your prayers. Thank you.  (Quote)

    Wow!! Not much more I can type.

  17. Frank

    You know – watching Chandler play especially over the last month has made me wonder whether he might actually already be a better player for what this team needs than Carmelo. He’s obviously not as good a scorer as Melo but he’s quite good as a 2nd/3rd option scoring and is so versatile defensively. And he’ll probably come at 60% the price of Melo for a guy whose arrow looks to be pointing up. I can’t tell whether he’s a sell-high sort of guy right now, but it feels better to have some home-grown guys on the team than to go all Miami Thrice on the NBA.

  18. Frank O.

    Spree makes the save of the day!
    Hope the little one is doing better. Lucky he had you there. Fate is a funny thing.

  19. Frank O.

    I’m sorry if there are some that are tired of the Carmelo discussion, but I’m not sure I care.
    My view on this has changed largely because some well-meaning folks have made some strong arguments on both sides. I feel way better informed for the debate, and if you don’t like the discussion, you can scroll past. I’m cool with that.
    But I find it ridiculous to think you will talk about Chandler’s play and not get into the Carmelo discussion somewhat given they would largely play the same role and WC could be a trade pawn, especially since his contract is expiring.
    The other Frank made a very strong case for bringing Melo over during the last string. I think he also pointed out how Melo on Denver is required to take a lot of very tough shots. We saw that last night. But on the Knicks, his role would be entirely different, I suspect, and, frankly, I think some of the inefficiencies in his game would go away.
    Last night’s performance was illuminating in that WC was so much more efficient than Carmelo. But Melo had to take a lot of tough shots in the 4th, and he suffered for it. Indeed, the Knicks did a great job defending him.
    On the other hand, when Amare left the court for a prolonged period due to foul trouble, the Knicks lead evaporated.
    WC scores well when it comes in the flow of the game and when he’s not a focal point. But when he tries to force the play, or when he becomes the Knicks primary scorer, we have all seen how inefficient he can be.

    It’s another data point in considering whether bringing Melo over makes any sense.

    Now, I maintain I would prefer to see Melo as an FA rather than in a trade. But if the Knicks are to get another star-caliber player next year, I think they have to do with WC what they did with Lee, and trade him to get some value for him. And I suspect , if he continues his strong play, his trade value may never be as great as it will be in February.

  20. Frank O.

    Frank: You know – watching Chandler play especially over the last month has made me wonder whether he might actually already be a better player for what this team needs than Carmelo. He’s obviously not as good a scorer as Melo but he’s quite good as a 2nd/3rd option scoring and is so versatile defensively. And he’ll probably come at 60% the price of Melo for a guy whose arrow looks to be pointing up. I can’t tell whether he’s a sell-high sort of guy right now, but it feels better to have some home-grown guys on the team than to go all Miami Thrice on the NBA.  (Quote)

    Now you’re switching to the other side. :)
    I find these discussions very interesting. Again, I feel way better informed because of it.

  21. Bruno Almeida

    @23

    I too like the Carmelo discussions and have participated in most of them, I just don’t feel like every single thread should turn into “is Carmelo good or bad?”

    This is a post about WC and improved play, so it does make a lot of sense to talk about Carmelo in that perspective, but that can be done without turning this into a discussion that ignores the original subject (in this case, Chandler’s improvement).

  22. Frank O.

    Bruno Almeida: Curry is so pathetic, Mozgov seems to be half his weight on this video…and wow, all the best for the kid Spree, hope he gets better as soon as possible.  (Quote)

    Swear to god, Curry looks like some fat guy off the street.
    And for most of it, he seems far from the play.

    He makes tractor traylor look tiny

  23. villainx

    “On the other hand, when Amare left the court for a prolonged period due to foul trouble, the Knicks lead evaporated.”

    I think this is a pretty valid point, especially given so much hinges on Stoudemire’s health and presence. Are the other players really ready to step up, or has Stoudemire allowed most of the other players to play within their game?

    I’ve no opinion on Carmelo other than I do think he’s a great player and would obviously, taking cost out of the equation, be a difference maker. I wonder how much can be gleaned during the time when Iverson was with Denver, on how Carmelo plays with another superstar. I’m thinking not too much as Iverson’s takes so much on himself.

  24. Frank O.

    Bruno Almeida: @23I too like the Carmelo discussions and have participated in most of them, I just don’t feel like every single thread should turn into “is Carmelo good or bad?”This is a post about WC and improved play, so it does make a lot of sense to talk about Carmelo in that perspective, but that can be done without turning this into a discussion that ignores the original subject (in this case, Chandler’s improvement).  (Quote)

    That’s cool.
    But chandler’s improvement is a fact. Not really debatable, IMHO, but his improvement in the context of the Knicks future is where the discussion is at. It’s why whether WC has arrived or not is interesting.

    It creates a wonderful problem for the Knicks:
    - hold onto him and be happy that he fulfills an important role on a team that has shown vast improvement in the past few weeks alone, and an enormous improvement year over year;
    -use him in a trade to secure one of the most prolific scorers in the game; or
    - lose him next year because he’s unaffordable if you want another star player.

    It’s nice to have such problems. Indicative of just how much times have changed.

    And just for consistency sake, while I enjoyed the Curry video, certainly he has little to do with WC’s improvement…:)
    Just ribbing you.

  25. Bruno Almeida

    Yeah, you’re probably right Frank, there’s no way the Melo subject can be left out of any discussions after what he said yesterday.

    It is indicative that times are changing, and the franchise is finally on the way up.

    The Chandler discussion reminds me in a lot of ways of the discussion on Jeff Green’s role on Oklahoma City Thunder… he’s also a very talented, young player who’s inconsistent and mostly plays out of position (Jeff plays the 4, while Chandler is playing the 4 now and has played the 2 before).

    and both are RFAs next year, to make it even more similar.

  26. Frank O.

    Bruno Almeida: The Chandler discussion reminds me in a lot of ways of the discussion on Jeff Green’s role on Oklahoma City Thunder… he’s also a very talented, young player who’s inconsistent and mostly plays out of position (Jeff plays the 4, while Chandler is playing the 4 now and has played the 2 before.  (Quote)

    I was envious of OCT at the start of the season because I like so many of their young players, but I’m happy to say that feeling has passed. Green is, well, green.
    I think teams do an injustice to players that they miscast, or cast about.
    I think Jared Jeffries is screwed as a player because no one has ever found him a clear role, IMHO.

    What I love about the Knicks is D’Antoni has given people clear roles. We know who the go to guy is. We know who the number two is. We know who the pg is.
    We know Chandler will play PF when he shares the floor with Amare as center and SF when Amare is PF.
    Having a clear picture, and understanding what is expected has transformed this team.

    And, we often ignore defense, but Wilson is bening asked to do a lot of defense.
    He, Amare, Turiaf and Mosgov enable Knicks perimeter defenders to channel wingmen slashers toward the baseline where they can challenge and reject shots. Smart use of players and defensive schemes.

  27. Mike Kurylo Post author

    Spree8nyk8: This isn’t the appropriate place for this but I am still in shock so bear with me.A while back I had some financial issues that caused me to have to move back home for awhile so I’m currently living at a house with my mom and her best friend Shelly.4 months ago Shelly adopted a new born baby and the baby has had some health problems.They had to take the baby to the hospital last night because he has been having some swallowing issues and he didn’t seem like he was breathing right.This morning when I woke up I went to check on Jonathan and he was not breathing, I am a nurse and I was 100% sure that he was dead, but I started cpr and told shelly to call 911.EMS came and took him out and I waited here for my mother to get home so I could ride with her to the hospital so she wouldn’t be alone.When I got to the hospital I found out that he had pulled through, although at this point he is on a respirator.I’m still in shock because I didn’t think I had gotten him back.So anyway, for now for those of you that pray please keep Jonathan in your prayers.Thank you.  

    We’re talking about sports here, so a story like yours is obviously most important. Great work in the clutch, and when that little bugger is getting married – you make sure to tell him his first born better be named after you. Or Latrell Sprewell. :-)

  28. villainx

    The Chandler discussion reminds me in a lot of ways of the discussion on Jeff Green’s role on Oklahoma City Thunder… he’s also a very talented, young player who’s inconsistent and mostly plays out of position (Jeff plays the 4, while Chandler is playing the 4 now and has played the 2 before).

    I always liked Jeff Green, I think of him as a blue collar type of player with great skill and talent. I could be wrong or just my Knick’s glasses, but Green probably has played on a sustained higher level than Chandler. Or, I think of Chandler as still a work in progress.

  29. Bruno Almeida

    @32

    yeah, but Green has always been a starter and he’s absolutely terrible defensively, I watched OKC and the Hornets another day and he was destroyed by David West… they had do switch Durant to guard him because Green had no chance.

    but he’s a good player, for me he’d be a star on the right place, for example, if Utah gets him as a free agent once Kirilenko expires.

    I think WC and him have very similar skill sets, it might be interesting to see what kind of contracts they command next year.

  30. TheRant

    Frank O.: Swear to god, Curry looks like some fat guy off the street.
    And for most of it, he seems far from the play.

    Even worse, my brain is like a cash register calculating exactly how much Fat Eddy is charging the team for each slow, plodding walk up the court.

  31. JK47

    villainx: “On the other hand, when Amare left the court for a prolonged period due to foul trouble, the Knicks lead evaporated.”I think this is a pretty valid point, especially given so much hinges on Stoudemire’s health and presence. Are the other players really ready to step up, or has Stoudemire allowed most of the other players to play within their game?I’ve no opinion on Carmelo other than I do think he’s a great player and would obviously, taking cost out of the equation, be a difference maker. I wonder how much can be gleaned during the time when Iverson was with Denver, on how Carmelo plays with another superstar. I’m thinking not too much as Iverson’s takes so much on himself.  

    Iverson only played one full season in Denver– the 2007-2008 season. What was Melo’s play like that season?

    It was the most efficient season of his career. Career high TS% of .568. Career high eFG% of .511, with one of the lowest usage rates of his career.

  32. Nick C.

    JK47 are you inferring that coupled with a high usage “star” Melo’s shot selection improves ergo his percentages go up and he is no longer the “barely above league average high usage” player much bemoaned by some. One of the Franks linked to an article that had a similar conclusion or proposition from a different angle. It comes down to personal preference because it is unproveable one way or another. My preference is for young teams more or less built and growing up together so I prefer staying put and looking for a 5 and back-up PG. Others think differently. I’m just dying for the enless posts back and forth next year over Chris Paul, his knees, the effect of the NBA buying out his team, him v. Deron Williams, etc. I just can’t wait. :-)

  33. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Not sure if anyone can justify a max deal for a player on speculation that he may become a high efficiency player in a different system. That’s the kind of frightening, potentially-crippling gamble we’d expect from Isiah.

  34. bob cook

    Regarding Melo, I’m getting increasingly dubious that getting him is a good idea (recognizing that this depends on what we give up, yadda yadda).

    Here are some points:

    Us older fans remember when we got our mits on Walt Bellamy, an all star center and paired him with Willis Reed, still developing at that point. Twin towers. The team didn’t do much. Then we swapped Bellamy for Dubusschere and bango, we win a title. They were players of similar “value” (when you consider the premium accorded to big centers) but Debusschere was the piece we needed.

    And that script was re-run when we had Cartwright and Ewing. We got much better when we got Oakley.

    How come the Heat haven’t won all their games? There’s only one basketball, Wade and LeBron can’t both have it.

    So I view Melo as a wonderful shooter. Do we need another one of those? We’ve got shooters out the gazoo. And what if Azoo comes back? If either Randolph or Movgov figures out how to do the dirty work and center in the Turiaff style, I like what we’ve got now.

  35. Frank O.

    JK47: Iverson only played one full season in Denver– the 2007-2008 season. What was Melo’s play like that season?It was the most efficient season of his career. Career high TS% of .568. Career high eFG% of .511, with one of the lowest usage rates of his career.  (Quote)

    This would strengthen my theory that on the Knicks, with Amare and THE MAN, Melo would become a more efficient scorer because he wouldn’t have to be the guy taking all the tough shots.

    thanks, JK47

  36. Frank O.

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Not sure if anyone can justify a max deal for a player on speculation that he may become a high efficiency player in a different system. That’s the kind of frightening, potentially-crippling gamble we’d expect from Isiah.  (Quote)

    Just a little over the top there, cock jowels.
    I’m not quite certain Melo meets the Curry/James/Starbury standard.
    Aside from being far better than all three guys, there are signs that when his usage declines a bit and he has another star present, his efficiency improves.
    And, frankly, even with some of his inefficiencies, he’s still regarded as an elite player in the NBA.
    None of the Isiah signing were with absolute stars in their prime.
    Marbury came the closest and everyone knew he had a massive attitude problem and his teams never did well.

    Anyway, with all due respect, I call bull. :)

  37. Frank O.

    I think the Isiah slight works only in cases of a player who has no history of success, but so-called upside potential upon which an entire franchise’s future would depend.
    Melo ain’t that.

  38. Bruno Almeida

    Frank O.:
    This would strengthen my theory that on the Knicks, with Amare and THE MAN, Melo would become a more efficient scorer because he wouldn’t have to be the guy taking all the tough shots.thanks, JK47  

    And we keep talking about how Melo could become a more efficient shooter playing with Amare, but we tend to ignore the impact it would have on AMARE.

    if Amare is already very effective seeing double teams every night for an extended period, what would happen if he faced one man defense all game long? And how many open looks would be available for our perimeter guys? How many backdoor cuts for Fields?

    I see the problem with money allocation, but comparing it to Isiah is too much imo. The problem with Isiah’s allocation of money was that it was allocated on terrible and / or selfish players, Carmelo Anthony and Amare Stoudemire are MUCH better players (specially team players) than Stephon Marbury and Zach Randolph ever were, and we don’t have contracts like Jerome James’ and Jared Jeffries’ to cripple us.

    and if it doesn’t work out, get rid of Melo, I’m sure he would still be tradeable in 2012/2013, if the Nuggets managed to trade Iverson, everyone is tradeable.

  39. Frank O.

    bob cook: Regarding Melo, I’m getting increasingly dubious that getting him is a good idea (recognizing that this depends on what we give up, yadda yadda).Here are some points:Us older fans remember when we got our mits on Walt Bellamy, an all star center and paired him with Willis Reed, still developing at that point. Twin towers. The team didn’t do much. Then we swapped Bellamy for Dubusschere and bango, we win a title. They were players of similar “value” (when you consider the premium accorded to big centers) but Debusschere was the piece we needed.And that script was re-run when we had Cartwright and Ewing. We got much better when we got Oakley.How come the Heat haven’t won all their games? There’s only one basketball, Wade and LeBron can’t both have it.So I view Melo as a wonderful shooter. Do we need another one of those? We’ve got shooters out the gazoo. And what if Azoo comes back? If either Randolph or Movgov figures out how to do the dirty work and center in the Turiaff style, I like what we’ve got now.  (Quote)

    I like what we have now, too, but we aren’t going to pay WC $9 mi or $10 mil per year, which is what he very well may command next year…
    So I’d like to see the Knicks get Melo as an FA.

  40. Frank O.

    Frank O.: Just a little over the top there, cock jowels.I’m not quite certain Melo meets the Curry/James/Starbury standard.Aside from being far better than all three guys, there are signs that when his usage declines a bit and he has another star present, his efficiency improves.And, frankly, even with some of his inefficiencies, he’s still regarded as an elite player in the NBA.None of the Isiah signing were with absolute stars in their prime.Marbury came the closest and everyone knew he had a massive attitude problem and his teams never did well.Anyway, with all due respect, I call bull. :)  (Quote)

    Jowles…sorry

  41. Frank O.

    Maybe $9-$10 million per is too much for WC. But even $7 mil per is more, perhaps, than the Knicks want to pay.
    Although WC is getting 19 and 7 boards, with two blocks per 36, and those numbers appear to be climbing, with a TS% of .578 and eFG% of .544. He’s also shooting 83 percent from the stripe….
    Man, Mike K., he has improved. ;)

    He keeps this up and he could be $10 mil per year guy.

  42. Nick C.

    Was this quote not great from the NYT blog referencing the pick and roll between Felton and Chandler. Just a month or so ago Felton was maligned as a PnR PG now this from the “Newspaper of Record”

    “This sequence doesn’t flow smoothly without both the genuine threat of a Felton drive and Felton’s presence of mind to hit Chandler at the perfect time. Past Knicks point guards could typically do one or the other, but heady point guard play like this has made it possible for Chandler to contribute in ways he was not able to previously.”

  43. rohank

    just FYI, here’s Clyde’s take:

    “They need another star player,” Frazier said. “If they can get ‘Melo, that would be the key,” referring to Carmelo Anthony.

    But Frazier said that the Knicks would have to give up a lot to get Anthony and that losing players like Danilo Gallinari, Wilson Chandler and Landry Fields would set the team back.

  44. Frank O.

    This is a fascinatig explanation from Sheridan that I had not heard before about the maneuvering between the Knicks and Nugs:

    “Carmelo is under contract through next season, but he has an opt-out (actually an ETO, basically the same thing). So Carmelo is not considered an expiring contract, and he remains tradeable right up until June 30 if the Nuggets hang onto him past the deadline. Also, the extension that’s sitting on the table is good through June 30, too. This is a piece of leverage the Nuggets hold over the Knicks, because NY needs to make the trade by Feb. 24 in order to include Eddy Curry’s expiring contract in the deal. And you need the Curry money to make the salaries match.”

  45. nicos

    Mike Kurylo:
    I think you can’t overlook his shift to forward, particularly power forward. Chandler isn’t a banger and when he gets into the paint more often than not he’ll use his speed and a finger roll to complete a drive. Hence he’s not particularly well suited to score against smaller/quicker players, especially when he’s not a threat from three. However that’s not true against bigger/slower guys. Add in a three point shot, and he’s got a nice little thing going for him.  

    Very true, Mike. In the last 8 games where he’s been a starter at PF he’s averaged 20 ppg at a ridiculous 68% TS. It’s obviously a small sample size but as it’s almost 1/3 of the season to date those numbers account for a large part of the upswing in his numbers. He’s shooting 44% from 3 during that stretch which I doubt is sustainable but I don’t think there’s any question that his 3 point stroke is much improved- especially when he take them in rhythm. Of course, the downside of Chandler’s numbers is that they will make him very expensive to retain this summer- if continues at anywhere near the rate he’s been at as a starter for the rest of the season- let’s say he ends the season at 18.5ppg, 6.5rpg- somebody will shoot him a 5 yr, 45m (if not more) offer in hopes the Knicks won’t want to lose their cap space and let him go. The better he plays the more likely it is he’s gone- maybe in a sign & trade where he brings something in return but still gone.

  46. Z

    Spree8– way to come through. Hope the drama is over for you for a long time now!

    Honorable Cock Jowles– I appreciate your position as the resident WoW oracle, but you have to, at some point, acknowledge the difference between a Carmelo signing and the Isiah moves that set the franchise back.

    Isiah was working from a position of weakness, tens of millions of dollars over the cap. Instead of letting it bleed, he piled on bad contracts attached to players that other teams were trying to dump: Jalen Rose, Antonio Davis, Steve Francis, Malik Rose, Mo Taylor. Stephon, too, was a player that was available because no body else wanted him. Curry too.

    Carmelo is a player that other teams would happily trade for, even at a max contract. He is the kind of player that Isiah would have traded for, if he could have, but he never was able to get because of his own mismanagement. A mismanagement that Walsh corrected.

    There is really no precedent from the Isiah years similar to the Carmelo situation. Maybe the closest was Marbury, who was a high priced “star” itching to play in NY. But the Marbury trade could have looked much better in hindsight, had Isiah not made the other moves he’d made after it. If Stephon was brought in to play along side a player of Amar’e’s class, with young players filling out the roster, maybe Isiah’s legacy would look different today.

    But Phoenix was trying to dump Marbury. Denver doesn’t want to dump Carmelo, and if they did dump him, they’d have no shortage of takers. (And Stephon turned out to be insane. Carmelo, I haven’t met, but from reading the gossip pages, he doesn’t seem to have raped any interns yet).

    Carmelo may not be a great move for the Knicks, but to say it’s Isiah Thomas all over again just devalues all the good points you make.

  47. jaylamerique

    Frank O.: Maybe $9-$10 million per is too much for WC. But even $7 mil per is more, perhaps, than the Knicks want to pay.
    Although WC is getting 19 and 7 boards, with two blocks per 36, and those numbers appear to be climbing, with a TS% of .578 and eFG% of .544. He’s also shooting 83 percent from the stripe….
    Man, Mike K., he has improved. ;)He keeps this up and he could be $10 mil per year guy.  

    he is absolutely a 10 million dollar player if he continues you that up. Everyone gets overpaid in the nba so i wouldnt be suprised if he makes 12 million a year after this year

  48. villainx

    I know this is a Chandler thread, but for the Stoudemire watchers out there, how different has he been now that he’s on the Knicks or specifically Nash-less?

    I remember a lot of talk about how much he benefited from Nash. Has Felton and D’Antoni and rest of team help him recreate that comfort zone, or has Stoudemire adjusted or elevated his game? I’m sure it’s a bit of both, but that’s purely guessing.

  49. Frank

    Frank O.: This is a fascinatig explanation from Sheridan that I had not heard before about the maneuvering between the Knicks and Nugs:“Carmelo is under contract through next season, but he has an opt-out (actually an ETO, basically the same thing). So Carmelo is not considered an expiring contract, and he remains tradeable right up until June 30 if the Nuggets hang onto him past the deadline. Also, the extension that’s sitting on the table is good through June 30, too. This is a piece of leverage the Nuggets hold over the Knicks, because NY needs to make the trade by Feb. 24 in order to include Eddy Curry’s expiring contract in the deal. And you need the Curry money to make the salaries match.”  

    I’ve read that a couple times and still can’t figure out why that is any worse for us than any other team. I presume what he means is that Denver can trade him after the season to anyone who has salaries to match. But unless Denver gets another superstar in return, which seems unlikely, then what they want are contracts that expire at the end of this season. They don’t want mid-range guys that are under contract for 2-3-4 more years unless maybe they are on rookie scale contracts (like Favors etc.). I think the Nuggets’ leverage actually goes down at that point, because teams won’t even have the possible utility of Carmelo as a rental — all they will have is a guy who can opt out of his contract June 30. If he won’t sign an extension, he still holds all the leverage.

    I understand why Sheridan thinks the Knicks will try and make a deal — a bird in hand is always better than waiting for the uncertainty of the CBA and free agency. But there is no way in this world (unless the Knicks take a big nosedive during the next 2 months) that Walsh will give up Gallinari, Fields, Curry, and Randolph when a defensive 5 (Perkins?) is needed.

  50. Bruno Almeida

    @59

    I agree man, the only thing that can be taken out of this is that Melo would love to sign the extension (obviously, he’s not dumb) and be traded to the Knicks, so they would favor a trade.

    But that’s not news.

    @58

    Well, Amare has been showing leadership like he never has in his career… the leader on that Suns team was clearly Nash, but Amare seems to have matured a lot and is really enjoying the leader role.

    On the court, naturally he’s benefitting from a stretch of games against bad defenses that really can’t stop him, we can’t expect him to score 30+ against everyone, but he’s got a killer mid-range jumper now and he has always been incredible finishing at the rim with both hands.

    The Knicks aren’t forcing the pick and roll all the time like the Suns did, but when we go to it Felton seems to have adjusted pretty well, and Amare was always a beast rolling to the basket, specially now that his jumper looks much better.

  51. villainx

    But there is no way in this world (unless the Knicks take a big nosedive during the next 2 months) that Walsh will give up Gallinari, Fields, Curry, and Randolph when a defensive 5 (Perkins?) is needed.

    Sound of that, or the overall talk here, is that Melo’s addition isn’t really viewed, say if the Knicks maintain good play, as the missing piece that sustains a good playoff push.

    If the Knicks nosedive, there would be more than enough bad play to not make some of the plus pieces (Gallo, Chandler, Fields) as tough to see go.

    Or basically, how much is the talk about Melo for what it means to the Knicks this season?

  52. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    But the issue is that he’s overpaid for his past levels of production, and that his projected value is merely speculation based on his subjectively-ascertained ability. All of his numbers suggest this, not just the black-magic/voodoo of Dave Berri.

    Isiah’s hubris was that he traded for “high-ceiling” players like Curry and Crawford that he believed were underrated — players who hadn’t yet reached their potential. He incorrectly presumed that under the tutelage of Larry Brown (and then himself), they would become all-NBA players who would lead the Knicks back to the Finals. This kind of risk came not in 2nd round draft choices, but in max-contract and other bloated deals.

    What I argue here is that the statistics show Carmelo to be vastly overrated. Simply put, I’d hypothesize that his value is based on his success in college, which led to his being touted the best player after LeBron James, which led to his high draft slot, which led to his being given playing time from day 1, which led to high volume scoring and other per-game statistics, which led to undeserved end-of-season awards, which leads to a max contract salary. It’s a huge cycle of misappropriated resources.

    Am I arguing that he’s a bad player? Absolutely not. I’m arguing that he’s much closer to an average NBA SF than his future salary suggests, and that the hope that he’ll BECOME an elite player — a truly elite player, not a product of ESPN’s privileged morons — is exactly that: hope. The only convincing arguments that I’ve read seem to hold that Carmelo may, when surrounded by players like Amar’e and Felton, turn into a highly-efficient scorer who no longer feels the need to shoot over double teams or dribble into the box with four men around him. This is speculation. This is RISK.

    That doesn’t sound like Isiah?

  53. Brian Cronin

    Ouch, the Knicks have actually dropped in Hollinger’s rankings to #15 (but they’re effectively tied with #12, which is where they were last).

    But on Stein’s subjective rankings, they’re now in the top 10!!

  54. ltmurray

    Just balled it up with the Knicks on NBA 2K11. Chandler’s the 2nd best player on the team at 79 overall (Amare is an 86).

    But damn Anthony Randolph is a BEAST in that game. If only…

  55. villainx

    Jowles, sound like there is going to be differing opinions about “elite player.” Saying that Carmelo is only an average NBA SF is a bit extreme.

    The players you mentioned, Curry and Crawford, I don’t think they are/were close to whatever conception of average NBA players for their respective positions, let alone elite or all-NBA. But lumping Melo to that category is really buying in and standing firm to Carmelo being vastly overrated.

    The fact that Carmelo has have longer and more sustained track record of success, I don’t know, he could be overrated, but if so, it only would be the most top-tier group. An Isaiah move sounds more like over committing and over paying for players with only flashes of above average abilities.

    It sounds more like most of the folks here who want or believe Carmelo is a good player aren’t doing so blinded by his limitations.

  56. Bruno Almeida

    @63

    For someone who’s saying that Carmelo’s ability is analyzed subjectively, you’ve got a lot of subjectivity going on there, saying that his value is misread since his college days, 7 years ago…

    We’ve seen Carmelo do it at the highest levels, he was impressive in the Beijing Olympic Games, he was impressive in the playoffs when the Nuggets made a long run (and for the stats guys, Carmelo’s ORtg is higher during that run than Kobe’s last playoffs or Paul Pierce’s).

    That’s why people rate him as someone who could take the Knicks to the next step.

    And every elite team has to take gambles, the difference is that they get it right… or trading Al Jefferson, Delonte West, Gerald Green, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair and a bunch of picks for Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen was a guarantee that the Celtics would be NBA champions?

  57. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    But he puts up numbers like a SF who is only slightly above-average. His high usage rate suggests that he would improve a bit in a system in which he is not made to be the player who takes a majority of shots. So yes, I agree that he would improve in D’antoni’s system with Amar’e in the lane.

    But again, comparing him to Curry, Marbury, Crawford, et al. is only to show that they too were deemed by the front office as players who would thrive under different coaching staff and around different teammates.

    Committing $100M to a player based on that kind of speculation is foolish. When you sign LeBron, you say: I believe that LeBron will CONTINUE his level of production. When you sign Carmelo, you must say: I believe that Carmelo will IMPROVE his level of production.

    You must say that because his numbers are NOT VERY GOOD. This is indisputable. You can interpret the numbers to say that it’s because of his usage rate, etc., but his numbers suggest that he’s not a max player, and his lack of winning is certainly not due to the team assembled around him.

    Again, my position is that it would be irresponsible to commit that kind of money based on that kind of speculation. It is this speculation that I compare to the Isiah days.

    It may be extreme to say that Carmelo is an average SF, so I’m temper my phrasing a bit:

    Carmelo is an above-average SF who may benefit from a different system. As of this point, he has not demonstrated that he is in the top 20 players in the league, and thus, he does not deserve a five-year, $100M contract. It would be even more foolish to trade two high-efficiency, low-cost players, who have several years remaining on their rookie contracts, for Carmelo Anthony or a player of his production level, especially since they will be able to be resigned over the cap once their rookie contracts are up.

  58. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Bruno Almeida: @63For someone who’s saying that Carmelo’s ability is analyzed subjectively, you’ve got a lot of subjectivity going on there, saying that his value is misread since his college days, 7 years ago…

    Actually, when a player makes the Final Four, his draft placement is positively affected. This is not conjecture. I can link you to the peer-reviewed studies, if you wish.

    And to claim that draft position does not affect playing time (which does not affect scoring volume, which does not affect eventual salary) would be fallacious.

    I think I’m going to take a break from the board for a while. The stats are right there, but I can’t fight with these gut-feelings.

  59. JK47

    I posted this the other day at the end of a long thread, but I think it’s a good point, so I’ll post it here again.

    The 2009-2010 Nuggets ranked #3 in the NBA in offensive rating, despite featuring alleged “average SF” Carmelo Anthony as their go-to offensive player. Now, let’s pretend Carmelo was injured in that season and did not play a game. Does anyone believe that a team with Chauncey Billups, Nene, Kenyon Martin, JR Smith, Arron Afflalo and Chris Andersen getting the bulk of the minutes is going to rank anywhere near #3 in offensive rating? Absolutely not.

    This year they’re #6 in the NBA in offensive rating, despite the fact that Melo once again is obviously the centerpiece of the offense. This team actually added Al Buckets to the roster, are suffering from a .351 FG% from Chauncey Billups, and they’re STILL nearly a top 5 offense.

    If Melo is so bad, or “average” like people are saying, how in the name of bloody living hell do the Nuggets manage to have a far above-average offensive team? Sure, Nene and Arron Afflalo are playing really efficient ball. Their usage rates are 17.9 and 14.0 respectively. Good luck winning games with a team full of guys with usage rates like that.

  60. Z-man

    Spree, best of luck, in a way we’re all family here…

    To paraphrase Jon Abbey, we better get used to the idea that Melo is coming, it’s just a matter of when. He has incredible control over his destiny, and it all comes down to how much the $ means to him. I can only hope that he feels that taking less money as a UFA to sign with this team virtually intact is the way to go, he’ll make up the lost $ in fame and endorsements. I would rather not part with Gallo, Chandler, or Fields to get him; since Chandler is the most like him, I would reluctantly pick him first. I would not give up Fields, he’s a key piece to a championship team.

    Jon also mentioned that Melo is not untradeable at $20mil per (the way that Allan Houston or Steph was, for example. Melo is a sure first-ballot HOFer in his prime and will be for the next 4 years. The fifth year is moot; he’s an expiring contract. In the meantime, you still have MLE money, draft picks, and some other creative ways to fill out the roster.

    In a way, we are at the same crossroads that Boston was at a few years ago, when they went all in on KG and Allen to pair with Rondo and Pierce. They had a promising defensive center in Perkins and a bunch of MLE or worse players and rookies on the bench. Many thought that the Celts were crazy to make that deal, but they not only got a championship and a final appearance out of it, they are still going strong four years later, and that was after signing two max/near-max players who were definitely past their prime.

    While the pieces don’t match exactly, if the FA scenario plays out we would have an in-his-prime Amar’e (KG), and in-his-prime Melo (Pierce), a smart, tough, veteran PG in Felton (Allen) a young, athletic, talented, super-high b-ball IQ guy in Fields (Rondo) a promising young defensive center in Mozgov (Perkins) and either a super-versatile wing-man in Chandler or a 3-pt specialist with a decent all around game (Gallo.) And Randolph and/or picks?

  61. Bruno Almeida

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Actually, when a player makes the Final Four, his draft placement is positively affected. This is not conjecture. I can link you to the peer-reviewed studies, if you wish.And to claim that draft position does not affect playing time (which does not affect scoring volume, which does not affect eventual salary) would be fallacious.
    I think I’m going to take a break from the board for a while. The stats are right there, but I can’t fight with these gut-feelings.  

    Of course Melo’s play at college affected his draft position and play time, why wouldn’t it? he won a national championship in his only season at Cuse, for god’s sake, it’s not like he put a 22/10 for a terrible team and got drafted because he had potential.

    But why do you ignore me pointing out that Carmelo had a higher ORtg when the Nuggets went deep into the playoffs than Pierce or Kobe last year? That’s a stat.

    Are those two “overrated, mere above-average players who may benefit from a different system” too?

    Would the Lakers or the Celtics go anywhere near the finals without Kobe or Pierce? Of course no, just like those 2008-09 Nuggets could never do it without Carmelo, considering stats or no.

  62. d-mar

    I’m on the fence like others are as to breaking up this current team to bring in Melo, but this idea that he’s just an above average SF and basically just a great shooter is insane. Melo takes it to the hole as hard (and as successfully)as any player in the NBA, he’s actually very strong and finishes with guys draped on him. That’s a quality that you can’t measure by stats alone. The Nuggets do not make the playoffs year after year because of Nene and an aging Billups, they make it because they have a bonafide star, just like the Knicks now do.

  63. Bruno Almeida

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Well, if you’re asking if Kobe Bryant is overrated…Yes. Yes he is.  

    Ok man, forget it then, we’ve got different opinions, that’s all.

    I totally despise Kobe, but if he’s overrated, who else in the league isn’t?

    You can say he’s overrated because people tend to think he can move mountains, but he’s done it all in the league and has single-handedly won more titles than our entire franchise.

    If we had an overrated player that won 5 titles, that’d be ok with me (as long as it’s not Kobe)

  64. Brian Cronin

    And again, those of us who think adding Melo for over $20 million a year is a waste of resources are not even necessarily saying he is not a good player. I’m fine with saying he’s a good player, a better player than either WC or Gallo. However, if you are going to pay him $20 million a year (more, if he signs the extension), he makes no sense as the secondary scorer on your team. He’s not worth $20 million dollars period, but if he’s going to be your go-to guy, at least that’s a skill he has. You can have a decent offense centered around him as your main scorer. But you can have (and the Knicks have) a good offense centered around Amar’e Stoudemire (and, again, we all do agree that Amar’e is a better player than Melo, right? No one seriously thinks Melo is better, do they?), so why in the world would you spend over a third of your cap to improve what you’re already good at when the guy you’re adding is not going to be able to do what is really his only above-average skill (score in volume)? You’re going to pay Melo over a third of your salary cap to be a second option to Amar’e? How the heck does that make strategic sense?

    To use the only other recent example I can think of when a star joined another star in the middle of the season, when the Lakers added Pau Gasol, they added a highly efficient scorer who was good at a lot of other things – someone who complimented the Lakers’ volume scorer (hell, he’s probably better than the Lakers’ volume scorer).

    Melo does not compliment Amar’e – he is just a back-up scorer if Amar’e is in foul trouble/not in the game. He will also never be a better player than Amar’e, and yet he’s going to get paid more money than Amar’e, while only improving the Knicks in the category of “guy who can score if Amar’e is in foul trouble/not in the game”? How does that make sense?

  65. Brian Cronin

    You can say he’s overrated because people tend to think he can move mountains, but he’s done it all in the league and has single-handedly won more titles than our entire franchise.

    True, but only if by “single-handedly” you mean “not single-handedly at all.” Dude was the second-best player on his team in four of the five titles he won, and you could make an argument for the fifth, as well (Gasol was clearly better than him this last Finals, and was at least very close to as good as Kobe in 2009, too).

  66. Bruno Almeida

    Brian Cronin: but only if by “single-handedly” you mean “not single-handedly at all.” Brian Cronin

    (Quot

    Of course Kobe had wonderful supporting casts (and was the 2nd guy when Shaq was there).

    But whatever, I’m not trying to convince anyone, just saying what I think.

    I’ve always thought Carmelo was a little overrated, but you guys underrate him incredibly.

    I’d love to know who’s a good player in the NBA now, LeBron James? Or is he overrated too?

  67. tastycakes

    Kobe is great, but still overrated. He took absolutely horrid teams to the playoffs before Gasol arrived, but he’s never gone anywhere in the playoffs without significant help (much like most other great players).

    The “overrated” part comes from the hyperbole which ranks him as one of the greatest ever. Of course, it is hard to totally ignore five rings.

    I also believe that Melo is a Top 20 player in the NBA, and that he does not make a good complement for the Top 20 player we already have (as Brian Cronin just argued).

  68. Brian Cronin

    I’d love to know who’s a good player in the NBA now, LeBron James? Or is he overrated too?

    Basically, that’s the problem. Lebron James is such a high standard, and yet the media wants to act like guys like Kobe and Carmelo are at the same level as Lebron, and they’re just not. That’s not a bad thing. Kobe Bryant is amazing. He’s much better than Melo. Kobe is legitimately close to guys like Lebron and Jordan, but he’s not at their level.

    But the media has turned this into a “if you say Kobe is not as good as Lebron, you’re insulting him,” which is absurd. Guys like Lebron and Jordan are rare breeds. It is not a bad thing to not be as good as them.

    Melo, meanwhile, is not near Kobe’s level, and yet he gets treated like he is. And when Kobe is treated as “single-handedly winning titles,” well, you can imagine how difficult it is to get a realistic idea of how good Melo is.

  69. BigBlueAL

    Bruno Almeida:
    Of course Kobe had wonderful supporting casts (and was the 2nd guy when Shaq was there).But whatever, I’m not trying to convince anyone, just saying what I think.I’ve always thought Carmelo was a little overrated, but you guys underrate him incredibly.I’d love to know who’s a good player in the NBA now, LeBron James? Or is he overrated too?  

    According to Dave Berri the Birdman Chris Anderson is the best player in the NBA. lol

  70. tastycakes

    I just hope the ‘bockers keep winning. They stay above .600 near the trade deadline, I’m doubtful the front office will mess with success.

    I have to wait two more days for the next game? ARGH

  71. BigBlueAL

    I must say it is real annoying when people try to compare Kobe to Jordan. Kobe is not anywhere near Jordan’s level its a joke. His advanced stats are ridiculous, even more so if you take away his 2 years with the Wizards.

  72. Bruno Almeida

    @81

    I’m sorry if the way I wrote it bothered you so much, when I wrote “single-handedly winning titles” I mean he, alone, has 5 rings, while our franchise has 2.

    not that he won them all by himself, I’m not that stupid.

    James is way better than everyone else, but Carmelo is, in my opinion, a top 10 guy.

    I’d take James, Wade, Kobe, Nowitzki, Howard, Durant, Paul, Deron and Amare ahead of him, and I’d put him together with Gasol for that 10th place.

  73. JK47

    We can’t have LeBron James, so we have to try to compete with whatever else is out there. Having two of the top 15 or so players in the league seems like a good start to me. Hoarding a bunch of cap space that we’re never going to spend seems like a pretty dumb idea.

    We all seem to want a great center who blocks shots, rebounds and plays great defense, but this type of player is not available. What are we supposed to do? Wait for Dwight Howard to become a free agent? Spend our cap space on Marc Gasol? Hope that Timofey Mozgov learns to catch the basketball or that Anthony Randolph figures out that he’s not a point guard?

    Or should we acquire a consensus top 15 player who is in his age 26 season and who actually wants to play here?

  74. bugsy

    Here’s a nugget from Hardwood Paroxysm on Magic’s recend woes:

    “The three point shooting has been down a touch. The Magic shot 37.5% from beyond the arc last year, compared to just 35.9% this season. Vince Carter, Quentin Richardson, and J.J. Reddick are each shooting below their career averages from deep (something one would expect to even out over the long run). I don’t think there are too many red flags with regards to their long-range shooting. The team is attempting about as many threes per possession as last year (0.31 vs. 0.35), and 86% of their made three pointers are assisted (compared to 84% last year). The peripheral three point numbers have all held steady, a great sign for Magic fans. Additionally, the Magic still rank in the league’s top five in overall floor percentage (eFG%).

    The primary culprits have actually been an increased tendency to turn the ball over and the slightly lower frequency with which they’ve gotten to the line. So far this year, the Magic have turned the ball over on 15.3% of their possessions, which is the second worst mark in the East and third in the league. And while Jameer Nelson has been turning it over a touch more than we’re used to, the real issue is the ball handling of Chris Duhon. Duhon has turned it over almost once every three possessions; toss in the fact that he’s playing more than 20 minutes a night, and the impact is readily noticeable. Of his 37 turnovers, 26 have come via stolen or bad passes.”

  75. Brian Cronin

    Or should we acquire a consensus top 15 player who is in his age 26 season and who actually wants to play here?

    In what consensus is Melo a Top 15 player in the NBA? A consensus of Sportscenter anchors? I sure don’t think he’s one of the Top 15 players in the NBA. I think he’s a good player, but not that good.

  76. Z

    Brian Cronin: You’re going to pay Melo over a third of your salary cap to be a second option to Amar’e? How the heck does that make strategic sense?   

    Brian– you make good points, and I don’t disagree that Anthony’s price-per-production is astonishingly high. But the “strategic sense” is that every good team has at least two max contracts. The Lakers, the Celtics, and the Jazz have two. The Magic and Heat have three each. The Spurs and Mavs almost have three each. And the Thunder will as soon as Westbrook gets extended. So the logic is clear. Not only CAN you win with 60% of your cap going to two players, it’s really the ONLY way to win. (As long as the cap remains soft, that is… there’s a whole side-issue to trading for Carmelo that revolves around a hard cap and other changes to the CBA when play resumes after next summer).

  77. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I’d rather have Gasol than Carmelo. We might actually have a shot at winning 55 games with Gasol.

  78. Bruno Almeida

    Z:
    Brian– you make good points, and I don’t disagree that Anthony’s price-per-production is astonishingly high. But the “strategic sense” is that every good team has at least two max contracts. The Lakers, the Celtics, and the Jazz have two. The Magic and Heat have three each. The Spurs and Mavs almost have three each. And the Thunder will as soon as Westbrook gets extended. So the logic is clear. Not only CAN you win with 60% of your cap going to two players, it’s really the ONLY way to win. (As long as the cap remains soft, that is… there’s a whole side-issue to trading for Carmelo that revolves around a hard cap and other changes to the CBA when play resumes after next summer).  

    Every elite team has to take risks, it’s part of building a winning team.

    Did the Celtics KNOW they would win a title when they traded their entire team for KG and Allen? of course not, but they pulled the trigger and it paid off.

    From all the winning teams this past decade, only the Spurs were built through the draft, all others took gambles and they worked out.

  79. Z

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Isiah’s hubris was that he traded for “high-ceiling” players like Curry and Crawford that he believed were underrated… This is RISK.That doesn’t sound like Isiah?   

    Honorable C.J.– Isiah didn’t obtain Curry because he was a high-ceiling player that he thought was under rated. He obtained him because he was the only player available and he wanted to make additions. If Tim Duncan had been available that summer, Isiah would have traded for him instead. Curry was a bad move because Isiah gave up good assets for a flawed player that NO ONE else wanted. And he knew he’d never unload him because he signed an uninsured contract. What exactly are the similarities between Curry in 2005 and Carmelo in 2011? Maybe the bidding against ourselves part, but we can’t make that judgment until a deal goes down. Curry and Anthony, as players, aren’t similar, and the degree of risk with Anthony is 1000x less.

    “his numbers are NOT VERY GOOD. This is indisputable. You can interpret the numbers to say that it’s because of his usage rate, etc., but his numbers suggest that he’s not a max player.”

    Stats ignore perceived value. There is real value in perceived value. Amar’e, for example, has real value similar to David Lee. But his perceived value is astronomically higher, and it’s the only reason guys like Anthony and Chris Paul are even in the Knicks conversations. That perceived value is worth $. Chris Paul may take a $6 million pay cut to play with Amar’e and Carmelo. He may not take a pay cut to play with Amar’e and Wilson Chandler.

    Again, not saying Carmelo makes the Knicks a championship contender. But there’s a good chance you are missing some of the possibilities, and there was a lot of argument last summer that Amar’e wasn’t worth it. It’s hard to take that argument seriously right now.

  80. art vandelay

    Whether you are for or against an in-season Melo trade, I think the most likely scenario is that one will occur around the trade deadline…the other thing I believe most of us can agree on is that we wouldn’t want to relinquish more than eddy’s 400 lb. corpse, AR and 1 of WC, Gallo and Fields. So my question is the following: is there a consensus on which of the 3 we would prefer to give up? As much as I would love to say I think the knicks will just trade AR, eddy and bill walker for melo…I can’t see that realistically happening…so maybe WC is the one who should go, as we will need solid 3-pt shooting to back up melo and STAT (gallo is the most reliable bomber of the 3)…not sure, though.

  81. Brian Cronin

    Not only CAN you win with 60% of your cap going to two players, it’s really the ONLY way to win.

    Nope. No other good team devotes 60% of their cap to two players. Heck, the Knicks would only be as low as 60% if they trade for Melo without trading Chandler, as they can go over the cap to extend Chandler, so the Knicks would be devoting 60% of their salary cap (that’s presuming Chandler gets $10 million). If that doesn’t happen, it would be two-thirds of their cap.

    No other teams is even close to spending that much of their cap on two players (the Magic are the closest – they devote roughly 40% of their salary cap to their two highest paid players).

    On top of that…

    The Heat would be spending less for their Big Three than the Knicks would be spending for Melo and Amar’e.

    The Lakers would be spending the same for Kobe and Gasol as the Knicks would be for Melo and Amar’e.

    The Spurs would be spending barely more for their Big Three than the Knicks would be spending for Melo and Amar’e.

    The Celtics would be spending barely more for their Big Three than the Knicks would be spending for Melo and Amar’e.

    It does not make any sense.

  82. art vandelay

    Also, for those of you who think it is a given that we could just pluck Marc Gasol away from Memphis, they seem pretty committed to matching any offer that goes his way from what I have read. They have not offered any extension to Zach Randolph in anticipation of that and apparently they are actively shopping Thabeet. Clearly Gasol is their Center of the future. Also, we all just assumed last year that Rudy Gay would be a Knick fall-back option and I believe he was the first player to re-up with his former squad, the Grizzlies. Given all this evidence, I would say the greatest likelihood is that he stays in Memphis even if we signed him to an offer sheet.

  83. Brian Cronin

    Also, we all just assumed last year that Rudy Gay would be a Knick fall-back option

    Oh man, thank goodness that didn’t happen. That was my #1 worst fear of the offseason.

  84. Bruno Almeida

    @97

    well, Kobe and Melo are both inefficient, overrated wing players, and Gasol and Stoudemire are legit bigs…

    just kidding, I’ll go watch the Giants now, game is ugly so far.

  85. JK47

    art vandelay: Also, for those of you who think it is a given that we could just pluck Marc Gasol away from Memphis, they seem pretty committed to matching any offer that goes his way from what I have read. They have not offered any extension to Zach Randolph in anticipation of that and apparently they are actively shopping Thabeet. Clearly Gasol is their Center of the future. Also, we all just assumed last year that Rudy Gay would be a Knick fall-back option and I believe he was the first player to re-up with his former squad, the Grizzlies. Given all this evidence, I would say the greatest likelihood is that he stays in Memphis even if we signed him to an offer sheet.  

    Damn, for a minute there I thought we were gonna have Amar’e Stoudemire plus the Dave Berri Low Usage All-Star team here.

    Every guy on the team would have a .600 TS%! We’d never miss a shot!

  86. Z

    Brian Cronin:
    Nope. No other good team devotes 60% of their cap to two players.   

    Brian, I don’t understand how you can make this statement. The cap is $58 million. The Lakers devote $43 million to two players. That is 74% of their cap. All the teams I mentioned devote over 60% of their cap to two players. A few teams devote 90% of their cap space to three players. These teams are all the best teams in the league. I don’t see how you can dispute it.

    Because the cap is soft, it doesn’t really matter what % of it you are spending on individual players. What matters is that the supporting pieces are cheap and/or movable. Under the current CBA (moot, I know) we’d actually gain flexibility from adding a max contract at the deadline.

  87. Robert Silverman

    Z:
    The “strategic sense” is that every good team has at least two max contracts. The Lakers, the Celtics, and the Jazz have two. The Magic and Heat have three each. The Spurs and Mavs almost have three each. And the Thunder will as soon as Westbrook gets extended. So the logic is clear.   

    No. The “logic” isn’t clear. The question isn’t “should the Nix have two max guys?” It’s, “Is Melo the guy to get?”

    The Lakers have two, but Kobe’s the alpha dog/volume shooter and Gasol can rebound, defend, pass and score in the low-post. The Celts three also divide their talents (KG’s the defender/rebounder, Pierce the go-to-guy, and Allen’s [still] the best catch and shoot 2 in the league).

    The other teams? For the Magic, Lewis’ contract is what’s KEEPING them from getting better. They’d give him away for an expiring if they could and Carter is in his last year. Durant and Wetbrook work because one’s a PG and the other’s Kevin Freaking Durant.

    The Spurs are so good because Manu and Tony AREN’T close to max guys (in fact, you could argue that Manu’s given the Spurs the best per-dollar production in the league this side of LeBron) – it’s that fact specifically that allows them to accumulate talent around Duncan.

    Yes, the Heat have three, but the fact that Wade and LeBron’s talents are redundant has been a season-long struggle for that team. And it’s clear that they overpaid Bosh, leaving that team w/no depth and/or size.

    So again, if you sign Melo, (questions of how “great” he may or may not be) what does he bring the Knicks that would mesh well/elevate their roster. Amar’e’s the go-to guy on this team. Bringing in a SECOND one wouldn’t make them better and could make them worse. It’s Marbury and Francis all over again (although with much better players)

  88. Robert Silverman

    Z:
    Brian, I don’t understand how you can make this statement. The cap is $58 million. The Lakers devote $43 million to two players. That is 74% of their cap.

    The Lakers’ total salary this year is $106 million b/c they’re over the cap. 43/106 = 41%. So yeah, you could say they’re spending 74% of their cap on Kobe/Gasol or you could just as logically say that they’re spending all of their cap space on everyone but Kobe/Gasol. It’s an arbitrary distinction.

  89. JK47

    “Yes, the Heat have three, but the fact that Wade and LeBron’s talents are redundant has been a season-long struggle for that team. And it’s clear that they overpaid Bosh, leaving that team w/no depth and/or size.”

    Let us all pity the struggling, undersized Miami Heat, who are the current #2 seed in the conference and have the #2 defensive rating and #5 offensive rating in the NBA. Oh, and who are #1 in SRS and have blown out eight consecutive opponents by double digits. I wouldn’t want to be like them at all.

  90. Brian Cronin

    I’m not knocking the Heat.

    Again, they’re spending less for their Big Three than the Knicks would be paying to Melo and Amar’e (and Melo is worse than Wade and Lebron).

    Doesn’t make sense.

  91. Bruno Almeida

    @103

    Marbury and Francis were two players that essentially played the same position, were selfish and neither was at the level of either Amare or Melo, in my opinion.

    Melo and Amare play different positions, and both can be willing passers if they want, they have the talent… it would be up to the coaching staff to create offensive schemes to incorporate both in the offense to their best abilities.

  92. Robert Silverman

    JK47: “Yes, the Heat have three, but the fact that Wade and LeBron’s talents are redundant has been a season-long struggle for that team. And it’s clear that they overpaid Bosh, leaving that team w/no depth and/or size.”Let us all pity the struggling, undersized Miami Heat, who are the current #2 seed in the conference and have the #2 defensive rating and #5 offensive rating in the NBA.Oh, and who are #1 in SRS and have blown out eight consecutive opponents by double digits.I wouldn’t want to be like them at all.  

    It’s not pity. Before the season, folks wondered if they’d win 70 games. They’re barely playing .600 ball. They’ve underwhelmed, w/o a doubt.

    And in the 8 game streak, they’ve beaten teams w/a combined record of 70-110 or so (kinda like the Knicks!).

    Look, if you have LeBron, you’re going to be a good team even if you surround him w/ 4 average guys (look at the Cavs the last 7 years). But if you watch the Heat play, Wade takes over and then LeBron does, but neither of them makes the other better b/c their skills don’t complement one another. And Bosh looks utterly lost.

  93. art vandelay

    They are somewhat redundant as they play same position, but we also need to consider that they also play in a system that does not in the least bit take full advantage of their skill sets. Amare and Melo in 7SOL or whatever variation of 7SOL they currently are playing would greater utilize their abilities I believe.

  94. BigBlueAL

    Whatever the Knicks do at least the team will be better than any team they have had in the last 10 years. lol

  95. Brian Cronin

    And yeah, Lebron and Wade are not particularly compatible either. But if the price for getting the best player in the NBA is also pairing him with a not-so-compatible player (who is also much, much better than Melo) while they’re all playing at reduced salaries, well, then, you obviously do that.

    If Lebron James said he would have signed with the Knicks if they signed Rudy Gay, I’d be all for it.

    However, if Rudy Gay wants to sign with you after you already signed Lebron James, you don’t do it as Rudy Gay is massively overrated and is not particularly compatible with Lebron James and would take up way too much of your cap.

    Similarly, if you have Amar’e Stoudemire, a highly-efficient volume scorer, you do not give a not-particularly-efficient volume scorer and pay him more money than Amar’e!

    Now, this is totally different if Melo chooses to sign with the Knicks next season. He wouldn’t be making as much money and it wouldn’t cost the Knicks multiple young players, so whatever.

  96. Bruno Almeida

    BigBlueAL: Whatever the Knicks do at least the team will be better than any team they have had in the last 10 years.lol  

    Yeah, we sometimes forget how wretched some of those teams were, my god.

    it’s such a relief that “would Melo turn us into a contender” is the biggest issue right now lol

  97. JK47

    @108

    I really hope you’re right, but I fear the that the Heat are going to be a very, very tough team to beat, even with their supposedly uncomplimentary players. I mean, #5 in offense, #2 in defense. The numbers don’t lie. It may have taken them a bit to figure it out but they’re crushing teams pretty mercilessly and are starting to look like the smug juggernaut we all feared before the season started.

  98. Bruno Almeida

    JK47: @108I really hope you’re right, but I fear the that the Heat are going to be a very, very tough team to beat, even with their supposedly uncomplimentary players.I mean, #5 in offense, #2 in defense.The numbers don’t lie.It may have taken them a bit to figure it out but they’re crushing teams pretty mercilessly and are starting to look like the smug juggernaut we all feared before the season started.  

    what kinda kills Miami is that they have struggled through a pretty bad schedule, they’re 21 in strength of schedule according to the ESPN rankings.

    but they have so much talent, those guys will eventually figure out how to be better… I have no idea if they’ll ever win a title, but LeBron is just too good for his team to keep struggling against every good team they face.

  99. Abasi

    This Melo debate is VERY enlightening – in the sense that it exposes the tremendous amount of insecurity some of the fans have about the current team’s true capability. Now, don’t get me wrong: the fears may or may not be completely justified. We won’t know until the knicks have faced every other NBA team at least once.

    I think the best course of action is to wait until we can objectively determine how good the current roster is – I have a feeling the lack of interior defense and the lack of a substitute PG will be far more problematic that Carmelo’s absence.

    I’m all for signing Carmelo at any time as long as none of the core players (Chandler, Gallo, Fields) is given away. If that’s not possible, I think patience is the best course of action: give the entire season to developing Mosgov and Randolph as the defensive help and concentrate on signing Carmelo as a free agent and getting a backup PG.

    To me, the most valuable contribution Carmelo would make to the Knicks, if signed, is as insurance against Amare getting hurt or being forced to play long minutes (risking injury) because, while the support cast is excellent, there is not a real go-to guy when Amare is out of the game.

  100. Brian Cronin

    To me, the most valuable contribution Carmelo would make to the Knicks, if signed, is as insurance against Amare getting hurt or being forced to play long minutes (risking injury) because, while the support cast is excellent, there is not a real go-to guy when Amare is out of the game.

    I totally agree. I just don’t think that use (which clearly does have its value) is worth paying a guy the same salary as the main guy (more, actually).

    And as for the trades with Denver, the thing is that there is no way they will ever, ever make a trade with the Knicks that does not involve getting a guy who could contribute this season as well as picks for the future. They are going to be a playoff team this year, and for them to give up on a key part of their playoff team, they want to have someone who can play this year. The only way they get that from the Knicks is if the Knicks include Gallo or WC.

  101. Bruno Almeida

    The optimal thing would be to wait until free agency, but I’m scared that Walsh might go for it and trade Fields, which would be terrible imo.

  102. art vandelay

    No way knicks get melo via in-season trade without giving up at least 1 of gallo/chandler/fields in my opinion….also, the notion of developing mozgov and AR, while excellent in theory, I don’t see much of it happening in practice….d’antoni seems to have little to no faith in either guy at this point….and given that he didn’t play them throughout a VERY easy stretch of the season against weak opposition leads me to believe it is highly unlikely now that the upcoming brutal stretch is upon us that he will yield to playing them (except in extraordinary situation if necessary….e.g. against big, long teams perhaps like Boston or Orlando)….if anything he has been tightening the rotation….whereby 7 guys are playing, and really only TD getting significant minutes off the bench….really this so-called development I only see occurring sometime in mid-to-late january and probably only if we struggle badly against these top teams coming up, which none of us wants to actually see occur.

  103. Spree8nyk8

    Just wanted to thank everyone for their thoughts and prayers. Means a lot. I wish I had good news but it’s not. Jonathan has very little brain activity and is surviving on life support. He is expected to pass in 24-72 hours. I really don’t have words right now, but I wanted to put an update.

    Thank you once again.

  104. Frank O.

    Active leaders in advanced stats:
    - TS%, Amare (1), Nash (2), Wade (27), Lebron (28), Kobe (32). Carmelo isn’t in the top 50.

    - eFG% O’Neil (1), Howard (2), Lee (5), Amare (6), Wade (42). Carmelo isn’t in the top 50.

    - PER, Lebron (1), O’Neal (2), Wade (3), Bryant (7), Amare (10), Anthony (21).

    - Win shares, O’Neal (1), Bryant (5), James (11), Wade (26), Amare (28). Anthony doesn’t make top 50.

  105. Frank O.

    Spree8nyk8: Just wanted to thank everyone for their thoughts and prayers.Means a lot.I wish I had good news but it’s not.Jonathan has very little brain activity and is surviving on life support.He is expected to pass in 24-72 hours.I really don’t have words right now, but I wanted to put an update.Thank you once again.  

    Oh shit. Spree, so, so sorry.
    Very sad.
    Gotta hug my boys.

  106. MozgovZombie

    Ok, Ive read this site for sooo long and have learned so much from the regular posters. You have changed how i understand the game. A BIG THANK YOU!!!
    Anyways, this next week determines the Knicks course of action (which, to keep it relevant, involves WC’s future with the team since he has proven to be the best tradeable asset- he is occaisionally incredible this season) since they play the eastern elites- celtics and heat. If the Knicks continue to will their way to victory then no WC trade- dont mess with a good thing and hope to sign Melo this summer. But if they get dominated, like Amare in foul trouble/against Nene (and nene isnt anywhere near Howard…nuggets owned the inside the 4th) then something has to happen, like adding a second option (Melo) or adding a dominant big man (not a current option). I love WC but you have to do the trade if its Curry, Azu, Randolph, WC and whatever 2nd rounders we have to give. WC can be replaced by what the Knicks have and will gain by adding Melo. At least Gallo will be assigned to simply shooting threes (but he does draw fouls by driving sometimes, as ugly as it looks).
    Melo is a legit scorer- he can shoot and drive from anywhere. He adds more than losing WC detracts.

  107. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    All I hear is speculation.

    “Carmelo’s really talented, so he’s GOT to get better in this system with these players.”

    Still sounds like a $100M gamble to me.

  108. Bruno Almeida

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: All I hear is speculation.
    “Carmelo’s really talented, so he’s GOT to get better in this system with these players.”Still sounds like a $100M gamble to me.  

    It is a gamble, me and other posters think it’s a good one, you and others think it’s a bad one.

    I don’t believe stats tell everything, but we’ll see who’s right soon enough.

    I hope I’m right, considering that there’s a BIG probability that he’ll go to New York, but I’ve been wrong many, many times in my life.

  109. MozgovZombie

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: All I hear is speculation. “Carmelo’s really talented, so he’s GOT to get better in this system with these players.”Still sounds like a $100M gamble to me.  (Quote)

    Yep thats why I feel this next week is an important barometer. If they can hang with (not even “beat”-just hang with!) the celtics and heat, then they are as viable in the east as anyone since they will continue to improve and gel (Felton is probably the best value player in the league in the ‘biggest FA season ever’). Even if they sign Chandler as a RFA without acquiring Melo, what can they add that doesnt put them over while vastly improving them? To be honest, im genuinly dumb in this category, im not just being purposely confrontational.
    Aside from Melo, who else is there up for ‘auction’ during this year in his role? Coming up, the only stars are CP4 and Deron- to be honest, im happy with Felton/Amare/Melo… with maybe losing WC if we do Melo as a FA (he’s dumb if he accepts that situation). Maybe Im overrating Felton after watching Duhon, but Felton is damn good, but i think he should/could penetrate more.

  110. ess-dog

    Very sad news Spree. I hope there is a miracle left for your family.

    Trying to catch up here. You’ve all done some good work.
    The key to me at this point (this point meaning that it looks likely that we’ll get Melo eventually) is whether we’ll be able to sign CP3 in 2012 if we get Melo.
    Looking back at the 08-09 Celts, it’s not that likely that we’ll ever approach those original three, but a “big three” of CP3-Melo-Amare really is the closest we could possibly get (unless Gallo or Felton just go Hulk all of a sudden.)
    Can anyone smarter than me do the math and figure out if this is logistically possible?

  111. Bruno Almeida

    well, there are some interesting free agents for next year, but the CBA situation really makes it all uncertain, we don’t even know for sure that there will be a 2011-2012 season yet.

  112. Bruno Almeida

    ess-dog: Very sad news Spree.I hope there is a miracle left for your family.Trying to catch up here. You’ve all done some good work.
    The key to me at this point (this point meaning that it looks likely that we’ll get Melo eventually) is whether we’ll be able to sign CP3 in 2012 if we get Melo.
    Looking back at the 08-09 Celts, it’s not that likely that we’ll ever approach those original three, but a “big three” of CP3-Melo-Amare really is the closest we could possibly get (unless Gallo or Felton just go Hulk all of a sudden.)
    Can anyone smarter than me do the math and figure out if this is logistically possible?  

    we can’t be sure ess, some people say there will be a hard cap, others say that there will be tweaks to the system we have now…

    but I’d say it’s highly unprobable we get CP3 if we give Melo a max under this CBA (him signing an extension then coming via trade)… if Melo comes via free agency, it depends again on the new terms.

    I think Felton and Gallinari both expire in 2012, so we might have cap room for something.

  113. MozgovZombie

    ess-dog: (unless Gallo or Felton just go Hulk all of a sudden.)

    Im saying that Felton/Amare/Melo is just as good. Felton is in his prime and can create on the drive and on defense. He is an experienced vet with a true playmaker (Amare) and role-players (Gallo, WC, Fields). We need a backup PG but thats MLE territory i think but Felton doesnt draw many fouls and is endurant.
    Yep, CP3 is awesome, but can we anticipate getting max players to accept underpay?

  114. alsep73

    Terrible news, Spree. Your family’s in my thoughts.

    As for Melo, I agree that the ideal is to wait until free agency, sign him then and then in theory trade whatever non-Curry assets we might have used to trade for him to shore up other areas of weakness (C and/or backup PG). I really hope Donnie can show patience here. I fear that Dolan may be too hungry for a star after striking out on LeBron, though.

  115. art vandelay

    If they do eventually land Melo (hopefully at the right price due to Donnie’s patience), I can’t wait to hear Isiah in interviews claim Eddy Curry was the key to the deal or simply try to convince us that zeke was somehow behind Melo wanting to play in NYC.

  116. Ben R

    My thoughts are with you Spree, I’m so sorry.

    The biggest problem I see is exactly what Brian said in #77 Melo is redundant with Amare here. It’s like asking if the Hornets should add Deron Williams.
    Is he a great player? Yes
    Would he make them better? Yes
    Would he provide insurance for Paul in case of injury and foul trouble? Yes
    Would he be a second star? Yes
    Would he put them over the hump? No
    Would he be worth investing 20 mil and filling their cap for the next 5 years? No

    Amare and Melo might play different positions but they cannot effectively play off one another. Melo is not a good enough spot up shooter to really take advantage of Amare’s double teams and Amare’s talent would be wasted as simply a person for Melo to drop it off to on drives.
    Would they be bad together? No, but they would be less then the sum of their individual parts.

    Let’s say Amare is worth 25 wins and Melo is worth 20 (These numbers are totally arbitrary). They will get paid according to that but if together they are only worth 35 wins you are paying for 10 wins you’re not getting. It would make alot more sense to pay for a player that is worth 10 wins and pair him with amare and get the same results at less money. Teams have to fit together and Melo does not fit that well on this team as currently constructed.

  117. Z

    Robert Silverman: It’s an arbitrary distinction.  

    It’s not arbitrary, as long as there is a soft cap. Brian’s point was that adding Carmelo (ie a second max contract to the payroll) was a recipe for disaster, when in reality, there are many good teams, including championship teams, that have two max players on their team. What is irrelevant is how much of the cap % is given to two players.

    I understand the “Carmelo is over rated” arguments. What I don’t understand is the “Carmelo will ruin our cap flexibility” argument. Cap space is for spending, and you should use it to buy the best players available. If there’s someone better, then I agree, don’t spend it on him. But I think the Chandler at $10 mil vs. Anthony at $18 mil sounds a lot like the Lee vs. Amar’e debates from last summer. It doesn’t matter how far over the cap you go if you are buying the best players. The Lakers and Celtics are good examples. The top 4 payrolls are 4 of the top 6 teams.

    Donnie Walsh has put us in position to be financially flexible going forward even if we add a second max. If we are over the cap in 2012, and Paul or Deron is pulling a Carmelo, Walsh will have $13 million in expiring contracts (Felton, Turiaf, and Walker). Plus Mozgov is non-guaranteed, adding another $4 million in flexibility.

    So, there really is a lot of reason to spend Eddy Curry’s contract on a long term piece before it expires. There is a financial possibility to adding Paul or Deron to an Amar’e-Carmelo core. But they would have to force it, a la Carmelo right now. And without Carmelo, maybe they wouldn’t. I think that is the big picture Walsh is looking at.

  118. Resounding Rebounding

    Getting away from the whole Melo debate, I still think this team’s biggest need is a big man. What do you guys think of Javale McGee of the Wizards and what do you think it would take to pull off a trade for him?

  119. Doug

    Resounding Rebounding: Getting away from the whole Melo debate, I still think this team’s biggest need is a big man. What do you guys think of Javale McGee of the Wizards and what do you think it would take to pull off a trade for him?  

    Probably too much. I can’t see the Wizards getting rid of him unless they’re blown away.

  120. Resounding Rebounding

    Doug: Probably too much. I can’t see the Wizards getting rid of him unless they’re blown away.  (Quote)

    Certainly we’d have to give them value but I find it dubious that they’d have to be blown away. Although he was just put back in the starting lineup, he was recently taken out and put on the bench by Flip Saunders because of what he deemed his lagging production. He’s also been critical in the press of McGee on a few occasions. Before this season started, if someone had proposed a straight up trade of Anthony Randolph for Javale Mcgee I don`t think anyone would have said that was a crazy trade. Now obviously the value of the two has gone in different directions but I still think Randolph has value in the eyes of many GMs in the league and I think Randolph can be the focal point of a trade for McGee. Although, admittingly I don`t know what Ernie Grunsfeld thinks of Randolph nor am I sure what additional players we could give up without giving up too much.

  121. massive

    Really sorry to hear about that Spree, I send my condolences.

    I really don’t think that Carmelo Anthony is the answer here. I’d rather let Gallo have the spot long-term and hope he can develop into a 20 point scorer. Gallo has the 2nd lowest turnover rate in the NBA, is top 5 in Offensive Rating, and #4 in Free Throw %. He’s also hovering around 40% from deep (I think he’s at 37% now), and has a TS above .600. I don’t see why we need to replace this kind of efficiency with a less efficient player who would make 7x the salary. We already have our franchise guy. We should look to add either Tyson Chandler, Kendrick Perkins, or Nene this off season along with a player like J-Rich. That would be a good way to use the cap space. Resigning Will seems like a good idea, too.

    Some injured Buckeyes who could help our cause (if they return to form, which indeed seems very unlikely) though would be Michael Redd and Greg Oden. Can you imagine how good it would be to have pre-injury Michael Redd and early 09-10 Greg Oden on this team? Too bad it won’t happen.

  122. Brian Cronin

    It’s not arbitrary, as long as there is a soft cap. Brian’s point was that adding Carmelo (ie a second max contract to the payroll) was a recipe for disaster, when in reality, there are many good teams, including championship teams, that have two max players on their team. What is irrelevant is how much of the cap % is given to two players.

    Of course it is relevant. As I said, no good team devotes 60% of their payroll to two players. None.

    So if you’re going to be the only team that spends 60% of your payroll on two players, the second best guy best be pretty darn important to your team, because you are not going to then get another big guy. So you’re basically locked into that team (plus mid-level exceptions, of course) as your team for the next five-six years.

    Carmelo does not fit that bill.

    Again, the Knicks would be paying the same amount of money to Melo and Amar’e as the Lakers pay Kobe and Gasol, the Heat pay Lebron, Wade and Bosh, the Celtics pay Garnett, Pierce and Allen, the Spurs pay Duncan, Manu and Parker.

    The only vaguely similar case is the Magic, who are paying Howard and Lewis roughly the same (although less), and they sure are not happy about devoting max money to Lewis now, are they?

  123. Brian Cronin

    As I wrote on RLYW, the parallel to the Knicks’ situation with Lebron is interesting. In both cases, the free agent appears to have made up his mind to go to the team of his choosing, then shined on all of his suitors into thinking they had a chance.

  124. BigBlueAL

    Well as a Yankees fan all I can say is at least I have the Knicks right now. Wait what year is this, 1992????

  125. Ben R

    Someone said previously that Memphis wants to move Thabeet and if Memphis is trying to trade both Thabeet and Mayo what about a straight up trade of Randolph plus junk for both. Mayo can help us now (if he can get back to last years form) and has upside, not as much as Randolph but upside nonetheless, and Thabeet could be the answer at 5 long term.

    I think Randolph is a better prospect than either Mayo or Thabeet but together I think I make that trade, both are big gambles, so is Randolph, but they fill more of a need and we would have two shots to hit on upside rather than one.

    As for Mcgee I would probably trade Randolph straight up but Randolph has alot higher upside and in a few years it could look really dumb. We could possibly sign DeAndre Jordan, very similar to McGee, this offseason and not give up anyone.

  126. Unreason

    She’s our daughter, the Knicks. She’s finally coming into her own. The painful awkward years are ending and we’re caught up in all the possibilities of what she might become. Then this kid we don’t know well with something hard to identify on his upper lip comes knocking on the door to ask her out. She’s thrilled because he’s a big shot at school. We want to protect her and make sure she’s not selling herself short. Something like that.

  127. Unreason

    BigBlueAL: On a side note, I hate Cliff Lee more now than I hate the Big 3 in Miami.lol  

    Not getting Lee or Crawford makes it easier for me to be enthusiastic as a Yankees fan. If we can’t win having paid for Texiera, A Rod, Sabathia… then we can’t. It has to stop somewhere. That Phillies rotation might set some records, though.

  128. Resounding Rebounding

    Ben R: Someone said previously that Memphis wants to move Thabeet and if Memphis is trying to trade both Thabeet and Mayo what about a straight up trade of Randolph plus junk for both. Mayo can help us now (if he can get back to last years form) and has upside, not as much as Randolph but upside nonetheless, and Thabeet could be the answer at 5 long term. I think Randolph is a better prospect than either Mayo or Thabeet but together I think I make that trade, both are big gambles, so is Randolph, but they fill more of a need and we would have two shots to hit on upside rather than one.As for Mcgee I would probably trade Randolph straight up but Randolph has alot higher upside and in a few years it could look really dumb. We could possibly sign DeAndre Jordan, very similar to McGee, this offseason and not give up anyone.  (Quote)

    I don`t think DeAndre Jordan is as good a player right now as McGee. Nevertheless, I`m thinking more of getting a big man that can help us this season AND next season. Deandre Jordan and McGee both fit that mold. I certainly think the asking price for Jordan in a trade would be much lower. In regards to Anthony Randolph, his natural position his small forward, a position we are fine at, but the Wizards aren`t. I don`t think such a trade would look bad in a couple of years. Mcgee is already putting up the shot blocking and rebounding numbers we expect from Randolph, they’re about the same age and McGee’s offensive game should only get better.

  129. Z

    Brian Cronin:
    Of course it is relevant. As I said, no good team devotes 60% of their payroll to two players. None.   

    If by “none” you really mean “only half of all the championship teams of the past 15 years”. The 1995 Rockets gave 60% of their total payroll to two players; the 1997 Bulls gave over 60% of their total payroll to two players; the 1998 Bulls gave 55% of their payroll to one player; the 2000-2003 Lakers gave very close to 60% of their total payroll to two players; the 2008 Celtics gave 77% of their payroll to three players. You may be able to add the 2011 Heat to that list come June. Obviously, it can be done. The trick is doing it right.

    “So you’re basically locked into that team (plus mid-level exceptions, of course) as your team for the next five-six years.”

    Under the current CBA, the Knicks would have $14 million in expiring contracts at the trade deadline in 2012. Enough to bring in a 3rd max contract if one is available. (And history shows that these guys do become available (Gasol, Garnett, Allen, etc…)).

    If people want to say bringing in Carmelo is wrong because of the possibility of a hard cap, then I get it. But under the current system, adding Carmelo Anthony could actually increase flexibility.

    I think the total $ amount Anthony makes is largely insignificant. More important is who we’d have to surrender in a deal to bring him here before the deadline. But there is definitely a “strategic sense” to it, whether it pays off or not.

  130. Brian Cronin

    If by “none” you really mean “only half of all the championship teams of the past 15 years”.

    You really, really, really, really (I could go on, but that would belabor the point) can’t compare the NBA today to the NBA before the lockout (or even the NBA in the years directly following the lockout, where many of the contracts were grandfathered in). So when I say good teams, you should know I mean now (and the foreseeable future), as the rules are dramatically different for salaries, which is why you don’t see teams devoting as much of their payroll to just two players (and, again, as I noted before, it’s not even that you should never do it, it is that if you do do it, it better be for a no-brainer, like Gasol with Kobe).

  131. latke

    I’m really bothered by the nebulous references to how we need to save our dollars. Melo may not be the right move for this team, but let’s be realistic here. All teams that aim to compete for a championship in the short term go over the cap. We are going to have to do the same thing, if not before/during this offseason, then absolutely by next season. Let’s eliminate the money factor and just talk about the players we could have. For argument’s sake, let’s say we get carmelo for expirings, douglas, and randolph.

    Team Over the Cap Right Now Conceivable 12/13 core:
    Anthony, Stoudemire, Felton, Gallinari, Fields, Mozgov, Chandler, Azubuike, Bill Walker, Glen Davis (2011 MLE signing), Steve Nash (2012 MLE signing to share time/ backup felton).

    Team Wait Until this Offseason Conceivable 12/13 core: Stoudemire, Deron Williams, Marc Gasol, Chandler (he liked NY, so he took less $ to stay), Landry Fields, 7 minimum contracts.

    That starting lineup for the “wait squad” looks pretty magnificent, but it has no depth, and it’s also more of a long shot since it relies on other players choosing to come to new york. Which do you choose?

  132. Brian Cronin

    For argument’s sake, let’s say we get carmelo for expirings, douglas, and randolph.

    You can’t even start the argument if the Melo trade does not involve Chandler or Gallo, as the Nuggets will never ever trade Melo in a deal with the Knicks this season that does not involve one of those two players (heck, they might not agree to any deal with the Knicks that doesn’t involve one of those two plus Fields, but at the very very least they would require one of those two guys back for Melo).

  133. Nick C.

    Spree8nyk8: Just wanted to thank everyone for their thoughts and prayers. Means a lot. I wish I had good news but it’s not. Jonathan has very little brain activity and is surviving on life support. He is expected to pass in 24-72 hours. I really don’t have words right now, but I wanted to put an update.Thank you once again.  (Quote)

    Oh I’m sorry to have to read that. Hang in there.

  134. Frank

    I think what will happen is that Donnie will continue to play it cool all the way up to and through the trade deadline. He’ll put out Curry + Chandler + TD or Randolph and be just fine if Denver refuses. Best case scenario (if we actually want Melo) is then to sign him as a FA after the year and lose nothing except possibly the ability to bring WC back. Worst case scenario in that setting would be that Melo gets traded/signs somewhere else, and we can use our $14M+ in cap space to sign WC (who I think is great right now – maybe the light has turned on?) and a defensive big — and there will be 3 on the market that might fit well – Marc Gasol, Tyson Chandler, and Kendrick Perkins. I think Chandler is probably the best fit of the 3 — Perkins and Gasol seem a little slow for this system.

  135. MSA

    I’m not sold on this Melo trade and honestly I would rather not do it.

    However, a lot of guys are talking like we are full of options ahead.

    Gasol is a RFA and I dont think Memphis will let him go for nothing.
    And why would Boston and Dallas quit on Perkins and Chandler too? Unless we are willing to overpay for them…

    The fact is that there aren’t much more quality players available that will make us MUCH better via FA

    One thing that last summer teached us was to not expect high priced FA to come here at any cost just because “it’s new york”.

    Melo, is a huge gamble. Deron and CP3 is another one.

  136. Nick C.

    I’m not sold that what the #4 ranked offense in the NBA needs is a player whose primary value comes from offense. I could be wrong. But I hate to say it but this obsessive tinkering and niot wanting to leave well enough alone (the Van Horn for Tim Thomas trade) is exactly what Isiah would have done. I don’t care that Melo is supposed to be better than Marbury or Francis, much less Curry or Crawford, he is a similar style of player in that his value comes primarily from scoring. Just for the life of me I can’t understand how after ten years of absolute garbage the team really starts to gel and all people want to do or talk about is some dude from another team.

  137. rama

    Spree, really sorry to hear the news. My thoughts are with you.

    MSA, we ARE “full of options.” Tyson Chandler is not restricted – and just as one significant FA in baseball signed a contract not with his current Texas team, there’s no reason TChandler might not do the same. (Though probably not with the team in Philly!!) If you’re a FA 5 looking to sign somewhere, and you see a young, good team that is missing a 5, and they are willing to offer you the best deal – that’s not necessarily a hard deal to accept.

    There are other options beyond that, but none as good, or as good but restricted. But even then, we don’t know what Memphis is capable of paying Gasol, for instance. They may not want to match us. OR, they’d be willing to trade.

    After James didn’t come here, I was all about CP3 in 2012. But Felton is playing at a high level and still has his menisca. (Menisci? Meniscuses?) Whether he’s eighth best or twelfth best, he’s good. But we have little interior D (despite the high number of blocks) and no reliable Big who can limit the other team’s best Big. Amare tries and gets in foul trouble. We clearly need a 5 – and there will be a few available.

    I can live with Melo and his ginormous contract if we somehow sign him as a FA and trade for a top Center (or sign a top Center and trade for him). We have a limited number of assets with which to get this done. If we trade Curry, Chandler, and AR for Melo, we had better end up with a good C in some deal somewhere, because we won’t have much left to get him with and he won’t be able to sign as a FA.

    And then all the advocates for Melo can be thrilled while he’s our effective go to guy while Amare’s on the bench…and the other team continues to kill us inside when either player is on the court. We need a 5, and can’t let Melo prevent that from happening.

  138. Droidz1979

    Spree8nyk8: Just wanted to thank everyone for their thoughts and prayers. Means a lot. I wish I had good news but it’s not. Jonathan has very little brain activity and is surviving on life support. He is expected to pass in 24-72 hours. I really don’t have words right now, but I wanted to put an update.Thank you once again.  (Quote)

    Sorry to hear that Spree… hoping that someting good might still come out irregardless of how crappy the current situation is.

  139. GHenman

    Nick C.: I’m not sold that what the #4 ranked offense in the NBA needs is a player whose primary value comes from offense. I could be wrong. But I hate to say it but this obsessive tinkering and niot wanting to leave well enough alone (the Van Horn for Tim Thomas trade) is exactly what Isiah would have done. I don’t care that Melo is supposed to be better than Marbury or Francis, much less Curry or Crawford, he is a similar style of player in that his value comes primarily from scoring. Just for the life of me I can’t understand how after ten years of absolute garbage the team really starts to gel and all people want to do or talk about is some dude from another team.  (Quote)

    Amen.

  140. villainx

    I’m assuming it ain’t that easy to get a defensive 5, or a big front court glue guy to masquerade as a 5.

    What are some possibilities?

  141. bockadoo

    As far as big guys go, AR and/or Mozgov are gonna start contributing soon. We also have Jerome Jordan waiting in the wings. Anyone know how he’s doing?

  142. Bruno Almeida

    Nick C.: I’m not sold that what the #4 ranked offense in the NBA needs is a player whose primary value comes from offense.I could be wrong. But I hate to say it but this obsessive tinkering and niot wanting to leave well enough alone (the Van Horn for Tim Thomas trade) is exactly what Isiah would have done.I don’t care that Melo is supposed to be better than Marbury or Francis, much less Curry or Crawford, he is a similar style of player in that his value comes primarily from scoring.Just for the life of me I can’t understand how after ten years of absolute garbage the team really starts to gel and all people want to do or talk about is some dude from another team.  

    I agree with you, but we are a top 4 offensive team playing against the 29th toughest schedule in the NBA.

    Will our offense be so effective against the great teams in the league? Will Amare score 30 so easily against Boston or Orlando?

    I say, let’s wait until this team faces this next very tough stretch, and we’ll see.

    I just hope Walsh doesn’t freak out and trade a lot for Melo when we could wait until free agency, with the way things are going, any trade that takes more than AR, Curry and maybe TD is a bad idea for us.

  143. d-mar

    Bruno Almeida:
    I agree with you, but we are a top 4 offensive team playing against the 29th toughest schedule in the NBA.Will our offense be so effective against the great teams in the league? Will Amare score 30 so easily against Boston or Orlando?I say, let’s wait until this team faces this next very tough stretch, and we’ll see.I just hope Walsh doesn’t freak out and trade a lot for Melo when we could wait until free agency, with the way things are going, any trade that takes more than AR, Curry and maybe TD is a bad idea for us.  

    I think our effectiveness on offense in the next 2 games will be very telling. If Amare gets frustrated, shut down, turns the ball over a lot, etc. then our deficiencies will become readily apparent. In a close game (which we’ve been in a lot of lately), if the defense is able to smother Amare, who’s our next option in crunch time? Felton? Gallo? Will? I think we’ll know a lot more about this team after Friday.

  144. Eazy B

    After following this thread, it’s clear that there are a number of factors in play, most notably exactly how good Melo is and what we would have to sacrifice in signing him. This Knicks team is brand new and while this season has shown a ton of promise, I’m reluctant to say that we are very close to contending. Time will tell, especially the stretch of games we’re headed into, but when opportunities like this one (to sign Carmelo) come along, they hold particularly high weight because we can’t bank on another player of his calibur (even if you think he’s overrated) coming to New York by free agency or trade. These opportunities come few and far between.

    That being said, it’s abundantly obvious that interior defense is the most critical flaw for this team and signing Carmelo cannot trump fixing that problem. If the two aren’t mutually exclusive, I think our concerns about Melo are overblown. Yes, if Melo occupied the exact same role on this team as he does with Denver, it would be problematic. But can’t we almost definitely say that he wouldn’t?

    This issue seems so similar to our issues with the Felton signing – a player underproducing in a system that doesn’t take full advantage of his skills. While Carmelo plays in another fast system, that is about as far as the comparison goes. The Nuggets play what essentially everyone including the coaching staff labels “random offense.” I remember a piece on roundballminingcompany.com that reflected despite the fact that there was clear statistical evidence that the Nuggets were extremely effective running the pick and roll (including Melo as the ball handler), it was rarely used. The Nuggets offense has succeeded in spite of their play calling. I really believe that. Mike D’antoni runs a much more controlled free-flowing offense. And unlike the Nuggets, he has success in the half-court as well.

    Also, I would love to know how similar Team USA’s offense was compared to the Knicks now.

  145. Bruno Almeida

    @1666

    Yeah, it’s still very early in the season, and I absolutely love the team the way it’s built, but we still got to be tested in the higher levels.

  146. Eazy B

    Carmelo performed so well in that setting and has even acknowledged in interviews that he prefers the international style of play compared to the NBA. like I said, it’s clear that we don’t want Melo in the same capacity he is employed in currently, but there are an abundance of signs that suggest it’s a ludicrous to assume that would be the case. Sorry about all the text, but the Nuggets were my vacation home while the Knicks were rebuilding!

  147. Frank

    While I’m very happy that there are so many new posters here, it is strange (as someone else mentioned) that the old stand-bys, the guys that were here when I showed up 2 years ago, seem to have disappeared! jonabbey wrote 1 or 2 posts, Owen is apparently gone, kobayashi , Ted, etc. It’s like reverse bandwagon-jumping. I guess overall there is less to talk about when the team is playing really well than when it sucks — ergo little discussion about how we’re playing and lots of discussion re: Melo.

  148. Bruno Almeida

    Eazy B: Sorry for the trail of posts – wanted to link to this article that shows how effective Melo might be in a different role.
    http://www.roundballminingcompany.com/2010/10/19/carmelo-anthony-efficient/  

    That’s a great article, the guy did a pretty nice job going after each stat.

    now the question is: is Melo shooting so many contested shots because that’s what he is, a guy with bad shot selection, or is it because that’s how Denver’s offense is built?

    I think it’s a little of both, he has to improve his shot selection too, but he’d have a lot more open shots playing together with Amare.

    @174

    I’ve always been a part-time lurker, it’s just that I didn’t have internet at home for an extended period and I quit my job, so I could never participate consistently lol.

  149. Nick C.

    Nice research finding the article, Easy B. Now this isn’t meant as an an insult or condescending but just a simple fact. That is the third time that article has been linked. Yours, about two threads ago, and around when it came out (see the Ghost of Ted Nelson comments). This is just an undirected comment from me but you see why I might get a little unthrilled with the Meloization of this board.

  150. Thomas B.

    Strange how now that we can get Anthony I really don’t want to trade for him. I don’t like his WS/48 so far this year. And for his career, he has never reached the star level. His high was .154 which puts him well above average. We already have an above average player in Landry Fields who is 5 years younger and makes about 14.5 million dollars less than Anthony. Now if he opts out and you can sign him in July, that is better. But he isnt worth the young cheap players that we would need to move to get him.

    I’m sure I’ll be called crazy for this, but I’d offer that today Wilson Chandler is a better fit than Carmelo Anthony for this team. This is the first year that Wilson even reached the average level for WS/48. At .138 Chandler is above average (.100), slightly below very good (.150), and well below the star level (.200).

    Meanwhile Anthony’s best year was and above average year (.153) and since he has hovered between average and above average. I say don’t sell the stock of young talent to get him. Sign him as a free agent, sure. But dont trade Chandler, Randolph, Fields, Douglas, Gallinari, ect to get him. He isnt worth that expense.

    What I would like is the Knicks to make a push for either Chris Paul (.280 WS/48 is best in NBA) and/or Marc Gasol (.163) by the deadline.

  151. villainx

    It’s like reverse bandwagon-jumping. I guess overall there is less to talk about when the team is playing really well than when it sucks — ergo little discussion about how we’re playing and lots of discussion re: Melo.

    =(

    While participating lightly in the Melo discussion, I’ve been trying my best to hijack it to other Knicks talk. I don’t add much however, as I follow the team mostly from the box score, and uh, this site. No cable.

  152. ess-dog

    Oops, I forgot to discuss Chandler on the Wilson Chandler thread…

    You have to be excited about the jump he has taken so far this year. I would’ve been happy with a much more marginal improvement: maybe a point jump in PER, improved defense and a few more assists or boards per contest, but I didn’t really think his 3pt shooting would improve.
    I still think he’s more of a small fwd, but he and Gallo are pretty interchangeable at the 2 fwd spots in this offense.
    He’s only 23 and putting up Rudy Gay numbers (better actually) and Gay has had his best season thus far and is a year older than Chandler. And their usage is not that different. If Chandler keeps these #’s up, he COULD get a Gay contract – 14-15 mil per.
    Now he probably won’t because he’s not a fancy CT product like Gay, top ten pick and all.
    But seriously, would Memphis include Gay in a Melo package? Would Denver want Gay? I think there’s a lot to be said in this league for name recognition and how it distorts reality. Now you could also argue that WC has the benefit of playing with STAT while Gay has to play with ZBo.
    And again, Wilson is only 23! We are all smitten with Felton because of his renaissance at age 25. Who’s to say that Chandler has reached his ceiling? Watch out if he ever becomes an effective passer…
    Melo or not, I just don’t think we should be jumping at the chance to trade players like Wilson, Gallo or Fields.

  153. DS

    Bruno Almeida:now the question is: is Melo shooting so many contested shots because that’s what he is, a guy with bad shot selection, or is it because that’s how Denver’s offense is built?I think it’s a little of both, he has to improve his shot selection too, but he’d have a lot more open shots playing together with Amare.  

    I think if you were to theoretically slide Carmelo into the Knicks’ offense as it currently is, Carmelo would get more open looks than he does with the Nuggets. Opposing defenses seem to be overloading STAT’s hot spots to force turnovers and/or try to slow him down and the Knicks are doing a pretty good job of finding the open man.

  154. DS

    ess-dog: Melo or not, I just don’t think we should be jumping at the chance to trade players like Wilson, Gallo or Fields.

    Agreed. And I think the chances to sign Melo outright without losing any young prospects seems good enough that the Knicks should go for it. It’s not quite a CP3-STAT-MELO big three. But a young and improving Gallo/Chandler/Felton/Fields-STAT-MELO combo looks pretty friggin’ good on paper too. With Douglas (whose injury I think has been understated) and Randolph having the potential for stardom as well.

  155. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Eazy B: Sorry for the trail of posts – wanted to link to this article that shows how effective Melo might be in a different role.
    http://www.roundballminingcompany.com/2010/10/19/carmelo-anthony-efficient/  

    The methodology is flawed. Ten games is not a large enough sample to reasonably assert that Kevin Martin takes more open shots than the rest of that pack. Also, other variables have to be accounted for, such as player position and opposing defense.

    It’s not a very conclusive study. Also, Marc Gasol? Pretty please?

  156. DS

    Sorry, by “go for it” I meant go for the possibility of adding Melo as a free agent while keeping all of our young pieces (and just risk losing him to Chicago, Dallas, etc. in a trade).

  157. hoolahoop

    Dear Carmelo:
    Three weeks ago I was ten games into my new season and I still sucked . . . coming off of ten years of sucking. I was in a lot of pain and desperate for a remedy. You were that remedy. But you were not there when I needed you.

    Well, now I’m feeling stronger than I have in a long, long time. I no longer think you’re the right guy for me. Things have changed. It’s not you. It’s me. You’re a good player and I’m sure you’ll do well. No hard feelings. Good luck.
    Knicks

    ps – If you know any really tall, strong, fast guys that don’t always have to be the center of attention, please let me know.

  158. Bruno Almeida

    if we could be guaranteed to end up next year with Marc Gasol or tyson Chandler (or maybe Nenê, if he terminates his contract early) while resigning WC, I’d say 100% no to Carmelo.

  159. Frank

    Well, we will all get a big reality check tomorrow and friday when the big boys finally come. If we can even win one of these games at home then we may really have something!

    Thomas B.I’m sure I’ll be called crazy for this, but I’d offer that today Wilson Chandler is a better fit than Carmelo Anthony for this team.

    Actually I totally agree with you (see #20 in this thread). I think the only reason we can sort of get away with the small-ish lineup we have is that Chandler is playing the Shawn Marion role, guarding everyone from 1s-4s at times. Add that defensive versatility to his growing and increasingly efficient offensive game, and I think Chandler is, at least for this season, a keeper.

    Re: his shooting – he IS shooting a career high from 3, and I hope that this is a result of hard work in the off-season as opposed to random ups and downs. He’s shooting 46% from 3 in December which seems unsustainable, but he also shot 35% in November, which may be sustainable. Looking through his monthly splits, he has never had this long a stretch shooting this well, so perhaps it is real. His december #s are really off the charts — 46% from 3, TS 68%. I would want him to get to the line more, but it seems like much of his offense comes in transition and on spot-ups, so I guess there is not that much opportunity to get fouled (as opposed to driving to the hoop or posting up in half-court).

  160. stratomatic

    A few thoughts on Chandler

    1. A lot of people were high on him for reasons other than his athleticism. It was because all the coaches and players were saying that he was very good character person, had a very stong work ethic, was very coachable, very young, and his development was held back by multiple off season surgeries that prevented him from working on his game for several months each summer. Athleticsm alone often does not get the job done.

    2. If people recall, he was terrible at the start of last season (possibly still recovering his athleticism, shot etc.. after surgery) and then improved his efficiency sharply after that. So being a more efficient player this year was almost a mortal lock UNLESS he reverted back to shooting too many jumpers.

    3. I’m not entirely convinced his recently improved 3 point shooting is sustainable, but it might be.

    4. Even though his blocked shots and rebounding are improving in part because he’s playing more PF, I don’t think it’s good for the team.

    There are two issues to consider.

    One is personal stats and the other personal stats relative to the position you are playing. To me, even though Wilson “may” be more productive as a PF, he’s a well below average PF because he doesn’t rebound as well as the typical starting PF and can’t defend the really long players. When he plays SG or SF, he gives up something on the stat sheet, but his productivity is above average for those positions. Part of the reason he was so good after the slow start last year was that the smaller SGs could not contain his strength going to the basket and he also used to post them up on occasion.

    To me, he’s really an extremely versatile and now above average SF. That versatility adds a lot of value to the team compared to less versatile players like Gallo.

  161. dubisaweapon

    Nick C.: Just for the life of me I can’t understand how after ten years of absolute garbage the team really starts to gel and all people want to do or talk about is some dude from another team.  

    I agree 110% with Nick on this. For the first time in YEARS we have a team that we can all be proud of, and the biggest topic of conversation here and in the mainstream media is Carmelo Anthony.
    There’s no doubt that the cat is a serious baller, but why the incessant focus on the Melo-drama when the team itself is so freaking good (and likely to only get better)? I, for one, would much rather see the current crew stick around and show us exactly what they’re made of then watch a bunch of them get shipped out of town.

    In any case, there is something very poetic about the make-up of the current team that I really enjoy. We’ve got only one megastar on the roster (Amare), a solid PG in Felton, plus our three homegrown players (Fields, Chandler, Gallo) leading the charge. It is easy to get seduced into adding Melo as way to compete with the Heat in the superstar arms-race, but I think the hard-working, hustling crew we’ve got now is just so much more fun to be a fan of.

  162. Frank

    stratomatic:
    To me, even though Wilson “may” be more productive as a PF, he’s a well below average PF because he doesn’t rebound as well as the typical starting PF and can’t defend the really long players. When he plays SG or SF, he gives up something on the stat sheet, but his productivity is above average for those positions. Part of the reason he was so good after the slow start last year was that the smaller SGs could not contain his strength going to the basket and he also used to post them up on occasion.
    To me, he’s really an extremely versatile and now above average SF. That versatility adds a lot of value to the team compared to less versatile players like Gallo.  

    I’d tend to agree with you on logic but it doesn’t appear that way by #s — imperfect as they may be, here are the stats on WC by position:

    http://www.82games.com/1011/10NYK8.HTM#bypos

    Naturally he spends the vast majority of his time playing SF and PF — and he is holding PFs to a PER of 11 and an eFG of 46. Overall his net PERs at the 3 and 4 are quite impressive. I guess we will see when he is up against Bosh and Garnett the next two games.

  163. stratomatic

    Quick comment on the disappearance of Ted.

    I am opposed to anyone getting barred or driven away by others because of their opinions on basketball, stats or anything else basketball related. To me that kind of thing should be limited to people that get vulgar, attack others personally, and commit other similar “extreme” and “consistent” infractions.

    However, I have to admit that IMHO the blog has improved immeasureably since Ted left even if we have lost one of it’s more knowledgeable participants.

    There’s something to be said for being able to read the opinions of others without every single comment (and sometimes each sentence) being rebutted or reponded to by Ted with one of his lengthy missives.

    For myself, I also feel more willing to participate because I don’t have to fear that every single sentence I write has to be so obviously crystal clear that Ted won’t be tempted to disect each one looking for a way to argue a point, take it out of context, or disagree with it and force to me get into a long winded debate or discussion I don’t want to have and that wasn’t necessary to begin with.

    I think we can learn something from that. I would encourage Ted to start his own blog where he can express his many opinions on every aspect of basketball and every player in the league.

  164. stratomatic

    <

    Frank: I’d tend to agree with you on logic but it doesn’t appear that way by #s — imperfect as they may be, here are the stats on WC by position:http://www.82games.com/1011/10NYK8.HTM#byposNaturally he spends the vast majority of his time playing SF and PF — and he is holding PFs to a PER of 11 and an eFG of 46. Overall his net PERs at the 3 and 4 are quite impressive. I guess we will see when he is up against Bosh and Garnett the next two games.  (Quote)

    I was mostly referring to taller longer guys like Gasol, Bosh and Garnett, but here are his stats from last year to look at to add to the sample.

    http://www.82games.com/0910/09NYK10.HTM

  165. Frank

    stratomatic: <
    I was mostly referring to taller longer guys like Gasol, Bosh and Garnett, but here are his stats from last year to look at to add to the sample.
    http://www.82games.com/0910/09NYK10.HTM  

    Agreed (although the sample size from 09-10 at PF is miniscule) — we’ll see what happens when the quality of the frontcourts takes a jump these next few weeks– although we’ll probably see more Turiaf and Mozgov (and Randolph?) when the Lakers and such hit town. No way Amare and WC will be able to deal with Gasol and Bynum. LAL could set records for OReb% in that matchup.

  166. stratomatic

    Frank: Agreed (although the sample size from 09-10 at PF is miniscule) — we’ll see what happens when the quality of the frontcourts takes a jump these next few weeks– although we’ll probably see more Turiaf and Mozgov (and Randolph?) when the Lakers and such hit town. No way Amare and WC will be able to deal with Gasol and Bynum. LAL could set records for OReb% in that matchup.  (Quote)

    This is one reason I haven’t been participating in the debate about Melo.

    No matter what you think about Melo, it’s crystal clear that the Knicks biggest need is not a high volume shooter and scorer at the wing. It’s probably the thing we need least. To ties up most of the rest of our cap space on a player like Melo IMO would be so incomprehesibly stupid I can’t believe it even gets discussed by serious fans.

    It’s obvious that this teams need a Center that can help Amare defend the paint and rebound. Despite Amare’s huge offensive numbers there is a striking similarity to Lee in that other big men often seem have career nights against him (Nene being the latest).

    I am in the minority in thinking that the primary reason the Knicks are so much better this year is because Fields and Felton have been very large upgrades at PG and SG respectively, Chandler is better, and Turiaf is an upgrade over Jeffries. Others are free to give Amare most of the credit, but I think his positive impact is overstated because people are so focused on scoring.

  167. latke

    Brian Cronin:
    You can’t even start the argument if the Melo trade does not involve Chandler or Gallo, as the Nuggets will never ever trade Melo in a deal with the Knicks this season that does not involve one of those two players (heck, they might not agree to any deal with the Knicks that doesn’t involve one of those two plus Fields, but at the very very least they would require one of those two guys back for Melo).  

    Regardless, you can then swap out DG or WC from that future roster and swap in TD. The contrast still remains in that getting over the cap right now will help us a ton in terms of depth. If we wait until this offseason or next season, we will have cap space, but we may get more value by using that cap space on our own players and going over the cap, than by saving all of it for one free agent coup like Deron Williams.

  168. Frank

    Sorry for doing this, but has been an incredibly slow day listening to conference calls that have nothing to do with me.

    So if we bomb during this upcoming stretch, Cleveland continues to suck, and Denver continues to be held hostage by Melo – how does this look?

    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2c8b92f

    Cleveland would be in immediate dump mode and might be willing to drop Varejao and Sessions and their multi-year contracts. Denver would get a nice package as well for a guy they’re going to lose anyway.

    We would be left with this roster:

    PG: Felton
    SG: Fields
    SF: Melo
    PF: Amare
    C: Varejao
    Bench: Sessions, Parker, Randolph, Mozgov, Shawne, Walker, Rautins, Mason

    We would be seriously short on outside shooting but Parker is great 3 point shooter and we could sprinkle Bill Walker or Extra E in there.

    Dunno. Seems good for all teams involved.

    But only if we bomb during this stretch and if teams like Boston/LA take Amare away and expose our lack of a bonafide secondary scorer.

  169. JK47

    Even though Amar’e and Melo may seem redundant, remember that D’Antoni’s whole approach as a coach hinges on having an unstoppable offense.

    It’s kind of like in baseball– if you’re one of the top run scoring teams in the league but your pitching is so-so, your instinct would be to acquire pitchers. But depending on who is available, you might actually create more wins for your team by adding another hitter. The idea is outscoring the other team; it doesn’t really matter how you do it.

    That would be the thinking if the team were to acquire Melo– to turn a very good offense into a super-elite offense, even if it means the defense staying about the same. I’m not saying it’ll win championships, but if we’re really going to commit to D’Antoni’s system, Melo might not be such a bad fit.

  170. NYK Ewing

    It’s honestly ridiculous how shortsighted people are about any and every Knicks issue. People are talking here as if we’ve played almost the whole season against great teams. We’re played a quarter of the season with the second-easiest schedule.

    Remember how big the “Fire Dantoni” crowd was at 3-8? “He can’t coach defense or rebounds.” Guess what – we’re one of the worst in the league in points allowed and sub-average in rebounding still. But that doesn’t matter because we’re winning, regardless that we’ve only played a garbage schedule.

    If what people are saying is “Let’s wait to see how this squad will do against good teams before thinking about trades.” Then I agree – but the tone has been much more about “This current team is a contender right now let’s keep them through the season,” which is utterly absurd when we have no clue how we fare against good playoff teams with such a small sample size.

    I guarantee – guar-an-tee – that if we lose most of these upcoming games (or drop an easy one, say against Cleveland) – the tide will turn to “These Knicks really don’t have the pieces to be a contender, we need to trade to work on interior D and get a backup PG.” Which is more sensible. But I bet some will even think “We really need another great option to have a chance, like Melo.” I don’t necessarily agree with that sentiment as much as the first one, but to say we don’t need any changes because we’ve been winning against bad teams is silly. That’s the best word I can think of for that mentality.

  171. Bruno Almeida

    @196

    I’d be 100% favourable to that one, we’d get a great rebounder and defender, a very good backup PG, Carmelo and Parker is very underrated imo.

    it would hurt to lose both WC and Gallo, but as long as we keep Fields it’s not that terrible.

    we might need an extra forward if Randolph can’t progress, but we can also flip him for another team to get a more veteran, stable contributor.

    but I don’t think that has any chance of happening, Cleveland won’t accept getting Azu, Turiaf and TD back unless there are some picks involved.

  172. yoda4554

    stratomatic:
    Despite Amare’s huge offensive numbers there is a striking similarity to Lee in that other big men often seem have career nights against him (Nene being the latest).
    I am in the minority in thinking that the primary reason the Knicks are so much better this year is because Fields and Felton have been very large upgrades at PG and SG respectively, Chandler is better, and Turiaf is an upgrade over Jeffries. Others are free to give Amare most of the credit, but I think his positive impact is overstated because people are so focused on scoring.  

    This. I haven’t wanted to really harp on this point, because Amare is better than Lee–he’s had a near-decade of excellence at what he does that has continued this year, while Lee just reached his full potential last year and has struggled trying to duplicate it this year. But if people think that Amare has “single-handedly” turned the team around by being so much better for us this year than Lee was for us last year, take a look at this: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=stoudam01&y1=2011&p2=leeda02&y2=2010

    Not much difference, right? Amare scores more, but both of them score a bunch at a pretty similar efficiency; Lee makes up for scoring less by being a better rebounder and passer while taking care of the ball better. Amare probably is a somewhat better defender, but he’s certainly not been good by any stretch. The difference, as Strat says, has been the huge Duhon->Felton, Jefferies/TMac->Fields, and Harrington/Hughes->Turiaf/Douglas upgrades in minute distribution, not Lee->Amare. I’ll come out and say it, if no one else will: replacing 2010-2011 Amare with 2009-2010 David Lee would barely hurt this team’s record. It’d make them less fun to watch, since Amare’s such an athletic beast, but they’d win almost as much.

  173. yoda4554

    And one more thing to note in the above comparison–the “pathetic” Knicks of last year had a 116 ORtg and a 108 DRtg with Lee on the court. The “good” Knicks this year have had a 111 ORtg and 108 DRtg with Amare. Chew on that a moment. And for those people who think that the offense has so much trouble without Amare on the court, think again: they score very slightly more easily with him on the bench. (ORtgs do confirm, however, that the offense struggles when TD plays, and just falls off a cliff completely when Mozzie or AR hits the floor.)

  174. villainx

    Not much difference, right? Amare scores more, but both of them score a bunch at a pretty similar efficiency; Lee makes up for scoring less by being a better rebounder and passer while taking care of the ball better. Amare probably is a somewhat better defender, but he’s certainly not been good by any stretch.

    That feels like an underestimation on Stoudemire. Similar efficiency with more shot attempts plus the foul shots already creates a big separation. Plus Stoudemire’s score at will capability, which I didn’t really think he had – based on the perception that he benefited so much from Nash/system and the many transition dunks – helps everyone else around him, in a way that Lee’s talent didn’t necessarily do.

    But then again, maybe you are right. The other players Felton and Fields and etc, are certainly an improvement over the players from a year ago.

  175. kburt8

    Anyone have Melo’s advanced stats from team USA…that out to tell us a bit about his efficiency with a reduced responsibility to carry the scoring load.

  176. Bruno Almeida

    yoda4554: And one more thing to note in the above comparison–the “pathetic” Knicks of last year had a 116 ORtg and a 108 DRtg with Lee on the court.The “good” Knicks this year have had a 111 ORtg and 108 DRtg with Amare.Chew on that a moment.And for those people who think that the offense has so much trouble without Amare on the court, think again: they score very slightly more easily with him on the bench.(ORtgs do confirm, however, that the offense struggles when TD plays, and just falls off a cliff completely when Mozzie or AR hits the floor.)  

    but watching those two teams, the last year team and this one, isn’t there a much bigger difference than what only the stats tell?

    the similar stats proves that these are two similar teams?

    I agree that we’re winning against easy opponents, but this team is VERY different than the last year Knicks.

  177. yoda4554

    Actually, never mind my comments on player ORtg–think I’m misinterpreting the definition of how it’s calculated.

  178. taggart4800

    I seem to have been convinced back and forth sooo many times in this thread! Everyone has valid points and it is an extremely entertaining debate. My only point would be is this:-
    Eastern Conference Playoffs 2nd RD, Boston v NY Game 5, NY down 6 with 1.30 on the clock in the 4th Amare has been banged all series by Davies, Garnett et. al and is now fouled out. Felton brings the ball up and Mozgov sets the pick but neither find space. Good ball movement by the Knicks ismet with great D by the Celtics and Felton swings the ball to the guy on the perimeter for the Iso as the knicks clear out with 7 on the shot clock. Who do you want that guy to be? Melo or Chandler?
    That money has to be spent sometime and at the moment is being spent on 3 players that aren’t really seeing the court at all (Turiaf, Azu and Eddy).
    As for how are money could be spent better? I don’t disregard the center and secondary pg arguement but do you want to get into a bidding war with memphis? and what available player is worth more money than a healthy, developing athletic 7’1″ center with bags of time and ability?? or turiaf for that matter? A backup pg can be got in the draft or with the MLE. Camby for me is not an option, he is too old and his contract is too high for him to be better value than Mozgov.
    I know this is one of those ridiculous arguements that ends all other arguements but I use it a lot in soccer. We are esentially fans, I would imagine 98% (if not more) of the people on this blog have not been involved with professional sports at any point in our career, let alone the NBA specifically. There are a lot of NBA scouts and coaches that seem to rate Melo as a very good if not excellent NBA player and therefore i am pretty happy with any decision Donnies team make. They know they will have to live or die by that decision and thus it will not be taken lightly as after all, its their livelyhood thats on the line if Melo does turn out to be overated.

  179. Frank

    yoda4554: And one more thing to note in the above comparison–the “pathetic” Knicks of last year had a 116 ORtg and a 108 DRtg with Lee on the court.The “good” Knicks this year have had a 111 ORtg and 108 DRtg with Amare.Chew on that a moment.

    Unfortunately I think this might be one of those cases where advanced stats confuse obvious reality on the court. David Lee played 37.3 minutes per game on a team that went 23-59, so he was ON court >75% of the time for a team that sucked. There are no ORtg and DRtg scores that will convince me that the except for the 10.7 min/game he was off the court, the Knicks would have been awesome.

    No one is doubting that David Lee was a great player for us. But as with any synthetic individual stat that is created to try and make sense of a team game, some will be useful/consistent with reality and others will be less useful. Regardless of the comparative greatness of Lee’s/Amare’s individual “advanced stats”, it seems as if guys like Felton and Chandler are having career years playing with Amare. Is that because they suddenly got great over the summer? Maybe. New system for Felton? Maybe. Or maybe Amare draws so much attention that it opens up things for other players. We’ll probably never know. Lee went to a team that has great perimeter scorers and some semblance of a real center to protect him on defense — yet they’re even worse than last year. It’s tough at this point to make any conclusion other than that Knicks fans are ecstatic they have Amare and Warriors fans are miserable regardless of Lee.

  180. Nick C.

    Frank: Unfortunately I think this might be one of those cases where advanced stats confuse obvious reality on the court. David Lee played 37.3 minutes per game on a team that went 23-59, so he was ON court >75% of the time for a team that sucked. There are no ORtg and DRtg scores that will convince me that the except for the 10.7 min/game he was off the court, the Knicks would have been awesome. No one is doubting that David Lee was a great player for us. But as with any synthetic individual stat that is created to try and make sense of a team game, some will be useful/consistent with reality and others will be less useful. Regardless of the comparative greatness of Lee’s/Amare’s individual “advanced stats”, it seems as if guys like Felton and Chandler are having career years playing with Amare. Is that because they suddenly got great over the summer? Maybe. New system for Felton? Maybe. Or maybe Amare draws so much attention that it opens up things for other players. We’ll probably never know. Lee went to a team that has great perimeter scorers and some semblance of a real center to protect him on defense — yet they’re even worse than last year. It’s tough at this point to make any conclusion other than that Knicks fans are ecstatic they have Amare and Warriors fans are miserable regardless of Lee.  (Quote)

    Maybe its the coaching??? Just sayin’. :-)

  181. Bruno Almeida

    One question to think:

    Chandler is an RFA in 2011, and the way he’s playing he’ll probably command at least 8-10 mil/year in the off-season.

    Gallinari will be an RFA in 2012, and he’ll probably ask for something in that level.

    would you rather have Carmelo Anthony for 20 million or Gallinari + Chandler for 20 million?

    that’s just a question, I’m not sure what I’d rather have, I’d probably go with Carmelo.

  182. stratomatic

    Frank,

    I think some of the credit for the improved performances of Felton and Chandler should probably accrue to the threat of Amare’s superior offensive (relative to Lee), but I think players like Duhon, Jeffries, and Hughes, were so bad offensively at times that some people may be underrating the contribution that Fields, Turiaf, Chandler and Felton are making.

    Turiaf was never a great offensive player, but at least when he shoots he’s around a 60 TS% player that stays within his limits, passes very well, defends well, block shots etc.. Jeffries was often a terrible liability in some ways even though he made contributions also.

    IMO Fields is a HUGE contributor to wins. Without his incredible rebounding for a SG, IMO we would be bad on the boards. Plus he rarely makes mistakes, scores very efficiently.

    Felton is probably benefitting from Amare the most but even without that he’s a way better scorer than Duohon and has a will to win that far surpasses anything that Duhon ever gave us.

    We were a 28 win team last year.

    If we we win between 41-45 this year (my hope), I think more than half should be credited to players not named Amare even though I am very satisfied with Amare. He’s been better than I thought. I thought the Amare for Lee swap wasn’t going to be worth much.

  183. Frank

    Definitely could be the coaching/system. Not sure we’ll ever know. the late Ted Nelson never believed that coaching/system made any difference, but the list is growing of players that put up career seasons with D’Antoni’s system then fall off when they leave the system.

  184. Frank

    stratomatic: Frank,
    I think some of the credit for the improved performances of Felton and Chandler should probably accrue to the threat of Amare’s superior offensive (relative to Lee), but I think players like Duhon, Jeffries, and Hughes, were so bad offensively at times that some people may be underrating the contribution that Fields, Turiaf, Chandler and Felton are making.

    Absolutely. You know, after this hugely long dry spell for us NYK fans, I just love this team. I love Felton and his bull-doggedness, I love Fields and how easily the game seems to come to him, I love Turiaf and the crazy looks he gets on his face. And Amare has been without a doubt, the most surprisingly awesome max signing of the year so far.

    I know it may be a little bit of fool’s gold considering strength of schedule, but it’s just so much fun to watch them play hard and come through in the clutch. My greatest expectations for this year were really just to squeeze into the playoffs, maybe aim for a .500 record — what’s happened so far has far surpassed even my most optimistic guesses.

  185. stratomatic

    Bruno Almeida: One question to think:Chandler is an RFA in 2011, and the way he’s playing he’ll probably command at least 8-10 mil/year in the off-season.Gallinari will be an RFA in 2012, and he’ll probably ask for something in that level.would you rather have Carmelo Anthony for 20 million or Gallinari + Chandler for 20 million?that’s just a question, I’m not sure what I’d rather have, I’d probably go with Carmelo.  (Quote)

    Under ideal circumstances I’d rather have Melo because he’s an upgrade over either of the two and is still young. But for a Knicks team with limited cap space I think the difference between Melo and Gallo/Chandler is not going to get us anywhere near the promised land and cap us out going forward. That’s why IMO it’s an almost preposterous idea to trade for him unless we somehow rob a legitimate C from someone else as part of the deal.

    IMO you don’t need a great offensive C to win the championship, but you can’t win a championship without a C that at least contributes something defensively, on the boards etc…. We don’t have a legitimate C right now and our best chance of getting one barring a trade/using Curry’s contract etc… is for Randolph to gain 30 pounds of muscle, work his ass off, learn how to play within his skill set, and play the position. That’s a project and a risk.

    I love Turiaf, but unless he ups his rebounding rate and stays healthy and fit enough to give 36 minutes he’s just a backup.

  186. Robert Silverman

    yoda4554:

    I’ll come out and say it, if no one else will: replacing 2010-2011 Amare with 2009-2010 David Lee would barely hurt this team’s record.It’d make them less fun to watch, since Amare’s such an athletic beast, but they’d win almost as much.  

    I disagree.

    I think the difference goes beyond quantifiable factors. Amar’e is PERCEIVED to be more dominant than Lee. He’s a “star.” Lee isn’t and never will be. When teams face the Knicks now, opposing defenses are game-planning to stop Amar’e (the Knicks’ “star” player) by jamming up the post, doubling him on the PnR/ISO’s. This is opening up space for Felton/Chandler/Fields/Etc. If you put 2010 Lee in there, they wouldn’t be doubling/focusing all their efforts on stopping Lee. He’d score at the same rate as Stat, but Felton/Fields/Chandler wouldn’t be nearly as effective.

    But more important than how defenses adjust/play the Knicks, is the mindset of the Knicks themselves.

    We forget that in any performative/athletic (heck, all human) endeavour, confidence/the belief that one can do what one sets out to do is waaaayyy more powerful than we realize/give credit for. The Knicks BELIEVE they can win w/Stat and so they do. The perception creates the reality.

    Lee, because he’s perceived as being less “dominant” or “athletic” could never have inspired that confidence (For David, being associated w/so many crappy teams is going to be a stigma that’s going to be hard to shake over the course of his career, no matter what the numbers say.)

    So no, I don’t think you can swap Lee and Stat and expect the same result

  187. d-mar

    Just to step back for a minute from the “get Melo” “don’t get Melo” arguments, how cool is it that we’re 16-9 and there’s a big time buzz in NYC about these next 2 games? A month ago we were pretty much ready to dump anyone but Amare to land Melo, and now we like our roster so much it’s become a very tough call (IMO).

    Let’s give a big round of applause to Mr. Donnie Walsh, who took us from salary cap hell to basketball relevance in 2 years.

  188. d-mar

    Oh, and another “reason to be cheerful”, a photo of our very own Landry Fields is front and center on today’s ESPN.com NBA home page next to Blake Griffin in a “top rookies” profile. Sweet!

  189. Bruno Almeida

    @214

    that’s one of the reasons I think Melo could help us, he would command so much more attention from defenses than Chandler and Gallinari do.

    much in the same way, Lee’s statistical contributions were on par with what Amare has been doing (even better sometimes, as yoda pointed out), but the impact is different.

    @216

    yeah, he definitely deserves it, all I remember from when Isiah left fired was people saying that it would take 4, 5 years to rebuild from that wretched situation, and here we are, 2 year and 8 months after that, watching an exciting basketball team.

  190. BigBlueAL

    LMAO at people still trying to say Lee and Amar’e are equal and the really absurd part that the team would have the same record right now if you replaced Amar’e with Lee. I repeat LMAO.

  191. Jafa

    This thread has gotten ridiculously long…we need a new one Mike STAT! (pun definitely intended)

    I’m just having fun being a Knicks fan these days. Been too long. We are arguing over whether we should keep our very good home grown role payers or import a second start who only wants to play for us. Love it!

    I always believed in Donnie Walsh and I think he’ll make the right move at the right time for this team.

  192. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    So, you guys don’t think that opposing teams know what kind of a shooter Gallo is? Seriously?

    It’s the NBA. No one is left unguarded. No one double teams players like Carmelo on the 3-point line.

  193. Bruno Almeida

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: So, you guys don’t think that opposing teams know what kind of a shooter Gallo is? Seriously?It’s the NBA. No one is left unguarded. No one double teams players like Carmelo on the 3-point line.  

    I mean, are you seriously saying that defenses guard Carmelo Anthony the same way they guard Danilo Gallinari?

    of course nobody doubles Carmelo on the 3-point line, he’s a career 30% shooter, but once he gets in the post or he catches the ball to drive it to the hoop, they will, and that’s when open shots come up for everyone else.

    or does anyone double team Gallinari when he’s on the post?

  194. Frank O.

    Yoda:

    You can say it, but you are alone on that one. There simply is no way that Lee could deliver at the end of the game the way Amare has done, on D or O.
    The type of shots Amare is having to take are unbelievably tough and he’s knocking them down. And he has a force of will and strength the Lee simply didn’t have.
    Remember that Amare right now is putting up large, efficient numbers as the focal point, and he is doing an enormous amount of scoring in the fourth period, a time I recall DLee – god love him – disappeared more often than not.

    And the wins are showing for it.
    Amare has more of the burden on his back. Lee was making 6 shots and three FTs per 36, while Amare is making 9.5 and 6, respectively.
    And Lee was only shooting a percentage point better. Amare is shootnig 9 percentage points better from the line.

    Meanwhile, Amare is getting two blocks to .5 for Lee per 36. Lee was getting 1.3 more rebounds per 36 than Amare this year.

  195. Frank O.

    Of course, the schedule is soft.

    But wasn’t Denver the start of a tough schedule? They are ranked by many in the top ten in the league. And the Knicks beat them. Nearly beat them the first time.

    I don’t see any reason to freak if they lose to the Celts. I mean, law of averages say they will lose some games, right?

    IMHO, this team is good. The ball flows beautifully. Their guard play on both ends has improved enormously.
    It feels great.

  196. Brian Cronin

    So no, I don’t think you can swap Lee and Stat and expect the same result

    It’s an absurd notion, and it’s irritating to hear someone suggest it, as now people can actually point to at least one person who actually has made the argument that many folks have been imagining people have been making for some time now.

  197. Bruno Almeida

    Frank O.: Of course, the schedule is soft.But wasn’t Denver the start of a tough schedule? They are ranked by many in the top ten in the league. And the Knicks beat them. Nearly beat them the first time.I don’t see any reason to freak if they lose to the Celts. I mean, law of averages say they will lose some games, right?IMHO, this team is good. The ball flows beautifully. Their guard play on both ends has improved enormously.
    It feels great.  

    One thing I was paying attention to, I was watching the Thunder game after our game last sunday, and then the Bulls yesterday, and they bot blew their opponents out pretty easily, but both teams have a tendency to stop the ball a lot, and to have trouble getting into a rhythm, despite the immense talents on both rosters.

    What I love about D’Antoni’s system is that it focuses on ball movement and continuity, so open shots are always going to be available, while some teams like the Bulls will have a lot of plays were the original intention broke down, and Rose gets it wih 10 seconds remaining and goes 1 on 5.

  198. DS

    @224 – The evidence that the Nets are even considering that name seems pretty patchy.

    Plus, can you imagine saying “I bought tickets to the New Yorkers game” or “Brooke Lopez is leading the New Yorkers with 15 points”???

    Furthermore, a team who has Jay-Z as a 1% owner but treats him as if he owns 50% to keep their brand cool is not going to take on the lamest name in NBA History. Nets is a stupid name but at least it conjures up images of the ABA Nets with Dr. J.

  199. BigBlueAL

    All these draft picks the Nets have and the Nuggets apparently want probably wont ever become as good a player as Landry Fields is now. lol

  200. Abasi

    stratomatic: Quick comment on the disappearance of Ted. I am opposed to anyone getting barred or driven away by others because of their opinions on basketball, stats or anything else basketball related. To me that kind of thing should be limited to people that get vulgar, attack others personally, and commit other similar “extreme” and “consistent” infractions. However, I have to admit that IMHO the blog has improved immeasureably since Ted left even if we have lost one of it’s more knowledgeable participants. There’s something to be said for being able to read the opinions of others without every single comment (and sometimes each sentence) being rebutted or reponded to by Ted with one of his lengthy missives. For myself, I also feel more willing to participate because I don’t have to fear that every single sentence I write has to be so obviously crystal clear that Ted won’t be tempted to disect each one looking for a way to argue a point, take it out of context, or disagree with it and force to me get into a long winded debate or discussion I don’t want to have and that wasn’t necessary to begin with.I think we can learn something from that. I would encourage Ted to start his own blog where he can express his many opinions on every aspect of basketball and every player in the league.  (Quote)

    Well said.

  201. ess-dog

    DS: @224 – The evidence that the Nets are even considering that name seems pretty patchy.
    Plus, can you imagine saying “I bought tickets to the New Yorkers game” or “Brooke Lopez is leading the New Yorkers with 15 points”???
    Furthermore, a team who has Jay-Z as a 1% owner but treats him as if he owns 50% to keep their brand cool is not going to take on the lamest name in NBA History. Nets is a stupid name but at least it conjures up images of the ABA Nets with Dr. J.  

    They’re clearly trying to emulate the wild successes of the Houston Texans franchise.
    But seriously, if that’s an option, stick with the Nets.
    Or why not totally emulate the Knicks and use a different name for some old fashioned shorts? The Brooklyn Culottes?

  202. Spree8nyk8

    That’s great for us, he either signs the extension and we don’t have to worry about it, or he doesn’t sign it and we pick him up as a free agent.

  203. Bruno Almeida

    Yeah, no chance for a desperation trade that guts our roster, and if Melo wants to come so badly, he still can.

  204. BigBlueAL

    TDM: Did Clyde Frazier write a book?Just saw him at a signing event at Borders Penn Station.  

    Apparently its an old book he wrote which is being re-released now if I understand correctly.

  205. John Kenney

    Everyone is mentioning possible C free agent signees. Anyone have ideas for centers that we could try to trade for?

  206. Bruno Almeida

    John Kenney: Everyone is mentioning possible C free agent signees. Anyone have ideas for centers that we could try to trade for?  

    I don’t know, I keep thinking of Dalembert, Sacramento is terrible right now and he could help us a lot.

    Varejão has been talked about too, but he would be much more expensive.

  207. tastycakes

    How the frak did the Nets get 2 first round picks from Terrence Williams and Joe Smith? That’s a good trade for them, especially with the current team going nowhere.

    (Melo without him signing an exception would be DUMB)

    Daryl Morey = overrated. Though I guess it isn’t his fault that Yao can’t stay on the court.

  208. cgreene

    John Kenney: Everyone is mentioning possible C free agent signees. Anyone have ideas for centers that we could try to trade for?  

    Camby as well if Portland continues to slide. That franchise is in trouble and Camby is highly paid roll player.

  209. Bruno Almeida

    tastycakes: How the frak did the Nets get 2 first round picks from Terrence Williams and Joe Smith?That’s a good trade for them, especially with the current team going nowhere.(Melo without him signing an exception would be DUMB)Daryl Morey = overrated.Though I guess it isn’t his fault that Yao can’t stay on the court.  

    the Joe Smith one is really surprising, but then again, it’s a Lakers 1st rounder, which is worth basically nothing.

    the Rockets 1st rounder is supposedly the one we gave them on the T-Mac trade… I don’t know, I like Terrence Williams, he’s extremely talented, but a 1st rounder for a player who had problems with his new coach and was demoted to the D-League recently? I wouldn’t do it.

  210. Z-man

    I have no worries about the Nets getting Carmelo, if he really wants to go there, let them have him. I’d love to have him but not as a result of a bidding war with the likes of the Nets. The Lakers pick is almost a 2nd rounder, those kind of picks are a dime a dozen (kinda how we got TD, no?)

    If we wind up standing pat, at least we get to see the young guys develop and we still have trade bait galore.

  211. Bruno Almeida

    Z-man: I have no worries about the Nets getting Carmelo, if he really wants to go there, let them have him.I’d love to have him but not as a result of a bidding war with the likes of the Nets. The Lakers pick is almost a 2nd rounder, those kind of picks are a dime a dozen (kinda how we got TD, no?)If we wind up standing pat, at least we get to see the young guys develop and we still have trade bait galore.  

    and we’ll have cap to get whoever suits us better after we have an entire year to evaluate what we already have, including Azu, for example, who I still think can contribute.

  212. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin: Yeah, I don’t get this deal for Houston at all.  

    But Daryl Morey is a genius!! He is the Billy Beane of the NBA!! lol

    Terrence Williams is probably worth the gamble and I believe Howard Beck clarified that the 2012 pick is Houston’s not the Knicks pick. Actually that could be worse for them since Im hoping/assuming in 2012 the Knicks pick is in the mid to late 20′s while the Rockets could still be struggling if Yao is gone/retired.

  213. Z

    Z-man: The Lakers pick is almost a 2nd rounder, those kind of picks are a dime a dozen (kinda how we got TD, no?).  

    Well, we paid the lakers $3 mil for the TD pick, so they are closer to 360,000,000 dimes for a dozen :)

  214. SeeWhyDee77

    OK..hopefully this is the last bit of waffling I do :o)
    I believe it was BC in an earlier thread who asked is Melo really better than the combo of Chandler/Rooster, saying that he was indeed not better for the Knicks than the duo. To which I agreed. The combo of Rooster/Chandler passes better, stretches the floor better, rebounds better and plays better defense. And this all goes without mentioning that the combo is far more cap friendly and will always be. They are also more versatile and coachable it seems. I am thoroughly enjoying this Chandler renaissance that we are watching. But let’s face it, he will problee never become the offensive weapon that Melo is. I would love to see him develop further and stay a Knick-as well as Rooster, but I’m not so sure that we should hold on to both guys now if it costs us a player like Melo. Hear me out. Melo may not be the ideal player to pair up with Stoudemire. But this is what he will give us. 25 and 7/8 boards per game consistently. All this from one player instead of 2. But he may have a bigger impact on our future than we realize. Consider this: Stat is 28, and while entering his prime-we cannot rationally expect him to hold up for 6 seasons at this level becuz he does has health concerns. Also his size and style of play may cause his health to go south quicker than Melo’s would. Melo’s 26 and he’s not the above the rim scorer Stat is. You hafta think that he’ll stay healthy longer. So when Stat’s gettin up there, we would still have a deadly scorer with him. Also with Stat/Fields/Melo in the line up..that’s 24 rpg..so we won’t suffer in that regard. However, if we have a chance to upgrade at the wing, 5, or at the PG (which is gonna be hard the way Felton’s playing) with a better fit than Melo then of course u go for it. Either way- Chandler has to be a part of that package with his current play. To be continued…

  215. SeeWhyDee77

    ..And furthermore, Rooster’s the more surefire shooter than Chandler-though Wil’s shooting well from distance this season. I don’t wanna go as far to say Chandler’s arrived. But he has gotten better at what he always does, which is great for us. He is coming into his own quite nicely. I don’t think anyone ever expected him to be a 20 ppg guy anyway. But he’s our best trade chip right now considering the fact that Stat, Fields and Felton are not going anywhere. And with the style of offense the team plays Rooster should stay as well. It would be even better if we could find a way to upgrade the 2 and 5 without moving Wil or Rooster, but I don’t see it happening. And I am becoming less optimistic by the day about Azu-especially with the time it’s taking him to get healthy.

  216. BigBlueAL

    ESPN2 on NBA Coast-to-Coast just showed the teams who are currently over the luxery tax and of the 6-8 teams who are currently over the luxery tax (forget the actual number) the Knicks were not one of them.

    Donnie Walsh is not only currently saving Dolan a boatload of money but he has also obviously greatly improved the team on the court. To think Dolan still probably would rather have Isiah running the team….

  217. Brian Cronin

    Well, it hasn’t happened yet, right? So I’d wait a little while before celebrating.

    That said, the signs sure are encouraging.

  218. ltmurray

    Brian Cronin: Well, it hasn’t happened yet, right? So I’d wait a little while before celebrating.That said, the signs sure are encouraging.   

    What hasn’t happened yet? What signs are encouraging? What’s a Cock Jowles?

  219. Brian Cronin

    I presume THCJ, who is Carmelo Anthony’s #1 naysayer, is celebrating the rumors that the Nets made a trade for two draft picks today so that they could include them with a package of Derrick Favors, Troy Murphy’s expiring contract and two draft picks for Carmelo Anthony, which is a deal Denver really ought to take.

  220. ltmurray

    Ok phew thanks Brian. I couldn’t remember which side THC was on, so I appreciate the clarification.

    At this point I just want a Melo deal to get done. Any deal. Even if he does go somewhere and sign an extension, I want to get the hell on with this season.

    He’d be a fun pickup at a high price, but cap space for a 5 might be more valuable in the long run. But why’d I even say that? This thread is 250+ and it’s been said dozens of times already.

    Just get me to tomorrow night so I can watch the team we have instead of speculating what team we might become. GO KNICKS!

  221. hoolahoop

    Since this is the Wilson Chandler thread, has anyone noticed that he now wears a mouth guard since his teeth got knocked out by D. Lee’s elbow?

  222. Z

    @153 Brian– I think the issue is whether teams can be successful devoting a vast majority of their payroll to only two or three players. The 2007 Spurs, the 2008 Celtics, and the 2009 Magic, among other recent teams, prove that you can in fact have success with two or three players dominating a majority of the payroll. Except for the very young teams in the league, there are a lot of examples of very competitive teams in recent years employing this “strategic sense”.

    And the Lakers didn’t really “do it right”. They were forced, by their star, to make an acquisition. They tried for Garnett but couldn’t get it done. They took the consolation prize, which happened to work out incredibly well for them. But it’s not like Kupchak targeted Gasol as the perfect sidekick to Kobe. Gasol just happened to be the player being dumped at the time, and Memphis was willing to take what the Lakers could offer.

    If there is a better player than Carmelo to spend Dolan’s money on, I am 100% for passing on Melo. But spending it on cheaper players who are also not as good, just to preserve flexibility, ignores the fact that the Knicks (under the current CBA) would still have flexibility (if not even more flexibility). Because of the soft cap, and the diverse pieces Walsh has assembled, the Knicks are able to absorb a max contract and still have pieces to make additions with.

    I think the question to consider is not how much cap space Anthony would cost us, but rather which of our current players Anthony would cost us. I’d be sorry to see Gallo go, and (dare I say) crushed to see Fields go. But Curry + Chandler + Randolph + Douglas? I’d expect Dolan would force Walsh to pull that trigger, and if he did, I think the Knicks would probably come out of it for the better, both short and long run.

  223. JK47

    I can’t help but think the Nets are being played for chumps in this whole thing.

    They’re the worst team in the Eastern Conference. Their alleged young franchise cornerstone (Brook Lopez) is having a godawful season and they would be giving up their only other decent asset who is 24 or under (Derrick Favors) plus a handful of draft picks.

    I think the Nets actually might be stupid enough to pull the trigger on this trade without signing Melo to an extension, only to watch him waltz across the river next July. If Melo signs the extension there, more power to ‘em, and we can move on.

    Win-win.

  224. ltmurray

    GHenman: Tied with Orlando for the fourth best record in the east!  

    Alright! So if the playoffs started tomorrow it’d be Knicks/Magic….I wonder who the Knicks would match up best against out of the top teams in the East.

    They beat the Bulls without Boozer or any of their top guys down the stretch. Hawks didn’t’ go so well and I guess we’ll find out about Boston and Miami this week!

    (sorry if I’ve offended anybody by talking playoffs this early.)

  225. latke

    Bruno Almeida: latke

    please refer to my post. THis is an absolute false dichotomy. If you have any hopes of keeping more than one of Fields, Gallinari, Chandler and Felton, then you want to get over the cap ASAP. To oversimplify things, a trade for carmelo (or any other longer contracts that put us over the cap this summer) is really more like we are trading whomever we send out for Carmelo, Felton, Gallinari and Chandler. Would you trade, say, chandler and randolph for those four?

  226. Nick C.

    hoolahoop: Since this is the Wilson Chandler thread, has anyone noticed that he now wears a mouth guard since his teeth got knocked out by D. Lee’s elbow?  (Quote)

    all this David Lee blood talk has made me realize that since the WC-Lee incident Lee has been less of himself whereas Chandler has been exceptionally efficient. Is it possible that there has been some strange transfusion where WC has developed some of the powers of David Lee while transferring some of his “powers” to Lee?

  227. SeeWhyDee77

    greatscott: This is why Lee is struggling. He has a huge gash in his arm and he has no strength in it and can’t mix it up inside at all.

    And still his #’s aren’t THAT bad. The last few box scores I looked at Lee got a double double and 4-5 assist in each 1.

    Nick C.:
    all this David Lee blood talk has made me realize that since the WC-Lee incident Lee has been less of himself whereas Chandler has been exceptionally efficient.Is it possible that there has been some strange transfusion where WC has developed some of the powers of David Lee while transferring some of his “powers” to Lee?  

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! Nice!!! Like a zombie ala “Dawn of the Dave”?

  228. chrisk06811

    did the nets just trade for the 1st rounder from Hou that we wanted?

    It seems the denver fan base is not high on fields…..they say he won’t play behind affalo, jr smith, etc. i don’t think they know he can play the 3.

  229. rama

    latke: please refer to my post. THis is an absolute false dichotomy. If you have any hopes of keeping more than one of Fields, Gallinari, Chandler and Felton, then you want to get over the cap ASAP. To oversimplify things, a trade for carmelo (or any other longer contracts that put us over the cap this summer) is really more like we are trading whomever we send out for Carmelo, Felton, Gallinari and Chandler. Would you trade, say, chandler and randolph for those four?  (Quote)

    latke – unless I’m really mistaken, you’re really mistaken. You don’t have to be over the cap to resign your own players. We don’t have to do anything to retain all of Fields, Gallo, Chandler, and Felton: we just resign them. The cap doesn’t apply to players you already control when their contracts expire. if we do nothing, we still can resign every single player we have, no matter how far that would put us over the cap.

  230. Z

    rama:
    unless I’m really mistaken, you’re really mistaken.You don’t have to be over the cap to resign your own players.We don’t have to do anything to retain all of Fields, Gallo, Chandler, and Felton: we just resign them.The cap doesn’t apply to players you already control when their contracts expire.if we do nothing, we still can resign every single player we have, no matter how far that would put us over the cap.  

    Yeah, but only if we do nothing. If we want to add a max contract, Latke is right. To use our cap space this summer, we’d have to renounce our free agents. Wilson Chandler has a $6.5 million cap hold, so to free up that money to sign a high priced free agent, we’d have to give up Chandler.

    If we bring in a max player via trade, though, before the deadline, then cap holds are moot, and we can go as far over the cap as we want in order to sign our own players.

    So there is a tactical advantage to getting it done before the deadline (something only Latke seems to acknowledge around here). That said, though, the new CBA, of course, makes any sort of planning moot. A hard cap changes everything.

  231. endyendy

    Hollinger’s Per Diem today discusses the positive/negative effects of Melo to New York. Doesn’t say much that hasn’t been said here but at least it’s a more mainstream reporter saying something other than “Carmelo makes the Knicks a contender.”

    On the Wilson Chandler front, he’s hardly comparable to Anthony in my mind, but still someone I’d prefer to keep around. In addition to the maturation of his game I’ve been struck by the fact that he doesn’t seem to care. I don’t mean that in the negative way, but in the way that when he hits the big shot, throws down the vicious dunk, makes the defensive stop and his teammates get hyped, he’s just sorta “yeah, whatever, it’s what I do,” while Ronny Turiaf has a fit in the background celebrating.

  232. latke

    rama:
    latke – unless I’m really mistaken, you’re really mistaken.You don’t have to be over the cap to resign your own players.We don’t have to do anything to retain all of Fields, Gallo, Chandler, and Felton: we just resign them.The cap doesn’t apply to players you already control when their contracts expire.if we do nothing, we still can resign every single player we have, no matter how far that would put us over the cap.  

    You are partly correct. You can go over the cap to sign your own players, but you cannot simultaneously sign free agents from other teams (otherwise we could have signed stoudemire then resigned David Lee). So, (and I know I’m oversimplifying this here), but what you’re saying when you say “save cap space” is that you are ready to give up on Fields/Felton/Gallo/Chandler. You would prefer to go out and sign other FAs, even though the net result is having fewer overall dollars to spend on players.

  233. latke

    Z:
    Yeah, but only if we do nothing. If we want to add a max contract, Latke is right. To use our cap space this summer, we’d have to renounce our free agents. Wilson Chandler has a $6.5 million cap hold, so to free up that money to sign a high priced free agent, we’d have to give up Chandler.If we bring in a max player via trade, though, before the deadline, then cap holds are moot, and we can go as far over the cap as we want in order to sign our own players.So there is a tactical advantage to getting it done before the deadline (something only Latke seems to acknowledge around here). That said, though, the new CBA, of course, makes any sort of planning moot. A hard cap changes everything.  

    Yay! someone understands me! I’m not crazy!

    Re: the hard cap — I really really doubt that would happen. The major engine that has brought the NBA to its level of popularity has been dynasties. It’s very difficult to have a dynasty with a hard cap. For example, the Lakers would not have been able to re-sign kobe. I think the “hard cap” threat is just something the owners are throwing out there to try to intimidate the players. I think behind the scenes the only thing the owners want to change is the percentages and the ways revenue is shared between players and between small and large markets.

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