Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, September 17, 2014

Grizzlies 98, Knicks 93

And now a reading from the Book of Knickerbocker here on the commencement of the season’s nominal second half and its lesson is so timely that it speaks to the night’s 98-93 defeat in Memphis and the season as a whole in equal parts. And the lesson is this: sometimes a first half can be butchered so thoroughly that even an impressive second half — one where the coach makes adjustments that had long been wanting, one where the players’ intensity and skill both reach a new plane — proves futile. In a year that’s already bore its way down a couple miles below ground, the Knicks dug a bit deeper tonight before a desperate attempt to scramble up the side ended the way you knew it would: with their faces full of dirt and a shovel-shaped welt on their butts.

Some thoughts, because we’re all adults here and that’s what we’re supposed to do at times like this:

  • There aren’t a whole lot of nice things to say about the first half of tonight’s game but credit to Mike Woodson for going small against the famously super-sized Grizzlies and staying small despite the early deficit.  The Knicks (obviously) don’t have the manpower to go match up with Memphis on the interior and Woody didn’t pretend they did — of the 46 possessions that Tyson Chandler played last night, only 3 of them featured another Knick taller than Carmelo Anthony.  Melo’s 42 (!) minutes almost all came at the four and it was precisely the quickness and perimeter spacing of the smaller lineup that keyed the Knicks rally back from a 13 point halftime hole.
  • Speaking of Melo, he chipped in 11 boards tonight as the Knicks (shockingly) outrebounded Memphis, 39-38.  The Knicks grabbed 33% of their own misses (an excellent percentage) while allowing Memphis second chances off of 28% of their misses.  One thing that sometimes goes unsaid in the big vs. small debate is that Carmelo is actually a better rebounder than Bargnani or Stoudemire, rendering any argument in favor of the big lineup as superficial as it is absurd.
  • Sporadic excellence from Tyson Chandler tonight.  He exploded out of the gate with an impressive early display on the glass and defending the rim before settling in (for the rest of the first half) to something closer to the workmanlike rut in which he’s been mired for much of this season (he finished with just 6 rebounds which is legitimately shocking since I’m pretty sure he had 4 on his first shift).  He did have another nice stretch in the second half that included a vintage dive to the rim and finish off the pick-and-roll but otherwise it was low-usage, high-efficiency stuff which has value but is a far cry from the franchise-altering impact that his first 18 months or so in New York seemed to promise.  The question is whether this is the result of an effort issue related to discontentment with the coach and his schemes or whether he’s physically limited and can only dial it up to eleven for a few minutes a night anymore.  The first one would be disappointing but ultimately curable (Hint!).  The second one would probably mean that the Tyson Chandler who was the most versatile and disruptive defensive force I’ve ever seen in a Knicks jersey is a thing of the past.  Which would suck.
  • STAT really had very little place in a game like this, his nominal size is fools gold against Memphis since he doesn’t have a prayer of checking either Gasol or Randolph on defense or on the glass.  Offensively, unless the Knicks planned on playing him at the five and using him in the pick-and-roll (which they basically never do anymore) he doesn’t have much value either — Memphis will happily concede a few mid-range spot-ups in the name of being able to load up the lane with big bodies.  I think it’s likely that if his minute count (23) had been inverted with Jeremy Tyler’s (9) the Knicks get a couple more stops, lose basically nothing on offense (STAT was 4/12) and very possibly win the game.
  • Tyler gets his own bullet point.  He’s not perfect but he’s our second-best big.  Criticizing Amar’e had always been something of an academic exercise because the Knicks lack of athletic bigs who could hold their own on defense meant that, as obvious as the flaws in STAT’s game might have been, there were always going to be significant minutes for him.  That’s no longer really true.  There’s no (basketball) reason not to give Tyler 15-20 minutes a night and use STAT for basically one shift per half as the center in a small-ball lineup.  The real worry is that when Bargnani comes back, Tyler’s minutes disappear entirely in which case the Knicks will almost certainly get noticeably worse.
  • Pablo Prigioni was fantastic tonight (with a suitably weird 7/10/5 line to show for it) and in a world that made sense would have officially taken Raymond Felton’s role as New York’s primary point guard option away from him.  I struggle to think of even one thing that Felton does better than Prigs at this point and the quickness and decisiveness of Prigioni’s piloting of the New York offense was the singularly notable development of the Knicks’ second-half comeback.  30 minutes is about as much as Prigs can give us in a night but he should be spending more and more of that time with the ball in his hands and should start to take some of the minutes Felton gets as the only PG on the floor.
  • Nobody was willing to tell Tim Hardaway, Jr. that he’s our second offensive option so he’s basically just decided it for himself and grabbed hold of that mantle.  He’s coupled his ability to get open for threes with an increasingly impressive slasher skillset in recent weeks.  He’s become J.R. without the headache and a more reliable jumper to boot; if he ever becomes an even slightly-below-average defender he’s going to be a long-term NBA starter.  I hope he’s still on the team in three days.
  • J.R. looks spooked and I hate it.  It’s one thing for him to pass more (and the criticism of him for passing off on the Knicks final meaningful possession are misplaced; the Grizzlies were HEAVILY overadjusting to him and in making the extra pass he gave Prigioni a clean look against a totally disorganized defense) but quite another for him to look like the reason he’s passing is that he doesn’t WANT to shoot anymore.  His brashness gets him in trouble but he also needs to be able to call it up at times or else he’s just another dime-a-dozen NBA wing who can’t defend and isn’t a particularly special jump-shooter.
  • I don’t know how much is on Shumpert and how much is on Woodson but you aren’t a top-flight NBA defender if you consistently help away from good shooters to double the high post no matter who the post player is.  My inclination is to think that this is mostly a scheme issue (JR Smith,* for example, left Mike Miller to double Zach Randolph, resulting in a kick-out and the game’s decisive three-pointer) but Shumpert is by far the most frequent culprit.  I’m growing concerned that Shumpert’s had a defensive scheme that is a horrid mismatch with his natural skillset so thoroughly hammered into his head by now that it’s become a part of his game.  Which would be bad news for everybody.

UPDATE:

*I originally and incorrectly attributed this mental lapse to Pablo Prigioni.  Thanks to Nick C. for the correction.

113 comments on “Grizzlies 98, Knicks 93

  1. Nick C.

    Um Prigioni was on Conley, JR left Miller that’s why Prigioni scrambled over from five feet away to a Miller who had moved about two inches in the preceding several seconds. Anyway it can’t be easy to write up about yet another bungled performance in a bungled season. Did this team really win 54 games last year with much of the same cast? Really? It all seems so far away.

  2. ephus

    Great analysis, except for this line:

    Prigioni, for example, left Mike Miller to double Zach Randolph, resulting in a kick-out and the game’s decisive three-pointer

    On that play (as was noted in the game thread), JR Smith was defending Mike Miller. JR sank into the lane to cover Z-Bo (who was already covered) and left Miller wide open. Miller hit the three to put Memphis up 94-93.

    JR then horribly missed the corner 3 that Melo set up.

    This is not a good time to be a Knick fan.

    Edit: Nick C pointed this out first.

  3. Kevin McElroy Post author

    Ephus,

    Yep, it’s corrected. Prigs had left Miller on a previous play to double Gasol who predictably passed off but (I think) Miller missed the 3. I think I conflated the two plays in my mind. Anyway I checked it and changed it.

  4. thenamestsam

    Dispiriting loss? Check.
    Unforgivable late game defensive breakdowns? Check.
    Awful play design and execution on a last minute possession out of a timeout? Check.
    That’s just an “Inexplicable use of big lineups when small lineups were working” away from hitting for the famed Mike Woodson Cycle. Same as it ever was. And of course Woodson’s job is secure because Knicks.

    As for that back-breaking Mike Miller 3 I think it’s really a scheme issue, but between the two players I’d say it’s more on Prigs. When Conley cut across the top of the lane after entering it to ZBo it looked like Prigs called out a switch to JR so he could stay in his help position. He certainly pointed at Conley coming across and stayed exactly where he was. When Conley sprinted down the lane (very heady play by the way), they probably should have switched back, but it happened pretty fast and I can’t say JR was wrong to stay with what was then his man. Prigs was just being way over-agressive with his help defense and left JR in a total 2v1 on the other wing. Either Conley or Miller was going to get a wide open look if they played it smart, and they did. Another game that it felt like we were a single timely play away from winning and didn’t.

    Going to be on eggshells the next two days. Feels like the odds of us doing something between “pretty dumb” and “extraordinarily dumb” are about 70-30 in favor.

  5. DBQ

    It’s pathetic that I’m even saying this, but I enjoyed the comeback in the second half. It looked like the team actually cared. Even though they lost.

    Nick, 54 wins seems soooooo far away.

  6. thenamestsam

    That Miller 3 is at the 1:55 mark here for anyone who wants to see it again. Definitely not on JR’s shoulders. He’s guarding Miller at the start of the play, but at least he’s guarding someone at the end. Prigs is completely 100% in no man’s land.

    He also indisputably is not doubling Zach Randolph, no matter what else you may think about the play, he’s following Conley’s cut.

  7. ephus

    I took another look. JR Smith was following Conley, but Hardaway was already tagging Conley (having left Courtney Lee). So the Knicks had five defenders in the paint while Miller and Lee were all alone beyond the arc.

    It’s fair to say that was a scheme breakdown.

    This is not a good time to be a Knick fan.

  8. lavor postell

    Reading this recap today I’m happy I missed last night’s game. The fact that so many here are debating the stupidity of some kind of switch that occurred yesterday on a back breaking three sounds like a conversation we’ve had on repeat this entire season.

  9. Garson

    My pregame pick for game results
    1. Knicks Blowout Loss – Fire Woodson
    2. Knicks Blowout Win – Rest starters
    3. Knicks competative Win – Playoffs!
    4. Knicks competative loss – Woodson Lives On.

    At this point, its sad to say im rooting for a blowout loss over a win.

  10. Owen

    “One thing I didn’t mention above was that Nick Calathes would make the Knicks materially better which is very very sad.”

    I thought the same thing. Granted, his numbers aren’t amazing. But he looked like a competent NBA point guard last night. He is the kind of guy who demonstrates the foolishness of paying Jeff Teague 8 million a.in addition to giving up assets to get him. Basically comparable production for a tiny fraction of the cost.

  11. yellowboy90

    Why the heck do you send help for a former defensive player of the year in a one on one post match up? It makes no sense to me. Let Tyson do his thing and let the chips fall. Did the Indy series change everything?

  12. yellowboy90

    Having been a fan of Nick’s he has always been a good pg he just had shortcomings on D, as a ft shooter, and from 3 at times but he was great at UF but didn’t want to stay. It worked out for the best though, Nick got paid and Parsons developed his ball handling becoming more of a point forward in Calathes absence. Overseas Nick worked on his D and was voted defensive player of the year. He is a younger bigger version of Prigs that was easily acquired over the summer because Dallas wanted to go into a different direction. He may never be a world beater but I think he will always be a solid number 2 guy that can start for stretches.

  13. Havi havi

    We’ve learning that small-ball and last season’s success are nothing more than fool’s gold. You cannot win basketball games without having an interior presence. The Knicks have no one to go to for efficient points in the paint – who isn’t a completely 1-dimensional offensive player (Thanks Amar’e!)

  14. massive

    I dunno, I think it’s becoming increasingly obvious that Tyson Chandler consistently gets torched in one on one match ups. I usually just count two when any post up player has Tyson one on one. He just always seems to give up a bucket. The guy is just bad at stopping guys in the post from what I’ve seen.

    Are there any numbers to support this claim? I might go look into that.

  15. flossy

    I watched the first ~18 horrible minutes of this game, said “fuck this garbage, I’m switching to House of Cards,” watched an episode, checked the score out of curiosity, saw that we’d made an improbable comeback to hold a slim lead with 5 minutes left, and then tuned back in to watch the entirely predictable meltdown. I think my +/- for the night had to be around -20, so for that I apologize. Next time I’ll just leave well enough alone.

  16. ephus

    Mike Vaccaro did a good job in the Post getting the Knicks to explain what happened on that Mike Miller play. Short answer is that it was JR Smith’s mistake. Longer answer is that the Knicks don’t know how to play straight up defense after years of switching and doubling everything.

  17. er

    OT: Boy is this Russia showing in the Olympics worse than the 04 Americn Basketball in Athens. I would say it is worse because it was on Russian soil.

  18. thenamestsam

    Mike Vaccaro did a good job in the Post getting the Knicks to explain what happened on that Mike Miller play. Short answer is that it was JR Smith’s mistake. Longer answer is that the Knicks don’t know how to play straight up defense after years of switching and doubling everything.

    Have to love this gem from our brilliant strategist of a head coach: “It cost us. Up two, a two doesn’t hurt us.” That’s right folks, giving up the tying 2-pointer with less than a minute left doesn’t hurt us.

  19. Hubert

    Hold on a second, Kevin.

    Tyson Chandler, who was the most versatile and disruptive defensive force I’ve ever seen in a Knicks jersey

    Is this because you are too young to have seen Oakley and Mason in their primes? Or are you going there?

  20. JK47

    The Knicks are 25th in the NBA in defensive rating. They’re 28th in eFG% allowed and 30th in FT/FGA. The roster is littered with terrible defenders, playing a terrible defensive scheme devised by a terrible coach. But it’s nothing new. The Knicks have played below-average defense or flat-out bad defense every single year since Jeff Van Gundy left, with the one exception of the 2011-2012 season, when they somehow ranked 5th.

    Here’s the Knicks’ defensive rating rankings over the last 13 years, going backwards starting from this year:
    25, 18, 5, 22, 27, 23, 29, 25, 26, 25, 15, 23, 18

    In the words of Clay Davis, that is some shameful shit. The Knicks play terrible defense year after year after year after year after year after year. I’m amazed people are on here dissecting one terrible defensive play in last night’s game; it’s like analyzing a single raindrop in a hurricane. Sure, somebody blew an assignment and the other team scored– same story since 2002 when Othella Harrington, Clarence Weatherspoon and Shandon Anderson were the ones blowing the assignment.

    This team is a lost cause, and I don’t mean just this season’s team, I’m talking about The New York Knicks in general. To root for them is to root for bad basketball. They’ve turned me into a full-time troll; I’m at the point where I actually get disappointed when they win. They DESERVE to lose.

    We had our glory days 20 years ago, and those are gone forever. The Gin Blossoms aren’t getting back together, Friends isn’t going back on the air, dial-up internet isn’t making a comeback and the Knicks are not going to properly defend a pick and roll.

  21. d-mar

    I don’t know about you guys, but the idea of acquiring Rondo (which is probably unlikely anyway) scares the crap out of me. Coming off major knee surgery, possibly on the downside of his career, reported malcontent, etc.

    I can just see a few years down the road the Knicks wallowing in mediocrity and the Celtics sitting with dynamic young players, a zillion draft picks and a revived Shump and 6th man of the year TH Jr.

    I just shuddered…

  22. lavor postell

    I feel like I defend Melo a lot for the criticisms he gets for his on the court play and production, but if he’s seriously backing Mike Woodson to remain as the head coach and pushing the Knicks into making stupid personnel decisions he is an idiot. It’s stupid for the Knicks to be held hostage to Carmelo’s whims and fancies, but if he’s staunchly a supporter of Mike Woodson that’s a direct indictment on what he believes constitutes as a winning and functional organization.

    Maybe he’s just playing the Knicks (which I don’t think he’s savvy enough to pull off) or being a good company man to both MSG while helping out a CAA compatriot (which I firmly believe is the case), but if he can help run D’Antoni out of town his allegiance to one of the worst coaches in the league is so fucking stupid. I really wish the Knicks would ship him out for picks and young guys on rookie contracts or something, but I’m pretty sure this will end with Melo signing a 5 year, $115m “discount” contract and then maxing out Rondo in 2015.

  23. lavor postell

    Funny story I heard about Rondo from the weekend from my friend’s uncle was how apparently Rondo is a hard worker, but for some reason never really works on his jumper which they’ve wanted him to do for like 5 straight seasons. Fucking mind boggling. Do not want a guy I’ve always suspected was overrated and is coming off of major knee surgery.

  24. Kevin McElroy Post author

    Hold on a second, Kevin.

    Tyson Chandler, who was the most versatile and disruptive defensive force I’ve ever seen in a Knicks jersey

    Is this because you are too young to have seen Oakley and Mason in their primes? Or are you going there?

    Hubert,

    I was about 8-12 years old for Oak and Mason’s primes. Oak is my favorite Knick ever. I used the word’s “versatile” and “disruptive” instead of “best” for a reason. Oakley and Mason both locked down one player better than Chandler even at his best. Chandler’s middle linebacker/free safety style — at its most potent — is something different than anything I’ve ever seen from a Knick.

  25. johnno

    “I can just see a few years down the road the Knicks wallowing in mediocrity”
    Why do you have such confidence that the Knicks will improve to the point at which they are mediocre?

  26. Donnie Walsh

    Is this because you are too young to have seen Oakley and Mason in their primes?

    I can’t for the life of me imagine that there are any Knick fans out there that weren’t alive for the Oakley/Mason days. It defies all logic.

  27. Hubert

    Fair enough if you were too young. Charles Oakley was a lot more than a guy who locked down one player. He was the best help/team defender I ever saw. Much better than Chandler, if only because his motor was far superior. There was not a single spot on the basketball court that Charles Oakley couldn’t or wouldn’t disrupt. The quintessential play that defines his versatility would be the final play of game 7, 1993 Eastern Conference Finals. Knicks up 1 (after Ewing’s put back dunk), defending Indiana, clock winding down, Reggie escapes multiple curls and ends up with a wide open look at the top of the key until Oakley closes him down hard on the perimiter (seemingly arriving from nowhere) and forces an airball that sealed the victory. He defended everything. Much better overall than Chandler, in my opinion. Better, more versatile, and more disruptive. Not to mention he scared the shit out of people. I’ve been watching opponents run dunk contests down the lane with Tyson Chandler present for 3 years now. Even in his DPOY season.

    Mason’s versatility is mostly attributable to the range of players he could guard (from Scottie Pippen to Hakeem Olajuwon).

  28. Owen

    “Mike Vaccaro did a good job in the Post getting the Knicks to explain what happened on that Mike Miller play. Short answer is that it was JR Smith’s mistake. ”

    Yes, definitely on JR.

    We need to get Mike K working on getting an adjusted viewer +/- leaderboard up.

    Maybe it’s us you know? Got to look at the data….

  29. Owen

    “OT: Boy is this Russia showing in the Olympics worse than the 04 Americn Basketball in Athens. I would say it is worse because it was on Russian soil.”

    Suck it Putin.

  30. yellowboy90

    @ 27

    If my free safety didn’t make a play on the ball as much as Tyson looks at penetrators lay the ball up he would get a firm talking too to make a play on the ball when it is in the air.

  31. Hubert

    He was the best help/team defender I ever saw.

    On the Knicks, at least.

    Who do you guys think was a better team defender, Oakley or Garnett? Both the recency bias and my intense hatred for Kevin Garnett cloud my judgement.

  32. yellowboy90

    I put blame on Jr and Prigs. What was brigs doing? If he was actually on his man I doubt Jr tries to defend Conley as he cuts down the lane. Jr still gets 90% of the blame for once again not playing situation bball

  33. JK47

    Not only was Charles Oakley a great defender, he also had the immune system of a normal functioning human being.

  34. ephus

    Latest rumor is Shumpert & Felton to the Clippers for Collison plus ____. The Trade Machine shows that Matt Barnes makes the salaries balance.

    Collison is not a strong defender and has a player option on next season at $2.0 million.

    Barnes is signed through June 2015 with a team option for 2015-16 at $3.5 million.

    Trade probably helps both teams.

  35. Brian Cronin

    The Collisson rumor is just so…blah. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I prefer it to adding Teague for multiple years (and giving up real assets) but man, what’s the point of marginally improving a team that’s 13 games under .500?

  36. ephus

    Isola just tweeted that the mystery Clipper would be Reggie Bullock. Makes me like the trade more for the Knicks, since they would be taking back only $3 million in salary. Bullock is on Rookie scale, which creates team options for 2015-16 and 2016-17.

  37. flossy

    Why the hell would the Clippers want Shumpert and Felton? Actually, forget it, let’s not ask questions and just do the damn thing. Darren Collison is much better than Raymond Felton, and the opportunity to add Matt Barnes to a roster that already includes JR Smith, Artest and Kenyon Martin is just too good to pass up.

  38. flossy

    The Collisson rumor is just so…blah. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I prefer it to adding Teague for multiple years (and giving up real assets) but man, what’s the point of marginally improving a team that’s 13 games under .500?

    I’d rather not send Denver a lottery pick this year, and I physically recoil at watching Raymond Felton play basketball, so this trade would help in both respects without saddling us with another bloated, long term contract.

  39. Brian Cronin

    Isola just tweeted that the mystery Clipper would be Reggie Bullock. Makes me like the trade more for the Knicks, since they would be taking back only $3 million in salary. Bullock is on Rookie scale, which creates team options for 2015-16 and 2016-17.

    Adding Bullock does make it a lot more intriguing.

  40. thenamestsam

    Latest rumor is Shumpert & Felton to the Clippers for Collison plus ____.

    My take on the trade is that if the blank is Bullock or another young asset (Clips don’t really have another one), I think it’s really good. Collison is better than Felton and as long as the loss of Shump is offset by other future potential I think we come out ahead (even if I do still suspect Shump will look a lot better on another team). If the blank is some old salary (like Barnes) then I don’t think the Felton to Collison upgrade is really worth paying Shump. I’d rather rebuild, and if that’s off the table, I’d rather fire Woodson (into the sun) and see if a new coach can make him into anything before selling him for such a small short term gain.

  41. Brian Cronin

    “Check it out, Melo, you can’t leave now, we just added the Clippers’ back-up point guard!”

  42. yellowboy90

    if Bullock and Collinson comes with Barnes I would still do it. The clips have been after Shump for a while if I remember correctly. Bullock was a pretty good defender in college and can possibly grow into a 3 unlike Shump. I do expect Shump to get better some as well but how can you do better than this?

  43. ephus

    Why the hell would the Clippers want Shumpert and Felton?

    Because JJ Redick is out for the next month. Doc Rivers does not want to be tied to Jamal Crawford’s defense for 36 minutes per game. The Clippers would have a month to see if Chris Paul can make Shumpert work on offense. If Shumpert regains offensive skills, he is the Clippers 4th guard for the playoff run. If Shumpert does not, he is a defensive situational sub.

    I cannot imagine Felton (2014 version) getting any playing time once Redick returns.

  44. JK47

    This trade can’t be possible, because it is the kind of trade a smart person might make. Bullock is in the first year of a rookie scale contract. This has got to be a typo.

  45. DBQ

    Bullock’s game is basically the same as THJ. But he is a player with upside. Cheap too. Collison is an upgrade. Felton/Shump need a change of scenery. Do it

  46. yellowboy90

    Bullock game is similar to Hardaway but he is bigger longer and had a better defensive rep. Maybe he just isn’t a player but you have to take the chance don’t you. Also, I think Bullock is more of a natural 3 size wise and Hardaway is a 2 guard. The way Hardaway and Jr was running off screens in the 4th would be the ideal scenario for both.

  47. Totes McGoats

    This trade can’t be possible, because it is the kind of trade a smart person might make. Bullock is in the first year of a rookie scale contract. This has got to be a typo.

    Thas a move I can get behind. Collison’s a lil small but he plays hard and he gives the starting 5 another threat to be concerned with considering that he can get in the lane and dish to open shooters better than any PG on our roster

    “Bullock’s game is basically the same as THJ. But he is a player with upside. Cheap too. Collison is an upgrade. Felton/Shump need a change of scenery. Do it”

    Yea but Bullock’s a better defender. I would say THJ is closer to Earl Smith while Bullock’s closer to Bruce Bowen. They’re both horrible ballhandlers though.

    Also..if we go through with this trade, as we should even if Barnes is included, then we can officially say goodbye to the 2 PG look. Collison’s not quite strong enough. I would like to see what a Prigs/Udrih 2 PG alignment would bring though.

    I would think that if that move is made that the team has to start Chandler/Melo/MWP/Bullock/Collison. I don’t know where Barnes fits because I don’t like MWP or Barnes as small ball 4′s for stretches. MWP is strong enough but that would probably mean starting Barnes or Earl which I don’t like either. But still if that trade is available then Mills should jump on it for the simple fact we get 2 youngins and another defender in Barnes for basically Felton and Shumpert.

  48. lavor postell

    Would give us a pair of nice perimeter shooters as well in Bullock and THJ to space the floor around Melo as well. Collison might not be more than average, but I don’t think it will take much to approximate Felton’s offense and it isn’t possible for their to be a worse defensive point guard in the league than him. Collison, Barnes and Bullock if that’s the package would make us a hell of a lot more athletic and suck less. That’s a start.

    I’d rather have Willie Green than Barnes since that contract expires next summer as well.

  49. ptmilo

    With Bullock, the deal is ok, particularly getting Felton’s $4m off the books in 2016. Odd fact: Hardaway is averaging 4.0 Reb + Assists per 36. If the season ended today, I think this would be the lowest in Knicks history for anyone playing meaningful (say, 500) minutes — edging out Novak.

  50. Zanzibar

    Clips want Shump because of Reddick’s injury and poor play of Barnes/Dudley. They’re in win now mode so probably willing to part with draft pick. They also have 2.6m trade exception. How about this:

    Knicks receive Lowry/Bullock
    Raptors receive Clips 2014 pick/Knicks 2018 pick/Felton/MWP/Jamison
    Clips receive Shumpert/?

    Re ? question mark. We could send Kmart and/or Prigs via trade exception. Or swap MWP and one of those 2 in trade. Here is trade not including trade exception part. http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=mjvxjb6

  51. lavor postell

    Brooklyn apparently willing to deal their disabled player exception for Jordan Hill which will run them a total cost of $17m. Anybody know what they’ll be spending for the season now on the team?

  52. Donnie Walsh

    Collison and Bullock for Shumpert and Felton, huh?

    This seems like not only the best trade that’s been batted about so far but an actual good trade. What?? (I guess I give it a 10% chance of actually happening:)

    And Collison is intriguing. Is 26 too young to be considered a journeyman? If he’s traded, he’ll be on his fifth team in five years.

  53. ephus

    According to Woj, if the Nets complete the deals for Thorton and Hill, the total bill (salary and tax) will be over $210 million.

    The Nets are trying to built a fan base NOW. They see this money as an investment. And they clearly have a very small window. As noted above, the Nets have no first round pick in 2014, 2016 and 2018. In 2015, the Hawks have swap rights. In 2017, the Celtics have swap rights. So it is likely that the Nets will not have a top 15 pick for the next five years.

  54. mase

    “Knicks receive Lowry/Bullock
    Raptors receive Clips 2014 pick/Knicks 2018 pick/Felton/MWP/Jamison
    Clips receive Shumpert/?”

    Don’t like it…clips giving up too much… We give up too much for half a season of Lowry.

    How about..
    Houston gets Felton,Tyson, shump
    Boston get Asik,Lin, /2018 first from nyk
    Nyk get rondo, Wallace

  55. mj1

    You know, I believe that Jason Kidd was so good behind the scenes with the NYK that he actually made Woody look like a better coach than he is. It’s no surprise that his influence is showing up with the Nets big time. 90% of the above article boils down to Woody and the fact that it’s time for him to go. Without the damnable switching, the NYK win this game.

  56. lavor postell

    So we give up Tyson, Shump and a 2018 pick for the right to max out coming off of ACL surgery Rondo and take on 10m until 2016 Wallace? That sounds terrible. I also think you’d get a better deal trading directly with Houston then bringing Boston into the equation. Lin + Asik expiring in ’15 even with their ridiculous contracts for Tyson, Shump, Felton would be better value.

  57. lavor postell

    Idk but I def don’t want Rondo and certainly not at the cost of Wallace. Maybe under the old CBA it wouldn’t matter as much, but with the current restrictions albatross contracts like that are brutal.

  58. lavor postell

    I guess I’m not most people but if there’s one thing to take away from Boston’s trade with Brooklyn this summer is that Ainge knows how to milk what he has. That is looking increasingly like one of the most disastrous in NBA history and I’d like for the Knicks to stop being patsies for GM’s like Ujiri, Morey and Ainge to pilfer from when they so desire.

  59. yellowboy90

    The real question is would or could they get a three team deal and bring in lowry with Collinson and Bullock going to Toronto and a protected 2018 1st.

  60. hoolahoop

    As long as Woodson remains coach, any trade, especially role player swaps, are completely inconsequential.
    As was mentioned here before, keeping Woodson is an insult to knicks fans.

    BOYCOTT MSG.

  61. Brian Cronin

    What is the obsession with Lowry for half a season, to get in the playoffs?

    The only way they can get Lowry moving forward is to trade for him, since the only way they could re-sign him would be to get his Bird Rights. So if you like Lowry over the next four years or so, you’d need to trade for him now.

  62. Donnie Walsh

    Of the 4 PGs whose names have been thrown around this week, for the Knicks needs and interests, I’d rank them:

    Collison
    Lowry
    Teague
    Rondo

    Collison is good, cheap, and comes with another asset (and sheds NY of Felton)
    Lowry is better, but is expensive and costs assets
    Teague is mediocre, expensive, and costs assets
    Rondo is injured, expensive, and costs a lot of assets

    The problem in all of this is Carmelo Anthony. Because of him, NY will make a bad trade this week instead of a good trade. Without Anthony in the picture, the Collison trade is a no-brainer (if it’s really on the table). It’s a move toward life after Anthony, which will hopefully come sooner rather than later.

  63. DRed

    The Clippers deal isn’t bad (Collison is an upgrade on the penguin, and Bullock might turn into an okay player), but it’s a shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic type move. Aside from trading Melo or Chandler I don’t see us doing anything that makes a real difference either now or for the future.

  64. DRed

    You know, I believe that Jason Kidd was so good behind the scenes with the NYK that he actually made Woody look like a better coach than he is

    He was also really good in front of the scenes until his tank hit empty. People laughed at me and Jowles for saying he was really valuable last season, but look at us now.

  65. er

    The problem in all of this is Carmelo Anthony. Because of him, NY will make a bad trade this week instead of a good trade. Without Anthony in the picture, the Collison trade is a no-brainer (if it’s really on the table). It’s a move toward life after Anthony, which will hopefully come sooner rather than later.

    Tell us how you really feel hahaha. I think the trade will be done regardless

  66. tastycakes

    I know you guys can’t actually make these trades — thank Christ — but STOP INCLUDING FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICKS IN YOUR FAKE TRADES

    Seriously, you give up first rounders when you’re a fringe contender looking to go over the top, not when you’re a 30 win team looking to sneak into the playoffs. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. No more picks! If there’s gonna be any future in NY, some big part of it is going to come through the draft.

  67. mase

    ‘Of the 4 PGs whose names have been thrown around this week, for the Knicks needs and interests, I’d rank them”

    Lin has been thrown around too.

  68. lavor postell

    I kind of imagine thinking of the names being thrown around as Mills and Houston taking turns playing darts with a board of all the league’s point guards and just inquiring into whoever they hit on their turns

  69. BigBlueAL

    TH Jr reminds me of a more athletic Hubert Davis. Great shooters, decent off the dribble (TH Jr obviously the much better athlete). Both with decent size but not strong enough to defend bigger guards. Neither rebound or pass well.

    Hopefully TH Jr develops his game more (I certainly think he will) but right now I look at him as Hubert Davis with athleticism.

  70. BigBlueAL

    Also this proposed trade with the Clippers is to good to be true. It would actually be a pretty smart trade for the Knicks. Giving up Shump would hurt some but by now its clear TH Jr is the SG of the future not Shump and getting Bullock back would be essentially getting a taller/bigger Shump.

    Getting rid of Felton and his contract would be the big bonus plus Collison is decent and probably underpaid thru next season. Dont think it will help the Knicks make the playoffs this season much but it helps them long-term salary cap wise.

  71. BigBlueAL

    Just read these 2 tweets from Marc Stein:

    ESPN has learned Knicks are telling teams who want Shumpert: it’ll cost a 1st round pick or you have to take back Felton.

    To sum up: If Knicks can convince Clips to trade them Collison AND take back Felton, they’ve pulled off a Trade Deadline Week upset

  72. lavor postell

    Wait so the Knicks are actually valuing what little assets and leverage they have remaining? That’s refreshing.

  73. Brian Cronin

    I think that the best sign that the Collison deal is a good one is that apparently LA keeps trying to move the pieces around, like trying to make it Udrih instead of Felton and trying to take Bullock out of it.

  74. Donnie Walsh

    I don’t think the Lin rumor was serious.

    Collison holds a player option for next year at $1.9 mil. I don’t follow the Clips (or the market) that closely. Is he likely to opt out, and if so is he due for a significant raise?

    (Also, what do we know about “Jordan Hamilton”, the rumored addition to a potential Shumpert for Faried trade?)

  75. er

    Check out this morbid list made by someone on RealGM

    This is sad

    This is sad

    As I took extra time to review, it’s actually 14 games the Knicks have lost in the final minutes.

    For those scoring at home, the team is 13 games under .500.

    Oct. 31 — at Bulls (82-81 L): Derrick Rose hit a running teardrop over the outstretched arm of Tyson Chandler with 6 seconds left.

    Nov. 14 — vs Rockets (106-103 L): Carmelo Anthony’s Hack-A-Dwight with 1:36 left triggered a rule that, with under two minutes, awards two free throws and possession.

    Nov. 20 — vs Pacers (103-96 OT L): Iman Shumpert fouled Paul George on a three-point shot with 9.2 seconds left in regulation.

    Nov. 29 — at Nuggets (97-95 L): Carmelo dribbled down the court, went isolation and had his turnaround jumper blocked by Randy Foye.

    Dec. 1 — vs Pelicans (103-99 L): The Knicks led 93-88 with 6:42 to go, but then a soft defense allowed the Pelicans to score 10 straight points, led by Tyreke Evans.

    Dec. 13 — at Celtics (90-86 L): The Knicks led by 11 points in the fourth quarter, but once again got soft defensively as the Celtics rallied for 10 straight points.

    Dec. 16 — vs Wizards (102-101 L): Bradley Beal drove right by Beno Udrih for the game-winning layup. Udrih did not use the foul to give and no help came over. Then, with 6.2 seconds left, the Knicks did not use their final timeout and instead Carmelo rushed an off-balance three.

    Jan. 3 — at Rockets (102-100 L): Just weeks after Andrea Bargnani did it, JR Smith, off an offensive rebound and a chance to re-set the offense, fired an open three with 19 seconds left and the score tied at 100. Smith said he thought the Knicks were trailing by two.

    Jan. 22 – vs 76ers (110-106 L): The Knicks trailed by two with under two minutes to play when Thaddeus Young hit an open three. It was a play Mike Woodson later admitted was “botched up” by his defense.

    Feb. 3 — vs Bucks (101-98 L): Brandon Knight dribbled…

  76. er

    cont’d

    Feb. 3 — vs Bucks (101-98 L): Brandon Knight dribbled down the court against soft defense and drilled the game-winner over Raymond Felton with 1.4 second left.

    Feb. 5 — vs. Trail Blazers (94-90 L): With the Knicks trailing 89-87, LaMarcus Aldridge, who was ineffective for most of the game, nailed a tough turnaround jumper over Chandler with 35 seconds left.

    Feb. 12 — vs Kings (106-101 OT L): The Knicks led this game 93-88 with 1:27 left, but Jimmer Fredette hit an open three to pull the Kings to within two.

    Feb. 18 — at Grizzlies (98-93 L): With the Knicks up 93-91, Prigs left Mike Miller alone for a game-winning three with 45.9 seconds left.

    I think this helps to explain why the Knicks are actually 7th in score differential but 11th in standings

  77. domiknick

    So, as the potential first move of the Steve Mills era looms, this should tell us a lot about who we’re dealing with, yes? The original proposed deal for Lowry earlier in the year was already shot down under his watch (reportedly by Dolan, but who knows what the real story is; all we know for sure is, a deal in which we would have given up too many assets didn’t take place), and now whatever happens between now and tomorrow…

  78. nicos

    Sorry, that Miller three is on Prigs. He’s the guy the starts the whole mess by leaving Conley to help on Randolph. JR still should have stuck with Miller as a two doesn’t hurt you as much as a three there but Prigioni completely took himself out of the play- he didn’t aggressively double which might have made the pass back to Miller more difficult nor was he in position to defend either Conley’s cut or a Miller three.

  79. DRed

    Hubert Davis is a pretty solid comp for THJ, although Hubert wasn’t this horrible on defense. For the love of god, just fire Woodson already and bring in someone who can teach a defense.

  80. ephus

    Does LA have a first round pick?

    Clippers cannot trade their 2014 or 2016 first round pick because they traded their 2015 first round pick (without protection) to Boston for Doc Rivers.

  81. BigBlueAL

    Speaking of Hubert Davis (since I did bring him up originally) could his 2 ft’s vs the Bulls in Game 5 be considered the clutchest in Knicks history?? Considering the opponent, score and pressure the Knicks were under that series (and really that entire season) I think they might have been.

  82. Totes McGoats

    Lemme say this about Lowry. He is for the most part a serviceable PG having a really good season in his contract year. Before this season he never really stood out. While he’s always been a better defender than Felton, I do see a lot of similarities. Lowry’s 27- same age as Felton when he 1st became a Knick. Felton looked great that 1st year cuz D’Antoni gave him the ball…for the most part. Lowry looks great cuz Casey has given him the ball. But do we really think Lowry’s gonna play this well going forward playing off Melo and with a fat contract? I’m not saying Lowry’s not an upgrade right now, I’m just saying that we shouldn’t be duped by his career year. At 27 no one should be sure that his play should continue this ascent. He really hasn’t gotten the rock til this year. If he was younger I wouldn’t be as skeptical. For the money, Lowry should be a last option. Teague as well. I mean if you’re gonna spend money at the PG spot, see if u can pry Holiday from NO. I like the Collison idea because he can match Lowry’s production or get close 2 it for way less. Regardless of if Melo stays or goes, 2015 is the year our cap situation becomes flexible again. So do u run the risk of overpaying Lowry for the next few years or do u give that money to a player who has more time to improve? Again..i’m not against Lowry per se, I just don’t think it’s a smart move if it’s the 1st option.

  83. ephus

    Alan Hahn was the author of the list of heartbreaking Knick losses.

    I don’t think that Darren Collison is a solution. I think he is a replacement who is signed for less money and for less time than Felton. 2015 cap room is good.

    I have lost my faith that Shumpert will ever be a strong contributor in New York. He needs a fresh start – and I do not think a new coach is enough. There seems to be a beef between Shumpert and Dolan.

  84. JK47

    Anybody care to guess what kind of contract Collison might command when he opts out of his deal, and whether or not the Knicks would be able to re-sign him? If you can bring him back at a reasonable price, say on a 3-year deal, he’s a perfectly fine stopgap PG starter who can keep the position from black hole status for a couple of years, then slide into a backup position if the Knicks were ever to acquire a franchise type point guard.

  85. thenamestsam

    he’s a perfectly fine stopgap PG starter

    I think Collison is potentially getting a little overrated here just because everyone is so desperate to get rid of Ray. He shoots pretty well, but he’s a bad defender and PG is very deep around the league. He’s not starting now and it’s not like he’s one of the 2 or 3 best backups either. He’d be without a doubt one of the 10 worst starting PGs in the league as soon as he got here. That’s better than what we have…but not much more than that. He’s a fodder guy, not someone you sign for 3 years.

  86. Donnie Walsh

    Well, the good thing about having no assets is that it limits the number of horrible deals you can make at the deadline.

  87. Frank

    I don’t think that Darren Collison is a solution. I think he is a replacement who is signed for less money and for less time than Felton. 2015 cap room is good.

    Collison is not a good player but I don’t think there’s any question he’s better than Felton at this point in their careers. FWIW he has a PER in the 16.5 range, a TS the last 2 years at 57.5, an almost 3-1 assist to TO ratio, and is a career 36.3% shooter from deep. And he can’t possibly be a worse defender than Felton. That might be good enough to get us into the playoffs this year. The fact that he expires earlier is a huge bonus.

    I have lost my faith that Shumpert will ever be a strong contributor in New York. He needs a fresh start – and I do not think a new coach is enough. There seems to be a beef between Shumpert and Dolan.

    I have to agree with ephus. I love Shump but he’s completely lost confidence on both sides of the ball. It will take a massive development undertaking to get it back. He is so hesitant on the offensive end – afraid to shoot because he’s been shooting so poorly, afraid to drive because he’s so poor finishing around the rim. His usage is down to 13.7 and has been dropping since his rookie year — some of that might be on his teammates or Woodson for not getting him the ball, but a lot of it is that he’s just afraid to shoot.

    On defense he’s a good 1-on-1 defender and decent in the passing lanes, but is not a good team defender, not a smart defender, and overall certainly is not the defensive force we were all hoping he might be.

    That said – he has potential. If you’re going to trade him it has to be for more than a Felton salary dump and a below-average starting PG. We need to get either a bonafide player (like Jared Dudley) or a prospect (like Bullock) back at the very least, if not some draft picks of some kind as well. And no Matt Barnes, who’s been beyond awful and has no upside.

  88. mase

    Ephus makes a convincing argument about Lowry being in a contract year but I don’t think any player outside of cp3 is a home run.

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