Comments on: Goodbye-ee Part 1: Felton and Randolph

By: StevenU

StevenU — Sat, 26 Feb 2011 04:48:38 +0000

All true-and all playing off the greatest player ever to play-Jordan’s impact on Pippen’s numbers was enormous and undeniable

By: Owen

Owen — Sat, 26 Feb 2011 00:52:52 +0000

“Starks, like Mason and Oakley was the type of player whose contribution can not be measured in stats.”

I don’t know. Charles Oakley was the best rebounder on, and played the second most minutes for, the best defensive team of all time. And he played the fourth most minutes for the second best team. To me, there is plenty of evidence that his game was ugly but amazingly effective, especially given how the game was refereed back then.

As for Pippen, it’s pretty clear from the numbers that he was a lot more than your average second banana. He was an all time great. His numbers put Carmelo’s to shame. And the numbers he put up when Jordan left are some of the best by a small forward not named lebron or Bird. Career offensive rating of 108 to Carmelo’s 107, career defensive rating of 102 to Melo’s 107. And that’s with a lot of bad years at the end. Vintage Pippen was 94-5, 110orating-98drating*league-leading, 21-8-5 with 3 steals per game. Those are just crazy numbers.

By: StevenU

StevenU — Sat, 26 Feb 2011 00:12:55 +0000

@Caleb, the motor comment that was not my thought, I was repeating what I’d read Dantoni said about him. I love AR and think throwing him in that deal was incredibly stupid. I think at age 21 with his height, athletic ability, and skills you simply do not give up on him till you have exhausted every avenue to bring out his game. I wrote here before: It is much easier to teach a talented player to reign in his game than to expand it and I fully expect him to blossom as an NBA player-just wish it would have been here.
(And I have league pass and watched him a lot prior to this season; that’s why I was excited to get him in the sign and trade, and why I was and am so bummed that he never got a decent chance here-even if he was awful and out of control in his very limited run here.)

By: StevenU

StevenU — Sat, 26 Feb 2011 00:07:23 +0000

@Owen: C’mon re: Starks (not that we could be further off point) Starks, like Mason and Oakley was the type of player whose contribution can not be measured in stats. Heart. Passion. Energy. Defense. Fearlessness (maybe even to a fault). He was an integral part of one of the toughest best defensive teams ever. And I am not saying he is a hall of famer or anything crazy-more like one of the greatest role players of all time.
And re: Pippen-and all those guys, Jordan was so incredible that it becomes impossible to really measure their value. The only way I can think of is to look at what they did when they played without him, which basically amounts to nothing.
Pippen’s biggest moment was sulking on the bench and taking himself out of a critical playoff game cuz he was so upset and not getting the last shot (which Kukoc-who was a much better shooter-nailed). I can not think of any all time great in any sport who did that. And the migraines. And the fact that he was completely bullied and intimidated by Rodman and the Pistons for years and needed Jordan to stand up for him.
So yes, I know he has decent career numbers, he was agood passer, and was a very good defender- and I knew I’d get flak for writing that he is so overrated-but I did watch all those games and I do not think Pippen was a big step up from any of those versatile point forward types.
All that being said I completely agree with your point about luck.

By: Caleb

Caleb — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 23:41:34 +0000

StevenU: The big criticism of AR (aside from the pouting and the shot selection) was that he just didn’t have the “motor” Dantoni’s style requires.

I dunno... if AR has one thing it's a motor - turbocharged. No steering wheel, maybe! I guess it's understandable - most New Yorkers never saw him play so they didn't get it. He's a skilled guy - even scored a lot for Golden State. He just has no clue what a bad shot is. I just think it's a safe bet he'll mature... most 21 year olds do..

By: Owen

Owen — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 23:19:26 +0000

“Owen I think that’s an excellent point. I’d call it the Scottie Pippen effect. I know he was good player, even though he was a total wuss and a whiner, but now people call him a top 50 player!!! ”

Well, I disagree about Pippen. He was a great player, statistically and otherwise (accomplishments, eye-test, etc) Those 90′s Bulls were the best teams of all time and it wasn’t because of Jordan alone. The 80′s Bulls, when Jordan was even more dominant, weren’t nearly as good.

And if you look carefully at John Starks numbers they really aren’t that impressive. There is always going to be a divide over whether to give credit to the scoring players or the possession specialists. For instance, who was more important to the Bad Boys? Isiah, Dumars, and the Microwave? Or Laimbeer, Rodman, Mahorn, Salley etc?

Why were the Knicks good in the Nineties? The gritty John Starks? The canny Greg Anthony? The deadeye Hubert Davis?

Or was it the best defensive frontcourt of all time? My money is on:
Ewing+Oakley+Mason.

If I had to explain why I love the Wages of Wins so much it’s pretty simple. Because I saw how effective a player like Anthony Mason was despite his incredibly unconventional game.

More generally, t’s crazy to me how big a role luck plays in player’s legacies and people’s perceptions of their ability. Who you play with, even over the long run, often matters much more than how good you actually were. Hello Rip Hamilton, you there?

At some point Bill Simmons will latch on to this idea, package it perfectly, and turn it into a million hit column.

By: StevenU

StevenU — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 23:09:04 +0000

Ben R a good friend went to South Carolina and said he was by far the fans favorite player there as well.

By: Ben R

Ben R — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 23:00:35 +0000

Frank O.: Aren’t you just a little curious to know why it is that every he goes his ass quickly gets nailed to the bench?

One important thing with Balkman is he has only been in two places and only played under two coaches. He started in NY under Isiah and was an important part of the rotation both years, even though he struggled his 2nd year. Then he got traded before ever playing for D'Antoni and ended up in Denver under Karl. That 1st year under Karl he got alot of playing time and had his best season. This earned him a five year contract with Denver. The next season still under Karl, he, for no appearant reason, was out of the rotation and never even sniffed it again that year or the next. So the only coach who refused to play him was Karl, I don't know why, but it is not a pattern of not getting playing time, Karl is the only coach to bench him. All the whispers about being bad at practice or smoking pot are complete conjecture. As for his production he passes not only the advanced stats test, but the defensive +/- test and the simple eye test. Everyone that's watched him play seems to like him. He was a fan favorite here, he was a fan favorite in Denver. His offensive game actually reminds me a bit of Fields, without the 3 point shot. He has a similar knack of floating along the baseline and getting open and is also good finishing on cuts to the basket. This is on top of being a very good rebounder and great defender.

By: Brian Cronin

Brian Cronin — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 22:44:32 +0000

Yeah, since I knocked the Carmelo stuff from Simmons’ piece, it is only fair that I do give him credit for the strong parts of his column with the Perkins stuff. That was well-written work.

By: StevenU

StevenU — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 22:42:47 +0000

Owen I think that’s an excellent point. I’d call it the Scottie Pippen effect. I know he was good player, even though he was a total wuss and a whiner, but now people call him a top 50 player!!! I think he is the most overrated player of all time and all those guys on the Bulls-with the exception of Rodman and Ron Harper-and maybe Horace Grant, are as well.
Obviously they were all good players and they were able to excel at their roles-but Wennington, Cartwright, Pippen, Paxson, Armstrong, Longley, etc ALL get overrated based on the success they enjoyed while riding Jordan’s coattails.
I would not put John Starks in that category at all, though. Evryone on that team fed off Ewing, true, like with any great player, but Starks was a baller with heart and soul and fire to spare.