Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Saturday, November 17, 2018

Golden State Warriors 128 – New York Knicks 100 – Game Recap

I guess this is what it feels like to be a happy loser. We lost by 28 to the Warriors (entering the final quarter with a three-point lead) and I couldn’t care less about the end result. While I was watching the third quarter, I found myself thinking “I hope we lose tonight; after all, we already exceeded our goal for this match, and we have to rack up losses”. And that was what happened: we lost, badly, and I was extremely happy for us.

The good vibes started when the starting lineup was announced. Frank at PG, Dot at SF and Mitch at C? I was tingling with curiosity and expectations. Let’s just say I wasn’t let down a tiny bit. We kept the game competitive until 5:32 remaining in the last quarter (and then we just rolled over and died, but who cares), while playing our rookies and second year players at least 16 minutes each.

The good:

– Noah Vonleh (7 pts, 5 rebs, 4 ast, -6 +/-) was a big reason why the ball didn’t stick too much in one place on offense. He was all over the court, acting often as a release valve for the ball handler – if only to give the ball back to him after a millisecond – and threw a couple slick passes that found Mitch free under the basket. His defense wasn’t bad and his energy level was instrumental in giving fits to the Warriors offense. I’m not sure it was a lot of sense to play him alongside another big man who can’t stretch the floor, but if that is what’s needed to open up playing time for Mitch, I’m all in.

– Mitchell Robinson (7 pts, 6 rebs, 2 stl, -12 +/-) didn’t have exactly a good game in itself, but let’s put it this way: dude is 20, this was his first start in the NBA (and fifth NBA game overall) and didn’t play organized basketball at all last season. It’s like being given the keys to a Ferrari shortly after getting back to the USA from a long stay in Tokyo, where the cars are right-hand drive only, and having only driven a Prius for the last few days. The main goal is not to crash the damn thing on a lamppost on your first 90 degree left turn. Mitch clearly didn’t crash it, as he looked a little lost in the first half, but gained a lot of confidence in the second. In the third quarter he was a pogo stick who disrupted countless Warriors plays just by jumping around and moving his freakish arms. He also dissipated my fear that he couldn’t handle more than 15 minutes in a game, be it because of foul trouble of poor conditioning: he played 29 minutes, was called for two fouls and didn’t look exhausted at the end. He can be a monster offensive rebounder in short spurts, and to be honest I didn’t expect him to have such an impact on the game. Now, if he learns how to set screens and to box out under the defensive glass, in two seasons he’s gonna be a real beast. Move away Capela, here comes the next rim running center of the future. I can’t wait to see him play the PnR with Frank – or any other competent PG to be honest – in 2020-21 with KP spotting up on the weakside, or being the man called to clean up the mess after someone threw him a Kobe assist.

– Frank Ntilikina (17 pts, 1 reb, 2 ast, -12 +/-) was much more aggressive than usual, and clearly benefits from playing at PG even if he isn’t your prototypical playmaker. Aside from a couple of boneheaded fouls and turnovers, and a lack of assists due to his preferred style of horizontal passing, this was the Frank we hoped he could be. In control, assertive, confident. In the first five games of the season, played primarily at SF, he never scored in double digits. Tonight he got there in the first half. We’re still waiting for him to have a complete game, but tonight was a great night for us Frank fans. He struggled a bit on defense, but well, who doesn’t on Curry-Thompson-KD? I just don’t understand why Fiz took him out in the third with 6 minutes to go while he was cooking, effectively stopping his momentum, only to put him back into the game with the score already compromised. I think a 20 points game would have done wonders for his development in terms of mindset, and this one was as good as any to get there. Well, nevermind, let’s hope this Frank shows up to the next game. First time this season his usage was 20+ (22.7).

– Damyean Dotson (12 pts, 7 rebs, 1 stl, -9 +/-) scored in double digits for the fourth time in a row and had his standard great game on the boards. I’m worried a bit about his futile passing game, but as a 3-and-D rotation cog you really could do much worse than this. He also was passable on defense, and his basketball demeanor looks like he’s got the right to stick in the league for a few years. Here’s hoping he won’t be the one to lose playing time when Knox gets back.

The bad:

– Uh, no one? I know, it’s weird to say that when you lose by 28, but this is what a competently executed rebuild looks like.

– Nah, I was joking. Lance Thomas (2 pts, 1 reb, 1 ast, -12 +/-) has totally regressed to the Lance of yore, a sorry excuse for an apparently hustling basketball player who does nothing on the court. I don’t know where preseason Lance went, but we have no use for this Lance, and he shouldn’t set foot on the court unless every other wing player is hurt. Giving him 20 minutes tonight, while giving only 25 to Frank, is the only glaring mistake by Fizdale. I propose to give to Lance the 2018-19 Jason Collins award for “most unproductive rotation player in the NBA”.

Fun-sized bits:

– Trey Burke (15 pts, 2 rebs, 2 ast, -16 +/-), Enes Kanter (8 pts, 13 rebs, 2 ast, -17 +/-) and Tim Hardaway Jr. (24 pts, 2 rebs, 3 ast, -15 +/-) were all pretty good at scoring when nothing else was working, but nobody had a particularly efficient game. I can’t complain about that, anyway, since they were coming off the bench to stir things up when the action was stalling… Oh wait, THJ is still in the starting lineup and played a team-high 36 minutes. Now, I know that this critique on Timmy is starting to feel a bit stale, but my Eurobasket roots are irked everytime he takes the ball with the clear intent of shooting it without conscience. I like his quick release on spot up threes, even if some of those are pretty much ill-advised (he tried one in the first quarter from at least 32 feet with no reason for it), but I don’t like one iota the dribble-dribble-dribble-shoot facet of his game.

– Let’s talk about Mitch. I didn’t feel this excited for a Knicks prospect since KP. I’m not saying they’re equals – in fact, here’s my bet that Mitch will end up being more productive than KP at the end of their respective careers – I’m saying that he is, between first and second year Knicks players, without a doubt the one with the most potential to become a nightmare for other teams when in full blossom. Kid is just a fenomenal specimen, and runs like a fast guard.

– Allonzo Trier’s shine is wearing off a bit, but he never seems a fish out of water. That’s always something for an undrafted rookie.

– Durant and Curry are insane. In other news, the sun is hot.

– No but really. Durant won the game by himself and there was nothing anybody could do to stop him. I don’t know if I want him to come here next year (opportunity costs, yadda yadda yadda) but he’s the most effortless scorer I have ever seen, and I saw prime Jordan. He’s a cold-blooded assassin, and his role in today’s NBA might be severely underrated.

– In the third quarter, the Warriors seemed to turn over the ball every other possession. I fully expected their box score to report 20+ turnovers by the end of the night, but it said only 14. I’m still dumbfounded by that.

Nothing else to report, but let’s get carried away by irrational hope after this peculiar youngsters-led outing! I can’t wait to watch the next game, it’s gonna be wild if these pups keep on playing like this.

See ya on Monday!

109 comments on “Golden State Warriors 128 – New York Knicks 100 – Game Recap

  1. Brian Cronin

    MitchRob really was outstanding (within context). I, too, thought he would be winded, but he wasn’t at ALL. That is a HUGE sign for him. I’m so pumped.

  2. Max

    Good job Farfa (as usual)!

    Quotes:
    “The Warriors outscored the Knicks by 31 in the 4th quarter, the 3rd-largest scoring margin the 4th quarter of any game in the shot clock era, per ESPN Stats and Information.”
    David Fizdale said he thought the Knicks “were just happy to be in the game” against the Warriors in the fourth quarter: “I just saw that look of, alright, we’ve done enough tonight. We played hard enough. I just got to get these guys to understand how to play 48 minutes. Right now we’re playing college ball. Forty.”

    To answer one of your questions, I care and that’s why I was so angry yesterday.
    I never thought we could win this game, but there are different ways of losing, you’re not obliged to reach new highs of futility every night, more so on your own turf.
    This is the third game in a row in which at some point we were obliterated, got punched in the mouth, roll up and die.
    I want my players to let everything on the court (as they did in the first 2 losses of the year) especially young ones that haven’t won a lick in their careers.

    And I don’t understand Fiz’s decisions: why play the “demoted” players for so long? If they’re not good enough to start how are they goin’ to be good in a close game? Why keep Frank (a 17 points in 20 minutes Frank at the time) on the bench for 12 straight minutes?

    Aside from that, the first 36 minutes were fun, I’m very encouraged with Frank’s game (let’s hope this become the norm and not the exception), Vonleh is a good pickup, Dotson could play (and rebound too). The youngsters will grow, next games’ll be better… :-)

    Goin’ around the league, I nearly had an orgasm watching the Nets lose like that, Montrezl Harrell’s revenge game, Carmelo’s always a great loser, Gallo’s healty and playing well, Sacramento’s 3-3 (Good for the tank!), the Raptors are for real and Luka’s too, the Wolves are shit, Kemba’s possessed (and what happened to Willy? Is he hurt? 5 minutes in a 30 points blowout?). There’s…

  3. Farfa Post author

    I guess I didn’t care that much because Frank’s minutes were telling me that Fizdale was throwing the game (I’m not implying he did; it’s just that it really didn’t make sense to have Frank play so little in the second half). So at that point my mind was just numb.

  4. Max

    I would add something about M-Rob but I used all my characters :-)

    Robinson is a steal and the FO did a great job signing him for 4 years (4!!) at a reasonable price and with team options.
    Looks like he’s coachable and if it’s true then he’ll be a stud.

  5. Donnie Walsh

    Would you trade the Knicks roster for the Kings roster right now?

    (Would you trade the Knicks owner for the Kong’s owner right now?)

  6. Farfa Post author

    Would you trade the Knicks roster for the Kings roster right now?

    I’m sorry, I can’t part with Robinson and Ntilikina (also, I don’t see any potential superstar on the Kings’ roster, but I have to admit that there’s plenty of good trade material there)

  7. english_knick

    The Kings winning games could be great for us. There’s so much sense in them trading for THj (that is, there’s no actual sense in it, but it would be so Kings).

    Cap relief would be fine but I’d love us to also steal a young piece – Skal?

    I know, I’m dreaming. But we’ve been so damn competent so far this season. LOVED the starting five last night.

  8. Max

    @5
    No I would not.
    KP and Kevin Knox, plus I have a crush for Frank, then M-Rob and Dotson and Iso-Zo…
    I’ll take my chances.

  9. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    I disagree with consensus view of the game.

    IMO, the Knicks were terrible the entire game. One major difference in the 4th quarter was that the Warriors (or should I say Durant) were actually trying on both sides. It was kind of like when a boxer knows he can take out his opponent any time he wants, but he’s decided to carry him for a few founds because he wants the work or because wants to give the crowd a better show. It was a mockery.

    Everyone knows I’m a huge Frank fan. I think he’s one of the few players on this team that can actually be good some day. So I’m happy he hit a few shots. But right now they are leaving him wide open because they have no respect for his shooting at all. If he can deliver like this from the 3 point line regularly (37.5%), they are going to start guarding him. Then his 3p% will probably fall back. The good news is that he’s almost certainly better than last year and there’s plenty more to come over the next few years. The bad news is that he still has a long way to go to actually be good on offense. Baby steps.

  10. alsep73

    So was Fiz tanking with those second half rotations? Or should we be worried that he’s not quite the tactical mind he seems? We were losing that game no matter who he played, but keeping Frank on the bench, and playing Lance that much, is eyebrow-raising at minimum.

  11. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    It’s way too early to express strong opinions, but right now I think KP, Frank, and Dotson are the 3 definite keepers on the team.

    I’ve been intrigued by Vonleh since pre season and still like what I see.

    It’s still too early to evaluate Robinson (who is very raw and limited at this stage), Knox, and Trier (who has cooled down a bit), but it’s hard to imagine Robinson not being good eventually even if he’s very limited on offense. Knox will be a scorer for sure, but will he be an efficient one or a volume scorer and can he play defense?

    Burke would be fine as the backup, but if we move on I don’t think it would be a terrible loss. Other than that, I think we can move on from everyone else.

    PS: Willy is playing in Charlotte and looks good to me, but he’s not getting a lot of run. Maybe we can get him back for a single 2nd rounder. I’d have no problem bringing him back as a backup C after we move on from Kanter.

  12. Owen

    Mitch Rob is huge. He sticks out in a room and is undeniably very athletic.

    And Durant rose up right over him and swished a three. Sort of crazy how easy basketball is for that guy.

  13. Bruno Almeida

    If the Kings has drafted Doncic I would switch rosters, now I wouldn’t. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve been positively impressed by Bagley, he looks like he’ll stick and be a productive player, it’s just that Doncic is in another level for me. For a 19 year old euro rookie the way he just casually played super well against Kawhi and the Raptors, who are looking like a 65 win team by the way, is so impressive.

    I also feel vindicated by Bjelica playing so well as I’ve been talking this guy up for so long.

  14. ClashFan

    It is still very early and Fiz is very likely in “evaluation” mode. I wondered last night if Fiz was tanking vs. GS when he really didn’t need to. Even early in the 4th with the Knicks up, there’s just the feeling of inevitability that they would go on a run. Either KD or Curry or even Klay.

    The Knicks have no one like that, though Timmy is a wannabe.

    I read somewhere that Frank may have tweaked his back, thus sitting for a long stretch from the mid 3rd to mid 4th. Once he came in, the KD steam engine was already on a roll and not being stopped.

    Also, maybe there is (and will be for some time) some giving of significant minutes to guys the Knicks hope to trade at some point later in the year. Kanter, Trey, Hez, and LT might all be in that category (all of those guys have serious limitations as players, but the first three could be useful bench scorers for some teams). I’m not saying that the Knicks can necessarily get anything for any of them, but they might be thinking along those lines. Lee’s gonna have to play at some point, too.

  15. Z-man

    Frank shot pretty well for the first time in 6 games. Did he do anything else well that PGs do? 1 reb, 2 ast, 3 tov.

    Do we no longer consider stats before saying things like :
    “…was much more aggressive than usual, and clearly benefits from playing at PG even if he isn’t your prototypical playmaker. Aside from a couple of boneheaded fouls and turnovers, and a lack of assists due to his preferred style of horizontal passing, this was the Frank we hoped he could be. In control, assertive, confident.”

    and:

    “…Frank’s minutes were telling me that Fizdale was throwing the game…”

    He has been absolute dogshit as an offensive PG thus far this season, including this game. That is irrefutable by any objective statistical evidence. It’s amazing how those who have an irrational love for the guy will see shit that isn’t there.

    To put it in perspective, Noah Vonleh had more assists and fewer turnovers last night. Chuck Hardaway Jr. had more assists and the same number of turnovers. Frank’s AST% for the season is lower than TH2, Vonleh, and Kanter. His FTr is .085!!! He hasn’t had a single offensive rebound all year (at 6’6″!) and has the lowest TRB% of anyone on the team with more than 100 minutes.

    But his TS% is over .500, so there’s that!

    Just keepin’ it real.

  16. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

    So first I go out to dinner just before the Warriors hand a fat Tank W to our beloved Knicks, and then I turn off the game after the 17th because Eovaldi looked like he was ready to throw heat until 5 AM. Great decisions on my part.

    Before anyone gets too crazy about the Kings roster, consider this guy:

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bjeline01.html

    He is playing out of his mind right now. There is no possible way that a 30-year-old forward “made adjustments” and went from a career 0.2 BPM player to a 7.3 BPM player. Shumpert too is playing well above his career average (-0.4 BPM) with a 3.3 mark, much of it coming from his sky high TS% (.683 against .500 career). Even WCS is beating his previous expectations.

    I know there was no assertion of the Kings’ roster superiority, but their 3-3 record is a smokescreen. Unless Fox and Hield turn into actual solid NBA players, the team will end up in the mid-20s again. They’ve beaten WAS and MEM, neither of which are any good, and managed to crush the Thunder, who are playing well below their talent level but still looking like one of the worst long-term value rosters in the league.

  17. Brian Cronin

    I’ve been in on Bagley since he was, like, a junior in high school. So I’m pleased to see him play so well. I really like Bagley. I think he’s “victim” (quotes because, come on, the dude’s a multi-millionaire who got picked #2 overall) of our tendency, with the top prospects, of dwelling on the things they can’t do rather than the things that they can.

    But yes, I would of course take Doncic over him. Doncic is a generational talent.

  18. Ntilakilla

    He has been absolute dogshit as an offensive PG thus far this season, including this game.

    6 for 11 shooting, 3 of 5 from three is dogshit? This sounds so moronic.

  19. d-mar

    Fun fact: last night’s game took longer than the entire 1939 World Series (4 game sweep by the Yankees)

  20. ptmilo

    yeah I also didn’t think Frank played all that well last night, and i think Fiz waited to put him in because Burke was playing well on 50% of the court. Frank had almost no effect on steph, and made some surprising defensive mistakes that would have had us whining had they been mudiay. trey was even worse on D and it’s the warriors, so it’s not meant as a big criticism, but as good a defender as frank often is, it really wasn’t apparent last night.

    on offense he hit some 3s which was fun but of course that’s a noisy indicator for any given game. otherwise he really just did 3 things. he made two nice moves on Klay, the drive-right turn-left DDR fade and the pump-fake soft touch floater. And the back cut when Mitch sealed off for him. these were nice moves for sure but the problem in the long run is that they have a low ceiling. even the players who are really good at that stuff are only so efficient. he still didn’t go strong enough to the rim and served one up so fat that Damian Jones could have blocked it with his face. he also keeps getting taller but has played 175 minutes this year without an offensive rebound. Dotson had as many boards last night as Frank has in the last 5 games. and that TO to Vonleh when he didn’t see Jones standing in the paint was ugly because he was barely in motion.

    I haven’t given up on Frank. I think he is a unique NBA player with an odd combination of skills and deficiencies but an NBA player nonetheless. I don’t think his problem is nearly as “mental” as many others do. I think he lacks explosion and body control in the air and he viscerally knows this limits his chances of finishing efficiently inside. i think if he woke up with starks’ mentality you’d see some ugly MCW shit going toward that rim. kind of like what you see from Knox whenever there’s a decent paint defender.

  21. Ntilakilla

    Frank had almost no effect on steph, and made some surprising defensive mistakes that would have had us whining had they been mudiay.

    The ironic part here is even Steph said he was impressed with the way “Niggalina” played last night.

  22. Z-man

    6 for 11 shooting, 3 of 5 from three is dogshit? This sounds so moronic.

    …says Frank’s man-servant extraordinaire. Did you happen to notice the words “this season?” Or “offensive PG?”

    I look forward to your “intelligent” explanation of how the stats I referenced are “moronic” in supporting the case that Frank never was, isn’t, and almost certainly never will be a competent offensive PG in the NBA. He’s a 3-and-D combo wing who can guard PGs, and that’s it. There is absolutely no statistical evidence that says otherwise, either from here or from Strasbourg. But keep the faith, dude, he’ll turn the corner any day now.

  23. Ntilakilla

    Did you happen to notice the words “this season?” Or “offensive PG?”

    Don’t walk back your point now. You wrote he was offensively “dogshit” in “this game”. Since at the minimum he had an efficient shooting night (6/11 out of 3/5 three point shooting) your analysis just categorically wrong. Overreaching hot takes like these make you look unreasonably stupid on the subject. And overreacting to anyone who points this out by doubling down and closing the book on a 20 year old player makes you look really irrational and ungenerous about a player who was arguably the best Knick on the floor last night.

  24. ptmilo

    The ironic part here is even Steph said he was impressed with the way “Niggalina” played last night.

    steph curry praising a young opponent needs to be graded on the same curve as the miraculously cured knickerblogger legacy timestamp. like that time jason kidd said mudiay would be better than he was. remember when steph played d’lo as a rookie and said he’d eventually solve quantum gravity? one day these players will get really old like knickerblogger and find their inner trutholes, but today words are just a melody.

  25. Z-man

    No, it makes you irrationally stupid that you think that a guy who has 2 assists and 3 TO’s had a good night as an offensive PG. But that’s fine. When a total imbecile like yourself thinks that I’m stupid, I take it as a compliment. Sort of like I feel about Trump supporters. You are to Frank what they are to Trump. Nothing he does wrong registers, regardless of whether or not it hurts the team.

  26. Farfa Post author

    Yeah, I don’t hide the fact that I’m rooting for the kids to succeed. I think this year Ntilikina, Knox, Dotson, Mitch and Trier need to be evaluated with a lot of caveats.

    Did Frank play a good NBA game? Not really. Did he play a good Frank game? I think so. If anything, I don’t like now he played so little PnR. But everything else was there, if we want baby steps.

    I might be completely wrong, but performances like this one look like a good sign to me.

  27. Farfa Post author

    One more thing: I’m not sure that we should evaluate Frank in terms of “PG-ness”. What I was trying to say is that if you give him a good share of the rock by making him a point guard his offense tends to look better. That’s all :-)

  28. Z-man

    And part of your stupidity is that you also ignore the hundreds of times I have said that he can develop into a very valuable 3-and-D 2-way player, almost totally depending on how well he shoots the 3, and that he has the makings of an elite NBA defender. You fail to grasp that my criticism of him is solely regarding his competency as a PG, traditional, triangle, or any other variety. He will never, ever be a primary ball-handler on a winning NBA team. At some point, you will be the only guy left on earth who thinks otherwise.

  29. Ntilakilla

    like that time jason kidd said mudiay would be better than he was. remember when steph played d’lo as a rookie and said he’d eventually solve quantum gravity?

    LOL. I don’t know why it is so hard for someone to accept the compliment of a good game from an opponent as genuine without having to invoke the red herring of hyperbole past. Mudiay did have a very promising game the time Kidd effusively hyped him up. So now we can’t believe Steph liked what he saw for one game because Jason Kidd talked out of his ass about someone else? Why is it so hard to admit that a young player performed admirably against a very tough assignment? It makes no sense unless you simply don’t want to give someone credit for taking just one step forward.

  30. Ntilakilla

    No, it makes you irrationally stupid that you think that a guy who has 2 assists and 3 TO’s had a good night as an offensive PG.

    Talk about projection. No one is extrapolating what Frank will become based on this game. In fact, I’ve always maintained that the point of drafting him was that his floor was higher than most thought – that he could be a competent 3 and D wing because of his size and solid shot mechanics if he didn’t stick as a PG.

    But if you’re going to tell me that a 2o year old who shot the ball very well had a “dogshit” offensive game you’re not being partial or even fair, you’re grinding an ax and its makes you look very discredited on the subject.

  31. Z-man

    Farfa, I appreciate the thoughtful explanation, as I do the time and effort you put into the recaps, so hopefully what I said did not come across as hostile. Frank had an efficient shooting game, most notably the 3-7 from 3. It actually supports my contention that he is better off without the rock in his hand, except when guys drop off of him and let him shoot.

    Here’s a reel of his makes and assists from last night. You tell me whether he had a promising game as an offensive PG:

    Shot 1: takes a return handoff from Vonleh, defenders go way under screen and leave him wide open for an elbow 3
    Shot 2: left wide open off the ball for weak-side corner 3 on a kick-out by THjr.
    Shot 3: drives for a fadeaway spin move from 12 feet, a shaun livingston special but very few players can make that work consistently. Notice that great defender Klay Thompson didn’t contest at all.
    Shot 4: Frank dribbles around a Mitch screen, Klay goes under even though he has 6 feet of room to go over the screen, Frank drains the 3.
    Shot 5: Frank drives on Klay and gets him to bite on a fake, his shot caroms off the rim six feet up in the air and drops in.
    Assist 1: Backing down Curry on the wing, passes backwards to Dot at the top for a 3
    Shot 6: Vonleh finds Frank cutting straight down the lane, he almost does a Bargs making a finger roll over Mitch’s back
    Assist 2: passes backwards to a curling Dotson who drains a long 2

  32. Ntilakilla

    You fail to grasp that my criticism of him is solely regarding his competency as a PG, traditional, triangle, or any other variety.

    LOL What? No one is talking about his future as a PG in this league. That’s your red herring to obscure the moronic unreasonableness of saying a guy who shot 6/11 (3 for 5) in 26 minutes of play had a dogshit offensive game. It’s like you want to move the goalposts because you know you can’t defend the stupidity of that statement. Frank played well on both ends of the court last night. I don’t know why that is hard for people to admit unless they’re insecure about any improvement in his game because it makes their previous hot takes look bad.

  33. Farfa Post author

    No offense Z-Man!

    I elaborate a little further: he looks like he needs the rock to build confidence. I think this is a byproduct of the players who share the court with him. Timmy, Dotson, Thomas, Knox, every big man (aside from Vonleh who actually seems to like sharing the ball) are pretty much black holes. That means he’s almost never in rhythm if they have the ball.

    I think too that Frank’s ceiling is as an elite 3-and-D player (if he can shoot 38/39% from there) and a point guard in a pinch. But we need to develop his confidence, so I’m ok with letting him operate as our PG.

    Moreover, I feel like he’s our best PnR orchestrator by instinct. He’s just too slow on reaction times and his dribble is still subpar.

    Thing is, we have close to nothing to gain from Burke playing well and Ntilikina’s overall development unraveling because the kid is terrified of making mistakes the rare times someone gives him the ball in the right spots.

  34. Z-man

    Once again, Ntilakilla, you are exposing yourself as a functional illiterate. Here are my exact words:

    “He has been absolute dogshit as an offensive PG thus far this season, including this game.”

    I’m not sure how more clearly I could have expressed that my issue with him is as a PG. You’re just too thick to get it. But this is your MO, just like Trump and his minions. If you call me enough names and keep lying about what I said, you can convince yourself that you’re telling the truth.

  35. Ntilakilla

    Here’s a reel of his makes and assists from last night. You tell me whether he had a promising game as an offensive PG:

    Here, students, is a perfect example of “bait and switch” fallacy, a cheap sophist’s trick which many academics and lawyers can spot like flies on mold. The trick is to hide an incorrect statement within a larger truth and then appeal to defending the true aspect of the statement instead of the falsehood when it is the falsehood that is being critiqued by an interlocutor.

    Remember Z-Man’s original inflammatory and stupid statement I took umbrage with? (“He has been absolute dogshit as an offensive PG thus far this season, including this game.“) I didn’t take issue with the fact that Frank had a “dogshit” offensive PG season so far, I took issue with the statement that Frank’s game last night was “dogshit” (“6 for 11 shooting, 3 of 5 from three is dogshit? This sounds so moronic.”)

    So what does Z-Man do? He pivots to a discussion of Frank’s career and projected future (“You tell me whether he had a promising game as an offensive PG”) because he understands that he cannot defend the original statement that a 6/11 night on 3/5 three point shooting in 26 minutes is “dogshit.” He’d rather jump through hoops to make an objection to this unreasonable statement seem as if it is a referendum on Frank’s status as the next Clyde Frasier when no one even raised the issue before he did.

  36. nicos

    The only point guard skill Frank has at the moment is the ability to throw a nice pocket pass in the pnr- that’s it. He doesn’t push in transition much, he’s tentative setting the offense, very little dribble penetration, etc… On offense he’s basically Lance Thomas (can hit wide open threes) with some mediocre playmaking sprinkled in. Seriously- Frank’s at .513 TS% with a usage of 14 this season. For his career Lance is at .512 TS% with, you guessed it, a usage of 14. But he’s 20. He’s improved his shooting over last year and I’m sure he’s going to get better in other ways as well. That said, I don’t think he’s ever going to be a genuine point guard- you can probably count the number of good passes he’s made while moving at full speed thus far in his career on one hand. It’s like he plays offense with a heavy French accent- he’s intelligible but barely. He’s obviously going to lose some of that accent but I doubt you’ll ever confuse him for a native speaker. Doesn’t mean he’s not going to be a valuable piece (though I’d trade him for De’Aaron Fox in a heartbeat) just that he’s probably not destined for the point.

  37. Z-man

    Farfa, I understand that POV, so sure, if you want him to build confidence, let him handle the rock a bit. That’s different than saying that he should be our primary ball handler and initiator. As to the PnR, my feeling is that to be truly effective as a PnR PG, you have to be a threat to score whether players switch, go over or go under the screen. I’m not sure that anything Frank does in the PnR is any better than what TH2 or Trier does.

  38. Z-man

    Here, students, is a perfect example of “bait and switch” fallacy, a cheap sophist’s trick which many academics and lawyers can spot like flies on mold. The trick is to hide an incorrect statement within a larger truth and then appeal to defending the true aspect of the statement instead of the falsehood when it is the falsehood that is being critiqued by an interlocutor.

    Translation: I’ve been proven wrong and rather than be embarrassed and humbled, I’ll lash out. Sound familiar?

  39. Ingmarrrr

    Frank did things last night that a year ago seemed like he’d never be able to. That’s a major improvement.

    I think Z-Man should concentrate on “borderline allstar” Burke — his prediction from a few weeks ago — and give his Ntilikina obsession a rest for one day.

  40. abk

    “Durant won the game by himself and there was nothing anybody could do to stop him. I don’t know if I want him to come here next year (opportunity costs, yadda yadda yadda)”

    I don’t understand this POV. Why wouldn’t you want Durant?

    KD and KP plus some young player development probably puts us in 50 win territory right? We immediately have a competitive team without sacrificing any draft picks or young assets, and in all likelihood we’ll be adding a top young player in the 2019 draft too.

    He’s one of the better players of all time and would immediately electrify NYC basketball. He’s only 30, so probably has 2-3 good years left at least. Is the idea we just want to avoid a bad 2 year deal on the books in 2022? That’s something, but the first three years probably provide enormous surplus value. He’d be making about Kanter and THJ’s combined salary; it’s not likely to be crippling. What’s crippling is trading away a bunch of future assets for a dud.

    I suppose he’s not the perfect fit for our win curve. However, I disagree with the mentality that a championship is the only thing that matters. Even if we have a 3% shot at a title, having a 50 win team with a mega-star vs a 30 win team has a lot of value (both entertainment wise as a fan and financially from an owner’s POV). If you can do it instantly without trading away a single asset I sign KD without question.

  41. Ntilakilla

    I’m not sure how more clearly I could have expressed that my issue with him is as a PG.

    LOL. No one took issue with this concern since everyone shares it here. The issue is whether you can give Frank a fair shake. And its becoming increasingly clear that not only will this be an issue for you but that you will double down to defend it when called out on it.

    But this is your MO, just like Trump and his minions.

    Now an ad hominem. You make a stupid, inflammatory comment and get mad when called out it. That’s your problem, not mine.

  42. Z-man

    Frank did things last night that a year ago seemed like he’d never be able to. That’s a major improvement.

    I think Z-Man should concentrate on “borderline allstar” Burke — his prediction from a few weeks ago — and give his Ntilikina obsession a rest for one day.

    Really??? What did he do that he couldn’t do a year ago???? Please tell!!!

    Burke has sucked. I would be an idiot to try to defend his play, except for the 3rd Q vs. the Bucks. I definitely thought he would pick up where he left off, and so far I’ve been totally wrong. That good enough for you? Or are you still rankled because no one jumped on your bandwagon last week?

  43. ClashFan

    @36
    Farfa, I completely agree. I’m skeptical that Frank will end up being a quality starting PG, but I’ve not yet given up on him. He needs to handle the ball a lot or he’ll just stand around most of the time while THJ, Knox et al. throw up shots all over the place.

    Unlike someone on the game thread last night, I don’t think the Knicks should have given up on him and traded him last year. Play the kid at PG. Let’s see what happens. BTW, he made some mistakes on D last night, but I still think he’s the team’s best defender, even if only by default b/c so many on the team stink. He had some nice moments on D last night, too.

  44. Ntilakilla

    Translation: I’ve been proven wrong and rather than be embarrassed and humbled, I’ll lash out. Sound familiar?

    LOL. Another red herring fallacy mixed with an ad hominem. You still won’t defend the statement I took issue with. And we both know why this is so – because you know you can’t do it on its merits. Instead of being intellectually honest you have to resort to cheaper rhetorical tricks like claiming you “proved me wrong” when you haven’t even proven yourself right.

  45. Z-man

    I don’t have to defend it, it stands on its own. Except if you’re either illiterate or Trumpian.

  46. Farfa Post author

    @44

    Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’d be delirious to have him here from a pure fan standpoint.

    Problem is, next year we’ll be still saddled with THJ contract and KP’s almost certain max extension will kick in. I guess everything depends on lottery night. If we get a top 3 pick, then sure, go get Durant.

    We’d have a lineup like this:

    Frank (?)
    THJ
    Durant
    Zion/Reddish/Little
    KP

    With this bench

    Trier
    Dotson
    Knox
    (?)
    Robinson

    Unproven, but probably good for 48 wins and theoretically on the rise thanks to the super rookie. But if we don’t have the super rookie I don’t feel like going all-in on a perennial 45-47 win team with no cap space.

  47. Ntilakilla

    I don’t have to defend it, it stands on its own.

    LOL. Really? The statement that Frank played like “dog shit” last night stands on its own? Does anyone with a modicum of objectivity or sense even believe this is a self-evident statement like water is wet? I think we know the answer it isn’t but you are too intellectually dishonest to admit it.

  48. Z-man

    To put it in perspective, Noah Vonleh had more assists and fewer turnovers last night. Chuck Hardaway Jr. had more assists and the same number of turnovers. Frank’s AST% for the season is lower than TH2, Vonleh, and Kanter. His FTr is .085!!!

    Does the fact that after I said that he was dogshit as an offensive PG, I cited the above evidence in support of that statement? You know, PG stuff?

    Probably not. You’d have to be objective and reasonably intelligent to make that connection.

    If KP goes 4-6 from 3 and scores 18 efficient points but has 2 rebounds and 0 blocks, did he have a good game as a PF/C? Did he do anything a 5’8″ player couldn’t do? Or would it be correct to say that he was dogshit as a PF/C?

  49. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

    Hypothetical situation broached a week or two ago, but with a twist: If Kemba continues his absurd play this year, and we’re guaranteed to spend all of our cap next year, how much would you be willing to pay him and why? (This is assuming no one better is interested in coming)

    I think I’d stop at 25m

  50. Z-man

    BTW, for those here long enough, I was a big fan of drafting Shump, and I was very supportive of his prospects as a part-time defensive PG, especially given the alternatives at the time. However, it wasn’t long before it became clear that he wasn’t up to the job. Same thing…lots of wasted east-west movement, turnovers, never getting to the line, very limited ball skills, primitive shot creation….no one needed to convince me that he had to play off the ball most of the time and that he was at best a 3-and-D wing, and that his future as an offensive player would depend on his 3-pt shooting. The current version of Frank and Shump seem to me like pretty similar players. Shump was theoretically more explosive but couldn’t finish worth a damn. Sure, Frank is younger, but if he was in the NCAA on a contending team right now, what position would he be playing? My guess is he’s be off the ball and no one would be thinking of drafting him as a PG..

  51. Z-man

    Funny how Timmy’s OBPM is so high, even though he is missing tons of shots. His WS48 has dropped below .100.

  52. thenoblefacehumper

    I think the Frank as a PG question, at least for right now, is more simple than a lot of people seem to think.

    Until we get someone clearly better, he should be given every opportunity to play PG. The only thing we have to lose are games, which is a good thing.

    He should NOT deter us from acquiring a better PG whether it’s in the draft or free agency because, as has been pointed out, he has never really been a PG.

    I’m very much on the skeptical side that he’ll ever be a point guard in the way we typically conceive of one. I could see him being penciled in as a point guard on a good team that has a different primary playmaker (Durant?), but at the end of the day a true point guard just about always needs a driving threat this is at least credible. Frank’s handle is probably the 4-5th best on the team right now and his finishing skills leave a lot to be desired.

    I like the guy and think he can be a productive player, but as of now we absolutely have a hole to fill at point guard.

  53. Z-man

    Hard to not like a kid from my stomping grounds in the Bronx, but Kemba is probably not the way to go. He’s gonna get a max deal from someone and small PGs tend not to age well. If we signed him for $25 mill, I guess I’d be ok with it.

  54. abk

    @Farfa

    But we wouldn’t be going “all-in” at all. Going “all-in” is trading four first round picks for someone, not getting a mega-star on an undervalued deal because the individual salary maximums won’t let teams sign the best players to their fair market value.

    We’d still have all of our picks and young players. THJ would probably be fairly movable, at the very least by 2020 or if we gave away a lesser asset with him. I also don’t necessarily see a steep drop-off after the #3 pick. There’s still a lot of uncertainty because the college season has yet to play out, but the #5 pick may be nearly as valuable.

    I think seeking the perfect rebuild is the enemy of good decision making here. We don’t HAVE to be terrible the next five years to have a good team, and even doing so would be no guarantee the team would be good in 2025 (especially with lottery reform). Durant would be underpaid at the beginning of the contract. This is worlds away from signing Eddy Curry. Durant’s almost 4 years younger than Lebron; you think Lebron wouldn’t be tradeable right now with a 2 year, $85 million deal? He’d probably be getting at least the offers like what Minny is getting for Butler. After a couple years with Durant, if you don’t like the results you can still probably trade him barring injury or huge skill declines.

  55. bobneptune

    The current version of Frank and Shump seem to me like pretty similar players.

    With all due respect Z distributing the ball is the #1 job of a lead guard and Frank is levels above Shump as an instinctive and natural and just better passer. Frank’s on the ball D is far better than Shump’s gambooling (sic) for steals ever was.

  56. Ntilakilla

    Does the fact that after I said that he was dogshit as an offensive PG, I cited the above evidence in support of that statement? You know, PG stuff?

    Wait a minute. So now the statement doesn’t stand on its own and needed to be supported. I thought you said it stood on its own. Which is it?

    BTW, you think citing evidence which is mostly comprised of how said player made most of his open shots proves that that player played like dog-shit? LOL. Okay.

    If KP goes 4-6 from 3 and scores 18 efficient points but has 2 rebounds and 0 blocks, did he have a good game as a PF/C? Did he do anything a 5’8? player couldn’t do? Or would it be correct to say that he was dogshit as a PF/C?

    It would be incorrect. If 20 year old KP was 6 for 11, 3 for 5 from 3, had 2 rebounds, 1 steal and 2 assists in 26 minutes of play defending a two time MVP I wouldn’t call it a dogshit game at all.

  57. Z-man

    @59 exactly, although I’d like to see him off the ball more…he needs to prepare for that role. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t ever initiate the offense, only that it should not be his primary responsibility. Guys like Mitch and Knox need to develop as well, and they need a PG doing PG things to do their thing.

  58. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    Z-Man

    Stats can be misleading without context.

    Frank hasn’t been playing as much PG this year. That’s why his assists (and TOs) have been down. Last night he didn’t get as many assists because the Warriors were dropping off him, going under screens etc.. daring him to shoot some of the time. So he shot way more 3s than he normally does (7 in 25 minutes) instead of dishing.

    You take what the defense gives you.

    No one is questioning that he still has a long way to go to be a plus offensive player, but he’s also just 20 years old and he’s already made progress. He’s hitting 37.5% of his 3s so far after looking a little better in pre season. If he can sustain that or better when they give him space, they won’t be able to give him that space anymore.

    He’s not going to just show up one day with a full repertoire. He’s going to slowly add to add his game season to season.

    Right now we are at the basics with him.

    If they give him enough space, he has to knock down the open 3 often enough to punish them. If we get past that step, then he has to start getting past players and creating better. He’ll have to learn to penetrate, collapse the defense, create switches and mismatches etc.. and finish or dish. baby steps

  59. Ntilakilla

    No one should be sold on Frank as a point guard. He’s 20 and raw as fuck. That’s not even in question. Hell, the fact that people are even debating this in definite terms is the problem since it means we’re making determinations about someone who is younger than many NBA players even began playing in the league. The question is whether people can at least fairly assess his performance without having to resort to ridiculous hyperbole one way or the other. It’s clear there are those who can’t. They know who they are.

    For me, its clear Frank took a small step forward in the face of Fizdale’s challenge to start against arguably the best PG of the era. He wasn’t perfect at all. He couldn’t generate as many open looks for his teammates because the Warriors played under screens daring him to shoot. So he made his open shots. It certainly wasn’t “dogshit”…hell, he was arguably our best player for the three quarters that the Knicks were leading the Warriors.

  60. Ingmarrrr

    Really??? What did he do that he couldn’t do a year ago???? Please tell!!!

    See the game recap.

    Burke has sucked. I would be an idiot to try to defend his play, except for the 3rd Q vs. the Bucks. I definitely thought he would pick up where he left off, and so far I’ve been totally wrong.

    Cool.

    That good enough for you? Or are you still rankled because no one jumped on your bandwagon last week?

    But you just had to attack back, didn’t you.

  61. Ntilakilla

    LOL Z-Man is feisty. I like it. Who knew Frank’s most efficient game would irk him so?

    Actually, I did. But I was hoping he could be mature enough to swallow his pride and just admit the kid wasn’t trash for his first start at PG. I now know I gave him too much credit.

  62. Z-man

    bobneptune,
    Regardless of what the eye test says, statistically, 20yo Frank is very similar to 21yo Shump. If you look on B-R, Shump was listed as a PG his rookie year, had an AST% of 15.6, a TOV% of 16.0 and a USG% of 18.2. So far this year, Frank’s are: 14.4, 17.0 and 14.0. Last year, he was 20, 19, and 17.

    Shump didn’t improve much either as a 1 or a 2, mainly because he never became a consistent 3 pt shooter. (He’s having a great statistical year so far, mainly because he is shooting well from 3.) Hopefully Frank will keep shooting well from 3 as he has thus far this year and will have a much better career than Shump.

  63. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    I’ll tell you the major differences between Frank and Shumpert.

    1. A bunch of IQ points
    2. After games and practice Shumpert was out smoking weed with JR Smith capping his progress. Frank is in the gym and film room getting better.
    3. Shumpert had ACL surgery and then a series of other injuries that limited his progress further.

  64. Ntilakilla

    @71

    4. The fact that at Frank’s current NBA age Iman Shumpert was a guard at Georgia Tech. LOL

  65. Z-man

    If they give him enough space, he has to knock down the open 3 often enough to punish them. If we get past that step, then he has to start getting past players and creating better. He’ll have to learn to penetrate, collapse the defense, create switches and mismatches etc.. and finish or dish. baby steps

    I don’t think a “first step” is something you develop, nor do I think advanced ball-handling and finishing are just a matter of hard work, practice and reps. Yes, if he can keep knocking down 3’s and force his man to go over screens, then that opens up passing and driving lanes. But that goes for Knox, KP, and pretty much everyone else on the team, too.

  66. Z-man

    @72 if Frank played in the NCAA as a freshman instead of in France, I wonder where he would have been drafted…

  67. Bruno Almeida

    If Ntilikina can shoot 3 threes a game at a 40% clip and focus on defending their best wing player, he’s a valuable player.

    I am disappointed at his lack of aggression, his penchant to give up the ball without trying to make a play and his errant shooting. I expected him to start showing more signs this year, but it’s atill early. So as someone who thought he was a good pick, I still see him becoming an above average player in the future, but he isn’t one now.

  68. Ntilakilla

    If Frank played in the NCAA as a freshman instead of in France, I wonder where he would have been drafted…

    Depends on the year he declares or the conference. I actually think he’d have been better off in the NCAA because they would’ve given him more playing time in an easier league to make mistakes without the fear of being benched.

  69. Z-man

    But you just had to attack back, didn’t you.

    So the way it’s supposed to work is, you get to interject into a discussion I’m having with someone else and make a snarky comment, and I should not say anything equally snark back? Especially given that you actually lobbied to have people call me out last week (unsuccessfully, I might add.) Yeah, I just had to.

    Frank did things last night that a year ago seemed like he’d never be able to. That’s a major improvement.
    See the game recap.

    I did. Here’s what I found out from last year:

    He’s played 26 minutes before
    He’s taken 11 shots before
    He’s made 6 before
    He’s made 3 3’s before
    He’s had 0 ORebs before
    He’s had 1TRB before
    He’s had 2 assists before
    He’s had 3 TOs before
    He’s had 1 steal before
    He’s had 0 blocks before
    He’s had He’s had 17 points before
    He’s had a -12 +/- before
    He’s had game scores higher than 10.6 before (See B-R)
    He’s made every kind of shot that he made last night before

    So again, I ask, what did he do that it seemed that he’d never be able to do?

  70. Ntilakilla

    So again, I ask, what did he do that it seemed that he’d never be able to do?

    Did he go 6 of 11 with 3 for 5 from three before?

  71. Ntilakilla

    Actually, the Shumpert comparison is very telling in a way that reminded me of how raw Frank is.

    When Iman came into the NBA he had at least 1896 minutes of NCAA real game experience. I say at least because the minutes for his freshman season aren’t listed in the official record. It’s probably a lot more since he played 31 games that freshman season (I would venture around 850 minutes more, give or take).

    Frank had 890 minutes coming into the NBA only a few against mature, professional competition.

    This kid came into the league very behind the curve in terms of real game experience. People are just going to have to be patient – that is, if you want to truly give him a fair shake. If you want to dismiss him then you can already proceed to make stupid hyperbolic statements and outlandish comparisons.

  72. Z-man

    @75 that’s a fair assessment. And for the record, he’s potentially (but not yet) an elite NBA-level defender, so he already isn’t a “bad” pick. He’s 20 and the jury’s still out on how he will compare to those picked just after him.

  73. bobneptune

    Regardless of what the eye test says, statistically, 20yo Frank is very similar to 21yo Shump. If you look on B-R, Shump was listed as a PG his rookie year, had an AST% of 15.6, a TOV% of 16.0 and a USG% of 18.2. So far this year, Frank’s are: 14.4, 17.0 and 14.0. Last year, he was 20, 19, and 17.

    So you are so bereft of an argument here you are going to compare the sample size of Shumps 1705 minutes at 21 with Frank’s 175 at 20 ? Of course Frank’s comparison at 19 with exactly the same minutes looks worse for even your cherry picked stats. WOW…. just WOW…..

  74. Z-man

    @78 He also never made a 3 after a guy in seat 12 in row 10 in section 105 scratched his balls before.

    I guess it doesn’t count that he’s had similar games, like when he went 5-11 and 3-4 from 3 with 5 rebounds and 5 assists…he’s doing things he never did before!! We should say that every time he has a stat line that doesn’t perfectly match one from the past, that means that he’s making progress!

  75. Ntilakilla

    @78 He also never made a 3 after a guy in seat 12 in row 10 in section 105 scratched his balls before.

    LOL. So I guess the answer is, no, he never had a shooting line as good as 6-11 with 3 of 5 three pointers made. Wrong again, friendo.

  76. Z-man

    So you are so bereft of an argument here you are going to compare the sample size of Shumps 1705 minutes at 21 with Frank’s 175 at 20 ? Of course Frank’s comparison at 19 with exactly the same minutes looks worse for even your cherry picked stats. WOW…. just WOW…..

    Wait, I included his 19yo stats, and they were 20, 19 and 17…is that much different than 16, 16 and 18? Do you really think that an AST% of 20 vs. a TOV% of 19 is much different than an AST% of 16 and a TOV% of 16? If you do, then there’s no point in discussing it further with you.

  77. Z-man

    @79 Frank has now had 890 minutes of mostly sucky game time in Strasbourg (and weren’t you the one saying it was against “grown men” in a “pro league” and should count for more than beating up scrubs and kids in the NCAA?) and 1700 minutes of mostly sucky game time in real NBA games. Mitchell Robinson is as raw as a prospect can be, and I believe that we could get more for him in a trade right now for Mitch than we can for Frank. And that’s in a league that doesn’t like bigs who can’t shoot 3’s.

    It’s not just about Frank being raw, he is deficient at certain skills that are very hard to develop at his age. Maybe he bucks the conventional wisdom, but I wouldn’t bet on it. He’s got a long way to go before defenders even start taking him seriously.

  78. thenoblefacehumper

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2018/10/27/wizards-are-starting-their-annual-meltdown-early-this-season/?utm_term=.4647816c6310

    If our cap sheet was a little cleaner it wouldn’t be the craziest thing in the world to take Otto Porter Jr. off the Wizard’s hands. Everyone on that team seems to hate everyone else so I’m guessing they’d be open to moving him. Alas, with our cap sheet in the state that it’s in it’s a non-starter. Thanks, Phil and Steve!

  79. Z-man

    I’ll be happy to cease and desist, but it would also be great if people stopped treating Frank with kid gloves. For example, why complain that he should have played more in the 2nd half, when the unit on the floor had us leading the champs by 1 with 7:30 to play, and Trier hit a shot to have us down 2 with 6:43 to go? Frank was actually at the scorer’s table less than a minute after that but couldn’t get in until a TO was called at 5:32 with us down 8. Then Frank comes in and we go minus 20 in 5:32.Why should Fizdale be criticized for going with the unit that was playing well to that point? If anything, he should be criticized for keeping Kanter in over Vonleh after he took an ill-advised long 2 early in the clock, then stupidly flailed at and fouled Durant for an and-1, then committed a dumb offensive foul on the on the perimeter.

  80. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

    Strat finally made the point I was going to make. The Warriors went under screens and generally defended others than defend Ntilikina. In that situation he’s supposed to shoot and get points instead of assists. He did that, and was successful at it. Last season people were complaining he couldn’t score, so it’s nice to have a game where he did. It’s not surprising some posters were positive about the game.

    It doesnt show he can be the sort of point guard Z-man wants. But I would say he had very little chance of demonstrating that sort of potential in this particular game. He hasn’t been playing point guard and the lineup was considerably different than the last time he did. I can’t imagine that somehow he’s going to make pick and rolls with Vonleh and Robinson after hardly playing point guard with them. I’d like him to figure it out in a few games, but it’s more likely to take all season.

  81. Bruno Almeida

    @96

    I mean, this time I agree with you, it’s a game against the fully healthy Golden State Warriors. They beat us by pretty much the same margin they did the Suns, an equally bad team, and the Wizards, a bad team but better than us. I know the circumstances of the game matter and all but when we’re dealing with all-time great teams with 2 first ballot hall of famers on their primes I don’t think anything is worthy too much discussion.

    Ntilikina has been disappointing. He’s also promising and has some qualities.

  82. thenoblefacehumper

    although I’d like to see him off the ball more…he needs to prepare for that role. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t ever initiate the offense, only that it should not be his primary responsibility. Guys like Mitch and Knox need to develop as well, and they need a PG doing PG things to do their thing.

    Now this I don’t understand. It would be one thing if there was a clearly superior option on the roster, but we’re talking about Emmanuel Mudiay, who is Emmanuel Mudiay, and Trey Burke, who has been dog shit so far.

    Additionally, while quality point guard play probably helps other guys develop a little I don’t see any reason to think it’s an essential part of the process. I can’t think of a player who it would make sense to say “he probably would’ve turned out better if he had a better point guard to begin his career” about.

    I’d give Frank the vast majority of point guard minutes and let him sink or swim. I’ve already made it clear what I think would happen in that scenario but I see no downside to it.

  83. Z-man

    In an odd way, he’s less disappointing to me because he’s turning out to be pretty much what I realistically hoped for, which is a potentially very good 3-and-D combo wing. If he develops into anything more than a solid utility player, good for him and good for us!

  84. Bruno Almeida

    I agreed with swift’s post, I don’t know if the numbers are weird and all again. Of course I don’t really agree with the last part, but more that we shouldn’t overreact to losing to the damn Warriors hahahah.

  85. ess-dog

    Btw Miles Bridges has played pretty damn good in his first 86 minutes of pro ball, but he has a pg that does pg things so…

  86. 2FOR18, understands math

    Worst thread evah!
    Except for “Chuck Hardaway ” Brilliant. I make a motion that from here on out, he’s referred to as “Chuck” on here.

Leave a Reply