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Saturday, August 30, 2014

Game Thread: Knicks vs. Pistons

Knicks off to a good start, 16-5, let’s see what they can do today…

73 comments on “Game Thread: Knicks vs. Pistons

  1. Kikuchiyo

    One way to look at our current paucity of guards is that, in fact, the Knicks have many excellent guards on the payroll. What team has a better trio (numbers-wise) than:

    *Allan Houston
    *Stephon Marbury
    *Isiah Thomas

    Sure, Isiah is a little old, and his attitude /mindset is even worse than Starbury’s. But he looks fit, we pay him a lot, and I’d prefer to see him, in the short shorts, over Roberson.

  2. Italian Stallion

    I didn’t even know the game started so early. I stumbled on to it by accident and we were winning by 29. Maybe I shouldn’t watch the games. LOL

  3. Gorky

    Halftime: Knicks 65, Pistons 43. Only 47 possessions. Good half by the Knicks, or bad half by the Pistons? Probably both.

  4. Italian Stallion

    Halftime: Knicks 65, Pistons 43. Only 47 possessions. Good half by the Knicks, or bad half by the Pistons? Probably both.

    22 points is not enough for me to totally relax against the Pistons.

  5. nj hoop

    Maybe Curry will get fired after this game, and the Knicks will be 2 for 2 in “coach killing” (see Eddie Jordan)

  6. BigBlueAL

    Jared Jeffries might be the worst offensive player in the planet. Not the NBA, the entire freaking planet!!!!

  7. Italian Stallion

    Jared Jeffries might be the worst offensive player in the planet. Not the NBA, the entire freaking planet!!!!

    I guess we are starting to remember why we didn’t like him so much last year. LOL

  8. Brian Cronin

    What’s insane is that it has taken some really good plays by Lee for them to still be up by seven at this point!

  9. o_boogie

    “Jared Jeffries might be the worst offensive player in the planet. Not the NBA, the entire freaking planet!!!!”

    I nominate Jason Collins.

    Man this is bad. If we lose this game I’m going to be pretty upset. This is the time we need Nate’s energy to hit s jumper or make a key assist.

  10. o_boogie

    Barring that clutch 3 WC just hit, he has been awful this game. He has been forcing lot of bad shots and holding the ball on the perimeter too long. When he does make a good move driving to the hoop, he makes a bad pass. Gotta get his ish together.

    Glad to see Roberson is gonna get a DNP-CD.

  11. Italian Stallion

    Barring that clutch 3 WC just hit, he has been awful this game. He has been forcing lot of bad shots and holding the ball on the perimeter too long. When he does make a good move driving to the hoop, he makes a bad pass. Gotta get his ish together.
    Glad to see Roberson is gonna get a DNP-CD.

    I missed a lot of the game, but his stat line looks fine.

    6/13, 2/6, 3/3 and 8 boards.

  12. Italian Stallion

    Thank God we escaped with that win. A loss would have been dreadful for them mentally. Lee is getting all his own rebounds plus most of Randolph’s and I love the way he is working with Duhon. We just need for Robinson to get healthy and then find a SG if Mobley retires and we’ll be fairly competitive on most nights unless we are dead from the 3 point line. (and we still have Gallinari to look forward to as a potential depth improver)

  13. Z

    Once again, our own Thomas B. calls it:

    “12 p.m. opening tip. The Pistons will be on the road and maybe they partied a bit Saturday night in New York. Maybe they will be sluggish for this game.”

  14. o_boogie

    IS,

    WC only got charged 1 turnover, but he threw a few errant passes that the receiver bobbled and resulted in a Piston steal. Also, during our great 1st half the ball was moving fluidly and there was a lot of passing. 2nd half we stopped passing and played 1 vs 1. WC was one of the primary culprits along with Harrington, breaking the offensive continuity. I really like WC’s skillset, but he has to not be a black hole and make quicker decisions with the ball if he is to get improve his game.

    Jared Jeffries needs to be revoked shooting privileges.

  15. o_boogie

    On a brighter note, during this tough 4 game stretch (Detroit, Portland, Cleveland, and Atlanta) we showed a lot of fight. I was only expecting us to win 1 of the 4. However, we stayed competitive against Portland and Atlanta. Winning either of those games would have been excellent, but our thin rotation has definitely been holding us back from playing up to our full potential. Hopefully we can get this Marbury thing resolved so we can sign another guard and have Nate come back healthy.

  16. Jack

    Duhon is one hell of a pickup. The guy really knows how to orchestrate an offense. He was having back spasms and was still able to log in 48 minutes tonight. Great game by him overall.

  17. beanmaxz

    The Pistons party every Saturday night, and pretty hard it seems. Still winless on Sundays, and they’ve looked amazingly listless each time.

    Here’s Rasheed Wallace’s line for all Sunday games this season: 19-60, 7-27 on threes. Ouch. I hardly noticed him out there today.

    Good win for the Knicks regardless…it was looking like the Dallas game all over again. Duhon playing 40+ minutes every game is going to be murder on him, though.

  18. GAx

    I like the energy and ball movement we showed early on in the game, though a lot of that went away in the 2nd half. Some of that could be fatigue and unfamiliarity with the new pieces in and some of that was Detroit just playing much more crisply on D and taking better care of the ball(0 turnovers until we were far along into the 2nd half).

    I actually almost _want_ us to lose some of these games, since we’ve shown we won but hey let’s get in the Sherman towards Rubio! Then we win, and now that we have a plan on the clipboard instead of a creepy stare and pursed lips on the sideline I want to see what this current team at full strength can do. I mean, man did Lee just get 10-20 for a double(x2) 6 games in a row? It’s like he gets stronger as his Vitamin Hair grows out. Duhon gets the reins without the fear of a Skiles hook with the first gaffe and he starts to show he may be more than contract filler, like reaaally close to Ward. We’re even making Tim Thomas kind of useful for chrissake.

    I don’t want to come off like we’re making the playoffs this year. Wins like this have to be tempered with reason as well. It was an odd game from the Pistons, and they haven’t won on Sunday since preseason. I just like to deposit games like this and the GS game and put that and the eventual cumulative 9(?)losing seasons in the bank so that when 2010 comes around and we can sign who we need to sign and fix what we need to fix, the interest will be that much sweeter.

  19. BigBlueAL

    When all was said and done, GREAT win for the Knicks today. I know someone still complained about Chandler, but I thought today was one of his best games in weeks. Jeffries does make a big difference on Defense, but my God its not that he is absolutely HORRIBLE on offense, its that apparently he thinks he is pretty good cause he takes shots and drives like he can score!!!!

    Once Nate comes back 100%, this team will still be fun to watch and win their share of games.

  20. beanmaxz

    You can tell with this kind of offense why D’Antoni likes Euro players like Gallinari (and he probably wouldn’t mind Bargnani from the Raps either), even though some fans think Euros are soft. He values ball movement and wants everyone to be able to make good decisions on the fly, no matter what your position, and it just doesn’t seem to come as naturally to players like Jeffries, Thomas or Chandler…when these guys are forced to take one or two dribbles, it’s like an automatic turnover if there isn’t an open shot available.

    It was painful watching WC hold on to the ball too long or take ill-advised jumpers for much of the second half, and even when he made that extra pass to Lee toward the end of the game, he looked really awkward doing it.

    GAx, I hear you on wanting that lottery pick and being ambivalent about the team’s success sometimes, but I love that D’Antoni wants to win. I think the coach and GM realize that free agents are going to come to a team with a winning culture, not a team in the tank accumulating bad habits and bad attitudes while waiting for some magical arrival of talent.

    I completely forgot that we killed the Pistons last season too, but everyone remembers that the Knicks crowd was watching the Giants against Dallas on the scoreboard, and couldn’t be bothered with the product on the floor. (I’ve blocked out the last two seasons from memory anyway) No more of that please.

  21. JK47

    At some point we’ve gotta get some warm bodies who can get in there and spell the starters, especially Duhon. Dude played 48 minutes today. This seven man rotation stuff has got to be brutal for these guys.

  22. Italian Stallion

    I’ve been reading just about every article I can find on Mobley. I’m convinced he WANTS to retire because he doesn’t want to play for the Knicks (no matter what is said by others). When the trade was first announced, his quotes in the paper made it sound like he was really disappointed to leave the Clippers.

    Now, everything I read suggests that this is the same ailment that he’s been playing with all along. Waivers were signed and he played.

    I’m not going to say he should play because it’s his life, family etc… at risk, but I’d be willing to bet that he’d be playing for the Clippers right now if he wasn’t traded and had gone through the same exact tests. I think he doesn’t really want to come to NY to be a “rent a player” for a bad team for two years and have that incremental risk when he can stay home and collect the same paycheck and retire (which is what he was likely to do after this contract anyway).

  23. caleb

    Lots of good things to say – lots of contributions from a lot of people.

    I’ll just mention one…

    David Lee the last nine games (since taking over for Zach):
    18.1 ppg
    14.6 rpg
    61.4 TS%

    He hasn’t shot less than 50% (actual FG%) in that stretch, and only 3 times all season.

  24. Italian Stallion

    Lots of good things to say – lots of contributions from a lot of people.
    I’ll just mention one…
    David Lee the last nine games (since taking over for Zach):18.1 ppg14.6 rpg61.4 TS%
    He hasn’t shot less than 50% (actual FG%) in that stretch, and only 3 times all season.

    I think this is an example of dimishing returns in reverse.

    As soon as Zach left, both Lee’s rebounds and PPG improved – exactly what I would have expected. Randolph is a good rebounder, but someone on the Knicks was going to get some of the ones he used to get (especially on the defensive end). Harrington is getting some and Lee is getting some etc..

    Same on the scoring end. Zach took a lot of shots per game. If you remove him, the shots don’t vanish. Harrington is taking the outside shots and Lee/Duhon have developed a great chemistry that’s getting more high quality shots for Lee.

  25. jon abbey

    whoever was complaining about Chandler, he had Tayshaun Prince on him all game, of course some of his shots looked forced.

    good game for NY, but more about Detroit’s bad chemistry and Rasheed being invisible, no reason he shouldn’t be able to score in the post all game. some of Lee’s numbers are attributable to that also. anyway, amazing we can beat anyone with this seven man rotation, Duhon is a MAN.

  26. caleb

    DL could average 25 and 15 all year, and the comments would be, “It’s awesome how Chandler opens up the floor for him!”

  27. JK47

    Duhon is a MAN.

    Agreed. He brings a lot of things to the table that this team was sorely lacking, mainly toughness, tenacity and a willingness to play hard-nosed defense. He’s an old-school style Knick.

  28. nj hoop

    We’ve really gotta give a lot of props to Duhon for the way he’s played since joining the Knicks. Other than that 7 TO nightmare against the Hawks, he’s made good decisions with the ball all season, works the pick and roll great with Lee, plays solid D and knocks down the occasional clutch 3 as well. I think he’s done everything you could ask, including playing a ridiculous amount of minutes.

    On the Detroit side, this affirms that the East is absolutely a 2 team race with a bunch of pretenders on the outside looking in. You can tell they really don’t like playing with Iverson.

  29. Thomas B.

    The Pistons looked sluggish in the first quarter. As if the 12 p.m. start and maybe the NYC night life took its toll.

    I read something about a week ago that advised fans to “watch for” that sort of thing. Gee, who was it that wrote that? Oh well, whoever this handsome young genius may be-I’m sure he’ll be back with more insight each and every week.

  30. Thomas B.

    Early on but the wheels might be falling off the Raptor’s bus. Hey if they fall off and the Wiz stay off that gives the Knicks a better chance to make the top 8.

    If we do make the top 8 in the East, should we just give the lottery pick to the Jazz this year and keep the unprotectd pick for ourselves next year.

    If we are not in the lottery I say give the pick the Utah this year. The draft is nt going to be that deep (so espn says), so if we are out of the lottery, I say give Utah the pick and keep the unprotected pick for ourselves just in case we have a really bad season in 2009-10.

    I dont even know if the rules allow us the waive the pick protection, but that is just what I would do.

  31. Greene

    I’ve been reading just about every article I can find on Mobley. I’m convinced he WANTS to retire because he doesn’t want to play for the Knicks (no matter what is said by others). When the trade was first announced, his quotes in the paper made it sound like he was really disappointed to leave the Clippers.
    Now, everything I read suggests that this is the same ailment that he’s been playing with all along. Waivers were signed and he played.
    I’m not going to say he should play because it’s his life, family etc… at risk, but I’d be willing to bet that he’d be playing for the Clippers right now if he wasn’t traded and had gone through the same exact tests. I think he doesn’t really want to come to NY to be a “rent a player” for a bad team for two years and have that incremental risk when he can stay home and collect the same paycheck and retire (which is what he was likely to do after this contract anyway).

    i think that is very presumptuous. first the clippers are way worse than the knicks so that part of your point does not make sense. second in the press conference when he came over he seemed very enthusiastic. i think the knicks are covering their asses on this thing with cablevision being a public company and i also think his situation has worsened it seems.

    nice win for the knicks. these guys are much more mentally tough than last year. d’antoni has done a nice job keeping them positive. duhon is a great pickup. again i think the fact that he expires after next season is NOT a good thing. an extension will cost us more cap space and we do not want to start over at point guard. we want to bring in the new free agents to play with someone who knows how to run the system. if lee keeps this up is he close to an all star?

  32. Ted Nelson

    Great win, unfortunately I missed it.

    DL could average 25 and 15 all year, and the comments would be, “It’s awesome how Chandler opens up the floor for him!”

    Yeah.

    Greene,

    You seem to have missed the part of IS’s comment where he said “no matter what else is said by others.” He’s already so sure he’s right that it doesn’t matter if you get Cat Mobley to go over to his house tomorrow, he’s still going to be convinced. Much like Stephon Marbury is the evil spawn of satan, uncapable of any rational thought in IS’s mind.

  33. Greene

    Great win, unfortunately I missed it.

    DL could average 25 and 15 all year, and the comments would be, “It’s awesome how Chandler opens up the floor for him!”

    Yeah.
    Greene,
    You seem to have missed the part of IS’s comment where he said “no matter what else is said by others.” He’s already so sure he’s right that it doesn’t matter if you get Cat Mobley to go over to his house tomorrow, he’s still going to be convinced. Much like Stephon Marbury is the evil spawn of satan, uncapable of any rational thought in IS’s mind.

    well i guess i agree with him on the marbury thing at least. the guy is just a stone cold loser.

  34. Owen Post author

    “DL could average 25 and 15 all year, and the comments would be, “It’s awesome how Chandler opens up the floor for him!”

    Yes. Nothing changes around here.

    He must have really come on, because when I left he was 0-4 from the field. I have to say, I am troubled by all the turnovers, but on the other hand his turnover rate is lower than it was two years ago. Lee sure has returned to form in a hurry. What happened to those bone spurs?

    Anyway, great win. Missed the giveback. It’s a high variance offense, when we shoot the lights out, (12-24 from 3) we can beat anyone. But when we start missing it can go the other way just as fast. But I will take a win over the Pistons anytime. Iverson sure stuck up the joint. Love that 6-18.

  35. AlbanyKnicks

    If we are not in the lottery I say give the pick the Utah this year. The draft is nt going to be that deep (so espn says), so if we are out of the lottery, I say give Utah the pick and keep the unprotected pick for ourselves just in case we have a really bad season in 2009-10.
    I dont even know if the rules allow us the waive the pick protection, but that is just what I would do.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-081206-07
    • New York to Utah via Phoenix (1-through-22 protection): The Jazz get this pick unconditionally in 2010 if it doesn’t happen in the next draft.

  36. jon abbey

    Duhon is a MAN.
    Agreed. He brings a lot of things to the table that this team was sorely lacking, mainly toughness, tenacity and a willingness to play hard-nosed defense. He’s an old-school style Knick.

    he reminds me a lot of a younger Mark Jackson on offense, able to control the game despite often being physically overmatched, and he’s even starting to throw in a teardrop or two. playing 48 minutes and outplaying both Iverson and Stuckey (combined even) is an insane effort, hopefully he can keep it up. Nate said he was hoping to be back in a week at 100% (fingers crossed).

    anyway, no Roberson/Rose=a chance at winning. Tim Thomas continues to be largely infuriating, but the effort generally seems to be there, so hopefully the results will improve a bit. Harrington was also more under control today, although him being in foul trouble helped there.

    and Jared Jeffries can play 20 minutes as long as he remembers what he’s not capable of, which is a lot. he looked good dunking the ball, otherwise he should probably pass (finger roll is a little outside of his range). he should just dedicate himself to rebounding and D, a la Rodman, I think he could get 7 or 8 a game in 20 minutes.

    and yeah, the Balkman thing continues to be infuriating, same with Trevor Ariza. so many bad decisions, the list is endless…

  37. KnicksFan420

    “danisrob”- Why JJ over balkman for d’antoni? IQ. Balkman’s b-ball IQ isnt very high. or hit a major wall. hes doing ok in den.
    but JJ is a student of the game, good quick decisions, we saw him make when posting up the smaller man hitting the open guy..
    lee’s passing has really been a issue. either too flashy or too lazy…too bad jj cant shoot..
    and i think lee is good. not great, its obvious he is being put in more advantageous situations now that the middle isnt clogged. add the fact that he is also receiving the ball in better spots now because of duhon and the slightly improved ball movement.
    I think its possible lee could succeed more with a lil help downlow,if they start JJ when hes fit. somehow i doubt d’antoni does it, cause the lineup now has 4 legit 3pt shooters, starting lee and jj takes that aspect away. TT and Al have been doing good breaking down the big men..
    I wasnt aware of the 2 trade excemptions, makes me feel a lil better about our situation this yr, maybe go hard after stackhouse? hes doing nothing in dallas, we can use a body at the 2… that would be the 1st move, securing another player there, could really make a difference right now. then i would get jr on the squad once the marbury stuff happens which might be next yr….

  38. RAy

    I’ve got to admit I never would have expected so much good play from Duhon. I bet the bulls wish they had him now. He has far exceeded my expectations. I was wishing Danillo was healthy yesterday because he would have definitely had some minutes. We need some healthy players out there because these guys are going to be worn out in the late half of the season. We just dont have enough fresh players. Walter Hermann coming in almost swung the game to Detroit. I see Harringtons effort on D but with him and some other guys getting into foul trouble there was no one else to provide consistent baskets. If Also, If Mobley retires I wonder who is out there that we can pick up on the cheap as a two guard?

  39. o_boogie

    “If Also, If Mobley retires I wonder who is out there that we can pick up on the cheap as a two guard?”

    One of the NY papers says the Knicks are interested in Quincy Douby.

    Another possibility is JJ Redick. I actually would like getting Redick since his game would fit nicely into D’Antoni’s system and he wouldn’t be as responsible for defense as he was in Orlando. His shooting ability is undeniable, but I have a feeling he has been suffering from confidence issues in Orlando, which would explain his struggles. Stan Van Gundy does not strike me as a players coach and Redick has been having a hard time finding minutes behind Nelson, Bogans, and Courtney Lee.

  40. caleb

    Why JJ over balkman for d’antoni? IQ. Balkman’s b-ball IQ isnt very high. or hit a major wall. hes doing ok in den.

    Uh….. how about, with $20 million left on his contract, you couldn’t give JJ away for an old bag of Shanden Andersen jerseys. Anyway, the actual choice wasn’t Balkman or JJ (or Chandler); it was Balkman vs. Collins or 2nd-round pick or Jerome James.

    I pretty much agree with this:

    and Jared Jeffries can play 20 minutes as long as he remembers what he’s not capable of, which is a lot. he looked good dunking the ball, otherwise he should probably pass (finger roll is a little outside of his range). he should just dedicate himself to rebounding and D…

    …except for this part

    …a la Rodman, I think he could get 7 or 8 a game in 20 minutes.

    it’s not like JJ’s heart is in the wrong place, he just can’t dribble, can’t shoot, has no moves and can’t catch a pass or a ball that’s bouncing off the backboard. Aside from that, he’s great.

  41. Owen Post author

    ********Renaldo Balkman update**********
    Kenyon Martin was out with a minor injury, so Balkman got the start and played 31 minutes as the Nuggets absolutely destroyed the Kings. Balk was a +35 for the game, 17 points on 8-12 shooting, with 3 assists, 3 steals, 1 block, and just one turnover, for a WS of 11. He did have 5 personal fouls and was 1-3 from the line, so those aspects of his game also seem to be remaining constant.
    *****End of Renaldo Balkman update******

    Duhon had a great game yesterday, really a great great game, but I think it bears mentioning that he committed 13 turnovers in the two previous games while shooting 5-21 from the field.

    Jeffries is not a good scorer and he has been dreadful as a Knick. But I still think he is more than capable of being the slightly above average player he was in Washington.

  42. njhoop

    ********Renaldo Balkman update**********
    Duhon had a great game yesterday, really a great great game, but I think it bears mentioning that he committed 13 turnovers in the two previous games while shooting 5-21 from the field.

    I think you’ve gotta throw out all stats from that Cavs game, esp. Duhon, who had nothing left in the tank. I’ll grant you he was shaky against the Hawks, but I think if you check other starting PG’s stats around the NBA, I’m sure those who log major minutes have those high TO games on occasion. I’ve got nothing but praise for Duhon so far, he’s done everything you could ask of a PG.

  43. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger)

    I still remember Redick’s last college game, Duke put Garrett Temple on him & Redick’s lack of athleticism really showed (he hit what 3-18. His per minute numbers have been mediocre (11.1 PER) although he can stroke it (.554 TS%).

    Although I liked Douby out of college, he’s been even worse in limited minutes. The guy shot 39% from downtown at Rutgers, but only 30% in the NBA.

    Honestly I’d take Frank Williams over these two. At least F-Dub could run the point & play D. Looks like his three point shot has come around too.

  44. njhoop

    “Duhon had a great game yesterday, really a great great game, but I think it bears mentioning that he committed 13 turnovers in the two previous games while shooting 5-21 from the field. ”

    I think you have to throw out all stats from that Cavs game, as the team was exhausted, particularly Duhon. I’ll grant you that he put up a stinker against the Hawks, but I think if you look at the stats of any starting PG in the NBA, esp. those with major minutes, they have those high TO games on occasion. Overall, I have nothing but praise for Duhon, some writer today compared him to Derek Harper, which I think is appropriate.

  45. Italian Stallion

    Great win, unfortunately I missed it.

    DL could average 25 and 15 all year, and the comments would be, “It’s awesome how Chandler opens up the floor for him!”

    Yeah.
    Greene,
    You seem to have missed the part of IS’s comment where he said “no matter what else is said by others.” He’s already so sure he’s right that it doesn’t matter if you get Cat Mobley to go over to his house tomorrow, he’s still going to be convinced. Much like Stephon Marbury is the evil spawn of satan, uncapable of any rational thought in IS’s mind.

    Ted,

    I think it’s pretty much a waste of my time and energy to repond to anything you say because you are just a pain the ass, but I’m not even sure what’s prompting your silly behavior this time.

    If you read the original Mobley quotes it was obvious he was disappointed to be traded to the Knicks. So if another player like Francis or he publicly says that he wants to come to the Knicks it’s BS. It’s just playing the part of a good soldier.

    I don’t think it’s a leap based on the known information to conclude at this point that he doesn’t want to play for NY. If some NEW information comes out about his medical condition that wasn’t known by his previous two teams (that he signed waivers for) I’ll be the first to say that he should probably retire. In fact, I have no problem if he retires anyway. It’s his life, family etc… at risk. That simply doesn’t change the fact that he basically said he wanted to stay with the Clippers and based on what we know now, that may be playing a part in this.

    I realize you aren’t capable of accepting any point of view without arguing the other side for 100 posts and 15 days because it’s your nature, but I can assure you he was disappointed to come to the Knicks NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE ELSE SAYS. I READ HIS INITIAL RESPONSE.

  46. Italian Stallion

    I thought we discussed this Balkman vs. Jeffries issue already.

    Not that I totally agree with management’s thinking, but it seems to have gone something like this:

    If you considered them roughly similar and redundant players at the time of the trade, there seemed to be a surplus at that spot. (Of course that changed when Gallinari went down and Jeffries got hurt). Walsh wanted to open a roster spot and decided that Balkman was the odd man out.

    There were probably several reasons for that.

    1. His contract was very easy to move relative to Jeffries

    2. D’Antoni likes Jeffries “high basketball IQ”, “glue qualities” and versatility to play the 5.

    3. There are some rumors about Balkman’s habits

    That more or less explains the move. That certainly doesn’t make it right though.

  47. Italian Stallion

    By the way, I think David Lee is playing great since the trade. However, that doesn’t change the fact that he’s getting more minutes, more offensive touches, and more opportunities to get a defensive rebound with Randolph gone.

    My point wasn’t to dimish his accomplishments because he’s continuing to be very efficient at the higher usage level, but to point out the validity of dimishing returns (and the reverse) on stats. I would have bet any amount of money his numbers were going to go up after the trade (especially rebounding).

    I also thought it was important to note that his scoring efficiency is remaining high because he and Duhon are working the pick and roll so well it’s allowing him to get a higher number of very high quality shots per game. It’s not that he’s taking more shots of lower quality and hitting them (shot that Randolph used to take). That part of it was no mortal lock. Two players deserve the credit for that.

  48. Caleb

    The Balkman trade looks a LITTLE better now, because the Clippers look like they’re really headed for the crapper. In 2010, we get the Clippers 2010 2nd rounder, or the Nuggets pick, whichever is higher. That pick could easily be top-35. Not good enough to make it a good trade, but a lot better than #50.

    btw – I forgot, but we don’t have a second-round pick this year. Part of the Curry trade.

  49. Ted Nelson
    Great win, unfortunately I missed it.

    DL could average 25 and 15 all year, and the comments would be, “It’s awesome how Chandler opens up the floor for him!”

    Yeah.Greene,You seem to have missed the part of IS’s comment where he said “no matter what else is said by others.” He’s already so sure he’s right that it doesn’t matter if you get Cat Mobley to go over to his house tomorrow, he’s still going to be convinced. Much like Stephon Marbury is the evil spawn of satan, uncapable of any rational thought in IS’s mind.

    Ted,
    I think it’s pretty much a waste of my time and energy to repond to anything you say because you are just a pain the ass, but I’m not even sure what’s prompting your silly behavior this time.
    If you read the original Mobley quotes it was obvious he was disappointed to be traded to the Knicks. So if another player like Francis or he publicly says that he wants to come to the Knicks it’s BS. It’s just playing the part of a good soldier.
    I don’t think it’s a leap based on the known information to conclude at this point that he doesn’t want to play for NY. If some NEW information comes out about his medical condition that wasn’t known by his previous two teams (that he signed waivers for) I’ll be the first to say that he should probably retire. In fact, I have no problem if he retires anyway. It’s his life, family etc… at risk. That simply doesn’t change the fact that he basically said he wanted to stay with the Clippers and based on what we know now, that may be playing a part in this.
    I realize you aren’t capable of accepting any point of view without arguing the other side for 100 posts and 15 days because it’s your nature, but I can assure you he was disappointed to come to the Knicks NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE ELSE SAYS. I READ HIS INITIAL RESPONSE.

    IS,

    Since I started coming here a few years back, this has always been a place of (mostly) logical, and often heated discussion.

    To say that Stephon Marbury is an outright “bad” person incapable of any rationality or act of decency without knowing him, and to place every single ounce of blame for this situation on him without assigning even one ounce to the Knicks does not strike me as logical. So I said as much. To say that you’re so sure Cat Mobley is just taking the lazy way out and you’re unwilling to even discuss it is the equivelent of me saying I think you just had a headache and didn’t need nuero-surgery. It’s one thing to argue that your opinion in either case is right, but it’s another thing altogether to say that there is absolutely no way you can be convinced you are wrong. There’s no discussion there.

    If you’re going to make very strong statements in one direction I feel like you have to expect a response from someone who disagrees. You often make very strong statements, I often disagree. Why this has to lead you to bash my character (again without knowing me), I don’t know.

  50. Caleb

    he’s getting more minutes, more offensive touches, and more opportunities to get a defensive rebound with Randolph gone…. his scoring efficiency is remaining high because he and Duhon are working the pick and roll so well

    I would agree that his rebound rate is affected by Randolph’s departure, and that he plays well with Duhon… but I think you are taking him a little for granted. Lee’s rebound rate was almost as good as Randolph last year, and better the year before. And he has been extremely efficient the past two years, without Duhon. Lee makes the PG look good — by catching those passes and having good timing — not just the other way around.

    Anyway, I also agree with you that his big #s were easy to predict – they’re not much different than his per-minute numbers the last two years. But there were many people on the board who didn’t think it would work that way… after all, he’s playing against starters now :)

  51. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I saw the game live. Tayshaun Prince’s dunk near the end of the game lit the crowd up, but Lee’s comeback slam blew the roof off of the place. Very enjoyable experience, my first at the Garden since I saw Isaiah Rider’s T-Wolves back in the 90s. It’s interesting how different each player’s athleticism comes through in person. Wilson Chandler’s handle didn’t look nearly as smooth through my own eyes than it does on the TV.

  52. Ted Nelson

    As far as the actual Mobley statement, there is definitely a chance he just wants to retire rather than come to NY and has to put on an act to get the medical retirement. I also read the initial response, and anyone could see he appeared dissapointed to be traded. It could have also been an initial shock to being dealt or just playing the good soldier and supposrting his old teammates rather than saying “hell yeah, screw you and your overcontrolling offense Dunleavey, I’m out of here and into D’Antoni’s high flying attack.” He said that he still believed in the Clippers (yes, those Clippers), that’s hard for me to take at face value.

    “As soon as Zach left, both Lee’s rebounds and PPG improved – exactly what I would have expected. Randolph is a good rebounder, but someone on the Knicks was going to get some of the ones he used to get (especially on the defensive end). Harrington is getting some and Lee is getting some etc..
    Same on the scoring end. Zach took a lot of shots per game. If you remove him, the shots don’t vanish. Harrington is taking the outside shots and Lee/Duhon have developed a great chemistry that’s getting more high quality shots for Lee.”

    It’s hard not to read that as Lee-bashing. I agree with your more recent post, but the first post read exactly like your point was “to dimish his accomplishments.” I mean Malik Rose (or even Wilson Chandler) also could have stepped up in Zach’s absence, but it hasn’t happened.
    I tend to agree with Caleb that you seem to take Lee for granted, would you say, for example, that Kevin Garnett was simply taking the minutes and touches left behind by Donyell Marshall in Minnesota? (Garnett played twice as many minutes his rookie season as Marshall had the season before, but it was supposed to be a ridiculously exaggerated example.)

  53. o_boogie

    IS and Ted:

    Regarding Mobley, both of you make valid points but there are some other possibilities to consider. Firstly, maybe Mobley has a family and is eastablished in CA and doesn’t want to leave his family. Playing in NY would mean he would never see his family; assuming they weren’t open to moving. If he retired that would solve that problem. If he has children maybe his priorities of life are changing, he may not be willing to risk dying as much as he would in the past.

    IS, you claim that Mobley seemed unethused to be playing for NY since he being treated like an expiring contract. However, I am 100% sure any player would rather play for D’Antoni than Dunleavy. Dunleavy has a history of being abrasive and has shown time in and time out that he is not a players coach. If you read any of Bill Simmons articles, look at the Elgin Baylor debacle, or the Elton Brand episode this would all support that theory.

    If Mobley was interested in $, going to NY wouldn’t be a bad thing either. Playing under D’Antoni can help a player inflate their numbers, especially shooters like Mobley. Two years from now he may be been out of the league or signed for veterans minimum if he stayed in LA. In NY, if he strings together two good seasons he could get something closer to half or the whole mid-level exception. Also, it is not like there is a lack of minutes in NY; he would be playing probably 20+ minutes a night based on our backcourt issues.

    Based on the current information it is very hard to read into the situation (any predictions Thomas B.?). Either way I wish he was playing for us right now. But if he retires I respect that, too.

  54. Italian Stallion

    Great win, unfortunately I missed it.

    DL could average 25 and 15 all year, and the comments would be, “It’s awesome how Chandler opens up the floor for him!”

    Yeah.Greene,You seem to have missed the part of IS’s comment where he said “no matter what else is said by others.” He’s already so sure he’s right that it doesn’t matter if you get Cat Mobley to go over to his house tomorrow, he’s still going to be convinced. Much like Stephon Marbury is the evil spawn of satan, uncapable of any rational thought in IS’s mind.

    Ted,I think it’s pretty much a waste of my time and energy to repond to anything you say because you are just a pain the ass, but I’m not even sure what’s prompting your silly behavior this time.If you read the original Mobley quotes it was obvious he was disappointed to be traded to the Knicks. So if another player like Francis or he publicly says that he wants to come to the Knicks it’s BS. It’s just playing the part of a good soldier.I don’t think it’s a leap based on the known information to conclude at this point that he doesn’t want to play for NY. If some NEW information comes out about his medical condition that wasn’t known by his previous two teams (that he signed waivers for) I’ll be the first to say that he should probably retire. In fact, I have no problem if he retires anyway. It’s his life, family etc… at risk. That simply doesn’t change the fact that he basically said he wanted to stay with the Clippers and based on what we know now, that may be playing a part in this.I realize you aren’t capable of accepting any point of view without arguing the other side for 100 posts and 15 days because it’s your nature, but I can assure you he was disappointed to come to the Knicks NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE ELSE SAYS. I READ HIS INITIAL RESPONSE.

    IS,
    Since I started coming here a few years back, this has always been a place of (mostly) logical, and often heated discussion.
    To say that Stephon Marbury is an outright “bad” person incapable of any rationality or act of decency without knowing him, and to place every single ounce of blame for this situation on him without assigning even one ounce to the Knicks does not strike me as logical. So I said as much. To say that you’re so sure Cat Mobley is just taking the lazy way out and you’re unwilling to even discuss it is the equivelent of me saying I think you just had a headache and didn’t need nuero-surgery. It’s one thing to argue that your opinion in either case is right, but it’s another thing altogether to say that there is absolutely no way you can be convinced you are wrong. There’s no discussion there.
    If you’re going to make very strong statements in one direction I feel like you have to expect a response from someone who disagrees. You often make very strong statements, I often disagree. Why this has to lead you to bash my character (again without knowing me), I don’t know.

    Ted,

    I never said Marbury was a bad person. This is your typical nonsense that I am growing very weary of. I wish we had an ignmore feature here.

    I said things like – he’s a very self centered player, destroys team chemistry, is disliked by his teamates, was likely to behave badly if told he was out of the plans before pre season, etc…. I based that on everything he has done to date as a Knick and elswhere – including his recent outbursts and unwillingness to play. That’s a lot different from calling him a bad person. I just think you have to more or less be an idiot to want him on your team and look forward to the day he is finally gone.

    I didn’t say I wasn’t willing to discuss Mobley’s situation. I took exception to your tone with me. I also said that BARRING INCREMENTAL INFOMATION about his health, no one is going to convince me that coming to the Knicks is not a factor in this process because it was very clear from his initial comments he was disappointed by the trade. He also had no problem playing with this condition and signing waivers for two prior teams. So barring incremental information about risks to his health what do you suppose is driving all this retirement talk? (please don’t answer because I don’t want to discuss it with YOU)

  55. Italian Stallion

    Great win, unfortunately I missed it.

    DL could average 25 and 15 all year, and the comments would be, “It’s awesome how Chandler opens up the floor for him!”

    Yeah.Greene,You seem to have missed the part of IS’s comment where he said “no matter what else is said by others.” He’s already so sure he’s right that it doesn’t matter if you get Cat Mobley to go over to his house tomorrow, he’s still going to be convinced. Much like Stephon Marbury is the evil spawn of satan, uncapable of any rational thought in IS’s mind.

    Ted,I think it’s pretty much a waste of my time and energy to repond to anything you say because you are just a pain the ass, but I’m not even sure what’s prompting your silly behavior this time.If you read the original Mobley quotes it was obvious he was disappointed to be traded to the Knicks. So if another player like Francis or he publicly says that he wants to come to the Knicks it’s BS. It’s just playing the part of a good soldier.I don’t think it’s a leap based on the known information to conclude at this point that he doesn’t want to play for NY. If some NEW information comes out about his medical condition that wasn’t known by his previous two teams (that he signed waivers for) I’ll be the first to say that he should probably retire. In fact, I have no problem if he retires anyway. It’s his life, family etc… at risk. That simply doesn’t change the fact that he basically said he wanted to stay with the Clippers and based on what we know now, that may be playing a part in this.I realize you aren’t capable of accepting any point of view without arguing the other side for 100 posts and 15 days because it’s your nature, but I can assure you he was disappointed to come to the Knicks NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE ELSE SAYS. I READ HIS INITIAL RESPONSE.

    IS,
    Since I started coming here a few years back, this has always been a place of (mostly) logical, and often heated discussion.
    To say that Stephon Marbury is an outright “bad” person incapable of any rationality or act of decency without knowing him, and to place every single ounce of blame for this situation on him without assigning even one ounce to the Knicks does not strike me as logical. So I said as much. To say that you’re so sure Cat Mobley is just taking the lazy way out and you’re unwilling to even discuss it is the equivelent of me saying I think you just had a headache and didn’t need nuero-surgery. It’s one thing to argue that your opinion in either case is right, but it’s another thing altogether to say that there is absolutely no way you can be convinced you are wrong. There’s no discussion there.
    If you’re going to make very strong statements in one direction I feel like you have to expect a response from someone who disagrees. You often make very strong statements, I often disagree. Why this has to lead you to bash my character (again without knowing me), I don’t know.

    Ted,

    I never said Marbury was a bad person. This is kind of nonsense that I am growing very weary of and make me wish we had an ignore feature here.

    I said – he’s a very self centered player, destroys team chemistry, is disliked by his teamates, was likely to behave badly if told he was out of the plans before pre season, etc…. I based that opinion on everything he has done to date as a Knick and elswhere – including his recent outbursts and unwillingness to play when asked. That’s a lot different from calling him a bad person. I more or less think you have to be an idiot to want him on your team and look forward to the day he is finally gone.

    I didn’t say I wasn’t willing to discuss Mobley’s situation. I said that BARRING INCREMENTAL INFROMATION about his health, no one is going to convince me that coming to the Knicks is not a factor in this process because it was very clear from his initial comments he was disappointed by the trade. He also had no problem playing with this condition and signing waivers for two prior teams. So barring incremental information about risks to his health what do you suppose is driving all this retirement talk? (please don’t answer because I don’t want to discuss it with YOU)

  56. Italian Stallion
    he’s getting more minutes, more offensive touches, and more opportunities to get a defensive rebound with Randolph gone…. his scoring efficiency is remaining high because he and Duhon are working the pick and roll so well

    I would agree that his rebound rate is affected by Randolph’s departure, and that he plays well with Duhon… but I think you are taking him a little for granted. Lee’s rebound rate was almost as good as Randolph last year, and better the year before. And he has been extremely efficient the past two years, without Duhon. Lee makes the PG look good — by catching those passes and having good timing — not just the other way around.
    Anyway, I also agree with you that his big #s were easy to predict – they’re not much different than his per-minute numbers the last two years. But there were many people on the board who didn’t think it would work that way… after all, he’s playing against starters now :)

    I think we more or less agree, but I don’t think similar efficiency is a given as usage increases. I think Lee’s rebounding was very likely to increase because it’s one of his best assets, a weakness for the Knicks in general, and a big gap was created by Randolph leaving.

    On the scoring side, I would say I am mildly surprised that he has been able to remain as efficient with increased scoring because shots around the basket are difficult to come by. That’s why I am giving credit to both he and Duhon (and perhaps I should include the coaching staff) for their excellent play since then. I would have guessed that Harrington would score more and the rest of the team would have picked up some of the rest. But it appears Lee is getting more than his fair share. When other teams start taking away his role to the basket, the other players may start scoring more as the balls starts getting kicked out.

  57. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Why are we even talking about RPG? Rebound percentage is much, much more effective as a metric of rebounding skill.

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