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Monday, July 28, 2014

Game Thread: Knicks vs. Cavaliers

Lebron part deux. Eight days ago, his appearance in New York generated reams of publicity and some controversy, along with a very solid 26 point outing in only 30 minutes of action. I have a feeling that he will look to put up some big numbers tonight to keep the hometown fans happy.

Those Cleveland fans have a lot to be happy about these days. The Cavs are firmly in control of the Central division and are the second best team in basketball right now with a +11 efficiency differential. Although they play at only 23rd fastest pace in the league, they field the best offense in the NBA, a significant improvement over last year.

After last night’s game against the Trailblazers this will be a big test for the Knicks. It’s hard to expect much, but I think that at the very least we can count on them playing hard, one of the things which is making me proud to be a Knicks fan again.

77 comments on “Game Thread: Knicks vs. Cavaliers

  1. Thomas B.

    What to watch for: Defense. When the Knicks last played the Cavs, I suggested that the Knicks pressure the ball and force the Cavs into poor shots and sloppy play. What did the Knicks do? They allowed the Cavs to post a 58.4 eFG% while only forcing 8 turnovers. The boys in blue have to do better. Hopefully, Mobley will be available to help the back court defense. I know the team should always play good defense, but it is crucial when playing a team as efficient as the Cavs.

  2. Owen Post author

    Man, the combination of Chandler and Harrington guarantees a quick shot doesn’t it. Harrington 4-5 and Chandler 1-5.

  3. Starksfer3

    Not to knock the trades but………..man it was nice to have watchable basketball for a few weeks

  4. DRed

    To be fair, we’re horribly shorthanded and it’s the second half of a back to back against one of the two best teams in the conference.

  5. UK Knick

    Agreed. Not pretty at all. I guess the advantage I have of being 5 hours ahead is that I can go to bed now and review the carnage in the morning…have fun guys. Or not…

  6. Owen Post author

    Ooh, can’t believe that, Al Harrington just took Lebron out on the fast break, not part of the long term plan there buddy….

  7. Z

    Harrington flagrant foul on James. That’s one way to ruin our 2010 dreams– injure LeBron in a 30 point wipeout!

    Is Tim Thomas playing the 2?

  8. Thomas B.

    This is last week’s game all over again.
    The only difference is Cavs are in much much uglier uniforms. They look like fry cooks at Clown Burger.

  9. Thomas B.

    We play bad but at least we don’t LOOK bad. I mean, who designed those unis, Ronald McDonald?

  10. Gorky

    We play bad but at least we don’t LOOK bad. I mean, who designed those unis, Ronald McDonald?

    They thought they could get some of the Lakers’ mojo with yellow uniforms.

  11. Z

    “who designed those unis, Ronald McDonald?”

    Wait, it really is Cavelier’s McFamily Night at the game. I thought you were joking.

    Whoa– Tim Thomas with the best spin move and throw-down he’s ever done in a Knick uniform! Where was that four years ago?

  12. beanmaxz

    I think reality may be thudding hard this week — wouldn’t be surprised to see us go 0-4. The rest of December isn’t that special either.

    I like this team, and I know this is the second of a back to back, but are Jeffries and Nate really going to make up for the really weak inside defense and rebounding? Maybe I’ll be shocked by Jeffries.

  13. Z

    Al Harrington, Tim Thomas, Malik Rose, Wilson Chandler, and Anthony Roberson (is that his first name??)

    -this is probably the worst team the Knicks have ever put on the court at one time.

    I guess when you’re down 40, and you CAN break the record for worst 5 ever, you may as well…

  14. Z

    Q had the right idea, ducking out of this game early…

    Roberson actually took more 3 pointers than the entire team took free throws.

  15. Thomas B.

    “who designed those unis, Ronald McDonald?”

    Wait, it really is Cavelier’s McFamily Night at the game. I thought you were joking.

    Whoa– Tim Thomas with the best spin move and throw-down he’s ever done in a Knick uniform! Where was that four years ago?

    Delonte West with the red afro really does look like Ronald in those unis.

    Tim Thomas, always when it does not count.

  16. BigBlueAL

    not crazy about giving up Nate, but otherwise hopefully Walsh can make this happen:
    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2779~2177~1966~3418~1987~990~383~1717~509~2782~739&teams=18~18~18~18~18~5~5~3~14~3~3&te=&cash=

    I live in Miami and watch/read about the Heat a bit, and Ill tell you I dont think the Heat are that thrilled with Beasley. He gets his numbers, but hardly plays in the 4th qtr and down the stretch of games, and wasnt even starting games recently.

    Dont get me wrong he is still a nice talent and good player, but I can see why Riley was so upset about not getting Rose instead and why apparently the Heat seriously considered picking Mayo at #2 instead of Beasley.

  17. nj hoop

    I posted this once before on this forum and didn’t get much response, but since we just got blown out by a very formidable Cavs team which I think has a legit chance at a title, I’ll pose the question again:

    Should we be rooting for Lebron to get a ring with the Cavs or not? One school of thought says he’ll be more likely leave if he brings Cleveland a championship (mission accomplished) another says he’ll feel obligated to stay until he does win one.

    Interested to hear what you guys think.

  18. jon abbey

    I think we need to root for his teammates to let him down in the playoffs each of the next two seasons. what’s really scary is this may involve rooting for Boston, which may cause my head to explode.

  19. DRed

    I don’t know Jon-if he wins a ring now, I think he’d be more likely to come to NY and try to grow his brand some more by saving the Knicks. I suppose it depends on how ready you think that we’ll be to contending for a title when and if we can get Lebron.

  20. Z

    Root for Boston! Root for LA! Root for Miami! Root for the Bulls!

    Root for anyone the Cavs are playing in May or June. It’s a future investment…

  21. ess-dog

    Well the only good news today is that the Raptors became a shambles, opening the door for Bosh to bolt for the border.

    And can I just say that Zach Randolph looks like Oscar Freakin’ Robertson compared to Al Harrington?! It looks like he’s playing “hot potato” out there – but whipping it at the goal instead of his buddies.

    At least we have two professional players now, Lee and Duhon. But we have a 4 who is too short to play the 4 and won’t take it to the rim but doesn’t have a good enough handle to play the 3 (Chandler), a 4 who’s way too slight to play the 4 and too slow to play the 3 and has a bad back (Gallinari) and a shooting guard that is 5’7″ but not a bona fide point guard (Nate) as our “young core”… dear God, we need draft picks fast!

  22. nj hoop

    I think we need to root for his teammates to let him down in the playoffs each of the next two seasons. what’s really scary is this may involve rooting for Boston, which may cause my head to explode.

    You’re right, because no other team in the East is remotely close to these 2 teams -Philly, Toronto, Magic, Pistons – will all fall like dominoes in the playoffs. Sorry, I can’t root for the Celtics, I’ll take my chances that Kobe gets his in the Finals.

  23. Ted Nelson

    I think we definitely have to root against LeBron winning a ring in Cleveland. If his goal is to win championships, he’s done that in Cleveland, and still leaves… he looks like a total asshole. Part of the excuse for leaving is that Cleveland isn’t in as good a position to contend as NYK. If he’s won one in Cleveland and doesn’t win one quickly once he gets to NY his “brand” could be completely ruined and people wondering why he left the place he was winning rings. If you bring an NBA dynasty to even Kalamazoo your brand is going to be huge.

    Then again, Shaq could be an interesting precedent: he took Orlando to the Finals and if he got any heat for leaving it didn’t last. He wasn’t quite the icon LeBron is and wasn’t playing for his hometown team, though.

    ——————————————————-

    Ted – are you comparing Wilson Chandler, a 3/4, to two of the best shooting 2s in the last 20 years?

    No. I was comparing him to pure jump shooters, and only in the sense of drawing fouls.
    My two points were
    1. that being a jump shooter doesn’t necessarily prohibit you from getting to the FT line, just as scoring inside doesn’t mean you’re going to live at the line (I’m sure there’s a strong correlation, as I said I just don’t think it’s a direct relationship). Reggie Miller shot 94% jumpers his 39 year old season when he got to the line 4.6 times per 36.
    2. Finishing more efficiently around the rim doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll get to the line more.
    Here are some jump shooting 3 and/or 4s (sets of teammates one of whom shoots more efficiently inside than WC and one less, both of whom take the same or higher % jumpers than WC):
    ………%jumpers…eFG%inside…FGA/36…FTA/36
    WC…….67%……..533……….15.5…..2.3
    Dirk…..83%……..456……….18.6…..6.8
    JHoward..70%……..600……….16.4…..5.8
    Pavlovic.84%……..425……….7.8……4.6
    Szczerbiak.80%……625……….9.4……4.0
    Hedo…..68%……..512……….14.2…..5.2
    Rashard..81%……..604……….14.7…..3.7

    I do think FTA/36 generally improve with age, but WC is starting at a pretty low level. Maybe his defense can improve as much as Caleb hopes, but even if a guy’s a defensive specialist and also a high volume/medium-low efficiency scorer you almost always end up overpaying.

    ————————————————————-

    At least we have two professional players now, Lee and Duhon. But we have a 4 who is too short to play the 4 and won’t take it to the rim but doesn’t have a good enough handle to play the 3 (Chandler), a 4 who’s way too slight to play the 4 and too slow to play the 3 and has a bad back (Gallinari) and a shooting guard that is 5?7? but not a bona fide point guard (Nate) as our “young core”… dear God, we need draft picks fast!

    We certainly don’t have a great young core, I do think it’s a strong young supporting cast though. I think we have enough to potentially put a strong team around one or two 2010 free agents, with the addition of a 2009 lottery pick and a couple of vet’s min former All-Stars who would sign (…Nash).
    It’s pretty hard to comment on Gallinari when he hasn’t played an NBA game, unless you caught a bunch of AJ Milano games last season. Gallinari’s Knickerblogger stock has plummeted since he’s been injured, while Jeffries stock has soared. Before their injuries one was a 19 year old leading his team and the other was a 26 year old hanging on the edge of his team’s rotation, hard to tell which was which.

  24. DRed

    That also notes that Eddy’s bone bruise is on a weight carrying portion of his leg-I guess that means he won’t be back anytime soon.

  25. Italian Stallion

    Berman: Mobley thinking about retirement due to enlarged heart.http://www.nypost.com/seven/12042008/sports/knicks/mobley_close_to_retiring_142580.htm

    I have a funny feeling he can still play (sign a waiver like he did before) but doesn’t want to play in NY. When the trade first went down I read a quote from him that sounded like he was very disappointed to be traded to the Knicks. Perhaps he feels the health risk is too high to become a “rent a player” and get your butt kicked every night for the Knicks when you can sit home and get the same money.

    If he takes a medical retirement, that opens up some cash for the Knicks (I think 75%). I wonder when/if they can use that because they obviously need a SG quickly.

    I also read somewhere that Marbury wants to play again and is taking a discounted buyout off the table.

    (Please God, don’t allow the Knicks to feel so desperate that they bring Marbury back. I’d rather lose every game for the rest of the season than see that mug again. In fact, if they do bring him back I am boycotting the season and watching the Nets for the rest of the year).

  26. Italian Stallion

    That also notes that Eddy’s bone bruise is on a weight carrying portion of his leg-I guess that means he won’t be back anytime soon.

    If it’s on a weight carrying section I’m surprised his whole leg didn’t collapse. ;-)

  27. TDM

    If Mobley takes a medical retirement, there has been some discussion of bringing back Allan Houston to fill the spot. PEJ has also been mentioned obviously, but do we really need another SF on the roster or would a guard serve the Knicks needs better?

    Also, the marbury chronicles continue in Berman’s column today – now, marbs is demanding that the Knicks either play him or waive him. I’m sorry, didn’t he refuse to play 2x in the past couple of weeks which led to his banishment? What an ass. This looks like he’s getting a bit desperate.

  28. Frank O.

    I simply refuse to watch these games as they struggle. I don’t want to worry my good vibe for the team. It’s a cop out. I know.

    Having said that, with Mobley considering retiring, this is a real opportunity for the Knicks to find a guard at the same time Nate and Jeffries returns. Some fresh, albeit rusty, legs will rejuvenate this team, and it will give the new guys some time to acclimate.

    And I just wish the NY media would just let Houston retire. His body breaks down in practice. He’s simply done.

    Are there any reasonably decent guards floating around out there?

  29. njhoop

    While I appreciate that Walsh is trying to clean up the mess, after reading about Curry, we continue to be a joke of a franchise. We have 3 guys on our roster making a combined $37 million this year – one is banned from the team (Stinkbury), one hasn’t stepped on the court all season (Big Snacks) and one shows up to training camp fat and gets injured without playing a minute (fat Eddy) Nice work if you can get it, I guess.

  30. Italian Stallion

    Marbury painted himself into a corner.

    The Knicks don’t want him and couldn’t care less if he’s sitting at home.

    He hasn’t played since early last year.

    He’s coming off a surgery.

    He’s staring down the barrel of being banished for the whole year this year.

    He’s getting older.

    He already took the 1M starting point he offered off the table and said he won’t negotiate. Given his massive ego, that will make it more difficult to back peddle.

    How much of a contract can he possibly expect to get next year (if he can get one at all in the NBA) if he’s forced to sit out over a year and half when he has also failed to get along with his last 4 coaches and many of his current and former teamates don’t like him?

    Like I said, the calculations for a fair buyout are very straight forward. It’s the present value of his current contract minus what he can be signed for elsewhere. If he wasn’t such an idiot, this could have been over several weeks ago and he’d already be playing for another team.

  31. o_boogie

    It will be a shame if Mobley retires. I have always admired his game since he plays within his element, plays hard on D, and is a fairly consistent shooter. This is especially amplified considering we need backcourt help. I guess we could use his roster spot to find someone from the D league or an undrafted player as a stopgap. I can’t blame him tho because he is old and probably doesn’t want to play that hard considering he is just an “expiring contract.”

  32. Dan Panorama

    From the Post:

    “Allan Houston and Patrick Ewing Jr. are the two likeliest candidates to take Mobley’s roster spot.”

    I have to imagine the Houston thing is just there out of respect, but as long as it’s being floated it’s hard to imagine a worse idea for an already banged up team than replacing someone who’s retiring due to medical reasons with someone who already retired due to medical reasons several years ago.

  33. caleb

    Hard to imagine Mobley retiring – I guess we don’t know what the latest test really showed, but it’s not like this is news to him that he has a heart issues — he reportedly signed waivers for his last two teams, because of it.

    More likely it’s a bargaining position – I don’t want to play here, so let me out.

    A medical retirement would save $$, but not cap space – it wouldn’t come off the cap until 2010.

    I guess Dolan’s bank account would enjoy it, as would our draft position, but it won’t make a difference as far as signing a player – the problem isn’t money; it’s availability – no one out there. I forget who was on the list that someone circulated last week… Salim Stoudamire? Dan Dickau?

    Obviously, Nate’s return could help a lot. The main problem with this rotation is that Duhon is wearing down… 2-guard is less of a problem, at least while Q is still ambulatory.

    The Marbury situation is too radioactive by now — highlightshow the team f@!)(*’d it up. If he hadn’t been benched out of spite at the beginning of the season, it would be working out just fine right now.

    I’m sure Walsh is exploring trade options, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

  34. Italian Stallion

    From the Post:
    “Allan Houston and Patrick Ewing Jr. are the two likeliest candidates to take Mobley’s roster spot.”
    I have to imagine the Houston thing is just there out of respect, but as long as it’s being floated it’s hard to imagine a worse idea for an already banged up team than replacing someone who’s retiring due to medical reasons with someone who already retired due to medical reasons several years ago.

    ROTFLMAO

  35. o_boogie

    Marbury may maximize his value NOW by requiring a full buyout, but he doesn’t realize how much money he is losing down the road. The less he plays and the more belligerent he acts with the Knicks, the more likely he will never play another NBA game or maybe even another profssional basketball game. If he had an agent or attorney or respresentative helping him out, this point would have been brought to his attention and he would have already accepted a buyout or at least stayed humble enough to earn some minutes.

    This Marbury situation makes me want to puke.

  36. Z

    “The Marbury situation is too radioactive by now — highlightshow the team f@!)(*’d it up. If he hadn’t been benched out of spite at the beginning of the season, it would be working out just fine right now.”

    Caleb– is this an admission that you were wrong about “team chemistry” re: addition by subtraction?

    Also– I don’t see how a medical retirement is a bargaining stance. If he retires he’s still under contract with the Knicks. He can’t go and sign with the Celtics or Lakers. He simply collects his money, paid to him by the insurance company.

    Speaking of medical retirements, why hasn’t Jerome James taken one? He’d still be at home collecting his $$, he’ll never play again in the NBA either way, and he wouldn’t have to ride the stationary bike at the practice facility just to collect the paycheck. I thought you had to have been inactive for one year to qualify for the medical retirement, but if Mobley can do it after playing almost every game for the last ten years, obviously my assumption was wrong. (I had wondered why Isiah had played James 5 minutes last January, effectively resetting the clock for one whole year. It seemed like a typically idiotic Isiah move, but I guess it didn’t have the impact I thought it did).

    And finally, speaking of insured contracts, are insurance premiums factored into teams operating costs? Reporters talk of salary implications and luxury tax implications, but it seems like the premiums on these contracts must cost tens of millions each year alone. (And if this is so, Eddy Curry really could be a bargain for a cost cutting team because his premium, presumably, is $0).

    Just thinking out loud…

  37. caleb

    Caleb– is this an admission that you were wrong about “team chemistry” re: addition by subtraction?

    I assume you mean this: “The Marbury situation is too radioactive by now.”

    In a word: no.

    In many words: well, no. I don’t think the Knicks will get any better if they cut or buy out Marbury. It will just be a wasted opportunity; they could have had a contributing player, and potential trade chip. At this point, there is so much bad blood – it’s such an extreme situation – that you could argue the team would not improve with Marbury on the court. Not to say he would hurt them, or make them worse. But it might make so little difference, I’d shrug to see Dolan pocket a few million in buyout savings. And it would lower IS’ blood pressure, which has to be good for the neuro-reecovery.

    But the more I think about it — I take back what I said earlier. As radioactive as the situation is right now, the team would still be better off with Marbury vs. Anthony Roberson. Once they play a few games, the hard feelings would soften up. Not that it matters much in the long run, but it would raise Marbury’s value (can’t hurt, him or the Knicks), ease the load on Duhon & Robinson (a good thing, for their health, if nothing else) and make the Knicks a little better (not sure if that’s good or bad, if we’re angling for draft position).

    I don’t see how a medical retirement is a bargaining stance. If he retires he’s still under contract with the Knicks. He can’t go and sign with the Celtics or Lakers. He simply collects his money, paid to him by the insurance company.

    Yeah, you’re right… it’s probably either idle chitchat, or something scary really did come up in the medical exam.

  38. jon abbey

    “If he hadn’t been benched out of spite at the beginning of the season, it would be working out just fine right now. ”

    he wasn’t benched out of spite, why is this so hard for people to understand?

  39. Dan Panorama

    I don’t really see the value in raising Marbury’s value by plaing him. Is there anything in the entire league we’d rather want than a 20 million dollar expiring contract? Even if the offer was ‘Melo for Marbury straight up I’d hesitate before taking that one.

  40. Caleb

    Is there anything in the entire league we’d rather want than a 20 million dollar expiring contract?

    The main point of putting him on the court would be to help preserve Duhon & Robinson, and win us a couple of extra games while the rotation is so thin.

    A trade is very unlikely, but you never know… we could take on huge 2009-2010 contracts (like Kenny Thomas & Brad Miller, or Shaq), along with a 1st round pick.

    Another, even less likely type of trade, is the full-fledged salary dump (by the other team), involving a player we’d actually want for the long-term… e.g. Marbury for Melo. I really can’t think of another one with even a 1% chance of happening.

  41. Z-man

    “I think we definitely have to root against LeBron winning a ring in Cleveland. If his goal is to win championships, he’s done that in Cleveland, and still leaves… he looks like a total asshole. Part of the excuse for leaving is that Cleveland isn’t in as good a position to contend as NYK. If he’s won one in Cleveland and doesn’t win one quickly once he gets to NY his “brand” could be completely ruined and people wondering why he left the place he was winning rings. If you bring an NBA dynasty to even Kalamazoo your brand is going to be huge.”

    Do you see this as much different than other superstars that have won championships only to leave for greener pastures? Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, to name a few, plus many more in other sports? Their brands didn’t seem to get tarnished.

    I don’t agree

  42. Brian Cronin

    he wasn’t benched out of spite, why is this so hard for people to understand?

    He may have been benched for non-spiteful reasons, but how he was benched sure as heck came off as spiteful.

  43. Italian Stallion

    Caleb,

    You can’t be serious about the Marbury situation.

    Of course we could use the talents of an above average combo guard like Marbury, but the only thing he would contribute would be a few extra wins, making a bunch of players miserable, and slowing the development of Duhon, Robinson and whoever the 3rd guard becomes.

    You have to realize that much of the rest of the team (including D’Antoni) does not like him, doesn’t want to play with him, doesn’t want him in the locker room, doesn’t want him on team, and can’t wait until this saga is over.

    We could debate all day what the correct way to get him off the team was, but the Knicks are also a business. IMHO the idea was to maximize his potential trade value and/or reduce his cost to the Knicks “without” allowing him to disrupt the chemistry, growth, and development of a “NEW” team by playing.

    To do that, they chose to advertise his current level of ability in pre-season, but bench him when the season started. Maybe they should have simply taken the trade possibility off the table and bought him out this summer (or gone through the current process starting this summer), but if this team doen’t get past a cancerous personality like Marbury ASAP, we wasted our time by bringing a coach like D’Antoni to fots around for a year until the idiot is gone.

  44. Italian Stallion
    he wasn’t benched out of spite, why is this so hard for people to understand?

    He may have been benched for non-spiteful reasons, but how he was benched sure as heck came off as spiteful.

    Not telling him before the first game that he wasn’t going to play came off badly. That much was probably a mistake.

    But in the next conversation D’Antoni explained to Marbury that he wanted to go with Duhon, Robinson, and Crawford as his primary guards because he wanted to develop the chemistry between the players most likely to be part of the core group going forward. In his tight rotation, that left very few minutes for Marbury (like Mardy Collins minutes or even less). Supposedly they AGREED that that was not in anyone’s interests. That’s why Steph agreed to be on the bench in street clothes (also to avoid the crowd chanting for him).

    The real trouble did not start until D’Antoni asked him if he wanted to play after the trade and he said “no”.

  45. Caleb

    At this point, I don’t know that Marbs would help much – there’s a lot of bad blood. And it doesn’t matter in the long-term. But I don’t see how playing him will hurt the “development” of NBA veterans Duhon and Robinson – getting physically hurt because they’re playing 40 minutes a night with no backup would hurt their “development” more, IMO. He’s not taking minutes from Crawford and Collins now.

  46. Italian Stallion

    At this point, I don’t know that Marbs would help much – there’s a lot of bad blood. And it doesn’t matter in the long-term. But I don’t see how playing him will hurt the “development” of NBA veterans Duhon and Robinson – getting physically hurt because they’re playing 40 minutes a night with no backup would hurt their “development” more, IMO. He’s not taking minutes from Crawford and Collins now.

    That’s exactly why D’Antoni changed his tune and offered minutes to Steph after the trade (Crawford and Collins were gone and Mobley wasn’t playing). Then Robinson got hurt. Steph said “NO” twice and then all hell broke loose.

    Personally, I think D’Antoni made a small mistake by not telling Steph “before” game #1 what the plans were. But I really can’t see much else the Knicks did wrong. IMHO it was clear once they signed Duhon that Marbury was on his way out and Steph started yapping that he wouldn’t play behind him (being his usual delusionsal self and not even realizing the handwriting was on the wall). The big surprise was that they didn’t deal with this in the summer, but I guess Walsh was still hoping he could trade him.

  47. Z

    “the more I think about it — I take back what I said earlier. As radioactive as the situation is right now, the team would still be better off with Marbury…”

    Yeah– I actually agree with you at this point. The situation has gotten as bad as it has, so the damage has been done. A buyout over the summer would have avoided this fiasco, which would have been beneficial for everyone (I think). But now, since the situation is officially “radioactive” we may as well see it through and keep him at least until Dec. 15th when more trade scenarios become available (it’s only 10 more days…)

    “A trade is very unlikely, but you never know… we could take on huge 2009-2010 contracts (like Kenny Thomas & Brad Miller, or Shaq), along with a 1st round pick.”

    What about Stephon for A. Walker, Darko, and Critendon? It saves Memphis a few $ (which they like!) and gets us something somewhat useful (a center and a PG).

    or Stephon for Cardinal, Mike Miller, J. Collins, McCants, and a pick? It saves Minn. about $23 million and gives us some useful stuff. (Donnie would have to bite the bullet and waive a few guys, but it’s better than buying out Marbury at full price).

  48. Frank O.

    Two games under .500. Big deal.

    To act like Marbury would help now is like saying, ‘I want to hit myself in the head with a hammer because I have a headache.’
    Ridiculous.

  49. Caleb

    To act like Marbury would help now is like saying, ‘I want to hit myself in the head with a hammer because I have a headache.’

    Can anyone take a stab at explaining how the Knicks would be WORSE off with Marbury playing, than they are now with a 7-man rotation and Roberson & Tim Thomas getting minutes in the backcourt?

  50. Caleb

    Z,

    I like either of your suggested trades. Memphis might actually bite. Minny – I think they can do better for Mike Miller. (like Szerbiak & Cleveland’s pick)

  51. Ted Nelson

    I think Mobley has serious worries about his health, he saw like 5 heart specialists when (I assume) all he would have needed would have been one or two to take a medical retirement. And his contract doesn’t expire for 1.8 seasons, so I don’t think he’d be justified in feeling like nothing but an expiring contract. He didn’t want to leave the CLIPPERS (3-15 now) because he still “believed in” their team, so I’m sure part of him was thrilled to get the opportunity to play for D’Antoni (maybe the part that used to shoot every time he touched the ball) on a team that was over .500 at the time. One reason I could see him resenting the Knicks organization could be if they pressured him towards retirement, and he figured why play for a team that doesn’t want you. I could also see the McDyess, I don’t want to move rational.

    “I thought you had to have been inactive for one year to qualify for the medical retirement, but if Mobley can do it after playing almost every game for the last ten years, obviously my assumption was wrong.”

    There may be a rule that if a player hasn’t played in one year you can simple force his medical retirement, Darius Miles being an example. Another one year aspect is that the salary is cleared from the cap one year after the player gets cleared for the medical retirement (not sure if it’s in full seasons or calendar years).
    I suppose Jerome James may have some serious health problem(s), but the insurance company will not just pay a player to retire because he does not want to play anymore.

    “Like I said, the calculations for a fair buyout are very straight forward. It’s the present value of his current contract minus what he can be signed for elsewhere. If he wasn’t such an idiot, this could have been over several weeks ago and he’d already be playing for another team.”

    Like I said, what’s the present value of a contract with a few months left on it in a recession, with interest rates close to zero, and with deflationary pressure on the economy? What’s going to happen in the economy over the next 6 months? I don’t think Marbury’s thought this through, but if he were a genius he might also have a hard time agreeing on a buyout figure.

    Walsh appartently offered him $2-3 mill less than his contract, which seems more than reasonable to me… At this point I agree that Marbury is killing any value he had for next season. He’s playing a game of chicken, I don’t know if he has some logical reason or it’s just for the hell of it.

    “If he hadn’t been benched out of spite at the beginning of the season, it would be working out just fine right now. ”
    he wasn’t benched out of spite, why is this so hard for people to understand?

    That’s pretty hard to say, I could see it either way at this point.

  52. Ted Nelson

    “I think we definitely have to root against LeBron winning a ring in Cleveland. If his goal is to win championships, he’s done that in Cleveland, and still leaves… he looks like a total asshole. Part of the excuse for leaving is that Cleveland isn’t in as good a position to contend as NYK. If he’s won one in Cleveland and doesn’t win one quickly once he gets to NY his “brand” could be completely ruined and people wondering why he left the place he was winning rings. If you bring an NBA dynasty to even Kalamazoo your brand is going to be huge.”
    Do you see this as much different than other superstars that have won championships only to leave for greener pastures? Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, to name a few, plus many more in other sports? Their brands didn’t seem to get tarnished.
    I don’t agree

    I think LeBron’s image at this point is much bigger than those other players, not that Shaq ever won a championship before leaving Orlando. LeBron also seems to want to be loved by America, while part of Shaq’s charm is that he’s part superhero part villain. When Kareem and especially Wilt played the NBA was a backwater rec league compared to what it is now (I’m referring to the business aspect, not the basketball aspect).
    My opinion: if he leaves and wins in NY it will blow over and the average American will forget that the Cavs even exist, if he doesn’t win in NY he looks like a failed golddigger. And by win I mean championships because as Jon Abbey will tell you, America hates (figuratively) Chris Webber.

    but if this team doen’t get past a cancerous personality like Marbury ASAP, we wasted our time by bringing a coach like D’Antoni to fots around for a year until the idiot is gone.

    So why is he still around then? You’ve virtually admitted that the Knicks mishandled the situation in your own argument that they haven’t mishandled the situation…
    Every national news source has chimmed in to say that the Knicks have mishandled this situation, not just Mark Jackson. You’ve stated the same opinion about the Knicks’ rational about 50 times, and I still haven’t seen one person agree that there was a Walshtoni conspiracy to mislead Marbury. Everyone seems to agree that Walsh seemed unaware Marbury would not be playing. Maybe they’re secretly criminal masterminds and great actors, but Walshtoni seem like standup guys.

    At this point, I don’t know that Marbs would help much – there’s a lot of bad blood. And it doesn’t matter in the long-term. But I don’t see how playing him will hurt the “development” of NBA veterans Duhon and Robinson – getting physically hurt because they’re playing 40 minutes a night with no backup would hurt their “development” more, IMO. He’s not taking minutes from Crawford and Collins now.

    That’s exactly why D’Antoni changed his tune and offered minutes to Steph after the trade (Crawford and Collins were gone and Mobley wasn’t playing). Then Robinson got hurt. Steph said “NO” twice and then all hell broke loose.
    Personally, I think D’Antoni made a small mistake by not telling Steph “before” game #1 what the plans were. But I really can’t see much else the Knicks did wrong. IMHO it was clear once they signed Duhon that Marbury was on his way out and Steph started yapping that he wouldn’t play behind him (being his usual delusionsal self and not even realizing the handwriting was on the wall). The big surprise was that they didn’t deal with this in the summer, but I guess Walsh was still hoping he could trade him.

    Where to start… Marbury specifically said this offseason that he WOULD come off the bench.
    Steph never once said “No.” I’m convinced of that. Not only would he not put the majority of his $20 million in jeoprady by breaching his contract, but several other Knicks players apparently confirmed that there was no jersey for him to wear.

  53. Italian Stallion

    >Where to start… Marbury specifically said this offseason that he WOULD come off the bench.
    Steph never once said “No.” I’m convinced of that. Not only would he not put the majority of his $20 million in jeoprady by breaching his contract, but several other Knicks players apparently confirmed that there was no jersey for him to wear<

    Ted, You are wrong.

    At first he said he WOULD NOT come off the bench behind Duhon (and said he would come off the bench behind Rondo if traded to Boston). When pre-season started he came in as the good soldier and said he would accept any role.

  54. Italian Stallion
    To act like Marbury would help now is like saying, ‘I want to hit myself in the head with a hammer because I have a headache.’

    Can anyone take a stab at explaining how the Knicks would be WORSE off with Marbury playing, than they are now with a 7-man rotation and Roberson & Tim Thomas getting minutes in the backcourt?

    Caleb,

    You can either accept and believe what D’Antoni has been saying on this or not.

    You can either agree with his decision or not.

    The goal was to develop the chemistry between Duhon, Nate, and Crawford under the new system and give them most of the minutes because they would probably be back next year. That left very few minutes for Marbury because coach D plays so few players. The feeling was that Steph would not accept a Mardy Collins type role on the team.

    You can argue that Marbury is better than some or even all of those guys, but the organization was pretty much set on not resigning Marbury next year (at a minimum). So D’Antoni’s thinking on this was actually somewhat rational if you are looking out to 2009-2010.

    He was basically sacrificing a few wins this year to develop the chemistry, team oriented play, knowledge of the system etc.. between those more core guys. IMHO, he also does not like Steph for all the negative intangibles he brings to the locker room and because members of the team don’t like him. I’m sure that played a part in the decision also.

    Everything changed once the trade went down and Robinson got hurt.

    That’s why D’Antoni DID OFFER PLAYING TIME TO STEPH!!!!!

    It was Steph that said no TWICE.

    How can you ask if the Knicks would be better off or not if he was playing when it’s Steph that said NO to the offer twice?

    I don’t know what would have gone down if Steph played in those two games and then was benched again when the Knicks filled out the roster, but the coach has been very clear on the “WHY” he has been doing various things. It’s up to you to believe him or not, agree with him or not.

    Personally, I think every team in the NBA would be stupid to sign Steph despite his talent, but I probably have a different set ideas for how to win than most. IMHO, there is no way that Steph will ever contribute to any team winning a championship. (zero probability). If he ever wins a championship with another team, the team will win “despite” his presence not because of it.

  55. Ted Nelson

    >Where to start… Marbury specifically said this offseason that he WOULD come off the bench.
    Steph never once said “No.” I’m convinced of that. Not only would he not put the majority of his $20 million in jeoprady by breaching his contract, but several other Knicks players apparently confirmed that there was no jersey for him to wear<
    Ted, You are wrong.
    At first he said he WOULD NOT come off the bench behind Duhon (and said he would come off the bench behind Rondo if traded to Boston). When pre-season started he came in as the good soldier and said he would accept any role.

    Yeah, so he said he would come off the bench. I said he said he would come off the bench, and he did in fact say that. I miss the part where I’m wrong.

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