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Wednesday, December 17, 2014

Game Thread and Preview: Knicks @ Warriors

The New York Knicks (1-0) kick off the first road trip of the season against the Golden State Warriors (1-1).

We are early into the season, so there really isn’t a large enough sample size to warrant an in depth statistical analysis.  However, even the small sample size of one game for New York and two games for Golden State yields a few interesting items.

In New York’s only game, the team proved to be very efficient on offense.  According to Basketballreference.com, New York’s 113.1 offensive efficiency rating is good for 5th in the NBA.  New York’s eFG%–in one game–stands at an impressive 53.4.  Golden State has not enjoyed similar success on offense with an offensive efficiency rating of 100.9 (17th) and they have failed to reach an eFG% of 50 in the first two games.  Golden State has struggled on the other side of the ball as well with a defensive rating of 106.9 (22nd).  Generally, the team that can score points with the greatest efficiency is most likely to win the game.  So New York’s efficient offense should give them the advantage over Golden States inefficient defense.

What to watch for (1): Tyson Chandler on the glass

In Chandler’s first game as a Knick, he amassed twice as many blocks (6) as rebounds (3) in 37 minutes.  I noticed that he tipped out at 3 to 4 more and in doing so helped the team gain a possession.  It would be nice to see Chandler have a big rebounding night, especially against a Golden State team that is 26th in the NBA in rebounding.  Outside of his defensive ability, rebounding is Chandler’s best asset.  Hopefully a strong showing on the glass will help counter one of David Lee’s strengths (9.9 rebounds per 36).

What to watch for (2): New York’s backcourt

It is no secret that New York is thin in the backcourt.  Iman Shumpert is out with a knee injury; Mike Bibby’s back may limit his time if he plays at all.  Toney Douglas provided offense (19 points) but showed no ability to slow down Rajon Rondo (who is still blowing past Douglas as I type).  Landry Fields needs to recapture that efficiency and knack for being in the right place that endeared him to fans in the first half of last season.  New York will catch a break in that Stephen Curry probably won’t play due to an ankle injury.  Outside of Monta Ellis, the Golden State backcourt lacks experience and depth.

313 comments on “Game Thread and Preview: Knicks @ Warriors

  1. Thomas B. Post author

    Firsties (Happy now Spree?)

    One question I forgot to offer:
    Who do you think will get more minutes tonight, Jeremy Lin or Renaldo Balkman?

  2. Z

    Nice to have your game previews back, Thomas!

    I think Balkman HAS to play a lot tonight, right? Without Jeffries, and with Coach D already willing to play him, I look for Balkman to have a big impact tonight (and forever more!).

  3. nicos

    I think both Stat and Chandler will need to get on the boards as Carmelo will spend more time out by the 3 point line guarding Dorell Wright. I expect Wright will get at least 3 or 4 wide open threes as Melo’s attention to detail on D isn’t his strong suit. Of course Carmelo should absolutely abuse Wright on the other end. GS’s defense was actually really good against the Bulls with the guards super active sagging back into the post so TD and Fields should get some open looks which they’ll need to knock down.

  4. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Balkman will definitely play more minutes than Lin.

    Unless Bibby gets hurt, that is.

  5. cgreene

    Watching the slate on NBA TV particularly the Heat (down 15 at CHA) game you can see that no matter how much better the Heat and Bulls are from other teams in the conference the predictions of like 59 or 60 wins which I have heard from mainstream pundits are just totally unrealistic. The schedule is simply too tough for any type of dominant runs and if a few teams do get too far out ahead you can expect them to rest their best players towards the end of the year for the playoffs. I think the max wins for the best teams will be 50-52.

    Having said that it makes tonight’s type of game off 2 days rest with a chance to practice and prepare more of an important game for the Knicks. Balkman gets 25.

  6. Thomas B. Post author

    Spree8nyk8:
    We are 1-0 when the game thread gets firstied….just sayin…

    My Lord, You’re right. Maybe I should delete every other comment and let you write firsties. Or, I could use my admin powers to….

  7. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    From an article about the Nets’ strategy of keeping all their cap room for Howard and D- Will next year…

    If Howard goes elsewhere, so does Deron Williams, and, yes, general manager Billy King’s plan would come tumbling down. It’s a bold gamble, the highest risk-reward scenario in memory – the kind that unfolded with Orlando and the Chicago Bulls in the 2000 free-agent market for McGrady, Grant Hill and Tim Duncan.

    How in the world is it more risk-reward than what the Bulls and Magic did or what the Heat did just two seasons ago?

  8. Spree8nyk8

    Thomas B.: My Lord, You’re right.Maybe I should delete every other comment and let you write firsties.Or, I could use my admin powers to….

    LOL, make it so :P

  9. daJudge

    Thomas B, what was the Knicks defensive rating? Random: I’m trying hard to stay up tonight to watch the game tonight. I think this is a really good opportunity for Balkman to simply play his game, if he gets the minutes. Hustle, is not fortuitous or fleeting. Perhaps management has sent the message down to the coaching staff that the new raison d’être is hard-nosed ball, which Balkman brings, if you let him. Brian, I think you are right with risk/reward; however, is there a Plan B? At least Donnie had one and it was decent. Do the Nets? I really hope so, believe it or not. Even if you are a die hard Knicks fan, how could you not want a good squad in Brooklyn?

  10. Frank O.

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    From an article about the Nets’ strategy of keeping all their cap room for Howard and D- Will next year…

    How in the world is it more risk-reward than what the Bulls and Magic did or what the Heat did just two seasons ago?

    I think the risk is greater because the Nets will be starting out at a new arena before new fans. First impressions matter. If they nail those guys, Brooklyn will be rocking and with 1.2 million people living there that could become a huge deal with both those guys. Should they fail, they could tank, or take much longer to fill that place out.
    I think it would be great for the city to have two good basketball clubs. Brooklyn would become a great sports home again.

  11. Frank O.

    Decided to go with league pass mobile for my iPad.
    It’s not hd, but it can be seen anywhere.

    Btw, the grizz are gritty, while at the same time the Thunder make things look pretty easy

  12. jon abbey

    Frank O.:
    Man, Boston is getting smoked again.

    with Eric Gordon not playing, no less.

    that first game win is looking slightly less impressive right now, not that it matters really.

  13. llcoolbp

    looks like miami pulled it out on a d-wade jumper. Miami is going to win 50-55 games. Even when they are off they can put it together and eek out a victory. Lebron was impressive in this one. He is not going to let up this year. Scary.

  14. Frank O.

    jon abbey: him and Nash can come here next year on a package deal.

    Maybe I’m crazy, but I don’t think the Knicks should go the geriatric route. One thing when guys get that old, when they’re over the hill, it happens very suddenly.

  15. llcoolbp

    Fields with a nice runner. I’ve noticed Tony always picks up his dribble too early. the great point guards like nash, rondo, never do that. Sometims they almost have to over dribble, but they never give up on a play. Tony just doesn’t have point guard DNA.

  16. Frank O.

    Knicks need to bury this team early so they can rest their starters. That would be ideal with the Laks tomorrow.
    Wishful thinking I know

  17. Frank O.

    cgreene:
    If you get beat off the dribble by Landry like that you need to work on your man D

    Funny. He did that a lot eAly last year and people were besides themselves with pleasure. But now, it’s about poor defending. Lol

  18. Frank O.

    cgreene:
    I believe we have seen enough Jorts for one evening

    Lol
    I think you have to let the kid get used to the pace. The experience will pay off later, I think. Curious to see when Balkman gets in

  19. cgreene

    Frank O.:
    I mean Jorts is a rook who has two preseason games and one regular season game under his belt.

    I know. It just looks particularly awful. Also not his fault that he has to play with an 84 year old Mike Bibby, Bill Walker and Landry. That team plus me could have a great run at the Y.

  20. JK47

    Bibby looks to get rid of the ball to anyone who will take it from him as soon as he crosses the free throw line. It’s a pretty sad imitation of point guard play, I have to admit.

    On the plus side, Balkman has got to be in the rotation. He just D’ed up Monta Ellis. He plays better on-ball D than pretty much anyone on the roster.

  21. art vandelay

    Even the warriors announcer on the nba tv online LP feed just pondered, “Have you ever seen the Knicks play defense this well in the recent past?”

  22. Richmond County

    If TD is benched because Ish is running past him like he’s standing still, is the solution really to put in Mike Bibby?

  23. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I will give Bibby this much – he does not look good, but he looks better than Toney. The Knicks are lucky that Lee is playing like shit.

  24. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I love Balkman. I really do, but for crying out loud, let him know what shots he is not allowed to take. Then again, maybe that’s the problem? That he ignores coach directions? He looks great on defense and I like him the fast break, but pull up threes? For serious?

  25. JK47

    Okay, Balkman needs to stop shooting those heinous jumpers but his defense is the real deal. He is very good at moving his feet and staying between his man and the basket.

  26. art vandelay

    The offensive sets don’t even really allow for the PG to attempt to penetrate, beat his man off the dribble…or run a legit pick and roll….it seems to boil down to a handoff outside the 3-point line…I hope changes when B. Diddy is healthy.

  27. Tim Tennell

    I thought Mike D was supposed to be an offensive guru. Knicks offense looks just like ATL under Mike Woodson

  28. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Wait, Bynum’s suspension was reduced? Why? Also, the Knicks are also lucky that Ellis is also playing like shit.

  29. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Yeah, the Warriors’ two best players and the Knicks’ two best players are all playing terribly.

  30. Frank O.

    JK47:
    There it is in all it’s glory: David Lee’s “defense.”

    Amare literally stepped around him and lee hardly moved his feet. There are few more explosive people than amare, but still..

  31. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Hmmm…I dunno if I like the idea of reducing a suspension just because the season was shortened. Ah well, the Knicks still miss him, so what do I care?

  32. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Fields is feast or famine out there.

    Also, why the hell did they not hurry at the end of the half? What the heck?

  33. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Melo looks completely disinterested in playing basketball tonight.

    Highlighted by him practically walking the ball up court with 4.7 seconds left in the half.

  34. Frank O.

    cgreene:
    Melo looks completely disinterested in playing basketball tonight.

    Almost feels like the Knicks are intentionally trying to get the ball in the supporting cast’s hands. If Fields isn’t scoring, the Knicks are down some.

  35. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I guess, but conserving energy right before the half seems weird, as they’ll have the whole halftime to rest.

  36. llcoolbp

    this is an ugly game, but we all expected these kinds of games after the lockout, and with our point guard situation. Right now W’s and avoiding injury/burning out our stars is all that matters. This team needs to gel and peak by april. As long as they can win around 40 games and secure the 4-5 seed I’ll be happy. But really would probably need a 3 seed to go past the second round (as they would have to face the heat in the second round as a 4-5 seed).

  37. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Amar’e is playing like he did at the beginning of last season before Felton and he began to work together. Just lots of terrible shots. Besides the lollygagging, Melo’s shots don’t bother me so much – he’s just missing. That’ll typically even itself out.

  38. JK47

    Jerome Jordan actually drained the J at the end of the half… Too bad it didn’t count.

    Very preseason-ish feel in this one. Things are probably gonna be pretty ragged for a while. Hopefully NYK will come out with some more attitude in the second half.

  39. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I think because the guys who are making the majority of their shots, Fields and Walker, are doing poorly in other areas. So it puts a damper on their high percentages.

  40. cgreene

    I agree that the beginning of the season could be ragtag especially with shooting. Amare is playing hard and shooting badly. Melo was simply not playing hard. After 2 days rest (which only happens about 5 times this season) one would expect more energy from him… and I tend to be a Melo apologist. The guy wasn’t paying attention 3x when players passed him the ball it just hit him and then that last play.

  41. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    The Charlotte game…yuck, I hate when teams take bad-looking threes when they’re down 1 at the end of the game. Lucky Heat. The Celtics are 0-3. Hilariously awesome.

  42. Z

    What’s up with the ads on NBATV?! Grow 3 inches so women will notice you? Women love neatly groomed men? What kind of short, hairy, pathetic losers do they think follow this league? (it’s like they think we’re all a bunch of stat geeks :)

  43. llcoolbp

    poor Lin, he’s from cali, making his return to golden state and he can’t get any burn over the likes of mike bibby’s corpse and the inept TDDWTDD.

  44. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I agree that the beginning of the season could be ragtag especially with shooting. Amare is playing hard and shooting badly. Melo was simply not playing hard. After 2 days rest (which only happens about 5 times this season) one would expect more energy from him… and I tend to be a Melo apologist. The guy wasn’t paying attention 3x when players passed him the ball it just hit him and then that last play.

    Melo’s low energy is annoying, but I am almost more worried about Amar’e. I know we never have to worry about his energy, but he is sometimes too energetic when he starts forcing up bad shot after bad shot. But then again, they’re up six points, so this is a very very winnable game. Ellis and Lee were both just as bad in the first half.

  45. cgreene

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): Melo’s low energy is annoying, but I am almost more worried about Amar’e. I know we never have to worry about his energy, but he is sometimes too energetic when he starts forcing up bad shot after bad shot. But then again, they’re up six points, so this is a very very winnable game. Ellis and Lee were both just as bad in the first half.

    I agree Amare gets over-hyped. Rather that than indifference.

    Let’s go and take this 2nd half!

  46. JK47

    This team is gonna look a lot better when we’re running Baron Davis, Iman Shumpert, Kenyon Martin and Jared Jeffries out there instead of Mike Bibby, Steve Novak, Jorts Harrellson and Jerome Jordan, respectively.

  47. Gorky

    JK47:
    This team is gonna look a lot better when we’re running Baron Davis, Iman Shumpert, Kenyon Martin and Jared Jeffries out there instead of Mike Bibby, Steve Novak, Jorts Harrellson and Jerome Jordan, respectively.

    I really doubt that Davis will play any significant time for the Knicks. And the Martin signing is by no means guaranteed (though it would be nice).
    Agreed on the others

  48. jon abbey

    nice to see some signs of life from Fields, although a handful of terrible plays mixed in there too. the offense was really frustrating in the first half, no ball movement at all and Amare with force after force.

    and Balkman is definitely one of the six best players at this point, it’s a demerit against D’Antoni every game he doesn’t play him more right now.

  49. jon abbey

    Gorky: I really doubt that Davis will play any significant time for the Knicks.

    haha, remember this one in a month or two. Baron is our 4th best player or we go nowhere this year, so let’s hope you’re wrong (I’m very confident you are).

  50. SeeWhyDee77

    Big problem thus far: I know Amare is improving his perimeter game, but he is still getting the ball way too far out. The only players in that starting unit that should be handling the rock that far out is Melo and Douglas. Stat really needs to realize that his perimeter skills are only another weapon that makes him more dangerous- not the only weapon. Yea I kno he doesn’t have a wide open paint anymore with the addition of Chandler, but we are a much more dangerous offense when he doesn’t fall in love with outside jumpers. When he catches tha ball that far out, he still telegraphs his moves and he’s not good enough a ballhandler to compensate.

  51. Gorky

    jon abbey: haha, remember this one in a month or two. Baron is our 4th best player or we go nowhere this year, so let’s hope you’re wrong (I’m very confident you are).

    I really hope I’m wrong but I have no confidence in Baron’s health or desire to be in game shape at this point.

  52. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    STAT outhustling Lee for a rebound! Awesome. It was probably a foul, but I still love the effort.

  53. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    One area in which we figure to be deadly in is FT/FGA. Melo and Stat do get lots of whistles.

    One of the areas where having stars on your team definitely does help you. Just look at Lebron and Durant.

  54. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Rush is having a major impact just by being one of the only guys out there who is actually playing smart.

  55. Frank O.

    TD is just a liability.
    Can’t shoot and keeps blowing it on d. The follow dunk was over him and he didn’t react.

  56. llcoolbp

    i really hate this offense right now. Inept TD, melo lazily walking the ball up the court. It’s just deflating. Absolutely no energy. You need life and competence from your playmakers. And mike bibby’s corpse is not the answer.

  57. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Look, I get that Lin would likely suck, too, but I think it is worth giving him a look.

  58. art vandelay

    I know we were worried about horrid point guard play, but in my wildest dreams….errr nightmares, I couldn’t have imagined a worse-case scenario than what has unfolded in this game…TD and Bibby just look utterly useless on both sides of the floor….I would put in Lin at this point….nothing to lose!

  59. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Bibby is helping a little on defense as the Warriors are way too obsessed with attacking him – it is affecting their ball movement, as well.

  60. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Balkman is playing good D and Udoh is still brutalizing him. Impressive (the height is a big factor, but Udoh is also moving well).

    And some life from Bibby!!!

  61. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I was okay with that shot. He was close and had a good look.

    Rush is amazing tonight. By far the best player on the court.

  62. jon abbey

    Bibby has turned the offense around, it’s scary/sad that he is the closest thing to a real playmaker we have right now.

  63. cgreene

    TD’s biggest weakness besides court vision is that he actually is not a good ball handler. He picks up his dribble when pressured off the pick and does not dribble with his head up. This is not fixable at this point in his career IMO.

  64. Frank O.

    I’m up way past bed time and will go one on one with m eight year old tomorrow, so the Knicks better sort this out.

  65. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    It’s funny – Novak is doing nothing, really, but he seems to be getting minutes tonight just by not being actively stupid out there.

  66. Frank O.

    Anthony looks in better shape this year than I remember. I always felt he carried some extra fat. Not this year

  67. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Ellis’ brain “Wait, I can just take it right to the hoop and no one can stop me? I don’t have to take dumb 20-footers instead?”

  68. Frank O.

    What the hell was Melo doing there? Picks Fields then turns his back on the play and allows the defender a lay up…*sigh*

  69. llcoolbp

    i feel like a masochist watching this right now. Have to get up and work in the morning. Please send me to sleep happy. Just want to see some ball movement on offense. Their D has reverted to last years level.

  70. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Good call by Clyde – the Warriors are just running really simple plays and they’re befuddling the Knicks.

  71. art vandelay

    bold statement: offensively speaking only, this might be the worst performance I have seen under Mike D’antoni.

  72. JK47

    Without Chandler the defense completely falls apart. The Warriors just take it into the paint at will, every possession.

  73. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    When Balkman is your second best post defender, you’re in trouble. Heck, Walker is probably the third best post defender right now.

  74. Tyler Murray

    At least Amar’e is working hard on the defensive end…it looks like it, anyway.

    How often has MDA broken out the mini whiteboard and drawn up a play to get some shooters open? Off-ball screens? Corner threes?

    I’m rooting HARD for Fields, but even he doesn’t think he can make threes right now.

  75. llcoolbp

    ok, its 1 game. But this team really needs a point guard. No easy solution unless B diddy is healthy. It’s going to be slog the next few weeks.

  76. latke

    Knicks every time down the floor taking the least efficient shot in the game — the defended 20 footer. I think the knicks have looked good on offense maybe twice this entire game.

  77. art vandelay

    g’nite folks….total embarrassment….let’s root for at least ONE pick and roll tomorrow night!

  78. JK47

    Maybe D’Antoni should be axed. He’s a gimmick coach and we don’t have the personnel to execute his gimmick.

  79. cgreene

    Besides the fact that there is no offensive game plan whatsoever I’m sorry but this falls on Melo. 1 reb 1 assist outplayed thoroughly by Brandon Rush

  80. Jake S.

    Also, I know Chandler was in foul trouble tonight, but it would be great if our $14 million center could grab more than three rebounds.

  81. llcoolbp

    lakers are going to be tough tommorrow. No way kobe wants to drop to 1-3. Oh well. Thats why i was happy after the win on sunday. W’s are all that matter. doesn’t matter how we get them. Dantoni needs to go. He has Melo and Stat. It’s shameful how bad this offense looks. They are not going to morph into a solid defensive team overnight. But this offense is seriously bad. Dantoni has to take the blame.

  82. Jake S.

    Cannot believe D’Antoni is leaving his starters in right now. He knows they have three games in three days, right?

  83. jon abbey

    it’s crazy that a team with a healthy and should-be-rested Melo and Amare could have this bad of an offensive game, no matter who the other personnel are. everyone has bad shooting nights, but there’s no ball movement, terrible shot after terrible shot.

  84. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    That’s twice tonight that we had eerily similar statements by two posters at the same time.

    bold statement: offensively speaking only, this might be the worst performance I have seen under Mike D’antoni.

    and

    This is the worst I have ever seen a D’Antoni coached offense look.

    was the earlier one.

  85. Richmond County

    TD was 3-11 from the field and 0-5 from behind the arch to balance out his 2 assists in 28 minutes. Does Bibby start tomorrow?

  86. cgreene

    Let’s not overlook the fact that Landry despite a good 1st Q and scoring some points has been also been pretty bad. So our starting back court is simply not starter quality. Both those players are backups. That’s a pretty big problem. Shump seems like rotation talent. So everyone that has been saying that the season lies in the hands of Baron are pretty much correct.

  87. JK47

    Landry was not bad tonight– the four turnovers were unfortunate and his 3-point shooting has been off but if he plays like he played tonight he’s a rotation player. Not the NBA superstar that Dave Berri says he is but a decent rotation player nonetheless.

  88. nicos

    When your starting backcourt is completely incapable of creating shots for others you get nights like these. Melo’s jumper was off so GS just backed off him and let him shoot. There isn’t a guard who can run the P & R so Amar’e is left drifting around the perimeter. Fields made three horrible passes that led to fast break layups by GS and I’m not sure TD has made a good pass yet this year. At least Jordan looked like he might be a decent backup- Jorts looks completely overmatched.

  89. Richmond County

    Basketball is more about the rotation of any given 5 guys on the court than the 5 starters. Landry is a supporting character to the big guns and seems (albeit too) comfortable with this role so he fits in better as a starter with this roster. You saw TD force the issue too much tonight. He was a 6-man, spark off the bench player masquerading as a starter. His role has changed and his style of play hasn’t adapted. For this reason, I think a high energy athlete like Shump helps this team more off the bench when one or both of STAT or Melo is sitting, regardless of if he’s “better” than Field.

  90. xduckshoex

    One bad game and people are ready to run D’Antoni out of town? Ridiculous.

    The whole “gimmick coach” thing is nonsense, you don’t field teams as good as those Suns teams for four years on a gimmick. The pro game is simply too good for that to be possible.

  91. hoolahoop

    Recap
    Defense: I’ve never seen the lane so open. The Warriors went to the hoop with impunity. This is why Tyson Chandler was acquired. However, TC made stupid foul after stupid foul essentially benching himself.
    Once again, the Knicks were severely dominated on the boards.
    Offense:
    Melo shoots misses. Melo shoots misses. Melo shoots misses. Melo shoots misses.
    Amare shoots misses. Amare shoots misses. This leads to chucking disease. Eventually Lin gets in the game and hoists one up as soon as he gets the ball.

    Sure, I know Melo will win a lot of games for the Knicks, but this is a terrible offensive scheme. Stand around and watch Melo shoot the ball.
    As much as I try to like Melo, his style is unsuitable to ever win a championship in the NBA. That much raw talent can win high school and college championships but never an NBA ring.
    This wasn’t a tough loss. It was an ugly one.
    I hate to rain on any fanboys parade, but this is going to be a short, ugly season. The pieces don’t fit.

    The excuse you’ll hear for the next two weeks is “they’re not in sync yet”.

  92. bobneptune

    JK47:
    2 assists in 28 minutes for Toney D to go with his 3-11 shooting and crap defense.

    anybody still interested in seeing if “our guy” td can ‘grow’ into being an nba point guard? probably not, eh.

    it is really, really hard to play nba basketball without an orchestrator.

    can we all pray really hard tonight for the health of baron davis’ spine?

  93. JK47

    @278

    Normally I’d agree with you that “they’re not in sync” is a lame excuse but this is a pretty atypical NBA season. There is chaos and weird outlier results all over the league. I’m pretty sure Tyson Chandler is not gonna average 3 rebounds per game and I’m pretty sure NYK will be a very good team in terms of offensive rating when all is said and done. Let’s give them more than two preseason games and two regular season games before we throw in the towel.

  94. hoolahoop

    @280. I agree with you.
    However, I’ve seen this movie before. Melo doesn’t make his teammates better. He makes them stand around and watch him shoot. As good a scorer as Melo is, the collective is stronger than any individual.
    Let’s just hope things change.

  95. Ben R

    TD did not play well but this was not a guard problem, it was a scheme problem. Amare and Melo consistantly got the ball 20+ feet away from the hoop and went one on one. I didn’t even see chances for Bibby and Douglas to make a play. They crossed half court handed the ball off and ran away. Steve Nash would look bad if all he could do was hand off to Amare and Melo and watch them go one on one. I’m not saying our guards weren’t terrible but you at least have to give them the chance to succeed.

  96. Ben R

    hoolahoop: However, I’ve seen this movie before. Melo doesn’t make his teammates better. He makes them stand around and watch him shoot. As good a scorer as Melo is, the collective is stronger than any individual.

    This is the kind of game that makes you realize why Melo isn’t in the conversation with LeBron, Durant and Wade. He didn’t even care. He is hands down our best player and is supposed to be our facilitator and he gets 1 assist and 1 rebound. If we’re going to hand him the ball 20 feet from the rim with 18 seconds on the shot clock he needs to be looking to pass and running plays. Casually chucking up a 20 footer with a hand in your face is unacceptable.

    Amare’s not much better at least he tried but he must have heard all those voices about him not getting enough shots because he forced so many bad ones.

  97. JK47

    @281

    Actually, Melo seems to be perhaps the best passer on the team and certainly a pretty good passer out of the PnR for a small forward. I agree with @282 that our schemes look painfully bad– there’s no plan out there, no set plays and no coherent systems of screens, re-screens, etc. Occasionally we’ll run an awkward-looking PnR but the offense is really just perfunctory right now, a glorified pick-up game. Either that will improve or the coach will rightfully get canned.

  98. hoolahoop

    I see what you see.

    Ben R: This is the kind of game that makes you realize why Melo isn’t in the conversation with LeBron, Durant and Wade. He didn’t even care. He is hands down our best player and is supposed to be our facilitator and he gets 1 assist and 1 rebound. If we’re going to hand him the ball 20 feet from the rim with 18 seconds on the shot clock he needs to be looking to pass and running plays. Casually chucking up a 20 footer with a hand in your face is unacceptable.

    Amare’s not much better at least he tried but he must have heard all those voices about him not getting enough shots because he forced so many bad ones.

  99. Ben R

    I seriously wonder if this team could even properly function with a true PG. Let’s say Baron comes in and is amazing (I doubt it but let’s pretend) would Melo and Amare accept being nothing more than finishers. I think they would both still ball stop. It’s not a coincidence that once Melo was traded all of a sudden Lawson looked like a star and the Denver offense actually got better. This isn’t really a knock on Melo he is a certain kind of player and he is only effective (or at least the only willing to be effective) when he has the ball in his hands and the offense watches.

    Amare was a finisher in Pheonix but now with Melo, and honestly his whole time in NY, he doesn’t seem to be willing to just be a cog and get 10-15 shots a game as a finisher he wants to create and be the “man”. Which is not his strength.

  100. The Infamous Cdiggy

    JK47:
    @278

    Normally I’d agree with you that “they’re not in sync” is a lame excuse but this is a pretty atypical NBA season. There is chaos and weird outlier results all over the league. I’m pretty sure Tyson Chandler is not gonna average 3 rebounds per game and I’m pretty sure NYK will be a very good team in terms of offensive rating when all is said and done.Let’s give them more than two preseason games and two regular season games before we throw in the towel.

    Agreed, though the fouling on D needs to stop eventually.

    Passing was baaaaaaad tonight, with Douglas bypassing feeding Jordan in the paint (could’ve done so rather easily for a high percentage shot) to instead drive signaling how bad it was. And although it looked like Melo and Stat’s jumpers had serious jet lag, there was NO offensive presence in the paint, though the Warriors played Melo and Amare tough on D (go figure). In addition, Brandon Rush was on full swag – how many times is that going to happen?

    As for Ellis, his firt half and second half were night and day. And he’s had a death in the family (grandmother) so I can understand him not being 100% mentally. But that 4th quarter – drive and dish, drive n dish, drive n dish. And enough about Toney Douglas’ D… can we officially stop calling him a good defender? At least for now?

    Boy this team needs Baron. Hell, D’Antoni might need Baron too when all is said and done.

  101. nicos

    Ben R:
    TD did not play well but this was not a guard problem, it was a scheme problem.

    None of the guards are capable of initiating the offense so it’s tough to run traditional schemes- Fields and Douglas may be the worst passing backcourt in the league. And Melo has to hit the 17 footer if he’s going to be the point forward- they gave him that shot all night and he missed it all night- if he’d been hitting it it would have opened some other things up.

  102. Ben R

    nicos: None of the guards are capable of initiating the offense so it’s tough to run traditional schemes- Fields and Douglas may be the worst passing backcourt in the league.And Melo has to hit the 17 footer if he’s going to be the point forward- they gave him that shot all night and he missed it all night- if he’d been hitting it it would have opened some other things up.

    We ran the pnr with TD last year quite a lot. He averaged 4.5 assists per 36 as a combo guard last year. He is capable of passing the ball, he is not great at it but he is capable of more than just handing off the ball at the 3 point line every time down the court. We move more and and pass more at the pick up games I play. There is no excuse for this kind of stagnant offense. If nothing else just move the ball around the perimeter setting screens till something opens up. It’s better than iso offense.

  103. LMNYKFAN4LIFE

    this was the most disappointing game i have ever seen outside the first quarter defense and occasional flashes of offense from a select few like walker smh yes walker it was horrible. coach d does not know how to maximize his player hence why he always has a short bench. 5 players cannot win a game if the all play 48 minutes the knicks looked decent in the first half but then coach couldnt realize that the players were exhausted. any coach in the league knows you have to keep fresh legs on the court. you have two of the best scoring players in the league period and point blank. that means you do not need to put them all in at the same time. you build a lead then you slow up the game n play iso or pick n pop not seven seconds or less you look for open shots you maximize your players create matchup nightmares on defense not make it easier by going smaller smh. when kwame brown was in you put in your touch centers like jorts n chandler when the other centers are in you put in guys like jordan or if we had jeffries you put him in. thats why the two guard position was scoring so well. if your star player cant find the bottom of the bucket you rest him. you put your leader in amare not melo. if your starting pg is not running the show rite you rest him talk to him teach him while on the bench put in bibby give lin a chance at least you know he knows the other teams players and how to defend them. j jordan looked great you put him in for 15 seconds at the end of the half makes two good plays n gets a hard bucket in but it was waved off send him in have confidence in your bench. if your pg is not distributing rite us melo put in walker n fields at the same time n keep your star players in hell you can even leave fields in n have novak come on to knock down the open 3’s be inventive but use commen sense at the same time. its like you are a hard headed old man that will die by your word even though you have been taught that you are wrong smh. coach your drowning use the…

  104. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    I seriously wonder if this team could even properly function with a true PG. Let’s say Baron comes in and is amazing (I doubt it but let’s pretend) would Melo and Amare accept being nothing more than finishers. I think they would both still ball stop. It’s not a coincidence that once Melo was traded all of a sudden Lawson looked like a star and the Denver offense actually got better. This isn’t really a knock on Melo he is a certain kind of player and he is only effective (or at least the only willing to be effective) when he has the ball in his hands and the offense watches.

    Amare was a finisher in Pheonix but now with Melo, and honestly his whole time in NY, he doesn’t seem to be willing to just be a cog and get 10-15 shots a game as a finisher he wants to create and be the “man”. Which is not his strength.

    I certainly understand the concern, Ben, but come on. Look at Phoenix’s best year under D’Antoni…

    Amar’e averaged 16.7 .shots per game
    Marion averaged 15.9 shots per game
    Joe Johnson averaged 14.4 shots per game
    Quentin Richardson averaged 13.2 shots per game

    There’s no reason that Amar’e and Melo couldn’t both average around 17 shots a game in SSOL. Heck, 18 shots each might even be feasible.

    Obviously Amar’e is okay with being a “finisher.” There is definitely some question whether Melo would be willing to change his game, but he hasn’t had the opportunity yet to show one way or the other. So I don’t think it is fair to say that he couldn’t do it.

  105. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    The Celtics just lost by 19 to the Hornets, who are a lot worse than the Warriors. The Clippers just lost by 25 points to the Spurs (by the way, I couldn’t help but notice that the starting center for the Spurs in that game scored 20 points to go with 6 rebounds).

    It’s early in a weird season. It is way too soon to make any sweeping proclamations about this team. All you can really judge so far is that the Knicks had an awful game. Let’s see some more games before we say that they should fire the coach or before we judge Melo to be a faux star.

  106. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Bill Simmons has been pushing the whole Avon/Stringer angle with regards to Durant and Westbrook, and it sure seemed to be on display in tonight’s game when the pair actually shouted at each other during the game! That is crazy.

    Also, I do not subscribe to the “Memphs is better off without Gay” school of thought. However, I sure am on board with “Gay should not shoot so much when he has more efficient scorers on his team” school of thought.

  107. Spree8nyk8

    Honestly, I’m glad they lost this game. Because they didn’t show up. They played like ass, and they flat out did not deserve to win. If they would have pulled this game out I think that they could feel like that type of effort was ok. I truly hope that being embarrassed like that sinks in and upsets them. Maybe in the future they show up and play hard. We waited a long time for them to put together a team. And I made a lot of excuses for this team in the past. I won’t be making anymore excuses for them. Now it’s time to learn from mistakes. Hopefully they can learn.

  108. LMNYKFAN4LIFE

    Cronin i never said fire da coach or that melos the star im saying the coach needs to wake up n smell the coffee n stop being stubborn which he is known for, which baffles me. hes a coach know for thinking outside the box but wraps himself up pretty good in it with not using his bench when his players are obviously tired and not letting mike woodson run the players on the bench while he coaches the floor n calls the plays come on he needs to use his team all his team including his coaches to the best of his abilities n td not passing to j jordan in the end in garbage time he would have been benched n scolded or talked to n told why he was benched as far as melo yes hes a star but he is not the leader of this team amare is hes vocal gets in ur head when u do bone head plays hustles even when ur brownout not just give up n shoot when ur of and do nothing else thats not leadership that ballhogism period n point blank

  109. LMNYKFAN4LIFE

    i agree spree this was horrible n they should know it they were out hustle and out-coached by younger less talented and a rookie coach sorry knick fans but its the God honest truth and it ticks me off

  110. Spree8nyk8

    Ummm, more grammar is required…

    I’m not sure I can really hang this game on MDA. I mean these guys just didn’t give a crap. And I mean he can put them out there, make the subs, all that. But, he can’t make them care. They have to want that for themselves. He can’t make Chandler rebound and stop fouling people 20 ft from the ball. And he can’t make TD keep the opposing guard in front of him.

    And I am not in anyway saying he coached a good game. I just think that these guys did not have their heads in this game. Maybe they were playing the Warriors while thinking about the Lakers. Or maybe not. Whatever they were thinking about, it wasn’t the right thing.

  111. Spree8nyk8

    I mean it’s one game out of 66. And in the Boston game, Rivers made adjustments that changed the game and got Boston going. This game, there really wasn’t an adjustment. It was just one team not caring enough to win. I mean I really didn’t see anything that remotely had the appearance of effort. And like I said before THAT is on the players.

  112. Ben R

    Brian – I agree that on the right team Amare can learn to be a finisher again but Melo has never given control of the offense completely over to a PG and as long as Melo is taking 10+ iso shots a game Amare is going to want to as well.

    I don’t buy that our offensive problems are all TD’s fault and that a “good” PG like Davis will fix our offensive problems. These offensive problems aren’t new, we had the same issues last year and that was with Billups running the offense. Amare and Melo are talented enough that most of the time their shots will fall and we will be an effective offense but as long as we’re relying on isos and superhuman plays to score points we will have our share of rough nights and never be greater than the sum of our parts.

    I watched parts of both Denver games this year and some last year too and they move the ball and each other and create opportunities. They do have good PGs but if you watch it is Gallo and Rudy and Afflalo and even Harrington and Nene that initiate the offense not just Lawson and Miller. They constantly move the ball and attack the paint. Out of those attacks they kick out or pass to cutters to get open jumpshots and easy lay-ups. The key is no one holds or dribbles the ball unless they are attacking.

    It doesn’t take Steve Nash to run an effective offense. If we simply move the ball and attack the paint we will have open shots. This plodding offense that Melo practically forces us to run is not the solution.

  113. Spree8nyk8

    It’s one game, they didn’t show up. It’s pretty simple. Hopefully tonite is better. They aren’t really a team yet. Hopefully at some point they will be.

  114. BigBlueAL

    I totally agree with what D’Antoni said after the game, this game was lost in the 1st half. Knicks shouldve been up double digits easily at half-time if not close to 20 as he said. Believe it or not the Knicks really missed, wait for it, Jeffries tonight.

  115. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Brian – I agree that on the right team Amare can learn to be a finisher again but Melo has never given control of the offense completely over to a PG and as long as Melo is taking 10+ iso shots a game Amare is going to want to as well.

    Melo has never played in a point guard driven offense before. Andre Miller and Chauncey Billups were both 1s who were well geared toward Melo’s ISO offense. The only time he’s really played in a non-ISO offense was the Olympics, and he adjusted to a ball movement system quite well.

    By the way, not for nothing, but Denver did not improve offensively after the Melo deal. They got ever so slightly worse offensively. The key was that they gave up a “star” player and did not see any noticeable decrease in their offense. That was what you and I and others predicted would happen and it did, but it is worth noting that they did not get better offensively without Melo. Their marked improvement was on the defensive end, not the offensive end. Denver had the best offense in the NBA with an iso-based offense that centered around Melo, so it is clear that such an offense can be effective (they were third the year before and seventh the year before that).

  116. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    The Celtics just lost by 19 to the Hornets, who are a lot worse than the Warriors. The Clippers just lost by 25 points to the Spurs (by the way, I couldn’t help but notice that the starting center for the Spurs in that game scored 20 points to go with 6 rebounds).

    It’s early in a weird season. It is way too soon to make any sweeping proclamations about this team. All you can really judge so far is that the Knicks had an awful game. Let’s see some more games before we say that they should fire the coach or before we judge Melo to be a faux star.

    Is that the same starting Center who had 6 pts and 1 reb the prior game vs Memphis??

  117. BigBlueAL

    I did notice he has made 13 of 19 FGA so far this season :-)

    Apparently in the first game he only played 10 mins due to foul trouble and not being able to cover any of the Memphis big men (similar to last year’s playoffs I guess). No such similar problems with DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffin I guess lol

  118. ess-dog

    Eesh. Glad I missed this stinker. Looking at the box score and the thread, I was surprised we were tied after 3 quarters. I guess losing Chandler to foul trouble really killed any chance of winning.
    How does Mike start TD tomorrow? I hope we can make adjustments, but even though the offense was terrible, it’s nice to know we were in this game while Chandler was on the floor. If we can get a 2nd defensive big (Kmart? Jeffries??) and a real pg (Baron? Lin???) we should be able to finish ugly games like that.

  119. RastaPappa

    Like BenR said:

    “It doesn’t take Steve Nash to run an effective offense. If we simply move the ball and attack the paint we will have open shots. This plodding offense that Melo practically forces us to run is not the solution.”

    We have TC and Amere. Do we use these guys? Problem is that coach Mike don’t like to play ball to the big boys. That’s why we have Melo. He will run our offense entire season no matter how we play.

    Yesterday’s game was a good example that we don’t have a leader. When coach is lost the whole team is lost too. But we will win rings anyway, right?? ;o)

  120. hoolahoop

    Thank you for seeing the light. No more excuses!

    Spree8nyk8:
    Honestly, I’m glad they lost this game.Because they didn’t show up.They played like ass, and they flat out did not deserve to win.If they would have pulled this game out I think that they could feel like that type of effort was ok.I truly hope that being embarrassed like that sinks in and upsets them.Maybe in the future they show up and play hard.We waited a long time for them to put together a team.And I made a lot of excuses for this team in the past.I won’t be making anymore excuses for them.Now it’s time to learn from mistakes.Hopefully they can learn.

  121. hoolahoop

    I love your comments. You get it. Few people do (including the talking head “experts” on tv).
    Don’t be surprised if the Melo lovers come out to bash you.

    Ben R:
    Brian – I agree that on the right team Amare can learn to be a finisher again but Melo has never given control of the offense completely over to a PG and as long as Melo is taking 10+ iso shots a game Amare is going to want to as well.

    I don’t buy that our offensive problems are all TD’s fault and that a “good” PG like Davis will fix our offensive problems. These offensive problems aren’t new, we had the same issues last year and that was with Billups running the offense. Amare and Melo are talented enough that most of the time their shots will fall and we will be an effective offense but as long as we’re relying on isos and superhuman plays to score points we will have our share of rough nights and never be greater than the sum of our parts.

    I watched parts of both Denver games this year and some last year too and they move the ball and each other and create opportunities. They do have good PGs but if you watch it is Gallo and Rudy and Afflalo and even Harrington and Nene that initiate the offense not just Lawson and Miller. They constantly move the ball and attack the paint. Out of those attacks they kick out or pass to cutters to get open jumpshots and easy lay-ups. The key is no one holds or dribbles the ball unless they are attacking.

    It doesn’t take Steve Nash to run an effective offense. If we simply move the ball and attack the paint we will have open shots. This plodding offense that Melo practically forces us to run is not the solution.

  122. jon abbey

    it’s not just for this one game that people are ripping D’Antoni, just like it’s not just all of a sudden that people are ripping Fields. both of their issues stretch back well into last season.

    D’Antoni is allegedly a fantastic offensive coach (I recall that Simmons called him the best offensive coach of all time in his book, presumably that will be edited out in the next edition if it hasn’t been already), and he has two of the best offensive weapons in the game on his team, and seems incapable of figuring out how to best utilize them.

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