Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Friday, October 24, 2014

260 comments on “Game Thread 2012-13: Knicks vs. Pacers

  1. Juany8

    cgreene:
    iso-cope +5

    He’s playing solid defense too! I love how the Knicks keep pulling rotation players out of their asses. Watch, Jeroma Jordan will be back next year somehow….

  2. johnlocke

    Will we score over 85? Hopefully jR is hot and amare can do something positive

    ruruland:
    Great defensive mactch-up with Camby Chandler. Should hold them under 85

  3. Owen Post author

    And i have to say, whatever you think about Amare’s defense, those new goggles are dope….

  4. johnlocke

    He’s either too aggressive or not helping. He just has very little defensive awareness. He should be letter psycho t shoot jumpers but he’s up in his grill…aarrghh

    Owen:
    And i have to say, whatever you think about Amare’s defense, those new goggles are dope….

  5. ruruland

    johnlocke:
    He’s either too aggressive or not helping. He just has very little defensive awareness. He should be letter psycho t shoot jumpers but he’s up in his grill…aarrghh

    C’mon. He’s being taught ball pressure. That was a decent possession. Nothing in the paint.

  6. yellowboy90

    Why doesn’t Chandler assert himself on O like Camby? I mean Tyson has a better looking shot and is capable of driving. I know he hurt but I mean in general.

  7. d-mar

    johnlocke:
    He’s either too aggressive or not helping. He just has very little defensive awareness. He should be letter psycho t shoot jumpers but he’s up in his grill…aarrghh

    Yeah the officials were forced to blow the whistle because Amare so blatantly slammed into Hansbrough. Just not smart defense.

  8. Juany8

    The good news is Amar’e is trying really hard on defense. The bad news is he doesn’t seem to have a clue on that end. I think he might grow into a passable defender by the playoffs, he’s moving his feet pretty well and he is pretty big and long. Odom, Bynum, and Gasol never shared the court at the same time when the Lakers won their championships, I think it’s possible to sprinkle all of them in with Camby and Sheed to back everything up. Shump will hopefully be a nice addition to the backcourt

  9. ruruland

    johnlocke:
    Huh?

    I’ll take over aggressive defense over giving the offensive players the shot or the drive in basically every instance. This is what Woody is teaching.

  10. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Z-man: If you’re going to talk about racism, talk about real racism…the kind that results in harm, glass ceilings, shut doors, etc. The NBA has more black media personnel, coaches, GMs, and upper-level management and as much ownership as any major sport. I don’t hear any of these guys complaining about the dress code, and I would expect that they would consider some of these posts nothing more than patronizing white-speak.

    This is a ridiculous side-stepping of the point. No one’s claiming that racial inequality is more pressing in other places. The point is that by labeling Stern’s dress-code actions as “minor” racism, you say that it’s okay because it’s not making the players ride the back of the bus, etc. If a student came to your office and said that a bully called him a “pussy,” would you say, “That’s not harsh enough for me to pay attention to. Let me know when he calls you a ‘faggot'”? Of course you wouldn’t.

    [p.s. I'm done arguing about this; let the game thread continue]

  11. DRed

    johnlocke:
    Lmao amare not even looking at the ball

    That’s the thing-he tries, but his defensive IQ (for lack of a better phrase) is just terrible.

  12. johnlocke

    Yeh except psycho t wants to drive. You have to play players based on their abilities

    ruruland: I’ll take over aggressive defense over giving the offensive players the shot or the drive in basically every instance. This is what Woody is teaching.

  13. ruruland

    johnlocke:
    Yeh except psycho t wants to drive. You have to play players based on their abilities

    Right but you give him space and he still has that advantage with the way he uses his body.

    This is about changing his basic habits on defense. Giving a guy three feet is not a step in that direction.

  14. ruruland

    DRed: That’s the thing-he tries, but his defensive IQ (for lack of a better phrase) is just terrible.

    I think there’s a microscope on him right now that tends to exaggerate his negative tendencies relative to others.

  15. BigBlueAL

    Didnt Hansbrough set his career high in points in back-to-back games vs Amar’e and the Knicks in 2010-2011??

  16. DRed

    ruruland: I think there’s a microscope on him right now that tends to exaggerate his negative tendencies relative to others.

    Maybe, but he just doesn’t seem to be a good defender. You like those 5 man defensive numbers-I went and looked at his career and I could only find one season where his team allowed fewer points when Amar’e was on the floor. It’s certainly not the world’s most accurate stat, but that’s not a good trend.

  17. johnlocke

    Nice d there my amare. You play that defense on a guard in the corner you don’t play that d on Tyler. My issue is it’s just one note on D. Aggressive all the time defense for big men is not good defense.

    ruruland:
    Amare man defense creates turnover

  18. ruruland

    DRed: Maybe, but he just doesn’t seem to be a good defender.You like those 5 man defensive numbers-I went and looked at his career and I could only find one season where his team allowed fewer points when Amar’e was on the floor.It’s certainly not the world’s most accurate stat, but that’s not a good trend.

    Sample way too small. I like a lot of what I’m seeing. Again, his mistakes tend to be a lot more obvious than others, especially when we specifically focus on him.

  19. ruruland

    johnlocke:
    Nice d there my amare. You play that defense on a guard in the corner you don’t play that d on Tyler. My issue is it’s just one note on D. Aggressive all the time defense for big men is not good defense.

    Changing habits means erring really far to one side.

    Make the changes simply don’t ask him to over think.

  20. AnonymousODG

    I love Clyde endorsing Melo just cuttin loose. Why not? Get into a fight, still same suspension and at least you get Garnett to shut up and suspended too.

  21. cgreene

    Let’s be honest. The injury thing could kill this run. They need to play a 30-40 game stretch with their full complement of players. They need to establish an identity with the team they are taking to the playoffs. This whole working all these different guys in and out thing will not last. I hope they get Shump, Felton and Melo back and that’s the end of it. But if the rotation is in constant flux then it won’t work. Period.

  22. ruruland

    AnonymousODG:
    I love Clyde endorsing Melo just cuttin loose. Why not? Get into a fight, still same suspension and at least you get Garnett to shut up and suspended too.

    That was gorgeous Amare

  23. ruruland

    cgreene:
    Let’s be honest.The injury thing could kill this run.They need to play a 30-40 game stretch with their full complement of players.They need to establish an identity with the team they are taking to the playoffs.This whole working all these different guys in and out thing will not last.I hope they get Shump, Felton and Melo back and that’s the end of it.But if the rotation is in constant flux then it won’t work.Period.

    Well, what’s to complain about they’re coming?

  24. BigBlueAL

    Camby missed that putback dunk but it brought back great memories of him averaging it seemed like a few of those per game during the Pacers in the 1999 conference finals which was Camby’s coming out party.

  25. Owen Post author

    Teddy Pendergraph does not sound like a white guy in the NBA…..

    Hard to believe what Stephenson is doing this year, never thought he would make it, even with those tools….

  26. AnonymousODG

    I get the refs maybe are trying to regain control of the game, but what kind of phantom foul call was that and why call it on Thomas of all people?

  27. ruruland

    Owen:
    Woops, Teddy Pendergraph is not a white guy in the NBA….

    Played with Harden asu. Kind of a disappointment in nba

  28. johnlocke

    If you’re talking about Novak he almost always gives a foul when an opposing player drives hard at him, the player was just dumb and didn’t shoot. I liked some of amare’s post ups on O – that side is promising

    Nick C.:
    Bivalve single-handedly foils a 4 on 1 break with the Oakley non shooting foul! =o

  29. cgreene

    ruruland: Well, what’s to complain about they’re coming?

    Spend too much time managing minutes/injuries/absences and less time on strategy/chemistry/lineups then that is to the detriment of the long term plan. I know they are coming back but it seems like it’s always one thing or another. If that’s the case all year and they dont have a long healthy stretch to get confident and chemistry they will not advance far in the playoffs.

  30. ruruland

    cgreene: Spend too much time managing minutes/injuries/absences and less time on strategy/chemistry/lineups then that is to the detriment of the long term plan.I know they are coming back but it seems like it’s always one thing or another.If that’s the case all year and they dont have a long healthy stretch to get confident and chemistry they will not advance far in the playoffs.

    I understand your point but its too negative for me.

  31. Nick C.

    Yes it was Novak. The auto-correct gets the strangest notions if unchecked.

    johnlocke:
    If you’re talking about Novak he almost always gives a foul when an opposing player drives hard at him, the player was just dumb and didn’t shoot. I liked some of amare’s post ups on O – that side is promising

  32. johnlocke

    JR is kinda cold. We have no one flowing on O right now. I’d like to see a Kidd, JR , cope, amare, camby line up

  33. maxwell_3g

    if there was ever a game for amare to go for 25 in 25 minutes tis would be it. if he were an impact player

  34. maxwell_3g

    this is a strange game to digest. its like the old knicks/ heat games minus the marquee names. it will probably end like those games, and ultimately depend on who gets hot on ridiculous long range shots (envisioning tim hardaway shooting crossover pullup 3’s as i type this)

  35. jon abbey

    I don’t care at all about Miller doing the game, especially when it’s on MSG, but it’s insane that Haywoode Workman is one of the refs. at the very least, get Chris Childs on that crew also.

  36. BigBlueAL

    Brooklyn is still the best team in NY and both the Pacers and Bulls are better than the Knicks according to Barkley.

  37. johnlocke

    He is funny but his Knicks bias is annoying. He still thinks Brooklyn is better…

    BigBlueAL:
    For those not watching the TNT broadcast, Barkley ripping the Knicks again.

  38. johnlocke

    And we will most likely lose in the first round and we won’t finish in 2nd.

    BigBlueAL:
    Brooklyn is still the best team in NY and both the Pacers and Bulls are better than the Knicks according to Barkley.

  39. flossy

    Why would anyone* subject themselves to Miller and Barkley when the game is also on MSG?

    *watching in/near NYC

  40. BigBlueAL

    flossy:
    Why would anyone* subject themselves to Miller and Barkley when the game is also on MSG?

    *watching in/near NYC

    Trust me if I were living in NYC Id be watching MSG.

  41. JK47

    Barkley is a troll, plain and simple.

    “The Knicks don’t rebound”

    THEY’RE FIFTH IN THE NBA IN DRB%, YOU IDIOT.

  42. AnonymousODG

    I’ll not see Sir Charles disparaged by you ruffians.

    *e-slaps several posters with an e-glove*

    Besides, we are getting dominated here. Not much room to argue.

  43. DRed

    BigBlueAL:
    Curious, is TNT blacked out for you guys who can watch it on MSG or is it available??

    It’s on, and is running several seconds ahead of the MSG feed. I got the pleasure of watching that dunk twice.

  44. johnlocke

    Chandler doing nothing out there. We really should never have Camby, Chandler and Brewer on the court at the same time…Ever!

  45. AnonymousODG

    How in the world is Stat having his footing jostled when he’s the one setting the screen???????

  46. maxwell_3g

    “things are getting testy….at both ends”… are we finally going to man up and shed the label as a 3 point gunning team and win a slugout?

  47. BigBlueAL

    Not a good night for bad JR to show up but there is still plenty of time for good JR to make a cameo.

  48. cgreene

    If STAT’s midrange is gone then he’s done. Not saying it is but it’s been over a long time since he had it.

  49. johnlocke

    This is good JR he realizes his shot is off and is driving

    BigBlueAL:
    Not a good night for bad JR to show up but there is still plenty of time for good JR to make a cameo.

    BigBlueAL:
    Not a good night for bad JR to show up but there is still plenty of time for good JR to make a cameo.

  50. johnlocke

    This. And theyre from the side not the elbow. He really should focus on just posting up for now however

    DRed:
    It’s not even mid-range.He’s taking those shots from way too far out.

  51. Nick C.

    As crappy as they’ve looked its only a one point game. I guess Pacerblogger could have the same post. Bleech

  52. BigBlueAL

    Amar’e has looked real lively and active tonight but yeah his jumper looks way off and the Pacers are a tough matchup with all their size.

  53. AnonymousODG

    DRed:
    It’s not even mid-range.He’s taking those shots from way too far out.

    He’s not shooting short. His shots are missing wide to the left. Not an issue of range. The man had a reliable 3 ball 2 years ago even. While I don’t expect him to regain that kind of long range, his mid range shooting will make a come back.

  54. JR Sec 112

    This is how the Pacers look every night. Ridiculous Barkley thinks they are better than the Knicks. Add Granger and they are marginally better. Give us Melo and Felton and we would win a 7 game series in 5.

  55. BigBlueAL

    Like right there, Amare with a nice/quick move to go right by West to the rim but Hibbert with the help and the block.

  56. maxwell_3g

    ruruland: A lot to like

    Whatever man. i know that u r the resident amare supporter…..but hes hot garbage. his +/- last game was awful. he never developed a skill game, and now that his athleticism is gone, hes pathetic

  57. BigBlueAL

    JR Sec 112:
    This is how the Pacers look every night.Ridiculous Barkley thinks they are better than the Knicks.Add Granger and they are marginally better.Give us Melo and Felton and we would win a 7 game series in 5.

    Hollinger last season said if the Knicks were the 6th seed and were facing the Pacers that he wouldve picked the Knicks in 6. Think about that. The Knicks are much better this season and the Pacers are looking worse.

  58. johnlocke

    Harsh bro. And ruru is the resident optimist. And were up 2!

    maxwell_3g: Whatever man.i know that u r the resident amare supporter…..but hes hot garbage.his +/- last game was awful.he never developed a skill game, and now that his athleticism is gone, hes pathetic

  59. BigBlueAL

    How can Barkley (or anybody) be watching this game and honestly think the Pacers are better than the Knicks??

  60. maxwell_3g

    johnlocke:
    Harsh bro. And ruru is the resident optimist. And were up 2!

    lol. excuse me 2nite. i finished a trial (im a crim def lawyer) and had a couple of lagunitas. im a little looser than usual. but seriously, amare aint leading us to the promise land. just keeping it real

  61. BigBlueAL

    Only team in the East I fear besides the Heat are the Bulls with Rose and the Celtics just because. Ill gladly play the Nets or Pacers in the playoffs.

  62. JR Sec 112

    I hope whoever is giving out grades tonight looks past JR’s TS% and gives him the A he deserves. Its basically him and Tyson out there tonight, sometimes feels like 2 on 5.

  63. BigBlueAL

    maxwell_3g: lol.excuse me 2nite.i finished a trial (im a crim def lawyer) and had a couple of lagunitas.im a little looser than usual.but seriously, amare aint leading us to the promise land.just keeping it real

    Good thing is he doesnt have to lead them to the promise land, just help them a bit to get there.

  64. johnlocke

    You are excused…

    maxwell_3g: lol.excuse me 2nite.i finished a trial (im a crim def lawyer) and had a couple of lagunitas.im a little looser than usual.but seriously, amare aint leading us to the promise land.just keeping it real

  65. JR Sec 112

    Not to mention Paul George is a really good defensive player (and he’s guarding JR). He’s legit on both ends. By far the Pacers’ best player.

  66. AnonymousODG

    maxwell_3g: Whatever man.i know that u r the resident amare supporter…..but hes hot garbage.his +/- last game was awful.he never developed a skill game, and now that his athleticism is gone, hes pathetic

    I have to respectfully disagree here. His athleticism is not the iasue. It’s hia fonishing touch in the post and a rusty jump shot that’s consistently wide left. He keeps penetrating, posting and frankly blowing by his defenders. He’s backing his man deep into the paint with strength and his spin move is as fast and effective as it’s ever been. The problem: he’s not used to extra defenders offering help and needs to work on his pump fakes. They’re too obvious as they look right now. Plus, he’s not looking to pass it back out… at all.

    And that’s all natural I think. All the time he’s spent practicing is trying to get his quickness or strength back… and I doubt he’s been working on how to deal with shot blocking and extra help in the interior.

  67. cgreene

    I’ve been meaning to say this for a while but the thing that prevents Chandler from being really great is his bad hands on the catch.

  68. johnlocke

    No that was just an awful pass. Kidd was a turnover machine at the PG last year, he’s a much better 2

    Owen:
    double ugh

    This Paul George character is pretty good….

  69. maxwell_3g

    is everybody on ths board willing to admit that we will welcome back felton, regardless of what his true % is?????

  70. johnlocke

    He’ll be welcomed back for sure. I still would like him to not shoot 17 times a game

    maxwell_3g:
    is everybody on ths board willing to admit that we will welcome back felton, regardless of what his true % is?????

  71. maxwell_3g

    johnlocke:
    He’ll be welcomed back for sure. I still would like him to not shoot 17 times a game

    i dont care how much he shoots at this point. the lack of penetration is killing us

  72. johnlocke

    It is but we are also playing without our best player tonight

    maxwell_3g: i dont care how much he shoots at this point.the lack of penetration is killing us

  73. BigBlueAL

    Dont care about this game, lets just hope they take care of business at home this weekend before heading to London.

  74. DRed

    Stepping into the kitchen to finish prepping my dinner. I’ve been done for about 15 minutes and I’m not sure if we’ve scored.

  75. maxwell_3g

    johnlocke:
    It is but we are also playing without our best player tonight

    i agree. i think in reality, our 3 most indespensible players are melo, chandler, and felton. then JR. then Shump. then Kidd. its frustrating to me that we are paying max money that isnt even listed

  76. DRed

    I’m shocked west didn’t hit that last 3. Those two shot clock beating 3s at the start of the half are really what beat us. Those were ridiculous shots.

  77. ruruland

    maxwell_3g:
    good help amare. way to protect the rim

    C’mon man. Chandler’s been doing that all year. He did on the same play. I’ve kind of changed my mind — he’s just a bad rim protector. Really bad for his size and length. that’s a big problem. Maybe his block numbers really do say something about him. He doesn’t contest much of anything.

    Amar’e was better defensively than Chandler tonight.

  78. ruruland

    johnlocke:
    It is but we are also playing without our best player tonight

    Ronnie Brewer and Kurt Thomas played more. Melo being out should have been a huge advantage for NY.

  79. AnonymousODG

    Stat and Chandler do not play interior D well against a team with big men. Stat’s supposed to be playing the weakside but is consistently out of position and Chandler is preoccupied with covering the weakside and so his eyes aren’t on his man or the ballhandler.

    They had a chance if it weren’t for these issues being exploited to perfection in IND’s last three possessions. Woodson’s got his plate full with this conundrum.

  80. maxwell_3g

    ruruland: C’mon man. Chandler’s been doing that all year. He did on the same play. I’ve kind of changed my mind — he’s just a bad rim protector. Really bad for his size and length. that’s a big problem. Maybe his block numbers really do say something about him. He doesn’t contest much of anything.

    Amar’e was better defensively than Chandler tonight.

    ummmmmm. no. while i dont think tyson has been what he was last year, amare is a wreck defensively. aare i not better than anyone defensively until further notice. i would love to be wrong (as a long time knicks fan), but i just see this amare contract holding us back for years

  81. ruruland

    AnonymousODG:
    Stat and Chandler do not play interior D well against a team with big men. Stat’s supposed to be playing the weakside but is consistently out of position and Chandler is preoccupied with covering the weakside and so his eyes aren’t on his man or the ballhandler.

    They had a chance if it weren’t for these issues being exploited to perfection in IND’s last three possessions. Woodson’s got his plate full with this conundrum.

    No. Chandler sees these plays develop. He just doesn’t do anything. It’s effort or total lack of timing/instinct.

    His interior defense is atrocious.

    Amar’e was actually pretty good defensively tonight. Rebounded well, defended his man, had a block and caused three turnovers — maybe only had one glaring rotation error.

  82. jon abbey

    well, I had to skip ahead on my DVR, I couldn’t take a whole game of that. the Bulls are going to beat us again tomorrow too, hurry back Shump.

  83. ruruland

    maxwell_3g: ummmmmm.no.while i dont think tyson has been what he was last year, amare is a wreck defensively.aare i not better than anyone defensively until further notice.i would love to be wrong (as a long time knicks fan), but i just see this amare contract holding us back for years

    You’re raging right now.

  84. ruruland

    jon abbey:
    well, I had to skip ahead on my DVR, I couldn’t take a whole game of that. the Bulls are going to beat us again tomorrow too, hurry back Shump.

    Why do you say that?

  85. DRed

    ruruland: Ronnie Brewer and Kurt Thomas played more. Melo being out should have been a huge advantage for NY.

    Kurt Thomas was 2-5, had 3 rebounds, two blocks and took a couple charges. He had a solid game. Ronnie Brewer played 8 minutes. Let’s not get silly here.

  86. ruruland

    The Pacers are very solid team. George is close to a shut-down guy (though Melo would’ve handled him).

    Defense was very good much of the night. Felton and Melo are clearly the two most important playes on offense — night and day without both of them.

  87. ruruland

    DRed: Kurt Thomas was 2-5, had 3 rebounds, two blocks and took a couple charges.He had a solid game.Ronnie Brewer played 8 minutes.Let’s not get silly here.

    You’re right. They didn’t play enough. At least they stole a good 15-20 of minutes that would normally go to Melo.

  88. jon abbey

    ruruland: Why do you say that?

    because I don’t think this team is very good without Felton, Shumpert, Sheed, and probably Camby now. Noah and Deng can hold their own against Chandler and Melo, Amare still isn’t adding too much, and they’re better coached and better disciplined than us.

  89. jon abbey

    DRed: Kurt Thomas was 2-5, had 3 rebounds, two blocks and took a couple charges.He had a solid game.Ronnie Brewer played 8 minutes.Let’s not get silly here.

    (the joke is that WP48 says those guys are both having better years than Melo, that is ruru’s point)

  90. flossy

    Amar’e’s defense was hardly the problem, West and Hansborough were a combined 4-19 and he nearly equalled their combined rebound total in half the minutes. It was actually Chandler who really shit the bed defensively down the stretch, and Kidd was awful all game. JR did what he could but 10-29 is not going to win you many games.

  91. ruruland

    jon abbey: because I don’t think this team is very good without Felton, Shumpert, Sheed, and probably Camby now. Noah and Deng can hold their own against Chandler and Melo, Amare still isn’t adding too much, and they’re better coached and better disciplined than us.

    well see. tomorrow will be different than last time.

  92. maxwell_3g

    ruruland: No. Chandler sees these plays develop. He just doesn’t do anything. It’s effort or total lack of timing/instinct.

    His interior defense is atrocious.

    Amar’e was actually pretty good defensively tonight. Rebounded well,defended his man, had a block and caused three turnovers — maybe only had one glaring rotation error.

    so you are smarter then the rest of the basketball world? the def player of the year on def secretly sucks on def? amare is secretly great on defense? look man, im rooting for amare. but right now, he sucks. no team would trade for him, even if thy did no have to give up anything. that is a fact. im a NYK fan for life. Noting would make me happier than amare being a stud. but i dont see it happening.

  93. AnonymousODG

    ruruland: No. Chandler sees these plays develop. He just doesn’t do anything. It’s effort or total lack of timing/instinct.

    His interior defense is atrocious.

    Amar’e was actually pretty good defensively tonight. Rebounded well,defended his man, had a block and caused three turnovers — maybe only had one glaring rotation error.

    I know Chandler sees a lot of these plays develop as I’ve been frustrated for the last 2 dozen games when he consistently permits players to layup without contesting them. But that matador D primarily shows up when smaller men like PGs drive to the rim after exploiting an open lane, not on big men posting up.

    My post is about big men posting them up and the Knicks D.

    Stat can defend his guy on the perimeter quite well, I agree (although he sometimes leaves the baseline open), and on the perimeter, he’s surprisingly effective with disrupting player’s ballhandling (thus the turnovers). And he relishes blocks on smaller men (unlike Chandler for some weird reason) but when big men are posting up on them and Stat and Chandler are in/near the paint, the defense just crumbles completely.

    And it’s both their fault.

  94. ruruland

    AnonymousODG: I know Chandler sees a lot of these plays develop as I’ve been frustrated for the last 2 dozen games when he consistently permits players to layup without contesting them.But that matador D primarily shows up when smaller men like PGs drive to the rim after exploiting an open lane, not on big men posting up.

    My post is about big men posting them up and the Knicks D.

    Stat can defend his guy on the perimeter quite well, I agree (although he sometimes leaves the baseline open), and on the perimeter, he’s surprisingly effective with disruptingplayer’s ballhandling (thus the turnovers).And he relishes blocks on smaller men (unlike Chandler for some weird reason) but when big men are posting up on them and Stat and Chandler are in/near the paint, the defense just crumbles completely.

    And it’s both their fault.

    I have completely different expectations defensively for Chandler and Amar’e.

  95. jon abbey

    maxwell_3g: so you are smarter then the rest of the basketball world?the def player of the year on def secretly sucks on def? amare is secretly great on defense?look man, im rooting for amare.but right now, he sucks.no team would trade for him, even if thy did no have to give up anything.that is a fact.im a NYK fan for life.Noting would make me happier than amare being a stud.but i dont see it happening.

    Chandler is not having a good defensive year, some great stretches but overall not even close to a consistent force.

    Amare is getting paid an obscene amount, but if you can look past that, he can still be a very helpful role player this season.

  96. DRed

    jon abbey: (the joke is that WP48 says those guys are both having better years than Melo, that is ruru’s point)

    Yeah, but it really doesn’t. Kurt Thomas can’t play long minutes because he’s the oldest guy in the NBA, and WP has Brewer and Melo dead even. We all know Ronnie’s been playing like shit since the begining of the year.

  97. ruruland

    maxwell_3g: so you are smarter then the rest of the basketball world?the def player of the year on def secretly sucks on def? amare is secretly great on defense?look man, im rooting for amare.but right now, he sucks.no team would trade for him, even if thy did no have to give up anything.that is a fact.im a NYK fan for life.Noting would make me happier than amare being a stud.but i dont see it happening.

    Chandler doesn’t suck on defense. HE’s still very good on the ball and excellent going out and disrupting plays and contesting shots outside of the paint. As a rim protector he sucks.

    Amar’e isn’t nearly as bad on defense — since Woodson took over and since he came back — than people seem to believe.

    I still don’t think I would categorize Amar’e as a good defender for his position. I don’t think I would go as far to see he is bad, either. He’s somewhere between below average and average overall with a tendency to make really glaring mistakes.

  98. maxwell_3g

    jon abbey: because I don’t think this team is very good without Felton, Shumpert, Sheed, and probably Camby now. Noah and Deng can hold their own against Chandler and Melo, Amare still isn’t adding too much, and they’re better coached and better disciplined than us.

    I have NO problem with Woodson (I think he is our best coach since JVG) but he is no Thibs. We are in trouble against the Bulls with a short roster. Its amazing that we miss Sheed, but we really do

  99. JK47

    Well, I do hope the Knicks take a look at Kenyon Martin, because this team sorely needs a banger who will play some physical defense. The Camby/Thomas/Stat/Sheed combo is proving to be pretty old and frail. Right now the only one of those guys who is really healthy is Kurt Thomas.

  100. DRed

    Chandler blocked 3 shots, which isn’t bad for a guy who sucked at protecting the rim.

    anyhow, defense was not our problem tonight.

  101. ruruland

    DRed: Yeah, but it really doesn’t.Kurt Thomas can’t play long minutes because he’s the oldest guy in the NBA, and WP has Brewer and Melo dead even.We all know Ronnie’s been playing like shit since the begining of the year.

    But you do not refute the WP corollary that Brewer’s minutes have been at least as valuable as Melo’sm and that Thomas has been a better player than Melo (when he does play)??????

  102. maxwell_3g

    ruruland: Chandler doesn’t suck on defense. HE’s still very good on the ball and excellent going out and disrupting plays and contesting shots outside of the paint. As a rim protector he sucks.

    Amar’e isn’t nearly as bad on defense — since Woodson took over and since he came back — than people seem to believe.

    I still don’t think I would categorize Amar’e as a good defender for his position. I don’t think I would go as far to see he is bad, either. He’s somewhere between below average and average overall with a tendency to make really glaring mistakes.

    I respect ur opinion. I do not think that tyson is a great rim defender, but he does play great positional and communicative defense. amare, however, is far below average. he is slightly below average on the ball. he is OK coming for the weak side block. he is awful in any other team defense situations. i am rooting for him. i hope woody teaches him something. but contrary to his claims, i have a hard time believing that mike D specifically taught him zero defense when he was with the suns

  103. ruruland

    maxwell_3g: I respect ur opinion.I do not think that tyson is a great rim defender, but he does play great positional and communicative defense.amare, however, is far below average.he is slightly below average on the ball.he is OK coming for the weak side block.he is awful in any other team defense situations.i am rooting for him.i hope woody teaches him something.but contrary to his claims, i have a hard time believing that mike D specifically taught him zero defense when he was with the suns

    I think Amar’e has been a much improved defender since Woody took over, and that’s because of improved coaching.

  104. Owen Post author

    Ruru, you taking the opportunity to slag Chandler while you can? So that maybe people will stop pointing out who the best player on this team actually is?

    FWIW, the WOW guys have noted that they think Melo shouldn’t be credited as a pf entirely, which would bump his numbers up substantially.

    And we definitely missed him tonight.

    But I think there is something to be said for Melo defending and rebounding like a PF when he is playing there…..

  105. AnonymousODG

    DRed:
    Chandler blocked 3 shots, which isn’t bad for a guy who sucked at protecting the rim.

    anyhow, defense was not our problem tonight.

    Problem was we just played the best defense in the league without Melo. Copeland can have breakout games against Houston and Sacramento but he was totally outmatched here. Don’t know why Woodson expected anything there but glad he didn’t persist with running the offense through him.

    We needed crisper ball movement against this defense.

  106. ruruland

    Owen:
    Ruru, you taking the opportunity to slag Chandler while you can? So that maybe people will stop pointing out who the best player on this team actually is?

    FWIW, the WOW guys have noted that they think Melo shouldn’t be credited as a pf entirely, which would bump his numbers up substantially.

    And we definitely missed him tonight.

    But I think there is something to be said for Melo defending and rebounding like a PF when he is playing there…..

    This is a complex question, I mean that in the sense of it being a fallacy and in the way I would need to properly respond to it.

    I think Chandler is a great player in a lot of ways. His screen setting — something that is not tracked by bullshit WP — is really, really important. His finishing, offensive rebounding — huge. All of those things more than make up for his complete inability to create his own shot (which hurts every offense when you can’t or refuse to shoot a 10 foot jumper and cannot post-up smaller defenders)

    His defense in many areas is great. He is clearly the quarterback of the defense, can come out and guard pretty much any player in the league inside the 3pt line, and has great range contesting shots outside of the paint or generally harassing different kinds of offensive situations.

    He’s definitely a big positive on both ends of the floor, but his lack of rim protection, which I’ve talked about all year and has literally nothing to do with Melo, definitely hurts when that is one ofthe primary roles of a center that is not an offensive player.

  107. ruruland

    AnonymousODG:

    We needed crisper ball movement against this defense.

    We needed crisper ball movement against this defense=Melo pnr, Melo double team, Felton penetration.

  108. ruruland

    Owen:
    Ruru, you taking the opportunity to slag Chandler while you can? So that maybe people will stop pointing out who the best player on this team actually is?

    FWIW, the WOW guys have noted that they think Melo shouldn’t be credited as a pf entirely, which would bump his numbers up substantially.

    And we definitely missed him tonight.

    But I think there is something to be said for Melo defending and rebounding like a PF when he is playing there…..

    The whole notion that a player’s value would be substantially changed by a rather arbitrary label should force someone with intellectual curiosity to question the merit of such a metric.

    Alas…..

    As far as Melo at pf, I prefer him at SF. But it makes no difference offensively. His numbers are much better as a SF.

    Defensively, he is a very good post defender, but because he is outsized there he face-guards to block out, which means he’s not in position to rebound.

    His job as a power forward is not to rebound the ball like other power forwards, but to do the second best thing — ensure his match-up doesn’t get the rebound.

    His rebound numbers will surely go up when he plays small forward.

  109. Owen Post author

    Well, I don’t see a lack of rim protection. What I see is a premier NBA defender. I do think Chandler does hold back because of fouls sometimes. We have a porous defense and no frontcourt depth. He could foul out by halftime every game easily. But there aren’t many better defenders in the NBA right now than Chandler.

  110. ruruland

    Owen:
    Well, I don’t see a lack of rim protection. What I see is a premier NBA defender. I do think Chandler does hold back because of fouls sometimes. We have a porous defense and no frontcourt depth. He could foul out by halftime every game easily. But there aren’t many better defenders in the NBA right now than Chandler.

    sounds good.

  111. DRed

    The whole notion that a player’s value would be substantially changed by a rather arbitrary label should force someone with intellectual curiosity to question the merit of such a metric.

    Why? When a team plays Melo at power forward they’re foregoing the opportunity to play someone else at power forward. Generally that other player would be a better rebounder than Melo. So that team is giving up rebounds in exchange (hopefull) for better scoring. Why wouldn’t you consider that?

  112. ruruland

    DRed:
    The whole notion that a player’s value would be substantially changed by a rather arbitrary label should force someone with intellectual curiosity to question the merit of such a metric.

    Why?When a team plays Melo at power forward they’re foregoing the opportunity to play someone else at power forward.Generally that other player would be a better rebounder than Melo.So that team is giving up rebounds in exchange (hopefull) for better scoring.Why wouldn’t you consider that?

    Why does Melo get labeled a power forward when he and Brewer are both in the game?

  113. d-mar

    I think tonight was the game to start JR and maybe even Amare too. That starting lineup of Kidd, Camby, Chandler, Brewer and Copeland was just horrendous on offense, painful to watch. We needed to get off to a good start, and while Indy was bricking everything in sight, we were even worse. Not saying the starting lineup was the reason we lost, but I really can’t take Ronnie Brewer in any way, shape or form and Copeland was exposed as a nervous rookie.

  114. Owen Post author

    Ruru – Not really sure what’s arbitrary about the positions on a basketball court.

    But hey, I guess I just don’t understand the “position-less” NBA everyone is talking about.

    ruruland: The whole notion that a player’s value would be substantially changed by a rather arbitrary label should force someone with intellectual curiosity to question the merit of such a metric.

    Alas…..

    As far as Melo at pf, I prefer him at SF. But it makes no difference offensively. His numbers are much better as a SF.

    Defensively, he is a very good post defender, but because he is outsized there he face-guards to block out, which means he’s not in position to rebound.

    His job as a power forward is not to rebound the ball like other power forwards, but to do the second best thing — ensure his match-up doesn’t get the rebound.

    His rebound numbers will surely go up when he plays small forward.

  115. nicos

    AnonymousODG: Problem was we just played the best defense in the league without Melo.Copeland can have breakout games against Houston and Sacramento but he was totally outmatched here.Don’t know why Woodson expected anything there but glad he didn’t persist with running the offense through him.

    We needed crisper ball movement against this defense.

    Tough to generate ball movement when you can’t beat anyone off of the dribble and no one is drawing double teams. Hill, George, and Stephenson are so interchangeable defensively that screening really doesn’t help all the much either. I think you can attack them in the post- You can get Hibbert in foul trouble, West is strong but slow and whoever they have guarding the three is always going to be undersized (against Melo anyway). With Melo and a healthy Amar’e I think it’d be an easy 5 game series. If Amar’e’s like this all year, maybe it goes 6 or 7 but I think the Knicks still win.

  116. ruruland

    Owen:
    Ruru – Not really sure what’s arbitrary about the positions on a basketball court.

    But hey, I guess I just don’t understand the “position-less” NBA everyone is talking about.

    Certain statistical contributions are weighted by position, no? There is no adjusting for synergies on the court.
    In other words, a low usage point guard who rebounds very well like Kidd has extreme value according to WP, but he’s most effective with higher usage players around him.

    The usage players that are needed to play alongside Kidd do not have their value adjusted according to some of their contributions that allow Kidd to be effective, such as usage.

    A player that is necessary to making a a high rebound/low turnover/ low shot creation lineup work is going to get negatively affected by such a lineup synergy.

  117. maxwell_3g

    ruruland: sounds good.

    well, if we all agree, what is the problem with the knicks d??? tonight was not a problem, but we were playing a team that was trying to beat us 80-75. the bottom line is that to be a true contender, amare needs to score a lot more on offense than he gives up on defense (since he is only getting 20 mill per). im hoping, but we will see

    ruruland: sounds good.

  118. DRed

    ruruland: Why does Melo get labeled a power forward when he and Brewer are both in the game?

    Does he? I honestly don’t know. Go to wagesofwins.com and ask, and I bet they’ll answer you.

  119. ruruland

    DRed: Does he?I honestly don’t know.Go to wagesofwins.com and ask, and I bet they’ll answer you.

    I dare not disturb the inner circle of knowledge.

  120. nicos

    Owen:
    Ruru – Not really sure what’s arbitrary about the positions on a basketball court.

    But hey, I guess I just don’t understand the “position-less” NBA everyone is talking about.

    What position does Novak play? On offense he never drops below the three point line so do you grade him as a two? He generally guards a three or a four so how do you measure his rebounding? As a two, as a three, as a four? JR initiated the offense on the majority of possessions tonight- and has a lot since Felton went down- so has he been playing the one or the two? When Chandler and Camby are on the floor together who’s playing center? Roles really are fluid and when those positional adjustments carry so much weight (especially regarding rebounding) WoW should be at the very least be charting that stuff in a rudimentary fashion a la 82 games.

  121. ruruland

    nicos: What position does Novak play?On offense he never drops below the three point line so do you grade him as a two?He generally guards a three or a four so how do you measure his rebounding? As a two, as a three, as a four?JR initiated the offense on the majority of possessions tonight- and has a lot since Felton went down- so has he been playing the one or the two?When Chandler and Camby are on the floor together who’s playing center?Roles really are fluid and when those positional adjustments carry so much weight (especially regarding rebounding) WoW should be at the very least be charting that stuff in a rudimentary fashion a la 82 games.

    this… as always, Nicos.

  122. DRed

    nicos: What position does Novak play?On offense he never drops below the three point line so do you grade him as a two?He generally guards a three or a four so how do you measure his rebounding? As a two, as a three, as a four?JR initiated the offense on the majority of possessions tonight- and has a lot since Felton went down- so has he been playing the one or the two?When Chandler and Camby are on the floor together who’s playing center?Roles really are fluid and when those positional adjustments carry so much weight (especially regarding rebounding) WoW should be at the very least be charting that stuff in a rudimentary fashion a la 82 games.

    I think it’s like 2 or 3 guys, and I think they have other jobs. If there was a system out there that tracked players like that, they’d probably use it. It’s not a perfect model. Nobody claims it is.

    With Novak, I think he generally plays with two guards on the floor, he generally guards forwards, and he generally comes in for a forward, so I think it’s fair to judge him as a forward. We lose out on rebounding we Novak comes in, so like I said before when I was talking about Melo at the 4, I think it’s fair to take that into account. It seems logical to me.

  123. ruruland

    DRed: I think it’s like 2 or 3 guys, and I think they have other jobs.If there was a system out there that tracked players like that, they’d probably use it.It’s not a perfect model.Nobody claims it is.

    With Novak, I think he generally plays with two guards on the floor, he generally guards forwards, and he generally comes in for a forward, so I think it’s fair to judge him as a forward.We lose out on rebounding we Novak comes in, so like I said before when I was talking about Melo at the 4, I think it’s fair to take that into account.It seems logical to me.

    It’s pretty far from perfect.

  124. nicos

    DRed: I think it’s like 2 or 3 guys, and I think they have other jobs.If there was a system out there that tracked players like that, they’d probably use it.It’s not a perfect model.Nobody claims it is.

    With Novak, I think he generally plays with two guards on the floor, he generally guards forwards, and he generally comes in for a forward, so I think it’s fair to judge him as a forward.We lose out on rebounding we Novak comes in, so like I said before when I was talking about Melo at the 4, I think it’s fair to take that into account.It seems logical to me.

    The thing is it could be tracked and they know it but don’t acknowledge it- sports vu is out there- would it be a huge undertaking? Absolutely, but that’s one of my issues with WoW- why tinker around with the formula when there are glaring holes in the data you’re collecting?

  125. DRed

    nicos: The thing is it could be tracked and they know it but don’t acknowledge it- sports vu is out there- would it be a huge undertaking?Absolutely, but that’s one of my issues with WoW- why tinker around with the formula when there are glaring holes in the data you’re collecting?

    Do they not? Go ask them. They answer questions. If the holes in their model were as glaring as you think, it wouldn’t work as well as it does.

  126. ruruland

    DRed: Do they not?Go ask them. They answer questions.If the holes in their model were as glaring as you think, it wouldn’t work as well as it does.

    It works on a team level not individual level.

  127. ruruland

    All they’re doing is dressing up a team’s efficiency numbers and allotting each piece to a player, and then summing those results to show how close they’re correlated to wins

  128. DRed

    Why? When a team plays Melo at power forward they’re foregoing the opportunity to play someone else at power forward. Generally that other player would be a better rebounder than Melo. So that team is giving up rebounds in exchange (hopefull) for better scoring. Why wouldn’t you consider that?

    You ever going to answer this, or should I just go to bed?

  129. Brian Cronin

    I agree that it was dumb not to start JR, but the dude did play 40 minutes, so it was not like it would have had that much of an impact.

    As for Amar’e, it is understandable that they wouldn’t want to start him while they’re trying to limit his minutes.

  130. ruruland

    DRed:
    Why? When a team plays Melo at power forward they’re foregoing the opportunity to play someone else at power forward. Generally that other player would be a better rebounder than Melo. So that team is giving up rebounds in exchange (hopefull) for better scoring. Why wouldn’t you consider that?

    You ever going to answer this, or should I just go to bed?

    yes, true in a sense, what is your point?

  131. ruruland

    DRed:
    That’s why an a player’s value would be substantially changed by a rather arbitrary label.

    But it’s not a 1-1 substitution.

    What’s missing in the equation is what the other 3 players can/can’t do.

    It’s the skill-sets and synergies that matter, not the labels.

  132. ruruland

    Also, this is not accounted for and it’s pretty staggering.

    Check out the Knicks offensive efficiency without Melo at an individual level prior to tonight.

    Once sec……

  133. ruruland

    Wallace with Melo: 40% fg, 36% 3-point

    Wallace without Melo: 38%/30%

    Jason Kidd with Melo: 46%/ 46%

    Jason Kidd without Melo: 39%/41%

    Steve Novak with Melo: 47%/49%

    Steve Novak without Melo: 39%/42%

    J.R. Smith with Melo: 42%/35%

    J.R. Smith without Melo: 42%/34%

    Raymond Felton with Melo : 41%/37%

    Raymond Felton without Melo: 37%/38%

    Tyson Chandler with Melo: 70%

    without Melo: 67%

    Brewer with: 41/34

    without: 30/25

  134. DRed

    ruruland:
    Wallace with Melo: 40% fg, 36% 3-point

    Wallace without Melo: 38%/30%

    Jason Kidd with Melo: 46%/ 46%

    Jason Kidd without Melo: 39%/41%

    Steve Novak with Melo: 47%/49%

    Steve Novak without Melo: 39%/42%

    J.R. Smith with Melo: 42%/35%

    J.R. Smith without Melo: 42%/34%

    Raymond Felton with Melo : 41%/37%

    Raymond Felton without Melo: 37%/38%

    Tyson Chandler with Melo: 70%

    without Melo: 67%

    Brewer with: 41/34

    without: 30/25

    Small sample size

  135. ruruland

    DRed: Small sample size

    Also, how do you dismiss that, after Thomas and Camby’s game tonight, literally every player that has taken a shot with Melo on the floor shoots better when he’s on it.

    You’d have to be an idiot to scoff at that,especially if you’re to add up all the numbers for each player (it’s definitely a big enough sample then).

    The Knicks have played a lot of minutes with Melo on the bench this year, unfortunately.

  136. BigBlueAL

    Heat blow it late vs the Blazers, wow. Also read that JR had his let knee wrapped in ice after the game and was limping bad while Camby’s foot was in a soft boot and he was using crutches.

  137. DRed

    ruruland: Also, how do you dismiss that, after Thomas and Camby’s game tonight, literally every player that has taken a shot with Melo on the floor shoots better when he’s on it.

    You’d have to be an idiot to scoff at that,especially if you’re to add up all the numbers for each player (it’s definitely a big enough sample then).

    The Knicks have played a lot of minutes with Melo on the bench this year, unfortunately.

    Small smaple size. Like all of Stoudemire’s career when looking at his on floor/off floor defensive numbers.

  138. ruruland

    Check out the year Pelton’s analysis did catch up to — 2010-11.
    Of players with at least 250 minutes with Melo:

    Afflalo:
    with Melo: 51/48
    without Melo: 49/37

    Nene:

    with Melo: 65
    without Melo: 60

    Martin:
    with: 50/100

    without: 49/0

    Amar’e:

    with: 50
    without: 48

    Douglas:

    with: 45/40

    without: 40/41

    Fields:

    with: 47/38
    without: 40/38

    Last year was really the one season where there wasn’t this really strong effect.

  139. ruruland

    DRed: Small smaple size.Like all of Stoudemire’s career when looking at his on floor/off floor defensive numbers.

    Carmelo Anthony’s career is a small sample size.

    Now you’re pure trolling. I see what you’re doing.

  140. ruruland

    DRed: Small smaple size.Like all of Stoudemire’s career when looking at his on floor/off floor defensive numbers.

    The entire NBA season thus far is too small a sample size. Hope for the Ryan Anderson led Hornets!!!!!

  141. DRed

    ruruland: Carmelo Anthony’s career is a small sample size.

    Now you’re pure trolling. I see what you’re doing.

    I’m giving you the same fucking answer you gave me.

  142. DRed

    ruruland
    January 10, 2013 at 8:49 pm

    DRed: Maybe, but he just doesn’t seem to be a good defender.You like those 5 man defensive numbers-I went and looked at his career and I could only find one season where his team allowed fewer points when Amar’e was on the floor.It’s certainly not the world’s most accurate stat, but that’s not a good trend.

    Sample way too small.

  143. ruruland

    DRed:
    ruruland
    January 10, 2013 at 8:49 pm

    DRed: Maybe, but he just doesn’t seem to be a good defender.You like those 5 man defensive numbers-I went and looked at his career and I could only find one season where his team allowed fewer points when Amar’e was on the floor.It’s certainly not the world’s most accurate stat, but that’s not a good trend.

    Sample way too small.

    Oh my god.

    My point was not that Amar’e has always been an average defender, I’ve even implied as much in this very thread, it was that he’s playing defense better than he has in the past.

    His career defensive +/- numbers are poor. They can be better. They will be if he plays like he has under Woodson.

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