Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, December 18, 2014

Ferry Out Chris Grant in as GM in Cleveland

Danny Ferry has apparently resigned as GM in Cleveland in a mutual breakup with Chris Grant named as his replacement.

Wow.

Kelly Dwyer at Ball Don’t Lie has an… umm… interesting take on things, speculating that owner Dan Gilbert is going all Steinbrenner on Ferry. That may in fact be true, but I’m not so sure I buy Ferry as a sympathetic character in this saga. Even just a little scrutiny makes him look like a GM with a PF fettish and next to no eye for backcourt talent.

Take a look at Cleveland’s roster using Player Efficiency Rating (PER). PER doesn’t hold up well for every kind of analysis, but it’s not bad for a quick-and-dirty glance at talent distribution. A league average player has a PER of 15.

What jumps out at me about Ferry’s roster is that only Mo Williams is even league average (16.9) at guard. Anthony Parker was actually worse than Chris Duhon and Delonte West wasn’t much better. You might be able to get away with playing 4-on-5 in the regular season with LeBron, but not in the playoffs. The NBA playoffs are as different from the regular season as any sport, and to be that unspeakably bad at any one position seems like a fatal flaw for an alleged title contender. I could see why an owner would ask Ferry to fall on his sword.

They had a nice run. Ferry will get another gig I am sure. (New York? Shudder.) Life will go on.

45 comments on “Ferry Out Chris Grant in as GM in Cleveland

  1. daaarn

    So they have no coach, they have very little wiggle room in terms of being able to sign another marquee free agent, and now they get a “new” GM. Things seem pretty shakey in Cleveland. Any other team in this situation probably would’ve just decided to blow things up and try to rebuild, but with LeBron there’s to lose, it’s hard to say what’ll happen. Knowing there’ll be changes (whether positive or negative, that’s tbd), I don’t know if that’s going to convince LBJ to stay or if it’s going to push him out the door. Thoughts?

  2. BigBlueAL

    Ive actually read a few articles saying LeBron liked Ferry alot and this was strictly a decision made by Gilbert who apparently had a different view of the future for the Cavs than Ferry did for whatever that is worth.

  3. Droidz1979

    And the cards are finally falling to its proper place for my Knicks! Next to bolt out would be Lebron and we ought to be the main beneficiary.. Thanks for self-destructing Cleveland, you’re making it way easier for Lebron to go. At least you had a good run, guess it would be time to swap places and suck for the next eternity..

  4. David Crockett

    Life will go on?

    How’s that for cutting edge analysis? Damn, it really was Friday afternoon when I wrote this. Jeez.

  5. BigBlueAL

    So apparently Thibedou really wants the Bulls job and they like him alot too. Sorry but cant see LeBron excited to play for a rookie head coach who is known strictly for his defensive knowledge. LeBron just went through that with Mike Brown.

    So essentially the teams after LeBron are the Cavs with no head coach and a new, rookie GM; the Bulls who might be hiring a rookie head coach and have a GM who reportedly almost got into a physical fight with the previous head coach; the Nets who do not have a head coach and the Clippers who well are the Clippers and also dont have a head coach. I still do not consider the Heat a suitor for LeBron because no way he goes down there to be Wade’s right-hand man in Wade’s city.

    Im telling you the Knicks with Walsh and D’Antoni seem to me to be 100X more attractive a GM/Head Coach duo to play for than any other team with the salary cap space to sign LeBron.

  6. Z

    So Brown is out… and Ferry is out…

    But isn’t Delonte West the obvious person to boot out of Cleveland?

  7. BigBlueAL

    BTW June 5th is a historic day in Knicks history for 3 reasons:

    1. In 1980 I was born
    2. In 1994 Knicks defeat Pacers in Game 7 to advance to the Finals
    3. In 1999 LJ’s 4-pt play

  8. latke

    I just googled looking for a place to bet on LeBron’s destination, because I’d put big money right now on it being NY. THe stars are aligning too perfectly.

  9. d-mar

    BBA- stop posting your age, you’re making us Baby Boomers feel really old!

    I was at the LJ 4 pt. play game, still my #1 moment at MSG.

    The front page of the NY Times today has an article about the LeBron wooing, and an accompanying picture of Cleveland’s “we are the world” please stay LeBron video, with the highlights being “Otto Orf, Cleveland soccer legend and Colin Dussault, Cleveland Blues musician ” It really is kind of pathetic, and a little part of me started to feel sorry for that town if LeBron leaves. But a much bigger part of me feels like we’ve suffered big time for 10 + years so screw Cleveland, sucks to be you.

  10. Ted Nelson

    Since the Larry Hughes debacle I don’t think Ferry’s done a bad job.

    Ferry inherited LeBron, Z, Varajao, and Drew Gooden. Otherwise the Cavs had pretty much no assets: previous management blew an unspeakable number of lottery picks before and after LeBron and literally had nothing to show for it (Mihm, Diop, Wagner, Luke Jackson…) and lost Boozer due largely to their own incompetence and trying to pull one over on him. There were a bunch of has beens and never weres on the roster and Ferry only had late firsts and 2nds. His big shot to improve the team was the cap space he inherited, but he blew that on Larry Hughes. Otherwise he’s scrapped together some good talent. I think it’s fair to say that the Cavs had a good, deep supporting cast, but were missing one or two guys at the top of their rotation behind LeBron. Hughes was supposed to be that guy (as dumb as that was on Ferry’s part). They tried Shaq and Jamison this season, but neither one stepped it up in the playoffs.

    Once he screwed himself with Hughes… Ferry’s done a pretty good job of trying to make something out of nothing and keeping Cleveland at 50 wins every season he’s been there. He could have been more patient, but I guess they were trying to compete every year.

    You have the occasional Pau Gasol 10 cents on the dollar trade, but otherwise it’s not too easy to turn nothing into something great. Mo Williams he got for pretty much nothing (Damon Jones and Joe Smith). He got Daniel Gibson in the 2nd round. He drafted Shannon Brown, though he didn’t do anything in Cleveland. Got Delonte West as sort of a throw-in to the Hughes-Wallace deal. Hickson has good potential. Moon and Powe were excellent low-budg signings. He basically got Shaq’s carcus for a 2nd round pick. Got Jamison for a late first. Parker is over the hill, but he can shoot and they’re not paying him much. (Eyanga was a really weird first round pick, though, I would call that a really terrible decision… Budinger would have made a lot of sense for them there and could have competed with Parker for minutes.)

    Ferry didn’t do a great job by any means, but I think he did an average or above average job Hughes signing aside. Strategically, in hindsight, it may have made sense to keep cap space to try to make a run at other 2010 free agents rather than bringing in Jamison, Parker, Moon, Powe… and maybe Ferry could have even thought ahead and gotten Varajao and West to agree to deals ending this offseason… Hard to fault them for making a play when they knew they had a shot rather than positioning themselves in the hopes LeBron sticks around and brings a buddy to town, though.

  11. Z

    Happy Birthday BBA–

    I was at the LJ 4 point play game too, celebrating my own birthday. Best birthday present Jess Kersey ever gave me :)

  12. DS

    “In 1994 Knicks defeat Pacers in Game 7 to advance to the Finals.”

    Speaking of1994, how about Monty Williams getting the Hornets’ head coaching job?! Monty joins Phil and Doc as former Knick players/current head coaches. Maybe he’ll push to send CP3 or at least Collison to the Knicks a la McHale sending KG to Boston.

  13. DS

    “In 1994 Knicks defeat Pacers in Game 7 to advance to the Finals.”

    Speaking of1994, how about Monty Williams getting the Hornets’ head coaching job?! Monty joins Phil and Doc as former Knick players/current head coaches. Maybe he’ll push to send CP3 or at least Collison to the Knicks a la McHale sending KG to Boston.

  14. SeeWhyDee77

    OK…here’s my 2 cents..it’s been a while, sup yal! Anyway..back to my 2 pennies…
    One thing’s for sure, I am sick of all the LBJ talk in the media. Sure, he’s awesome and he is a franchise turner arounder, a game changer. But I am now starting to wonder how mentally tough dude is. I know his elbow was hurt, but it still seemed like that Delonte West rumor hurt him, which is really not an issue becuz it was his mom’s potential dirty laundry on the rumor mill. Either he was truly hurt, mentally beat down from the rumor, or jus tired of carrying the whole city of Cleveland on his back. Whatever the case, it has me worried that he might not have the stones to play in NY. I think he would be better served by NOT bein the go to guy. I do see him as a MJ type..Magic Johnson that is. And he, like Magic, can get buckets when he wants to, but he is better as a playmaker. See the difference between LBJ and say..Kobe, is Kobe’s sanctuary truly is the court. He still does what he needs to do on the court in spite of whatever distractions may be around him. LBJ’s still young and he may develop that, but i’m not completely sold. Well at least until I can figure out the right pieces to put around him. For instance, Mike D’s system needs shooters. So do u pair him with Joe Johnson or Jesus Shuttleworth? That plan sounds ok, but leaves u without a big. Do u s&t Lee for Bosh or a healthy Bynum? I’m not sold on either of those guys, plus I’m not sure LBJ can mesh with dominant post scorers..not til his jumper improves. So in my mind, LBJ poses more questions than answers. Or do u go with plan C, which sounds stupid, and aim to build a TEAM without LBJ? See, ‘Bron can’t do all the heavy lifting, I think these past few seasons have proven that. So what do u do if u were Walsh with all this money? I would LOVE to see LBJ as a Knick, but how do u build a winner around him? Cleveland has tried just about everything. On paper, adding Jamison looked great for ‘Bron. I guess my question is, which players do u add that WON’T stand around and witness like the rest of the Cavs did? There’s alotta other options out there besides LeBron. But one idea I haven’t heard much about is the Phil factor. Suppose Buss ultimately decides he doesn’t wanna pay Phil Jackson all that money and Phil leaves LA. If ur Walsh, do u immediately go after Phil to replace Mike D so u can have a championship coach lure players to NY? These are just some thoughts. Preferrably the 1st big name I would want in NY is CP3, who isn’t available yet, becuz I believe a dominant PG is more valuable if u can get one. They make the game so much easier. I know some people are gonna argue that LBJ makes the game easier, and he’s the PG by default in Cleveland and so on..i’m jus gonna say it didn’t work. And the eye test tells me that CP3 took a buncha guys who aren’t all that great and did the same thing LBJ did..except for the fact he’s playing in a tougher conference and couldn’t get to the finals. Sorry for my long, late night rant yal, but I haven’t visited the site in a while and my co workers are a lil too shallow to talk about this coming offseason..lol. Plus, one of them is a Lakers fan and the other likes the Wiz and is a lil 2 souped up about drafting John Wall…geez. I’m really not crazy, I jus sound that way..cheers

  15. BigBlueAL

    I am actually glad LeBron went through what he did with his play at the end of the Boston series. I am assuming he will learn from this and having all this criticism for the first time now will I assume/hope only make him better. Imagine if he wouldve signed with the Knicks and had a series like that in NY in his first season, he mightve committed suicide with all the crap he would have taken from the media.

    I can only assume (and hope if he signs with the Knicks) that what he went through this postseason will only make him better and more determined to win a championship and further prove he is clearly the best player in the NBA. Although I fully believe his elbow was really bothering him so it might just be a matter of being healthy cause when he got eliminated vs Boston in 08 and Orlando in 09 LeBron went down with his guns blazing and didnt get much criticism because he didnt deserve any those seasons.

  16. Brian Cronin

    See, ‘Bron can’t do all the heavy lifting, I think these past few seasons have proven that.

    The Cavs had back-to-back 60 win seasons with Anderson Varejao as the second-best player on the team. Lebron has shown he can do a lot of heavy lifting.

  17. Z-man

    There are dueling rumors on realgm.com of Lebron strongly leaning towards Bulls, or going to Heat to team up with Bosh and Wade, or staying in Cleveland. He didn’t mention Knicks in the King interview. Not looking good, we seem like a 4th on the list.

    If we miss out on Lebron, it is a double reaming since any other 2010 scenario would not put the Knicks in a position to get past Lebrons team, be it the Heat, Bulls or Cavs. I am very concerned that signing the lower shelf FA’s this year will doom us to a decade of early playoff exits at best. If we don’t get him, I wonder if it would be more prudent to not sign anyone except expirings and wait until 2011 for a shot at Carmelo and Chris Paul. I want no part of Joe Johnson or Dirk, and Amare w/o a stud pg is not going to get us anywhere.

  18. JK47

    The realgm.com rumors also suggest that Wade, Bosh and LBJ all take less than max money to play together for the Heat. I mean, really? Is that really going to happen? I’d have to stop watching the NBA because the Heat would win at least five straight titles.

  19. SeeWhyDee77

    “All” and “a lot” are 2 different things to me BC. But ur rite, he can do alot. My line of thinking with the statement I made was LBJ doin all the heavy lifting as he did in Cleveland (if he were 2 become a Knick of course) is not gonna cut it. Back to back 60 win seasons are nice, no doubt. But we, as Knick fans, are not satisfied with just that, rite? To me thas like giving a starving baby a pacifier lol. I will not be pacified. I was born in ’77, so naturally when I saw Ewing’s team or Spree’s team reach the finals, I was more than ecstatic becuz I had only HEARD of the other championship squads. Against Houston, I know I musta worn that #3 jersey 5 times in one week lol. Against San Antone, it was the white #8 jersey with the matchin and1 kicks. That was as close as I got, so naturally, i’m craving for that championship atmosphere in the Garden, and I don’t even live in NY. I just don’t want LeBron for the sake of havin him on the team only to have him repeat what he’s done in Cleveland, which is no small feat. I’m jus sayin successful regular seasons mean nothing to me at this point, though I understand that u hafta crawl b4 u walk..

  20. massive

    I don’t think Pat Riley’s “come to Miami for weather and Wade, but you’ll have to take less money” pitch will work. Especially when Chris Bosh and LeBron can say “Us two can win a championship together, without Wade, and we can get max deals in New York. Plus the fans in New York are better.” Wade, LeBron, and Bosh will be overkill. I’d bet against that happening every single time. Now if Miami had around 50 mil in cap space, then I’d be worried.

    @15,

    If LeBron does come to New York, he won’t have to do it by himself, because he’ll likely be playing with Bosh and whatever becomes of Eddy’s contract either this season or next.

  21. KNCIKS2010

    “I’d have to stop watching the NBA because the Heat would win at least five straight titles.”

    I honestly don’t think that the Heat would win five titles with a trio of bosh, wade, and Lebron. I know that sounds ridiculous, but hear me out.

    Let’s say those three go to Miami, now we’re left with some heavy free agent spending teams with nothing to show for it. No free agent would go to Chicago alone after seeing those three bolt for Miami, it would be hopeless. Chicago only has 20 mill in cap space, so they can be crossed out, so they’re not going to attract three of their own. Who would want to go to a team alone after that super trio signs together, it would be accepting defeat. Miami is crossed out because of their three acquisitions. Once again, after seeing three free agents bolt for the same city, not one “super” free agent is going to leave for LAC alone. That crosses LA out. Now you’re left with Jersey and New York. With these two options, I don’t see three “super” free agents leaving for Jersey because
    1) Who leaves for the second favorite team in an area.
    2) One super trio leaves for beautiful Miami, these three leave for…Newark?
    3) Across the river, you can play in the heaven of basketball.
    If three are going to bolt for Miami, three will bolt to New York.

    With this, we can sign Joe Johnson, Dirk/Amar’e, and maybe even Yao if he opts out. Especially with trade rumors surfacing of Chandler and Douglas for Parker in a three team trade, I could easily see the Knicks being championship contenders for the next three years. With the only weak spot really being at center, our lineup could look a little something like this.
    pg- Tony Parker
    sg- Joe Johnson
    sf-Gallo
    pf- Dirk/Amar’e
    c- Yao??/ Tyson Chandler??/Dlee??
    bench
    (with an eddy curry trade and that starting five, really wouldn’t be hard to acquire a bench)
    Steve Blake
    Bill Walker
    Maybe Shawn Livingston even
    2 second round dradt picks…hpefully big men

    While Miami would certainly be the powerhouse of the East, I sure as hell could see the Knicks getting an awesome team as well.

  22. SeeWhyDee77

    massive, u bring up Bosh..but what can he do that Lee isn’t giving us? I’ll give him blocks becuz he’s longer, but he and Lee bring about the same amount of intimidation in the paint. Lee passes better as well, so Bosh and Lee is a draw to me. Besides we need a center who can actually defend the post more than Bosh or Lee. If we could get one and hold on to Lee at the same time without compromising our wish list, that would be awesome. but we all know that’s near impossible. Being from the EwingOakleyMasonStarksHarper school of thought (I miss JVG lol), for defensive purposes i’d rather go hard after Wade. LBJ gets noticed defensively becuz of his “Tayshaun Prince” style of getting blocks. ‘Bron’s no slouch defensively, but he’s not as good a defender as people are making him to be. Meanwhile, Wade’s not to far off from Kobe defensively, meaning Wade has a better chance at taking his man outta the game than LBJ. Thas jus another thought to ponder, as I am thinking “whole team” as opposed to several members of the media thinking 2 stars and some candles. As for Tony Parker..I like him. But not as the starting PG for the Knicks. I’d rather see the platoon of Sergio and Toney grow rather than watch Parker mostly score, we can get points elsewhere. Parker might be awesome in NY, who knows. But he’s costly and more scorer than a floor general. I haven’t read anything about a 3 team deal to get him, but I would luv to hear the details if anybody has them b4 I put the stamp on the whole “Parker not right for Knicks” idea. As for the current roster, I used to believe Rooster has a better future at the 4 than he does playin the wing, but I’m not so sure now-especially with Chandler’s surgeries and lack of shooting touch. Chandler used to be a better defender, but Rooster has definitely passed him in that department. That said, I say Walsh should trade him now while he can still get something 4 him.

  23. KNCIKS2010

    ” I’d rather see the platoon of Sergio and Tony grow …”
    I sure as hell wouldn’t. Tony is a really weird combination. Good skills, wrong body type. He’s a small 2, and a shoot-first one. He’ll have a great playing career off the bench most likely, but he is definitely not a starting pg on a championship team. As for Sergio, every game I watched him play this year on thought kept going through my mind.
    “Can’t anybody in the D-league do what this guy is doing?”
    On our summer league roster last year, we had a game named walnut or chestnut, i forget which that didn’t make the team but could easily do what Sergio does night in and night out. Anyway, he’s leaving for Spain.

  24. massive

    @23,

    Well, Bosh is a year younger and a better scorer. But Lee is the better passer and rebounder, they both give you about the same on defense. I do prefer Lee over Bosh, especially at their respective prices, but if signing Bosh means bringing LeBron or Wade, then I’d take Bosh.

  25. SeeWhyDee77

    Point taken massive..and a good 1.
    @24..u hafta understand that Sergio was a midseason addition. I am in no way anointing him as tha chosen PG, I jus know he’s alot better than what he’s shown us in a half season. So what i’m tryin to say is give him a full offseason to learn Mike D’s system properly and if he still doesn’t play up to his potential then let him go. He’s only what, 24? What better options are there for us at the point that are feasible? Arenas(who I think is a good guard, but not a lead guard in Mike D’s system)? No thanks. Parker? Maybe, but I still think he is out of our price range and is too much of a scorer to run the system. Maybe he is a great floor general a la Nash or CP3..maybe his role for Pop was to score..I don’t know. But think about it, do we REALLY wanna give up what it would take to get him if we don’t have the other pieces in place? So I still say pass on him, unless it’s a good deal..like a package built around Curry and Chandler that would net us a pick as well. Maybe thas 2 much to ask and the Spurs r 2 smart to give up Parker for a package that isn’t truly mutually beneficial-no matter how much faith they have in Hill. One thing i’d like to see is Walsh trade up to get Alabi from FSU. He’s raw offensively, but he brings the defensive presence we need and is not a slow plodding big. Besides, Ainge owes us for fleecing us for Nate. Walker was the only productive player in that trade for us, and he’s a 2nd string swingman at best. I will say this about Parker, if we can add him as well this summer and put shooters at the 2 and 4 around him and LBJ with a center who won’t slow us down..that could work..maybe. I’m jus tryin to look past the stats and see which combination of players would work. Remember, Steph’s career #’s are 20ppg and 8apg, but it didn’t make him right for Mike D’s system..

  26. SJK

    I think there is no way that LeBron and DWade will go to the same team. They both fill the same roles as go to guys who carry the team and score a lot of points. Yes, they would be good together, but I think LeBron wants to win a championship by himself. Were he to go to Miami, with out without Bosh, they would always go down as championships won by LeBron James AND Dwayne Wade. Yes, he needs a side-kick, but he doesn’t need another one of the top players in the league.

    As far as the lack of rumors / scenarios in which LeBron goes to the knicks, I don’t think that matters. No body knows what LeBron is going to do, and he’s not going to reveal it because he wants to get as much publicity out of this as possible. If LeBron wants to go down as one of the best players of all time, he should come to New York with Chris Bosh. It’s the basketball mecca of the world and picture Bosh grabbing a rebound and outletting it to Lebron who then dribbles up the court either passing to Gallo for a three, dunking it, or feeding Bosh for a dunk. LeBron to NYK!

  27. massive

    I would love to see Bosh and LeBron in a Knicks jersey, and trading for Tony Parker isn’t a real risk, because his contract expires after next season.

    The only thing im worried about now, is a center for Mike D’Antoni. He needs a long, athletic guy who will play defense, run the floor, block shots, and play around 30-40 minutes a night. Athletic doesn’t even matter really, he just can’t clog up the lane. If we can get a healthy Greg Oden, I would go crazy. Maybe we can trade for Wilson Chandler and Eddy Curry’s expiring for Rudy Fernandez, Andre Miller, and Greg Oden. Doubt Portland is dumb enough to do this, it makes them worse. Chandler for Rudy Fernandez would work out, though. Also, it cuts into our cap space, and only fills our needs. Add Joe Johnson, and that’s a hell of a team to put around Bosh, at least in a perfect world.

    PG: Miller
    SG: Johnson
    SF: Gallo
    PF: Bosh
    C: Oden (healthy, he’ll be the 2nd best C in the league)

  28. Ted Nelson

    ” wait until 2011 for a shot at Carmelo and Chris Paul.”

    Paul is not a free agent in 2011, though I guess there’s a chance he’s made available to trade. There are some pretty serious concerns about no cartlidge in his knees, though. I mean I’d take him in a heartbeat if a good trade arose, but I wouldn’t necessarily base all my plans on the off chance of getting him in a year or more likely two…

    @22

    So Joe Johnson and Tony Parker are going to trump LeBron/Wade/Bosh… Who knows what will happen, but it the Heat sign those three I assume they’ll win multiple titles.
    Plus your line-up is completely unrealistic cap wise. You have the Knicks adding 3 max guys plus Parker’s salary plus trading away Curry… They can sign 2 max guys and then use Curry’s salary for another guy…

    @23

    Tony Parker is a FAR better floor general than Sergio or Toney… His ast% in 08-09 was 40… Nash’s was 42.4 that season. I’m not saying rush out and get him, but to say the reason you don’t want him is because of those two??? It’s not 1/2 a season with Sergio… he’s been in the league 4 seasons and has never stuck in a rotation… He still has potential, but to act like he’s a star in the making seems very optimistic. He played behind Udrih AND Duhon last season…

    Tony Parker has one year left on his deal… SA is going to give the Knicks a pick for the privilege of watching fat Eddy on their bench and WC as a back-up to RJ????????????????????????????? Only way Spurs trade Parker is for assets or cap relief.

    @27

    “Yes, he needs a side-kick, but he doesn’t need another one of the top players in the league.”

    Yes, he does. That’s exactly what he’s been missing in Cleveland. Teams do not win titles without 2 All-NBA caliber players… even Detroit (who everyone cites as a glitch) had Billups (3 All-NBA teams) and Wallace (5 All-NBA teams). The Celts have KG, Pierce, Allen, AND Rondo. Lakers have Kobe, Bynum, AND Gasol.
    As far as LeBron/Wade… MJ and Pippen made is work.

    @28 “Doubt Portland is dumb enough to do this, it makes them worse.”

    Yeah, they’re not. I would also like to trade Curry for Andrew Bynum and Gasol and Kobe… but it’s just not going to happen.

  29. SJK

    @29
    I agree that he needs another all-NBA player to win, but Dwayne Wade is different then Pippen. He’s arguably the second best player in the league (maybe third behind Kobe). I think it’s the pairing of the top 2 players in the league that would cause a problem. What do I know, but it seems that LeBron has a huge ego

  30. supernova

    I cannot state whether Lebron’s ego would prevent him from teaming with Wade, but ego aside I could certainly live with a Lebron – Wade duo here in New York.

    I think it might not be the smoothest of pairings, but overall I doubt you could go wrong with maybe the two best players in the league on your team. That risk I am certainly willing to take. With that much fire power in your back court, I think you are almost a guaranteed 60 win team every year, with a much better than average chance to win the whole thing. Yes, the Knicks would need to bolster their interior defense, but finding defense minded role players to surround a Lebron-Wade tandem is infinitely easier than doing it the other way around.

    Maybe a Lebron-Bosh pairing (ego’s aside) might be more cohesive, but I have a hard time believing you couldn’t win (and win alot) by having both Lebron and Wade on your team. I’ll take anything close to that after having suffered all these many years.

  31. supernova

    Another advantage to two superstars like Lebron and Wade on the Knicks is that would really open things up for Gallo. Maybe he wouldn’t get as many touches with Lebron and Wade getting most of the action, but he would probably get a ton of open shot opportunities when he did get the ball.

    I guess though a Lebron-Bosh combination might offer him the same opportunities as well. It just seems to me that a Lebron-Wade tandem would garner so much attention that wide open looks would be all over the place for the other guys on the floor.

    Again, I am willing to embrace the possibility of Lebron and Wade on a Knick team with open arms.

  32. Ted Nelson

    @30

    Wade is better than Pippen, but Pippen was also one of the best players in the league. The situation is a lot different in that Wade has established himself as a franchise player without LeBron, whereas Pippen came into the league as MJ’s second banana. If both players–LeBron and Wade–willingly sign up to play with each other, though, they have necessarily agreed to put their egos aside to some degree for the sake of winning. There might be some growing pains, but they’ve both willingly decided to play together knowing they have to be 1a and 1b on the wing. If either one doesn’t want to do that, they won’t sign with the same team.

    @31 and 32

    One thing I really like about LeBron-Wade is that you have two strong wing defenders as a base. You need some interior scoring as a complement, but mostly you can concentrate on getting some interior defense to pair with them. With Bosh you’ve already got a weak/mediocre interior defender who you have to compensate for. Between Bosh and Danilo you’ve got two guys who aren’t exactly Dennis Rodman/Hakeem… The Bynum/Gasol type frontcourts could give them lots of troubles late in the playoffs.
    Offensively Lebron/Wade allows you to do a lot of things… Douglas and Gallo and Walker (shooters) and Chandler (cutter) would all be strong offensive complements who could contribute low-to-medium volume efficient scoring. You could put LeBron/Wade at the 2/1 or the 3/2…

    Overall Wade has been a much better player on his career than Bosh, so if you don’t expect that to change… in a perfect world go with Wade. Wade is older and coming off a down year, while Bosh is younger and coming off a career type year. If you think Wade is already on the decline and Bosh is on the accent then maybe go with Bosh. The Celtics and Paul Pierce especially (since he’s a wing scorer who draws a lot of contact… though a much better perimeter shooter than Wade) have to give you some hope that you can win with an aging Wade for years to come.

    @33

    If you have the choice between Wade v. LeBron or Wade v. Dwight Howard or Wade v. Kevin Durant inuries and age come into play, but if you’re looking at Wade v. Rudy Gay I think it’s a chance you take.

  33. SeeWhyDee77

    See Ted, u have stats to back u up. I’m just usin the eye test. Like I said, Parker may be a great floor general-I don’t know becuz maybe his role was to score. But what I was also trying to imply, and I think u backed me up on that, is San Antonio would ask for 2 much in return for Parker. The only way it would be beneficial to us is if we got Parker and a pick for Curry’s cap room and a young player similar to RJ. And we are forgetting how great a coach Pop is. He may be able to salvage Eddy’s career. Furthermore, to get Parker we would problee hafta take RJ as well. I didn’t say that in my earlier statements, but that is a big reason why I say no to Parker. I’m not picking Sergio and Douglas over Parker, I’m just sayin stick with them unless you can get a better PG for a reasonable price. Also, I understand that Sergio has been in the league for a few years, but he hasn’t been in Mike D’s system for a few years. Remember Duhon looked better than his previous years his first season in NY with Mike D. So i’m just suggesting that we don’t write this kid off yet. And I definitely am not saying he’s a star in the making. But he’s better than Duhon. And if Walsh were able to land LBJ and Bosh or a second All Star even if it were Johnson, then we can play with a Douglas/Rodriguez platoon at the point. Supposedly, Sergio should be able to thrive in Mike D’s ofensive system..

  34. stratomatic

    I like Tony Parker, but if the deal somehow includes giving up BOTH Douglas and Chandler (that’s what I read somewhere) along with Curry I’d be against it unless it also somehow lands Bosh and Lebron.

    Tony Parker has been an excellent player for San Antonio in Pop’s offensive scheme. However, Pop coaches a different offensive game than D’Antoni.

    D’Antoni’s offensive system puts a premium on 3 point shooting from the PG. Parker is well below average as a 3 point shooter. If we are going to give up assets (including Curry’s expiring contract which may become a useful asset this year), I think the preferred route is to find players that are BOTH high quality and that fit very well into the offensive scheme we likely to run.

    For example, I can’t imagine Phil Jackson wanting to use up a lot of Laker cap space on Steve Nash if there are options to add high quality pieces that fit the Triangle better. As great as Nash is, he would be less effective in the Triangle. So the Lakers might as well use that space for a high quality “big” that can anchor the Triangle or another important piece in their system.

  35. Ted Nelson

    @35

    Yeah, I agree that the deal has to make sense and I also agree that Parker might not be the best target depending on who else is available. I think he’d do well for D’Antoni, with the one caveat being he’s a poor jump shooter.
    Between his inability to get much out of either Billups or Sergio and Duhon’s career worst season… the assumption that D’Antoni can make any PG look like Steve Nash seems pretty propostorous. I’m not accusing you of thinking that, just saying that the general concensus out there seems to be that D’Antoni is the PG whisperer and the assumption of a lot of posters here is that the Knicks desperately need a PG, any PG to make D’Antoni’s hallowed system work. Steve Nash, of course, was already one of the best offensive PGs in the league before ever playing for D’Antoni, though he did kick it up a notch under D’Antoni.

  36. stratomatic

    @37

    I don’t think the Knicks need a traditional PG to run the system, but it’s kind of tough to find good enough playmakers at the other positions because they typically have different skill sets.

    I think Lebron could clearly run a D’Antoni offense. In fact, I think he would excel in it even beyond everyone’s optimistic scenarios. Not only could he run a great P&R, IMO he’s at his best in transition in the open court because he’s freaking unstopabble once he gets up a head of steam. One of his greatest assets is that he’s so darn fast and strong. IMO he was not used optimally for the Cavs.

    If he was on the Knicks running the point and executing the P&R with Lee (or other) and fast breaking and also had options likes Gallo to kick the ball out to IMO he could legitimately average 35 and 10-12 assists per game. Beyond unstoppable.

  37. Ted Nelson

    @36

    Are we really still on this?

    Again, stratomatic, you’ve got to be a little bit flexible. If the only way Mike D’Antoni is going to be a successful coach is by finding exact clones of Nash, Marion, Amare, Barbosa, etc. then he’s never going to be successful. Just because his system worked one way in Phoenix does not mean that it has to work the EXACT same way in NY.

    Nash performs two extremely important parts of the PG role as well as anyone in the league: playmaking and efficient scoring. He does both of those as well as anyone individually, so imagine how few people can do both. Parker is not AMAZING as a playmaker, but he is very good. Good enough that maybe in a different system he could look amazing (like Nash’s switch from Dallas to Phoenix).

    To exactly replicate D’Antoni’s Phoenix system, as you seem hell-bent on doing, are you going to take only Nash’s 3-pt shooting? Wasn’t his ability to make great passes to Amare and Marion, who were both among the league leaders in assisted baskets from one player (Nash) annually if memory serves, and everyone else also very vital to D’Antoni’s system? If you put a Toney Douglas who can shoot but not make plays for others is that going to work? Are you going to sit around and sign Duhons/Sergios to 1 year deals until Chris Paul or John Wall falls into your lap?

    D’Antoni doesn’t seem as bent out of shape about finding a Steve Nash clone as you are, if the leak that Wade is part of Plan B and Plan C and Plan E is correct… Wade is as poor an outside shooter as Parker and the leak is that Wade would be D’Antoni’s PG… heck Wade’s eFG% on jumpers is lower than Lee’s was BEFORE this past season.

    I’m not saying that Parker should be the Knicks #1 option. If they miss on LeBron and co, though, and Parker is available for a reasonable price, then he has to be considered. You say if someone who is as good as Parker and a better fit is available… If the Knicks miss on LeBron and Wade, what guard as good as Parker is going to be available? I agree that if a better deal is out there you make it, but if Parker is the best option I think between his playmaking and extremely efficient inside scoring he can work as a PG for D’Antoni. Signing him to a long-term deal after next season is a bit more risky…

    You need a high quality “big” to anchor the triangle? Funny that Chicago won 6 Championships running the triangle… Is Luc Longley the most underrated player of all time? And were the first three rings in anticipation of Luc Longley one day joining the team? Again, Phil Jackson (and maybe Tex Winters) adapted his system to the talent on hand.
    Nash is a good enough offensive player to excel in any system. He was already one of the best PGs in the league in Dallas.

  38. SeeWhyDee77

    Needless to say, but it’s gonna be an interesting summer. And u know what? I can’t help but think that if Buss decides not to pay Phil Jackson, that Walsh would be a fool not to hire him-especially with the FA talent on the market. I like Mike D, though he has his shortcomings as all coaches do. But Phil has won a million titles, and he used to play for the Knicks. He would also make sure we have a sound defense as well as an efficient offense. Like I said, this is gonna be an interesting summer….can u imagine if we landed Phil Jackson, LBJ and whoever else wants to come along? LOL, i’d even welcome Duhon back if we were 2 land Phil and ‘Bron

  39. stratomatic

    @39

    That was a lot of verbage covering things I didn’t say. :-)

    Since when is Lebron a PG or anything like Nash?

    What I am suggesting is we DO need a very good playmaker, very good outside shooting, fast athletic versatile players etc…. otherwise we shouldn’t have hired D’Antoni to begin with.

    For better or worse, that’s who he is. I think YOU need to accept that and stop arguing with me. As I said last time, if you don’t like D’Antoni and think he’s not flexible enough, then your disagreement is not with me. It’s with Walsh for hiring him. Send in your resume and a cover letter explaining to Walsh why D’Antoni isn’t flexible enough and see if he’ll hire you.

    Seriously, last year on his show for MSG, D’Antoni described several teams he coached in Italy where someone other than a traditional PG ran the team. He laughed out loud when Breen asked if Lebron could do the job because it was an obvious “yes”. However, he explained how he still valued excellent 3 point shooting, running fast breaks, floor spacing, the P&R, long athletic versatile players (including at the PF). That’s the formula he thinks creates the most efficient offense.

    He demonstrated a bit flexibility last year by running the offense through Lee for some spells and I’m sure he will adapt to the players we have this year. But I can assure you he and Walsh have specific skill sets in mind.

    It might be interesting to read some of the detailed explanations of SSOL, the Triangle, The Princeton and various other schemes to better familiarize yourself with the goals and details of each. I’m not an expert of any of them, but the differences are clear.

    You appear to be an argumentative fellow. I have no disagreement with you if you think this is the wrong approach. As I said, I am just the messenger. But I don’t have the time to debate what they are trying to build here. I already know because they’ve already told us.

  40. SeeWhyDee77

    side note: I’m not sayin that Phil Jackson would jump at the chance 2 coach tha Knicks..but Walsh would be foolish 2 not go all out 2 hire him..i’m sure Mike D would land on his feet if there are still openings

  41. stratomatic

    By the way, Wade is such a great player I am sure they would be thrilled to adapt if they could get him. I just suspect they’d still be running an offense designed to run and create a lot of space with great outside shooters. They would just be creating the space for Wade to operate in instead of the long athletic C like Amare.

  42. Ted Nelson

    “What I am suggesting is we DO need a very good playmaker, very good outside shooting, fast athletic versatile players etc….”

    Tony Parker covers two of those three things: he’s a very good playmaker and as fast as any PG in the world. You can put shooters around him. LeBron is not a good jump shooter himself: .436 eFG% on jumpers this season. My point is just that you can’t get hung up saying “this one guy doesn’t do this one thing, so he’s obviously not a fit for this one system…” Basketball is still basketball, and by and large good players are successfull throughout their careers in various systems and bad players stink regardless of the system. At the margins you’ll have some role players that one coach will use and another won’t, and a players’ strenths might be highlighted a bit better in one system. It’s still basketball at the end of the day. It’s not the difference between a 3-4 and 4-3 front 7.

    “Since when is Lebron a PG or anything like Nash?”

    He’s a PG since he assists on over 40% of his team’s baskets while he’s on the court. As odd as it sounds, there’s a big way in which he’s like Steve Nash: they’re two of the only players in the league who can put up ast% 40+ and TS% 60+.
    Anyway, I get your point and I did go a bit overboard on the rigidity thing (though you have repeatedly been adament that you understand D’Antoni and Walsh better than anyone else and that a lot of good basketball players simply will not fit into D’Antoni’s system). Just saying LeBron is a very special player who is like Nash, Joe Johnson, Diaw, Barbosa, Marion, Amare rolled into one with some Artest thrown in.

    “I think YOU need to accept that and stop arguing with me. As I said last time, if you don’t like D’Antoni and think he’s not flexible enough, then your disagreement is not with me.”

    My disagreement is with how unflexible you make D’Antoni out to be. Every player we look at (who is not All-World) you seem to think there’s no way he fits into D’Antoni’s system. It would be great to get all the best guys, but if they don’t the Knicks still need to field a team next season.
    Running the offense through Lee is one example of how D’Antoni is not going to cry on the bench if he doesn’t have a PG who can create and shoot.

    “However, he explained how he still valued excellent 3 point shooting, running fast breaks, floor spacing, the P&R, long athletic versatile players (including at the PF).”

    It’s basketball. Everyone values those things. That’s pretty much the list of things Isiah proclaimed to be looking for in players during his brilliant run as Knicks’ president.
    How many NBA coaches say: “I want short, slow, unathletic guys who can’t shoot! That’s what I think creates an efficient offense!”

    “But I can assure you he and Walsh have specific skill sets in mind.”

    Yeah: basketball skills. I can assure you that both LeBron and Wade are below average jump shooters, yet I can assure you those are 2 of the top 3 players the Knicks want to bring in.
    Obviously the Knicks are not likely to start building around a bunch of average-to-above-average FAs who can’t shoot like Tony Allen, Livingston, Craig Smith… but how many teams would?

    “It might be interesting to read some of the detailed explanations of SSOL, the Triangle, The Princeton and various other schemes to better familiarize yourself with the goals and details of each. I’m not an expert of any of them, but the differences are clear.”

    Thanks, I don’t know anything about basketball.

    “You appear to be an argumentative fellow. I have no disagreement with you if you think this is the wrong approach. As I said, I am just the messenger. But I don’t have the time to debate what they are trying to build here. I already know because they’ve already told us.”

    I am argumentative. I have a problem with you presenting your opinion as if it were fact and acting as if you know more than anyone else. I have a problem with you coming in with already formed opinions and not being willing to even consider the points I make to counter those opinions. I understand that there are variances in different offensive systems, I’m saying that these variances are not that great. All you have to do to prove this point is look at how players performed across different systems. For all your insistence that SA and Phoenix run completely different systems in which no player can succeed in both… Kurt Thomas was a rotation player for both. Raja Bell and Bruce Bowen had largely similar games. Boris Diaw performed as well for D’Antoni’s polar opposite (Larry Brown) as he did for D’Antoni. Basketball is basketball. Coaches besides D’Antoni don’t look at a guy who can shoot the 3 and just say he’s worthless because they hate 3pt shooters.

    Will you please stop calling yourself the messanger? As I said in a previous post, you are telling us your opinion/interpretation/analysis of what D’Antoni says/thinks/does. Unless you are delivering me a message straight from Michael Andrew D’Antoni, please refrain from calling yourself his messanger.

    Please also read my posts and do not assume I am contradicting everything you say. Like most discussions on this board, it’s a matter of degree.

  43. Ted Nelson

    @43

    Wade can be the Knicks PG, but not Parker? Parker is every bit the jump shooter Wade is. I find it hard it hard to believe that Wade will make a great PG for D’Antoni and Parker would make a terrible one.

    According to leaked rumors (not his own words) D’Antoni would make Wade a Magic Johnson-esque PG. He would be the PG, not the center. I see the way you’re looking at things to say he’d be the Amare, but I find it a bit twisted. Wade would be the primary ball handler, primary playmaker, and primary scorer. He would initiate his scoring on the perimeter and not the post…
    I find it a lot easier to just say the system would adjust than to twist it around and rationalize how it is the exact same system as was employed in Phoenix but the 6-9 C with the ast% under 10 who took 45% jumpers became the 6-4 C with an ast% over 40 who takes 65% jumpers…
    Just as I find it a lot more likely that Jackson adjusted to coaching Shaq instead of insisting that he used the exact same plays and the exact same spacing. His philosophy might have remained the same, but he adjusted his system.

    Again, creating space to get easy shots is not D’Antoniball… it’s basketball. D’Antoni has a fairly distinct offensive system, but it’s still basketball.

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