Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, July 24, 2014

ESPN: Kidd DWI

According to ESPN:

New York Knicks point guard Jason Kidd was arrested early Sunday and charged with a misdemeanor of driving while intoxicated, according to Southampton Town police.

A police spokesman said Kidd was involved in a single-car accident in which his 2010 Cadillac Escalade struck a telephone pole and went into the woods in hamlet of Watermill.

Kidd suffered minor injuries, according to the spokesman, and was treated at Southampton Hospital.

285 comments on “ESPN: Kidd DWI

  1. PrecociousNeophyte

    If Ricky Rubio was a RFA right now and received the same offer as Lin would there be any doubt about matching his contract?

  2. Frank

    PrecociousNeophyte:
    If Ricky Rubio was a RFA right now and received the same offer as Lin would there be any doubt about matching his contract?

    Like someone mentioned on the last thread – this sudden turnaround feels very much like something personal. I am sure everything will come out in the next few days if we end up actually letting him go to Houston.

    But the fact that Lin is so shocked – does definitely make you think he thought he could just keep squeezing and they would pay no matter what. Sometimes you get what you ask for. You should never sign a contract that you wouldn’t be happy fulfilling. It’s a MUCH unfriendlier contract to the team – that extra $5M (and associated taxes) in year 3, as well as no team option in year 4.

  3. DS

    Mike Kurylo:
    FYI I came in at 2:35ish. You can listen to it for up to 3 hours.

    Good breakdown Mike K… the interviewer’s (SVP?) stuff on Brookyln was hard to listen to. :)

  4. DS

    Also, I liked your breakdown of Felton. For ESPN to act like a Felton is a substitute for Lin is Crazytown. Anyone who thinks he’s good enough is prob. clinging to the fact that he barely managed to hang onto an average of 18 ppg and 8 apg before crumbling just in time to ruin any chance of an All-Star bid.

  5. Brian Cronin

    Bill Simmons just depressed the heck out of me even more with his recent tweets:

    1. To the Knicks fans who keep asking: If you’re going to switch allegiance to Brooklyn, it has to happen this summer. But I’m fine with it.
    2. Here’s the thing – Dolan is NEVER selling. The franchise will ALWAYS be screwed up. You have a 2nd NYC team and a legit excuse to leave.
    3. If Celtics were in same situation (with a Dolan owner), I’d stop rooting for them and be an NBA widow unless there was a 2nd Boston team.
    4. The important thing to remember – Dolan is a complete buffoon. You have a 12-year track record to examine now. He’s an incompetent owner.
    5. So you have to ask yourself… “Do I really want to spend DECADES of my life with my NBA fate tied to this guy?” You control that answer
    6. And if you’re a diehard, loyal down-with-the-ship type fan, that’s fine too… stay with the Knicks. Just saying you have an out here.
    7. My buddy @housefromdc quit on Orioles because of Angelos (Dolan-esque). Baseball widow for years, now a huge Nats fan. Totally happy.
    8. Last thought – I have a great deal of respect for Knicks fans (and NYK history + MSG). They deserve better than… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIiM91 …..

    Obviously, I’m never giving up on this team, but yeah, that doesn’t help ya feel any better, ya know?

  6. DS

    Brian, you like Bill Simmons? Your comments are so even keeled and he such an overreactor.

  7. Brian Cronin

    I like Simmons. I think there’s a place for a guy who’s there just to give his subjective, emotional take on things as a commentator, ya know? I’d prefer Simmons give his “I’m just a fan” overreaction to actual NBA reporters who do the same overreactions but try to claim objectivity.

    And I think he captures well the awful feeling this situation gives many Knick fans (myself included).

  8. BigBlueAL

    Simmons comes across to me as someone who would never abandon his favorite Boston teams ever. I think he is having fun today trolling Knick fans :-)

  9. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, I agree that it is unlikely that he would ever drop the Celtics. I think he’s as much of a “go down with the ship” fan with the Celtics as we are with the Knicks.

  10. Kikuchiyo

    Posting and toasting = Ewing

    Spinning and winning = LJ

    Drinking and driving = Kidd

    So. Not. Cool.

  11. ephus

    Mike – great interview. Well said, factual and not over the top.

    The Bill Simmons tweets stabbed me in the heart, which I think was the intent.

    I am waiting until Tuesday night to reach a conclusion. There are many moving parts. It sounds as if Felton to the Knicks is not yet finalized. I have no confidence we know whether the Knicks are going to match on Lin.

    But, can we please get every sportswriter who is writing about the salary cap implications of Lin in 2015 to get the facts straight. People who are writing that the tax hit might be “$20 million” are dramatically understating the number. The real number, as Mike said on air, is almost certainly at least $45 million in tax (on top of $15 million in salary).

    If Dolan is scared away by that tax hit (which is not irrational), it seems like he just learned that number. If I can figure out it in my spare time, Dolan should have known it long ago.

    I’ve been a Knick fan for life, and I am not planning to give up now. But the Knicks sure do not make it easy.

  12. ephus

    Re Simmons: He actually did give up on a Boston team — the Bruins. He wrote extensively about how he became a “hockey widow” in the wake of the Ray Bourque fiasco. He came back as a front-runner when the Bruins won the Cup, but he would admit he is now a fair-weather fan.

  13. jon abbey

    Bill Simmons is another guy who is not as good as he used to be, although he certainly hasn’t fallen to Lupica/Francesa-type depths yet.

  14. BigBlueAL

    ephus:
    Re Simmons: He actually did give up on a Boston team — the Bruins.He wrote extensively about how he became a “hockey widow” in the wake of the Ray Bourque fiasco.He came back as a front-runner when the Bruins won the Cup, but he would admit he is now a fair-weather fan.

    Does he really love hockey though??

    For me I know for a fact that for the rest of my life I will always be a Yankee and Knick fan. Those are my 2 favorite teams in my 2 favorite sports.

    Im not a huge NFL fan but since as a little kid I remember the Giants winning the Super Bowl XXI it made me root for them instead of the Jets. But when my family moved to Miami the Dolphins were the only team everybody I met seemed to root for. My dad got alot of tickets to Dolphin games and they had Dan Marino who was fun as hell to watch so I became a pretty big Dolphin fan. But when Marino and Jimmy Johnson retired at the same time I stopped rooting for them and just went back to only rooting for the Giants although not as diehard as I do the Yankees and Knicks.

    So I can see circumstances changing making you no longer root for a team but again I just cant see me ever not rooting for the 2 teams Ive rooted for like crazy my entire life since I was a little kid living in NY.

  15. daaarn

    BigBlueAL: Does he really love hockey though??

    For me I know for a fact that for the rest of my life I will always be a Yankee and Knick fan.Those are my 2 favorite teams in my 2 favorite sports.

    Im not a huge NFL fan but since as a little kid I remember the Giants winning the Super Bowl XXI it made me root for them instead of the Jets.But when my family moved to Miami the Dolphins were the only team everybody I met seemed to root for.My dad got alot of tickets to Dolphin games and they had Dan Marino who was fun as hell to watch so I became a pretty big Dolphin fan.But when Marino and Jimmy Johnson retired at the same time I stopped rooting for them and just went back to only rooting for the Giants although not as diehard as I do the Yankees and Knicks.

    So I can see circumstances changing making you no longer root for a team but again I just cant see me ever not rooting for the 2 teams Ive rooted for like crazy my entire life since I was a little kid living in NY.

    Im in a similar situation with the Giants: I grew up not being a big football fan in general, but LT swayed me to the Giants over the Jets long ago, and though i wouldnt call myself a real fan, i do pull for them more often than not. As for the Knicks and Yankees, I made my decision about those teams long ago, and even after having moved away from NY, I’ll be going down with the ship for those teams (and to a lesser extent, the Rangers, though since the lockout, I’ve been a lukewarm hockey fan at best). However, whenever I have kids (which wont be for awhile haha), I’ll definitely try to make them Yankees fans, but I don’t think I could in good conscious push them towards the Knicks, at least not now.

  16. PrecociousNeophyte

    What’s the difference in tax money in Y3 between the offer sheet as originally reported and the new official one?

  17. Brian Cronin

    What’s the difference in tax money in Y3 between the offer sheet as originally reported and the new official one?

    Off the top of my head, $15 million (plus the extra $6 million in salary).

    That is something that I think is worth noting – that the previous contract would have cost the Knicks a shit-ton of money in luxury taxes, as well, and they seemed totally fine matching that offer.

  18. ephus

    Brian Cronin: What’s the difference in tax money in Y3 between the offer sheet as originally reported and the new official one?

    Off the top of my head, $15 million (plus the extra $6 million in salary).

      

    Depends on how far over the tax line the Knicks end up. If they end up $20 million over the tax line, the $6 million would cost an extra $18 million in tax. If they end up $25 million over the tax line, the $6 million would cost an extra $20.5 million in tax.

    I am listening to Alan Hahn make sense. Knicks could match on Lin and then assess their trade possibilities starting January 15 of this year. This is why I keep saying we should wait until Tuesday night before jumping to conclusions.

  19. Brian Cronin

    Thanks, ephus, I knew you’d have the exact figures!

    And yes, obviously Hahn makes sense. No doubt about it that matching is the sensible thing to do. But the Knicks might not be making this decision based on “sense” so much as “Dolan is pissed off.”

  20. DS

    So next year the Rockets will either be Lin, Kevin Martin and a few first rounders or Lin and the current Orlando Magic?

  21. Brian Cronin

    So next year the Rockets will either be Lin, Kevin Martin and a few first rounders or Lin and the current Orlando Magic?

    Ha!

    Yeah, it is definitely a bizarre little puzzle there in Houston. Parson is still there, too, right? I like Parsons.

  22. Brian Cronin

    Has Melo never heard the phrase “no comment”?

    Melo to Y! on Lin:”Its up to ownership to match, not me.I’m tired of people trying to blame me for the fact that the Knicks might not match”

  23. JC Knickfan

    If Knicks want any chance to get Chris Paul, if make sense to match Lin offer sheet. As long as Lin is above average PG he is still very movable. Hopefully, this is not Dolan taking this as a grudge.

  24. ephus

    The original Rockets’ bid never made any sense to me. At $9.3 million for year 3 and a team option on year 4, the contract was probably more team favorable than the Knicks’ max offer (4 years/$24 million).

    The new Rockets’ offer is what the Knicks should have been prepared for from the start. It is not a ridiculous offer from the Rockets perspective, because they will not face the tax and Lin’s salary will be smoothed. So, for the Rockets, it is a three year/$25 million offer, which is roughly what Mike Conley will make over the same period of time.

    The new CBA makes this a much more costly contract for the Knicks to keep to completion. Year 1 would cost the Knicks $10 million ($5 million salary + $5 million tax). Year 2 would cost around $14 million ($5.2 million salary + ~$9 million tax). Year 3 would cost around $40 million ($15 million salary + ~$25 million tax). So, in all, the Knicks are looking at a 3 year/$64 million cost.

    I do not believe it would be irrational for the Knicks to decide that Lin is not worth the cost. I would keep him with an eye towards trading him (or another high priced part) later — but that introduces instability into the roster.

    It is irrational, however, if the Knicks thinking has changed in the last week. They should have known what they would do if Lin go the 3rd year max offer from the beginning.

  25. DS

    Brian Cronin: Yeah, it is definitely a bizarre little puzzle there in Houston. Parson is still there, too, right? I like Parsons.

    Yes. I forgot Parsons and Budinger were different people… 3 first rounders plus Kevin Martin whose contract is expiring can prob. get Houston a better return from a team who has less bad contracts to hang on them than Orlando does. Lin will keep them popular in China while they wait for the next superstar to become disgruntled.

  26. JK47

    The Knicks are not going to match the Lin contract. James Dolan is a mouth-breathing cretin, and he is not going to match just to “spite” Jeremy Lin and Darryl Morey. He thinks the team does not need Lin, and he is right in a way. The long-suffering fans of this team will still support the team, he’ll still make his money, the team will stink and it will be business as usual.

    Of course you could match Lin and flip him later– the poison pill doesn’t come into play for two more seasons. Any franchise with a smidgen of basketball knowledge would know that Lin, even with the poison pill, is an asset, and you don’t just give away assets.

    But if you’re the Knicks, you DO give away assets. It’s your stock in trade. That’s why Bill Simmons is right– this team will never be a winner. The Knicks are one of the very dumbest franchises in the NBA and just when you think maybe they’re not so dumb, they make it abundantly clear again. Any fans who think there is “exciting” basketball ahead for this team are sorely deluded. All that’s ahead for this team is decline. In 2012-2013 the Knicks will probably be a mediocre low playoff seed. In 2013-2014 they’ll be lucky to make the playoffs. By 2014-2015 entropy will have set in they’ll probably be a lottery team.

    Then they’ll reboot the whole thing again, and fuck it up again, because that’s what they do. And everybody will get all excited again, then disappointed. This franchise is a joke, and it always will be. Knick fans deserve a hell of a lot better than this. It’s sad.

  27. StatsTeacher

    True. BUT Knicks never made offer to Lin, right? The ONLY offer he had he signed, and now he is gettin’ beat up for it, what bullshit. Also, saying “the Lin contract” results in this huge luxury tax hit is not completely true, the aggregate of this possible contract + the moronic STAT contract, borderline moronic contract for Melo and “good” contract for Chandler taken together make the tax hit. The Knicks, IMHO completely blew this saying “we’ll match anything” and then not offering Lin a contract, wow; just fuckin’ stupid.

    ephus:
    The original Rockets’ bid never made any sense to me.At $9.3 million for year 3 and a team option on year 4, the contract was probably more team favorable than the Knicks’ max offer (4 years/$24 million).

    The new Rockets’ offer is what the Knicks should have been prepared for from the start.It is not a ridiculous offer from the Rockets perspective, because they will not face the tax and Lin’s salary will be smoothed.So, for the Rockets, it is a three year/$25 million offer, which is roughly what Mike Conley will make over the same period of time.

    The new CBA makes this a much more costly contract for the Knicks to keep to completion.Year 1 would cost the Knicks $10 million ($5 million salary + $5 million tax).Year 2 would cost around $14 million ($5.2 million salary + ~$9 million tax).Year 3 would cost around $40 million ($15 million salary + ~$25 million tax).So, in all, the Knicks are looking at a 3 year/$64 million cost.

    I do not believe it would be irrational for the Knicks to decide that Lin is not worth the cost.I would keep him with an eye towards trading him (or another high priced part) later — but that introduces instability into the roster.

    It is irrational, however, if the Knicks thinking has changed in the last week.They should have known what they would do if Lin go the 3rd year max offer from the…

  28. JK47

    The Knicks said they’d let the market set the price for Lin, and then they balk when the market sets the price?

    The front office of this team simply does not understand basketball. They’re like the bad fantasy team owner that doesn’t really know the sport that well and just drafts all guys he has heard of before. “Jason Kidd? I know that guy. Let’s get him.” “Ray Felton? He averaged 18 and 8 for a while that time, he’s just as good as Lin.”

    They’re stupid beyond belief. I mean, is anybody here really convinced Dolan will never re-hire Isiah Thomas? That’ll probably happen someday. That’s how stupid the man is– you can’t entirely rule out the possibility of Isiah Thomas returning.

  29. Z

    ephus:
    Year 1 would cost the Knicks $10 million ($5 million salary + $5 million tax).Year 2 would cost around $14 million ($5.2 million salary + ~$9 million tax).Year 3 would cost around $40 million ($15 million salary + ~$25 million tax).So, in all, the Knicks are looking at a 3 year/$64 million cost.

    But Ephus, the implication here is that Lin will cost Dolan $64 million when in reality it is Amar’e + Melo + Chandler + Shumpert + Lin that costs him the extra $40 million. And of the 5, Lin’s contract is far from the worst either fiscally or productively.

  30. Brian Cronin

    But Ephus, the implication here is that Lin will cost Dolan $64 million when in reality it is Amar’e + Melo + Chandler + Shumpert + Lin that costs him the extra $40 million. And of the 5, Lin’s contract is far from the worst either fiscally or productively.

    While in general, I do agree with you, it’s all a bit of a rhetorical thing, right? At the end of the day, if they do not match Lin, they won’t have to pay the extra tax. If they do, they will.

  31. Brian Cronin

    The Knicks said they’d let the market set the price for Lin, and then they balk when the market sets the price?

    Yeah, I was tweeting that last night and really, that’s perhaps my biggest complaint about the whole thing. They played the whole thing to have one result and when they get that result…they freak out about the result? So dumb.

  32. Hudson River

    The idea that this is that tax automatically, what ever happened to the explanation that Lin was worth so much in season tickets sales and advertising revenue from China that even an exorbitant contract – given that we’re gonna be capped out regardless – is worth it? Why has that changed? The tradeoff is much closer to what Dolan has been paying over the last few years in terms of luxury cap (its all in the high 30s per season over the last few years).

    Relative to Dolan contracts, this one is so much less egregious even though theres a good chance he regresses and becomes nothing. Remember the Marbury/ Penny Hardaway trade that killed us with contacts? We already had this:

    Allan Houston $ 14,343,750
    Antonio McDyess $ 12,600,000
    Latrell Sprewell $ 11,937,500
    Shandon Anderson $ 6,100,000
    Charlie Ward $ 5,570,000
    Howard Eisley $ 5,312,500
    Clarence Weatherspoon $ 4,991,800
    Kurt Thomas $ 4,903,750
    Travis Knight $ 4,000,000
    Othella Harrington $ 2,700,000

    Now, for a team that could compete for a ECF trip is settling for Prigoni and Felton, when he paid 15 million for Travis Knight, Clarence Weatherspoon and Howard Eisley, despite having an equivalent contract to Amare (McDyess). They signed all their other free agents first, then didn’t have enough cap space for their best free agent. Grunweld please save us from this monster! Convince Dolan you can trade that contract next year if need be!

  33. formido

    Again, Morey is a genius. He had zero leverage. We thought.

    Everyone thought the original offer sheet was low. Everyone thought it was a huge win for the Knicks, to the point that people actually thought it might be part of a collusive deal with Houston. In retrospect it was suspiciously low, wasn’t it?

    Morey played the one card he had, pissing Dolan off.

  34. Brian Cronin

    Again, Morey is a genius. He had zero leverage. We thought.

    Everyone thought the original offer sheet was low. Everyone thought it was a huge win for the Knicks, to the point that people actually thought it might be part of a collusive deal with Houston. In retrospect it was suspiciously low, wasn’t it?

    Morey played the one card he had, pissing Dolan off.

    Well, we’ll see. Hopefully Grunwald can still talk him out of it.

  35. SSS

    I think its entirely possible that this is all an effort for the Knicks to deceive the Rockets into thinking they’ll be getting Lin as a measure of very, very petty revenge. Would it surprise anyone here if Dolan purposefully put out false rumors to try and get back at Morey for changing the contract?

    Or maybe I’m just deceiving myself because I want to believe they’ll match.

  36. formido

    Heh. I was just pondering this question earlier today. I think so. It sure beats espn’s message boards. :)

  37. yehudi3000

    Yes, the third year is huge, but overall, letting lin leave now will affect the next 10 year, not 3.

    I also think that Lin is our only chance ti sign CP3. No way we make the move without him.
    In my opinion, we got to match, and if we can get Paul or Howard (for lin+chandler) trade him.

  38. Knicks4Eva

    It looks like the Felton contract (that trade is not finalized yet, right?) is about 9 million over 3 years, which is totally reasonable I think. A bit high for a 3rd string point guard, but I think the Knicks will still keep Lin. We had so much trouble at the position last year that I can see wanting an assured minimum level of production, which Felton gives us.

  39. Spree8nyk8

    yehudi3000:
    How about Lin+novak+thomas+felton+white for CP3?

    I think it can work.

    How about fuck the Knicks and i hope they don’t get a god damn good thing ever again. I’d be willing to bet that Dolan ships beautiful white doves from all over the world to his house so he can wipe his ass with them. Fuck this stupid franchise. Being a fan of the Knicks is definitely the leading cause of brain damage.

  40. Z

    SSS:
    I think its entirely possible that this is all an effort for the Knicks to deceive the Rockets into thinking they’ll be getting Lin as a measure of very, very petty revenge.Would it surprise anyone here if Dolan purposefully put out false rumors to try and get back at Morey for changing the contract?

    Or maybe I’m just deceiving myself because I want to believe they’ll match.

    Maybe we’re still pissed at Morey for holding Jared Jeffries’ contract for ransom? All that trade did, after all, was out us in the top tax stratosphere by spending that so-called cap space on Amar’e “the NEW worst contract in the league” Stoudemire.

    I feel like we’re Ewing and Morey is Jordan– we do our best, but he’s the winner in the end every time… :(

  41. Z

    Brian Cronin: While in general, I do agree with you, it’s all a bit of a rhetorical thing, right? At the end of the day, if they do not match Lin, they won’t have to pay the extra tax. If they do, they will.

    2 years is a long time. Walsh was able to clear Randolph, Crawford, and Jeffries in that window.

    I know it’s feeding Ruru, er, and others to say it, but choosing Melo over Lin is a bad basketball decision. Lin is younger, cheaper, more marketable, and in his sample a better player too. It should be an easy choice to make by anyone not hopelessly blinded with lust for Carmelo Anthony.

  42. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    JK47:
    The Knicks said they’d let the market set the price for Lin, and then they balk when the market sets the price?

    The front office of this team simply does not understand basketball.They’re like the bad fantasy team owner that doesn’t really know the sport that well and just drafts all guys he has heard of before.“Jason Kidd?I know that guy.Let’s get him.”“Ray Felton?He averaged 18 and 8 for a while that time, he’s just as good as Lin.”

    They’re stupid beyond belief.I mean, is anybody here really convinced Dolan will never re-hire Isiah Thomas?That’ll probably happen someday.That’s how stupid the man is– you can’t entirely rule out the possibility of Isiah Thomas returning.

    Oh no you di’int. These are front office professionals! They must have all sorts of sweet analytics that we peons could only dream of!

    (I just want one person to tell me that building a team around undervalued parts (according to WP48) and waiting for a 45 win core before pulling the trigger on a multi-pick deal for a top player like Paul, LBJ, Howard, et al. would be a good idea. Just once.)

  43. Z

    Spree8nyk8: How about fuck the Knicks and i hope they don’t get a god damn good thing ever again. I’d be willing to bet that Dolan ships beautiful white doves from all over the world to his house so he can wipe his ass with them.Fuck this stupid franchise.Being a fan of the Knicks is definitely the leading cause of brain damage.

    Wow, we’ve even turned Spree to the dark side! (he was the resident optimist before Ruruland got here:)

  44. JK47

    I want to hear how ruru spins it when Jeremy Lin walks. Something about Felton pick and roll blah blah blah, Synergy this, 55 wins floor that, Melo blah blah blah depth unicorns fairies pixies.

  45. Knicks4Eva

    How does Kidd’s dwi influence the situation?
    If they were considering letting Lin go (and I’ve seen no believable report with named sources, only variations of “unnamed sources”), would Kidd’s situation cause a reconsideration?

  46. Spree8nyk8

    Z: Wow, we’ve even turned Spree to the dark side! (he was the resident optimist before Ruruland got here:)

    The worst part for me is that these fucking assholes make me somehow feel like I’m the fucking loser here. Because I’m completely crushed by this shit. I haven’t been this depressed since an ACTUAL tragedy happened, and for what? For a basketball team that doesn’t give a fuck about me? I spent 27 years worshipping this fucking team that won absolutely NOTHING. I loved this team more than every other team that I like combined. And for what? There is no hope. I’ve gotten upset when people like THCJ would point out the facts about this team because I didn’t want some asshole crushing my dreams. Now I can actually see that it wasn’t him doing it. It’s always been them, and it’s never going to stop. I don’t know how to root for another team, but I just don’t think I can root for this one anymore.

  47. JLam

    The writings on the wall
    This sucks.
    I dont want to read rumors why Knicks let Lin walk
    At least the Knicks should give a formal reason why Lin’s offer wasn’t matched like everyone was expecting

  48. Z

    Hudson River:

    Relative to Dolan contracts, this one is so much less egregious even though theres a good chance he regresses and becomes nothing.

    Don’t forget Jalen Rose ($17,000,000 in tax)

    Steve Francis ($15,000,000 in tax)

    Mo Taylor (who knows how much in tax??)

    Malik Rose, who over the 150 years he spent on the roster probably cost upwards of $20,000,000 in tax.

    Jared Jeffries ($25,000,000 in tax)

    Jerome James ($25,000,000 in tax)

    Randolph
    Crawford
    Curry
    Etc
    Etc
    Etc…

  49. Brian Cronin

    There are reports that Felton’s contract is 4Y/18M

    What?!? Where did you see that? Wow, at that money, he’d sure as fuck better not give a shit if he is the third-string point guard.

  50. SSS

    We can still pretend this is all a bad joke, right? At least for the next two days? I would very much like someone to lie to me and agree. Please.

  51. Brian Cronin

    We can still pretend this is all a bad joke, right? At least for the next two days? I would very much like someone to lie to me and agree. Please.

    I got myself to sleep yesterday by convincing myself that the Knicks were just going to run a two-point guard backcourt like the Mavs did in the 2011 NBA Finals, so I’m all about lying to myself to make me feel better about this shitshow.

  52. SSS

    Also, to continue my self-deception, if you were going to leak false information to the media, wouldn’t you do it through SAS too? It makes too much sense *not* to be true.

  53. SSS

    Brian Cronin: I got myself to sleep yesterday by convincing myself that the Knicks were just going to run a two-point guard backcourt like the Mavs did in the 2011 NBA Finals, so I’m all about lying to myself to make me feel better about this shitshow.

    Thank you. Full service blog.

  54. JK47

    Felton probably could have been had for the vet min, since he, you know, sucks.

    He’ll be 300 pounds by opening day with that 4-year contract.

    I think I might actually enjoy rooting against this team.

  55. Thomas B.

    I’m hoping they don’t match the offer. Nothing good ever comes from any dealings with the Houston Rockets. Thanks for the hot 10 games while everyone else was hurt Lin. Good luck in Texas.

  56. JK47

    When Lin puts up a .160+ WS/48 in Houston and Ray Felton plays like, well, Ray Felton, you better believe I will be here every day trolling this blog.

  57. SJK

    JK47:
    When Lin puts up a .160+ WS/48 in Houston and Ray Felton plays like, well, Ray Felton, you better believe I will be here every day trolling this blog.

    Why? You don’t have more of a right to be upset than anyone else on the team. I understand you’re upset, but taking away from the intellectual content of the blog by trolling really doesn’t do anyone any good. It’s not like any blogger made the decision to let Lin go; we’re almost all upset about it.

  58. d-mar

    Do you think Morey “poison pilled” the offer purely to fuck the Knicks or does he really really want Lin and wanted to make sure they wouldn’t match? I have nothing to back this up, but the Knicks may be convinced of the first scenario, and possibly want to scare Morey into thinking he’ll actually have to honor that absurd contract. Then at the 11th hour the Knicks will match.

    Just a theory.

  59. Brian Cronin

    I think Morey does want Lin and he and Lin mutually agreed to alter the contract so that Morey would have a better shot of getting Lin and Lin would get more money. Lin, of course, was fairly confident that the Knicks would match the new, increased offer (his coach saying they absolutely would match probably helped him think that).

  60. SSS

    d-mar: I have nothing to back this up, but the Knicks may be convinced of the first scenario, and possibly want to scare Morey into thinking he’ll actually have to honor that absurd contract. Then at the 11th hour the Knicks will match.

    This is exactly what I’ve been telling myself. Two long days to go.

  61. iserp

    Don’t you have the impression that if we match, Lin will be a bust; and if we don’t Lin will be a star?

    After all, it was such a small sample to judge Lin…

  62. formido

    It’s hard enough to be a GM assembling a team; no one’s going to waste any time playing risky pranks on other franchises.

  63. arthurprescott2

    iserp:
    Don’t you have the impression that if we match, Lin will be a bust; and if we don’t Lin will be a star?

    After all, it was such a small sample to judge Lin…

    NBA gods could not be that cruel. Right?

  64. SSS

    formido: It’s hard enough to be a GM assembling a team; no one’s going to waste any time playing risky pranks on other franchises.

    If you’re referring to the Rockets, I agree. If you’re referring to the Knicks, we’re talking about what Dolan may be doing, tot GMGG.

  65. Spree8nyk8

    We are all just a bunch of battered women covering up the bruises and telling the world how much this team loves us. Nothing more. You’ll stay and the beatings will not end.

  66. ephus

    Spree8nyk8:
    We are all just a bunch of battered women covering up the bruises and telling the world how much this team loves us.Nothing more.You’ll stay and the beatings will not end.

    Actually, I measure my self-worth by my ability to continue to love the Knicks despite all obstacles. I have never once fooled myself into believing that the Knicks love me.

    BTW, I do not think it would be idiotic for the Knicks to pass on Lin at this price, although I would bring him back. It’s idiotic if the Knicks had not prepared in advance for the contingency that the Rockets would make a max offer for year 3.

    The only time I was really tempted to forsake the Knicks was when Bernard King was shown the door for Sidney Green (an utterly forgettable power forward). I still want “30″ to hang from the rafters.

  67. Spree8nyk8

    yeah, but if there weren’t another 30 examples to give this might be a franchise worth fanning. We traded Marcus Camby and Nene for McDyess!

  68. daJudge

    Boyos, this can only happen in New York. First, the Knicks sign Jason Kidd. The plot is plausible as he will back up and mentor the young budding point guard, Jeremy Lin. But wait, Kidd’s judgement is so profoundly impaired that he gets a second DWI, because he couldn’t hire a freaking driver while partying hardy in the Hamptons. Sources report that he was attending a MADD fundraiser, featuring a speaker addressing how drinking foments domestic violence. Then Lin, who has always shown that he is a deeply religious man, tries to squeeze the Knicks for even more $$$$$, to redistribute same to the neediest. Surprise, surprise, management get’s pissed and pissy. But wait, all is not lost because Carmelo Gandhi comments, without a trace of irony, that Lin’s contract is kind of sort of exorbitant anyhow. Where is F. Scott Fitzgerald when you need him?

  69. StatsTeacher

    God I hate Stephen A. but he just said Houston was still very much in the mix for Howard. If they land Howard and Lin they will be fun to watch. If Lin has to play with that roster sans Howard — god — it will be just like his time at GS, not a single big man to run PnR — and the NY media will declare him a bust. I just think the Knicks are behaving very stupidly. Lose Lin, a guy who works out hours and hours everyday to sign the latest re-tread DWI guy. Looks very bad.

  70. BigBlueAL

    Before the off-season started we were all worried about possibly losing Lin if a team offered the type of contract the Rockets are now offering him.

    When they offered him the original deal we were all excited (as were the Knicks obviously) about the fairness of that deal. But now that they changed it and signed him to the type of deal we all fearedm initially now we are gonna freak out and act shocked if the Knicks let him go??

  71. JK47

    It doesn’t matter much for Lin’s stat line whether or not he has a great PnR partner. He’s one of the best iso players in the NBA, so he’ll probably put up some fat stat lines regardless of who is on the Rockets.

    Remember Linsanity?

  72. Brian Cronin

    Before the off-season started we were all worried about possibly losing Lin if a team offered the type of contract the Rockets are now offering him.

    I disagree. We were worried about a 4-year/$40 million deal. No one thought a 3-year/$25 million offer would dissuade the Knicks. Hahn has, like, two-three columns talking about how the contract is not a big deal. It is true that the 4-year/$28 million (with only 3 years/$19 million guaranteed) was a lot better than we expected, but I don’t think anyone thought 3-year/$25 million would dissuade them, especially since they were making jokes like “We’ll match up to $1 billion.”

  73. Frank

    As ridiculous as it sounds, I still think they match the offer. Here’s the reasoning:

    1) they very much should have expected this kind of offer when they started this whole process. So they no doubt have run the #s and knew how bad it would be in 15-16.
    2) if they were even considering not matching, then they should have engaged in S&T discussions like everyone has said. Grunwald seems far too competent a GM to be blindsided by something like this.

    The Felton thing throws this reasoning off, as well as the part about Dolan being our owner. But I agree with Chris Reina from REalGM who just tweeted: “I expect the Knicks to match Jeremy Lin’s offer sheet while creating as much collateral damage to the Rockets as possible in the process.”

    The fact that they are trying so hard to delay the process makes me also feel like they haven’t made their final decision yet.

    But even if they match, the honeymoon of Linsanity is so over.

    And who knows – if they don’t match and Lin turns out to be a no more than an average PG (remember, most of us were predicting eventual per-36 averages of ~15 points and 8 assists – not exactly Chris Paul territory), then this will actually have been the SMART move. Still hurts though.

  74. StatsTeacher

    Just watched a youtube to lift my spirits a bit. Lin needs at least one serviceable big to be really effective, but in Houston I think his stats will be fairly fat (between Linsanity and Woodsanity my early guess) with Howard, shit, they could be monstrous — but they have to play SA and OKC more often, no question OKC and SA will be rough on Lin — but they are rough on everybody.

    JK47:
    It doesn’t matter much for Lin’s stat line whether or not he has a great PnR partner. He’s one of the best iso players in the NBA, so he’ll probably put up some fat stat lines regardless of who is on the Rockets.

    Remember Linsanity?

  75. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin: I disagree. We were worried about a 4-year/$40 million deal. No one thought a 3-year/$25 million offer would dissuade the Knicks. Hahn has, like, two-three columns talking about how the contract is not a big deal. It is true that the 4-year/$28 million (with only 3 years/$19 million guaranteed) was a lot better than we expected, but I don’t think anyone thought 3-year/$25 million would dissuade them, especially since they were making jokes like “We’ll match up to $1 billion.”

    Yeah thats true, 4yr-40mil wouldve been the ultimate horrible deal.

    I guess Im just not that shocked that a contract having a poison pill would seriously make the Knicks think about not matching because that was the fear the whole time.

    Trust me if the original contract wouldve been signed and the Knicks were thinking of not matching I wouldve been the first one to complain but I guess once they changed it the last minute I can at least kinda understand the Knicks thinking and cant get as royally pissed off about it as most here are.

  76. formido

    I think many of us expected the big backloaded offer and expected the Knicks to match regardless…as they’ve been saying all along.

    Also, some of us think Lin has shown enough. Much as detractors want to focus on Linsanity, the Knicks were dominant under Woodson with Lin at point, I think for the reasons @ruruland sometimes talks about. He’s shown he can be part of a winner without needing to hog the ball. Honestly, my amazement at fans dismissal at that 8 game stretch never fades. The evidence that that lineup has contender potential is FAR greater than any evidence you could present for any other remotely feasible option the Knicks have. If that’s a small sample, it’s much better than a sample of 0 with a dash of speculation.

    BigBlueAL:
    Before the off-season started we were all worried about possibly losing Lin if a team offered the type of contract the Rockets are now offering him.

    When they offered him the original deal we were all excited (as were the Knicks obviously) about the fairness of that deal.But now that they changed it and signed him to the type of deal we all fearedm initially now we are gonna freak out and act shocked if the Knicks let him go??

  77. Brian Cronin

    I think many of us expected the big backloaded offer and expected the Knicks to match regardless…as they’ve been saying all along.

    I mean, you could argue that they just horribly miscalculated the market and thought Lin wouldn’t find a team willing to give him $8 million a year. But that seems hard to believe, right? I mean, $8 million a year for three years is like nothing in the NBA. So they had to know that this was a possibility, right? And they still let him go out there and get his deal, since they seemed so sure to match. Only then they didn’t.

  78. jon abbey

    Brian Cronin:
    Another thing I love is, “Let’s go to arbitration to win the right to not re-sign Jeremy Lin!”

    this isn’t fair, they were going to keep him under the initial terms, it seems. also, they kept Novak because of that ruling, and probably got one of Kidd/Camby too, right?

  79. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin: I mean, you could argue that they just horribly miscalculated the market and thought Lin wouldn’t find a team willing to give him $8 million a year. But that seems hard to believe, right? I mean, $8 million a year for three years is like nothing.

    If the Knicks were actually paying him 8mil a year for the 3 years you think they match?? I assume they definitely would, does the extra 3 mil a year next 2 years be as bad as the poison pill in year 3??

    Curious how different they would feel about the contract if it was spread out evenly instead of the way it is.

  80. jon abbey

    Brian Cronin: I mean, you could argue that they just horribly miscalculated the market and thought Lin wouldn’t find a team willing to give him $8 million a year. But that seems hard to believe, right? I mean, $8 million a year for three years is like nothing in the NBA. So they had to know that this was a possibility, right? And they still let him go out there and get his deal, since they seemed so sure to match. Only then they didn’t.

    I think they were surprised at how many pieces they could add, especially two PGs who may be better fits with the rest of the personnel.

    I am leaning towards thinking that it’s the right call to let Lin go. even resigning him and trying to trade him in December means another half season wasted for this team, since he’s not going to have any value sitting at home a la Marbury.

    Lin has a lot of basketball questions around him IMO, foremost his ability to stay on the floor healthy, which I have doubted from day 1. all of those fakes are really effective, but lead to excessively hard contact as the defender expects him to be somewhere totally different and eventually injury after injury (I think this is also an issue to a lesser extent for Rubio). as I said last year, if he can remodel his game after Tony Parker to avoid a lot of the contact he takes now, then I’d be much higher on him, but I think that’s too deeply rooted to change that drastically.

  81. Brian Cronin

    Right, Al, what I mean is that they had to realize that $8 million a year (which is what Houston is paying him) was going to be pretty darn easy for a team out there to offer, so they simply cannot be shocked that someone would make an offer like this. They had to be prepared for this, and yet it seems like they were not.

  82. PrecociousNeophyte

    What exactly did the Knicks expect when they spent weeks leaking to seemingly every reporter covering the NBA they would match any offer? They even had their coach running around proclaiming Lin the starting PG before receiving an offer sheet.

    We have seen in the last 24 hours that when this team wants to keep something secret, they can. So what was the motivation for essentially taunting the rest of the league?

  83. Brian Cronin

    JR Smith joins in:

    “I’m sure the city would love to have him back, but the team decided to go in a different direction,” Smith said. “It’s nothing personal, I don’t think, just business. We just hope everybody can benefit from here. I don’t really know how Mr. Dolan feels at this point with what the luxury tax is now and what it used to be, but I just hope it works out the best for both of them.”

    and

    Asked if Lin’s contract could cause a challenging dynamic with his teammates, Smith agreed.
    “Without a doubt,” he said. “I think some guys take it personal, because they’ve been doing it longer and haven’t received any reward for it yet. I think it’s a tough subject to touch on for a lot of guys.”

  84. arthurprescott2

    Brian Cronin:
    JR Smith joins in:

    Let Lin go then. No point having him around when it creates a mess in the locker room, right?

    JR was probably talking about his own deal (he did get a bad deal – he was looking for a LOT more).

  85. Brian Cronin

    I think they were surprised at how many pieces they could add, especially two PGs who may be better fits with the rest of the personnel.

    Raymond Felton is not a better fit for this personnel than Lin. They both played their best ball under D’Antoni, only Lin was much better.

    Plus, Lin was good under Woodson. 7-1 under Woodson, while being a key member of the offense. You yourself noted how many times the team needed Lin to step up to win a game (like against Indy).

  86. Brian Cronin

    JR was probably talking about his own deal (he did get a bad deal – he was looking for a LOT more).

    Yeah, it is pretty hilarious when there’s only one guy on the team that hasn’t had a major payday and it’s him and he acts like “some guys” are taking it personally that Lin is making more than they (read “him”) ever did.

  87. Brian Cronin

    Of the Knicks on the team that have been in the league longer than Lin, only Smith, Novak and now Felton, I guess, have never more than Lin is making (and Felton was right there – he was making $7 million). Unless James White counts, of course.

  88. Brian Cronin

    The Suns get Scola. Obviously, getting Scola so cheap is a good pick-up, but now Beasley has to play the 3, which I don’t think he’s really suited to playing.

  89. Z

    Spree8nyk8:
    We are all just a bunch of battered women covering up the bruises and telling the world how much this team loves us.Nothing more.You’ll stay and the beatings will not end.

    I was going to post something about Stockholm Syndrome earlier. But I like this metaphor much more.

  90. JK47

    Felton and Kidd are “better fits” for the team if you think mediocre/bad players are better than good players. Me, I like to have guys who are good at throwing the ball into the basket.

  91. johnlocke

    Good article by Ian. But as he even stated, Dolan is making this decision and in spite of all his faults (some would argue it’s one of his faults) the guy really seems to value loyalty and Lin’s sly/shady maneuvering probably has just as much to do w/ his current thinking as the luxury tax implications. I don’t think anyone knows, despite all these sources saying crap, beside Dolan and he may not even know what he wants to do yet. Right now, he’s pissed and needs a few days to calm down. We’ll find out what happens on Tues.

    BigBlueAL:
    Holy crap, Ian O’Connor is on our side!!

    http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/8168735/ian-oconnor-new-york-knicks-match-houston-rockets-offer-jeremy-lin

  92. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, I saw that one. The weird thing about Smith is that how could he possibly give a shit one way or the other about Lin? They barely played together, right?

  93. Brian Cronin

    Also, if you go by Twitter, Alan Hahn is, like, the only Knick beat guy who doesn’t seem to be actively trolling people. Beck, too, but he’s no longer the Knick beat guy.

  94. ess-dog

    I think ultimately the Knicks will match and the Felton thing is just a “cover your bases” move. There are many things they could be thinking:

    -they like Kidd more at sg and/or don’t think he can log many minutes
    -they like Felton’s history with Amare
    -maybe they don’t think Prig will pan out
    -maybe they don’t ever want to get caught pg-less again after last season, especially with 2 guards coming off knee injuries

    These are all very practical, non-conspiracy, non-Dolan thoughts. There is so much antithetical thinking with letting him go. If Lin is a goldmine of yuan, wouldn’t Dolan want to have him succeed as a starter? Seriously, he will start the All Star game if he starts, stays healthy and is above average. Two, wasn’t Kidd specifically supposed to mentor him, which would sort of prove my prior point?

    As an aside, JR Smith is an ASS for making those comments.

    I think this is a case of Morey making a “smart” move by putting out a fake offer so that the Knicks would overspend and then get caught in a tax nightmare.

    Maybe there is some grumbling about Lin being a traitor, but I’m sure he’s relatively naive about the GM business and he just saw a bigger contract and said “OK!” like anyone would. I’m sure he was told the Knicks would match and why shouldn’t he get what he can? It’s sort of um, ironic that Melo would lament an oversized contract offer.

    None of these clowns can denigrate a free market system, not Dolan, Stat, Melo, etc.

  95. Ben R

    Did anyone catch Melo saying that 25 million is ridiculous. Both Melo and Amare will make almost 25 million in the 14/15 season alone. Also Melo in his first 5 years in the league made over 28 million dollars, four years of which he was on a rookie contract, Lin will have made just over 26 million. 25 million is a little over 8 million a year which is on par with other starting PGs; Harris, Conley, Nelson, etc.

    I think there is some closet racism in the comments from the media adn other players about Lin getting overpaid, being overrated, being just a flash in the pan. You see the hype around players like Wall and Irving and Rose as young players and it’s like destiny they will be stars but with Lin its always wait and see and excuses to why he succeeds rather than just admitting that he is a highly promising young player.

  96. StatsTeacher

    Lin signed the ONLY offer sheet actually presented to him. Knicks could have made an offer, instead they fumble fucked, said they’d “test the market” and in the meantime, Lin has to withdraw from the Select Team (quite an honor to be chosen, actually). The Knicks blew this thing, not Lin, IMHO.

    ess-dog:
    I think ultimately the Knicks will match and the Felton thing is just a “cover your bases” move.There are many things they could be thinking:

    -they like Kidd more at sg and/or don’t think he can log many minutes
    -they like Felton’s history with Amare
    -maybe they don’t think Prig will pan out
    -maybe they don’t ever want to get caught pg-less again after last season, especially with 2 guards coming off knee injuries

    These are all very practical, non-conspiracy, non-Dolan thoughts.There is so much antithetical thinking with letting him go.If Lin is a goldmine of yuan, wouldn’t Dolan want to have him succeed as a starter?Seriously, he will start the All Star game if he starts, stays healthy and is above average.Two, wasn’t Kidd specifically supposed to mentor him, which would sort of prove my prior point?

    As an aside, JR Smith is an ASS for making those comments.

    I think this is a case of Morey making a “smart” move by putting out a fake offer so that the Knicks would overspend and then get caught in a tax nightmare.

    Maybe there is some grumbling about Lin being a traitor, but I’m sure he’s relatively naive about the GM business and he just saw a bigger contract and said “OK!” like anyone would.I’m sure he was told the Knicks would match and why shouldn’t he get what he can?It’s sort of um, ironic that Melo would lament an oversized contract offer.

    None of these clowns can denigrate a free market system, not Dolan, Stat, Melo, etc.

  97. Brian Cronin

    Well, I think it is fair to say that if Lin’s ultimate goal was to be a Knick next season while making a goodly amoung of money than he did, indeed, blow it a bit. If he’s fine with being a Rocket or a Knick, then he played it fine.

  98. DRed

    I think they were surprised at how many pieces they could add, especially two PGs who may be better fits with the rest of the personnel.

    How is Ray Felton a better fit than Lin? Felton is worse statistically in most categories. He’s also older and got really fat and is coming off one of the worst seasons of his career. When you said Baron Davis was a great pickup because he lead the league in points off assists you were ignoring a lot of other negatives, but there was at least some evidence that Davis was good at something, and it’s not like we had better options. But now? Skinny Felton was okay in D’Antoni’s system. D’Antoni’s gone. And he still wasn’t better than Lin.

    This is absolutely indefensible as a basketball move. Lin could very easily be traded on this contract after a year. Instead, we let him walk for nothing and you think that’s the smart move?

  99. Brian Cronin

    I think there is some closet racism in the comments from the media adn other players about Lin getting overpaid, being overrated, being just a flash in the pan. You see the hype around players like Wall and Irving and Rose as young players and it’s like destiny they will be stars but with Lin its always wait and see and excuses to why he succeeds rather than just admitting that he is a highly promising young player.

    I think there’s a very good chance you’re correct, but racism is also what made Lin such a media sensation. “Oh look, an Asian guy who is great at basketball!” And racism certainly plays a role in many of the people who frame this as a Lin vs. Melo debate, with Melo’s race being a major factor.

  100. garfangle

    Also, it was dumb of the Knicks to let the Rockets dictate the structure of a contract that the publicly said they would match. Why not offer a comparable deal to Lin that was cap-friendly?

    StatsTeacher:
    Lin signed the ONLY offer sheet actually presented to him.Knicks could have made an offer, instead they fumble fucked, said they’d “test the market” and in the meantime, Lin has to withdraw from the Select Team (quite an honor to be chosen, actually).The Knicks blew this thing, not Lin, IMHO.

  101. Brian Cronin

    The Knicks’ best offer was always going to be less than what Lin could get on the open market. That’s why they let him see what he could get out on the open market. Then he got it and, well, the wheels came off…

  102. StatsTeacher

    Not knowing Lin’s intentions, this, of course, is possible. I am just in shock that the Knicks seem to be pissed that Lin got a lucrative contract offer. How could they POSSIBLY not see this coming? Landry Fields got a $20 mil offer! I’ll stick with the theory that the Knicks FO is brain-dead until proven otherwise. . . . . .

    Brian Cronin:
    Well, I think it is fair to say that if Lin’s ultimate goal was to be a Knick next season while making a goodly amoung of money than he did, indeed, blow it a bit. If he’s fine with being a Rocket or a Knick, then he played it fine.

  103. JC Knickfan

    Good for Jeffries – question does Kurt Thomas have anything left in him.

    I did like him when he play on Knicks.

  104. StatsTeacher

    But if Lin then signed the Houston offer over the Knicks ~ 5/5.2/6/6 cap friendly offer the claim could be made that Lin “chose money over Knicks” which every NBA player does every year. BUT given that no such offer was made, the Knicks painted themselves into a corner as if they never played poker. Well they did play poker, they just put all their cards on the table and then continued to play. Quite idiotically it would seem.

    Brian Cronin:
    The Knicks’ best offer was always going to be less than what Lin could get on the open market. That’s why they let him see what he could get out on the open market. Then he got it and, well, the wheels came off…

  105. ess-dog

    IDK, I think the Knicks played it the way you’re supposed to- let the market dictate. Almost all teams do this. And isn’t this the offer we all expected? I mean, it could’ve been 4 years right? As Statsteacher noted, there is desperation everywhere… 20 mil for Fields after an abysmal season?

    And every thing we’re hearing from the media about the Knicks being mad, Lin being mad, the knicks not matching…. this is still all just hearsay.

    I just think we paid too much for Felton. Jeffries, 4 mil a year for 4 years AND our new greek eurostash?

  106. ephus

    Many here are saying that Lin could easily be moved on this deal – but let’s take a closer look.

    At 3 years/$25 million, Mike Conley is the closest comp that I can find. Rodney Stuckey is another $8 million/year PG. Jameer Nelson had a similar contract before he opted out. Aaron Afflalo is a SG, but with a similar contract. Caron Butler is also on a $8 million/year contract. Do you think the Knicks could trade Lin straight up for any of these five? Since Lin could not be traded until Jan. 15, I think the only safe thing to say is that it all depends on how he performs during that period.

  107. JK47

    Chris Paul could easily create a D12-esque “trade me to the Knicks” demand and the Knicks could put a pretty nice offer together– Lin, Shump, Novak, etc. But without Lin, fuhgedaboutit. An older Kidd and a fatter Felton are your PGs for the forseeable future.

    This team sucks.

  108. arthurprescott2

    JK47:
    Chris Paul could easily create a D12-esque “trade me to the Knicks” demand and the Knicks could put a pretty nice offer together– Lin, Shump, Novak, etc.But without Lin, fuhgedaboutit. An older Kidd and a fatter Felton are your PGs for the forseeable future.

    This team sucks.

    What’s the likelihood of that happening? Don’t get our hopes up, man.

  109. 2FOR18

    The worst thing about this is all of the leaks/quotes by the CAA mob about Lin being a greedy prima donna.
    Really? melo is going to talk shit about Lin’s contract after the money he’s made and the shit he’s pulled?
    And what the fuk has JR Smith ever done?
    There was even a leak about Lin trying to steal one of the player’s girlfriends. Are you freakin serious?
    A political hatchet job is being perpetrated against Lin. After over 30 years of sucker punches, I will start following hockey again until this crew isn’t running the team anymore.

  110. StatsTeacher

    The “Win now” approach, I believe, would be to match for Lin, keep him through 2 years and waive him prior to year 3 if he can’t be traded. Still have to pay him, get out of the lux. tax hit though. And that is assuming that he can’t be traded over the next few years, which not known right now. I can’t comment on Felton — haven’t really watched him. ESPN says they have similar numbers. I won’t be watching a Felton led team unless I read they are “really good and fun to watch.”

    As I typed that, I threw up in my mouth a little. Good luck!!

    ephus:
    Many here are saying that Lin could easily be moved on this deal – but let’s take a closer look.

    At 3 years/$25 million, Mike Conley is the closest comp that I can find.Rodney Stuckey is another $8 million/year PG.Jameer Nelson had a similar contract before he opted out.Aaron Afflalo is a SG, but with a similar contract.Caron Butler is also on a $8 million/year contract.Do you think the Knicks could trade Lin straight up for any of these five?Since Lin could not be traded until Jan. 15, I think the only safe thing to say is that it all depends on how he performs during that period.

  111. JK47

    Felton and Lin have similar numbers, only Lin has a 60 point edge in TS% and triples Felton’s WS/48. Felton does have about a 100 point weight advantage, so I guess overall it’s a wash.

  112. StatsTeacher

    I may be wrong about waived players re lux. tax. But I thought a waived player can be taken off the following year’s cap vs. an amnestied (which is only one time) is immediate. I can’t go back to the Coon faq again though, it’s too complicated! I do wish the actual CBA would be posted, still not anywhere that I have seen.

  113. SharKuz

    The mathematician Pascal was once asked why as a man of science he would choose to believe in god. His answer has always stuck with me. He said that he simply chose to believe because he lost nothing by having faith if he was wrong, but gained everything if he was right.

    This situation is remarkably similar as far as the Knicks gain nothing but losing Lin, but could potentially have so many options for success with him. Unfortunately it doesn’t appear that we have the wisdom to learn from that kind of lesson.

  114. StatsTeacher

    I am atheist and a math teacher, but in this situation, agreed!

    SharKuz:
    The mathematician Pascal was once asked why as a man of science he would choose to believe in god. His answer has always stuck with me.He said that he simply chose to believe because he lost nothing by having faith if he was wrong, but gained everything if he was right.

    This situation is remarkably similar as far as the Knicks gain nothing but losing Lin, but could potentially have so many options for success with him.Unfortunately it doesn’t appear that we have the wisdom to learn from that kind of lesson.

  115. cgreene

    With the media mess and his teammates talking shit there is no way the Knicks are matching. This is toxic. It’s over.

  116. JK47

    Ruru is conspicuous in his absence today. I want to hear how Lin leaving is good news for the Knicks and how we’re still a championship contender and a lock to win 55 games.

  117. ephus

    JK47:
    Chris Paul could easily create a D12-esque “trade me to the Knicks” demand and the Knicks could put a pretty nice offer together– Lin, Shump, Novak, etc.But without Lin, fuhgedaboutit. An older Kidd and a fatter Felton are your PGs for the forseeable future.

    This team sucks.

    Unfortunately, the Sign-and-Trade for Chris Paul would be virtually impossible, even if the Knicks have Lin, unless the Clippers take one of Stat (Clippers are not doing it), Melo (Dolan is not doing it) or Chandler (only if the Clippers decide to move DeAndre Young). Starting in 2013-14, any team that is over the Apron cannot receive a player in a Sign-and-Trade. Stat/Melo/Chandler/Paul would be $75.9 million on their own, which is likely over the tax line already.

  118. 2FOR18

    JK47:
    Ruru is conspicuous in his absence today. I want to hear how Lin leaving is good news for the Knicks and how we’re still a championship contender and a lock to win 55 games.

    ruru is laughing his ass off right now.

  119. StatsTeacher

    DeAndre Jordan, right?

    ephus: Unfortunately, the Sign-and-Trade for Chris Paul would be virtually impossible, even if the Knicks have Lin, unless the Clippers take one of Stat (Clippers are not doing it), Melo (Dolan is not doing it) or Chandler (only if the Clippers decide to move DeAndre Young).Starting in 2013-14, any team that is over the Apron cannot receive a player in a Sign-and-Trade.Stat/Melo/Chandler/Paul would be $75.9 million on their own, which is likely over the tax line already.

  120. outoftowner

    In an alternate universe, the Knicks could easily have had a young, well rounded, rootable starting lineup of Lin, Shump, Gallinari, Lee, and Chandler. Instead we’ll become a retirement community for disgruntled and overpaid NBA vets. I might go the NBA widow route.

  121. daJudge

    Pretty simple, the teammates who can’t shut the F up are jealous. It’s amazing to me that folks who are so lucky in life (including Lin) can be so self-centered. However it plays out, it’s really shitty. I was excited about this year and the air is out of the balloon big time. It’s just as well; I spend way too much time on this stuff, these jerks and their BS. Endemic nonsense.

  122. SeeWhyDee77

    SharKuz:
    The mathematician Pascal was once asked why as a man of science he would choose to believe in god. His answer has always stuck with me.He said that he simply chose to believe because he lost nothing by having faith if he was wrong, but gained everything if he was right.

    This situation is remarkably similar as far as the Knicks gain nothing but losing Lin, but could potentially have so many options for success with him.Unfortunately it doesn’t appear that we have the wisdom to learn from that kind of lesson.

    nice

  123. bobneptune

    Brian Cronin:
    Well, I think it is fair to say that if Lin’s ultimate goal was to be a Knick next season while making a goodly amoung of money than he did, indeed, blow it a bit. If he’s fine with being a Rocket or a Knick, then he played it fine.

    the man is going to get paid $15,000,000 in 2 years while he was sleeping on his brother’s couch 6 months ago. he’d rightfully be happy playing hoops on the north slope of alaska at that price.

    of course he’s fine being a rocket. for a supposed cosmopolitan town , we think pretty provincially when it come to our sports teams.

  124. Z-man

    Wow, the level of delusional thinking about Lin is mind-boggling. People seem to forget that the reality of Linsanity has lots of caveats, particularly on the defensive end. Please check the game logs and box scores carefully. After the initial novelty wore off, he got abused by Rondo, Deron, Parker, Calderon, Chalmers and a rehabbing Derrick Rose. He was outplayed by Jennings. He played 38yo Kidd evenly in the return game. In 25 games, he had 11 games with 6 or more turnovers. Deron, Rondo and Chalmers, and soon Rose, will all eat Lin for lunch for the life of his contract. They will no doubt do the same to Felton, but to say that Lin is the difference between us being a watchable, rootable team and us sucking is so over the top, it’s laughable.

    JK47, I have no problem with you trolling this site every day if Lin becomes an all-star in Houston while Felton eats his way out of the league. But if the opposite happens, If Lin is exposed as a flash-in-the-pan bottom half or worse PG, or misses most of the next 3 years due to getting drilled to the hardwood every time he drives to the rim, will you come on and apologize every day for being so wrong?

  125. 2FOR18

    Z-man:
    Wow, the level of delusional thinking about Lin is mind-boggling.People seem to forget that the reality of Linsanity has lots of caveats, particularly on the defensive end.Please check the game logs and box scores carefully. After the initial novelty wore off, he got abused by Rondo, Deron, Parker, Calderon, Chalmers and a rehabbing Derrick Rose. He was outplayed by Jennings.He played 38yo Kidd evenly in the return game. In 25 games, he had 11 games with 6 or more turnovers. Deron, Rondo and Chalmers, and soon Rose, will all eat Lin for lunch for the life of his contract.They will no doubt do the same to Felton, but to say that Lin is the difference between us being a watchable, rootable team and us sucking is so over the top, it’s laughable.

    JK47, I have no problem with you trolling this site every day if Lin becomes an all-star in Houston while Felton eats his way out of the league. But if the opposite happens, If Lin is exposed as a flash-in-the-pan bottom half or worse PG, or misses most of the next 3 years due to getting drilled to the hardwood every time he drives to the rim, will you come on and apologize every day for being so wrong?

    If you fee comfortable rooting for Felton and Kidd dumping the ball into melo on the right elbow for the next 3 years, then good for you.

  126. SharKuz

    Yeah z-man, shame on us for thinking that a player could improve after 25 starts. We are super dumb.

  127. Z-man

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/feltora01/gamelog/2011/

    JK47, tke a look at Felton’s game logs from games #11-#35. Compare them to Lin’s 25-game stretch as a starter. Then the novelty of Felton started wearing off and he started to break down physically due to overuse (D’Antoni, need I say more?) Sound familiar?

    If Lin never got hurt, we probably still finish 18-6 and get clobbered by the Heat. The difference is, Lin would have been exposed, same way he was exposed by them earlier, and the same way Landry Fields was exposed in the playoffs by the Celtics. Why is nobody crying over him not being matched? You wouldn’t have predicted that after Field’s first 25 games, when people were comparing him to all-time greats. Go back and read the Melo trade chatter and see how many folks here liked him more than Felton, Chandler, and even Gallo, and would have “jumped ship” if Fields was included in that deal. In retrospect, Fields was the least valuable of any of them.

  128. Z-man

    2FOR18: If you fee comfortable rooting for Felton and Kidd dumping the ball into melo on the right elbow for the next 3 years, then good for you.

    I root for the laundry, bud, and have been for nearly 50 years. I rooted for them dumping the ball into Ewing and before him Bernard King. As long as they win, I don’t care how they do it. No team offended purists more than the late ’90s Knicks, yet I was riveted by every minute of the Heat-Knicks and Heat-Pacers playoffs.

  129. Z-man

    SharKuz: Yeah z-man, shame on us for thinking that a player could improve after 25 starts. We are super dumb.

    When it’s your $70million, you can be as dumb as you want. The odds are at least 50-50 that Lin will be what he was against Rondo, Parker, Deron and Chalmers…a middling PG that will lose you as many games as he wins you, especially on D.

  130. d-mar

    Look, I’d probably be happier if we matched, it’s not my money. But this attitude of “that’s it, let me find another team to root for” by some is just crazy. And the idea that we’ve gone from a contender to the NY Hawks because we may not have Jeremy Lin to run the point? C’mon.

    And you know, as Z-man pointed out, not only had the league started to figure him out a little (let him go left, pick him up at half court) but the referees did also. How many times once Linsanity wore off did we see him sprawled in the lane crying for a foul and the referees ignoring it? I loved the Lin story and Linsanity was a really fun time to be a Knick fan, but can we please not act like the Knicks let Clyde Frazier go? It’s not the end of the world, folks.

  131. Brian Cronin

    Lin played well during Woodson’s 7-1 start and the team looked amazing. That’s not Linsanity and that team looked like it could compete for a championship. That’s what we lose with this.

    Of course I’m not going to stop rooting for the Knicks, but continuing to root for the Knicks doesn’t mean we don’t acknowledge when they fuck up. We’ve been following Knick fuck-ups for years now on this blog.

  132. BigBlueAL

    Im with Z-man and d-mar but I cant fault those who are so passionate about this either. Its why I love this site and those I follow on Twitter because since I live in Miami this is the only way I can interact with die-hard Knick fans.

    However when I read about people talking about not going to any games this season despite already having paid for their season tickets for the upcoming season Im like shit you suck. Ive NEVER been to a Knick game at MSG (only watched them play the Heat down here) and I would freaking die to be able to go to any Knick game period at MSG especially when this team is still going to be pretty good next season.

    But again I dont like to tell people how to root for their team and we went through this already after the Melo trade so it does become a tiresome subject. I just hope that this site doesnt become as anti-Knicks as I fear it will be next season even while they have what I still hope/think will be a very good season.

  133. SharKuz

    Wow for a group of people that likes to say that you can’t use Lin’s small sample size to become great, you sure don’t seem to have a problem with using a portion of that small sample size to say that he won’t be.

    How does it make any sense to do that? To say you can’t judge off 25 games but if you look at what happened in these 4 or 5 games you can totally judge. Please keep in mind that the majority of those games came back when we had a coach that was unable to adapt to teams that were locked in on how to stop us. In the Miami game it was evident early on that Miami was not going to have a problem guarding our pick and roll, but we just kept on running it over and over again. Is that on Lin? Or is that on the coach? I mean I really don’t know if he was gonna be average, or above average, a star, or a flop. But I do know that the little I saw made me wanna see more. And yeah, he would have probably had some bad games in the future, but Melo had a 1 pt game last year too didn’t he? Why can Melo have a bad game but a young player just starting out can’t?

  134. Z-man

    My odds on the other 50%: 20% that he becomes a fringe all-star and 20% that he regresses to a liability as a starter, 5% that he becomes a top-5 PG, 5% he can’t cut it as a full-time starter at all. I would guess that Grunwald is thinking the same way, as is Dolan. Why should they pay upwards of $20 million a year (including luxury tax) on a player that has a 70% chance of not playing at a level that justifies such a sum?

  135. TheRant

    JC Knickfan: Good for Jeffries – question does Kurt Thomas have anything left in him.

    I did like him when he play on Knicks.

    I’ve always loved “Ol’ Bug Eyes,” but he’s almost as old as I am. The good news is he has literally run 50,000 pick and rolls in his lifetime. The bad news is the same.

  136. JK47

    Yes, let’s cherry-pick 25 Ray Felton games out of the giant ocean of suck that is the rest of his career and pretend it means something.

    Jeremy Lin lit up the league the first time he got extended minutes. Ray Felton has sucked for the vast majority of his career.

  137. StatsTeacher

    +1. On NBATV Sam Mitchell is saying that Lin doesn’t fit Woodson’s system, and Marc Spears of Yahoo says Lin matches Houston more. I disagree with this, and believe that Lin as the Knicks 1 next year would mean a #2 seed in the East. Z-man has probably watched more bball than I have, but I think this will play itself out as a huge mistake over the next few years. Lin’s stats over his entire 25 game starting run Linsanity/Woodsanity whatever all revealed that he was legit. His low production games were simply because he did not play (Woodson’s 1st game e.g. vs Portland) much due to blowouts/low minutes.

    Brian Cronin:
    Lin played well during Woodson’s 7-1 start and the team looked amazing. That’s not Linsanity and that team looked like it could compete for a championship. That’s what we lose with this.

    Of course I’m not going to stop rooting for the Knicks, but continuing to root for the Knicks doesn’t mean we don’t acknowledge when they fuck up. We’ve been following Knick fuck-ups for years now on this blog.

  138. Z-man

    SharKuz: Wow for a group of people that likes to say that you can’t use Lin’s small sample size to become great, you sure don’t seem to have a problem with using a portion of that small sample size to say that he won’t be. How does it make any sense to do that? To say you can’t judge off 25 games but if you look at what happened in these 4 or 5 games you can totally judge. Please keep in mind that the majority of those games came back when we had a coach that was unable to adapt to teams that were locked in on how to stop us. In the Miami game it was evident early on that Miami was not going to have a problem guarding our pick and roll, but we just kept on running it over and over again. Is that on Lin? Or is that on the coach? I mean I really don’t know if he was gonna be average, or above average, a star, or a flop. But I do know that the little I saw made me wanna see more. And yeah, he would have probably had some bad games in the future, but Melo had a 1 pt game last year too didn’t he? Why can Melo have a bad game but a young player just starting out can’t?

    Look, I was looking forward to Lin being given a shot, and I wish we could sign him as well. If you read what I said carefully, you will find that at no point do I say that Lin will never be good. What I said, over and over, is that the risk of him not being as good as you think he will be is high enough to justify making a basketball/business decision to not match this contract, given the luxury tax implications. You and others act like he is a sure-fire star that is our only hope for a rootable team.

  139. SharKuz

    No, I don’t act like he’s anything because I don’t know what he is. I know only one thing about what he is, and that is that he is a young player with potential on a team lacking young players with potential. And that he is one of the few trade assets that we would have. His contract is completely trade worthy to I’m sure quite a few teams who would be willing to gamble that the money he generates would offset the cost of the risk. If we are already capped out why give away anything for free, let alone something with actual value. And people always talk about how this is a business, well in business you don’t really set the value of what you have, that value is set by what other people are willing to give you for it. And I’m pretty sure that in a worst case scenario we would be able to move him elsewhere for something in return, as opposed to the nothing we are going to get now.

  140. DRed

    Z-man: Look, I was looking forward to Lin being given a shot, and I wish we could sign him as well. If you read what I said carefully, you will find that at no point do I say that Lin will never be good.What I said, over and over, is that the risk of him not being as good as you think he will be is high enough to justify making a basketball/business decision to not match this contract, given the luxury tax implications. You and others act like he is a sure-fire star that is our only hope for a rootable team.

    Or we could, like, trade him. There’s very little risk-we’re already hamstrung by Carmelo, Stat and Chandler’s deals. It’s not like we wont’ be able to sign some new superstar if we sign Lin. Instead we’re just letting him go for nothing. That’s what’s so disappointing. Lin has more upside than anyone on the roster except for maybe Shump. With everyone else, we know what we’re going to get, and that’s an early playoff exit and Carmelo whining about how it was all someone else’s fault (again).

  141. Will the Thrill

    For the people who don’t mind Lin leaving…You have no problem with not signing him and looking for a trade????? Even if the luxury tax is too much for Dolan (bullshit), I don’t see how anyone can think just letting him go for nothing is a smart move. And who knows, he might end up actually improving as he gets more experience!

  142. 2FOR18

    Z-man: I root for the laundry, bud, and have been for nearly 50 years. I rooted for them dumping the ball into Ewing and before him Bernard King.As long as they win, I don’t care how they do it. No team offended purists more than the late ’90s Knicks, yet I was riveted by every minute of the Heat-Knicks and Heat-Pacers playoffs.

    Well you experienced 2 championships so your nuts can probably handle some more kicks, but I don’t think I can deal with this anymore. I was lucky enough to have 2 early Yankee championships to get me through the 80′s and early 90′s.
    Going from the promise of Lin to “Ray Felton Part Deux, Now It’s Personal”? Did you see the clip of him threatening to drop 50 on his doubters?

  143. BigBlueAL

    I find it funny that people say whats the risk of signing Lin if he sucks then just trade him.

  144. Z-man

    Brian Cronin: Lin played well during Woodson’s 7-1 start and the team looked amazing. That’s not Linsanity and that team looked like it could compete for a championship. That’s what we lose with this.

    Look carefully, Brian, this is a very rose-colored assessment. the only wins in that stretch vs. playoff teams were Indiana twice and Philly; not a single one of those games matched Lin up with a top-10 PG. He had 6 or less assists in all but one of those games, shot 5-17 from 3, and finally broke down from the pounding he was taking.

    After he went down, they went 12-5, with a hobbling starting PG and an embalmed back-up. Four of the five losses were to playoff teams and the only home loss was to the Heat.

  145. SharKuz

    BigBlueAL:
    I find it funny that people say whats the risk of signing Lin if he sucks then just trade him.

    Why is it funny? It’s true. I mean even if for some reason he was so bad that he became unmoveable his contract expires with everyone elses contract, so where exactly is the risk? We are capped out with or without him, so saving that money doesn’t really open any extra options for us unless you are aware of something I’m not.

  146. Brian Cronin

    Look carefully, Brian, this is a very rose-colored assessment. the only wins in that stretch vs. playoff teams were Indiana twice and Philly; not a single one of those games matched Lin up with a top-10 PG. He had 6 or less assists in all but one of those games, shot 5-17 from 3, and finally broke down from the pounding he was taking.

    After he went down, they went 12-5, with a hobbling starting PG and an embalmed back-up. Four of the five losses were to playoff teams and the only home loss was to the Heat.

    Look carefully? They’re the only games they played with the full lineup with Woodson. And they were awesome. Maybe they would have played more and he would have been terrible. But talk about reaching. “Maybe they would have later been bad.” You’re going to have to explain why. What did you possibly see in those eight games that didn’t look sustainable? Heck, Melo shot awfully during that stretch while taking the most shots on the team, so they were likely not even as good as they could have been!

    And they gave that up. Which sucks.

  147. BigBlueAL

    SharKuz: Why is it funny?It’s true.I mean even if for some reason he was so bad that he became unmoveable his contract expires with everyone elses contract, so where exactly is the risk?We are capped out with or without him, so saving that money doesn’t really open any extra options for us unless you are aware of something I’m not.

    Thats different than saying who cares if he sucks then just trade him as if every team would want to trade for him.

    I agree that the length of the contract isnt a big deal at all and fits right in with the rest of the team and having a TON of cap space in the summer of 2015. But if the Knicks really dont want to pay him in year 3 and he sucks the easy solution is not just trade him before then so you dont have to pay him because why would any other team want a 15 mil bust unless obviously they want the cap space but in that case it would be beneficial to the Knicks as well to just let him leave after 2015 since they would really have a lot of cap space.

  148. Brian Cronin

    Why is it funny? It’s true. I mean even if for some reason he was so bad that he became unmoveable his contract expires with everyone elses contract, so where exactly is the risk? We are capped out with or without him, so saving that money doesn’t really open any extra options for us unless you are aware of something I’m not.

    Exactly. Don’t get me wrong, like I’ve said before, whatever, it’s not my millions. If Dolan wants to become fiscally responsible a dozen years into his tenure as owner of the Knicks, then whatever. Fair enough. But that just means he’s one of those owners who sacrifices the on the court product to save money. That’s fair, I guess. Robert Sarver did the same thing with the Phoenix Suns. It certainly isn’t out of the ordinary. So sure, if Dolan doesn’t want to spend the money, okay. I can accept “I don’t want to spend gazillions anymore.” I can’t accept “this does not hurt the team.” Because it does.

  149. DRed

    BigBlueAL:
    I find it funny that people say whats the risk of signing Lin if he sucks then just trade him.

    Yes, a rose colored 7-1. After all, we only beat playoff teams in 3 out of those 8 games. I bet if we’d had a better point guard we could have even gone 8-0. Logically, therefore, the smart play is to replace Lin with fat Ray Felton, a player who is both worse and older. But don’t worry-Mike Woodson runs a magic system that works best with a shitty point guard. Honestly, some of you have completely lost the plot here. Lin is much more likely to be better than Ray Felton. The only problem with the deal is that Guitar Jimmy is going to possibly have to waste a lot of money 3 years from now. What’s the downside to that?

  150. Brian Cronin

    Also, I don’t think it is fair to turn this into a ripping on Melo thing. This isn’t Melo. Yes, Melo should just stick with “no comment” because he does not do a great job getting his point across when he’s talking with reporters, but that goes for many pro athletes. Otherwise, I don’t think this has anything to do with Melo, so we shouldn’t rip Melo because of Dolan’s decision.

  151. Z-man

    It opens $40-50 million in bank account for Dolan. Yes, he’s pissed away more money than that a dozen times over, but that doesn’t make it any smarter to do it this time.

    I think Count de Pennies summed it up perfectly on the last thread: meh.

    Look, maybe you and some others can offer Dolan to pay the tax. All you would need is to find 40,000 people that would pay $1,000 each to keep Lin here.

  152. MeloDrama

    Z-man:
    My odds on the other 50%: 20% that he becomes a fringe all-star and 20% that he regresses to a liability as a starter, 5% that he becomes a top-5 PG, 5% he can’t cut it as a full-time starter at all. I would guess that Grunwald is thinking the same way, as is Dolan. Why should they pay upwards of $20 million a year (including luxury tax) on a player that has a 70% chance of not playing at a level that justifies such a sum?

    If this were Grunwald’s call based on the above numbers, then they don’t let Lin go to RFA without an offer and they actively explore trades, understanding that if Lin signs an offer sheet they could lose him for nothing. Grunwald knew what the team was willing to pay long ago. He certainly strikes me as a person who plans ahead.

    They’re not doing this based on percentages. They’re doing it because Dolan is angry.Or to mess with Houston.

  153. Will the Thrill

    Not if he’s signed and traded by say, December?

    Z-man: It opens $40-50 million in bank account for Dolan.

  154. Brian Cronin

    It opens $40-50 million in bank account for Dolan. Yes, he’s pissed away more money than that a dozen times over, but that doesn’t make it any smarter to do it this time.

    Sure, agreed. It hurts the team but saves him money. I’m fine with that. “I don’t want to spend the money.” Fine. But it hurts the team.

    Yes, he’s pissed away more money than that a dozen times over, but that doesn’t make it any smarter to do it this time

    It is much smarter to spend the money on Jeremy Lin now than it did to spend the money on Mo Taylor, Jalen Rose, Malik Rose, Eddy Curry, Jamal Crawford, etc. etc. etc.

  155. SharKuz

    Well I think that deep down most feel like if you keep him, he’s going to find a way to prove to you that you don’t want to trade him at all. At least I do.

  156. SharKuz

    Plus you all know that 12 years from now we are going to bring him back as the veteran we want to round us out. It would be nice if for once we just held onto that kind of player now. :)

  157. BigBlueAL

    DRed: Yes, a rose colored 7-1.After all, we only beat playoff teams in 3 out of those 8 games.I bet if we’d had a better point guard we could have even gone 8-0. Logically, therefore, the smart play is to replace Lin with fat Ray Felton, a player who is both worse and older.But don’t worry-Mike Woodson runs a magic system that works best with a shitty point guard.Honestly, some of you have completely lost the plot here.Lin is much more likely to be better than Ray Felton.The only problem with the deal is that Guitar Jimmy is going to possibly have to waste a lot of money 3 years from now.What’s the downside to that?

    You dont find it funny rationalizing the signing of any player (not just Lin) by saying who cares if he sucks they could just trade him then?? As if its so easy to trade high-priced players who suck (although it is probably alot easier than it should be).

    Hey man if you notice Im not rationalizing the basketball equation of this. I think its ludicrous to rather have Felton than Lin. Im pretty damn surprised the Knicks are not willing to match this contract and are content with getting Felton instead. But its not totally shocking because that is still one helluva contract to have to pay 3 years from now and its not my money so I cant complain considering the Knicks have never been cheap. Although this is certainly a weird time to draw the line.

  158. Brian Cronin

    and its not my money so I cant complain considering the Knicks have never been cheap. Although this is certainly a weird time to draw the line.

    That sounds like a complaint. ;)

  159. SharKuz

    Z-man:
    It opens $40-50 million in bank account for Dolan.Yes, he’s pissed away more money than that a dozen times over, but that doesn’t make it any smarter to do it this time.

    I think Count de Pennies summed it up perfectly on the last thread: meh.

    Look, maybe you and some others can offer Dolan to pay the tax.All you would need is to find 40,000 people that would pay $1,000 each to keep Lin here.

    Didn’t Lin generate like 600 million for him last year? I’d be willing to bet that he’s going to lose more money letting him go then he would ever dream of losing by keeping him.

  160. Brian Cronin

    Didn’t Lin generate like 600 million for him last year? I’d be willing to bet that he’s going to lose more money letting him go then he would ever dream of losing by keeping him.

    Well, I don’t think he’s going to lose any money. He might not make as much money as he possibly could, but I doubt he loses any money.

  161. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin: That sounds like a complaint. ;)

    Ha. I dunno man I just cant get as worked up about this as so many here are. I kinda feel guilty about it as if Im stupid for not being as pissed off about it as I should be lol

  162. MeloDrama

    Z-man:
    It opens $40-50 million in bank account for Dolan.Yes, he’s pissed away more money than that a dozen times over, but that doesn’t make it any smarter to do it this time.

    I think Count de Pennies summed it up perfectly on the last thread: meh.

    Look, maybe you and some others can offer Dolan to pay the tax.All you would need is to find 40,000 people that would pay $1,000 each to keep Lin here.

    I mean, you have to understand why guys are frustrated. He’s always spent on these dudes with almost zero upside in a futile attempt to win with awful teams.

    Now, he has a guy with upside, on what could be a pretty good team; if he makes a leap, it puts us over the top perhaps. If he crashes, well, we’re out of it by the time all of our contracts expire.

    But NOW Dolan wants to save money?

    Way to maximize your chances, Jimbo.

  163. Z-man

    Brian Cronin: Lin played well during Woodson’s 7-1 start and the team looked amazing. That’s not Linsanity and that team looked like it could compete for a championship. That’s what we lose with this.Of course I’m not going to stop rooting for the Knicks, but continuing to root for the Knicks doesn’t mean we don’t acknowledge when they fuck up. We’ve been following Knick fuck-ups for years now on this blog.

    He did NOT play especially well, look at his stats, starting with assist-turnover ratio. And the playoff teams he beat? Philly with the superstar Jrue Holiday and Indiana with the mighty Darren Collison. That makes you look like a championship team? It was one stiff PG after another in that stretch.

    Also, they won the next two games without him after he went down and generally didn’t miss a beat, despite having probably the worst PG combo in the league in Davis and Bibby.

    Are you complaining that Dolan doesn’t spend like a drunken sailor when you want him to? Do you really think that most GMs/owners would match under the same exact circumstances?

  164. DRed

    BigBlueAL: You dont find it funny rationalizing the signing of any player (not just Lin) by saying who cares if he sucks they could just trade him then??As if its so easy to trade high-priced players who suck (although it is probably alot easier than it should be).

    Hey man if you notice Im not rationalizing the basketball equation of this.I think its ludicrous to rather have Felton than Lin.Im pretty damn surprised the Knicks are not willing to match this contract and are content with getting Felton instead.But its not totally shocking because that is still one helluva contract to have to pay 3 years from now and its not my money so I cant complain considering the Knicks have never been cheap.Although this is certainly a weird time to draw the line.

    Lin isn’t high priced-that’s why it would be easy to trade him. Amare Stoudemire is a high priced player you can’t trade. Lin is a guy who, worst case scenario, will be an expiring contract that should be fairly easy to deal. He’s only really expensive in year 3 to the Knicks.

  165. Will the Thrill

    If we don’t match Lin, is Kidd our backup shooting guard? Or will that be Feltwothousandpounds position? Since the position has the word shooting in it, I can’t imagine what RayRay will accomplish there.

  166. SharKuz

    Brian Cronin: Well, I don’t think he’s going to lose any money. He might not make as much money as he possibly could, but I doubt he loses any money.

    So if MSG stock surged when Linsanity started, you don’t think you’d see any plunge with it ending?

  167. Z-man

    SharKuz: Didn’t Lin generate like 600 million for him last year? I’d be willing to bet that he’s going to lose more money letting him go then he would ever dream of losing by keeping him.

    Revenue sharing waters down all basketball-related income, so I doubt it, but even so, it’s all contingent on Lin playing well.

  168. Brian Cronin

    . And the playoff teams he beat? Philly with the superstar Jrue Holiday and Indiana with the mighty Darren Collison. That makes you look like a championship team? It was one stiff PG after another in that stretch.

    The mighty Darren Collison won two playoff games against the Heat, which is more than the Knicks could say this past season.

    Do you really think that most GMs/owners would match under the same exact circumstances?

    Yes.

  169. MeloDrama

    Z-man: He did NOT play especially well, look at his stats, starting with assist-turnover ratio. And the playoff teams he beat? Philly with the superstar Jrue Holiday and Indiana with the mighty Darren Collison. That makes you look like a championship team? It was one stiff PG after another in that stretch.

    Also, they won the next two games without him after he went down and generally didn’t miss a beat, despite having probably the worst PG combo in the league in Davis and Bibby.

    Are you complaining that Dolan doesn’t spend like a drunken sailor when you want him to? Do you really think that most GMs/owners would match under the same exact circumstances?

    Nah man, Dolan can pay Lin or not pay him, that’s his right. But let your GM know that you might not match if it gets crazy. He screwed us by changing his mind abruptly and putting his team in a situation where its windfall goes away for nothing.

    And dude, it isn’t the money for Dolan. Houston JUST gave a poison pill to Asik. The Knicks knew he was flying to Houston. They knew he could get a contract like that; heck, we all expected him to. They had a freaking warning on the Asik deal. They didn’t react because THEY WOULD HAVE PAID THE TAX. If they wouldn’t have, they’d have dealt Lin.

  170. jon abbey

    Brian Cronin:

    It is much smarter to spend the money on Jeremy Lin now than it did to spend the money on Mo Taylor, Jalen Rose, Malik Rose, Eddy Curry, Jamal Crawford, etc. etc. etc.

    different CBA, not a fair comparison.

  171. BigBlueAL

    Would love to give some truth serum to Grunwald and find out what he honestly thinks about all this.

  172. jon abbey

    Brian Cronin: The mighty Darren Collison won two playoff games against the Heat, which is more than the Knicks could say this past season.

    heh, come on now. Collison played 30 minutes combined in those two Ws (13 points and a whopping 0 assists) and Miami didn’t have Bosh.

    and, if you really want to go there inexplicably, if NY had a full-strength Chandler and Miami was missing Bosh in our series, things might have been a little different there.

  173. Brian Cronin

    and, if you really want to go there inexplicably, if NY had a full-strength Chandler and Miami was missing Bosh in our series, things might have been a little different there.

    True, that would have been awesome.

  174. BigBlueAL

    Beck just tweeted that he hears the Felton deal is 3 yr/10.5 mil.

    Also this great tweet from Berman:

    NBA scout told me last week Lin is no better than Felton and said most personnel guys agree. Felton was high on list when free agency began.

  175. Brian Cronin

    different CBA, not a fair comparison.

    It is too. It is paying luxury tax. The difference is only this time around you can’t do it four years in five. Otherwise, it is fairly similar. And this time, he’d only have to pay the big bucks once for a good team as opposed to multiple years for terrible teams.

    But yes, if he just doesn’t want to pay, then sure, fair enough. I can understand preferring to keep your millions over putting the best possible team on the court. I really can.

  176. Ben R

    Z-man:
    Not a valid comparison, Asik is a proven player, Lin is not.

    Are you making a joke? Asik is just as unproven in fact he’s probably more unproven. Asik is also a second year player and has been a career backup. Asik has played 700 more minutes but only because Lin barely played his rookie year. This year they played almost the same amount of minutes.

    Asik has started 2 games Lin has started 25, Asik has played over 30 minutes in a game 3 times Lin has played over 30 minutes 19 times.

  177. MeloDrama

    Z-man:
    Not a valid comparison, Asik is a proven player, Lin is not.

    That wasn’t my point. My point was Morey showed his hand, that he had that poison pill in his arsenal, with the Asik deal. The Knicks had to anticipate that he could use it again. If they thought they might “be fiscally responsible” and let Lin go, they’d have attempted to trade him to Houston. They wouldn’t have just chanced “maybe we’ll keep him, maybe not.”

    That is why a failure to match is so pathetic. If Dolan didn’t want to spend the tax is fine. That he put us in a position to lose a prime asset for nothing is why he’s James Dolan and why he’s run a crappy franchise for a decade. He’s a terrible decision maker and this is a terrible decision, again.

  178. SharKuz

    Brian Cronin: It is too. It is paying luxury tax. The difference is only this time around you can’t do it four years in five. Otherwise, it is fairly similar. And this time, he’d only have to pay the big bucks once for a good team as opposed to multiple years for terrible teams.

    But yes, if he just doesn’t want to pay, then sure, fair enough. I can understand preferring to keep your millions over putting the best possible team on the court. I really can.

    I don’t think that in Miami, or LA, or brooklyn, or Dallas they are really ever making a decision based on tax money spent. The make basketball decisions and that is why those teams in the end are going to win and we simply won’t. At this point if we are making decisions like this you have to think that Brooklyn is closer to a title than we are.

  179. JK47

    NBA scout told me last week Lin is no better than Felton and said most personnel guys agree. Felton was high on list when free agency began.

    You know, Cock Jowles was right about everything all along. Anybody who sees Lin as “no better than Felton” has no business working in this sport in any capacity.

  180. Brian Cronin

    That wasn’t my point. My point was Morey showed his hand, that he had that poison pill in his arsenal, with the Asik deal. The Knicks had to anticipate that he could use it again. If they thought they might “be fiscally responsible” and let Lin go, they’d have attempted to trade him to Houston. They wouldn’t have just chanced “maybe we’ll keep him, maybe not.”

    That is why a failure to match is so pathetic. If Dolan didn’t want to spend the tax is fine. That he put us in a position to lose a prime asset for nothing is why he’s James Dolan and why he’s run a crappy franchise for a decade. He’s a terrible decision maker and this is a terrible decision, again.

    Yeah, exactly. There is little doubt that they were going to match until the Rockets changed it and either A. it pissed Dolan off or B. the re-arranged contract was just too much.

    I think the former is the most likely, but if it is the latter, then as you noted, it was foolish of them not to realize that Houston could possibly offer that much. Forget the original Houston offer – if they thought Houston could possibly put in a poison pill (which obviously they could) and said poison pill would deter them, then they should have acted sooner to avoid this situation entirely and at the very least, do a sign and trade before Houston made the offer. After all, if the Knicks are offering a sign and trade where the Rockets only have to pay Lin $5 million, that would have been the best offer on the table and Houston would not have had to beat it.

    Just think about that for a moment. If you believe that this just a matter of the Knicks not wanting to swallow the poison pill, then how in the world did they let it get to the point where a team would offer Lin a contract with a poison pill in it? You sign and trade him before then! Since Grunwald is smart enough to know that, I am thinking it is a matter of the Knicks always being willing to swallow it until Lin messed around with the deal, which pissed Dolan off.

  181. MeloDrama

    JK47:
    NBA scout told me last week Lin is no better than Felton and said most personnel guys agree. Felton was high on list when free agency began.

    You know, Cock Jowles was right about everything all along.Anybody who sees Lin as “no better than Felton” has no business working in this sport in any capacity.

    Even if that’s true, one was a virtual rookie, the other has already peaked.

  182. PrecociousNeophyte

    I presume these are the same personnel guys that didn’t think Lin was worthy of a draft pick, assigned him to the D League three times, and waived him twice?

  183. SharKuz

    Why would anyone want to be teammates with Melo or JR Smith? I mean really? What kind of teammate insults the deal you have on the table when it’s still possible you’ll end up on the same team? Honestly I kinda thought that this might end up working out until I heard these two morons speak. I mean at this point they are just building up a case that bringing Lin back could be a disaster for the team. Uggh

  184. jon abbey

    JK47:
    NBA scout told me last week Lin is no better than Felton and said most personnel guys agree. Felton was high on list when free agency began.

    You know, Cock Jowles was right about everything all along.Anybody who sees Lin as “no better than Felton” has no business working in this sport in any capacity.

    Lin’s only better if he can stay on the court (physically), and I can’t be the only one who doubts that he can do that.

  185. JK47

    jon abbey: Lin’s only better if he can stay on the court (physically), and I can’t be the only one who doubts that he can do that.

    You can say that about pretty much any player in the NBA. I guess Derrick Rose is only better than Ray Felton if he can stay on the court. Which guy do you want on your roster?

  186. jon abbey

    the difference is that I don’t believe that Rose’s style of play will lead to constant injuries.

  187. arthurprescott2

    jon abbey:
    the difference is that I don’t believe that Rose’s style of play will lead to constant injuries.

    Every analyst on this side of Mars has been saying that D-Rose takes too much contact and his style of play is partially responsible for his injuries (not the season-ending, but the ones during the reg. season).

  188. arthurprescott2

    massive:
    Derrick Rose and Jeremy Lin play a similar brand of basketball.

    Can’t deny that. But that’s not a good enough reason to not take a chance on Lin. I think the frustration on the part of us Knicks fans is not based a belief that Lin is some kind of savior who will save the Knicks or is ever going to be an elite PG on the level of D-Rose. Lin would be a gamble. But it’s the kind of gamble we want to see. A young PG with upside who showed charisma and grit. The team is going in a frustrating direction by bringing back older players and been-there-done-that players.

    These are just not Win-Now moves. And in fact, this whole situation with Lin (not matching, possibly) points to a spiteful owner who would rather be complacent, rather than taking a risk. After all the bad gambles we’ve seen over the years, the one good gamble/ambit the team can make is going down the drain because of Dolan.

  189. Z

    SharKuz:
    Why would anyone want to be teammates with Melo or JR Smith?I mean really?

    Why would anyone want to be fans of those guys either? Seriously, I can’t stand it anymore. Even if Lin is matched, I’m through with the bullshit surrounding this team and the people associated with it.

  190. Brian Cronin

    I think Melo’s quotes are just examples of Melo not having a great way with words. So I don’t think they’re a big deal. I don’t think he meant any offense.

    JR, though….yeah, those are some messed up quotes (especially when you pair them with the quotes that Jon mentioned from the other day when JR said he didn’t care if he started or not, just so long as he was paired with Jason Kidd). I especially don’t like the fact that he used the weak “some people think” rhetorical device to hide his own opinion. I mean, dude, your whole interview is throwing Lin under the bus, why try to de-personalize it at that point?

  191. Robtachi

    Z-man:

    Are you complaining that Dolan doesn’t spend like a drunken sailor when you want him to? Do you really think that most GMs/owners would match under the same exact circumstances?

    Um… WUT? Hibbert got his max offer matched. The Bulls may still match Asik. LANDRY FUCKING FIELDS just got $20mil. Did you SEE the contract Brook Lopez just got?

    GMs all over the league are falling over their gold leaf-plated pocketbooks to do whatever it takes to get and/or keep the players they want on their teams, whether it’s fair market value or not. That’s the reality of the current NBA and CBA, so what, is diamond Jimmy D suddenly taking a stand on the unscrupulous enabling of player entitlement and overpayment? C’mon.

  192. BigBlueAL

    Best part is at the ESPY’s Lin during his speech after winning Best Breakthrough Athlete pointed out and thanked Fields and JR Smith since they were there in the crowd.

  193. Brian Cronin

    Best part is at the ESPY’s Lin during his speech after winning Best Breakthrough Athlete pointed out and thanked Fields and JR Smith since they were there in the crowd.

    Right? It is weird. It reminds me of some of that Boston Red Sox shit where once you’re off the team, everyone starts leaking stories about how you hit your wife or you drank or whatever. I didn’t like it when the Red Sox did it to players I generally hated, I certainly don’t like it when the Knicks do it.

  194. Robtachi

    So throughout all of free agency, I’ve been primarily referencing Hoopshype’s rumor ticker for an amalgamation of twitter sources and speculation, and generally the impressions I’ve gotten from that feed have been pretty spot-on to how things have actually shaken out thus far.

    That said, I don’t get the same sense of doom and gloom from everything I’m reading. It’s a pretty mixed bag of opinions and competing sources out there claiming the Knicks will or won’t match that make it seem far from the deal being totally dead. Of course, my personal sense of dread comes from knowing who sits in the big leather chair at Penn Plaza, but I really don’t see this situation in as hopeless a light as the mainstream media has been painting it.

  195. MeloDrama

    arthurprescott2: Can’t deny that. But that’s not a good enough reason to not take a chance on Lin. I think the frustration on the part of us Knicks fans is not based a belief that Lin is some kind of savior who will save the Knicks or is ever going to be an elite PG on the level of D-Rose. Lin would be a gamble. But it’s the kind of gamble we want to see. A young PG with upside who showed charisma and grit. The team is going in a frustrating direction by bringing back older players and been-there-done-that players.

    These are just not Win-Now moves. And in fact, this whole situation with Lin (not matching, possibly) points to a spiteful owner who would rather be complacent, rather than taking a risk. After all the bad gambles we’ve seen over the years, the one good gamble/ambit the team can make is going down the drain because of Dolan.

    Exactly.

  196. jon abbey

    massive:
    Derrick Rose and Jeremy Lin play a similar brand of basketball.

    maybe I’m not explaining this well, or maybe I’m just seeing things differently from other people, but let me try one more time:

    Rose is like Kevin Johnson, constantly attacking the basket and taking hits because of that. this indeed is a risky way to play, but it’s not exactly what I mean. hits you take this way are generally anticipated by both players involved, and so they can brace themselves to an extent for the contact.

    Lin is like no other player I can really remember (a bit like Rubio?), he attacks via a series of confusing fakes that makes it way more likely that the defender will lose track of Lin entirely, and hit him hard in a way that he doesn’t actually intend. also, Lin often jerks backwards on minor or non-existent contact, and this also makes him more vulnerable to injury IMO.

  197. BigBlueAL

    Hahn with good stuff right now on Twitter, although Im sure most here disagree with this tweet:

    Saying Knicks have overpaid before so why not overpay now is like saying you keep dating Mr. Wrong so why stop now? Not a valid argument.

  198. Brian Cronin

    I do agree that past dumb decisions don’t mean you should do another one. This would not be a dumb decision, though.

    Do note that Hahn also says he thinks the Knicks should match.

  199. BigBlueAL

    For the record he thinks they should keep Lin and that it would make no sense not to. Also looks like he likes getting Felton back and thinks Kidd will play mostly SG with Felton and Lin playing PG.

  200. BigBlueAL

    Damn it Brian you beat me to it!! I was gonna mention that too!!

    One thing I dont agree with is people saying if anything Lin would be a nice expiring contract to trade in Year 3. The entire freaking roster will be nice expiring contracts by that time so its not like Lin’s contract would be unique in that sense.

  201. Brian Cronin

    He would not be unique, true, but it is just saying that unlike Amar’e, Lin’s expiring contract would likely be a lot easier to move.

    In addition, if the worst case scenario happened and Lin is just awful, the Knicks can cut him after year 2 and spread his luxury tax hit over two years (they might even be able to spread it further, I forget what the limit is). That simple move would reduce the cap hit tremendously, as it would be at most $7.5 million instead of $15 million. That would save the Knicks roughly $30 million.

  202. BigBlueAL

    Thats the stretch provision right?? Dunno exactly how that works.

    Hey again I really hope they match the offer sheet, Im just trying to look at it from the Knicks point of view and hope there is some real logic (however flawed) to letting Lin go instead of just anger and spite.

  203. Z

    jon abbey: maybe I’m not explaining this well, or maybe I’m just seeing things differently from other people, but let me try one more time:

    Rose is like Kevin Johnson, constantly attacking the basket and taking hits because of that. this indeed is a risky way to play, but it’s not exactly what I mean. hits you take this way are generally anticipated by both players involved, and so they can brace themselves to an extent for the contact.

    Lin is like no other player I can really remember (a bit like Rubio?), he attacks via a series of confusing fakes that makes it way more likely that the defender will lose track of Lin entirely, and hit him hard in a way that he doesn’t actually intend. also, Lin often jerks backwards on minor or non-existent contact, and this also makes him more vulnerable to injury IMO.

    I understand this. You’ve said it for a while now, and it may be true. It’s a risk this contract would take.

    jon abbey:
    he’s definitely right on that, it’s not a valid argument.

    I don’t understand this, though. This would be like switching from Mr. Wrong to Mr. Stupid. It’s not the spending that was Mr. Wrong, it was the spending it on the wrong players. Dolan is still dating Mr. Wrong. The man will never change.

  204. Robtachi

    Yeah, I have been wracking my brain trying to come up with a valid financial or basketball reason for not matching the offer, and I honestly can’t.

    Dolan is already paying massive luxury taxes in 2015 for the previous huge contracts he authorized. It would be what, an additional $20-25 million on the luxury tax portion of the ledger? That could be outstripped by 10-times that amount in the first year of Lin’s contract by whatever television agreements MSG/Cablevision comes to with foreign networks, not to speak of the additional international marketing windfall those networks would then enjoy which I’m sure Dolan would have some sizable stake in. So the financial angle is bunk, as far as I’m concerned.

  205. Brian Cronin

    Thats the stretch provision right?? Dunno exactly how that works.

    It allows you to take the remaining contract and stretch it. You waive the player and their salary (and the cap hit) is stretched over twice as long as the remaining years plus one year, so five years if there are two years left and three years if there is one year left. So if they waived Lin before Year 2, then they could stretch his $20 million salary over five years, with the salary being $4 million each year. If they do it before Year 3, it would be $5 million each year. It would save them a shit ton of money if that’s the way they went.

    So think about that – worst case scenario they can waive him and spread his money out over three years and not have to take the luxury tax hit!

    The financial hit is not a convincing reason not to match.

  206. Robtachi

    Robtachi:
    Yeah, I have been wracking my brain trying to come up with a valid financial or basketball reason for not matching the offer, and I honestly can’t.

    Dolan is already paying massive luxury taxes in 2015 for the previous huge contracts he authorized. It would be what, an additional $20-25 million on the luxury tax portion of the ledger? That could be outstripped by 10-times that amount in the first year of Lin’s contract by whatever television agreements MSG/Cablevision comes to with foreign networks, not to speak of the additional international marketing windfall those networks would then enjoy which I’m sure Dolan would have some sizable stake in.So the financial angle is bunk, as far as I’m concerned.

    Basically, here’s hoping the only thing James Dolan values more than his personal pride is his wallet.

    And yes, I can’t believe I just said that, either.

  207. JK47

    When has this franchise ever valued a young player with upside? Generally they get rid of that type of player the first chance they get and bring in a “star” instead.

    Trevor Ariza for Steve Francis.
    Draft picks that turned out to be LaMarcus Aldridge and Joakim Noah for Eddy Curry.
    Iman Shumpert for Steve Nash (although that didn’t pan out).
    Marcus Camby and a lottery pick for Antonio McDyess.
    Danilo Gallinari and draft picks for Carmelo Anthony.
    Jeremy Lin for Jason Kidd and Ray Felton.

    It’s the same stupid fucking mistake over and over again, they never learn from it and they never will. That’s why this team will never, ever be good.

  208. arthurprescott2

    Brian Cronin: Right? It is weird. It reminds me of some of that Boston Red Sox shit where once you’re off the team, everyone starts leaking stories about how you hit your wife or you drank or whatever. I didn’t like it when the Red Sox did it to players I generally hated, I certainly don’t like it when the Knicks do it.

    Exactly. The way NY media is just ripping into Lin is eerily reminiscent of Red Sox tactics. Is this really where we are now? We stoop that low??

  209. MeloDrama

    Z: I understand this. You’ve said it for a while now, and it may be true. It’s a risk this contract would take.

    I don’t understand this, though. This would be like switching from Mr. Wrong to Mr. Stupid. It’s not the spending that was Mr. Wrong, it was the spending it on the wrong players. Dolan is still dating Mr. Wrong. The man will never change.

    Yeah, the “don’t overspend on Lin” crowd would be absolutely right if this were a five or six year deal that actively could hurt the team down the road.

    But its not. It begins and ends in your three year window. You sign Lin; if he busts, you’re capped out. If he hits, you’re capped out.

  210. Robtachi

    Apparently Printezis’ rights are going to the Blazers in addition to Papanikolaou’s.

  211. Robtachi

    Now another “source” coming out, this one supposedly a Lin confidant, claims regardless of the past few days’ events, Lin still very much wants to come back.

    With the Knicks pretty much tapped out for moves, the backcourt looks like:

    Kidd/Felton/Prigioni
    Smith/Shump (sorta)

    Purely from a basketball standpoint, particularly when you consider Shump’s absence, that is a guard rotation that is still not deep enough. 4 guards for the first two months of the season, and only one real shooter among them? Not a recipe for success. Lin would improve this groups prospects immensely pre- and post-Shump returning.

    Bah, whatever, too groggy, too much time spent agonizing on this. Stupid Dolan, stupid Lin, stupid insomnia, stupid Morey… *grumble grumble grumble*

  212. Sovereign

    I’ll start by saying that this post is by no means made by a person very knowledgeable about basketball. Compared to most people on Knickerblogger, I am probably one of the rather clueless fans you like to make fun of. That’s also why I am an avid reader of the blog and comments, that way I can learn.

    The point I am going to make has nothing to do with actual basketball reasons, and not with the marketability of Lin in the massive Asian market.

    The reason I want the Knicks to keep Lin is simple: He is likable, hard working and his story is just unfolding. He is the kind of player I enjoy watching grow and develop, win or lose. The Knicks are my eastern conference team (the Lakers are my western conference team). I used to follow them on the news and I catch their games via nba.tv when they are at a decent time for me (and being at GMT+2 that typically means Sunday games only). Lin isn’t the only player on the team I like and follow individually (Chandler is the another and for what it is worth, I’ve plenty of faith in Melo as well, when he plays like he truly wants to win), either.

    But what Lin made me do is get up at 2-3am, crack open a beer and watch the saga unfold. When he hit that 3pt winning shot against Toronto I woke up half the friggin’ neighborhood. When the Knicks played on Sundays, I had 5-6 people who have never watched basketball before pile into my living room and we’d watch the Knickerbockers play, yelling at the top of our lungs when they won, and planning for the next time if they lost.

    So, in the end, I couldn’t care less for Dolan’s money. And I couldn’t care less for “basketball reasons”. I want to see Lin go against the best, do his best, and either succeed, or fail (I do believe his chance of succeeding outweighs his chances of failing, but that’s a belief and an opinion, I cannot foretell the future).

    But I want that to happen on a team I like to watch and follow, rather than the frakkin’ Houston Rockets

  213. RastaPappa

    If we keep Lin who’s leaving? Woodson or Melo? Do you really think that Lin and Melo can play together? Dear Melo can you think before you speak?

  214. Z-man

    Brian Cronin: The mighty Darren Collison won two playoff games against the Heat, which is more than the Knicks could say this past season.

    See, this is the kind of inane reasoning that distorts the Lin picture. Collison’s stats in those two wins:
    Win #1 17 minutes, 7 points, 0 assists
    Win#2 13 minutes, 6 points, 0 assists
    Yeah, he sure was a major conributer!

    As to other GMs matching, I doubt it. If that were the case, way more of them would be paying luxury tax. It’s that Dolan has been so amenable (usually stupidly) to paying tax that burns you and others up.

  215. Z-man

    Robtachi: Um… WUT? Hibbert got his max offer matched. The Bulls may still match Asik. LANDRY FUCKING FIELDS just got $20mil. Did you SEE the contract Brook Lopez just got?GMs all over the league are falling over their gold leaf-plated pocketbooks to do whatever it takes to get and/or keep the players they want on their teams, whether it’s fair market value or not. That’s the reality of the current NBA and CBA, so what, is diamond Jimmy D suddenly taking a stand on the unscrupulous enabling of player entitlement and overpayment? C’mon.

    How much luxury tax is Indiana and Toronto paying on those contacts?

  216. Brian Cronin

    As to other GMs matching, I doubt it. If that were the case, way more of them would be paying luxury tax. It’s that Dolan has been so amenable (usually stupidly) to paying tax that burns you and others up.

    Right, most teams are not in the exact same circumstances, which was the question. The teams that are would match. As should the Knicks.

  217. Brian Cronin

    And, again, as I point out, if the worst case scenario happens and Lin is somehow a huge bomb (which is unlikely, as some poster suggested that a reasonable expectation for Lin next season was a “Top 15 point guard in the NBA,” so I’ll go with that as a reasonable expectation for Lin) and the Knicks can’t get out from under the last year of the deal before the final year, then they can always waive him and have that $15 million spread out over three years, thereby eliminating the luxury tax problem in its entirety.

    Therefore, there is no real economic risk here, luxury tax-wise, and a substantial slam on the team itself from an on-the-court perspective. Not matching would be idiotic.

  218. yehudi3000

    Brian Cronin: And, again, as I point out, if the worst case scenario happens and Lin is somehow a huge bomb (which is unlikely, as some poster suggested that a reasonable expectation for Lin next season was a “Top 15 point guard in the NBA,” so I’ll go with that as a reasonable expectation for Lin) and the Knicks can’t get out from under the last year of the deal before the final year, then they can always waive him and have that $15 million spread out over three years, thereby eliminating the luxury tax problem in its entirety. Therefore, there is no real economic risk here, luxury tax-wise, and a substantial slam on the team itself from an on-the-court perspective. Not matching would be idiotic.

    I realy dont think it’s a logic decision, it’s all about loyalty. Lin played poker for the last few months Dolan doesn’t like it.

    I think there is a good chance they will end up matching. They actuly considered matching Fields contract, which wasnt that far away from Lin’s.
    Also, they can always trade him to a team like Sacramento who desperate for some attention.

  219. daJudge

    Brian, I agree with much of the above. As such, I don’t get this whole thing. It’s not sound financial due diligence. However it plays out, I think there will be damage to the already tenuous so-called team chemistry. I hope the team comes to its senses, signs the kid, and just moves on with a very strong roster. I know I’m all over the place, but I never thought this would be an issue at all. What a mess. BTW, I’m not a Felton hater at all, but Lin’s ceiling is undeniably high.

  220. Frank

    I’d like to second the notion that this is personal, not business from Dolan’s side. And I really think the Knicks trying to drag this out has two purposes- 1) make Houston tie up their cap longer, and 2) give Grunwald more time to talk some sense into Dolan.

    I’d like to advance another possibility for the Felton trade other than to replace Lin and to provide PG depth. The PG market was unusually deep this year, and will NOT be so next summer or the year after- check out hoopsworld’s list of FA in 13 and 14. The PG market next summer is basically Devin Harris, Calderon, and Jarrett Jack. This is the last time for a long time we can do sign and trades, so maybe GG was just squeezing every last trade piece now whole he could. Signing Felton to a relatively good contract (miniMLE-like) might be a good trade asset going forward. And it’s yet another expiring after the 14-15 season.

  221. Frank

    And just emphasize points others have made above- Grunwald is obviously a smart dude so there is no conceivable way they didn’t have contingency plans for this other than letting the most marketable player in the world walk for nothing and signing fat Felton. That’s why this feels so personal and irrational. Go do your thing Glen- convince Dolan to take his head out of his ass.

    I love the stretch provision Brian. Gotta tweet that to Spike or one of the CAA guys somehow. Although I highly doubt GG doesn’t already know all about it.

  222. Brian Cronin

    BTW, I’m not a Felton hater at all, but Lin’s ceiling is undeniably high.

    Oh yeah, me neither. I think picking up Felton as a back-up is a great move. Just not instead of Lin. In addition to Lin, it is a great move we all can enjoy (Felton helps and we all love seeing our old buddy Kurt Thomas back).

    Two of my all-time favorite Knicks were Camby and Thomas, so I love having them back.

  223. Frank

    And since MSG is a publicly traded company, there should be a shareholder lawsuit for a company willfully destroying its best asset.

  224. Brian Cronin

    Although I highly doubt GG doesn’t already know all about it.

    You’d certainly hope so. But if he does, then there’s no reason for them not to match. Well, unless, of course, it is as you fear and this is just Dolan being spiteful.

    Like the song I linked to earlier from Spring Awakening (which featured Glee’s Lea Michelle and Newsroom’s John Gallagher, Jr., who won a Tony for the show), “Yeah, you’re fucked all right and all for spite.”

  225. Z-man

    Brian, I hope they match because I like Lin, and you probably know that I have been a big fan of the young, promising player in general (DLee, Nate, Wilson, Gallo, Randolph, Fields, Mozgov, Shump, to name a few). I just vehemently disagree with your assertion that Lin’s accomplishments and promise make matching a no brainer. Even as a top-15 PG, that would imply that most playoff teams would have an advantage at that position. That is clearly the case with the Celts, Nets and Bulls, and if the game vs. the Heat was any indication, even Chalmers is better than Lin (forget about the P&R, Lin had trouble getting the ball upcourt vs. Chalmers.)

    There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Lin is far from being competitive with the best PGs in the league. Is he better than Felton? Probably, but bear in mind that many a distinguished poster was calling Felton a top-10 PG when we had him until he tailed off after being played 40 mpg by D’Antoni. I just don’t think a) Lin will be more than marginally better than Felton (probably better on O, probably worse on D) during the next 2 years and b) how he would ever justify a payout of $60 million in one year barring the unlikely event that we beat the Heat, the Celts, or the Nets because of his play.

  226. Brian Cronin

    First off, 3 years/$25 million is more than worth a Top 15 point guard. Plenty of point guards worse than that have similar deals (Mike Conley for one, who is no longer even the best point guard on his team).

    But more importantly, if he is truly not worth it (and they somehow can’t trade him), they can waive him after year two and the $60 million thing is completely absolved. The luxury tax situation is not an issue.

  227. Z-man

    BTW, Brian, I hope you perceive this as “respectful” disagreement. FWIW, I was golfing with another prominent KBer and we remarked about how great it was that you, ephus and Frank in particular have been super-dedicated to providing great information and super-responsive dialogue during the entire FA period.

    Lin or no Lin, I think next season is going to be the best Knicks season since 1999 (especially now that our rotation has two players from that team!) Go Knicks!

  228. Z-man

    Brian Cronin: First off, 3 years/$25 million is more than worth a Top 15 point guard. Plenty of point guards worse than that have similar deals (Mike Conley for one, who is no longer even the best point guard on his team). But more importantly, if he is truly not worth it (and they somehow can’t trade him), they can waive him after year two and the $60 million thing is completely absolved. The luxury tax situation is not an issue.

    ephus, is the luxury tax an issue if the Knicks decide to waive Lin before year 3?

  229. Frank

    @269 – appreciate the call-out!

    Anyway, the stretch provision changes my whole thinking about this – thanks for reminding us of that Brian! I sort of agree that $35-45MM in taxes (in just that one year!) is a huge gamble to take on a relatively unproven guy, but if that cap hit can be spread out over 3 years and the luxury tax greatly decreased as a result, then I think it is kind of a no-brainer.

    Seriously – since when does a team get absolutely gifted 1 billion fans and then throw it away? it’s just ridiculous.

    You know what’s also ridiculous? There can be no doubt that by signing this modified offer sheet, Lin either tried to squeeze as much money out of this situation as he could, or didn’t want the pressure of playing at MSG and for a championship. I don’t fault him for that, although I think at the end of the day it’s going to look bad for him and his brand, and certainly will end up costing him more than the $5MM in guaranteed money he did this for.

    So this was a money grab by Lin. Melo made a money grab. Amare signed for the max. As many have argued here, Tyson liked the idea of playing here sort of, until we made max room for him, and then he took the max too. Novak took a probably over-market deal. Kidd squeezed all the $ he could. Camby squeezed all the $ he could.

    The only guy who put his wallet where his mouth was? JR Smith.

  230. Brian Cronin

    The only guy who put his wallet where his mouth was? JR Smith.

    Agreed. But then he promptly complained about how it pisses him off that Lin will make a lot more than him. ;)

    But seriously, yeah, I agree, JR is the only guy on the team, heck, the only guy I can recall in a looong time who actually left money on the table to play for the Knicks. Nice to see.

    Then again, with the way the market is shaping up, it looks like he’d have been limited to the mini-MLE anyways, so he’s not leaving that much money on the table ($200,000), but still, he’s leaving money, consarnit!

  231. Frank

    Z-man: ephus, is the luxury tax an issue if the Knicks decide to waive Lin before year 3?

    not to steal ephus’s fire, but I was curious too, and this is what it says in Larry Coon’s CBA FAQ:

    “If the player’s salary payments are spread-out using the Stretch provision, the team may elect to stretch the salary cap charge to match2. For example, if two seasons remain on the player’s contract when he is waived, and the payment is spread-out over five years per the Stretch provision, then the team may elect to spread-out the salary cap hit over those same five years.”

    This whole thing is so obviously personal. Grunwald has to get through to that bonehead Dolan. You cannot let Jeremy Lin leave for nothing when we have so few movable pieces.

  232. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, exactly. It would be as if Lin were making $5 million each of the three seasons. So the cap hit would be for $5 million in 2015-16. The reason the $15 is so scary is because it would almost undoubtedly put the Knicks into the $85-90 million territory, where the luxury tax gets really onerous.

    Knocking $10 million off of the cap hit would almost certainly get the total team salary under $90 million and very likely under $85 million.

  233. Frank

    Brian Cronin: Agreed. But then he promptly complained about how it pisses him off that Lin will make a lot more than him. ;)

    But seriously, yeah, I agree, JR is the only guy on the team, heck, the only guy I can recall in a looong time who actually left money on the table to play for the Knicks. Nice to see.

    Then again, with the way the market is shaping up, it looks like he’d have been limited to the mini-MLE anyways, so he’s not leaving that much money on the table ($200,000), but still, he’s leaving money, consarnit!

    Sure makes you sort of appreciate the big 3 in Miami a little more, doesn’t it? They identified where they wanted to play, all took a little less to give the team a little more flexibility. Blah blah blah no state income tax blah blah but still, they took less than they could have. Rarer than rare for guys in their prime income years.

  234. Brian Cronin

    Sure makes you sort of appreciate the big 3 in Miami a little more, doesn’t it? They identified where they wanted to play, all took a little less to give the team a little more flexibility. Blah blah blah no state income tax blah blah but still, they took less than they could have. Rarer than rare for guys in their prime income years.

    I definitely give them credit for putting their money where their mouth was, as it were.

  235. Z-man

    But does stretching it over 3 years eliminate it or just reduce it?

    Also, even if Lin is waived, that’s $25 million for 2 years worth of his services (which would have to be disappointing to waive him) plus whatever luxury tax you pay on top of that.

  236. Z-man

    Brian Cronin: Yeah, exactly. It would be as if Lin were making $5 million each of the three seasons. So the cap hit would be for $5 million in 2015-16.

    My understanding is that it would be $25 mil divided by 3, no? That’s $8.3 mill per year…

  237. Brian Cronin

    My understanding is that it would be $25 mil divided by 3, no? That’s $8.3 mill per year…

    No, it’d be the remaining salary. So $15 million/3.

  238. Brian Cronin

    Also, even if Lin is waived, that’s $25 million for 2 years worth of his services (which would have to be disappointing to waive him) plus whatever luxury tax you pay on top of that.

    Right, but that’d be the absolute worst cast scenario. Odds are at the very least you can trade his contract if need be. The point is that the worst case scenario for Lin is really not all that bad and it is, you know, the worst case scenario. Remember, the doom and gloom is the notion of Lin costing them $60 million while not being any good. They can prevent that nightmare scenario from occurring by waiving him.

  239. Frank

    @278-
    as i understand it, the stretch takes the remaining $ on the contract and stretches it over 2x the remaining years + 1 (so 2 years left would be paid over 5 years; and 1 year remaining would be over 3 years). So if Lin disappoints and we want to get rid of him after 13-14, then the 14-15 salary of ~15MM would be paid $5MM per year over 3 years, and applied to the cap (and luxury tax calculation) in the same way. The total amount of the contract paid to Lin would remain the same. Using the stretch saves Dolan zero$ in terms of salary, but could save him as much as $45MM in tax payments, while only incurring a $5MM cap “hold” in 14-15, 15-16, and 16-17.

    That, IMHO, is a gamble worth taking for a 23 year old PG who set the world on fire, and played to a PER of 20 (top 10 PG) over 25 games. And that’s regardless of the marketing potential.

  240. Z-man

    Actually, the worst case scenario is that Lin plays just well enough to not be waived, boxing the team in to the full luxury tax :)

  241. Brian Cronin

    Actually, the worst case scenario is that Lin plays just well enough to not be waived, boxing the team in to the full luxury tax :)

    Well, it’d be totally in their control, right? If they think he’s worth the luxury tax fee, then they can keep him. The point is that they can avoid the crazy luxury tax figures if they so choose.

  242. Brian Cronin

    @278-
    as i understand it, the stretch takes the remaining $ on the contract and stretches it over 2x the remaining years + 1 (so 2 years left would be paid over 5 years; and 1 year remaining would be over 3 years). So if Lin disappoints and we want to get rid of him after 13-14, then the 14-15 salary of ~15MM would be paid $5MM per year over 3 years, and applied to the cap (and luxury tax calculation) in the same way. The total amount of the contract paid to Lin would remain the same. Using the stretch saves Dolan zero$ in terms of salary, but could save him as much as $45MM in tax payments, while only incurring a $5MM cap “hold” in 14-15, 15-16, and 16-17.

    That, IMHO, is a gamble worth taking for a 23 year old PG who set the world on fire, and played to a PER of 20 (top 10 PG) over 25 games. And that’s regardless of the marketing potential.

    Correct. And that’s presuming that if he disappoints, you can’t still flip him to another team for draft picks, etc.

  243. RicanKnick

    Agree 100% with you bro!!! You seem to be the only one in here who shares my point of view…

    Z-man:
    Wow, the level of delusional thinking about Lin is mind-boggling.People seem to forget that the reality of Linsanity has lots of caveats, particularly on the defensive end.Please check the game logs and box scores carefully. After the initial novelty wore off, he got abused by Rondo, Deron, Parker, Calderon, Chalmers and a rehabbing Derrick Rose. He was outplayed by Jennings.He played 38yo Kidd evenly in the return game. In 25 games, he had 11 games with 6 or more turnovers. Deron, Rondo and Chalmers, and soon Rose, will all eat Lin for lunch for the life of his contract.They will no doubt do the same to Felton, but to say that Lin is the difference between us being a watchable, rootable team and us sucking is so over the top, it’s laughable.

    JK47, I have no problem with you trolling this site every day if Lin becomes an all-star in Houston while Felton eats his way out of the league. But if the opposite happens, If Lin is exposed as a flash-in-the-pan bottom half or worse PG, or misses most of the next 3 years due to getting drilled to the hardwood every time he drives to the rim, will you come on and apologize every day for being so wrong?

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