Comments on: ESPN: Greatest Knick 5?

By: Ted Nelson

Ted Nelson — Mon, 20 Sep 2010 17:48:07 +0000

Jafa: Ted,

Why are you so low on Houston?

I wouldn’t say I’m low on Houston at all. I just think Monroe was clearly a better player, including his Knicks career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/monroea01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/houstal01.html

Allan Houston had one season where he broke a 17 PER and 2 where he broke a .111 WS/48. For a guy playing the modern era whose strength was scoring…………………… Not that impressive. I would take Earl Monroe based on raw stats, and when you consider he played pre-modern era I think (assume really… haven’t particularly researched it) that only helps his case.

I will grant people that the SG competition is not particularly fierce over Knicks’ history. I just think Houston often gets overrated based on his stroke, high scoring totals, professionalism, huge contract…

BigBlueAL: OK hold on, Pearl was great with the Bullets but he wasnt nearly as good as a Knick.

He wasn’t particularly better on the Bullets. His rookie season was his best season, but he was pretty consistently good. Houston wasn’t very good as a Knicks either. Earl played about 7 seasons on the Knicks and Allan 8–cutting out both their last seasons where they didn’t play much–so, the Bullets case can also be made with Houston and Pistons (though he wasn’t very good there either).

BigBlueAL: Ted, I would be interested to see who your starting 5 would be especially since you go about it statistically.

I would go with Clyde, Earl, and Bernard King… frontcourt spots are really tough. I went with David Lee and Patrick Ewing on ESPN. Lee mostly because I knew he wouldn’t get much love and Ewing/Reed was more or less a toss up to me.

By: Z-man

Z-man — Sun, 19 Sep 2010 03:43:54 +0000

There are lot of reasons why Reed overshadowed Clyde. Reed was the undisputed heart and soul of that team. When he went down in game 5, the Knicks still won the game to go up 3-2. From that moment, however, the whole city was asking whether Reed would suit up for game 6 (he didn’t and Wilt demolished us) and then up until the warmups of game 7. The buildup was beyond my ability to explain it, and as a kid from the Bronx who started rooting for the Knicks when Reed was a rookie, it was almost too much to take. When he came out of the locker room, not only did the Garden go berserk, but Clyde said the Lakers were watching in disbelief.

It still seemed too good to be true to me, and everyone still knew that Reed was far from 100% and the Knicks were going up against Wilt and West in the most important game in franchise history. Then Reed comes out and hits those two jumpers to start the game and drags his leg around the court for 27 minutes. It was pretty unbelievable, and all the more dramatic because it was the first championship ever for the Knicks. If nothing else, his impact on his team despite the paltry stats in the box score exemplified the value of leadership, something we haven’t had around here in a while.

Here’s a pretty good article on that game:

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/05/05/willis-reeds-vintage-moment-turns-40/

Ewing is as deserving of best Knick player ever as anyone, but Reed had the moment for the ages. I truly wis that Big Pat could have given us just one moment like that. Alas…

By: BigBlueAL

BigBlueAL — Sat, 18 Sep 2010 23:44:22 +0000

Z-man I totally understand. Considering you were able to watch those 70′s Knicks at the age I got to see the 90′s Knicks we both feel the same way to those teams although luckily for you the Knicks won championships. Of course I cant complain because I am as big a Yankee fan as I am a Knicks fan so I was able to enjoy the late 90′s Yankees at the age where you will never forget those teams.

I will say this though I understand the Reed thing in Game 7 vs the Lakers but he only scored 4 pts and if Im not mistaken didnt even play half the game!! I always was curious why Clyde Frazier isnt more revered than Reed considering he was the one who scored almost 40 pts and close to 20 assists that game plus I love the highlight of him straight pick-pocketing Jerry West and going all the way for the layup while drawing a foul.

Trust me I totally respect the 70 and 73 championship teams so my say Ewing is better than Reed is in no ways meant to disrespect Reed at all. I just think Ewing still gets an unjustified bad rap by some thats all.

By: Joamiq

Joamiq — Sat, 18 Sep 2010 19:14:35 +0000

Reed
DB
King
Guerin
Clyde

By: Z-man

Z-man — Sat, 18 Sep 2010 14:59:53 +0000

PS , re HOFers, I was only referring to 1969. Monroe and Lucas came along later and by the next championship, reed was in serious decline due to injury.

By: Z-man

Z-man — Sat, 18 Sep 2010 14:54:43 +0000

BBA, I hear you, especially the part about playing with 0 HOFers. I will make the point that Reed only played with 2 bonafide HOFers (Clyde and DD.) Bradley was inducted and I loved him, but he really wasn’t a HOF caliber player. It’s a really tough call for me, and I can’t argue against your feelings on Ewing. Sadly, the lack of a championship is undeniable, and he never fulfilled the dreams we had when he fell in our lap at the first draft lottery.. Reed not only had greatness to his game, not only won all 3 MVP awards that year (Ewing never won any), he willed his team to a championship despite a gruesome injury. I was 12 years old when I watched that unfold, and can tell you that there will never, ever be another Knick moment like that. The grainy old videos just cant do it justice. Maybe if Ewing had come out in 1999 vs. Spurs with that partially torn achilles I would have thought differently. If there was any way possible, Reed would have been out there, you can be sure of it.

By: BigBlueAL

BigBlueAL — Sat, 18 Sep 2010 02:55:28 +0000

Ewing’s lack of leadership skills was having 0 HOF teammates and only having 2 teammates in Oak and Starks make the All-Star team during their time with the Knicks and those All-Star appearances was due solely to the team’s record in 1994 (plus no MJ at SG in Starks’ case).

I really thought after all these years of being beyond awful people would stop with the stupid Ewing crap and realize what a great player he was and how important he was to the franchise.

Im fortunate enough to have found a website with thousands of old NBA games and have been able to download and re-watch a bunch of Knicks playoff games from the 90′s. I am 30 yo now so I remembered all those games vividly but watching them again gave me even more appreciation for how good a player Ewing was. Offensively those teams prior to the 1996-1997 season was all Ewing all the time and for good reason. But to me the part of his game that may be completely underestimated was his defense. Forget shot-blocking and defensive rebounding which he was great at but my god he challenged everything and the way he played D on the pick and roll is something you never see anymore. Plus he gave his 110% every minute he played which I know is not something we should really praise but still.

Even when he was old and broken down his performances in Game 5 in 1999 and Game 7 in 2000 vs the Heat and an in his prime monster in Zo are epic. Was he as good as Olajuwon or an in his prime Shaq?? No he was not. Nor was he obviously as good as Jordan. But he was still a HOF/50 greatest player ever. He was also my favorite player ever and always will be damnit!!!!

By: BigBlueAL

BigBlueAL — Sat, 18 Sep 2010 02:42:08 +0000

Reed’s leadership skills was having 4 HOF teammates.

By: Frank O.

Frank O. — Sat, 18 Sep 2010 01:34:51 +0000

Yeah, Houston isn’t in the same universe with Earl. It’s silly really.
Oak seems easy too.
I think I take Reed over Ewing because of his leadership, and his ability to deliver a championship. Ewing couldn’t get it done.
Bernard King should be there, which makes an even stronger case for Reed. With King on the court, Pat wouldn’t get nearly as many shots. Clyde is a lock at point.

Shit…

All this is doing is making me see the inadequacies of this Knicks squad…

By: Z-man

Z-man — Sat, 18 Sep 2010 00:28:19 +0000

Monroe vs. Houston
There is really no comparison between these two. Monroe was on the 50 greatest player roster. I was fan during his time, and he was a superstar, period. Even Frazier would tell you that, look for quotes on what he thought of Pearl. I listened to Marv do every knick game during the Monroe era and can tel you that he was as revered as, say, Dwayne Wade is today. The fact that his stats dropped off when he came to the Knicks is very misleading. If LeBron’s stats drop off (or Wade’s) on this year’s heat, is he a lesser player?

Reed vs. Ewing
BBA, the reason I go with Reed (again, having experienced virtually every game of both players) is that Reed had leadership abilities that transcended his talents as a player. He ws larger than life in his playing days, Ewing was not.