Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, October 22, 2014

ESPN.com: Amar’e Stoudemire Out for Game 3

ESPNNewYork’s Ian Begley is now reporting that Stoudemire will, in fact, miss Game 3.

We all were expecting this, but now we at least know for sure. Apparently, Amar’e visited a hand specialist today and at least he suffered no ligament or tendon damage. So that’s something.

In addition, the New York Times is reporting that Stoudemire is expected to miss the rest of the series, as well. (H/T to joe_tex)

Watch this .gif to at least have something to laugh about.

79 comments on “ESPN.com: Amar’e Stoudemire Out for Game 3

  1. PC

    Continuing on from the Amare debate. I actually think Amare is a solid rim protector. In game 2 he got up and blocked two of Bosh’s dunks (i think one rattled in luckily for Bosh). There is no denying, however, that he doesn’t slide his feet and everyone can go right by him.

    This massive deficiency in his defense doesn’t make him an awful player that should be traded immediately, it just makes him not worthy of max contract.

    We are so down on him, but if you notice, the national perspective on Amare is not that down on him. Everyone understands that he is bad on D and that he probably isn’t worth the money, but people are not as crazy as the bloggers wanting his head.

    With that said, I think there is a small chance some team with a PG to run PnR may want him. We wouldn’t get much back (or maybe too much of another bad contract), but it would free us from the drama and allow Woodson Melo Shump and Chandler to anchor a defensive team (something you can’t do with Amare).

  2. daJudge

    I have very mixed feelings on Stat. First, while I think the punch was incredibly dumb, for me, it really doesn’t factor in to the trade debate. He obviously acted without thinking, but it’s really the least of the problem. Also, it’s not as if he acted in some immoral or illegal way, just plain stupid, perhaps reckless. The real issue is that he is not an effective power forward relative to the traditional and necessary skill set. I do agree that he is a decent rim protector as stated by PC, but he is a poor rebounder, doesn’t box out, doesn’t throw the outlet, doesn’t defend well at all and doesn’t really post. He does some things beautifully on offense, but not w/o a suitable point guard. As much as I like Melo, the acquisition did not help Stat as opposed to acquiring a PnR point guard. I know this has all been said. I submit that when Lin, Melo, Chandler and Stat really have a chance to work together, the offense might improve. For me though the problem is Stat still will not be an effective power forward. The answer may be that he needs to come off the bench as a 5. If he doesn’t embrace that role, move him.

  3. ruruland

    Let’s remember though that rim protection isn’t about blocking shots it’s about contesting them without fouling.

    Marcus Camby was an amazing shot-blocker but a poor rim protector overal.

    Chandler doesn’t block many shots but he contests almost everything without fouling.

    Amar’e gets out of the way inside, save for the occasional highlight block.

  4. nicos

    ruruland:
    Let’s remember though that rim protection isn’t about blocking shots it’s about contesting them without fouling.

    Amar’e gets out of the way inside, save for the occasional highlight block.

    As does Melo without even the occasional highlight block. He’s still a better defensive option than Amar’e because Amar’e is about as bad in the pnr as you can be. A lot of Melo’s success defending the post this year has been by stripping the ball and I wonder how sustainable that is- eventually that gets on scouting reports and guys will just keep the ball high and shoot over him. Of course, he’s forced teams to go small to match up with him on the offensive end which alleviates some of the problems. A better defensive option than Amar’e for sure, but I have my doubts about Melo as a 4 over the course of the season.

  5. ruruland

    nicos: As does Melo without even the occasional highlight block.He’s still a better defensive option than Amar’e because Amar’e is about as bad in the pnr as you can be.A lot of Melo’s success defending the post this year has been by stripping the ball and I wonder how sustainable that is- eventually that gets on scouting reports and guys will just keep the ball high and shoot over him.Of course, he’s forced teams to go small to match up with him on the offensive end which alleviates some of the problems.A better defensive option than Amar’e for sure, but I have my doubts about Melo as a 4 over the course of the season.

    It’s difficult to make an offensive move with the ball without bringing it down. Melo has extremely quick hands with the ball in front of him and has been doing that for years down there. Great hands guys just make those plays. Shump will keep making them regardless of what the scouting reports say.

    Going back years I’ve seen him with a ton of great possessions on guys like Dirk, Bosh, Amar’e. He can play with great leverage, is fantastic at ball denial, and is really strong.

    Power forwards can back him down low when he plays high.

    But a lot of power forwards today aren’t b2basket guys. They are face up guys trying to win with quickness. Melo has them there obviously. How many b2b fours are there???

    If you do trade for Wallace and get more of the guy in Charlotte, he would always play the biggest threat on the floor between the 3 and 4. So if it’s Miami, he’s playing Lebron. If it’s Dallas, he’s playing Dirk.

    Wallace and Shump can provide a somewhat similar effect to Wade/Lebron,and when you combine a third versatile defender, an elite rim protector and a passing lane, double-team help guy in Lin, that’s potentially devastating.

    So much of the Knicks defensive weakness is Amar’e in pnr.

  6. ruruland

    nicos: As does Melo without even the occasional highlight block.He’s still a better defensive option than Amar’e because Amar’e is about as bad in the pnr as you can be.A lot of Melo’s success defending the post this year has been by stripping the ball and I wonder how sustainable that is- eventually that gets on scouting reports and guys will just keep the ball high and shoot over him.Of course, he’s forced teams to go small to match up with him on the offensive end which alleviates some of the problems.A better defensive option than Amar’e for sure, but I have my doubts about Melo as a 4 over the course of the season.

    Yeah, Melo isn;t a rim protector. Not many 3s are– especially guys who need to stay on the floor. Lebron isn’t a rim protector — his blocks come from behind when foul danger doesn’t exist.

    Wade is just a freak of nature in that regard. But Wallace gives you a second guy who will block shots at the rim and take a ton of charges — something you never see in his defensive value (which is another ridiculous aspect of WS48)

  7. Spree8nyk8

    Which team says no to this deal.

    Brooklyn sends Kris Humphries/Steve Novak (sign and trade)/JR Smith (sign and trade) to Knicks

    Knicks send Amar’e Stoudemire to Brooklyn

  8. afrikan_hermis

    ruruland:
    Let’s remember though that rim protection isn’t about blocking shots it’s about contesting them without fouling.

    Marcus Camby was an amazing shot-blocker but a poor rim protector overal.

    Chandler doesn’t block many shots but he contests almost everything without fouling.

    Amar’e gets out of the way inside, save for the occasional highlight block.

    truth be told dude. that’s why I am STILL lamenting why coach don’t see the point in playing JJ. He patrols the paint like Tyson, always moves to challenge opposing paint intruders, sometimes well above the paint area like Tyson, and with his standing 9’6″ and 7’6″ wing span is able to block some shots and alter a few, beside being a better offensive weapon than even Tyson with his indefensible turn around spinning fade away jumpers! If Woodson will realize the X-factor IN JJ (a la LINSANITY) who can definitely help us survive Stat’s absence AND HELP SAVE HIS job, he won’t hesitate to pair JJ and Tyson as our TWIN TOWER havoc for opposing teams to ALWAYS think about before driving the paint or cutting backdoor!Whenever Tyson leaves the paint to confront an intruder, JJ will cover his back and vice versa! Anybody with me on this??

  9. TelegraphedPass

    afrikan_hermis: truth be told dude. that’s why I am STILL lamenting why coach don’t see the point in playing JJ. He patrols the paint like Tyson, always moves to challenge opposing paint intruders, sometimes well above the paint area like Tyson, and with his standing 9’6? and 7’6? wing span is able to block some shots and alter a few, beside being a better offensive weapon than even Tyson with his indefensible turn around spinning fade away jumpers! If Woodson will realize the X-factor IN JJ (a la LINSANITY) who can definitely help us survive Stat’s absence AND HELP SAVE HIS job, he won’t hesitate to pair JJ and Tyson as our TWIN TOWER havoc for opposing teams to ALWAYS think about before driving the paint or cutting backdoor!Whenever Tyson leaves the paint to confront an intruder, JJ will cover his back and vice versa! Anybody with me on this??

    LMAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOO

  10. TelegraphedPass

    Wait. I think you’re talking about Jerome Jordan. Which is almost as hilarious but I read the whole post thinking Jared Jeffries at first and almost cried laughing.

    I would love to see more minutes from Jerome Jordan as well but I can’t even begin to address everything that’s wrong with that post.

  11. ruruland

    afrikan_hermis: truth be told dude. that’s why I am STILL lamenting why coach don’t see the point in playing JJ. He patrols the paint like Tyson, always moves to challenge opposing paint intruders, sometimes well above the paint area like Tyson, and with his standing 9’6? and 7’6? wing span is able to block some shots and alter a few, beside being a better offensive weapon than even Tysonwith his indefensible turn around spinning fade away jumpers! If Woodson will realize the X-factor IN JJ (a la LINSANITY) who can definitely help us survive Stat’s absence AND HELP SAVE HIS job, he won’t hesitate to pair JJ and Tyson as our TWIN TOWER havoc for opposing teams to ALWAYS think about before driving the paint or cutting backdoor!Whenever Tyson leaves the paint to confront an intruder, JJ will cover his back and vice versa! Anybody with me on this??

    I’d like to see JJ get real minutes.

  12. ruruland

    TelegraphedPass:
    Wait. I think you’re talking about Jerome Jordan. Which is almost as hilarious but I read the whole post thinking Jared Jeffries at first and almost cried laughing.

    I would love to see more minutes from Jerome Jordan as well but I can’t even begin to address everything that’s wrong with that post.

    it is mad-lib kind of funny if you read it as Jeffries.

  13. Brian Cronin

    I’ve been wanting Jordan to get real playing time since January, but the odds of Mike Woodson finally giving him said playing time for the first time in the playoffs? Not good.

  14. nicos

    ruruland: Yeah, Melo isn;t a rim protector. Not many 3s are– especially guys who need to stay on the floor. Lebron isn’t a rim protector — his blocks come from behind when foul danger doesn’t exist.

    Wade is just a freak of nature in that regard. But Wallace gives you a second guy who will block shots at the rim and take a ton of charges — something you never see in his defensive value (which is another ridiculous aspect of WS48)

    I think you’re making a huge gamble assuming Wallace will somehow recapture his Charlotte level of productivity- he’ll still take charges but doesn’t block shots anymore. And he isn’t the same man defender or rebounder he once was. On offense, he’s had one year where he shot the three efficiently- for his career he’s not a great three point shooter and he’s far worse from 16-23 than Amar’e. It’s a lateral move at best.

  15. afrikan_hermis

    ruruland: it is mad-lib kind of funny if you read it as Jeffries.

    Yesooo. does Jeffries have standing reach of 9FEET 6INCHES or 7FOOT 6INCH WING SPAN with a smooth B2B TA jump shot? Have you ever seen Jerome’s shot blocked like Jeffries, Jorts, Amare? I guess it’s my fault to use the abbreviation “JJ”. Frankly I never thought “JJ” may be confused for Jeffries. sorryoooo.

  16. Spree8nyk8

    Spree8nyk8:
    Which team says no to this deal.

    Brooklyn sends Kris Humphries/Steve Novak (sign and trade)/JR Smith (sign and trade) to Knicks

    Knicks send Amar’e Stoudemire to Brooklyn

    ANYONE?

  17. kronicfatigue

    I’ve only been skimming the threads, but has anyone explained WHY he was so mad? Stat should have had PLENTY of time to prepare for that loss. They were down the whole game by a non significant amount of points to a team that would be severely better than them even if the knicks were at full strength. Who reacts so violently when the inevitable happens?

    Of course, he thinks the cornrows look good, so, you know…

  18. afrikan_hermis

    Brian Cronin:
    I’ve been wanting Jordan to get real playing time since January, but the odds of Mike Woodson finally giving him said playing time for the first time in the playoffs? Not good.

    and he is gonna play the slow footed Jorts in Stat’s absence? I don’t mind Jeffries playing in front of Joordan at all, even though NOBODY is afraid of Jeffries but ballers will think twice of the imposing presence of Tyson and “Jordansanity” in the paint. All Woody has to do is burn him for a solid quarter with Tyson and Melo ans see what happens.

  19. Spree8nyk8

    Will the Thrill:
    Brooklyn says no

    Why? They get the best player in the deal and only lose one player off their roster that plays the same position. They need Amar’e to try to get DWill to stay and if DWill leaves anyway they will need a star to headline the team. Why would they say no?

  20. Brian Cronin

    I’ve only been skimming the threads, but has anyone explained WHY he was so mad? Stat should have had PLENTY of time to prepare for that loss. They were down the whole game by a non significant amount of points to a team that would be severely better than them even if the knicks were at full strength. Who reacts so violently when the inevitable happens?

    Of course, he thinks the cornrows look good, so, you know…

    He was not just mad about the loss. He was mad that he only took nine shots. He likely felt that the team would have done better had they made a more concerted effort to get him the ball. So he was doubly frustrated – the loss plus not getting enough shots.

  21. Brian Cronin

    I think you have to go in with the position that no team in the NBA wants STAT. That might be untrue (only the other GMs know that for sure), but I think you have to look at it from that perspective when thinking about possible STAT trades. Teams might take him, but no one else specifically wants him at his high salary, declining skills and, perhaps most importantly, uninsured contract.

    New Jersey, for instance, would likely prefer to just keep the cap room from letting Hump leave rather than get STAT.

  22. JC Knickfan

    Brooklyn probably target Lin if D Wills leaves. Amare is 30 he not star player they going build around. Lin also going generate great ticket sales. I think we stuck with Amare between 1 1/2 to 2 years before could trade in non-crappy deal.

    We just need a coach with balls put him 6th role and depending how he play will end the game or not.

  23. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Who was it on this board who said that we’d be looking to unload Amar’e’s contract by 2013? I didn’t think it’d happen so soon, but… oh, yes, it was me.

    lul

  24. Brian Cronin

    Most longterm MAX contracts have good odds that the team will regret the contract at the end of the deal (Joe Johnson, for instance, is making even more than STAT!).

  25. JC Knickfan

    Brian Cronin: He was not just mad about the loss. He was mad that he only took nine shots. He likely felt that the team would have done better had they made a more concerted effort to get him the ball. So he was doubly frustrated – the loss plus not getting enough shots.

    He been top scorer of team before Melo came. He probably saying I shot 9 time and have 18 pts. Give me the damn ball while hitting glass window of fire extinguisher.

    It doesn’t seem like Melo and him are buddies like Wade and Lebron.

  26. Z-man

    Guys, I know we can argue that Amare is a good guy and a warrior and all that, but since the back injury there has been a definite change in his ability to move and react. He is not just a poor decision-maker, he’s 1) getting beat off the dribble by much slower guys, 2) running into dead ends on his drive to the basket…via blocks against, offensive fouls, strips, and travels. Guys can stay right up on him and not worry about getting beat off the dribble, and he’s not hitting his jumper consistently anyway.

    Unless he has a miracle operation on his back, the guy is just done in the same way that Baron and Bibby are done. He will still block the occasional shot and make the power dunk, but overall, he has lost the edge and explosiveness and lift that made him a force up to the back injury. On top of that, he is a narrow guy with a high center of gravity, so he is easily boxed out and outrebounded on both ends. Come on, guys, you aren’t blind…how many times last night did his absolutely terrible positioning and reactions on D get your attention? That inbounds play to Battier(I think) was the lowlight for me.

    I hate to say it because I loved what he did for us up until game one vs. the Celts last year, but we will absolutely be better off without him for the rest of this series.

  27. Z-man

    Brian Cronin: He was not just mad about the loss. He was mad that he only took nine shots. He likely felt that the team would have done better had they made a more concerted effort to get him the ball. So he was doubly frustrated – the loss plus not getting enough shots.

    Of course, this is complete conjecture.

  28. daJudge

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Who was it on this board who said that we’d be looking to unload Amar’e’s contract by 2013? I didn’t think it’d happen so soon, but… oh, yes, it was me.

    lul

    Your prediction of the disk injury was sheer brilliance.

  29. nicos

    On another topic- any chance BD comes back next year? He’s still getting paid 14.8 mil by the Cavs next season and I can’t see anyone offering him more than that even over three years. My guess is he plays for the minimum again next year and hopes to play well enough to get a 3 year mid-level deal. I think he’d be a really good 15 minute a night guy esp. with a year to get used to the fact that he’s nowhere near as athletic as he used to be- right now it seems he’s never quite where he expects himself when driving to the hoop. He might find a better situation than here if he’s willing to take that role (maybe Miami or the Lakers) but I’d say there’s a decent chance he’d come back.

  30. Spree8nyk8

    Brian Cronin:
    I think you have to go in with the position that no team in the NBA wants STAT. That might be untrue (only the other GMs know that for sure), but I think you have to look at it from that perspective when thinking about possible STAT trades. Teams might take him, but no one else specifically wants him at his high salary, declining skills and, perhaps most importantly, uninsured contract.

    New Jersey, for instance, would likely prefer to just keep the cap room from letting Hump leave rather than get STAT.

    letting hump leave? didn’t they just resign him? Was it only a one year deal? idk what good the cap room is with nobody to spend it on. I mean they are going to lose the only star they have and are likely to lose their draft pick this year. So you think they would rather go to brooklyn with a bunch of no names than trade humphries for stat? I really disagree with that. Amar’e can still be plenty successful in this league, he just needs to be on the right team. He’s just not a fit on this team but he can still play. I think Brooklyn takes that trade all day.

  31. nicos

    Z-man:
    Guys, I know we can argue that Amare is a good guy and a warrior and all that, but since the back injury there has been a definite change in his ability to move and react.He is not just a poor decision-maker, he’s 1) getting beat off the dribble by much slower guys, 2) running into dead ends on his drive to the basket…via blocks against, offensive fouls, strips, and travels. Guys can stay right up on him and not worry about getting beat off the dribble, and he’s not hitting his jumper consistently anyway.

    Unless he has a miracle operation on his back, the guy is just done in the same way that Baron and Bibby are done.He will still block the occasional shot and make the power dunk, but overall, he has lost the edge and explosiveness and lift that made him a force up to the back injury.On top of that, he is a narrow guy with a high center of gravity, so he is easily boxed out and outrebounded on both ends. Come on, guys, you aren’t blind…how many times last night did his absolutely terrible positioning and reactions on D get your attention? That inbounds play to Battier(I think) was the lowlight for me.

    I hate to say it because I loved what he did for us up until game one vs. the Celts last year, but we will absolutely be better off without him for the rest of this series.

    In 18 Post all-star break games this year he averaged 31.4 minutes, 17.6 pts. with a TS% of .597, a pretty decent rebound rate of 14.2 and a solid TO% of 11.2 as well. I think the question of how often he’s going to be healthy going forward is a legitimate one but once he lost the extra weight he’d put on in the off-season he was moving pretty well and was effective- at least offensively. There’s no comparison between he and Baron or Bibby. Again, if you can get something decent for him go ahead and trade him but he’s not useless, at least not yet.

  32. hoolahoop

    I think they should rename this site FANBOY MELO, or my preference, HEY MELO, HOW ABOUT PASSING THE FUCKING BALL!
    T

  33. tastycakes

    Spree, I actually agree that the Nets would take that trade.

    First: Billy King is a grade A idiot GM. He is one of the few guys I can plausibly imagine thinks that STAT is redeemable (hey, he might be, and I’m actually rooting for him).

    Second: STAT is popular in New York and maybe it does influence Deron. Maybe it doesn’t. I think Deron is going to Dallas. NJ/Brooklyn is dysfunctional and Deron isn’t buying in.

    Third: I think it’s a clever solution for retaining Smith and Novak and getting something else in the deal — a fierce rebounder at the 4 would be nice.

    But the answer to your final question is that Humphries is a free agent who signed a one-year deal. So, it’d have to be a sign-3-and-trade? Can they do that?

    I think STAT will be back. There are plenty of totally legit reasons why he never got going this year — recovering from injury, the situation with his brother, no training camp, never getting into a rhythm with Lin and Melo and Tyson — and you probably don’t want to trade low if there’s ANY chance he rebounds and becomes a useful player. He’s never going to fully live up to his contract, but I think he can find a valuable role. That said, I’m also open to trading him.

  34. hoolahoop

    The day the knicks signed Melo was the day the etched their curse in blood. Amare is a good guy who came to the knicks when they had NOBODY. A ragtag team was making a run for the playoffs and Amare was an MVP candidate.
    Melo’s record for playoff games is something like 16-37. And his record on the knicks is something like 50-50.

  35. Z-man

    nicos: In 18 Post all-star break games this year he averaged 31.4 minutes, 17.6 pts. with a TS% of .597, a pretty decent rebound rate of 14.2 and a solid TO% of 11.2 as well. I think the question of how often he’s going to be healthy going forward is a legitimate one but once he lost the extra weight he’d put on in the off-season he was moving pretty well and was effective- at least offensively. There’s no comparison between he and Baron or Bibby. Again, if you can get something decent for him go ahead and trade him but he’s not useless, at least not yet.

    He is not useless, but on our team, he is a detriment. I agree that he was playing better, but then his back went out and he was back to square one. If that stretch is the best we can expect from him, both in terms of length and production, he is a huge liability for the money. And I agree also that comparing him to Baron and Bibby is going too far, but keep in mind that those 2 guys are on vet’s minimum contracts, and neither would play if we had a better answer.

  36. hoolahoop

    Z-man:
    Guys, I know we can argue that Amare is a good guy and a warrior and all that, but since the back injury there has been a definite change in his ability to move and react.He is not just a poor decision-maker, he’s 1) getting beat off the dribble by much slower guys, 2) running into dead ends on his drive to the basket…via blocks against, offensive fouls, strips, and travels. Guys can stay right up on him and not worry about getting beat off the dribble, and he’s not hitting his jumper consistently anyway.

    Unless he has a miracle operation on his back, the guy is just done in the same way that Baron and Bibby are done.He will still block the occasional shot and make the power dunk, but overall, he has lost the edge and explosiveness and lift that made him a force up to the back injury.On top of that, he is a narrow guy with a high center of gravity, so he is easily boxed out and outrebounded on both ends. Come on, guys, you aren’t blind…how many times last night did his absolutely terrible positioning and reactions on D get your attention? That inbounds play to Battier(I think) was the lowlight for me.

    I hate to say it because I loved what he did for us up until game one vs. the Celts last year, but we will absolutely be better off without him for the rest of this series.

    I know you feel for Amare. I do too.
    I think he still has a lot of game in him. He’s just demoralized, frustrated and doesn’t know how to fit in with Melo’s selfish style. Melo shoots incessantly and plays a losing brand of basketball.

  37. massive

    Marc J. Spears ? @SpearsNBAYahoo

    Knicks center Tyson Chandler to be named NBA Defensive Player of the Year tomorrow at team practice facility, source tells

  38. nicos

    Z-man: He is not useless, but on our team, he is a detriment.I agree that he was playing better, but then his back went out and he was back to square one. If that stretch is the best we can expect from him, both in terms of length and production, he is a huge liability for the money.And I agree also that comparing him to Baron and Bibby is going too far, but keep in mind that those 2 guys are on vet’s minimum contracts, and neither would play if we had a better answer.

    If that’s the best he could do in terms of length then obviously yes- in terms of production, if he put up those usage/ts% numbers for a full season he’d be as efficient a scoring big as there is in the league and an above average rebounder for a regular rotation 4. Still a crappy defender but hardly a detriment to the team. If he can shake the back issues I think he and Lin can get on the same page pretty easily and you’ll see him put up a TS% somewhere in high 50’s/low 60s over a full season again. He’s not worth a max deal but it’s not worth just dumping him for the sake of dumping him either.

  39. Z-man

    hoolahoop: I know you feel for Amare. I do too.I think he still has a lot of game in him. He’s just demoralized, frustrated and doesn’t know how to fit in with Melo’s selfish style. Melo shoots incessantly and plays a losing brand of basketball.

    Even if this is true (and it was in the second half yesterday) Melo isn’t going anywhere for the next 3 years. Amare isn’t gonna make Melo change, only Melo and/or the right coach can do that. There is no denying that Amare’s D has not been NBA-caliber for this entire year, and you can’t blame that on Melo. It is sickening to watch him get beat on the opponent’s strong side time after time after time. It is sickening to watch him stand there when a perimeter defender gets beat without offering any help, again, time after time after time. It is sickening to watch him get hardly any offensive rebounds game after game after game. If he could become a Horace Grant-type player right now (similar physique) I would be thrilled, but it has to start on the defensive end.

  40. massive

    No congratulations for T-1000? The man won DPOY honors. When was the last time the Knicks had one of those?

  41. Z-man

    nicos: If that’s the best he could do in terms of length then obviously yes- in terms of production, if he put up those usage/ts% numbers for a full season he’d be as efficient a scoring big as there is in the league and an above average rebounder for a regular rotation 4. Still a crappy defender but hardly a detriment to the team. If he can shake the back issues I think he and Lin can get on the same page pretty easily and you’ll see him put up a TS% somewhere in high 50?s/low 60s over a full season again. He’s not worth a max deal but it’s not worth just dumping him for the sake of dumping him either.

    Then we obviously have different opinions about the importance of defense. I would contend that he is an absolutely putrid defender and a mediocre rebounder at best for a playoff 4, especially on the offensive boards. Defense and rebounding win championships. (He is also not much of a passer, which only compounds his problems.)

  42. d-mar

    massive:
    No congratulations for T-1000? The man won DPOY honors. When was the last time the Knicks had one of those?

    I think it’s totally deserved.

    Guys, we have the DPOY, a possible future contender for DPOY (Shump), a bonafide scoring machine (Melo) and a pretty decent PG with a decent upside (Lin). And all we can talk about is Amare’s contract? I think that’s a pretty decent core going forward, and with a full training camp, I’m excited to see what that group (plus some brilliantly added parts courtesy of Mr. Grunwald) can do next season.

  43. Z-man

    Don’t get me wrong, I want Amare to excel as much as anybody, but after watching the defensive commitment of the Bulls, Celts and Heat, I have concerns about whether he can make that kind of commitment, either physically or mentally. We’ll see, I guess, since he isn’t going anywhere soon.

  44. max fisher-cohen

    I don’t think Melo has played all that selfishly. I just think he’s a wing and an ISO player, which means all you have to do is pretty much give him the ball and watch, and that’s easier to do than run a pick and roll, read the defense, make the right play (which won’t always be getting it into STAT), so Melo ends up getting more shots. It’s the path of least resistance, and it’s been effective for the better part of a month, so it’s no surprise the team was unprepared to go back to STAT. The real issue isn’t with STAT or Melo. It’s with the fact that neither is particularly productive when off the ball, and both make a shit ton of money, and (Mr. Dolan, I’m talking to you!) there is only one basketball.

  45. Z-man

    Melo has shown lately that he is at least capable of playing good defense. Amare has been a major defensive liability all year. Defense is half the game and Amare just hasn’t been cuttin’ it.

  46. max fisher-cohen

    BTW, could there be any more boring games on than Boston/Atlanta and Philly/Atlanta? A bunch of teams going nowhere who play slow, methodical basketball.

  47. max fisher-cohen

    Z-Man, Who cares if he can’t play defense? His teams have won with him as the primary option even when he’s taken naps on the defensive end. Clearly, his virtuoso offensive game is enough to overcome his defense if you play him in the right sort of system. The carping about Stoudemire’s defense when everyone in the world knows that he’s a crap defender isn’t productive. The important question here for everyone thinking “SELL HIM NOW! I WANT HIM GONE!” is, will you get enough for Stoudemire to make this team a contender?

    The answer to that to me is a resounding NO. Humphries and G.Wallace? That’s not even enough to replace the production of Novak and Smith.

    So — You end up with these choices

    1) Trade Stoudemire and resign yourself to 50 wins and first round playoff exits galore.

    2) Try to build a team where Stoudemire gets to take shots and play a style where he is productive.

  48. ruruland

    max fisher-cohen:
    . It’s the path of least resistance, and it’s been effective for the better part of a month, so it’s no surprise the team was unprepared to go back to STAT. The real issue isn’t with STAT or Melo. It’s with the fact that neither is particularly productive when off the ball,

    Amar’e is extremely productive off the ball. But that’s a somewhat more complex concept.

    Melo’s most efficient seasons have been where 50-60 percent of baskets were assisted (and those seasons occurred when he played with a passing point guard, and a penetrating two guard). That’s off ball production– catch and shoot, transition, over-the-top-lobs (he used to lead the league in alley-oops when teams fronted him) some pick and roll and cuts to the basket.

    Moreover, the Knicks ran a lot of pick and roll last night. I mean a lot of it. The major difference from games 1 and 2 was that isolation came after mutliple screen actions or dribble hand-offs.

    What happened on those pick and rolls? Well, a couple of times the Heat trapped and it led to a dunk. But most of the time it lead to a pass back to one of the wings. There was no penetration from it, and rarely was there a big-enough passing window to get the ball to the screener.

    So, it wasn’t like the Knicks were just handing the ball to Melo last night. They tried to get a balanced, continuity-based offense. Unfortunately, against a defense like that, without dribble penetration, you’re not going to get many decent shots. Oftentimes the play was reduced to Davis or Melo heaving it because the screen action was shut down and the Heat overplayed the pass back to the wing (replacing the screener).

    So, no, it has nothing to do with “not giving it enough effort to run a team offense.”

    cont…..

  49. heavencent35

    Hi guys. Ive been following your blog I am from the Phillipines. I just recently registered becaus eI want to share my thoughts. Anyway, Ive been a Knicks fan since Penny brought his talents in NY =)

  50. Z-man

    Who cares if he can’t play defense? Just about any NBA coach (especially those who have won championships) other than D’Antoni, and a preponderance of intelligent Knicks fans.

  51. heavencent35

    Also I really hate you guys hatin Melo. As a fans all we need to do is support our guy / team. Remember when we chant MVP during the latter days of the regular season?

  52. ruruland

    Do you think the Knicks offense could generate good shots in the half-court if the Melo isolation was eliminated, and Fields, a good pick and roll player, replaced Melo?

    Look at the struggles of other “balanced-attack” offenses that have more overall talent playing against inferior defenses.

    Shot creation and dribble penetration is much more valuable in the offense. Right now the Heat aren’t doubling Melo, just using their great individual defense and super-fast help. But until Baron Davis starts effectively running pick and roll, and Fields starts effectively running side pick and roll or driving off pick and roll — the best shots come when Melo and Jr take their own shots, or drive to create them.

  53. heavencent35

    For stat, he just need to play for his strengths. Yes he is not a good defender and he is a bad rebounder but he still have the other talents that makes him better compare to maybe 50 percent of NBA players. I still believe in this team. We just need to focus and sharpen our chemistry for next season. THis team could easily be top 3 in the east with this current line up we just need to play together.

  54. heavencent35

    ruruland:
    Do you think the Knicks offense could generate good shots in the half-court if the Melo isolation was eliminated, and Fields, a good pick and roll player, replaced Melo?

    Look at the struggles of other “balanced-attack” offenses that have more overall talent playing against inferior defenses.

    Shot creation and dribble penetration is much more valuable in the offense. Right now the Heat aren’t doubling Melo, just using their great individual defense and super-fast help. But until Baron Davis starts effectively running pick and roll, and Fields starts effectively running side pick and roll or driving off pick and roll — the best shots come when Melo and Jr take their own shots, or drive to create them.

    make sense!

  55. ruruland

    max fisher-cohen:
    Z-Man, Who cares if he can’t play defense? His teams have won with him as the primary option even when he’s taken naps on the defensive end. Clearly, his virtuoso offensive game is enough to overcome his defense if you play him in the right sort of system. The carping about Stoudemire’s defense when everyone in the world knows that he’s a crap defender isn’t productive. The important question here for everyone thinking “SELL HIM NOW! I WANT HIM GONE!” is, will you get enough for Stoudemire to make this team a contender?

    The answer to that to me is a resounding NO. Humphries and G.Wallace? That’s not even enough to replace the production of Novak and Smith.

    So — You end up with these choices

    1) Trade Stoudemire and resign yourself to 50 wins and first round playoff exits galore.

    2) Try to build a team where Stoudemire gets to take shots and play a style where he is productive.

    Max, the system where he is most effective and becomes a very valuable player overall is one where team defense is sacrificed.

    The two things are mutually exclusive. You cannot maximize Amar’e’s talents when you have a paint-oriented big man, the kind of player you have to have to be effective on defense with Amar’e.

    That’s the key to this whole argument.

    It’s a catch-22. Moreover, moving Melo to the 4 and adding versatile wings improves both the offense and defense from what it is now.

  56. 2FOR18

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Who was it on this board who said that we’d be looking to unload Amar’e’s contract by 2013? I didn’t think it’d happen so soon, but… oh, yes, it was me.

    lul

    I think you are also one of the people who think D Rose is overrated, an that the Bulls aren’t losing much without him. If I’m wrong I apologize.

  57. 2FOR18

    max fisher-cohen:
    Z-Man, Who cares if he can’t play defense? His teams have won with him as the primary option even when he’s taken naps on the defensive end. Clearly, his virtuoso offensive game is enough to overcome his defense if you play him in the right sort of system. The carping about Stoudemire’s defense when everyone in the world knows that he’s a crap defender isn’t productive. The important question here for everyone thinking “SELL HIM NOW! I WANT HIM GONE!” is, will you get enough for Stoudemire to make this team a contender?

    The answer to that to me is a resounding NO. Humphries and G.Wallace? That’s not even enough to replace the production of Novak and Smith.

    So — You end up with these choices

    1) Trade Stoudemire and resign yourself to 50 wins and first round playoff exits galore.

    2) Try to build a team where Stoudemire gets to take shots and play a style where he is productive.

    If you trade Amare for Wallace and Morrow, you have enough cap room to sign Novak and JR.
    Imagine the offensive and defensive possibilities with a line-up of Lin, Shump, Wallace, Melo and Tyson, with JR, Novak, Jeffries, Jorts and Jordan off the bench. I love that.

  58. nicos

    ruruland:
    Do you think the Knicks offense could generate good shots in the half-court if the Melo isolation was eliminated, and Fields, a good pick and roll player, replaced Melo?

    Look at the struggles of other “balanced-attack” offenses that have more overall talent playing against inferior defenses.

    Shot creation and dribble penetration is much more valuable in the offense. Right now the Heat aren’t doubling Melo, just using their great individual defense and super-fast help. But until Baron Davis starts effectively running pick and roll, and Fields starts effectively running side pick and roll or driving off pick and roll — the best shots come when Melo and Jr take their own shots, or drive to create them.

    Well, Melo’s TS% is .435 over the first two games so he must not be getting/creating very good shots for himself. They didn’t double him much last night and other guys- Davis, Smith, Amar’e, and Chandler- all still managed to have good shooting games. Melo is a very good and willing passer when he faces a double team but if he’s not doubled he’s going to put it up more often than not whether or not it’s the best shot the team can get.

  59. 2FOR18

    2FOR18: If you trade Amare for Wallace and Morrow, you have enough cap room to sign Novak and JR.
    Imagine the offensive and defensive possibilities with a line-up ofLin, Shump, Wallace, Melo and Tyson, with JR, Novak, Jeffries, Jorts and Jordan off the bench.I love that.

    oops, and throw Morrow in there somewhere :)

  60. ruruland

    nicos: Well, Melo’s TS% is .435 over the first two games so he must not be getting/creating very good shots for himself. They didn’t double him much last night and other guys- Davis, Smith, Amar’e, and Chandler- all still managed to have good shooting games.Melo is a very good and willing passer when he faces a double team but if he’s not doubled he’s going to put it up more often than not whether or not it’s the best shot the team can get.

    Durant’s is similar, a lot of high-usage guys have struggled against much less effective defenses.

    Do you think that’s because these players are selfish, forcing the offense and going away from what should work? Or do you think that it’s in fact the opposite, that the intended offense isn’t working and so the shot-creators are often left to create shots late in the clock?

  61. ruruland

    You need to consider that the other players are taking shots when they are present and available — but that’s the whole thing — they aren’t available. I will say this though, Amar’e should have gotten more isolations.

  62. Juany8

    ruruland:
    Owen, what’s going on with Denver’s GREAT offense???

    Denver has scored 2 points in the half court so far. It’s honestly pretty funny watching how lopsided this series is, as soon as Bynum touches the ball they double without thought. Luckily Bynum’s biggest weakness is passing out of double teams, hasn’t had enough reps doing it across his career.

  63. nicos

    ruruland:
    Do you think that’s because these players are selfish, forcing the offense and going away from what should work? Or do you think that it’s in fact the opposite, that the intended offense isn’t working and so the shot-creators are often left to create shots late in the clock?

    I think it’s a bit of both- Melo had to take some bailout shots but he also settled for a few too many 17 footers. Part of the issue is the Knicks (esp. Bibby but Melo and Davis a few times as well) have been way too content to walk the ball up- barely beating the 8 second count on a couple of occasions- and have been late getting into their sets. Two, they’ve got three perimeter guys in Fields, Smith, and Novak, who are incredibly slow getting the ball out of their hands when the ball gets kicked back out to them. Novak especially has been horrible in this series- if he doesn’t shoot it you can pretty much count on 3-5 seconds running off of the clock before he can move the ball and even then he’s just getting to the next guy on the perimeter.
    As for Melo- I thought the Heat just took him out of the first game but last night I thought he held the ball and waited for a double that never came and then settled for jumpers on a number of occasions. I think there were more opportunities for him to take one or two dribbles to force some defensive movement and then swing the ball back to Davis to get something going towards the basket. It happened a couple of times but it should be a steady part of the offense if they’re not going to double Melo on the catch. He’s also got to get more comfortable in the pnr- he’s really good at it so I’m puzzled that he hasn’t embraced it more. Just be a little bit more diverse and I think it could really pay dividends.

  64. max fisher-cohen

    ruruland: Max, the system where he is most effective and becomes a very valuable player overall is one where team defense is sacrificed.

    The two things are mutually exclusive. You cannot maximize Amar’e’s talents when you have a paint-oriented big man, the kind of player you have to have to be effective on defense with Amar’e.

    That’s the key to this whole argument.

    It’s a catch-22. Moreover, moving Melo to the 4 and adding versatile wings improves both the offense and defense from what it is now.

    On Phoenix:

    Shaq: 30 MPG 08/09
    Shaq: 29 MPG in 07/08

    Amar’e was fine then. The reason Amar’e has struggled this season statistically is because he was playing without a point guard and with 3 wing players who were shooting threes at the time about as well as I do. Even Smith struggled mightily from deep before Amar’e got hurt.

    The only guy who shot WELL when Amar’e was healthy was Novak, and what do you know, Amar’e’s FG% is 59% with Novak on the floor compared to 47% with Novak off the court: http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#Amar%27e-Stoudemire-vs-Steve-Novak|2405,200779;year=201112;season=r

    His per 36 minute numbers with Novak on the floor with him: 23.5 points, 9.4 FTAs, +5.8 points.

    I am confident that if the health situations of Amar’e and Stoudemire had been reversed, if Melo missed the last month of hte season when all our shooters came to life, we would be having this exact conversation about Melo struggling… He did, after all, struggle just as badly as STAT early in the season.

    The problem is with Stoudemire and Melo at 3 and 4, there is no floor spacing. You can talk about how Stoudemire and Melo COULD be good off the ball or HAVE been good off the ball in past lives, but the bottom line is that the team struggles when they’re together.

  65. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    2FOR18: I think you are also one of the people who think D Rose is overrated, an that the Bulls aren’t losing much without him.If I’m wrong I apologize.

    You’re wrong. Rose was amazing this year and last. Not LeBron good, but definitely top 10 in the league.

  66. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    daJudge: Your prediction of the disk injury was sheer brilliance.

    One plus one is two all day long, bro. That’s factorial. When am I wrong?

  67. ruruland

    max fisher-cohen: On Phoenix:

    Shaq: 30 MPG 08/09
    Shaq: 29 MPG in 07/08

    Amar’e was fine then. The reason Amar’e has struggled this season statistically is because he was playing without a point guard and with 3 wing players who were shooting threes at the time about as well as I do. Even Smith struggled mightily from deep before Amar’e got hurt.

    The only guy who shot WELL when Amar’e was healthy was Novak, and what do you know, Amar’e’s FG% is 59% with Novak on the floor compared to 47% with Novak off the court: http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#Amar%27e-Stoudemire-vs-Steve-Novak|2405,200779;year=201112;season=r

    His per 36 minute numbers with Novak on the floor with him: 23.5 points, 9.4 FTAs, +5.8 points.

    I am confident that if the health situations of Amar’e and Stoudemire had been reversed, if Melo missed the last month of hte season when all our shooters came to life, we would be having this exact conversation about Melo struggling… He did, after all, struggle just as badly as STAT early in the season.

    The problem is with Stoudemire and Melo at 3 and 4, there is no floor spacing. You can talk about how Stoudemire and Melo COULD be good off the ball or HAVE been good off the ball in past lives, but the bottom line is that the team struggles when they’re together.

    I’ll get to this later.

  68. 2FOR18

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: You’re wrong. Rose was amazing this year and last. Not LeBron good, but definitely top 10 in the league.

    Then I apologize. There was a lot of Rose bashing on here as an inefficient chucker, and since you’re such a numbers guy I incorrectly assumed you were one of the bashers.

  69. 2FOR18

    ruruland:
    Maybe I’m out of the loop here, but are we supposed to take THCJ seriously?

    Are we supposed to take a guy who switched from a Nuggets fan to a Knicks fan because he got bashed on Nuggets blogs for his melo love seriously?

Comments are closed.