Z-man: I wonder what the great Dean Oliver would say to this…

Probably…

A. Who on earth cares what you call it if it measures the same thing?

B. You don’t seem to have a working understanding of what the stat is meant to measure based on your objections to its use of “possession.”

spydermaan: Mr. Caleb, exactly why I say this STAT is flawed because it doesn’t factor in the effect of the Oreb because the statisticians who came up with this know that it will be low for every team.

Again… you don’t understand the stat. It does account for ORebs. Your argument is blatantly wrong. I’m sure there are legitimate reasons to criticize this as a stat. Not accounting for ORebs is just not one of them. I can’t believe that we have been arguing about this stat for a week or so now, and you have not yet bothered to gain a working understanding of the stat. It would take about 10 minutes to google some explanations.

Z-man: And I believe a 18-ft turnaround fade-away with a hand in your face should worth more than a wide open 22 footer from the corner. Unfortunately, the rule book says differently.

The rule book is defining it for a different purpose: the shot clock. No one is arguing the shot clock doesn’t reset after the ball hits the rim/bboard. You are arguing against a strawman.

Z-man: the (flawed) assumption is that possessions even out in every game and don’t need to be considered.

Apparently you don’t understand the stat either. No one makes the assumption that “rulebook possessions” even out. They make the assumption that “stat possessions” even out.

Z-man: I only wanted to refute Ted’s unnecessarily dismissive and, worse, grossly inaccurate characterization of what turns out to be the only correct definition of the word in the context of NBA basketball.

No. You are incorrect. If we are talking about referees you are correct. If we are talking about stats… you are incorrect.

Z-man: you shouldn’t mess with the definitions of “offensive rebound” or “point” or “shot” in defining “efficiency” for the sake of expediency, at least in my opinion.

No one messed with any of those 3. You are way out there in left field.

Z-man: In baseball, slugging pct. essentially counts a double as “two hits,” but it is explained that it really means “total bases per at-bat” and does not alter the definition of a hit as per the rules.

Again… you are arguing about SEMANTICS. If we simply call them “stat possessions” and “rulebook possessions” you would be happy, or at least have no point. Do you not see how petty that is?

Z-man: Caleb, you could simply clarify the needed “multiplier” by defining offensive efficiency as total points / (# of possessions minus # of offensive rebounds) or something like that. Just don’t call it “points per possession”.

Again… going on and on in an OCD manner about words. Who cares what you call it? In baseball you are not given an AB when you fly out if the runner on 3B tags up… you would be given an AB if you hit a grounder to the right side that results in the same runner scoring… is that fair? That’s how an AB is defined. Doesn’t make it better…

Z-man: As such, you (or your sources) actually ARE making stuff up.

No, you did not read my comments and are the one making stuff up. I never once talked about NBA rules. Please show me where I did. I talked about stats. I specifically said countless times that I was defining possessions as a statistical construct.

You are getting into semantics. Word-play. As I’ve said countless times in this thread, the same word can have different definitions in different contexts. I made it very clear what context I was talking about. If you did not read what I wrote or did not understand it… I can’t help you.

Z-man: The rule book says that there is indeed a purgatory, to use your language, and the fact that the 24 second clock resets on an offensive rebound

Again smart guy, where did I ever once argue otherwise???????? I argued that this IS the case. I then said it doesn’t matter at all for stats. I never once talked about the rule book. If the baseball rule book defines a win as a pitcher stat and not a team stat (no idea if it does or doesn’t)… that doesn’t make it true. We are arguing apples and oranges.

Caleb:
That wasn’t too clear – what I mean is, if you count a missed shot/O-rebound as multiple posessions, then you end up with a team’s offensive efficiency being lower for every offensive rebound they gather in. That doesn’t make sense.

You could also modify the terminology to “points per ncp” where ncp refers to non-consecutive possessions in a quarter. Doing this would maintain the integrity of the advanced statistic and the definition of the component statistic.

I wonder what the great Dean Oliver would say to this…

Z-man:
Has anyone been following the Shumpert workout videos? Can’t read too much into it but the kid is an absolutely sick athlete and an awesome attitude.Would love to see him play in some of these pickup games with the pros, anything!!

Only thing I dont like is he does too many drills shooting 18-20 foot jumpers lol

Work on your damn 3pt shooting and ball-handling!!