Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, September 2, 2014

Donnie Walsh Goes All In?

As a Knick fan if you suffered through the Rookie/Sophomore game, you probably did so to find out more about the latest trade rumors. Just about everybody has reported that the Knicks have offered Danilo Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Eddy Curry and a first-round pick to the Nuggets for Carmelo Anthony, Chauncey Billups, and other players that would fit under the salary cap. First and foremost, I’d like to remind everyone that this isn’t an official deal. It’s very possible that this trade will never come to fruition, and considering the numerous false reports “leaked” in the Carmelo Anthony saga it’s quite possible that this is yet another one of those.

However assuming that Donnie Walsh has offered this to Denver, it appears that he’s gone, as they would say in poker, “all-in.” Knick fans have been hoping that the team wouldn’t lose two of Chandler, Gallo, and Fields, and unfortunately it appears that scenario may occur. For many Knick fans, standing pat seemed to be an ideal move for New York with Carmelo’s ability to leave Denver without any compensation giving the Knicks some leverage. An offer that doesn’t strip the team of too much of it’s young assets seemed reasonable.

Nevertheless it seems that Walsh, sitting across from New Jersey’s Prokhorov, has blinked only a day after I espoused Walsh’s ability to remain calm under pressure. Consider that the Knicks will have to trade Anthony Randolph to acquire the first round pick, it means that they’ve dumped 3 of their 4 youngest players to get Carmelo. Should this transaction come to fruition, New York’s best chances for improvement come from Landry Fields (22 years old), Bill Walker (23), Toney Douglas (24), Timofey Mozgov (24), and Andy Rautins (24). Other than Fields, none of these players are probable NBA starters down the road.

Mind you, Chauncey Billups is a major upgrade over Raymond Felton. Granted Felton is nearly a decade younger, but Billups is a much better shooter, an area that Felton has been severly lacking in. However Billups is 34 years old, and isn’t likely to keep this up for much longer.

In the end, this trade is all about Carmelo Anthony. As I’ve said in the past, I don’t think he’s a great fit for New York. Carmelo is a good isolation scorer, but isn’t a good defender and he’s a career 31.1% three point shooter. None of those seem to fit in with a D’Antoni coached team. Nonetheless, I’m likely in the minority on this issue. North of my view of the spectrum, Anthony is anywhere from a major upgrade over Chandler and Gallinari, to a top 10 player in the league. He is an 25 ppg scorer that can take the load off of Amar’e and can take over the offense in clutch time. And perhaps his arrival could open the door for other stars like Chris Paul, Deron Williams, or Dwight Howard.

Should this deal go through, the team is throwing everything behind Carmelo Anthony. It will be up to D’Antoni and the coaching staff to integrate Anthony and Billups, as well as do with a shorter bench. Perhaps there’s another move that will bring another quality center into the fold, since that would be one major area New York didn’t address. Ultimately should this trade be consummated, it will be the defining move of the Donnie Walsh era.

424 comments on “Donnie Walsh Goes All In?

  1. New Guy

    Mike, first off thanks for the quick write up. Second, why are you so sure Walsh is blinking? I just assumed Dolan overruled him. Last, fwiw, I’m in the minority with you.

  2. totti

    basketball wise is a good trade

    money wise? how much money left to be contender?
    miami spends the same for their 3…………..

  3. Tyler Murray

    If it’s real: I’m glad the Knicks would keep Fields and Mozgov. Duh.

    As for player’s they’d lose, AR wasn’t playing anyway and Chandler is probably going to command a pretty big contract in the offseason

    So if we look at it as Felton/Gallo for Billups/Melo, it looks pretty reasonable.

    But then there’s the money! How can they have cap room for a 3rd star with those 2 MASSIVE contracts?

    I don’t despise this trade, but I’m having a real hard time thinking about a Knicks team without Gallo, Chandler, or Felton. I knew they’d have to give up some pieces…but gosh darnit.

  4. BigBlueAL

    Looking at it like that and just in a pure basketball standpoint Felton/Gallo for Billups/Melo is a steal for the Knicks never mind it being reasonable.

    But I understand its not that simple.

  5. New Guy

    I just cant believe the nuggets got the knicks to panic over a third incarnation of the nets deal plus a few well placed leaks from melo’s camp. It was a hail Mary pass that somehow connected.

    And I’m down on melo before he even gets here. He sacrificed better teammates and a better chance to win to get his extension.

  6. Degree Absolute

    I just don’t see how this trade makes us better. We get older and even worse on D. It will still be a struggle to get out of the first round.

  7. Z

    Several things:
    1) I agree with others that it is Dolan blinking, no Walsh, and Donnie, with his lame duck status, doesn’t have much choice but abide his master’s wishes.
    2) I’m not so sure I would include Chandler in the “I’m okay with losing one, but not two of _____”. I think Chandler’s contract status and skill set make him a definite goner in any Carmelo to the Knicks move (either trade or FA this summer), so his inclusion should be a foregone conclusion. I think one of Gallo, Fields, Randolph, or Mozgov on top of Chandler is as realistic as anyone could reasonably argue would happen. Anything more is too much. Anything less unrealistic.
    3) Is Anthony Randolph part of this proposed trade, or is the pick inclusionindependent of a Randolph trade?

  8. TheRant

    Billups is a better shooter than Felton, but he’s also 35 and he’s making $14M for each of the next two years instead of the $7.5M that Felton is making each year. How we reach for CP3 or Dwight in this situation (or any facsimile) is beyond me.

    Billups/Melo for Gallo/Felton/Wilson/AR isn’t a great deal for the Knicks. I hate that stubby-fingered useless son of privilege.

  9. BigBlueAL

    Z: Several things:
    1) I agree with others that it is Dolan blinking, no Walsh, and Donnie, with his lame duck status, doesn’t have much choice but abide his master’s wishes.
    2) I’m not so sure I would include Chandler in the “I’m okay with losing one, but not two of _____”. I think Chandler’s contract status and skill set make him a definite goner in any Carmelo to the Knicks move (either trade or FA this summer), so his inclusion should be a foregone conclusion. I think one of Gallo, Fields, Randolph, or Mozgov on top of Chandler is as realistic as anyone could reasonably argue would happen. Anything more is too much. Anything less unrealistic.
    3) Is Anthony Randolph part of this proposed trade, or is the pick inclusionindependent of a Randolph trade?  

    From what everything Ive read Randolph would go to the Wolves for a 1st round pick that would go to Denver.

  10. New Guy

    One of the problems with guys like melo (and maybe amare, who I assume is on board with this trade) is they’re so full of themselves they discount the importance of their teammates. They seem to think together, without much help, they’re as good as some of the best teams in the league.

    LeBron, Wade, and Bosh all sacrificed real money to get better teammates. Melo is sacrificing better teammates for more money.

  11. BigBlueAL

    TheRant: Billups is a better shooter than Felton, but he’s also 35 and he’s making $14M for each of the next two years instead of the $7.5M that Felton is making each year.How we reach for CP3 or Dwight in this situation (or any facsimile) is beyond me.Billups/Melo for Gallo/Felton/Wilson/AR isn’t a great deal for the Knicks.I hate that stubby-fingered useless son of privilege.  

    Both Billups and Felton would be under contract for only next season. There is no difference between having either one in terms of 2012 cap space. If anything Billups in his last season under contract with the higher salary is probably a better trade chip than Felton. Plus Billups even at 35 yo is still 100X better than Felton.

  12. Degree Absolute

    “The Knicks are giving up a lot, but I can’t imagine Jim’s ego allowing himself not to do the deal,” the source said. “Denver wanted to deal directly with Jim because they feel he’ll be more willing to make the trade.”

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/2011/02/18/2011-02-18_knicks_owner_james_dolan_now_in_control_of_carmelo_anthony_trade_with_nuggets.html#ixzz1ENiCceyp

    That paragraph in particular is proof that Dolan is an idiot (if you needed more). Denver is pushing to deal with Dolan because they know they have no leverage and they need the Knicks to do something stupid. It seems as though Dolan is eager to oblige them.

  13. BigBlueAL

    People can complain about losing Gallo. Not sure if complaining about losing Chandler makes sense. Randolph who knows because you have such varying opinions on him here (I could care less but there are people who apparently think he will be a future All-Star somehow).

    BUT nobody should complain about losing Felton for Billups. Its such a big upgrade its not even close plus they have equal contracts in terms of length. Both are rentals until 2012.

  14. Z

    BigBlueAL:
    From what everything Ive read Randolph would go to the Wolves for a 1st round pick that would go to Denver.  

    Which pick? Wolves own Utah’s, Memphis’, and their own lottery pick. If they deal Utah or Memphis’s, the pick will be worse than our own (or Houston’s) pick. Shouldn’t we trade something like Rautins + $3 million to the Lakers for their 2011 so we can free up our own pick and hold onto Randolph?

  15. BigBlueAL

    Z:
    Which pick? Wolves own Utah’s, Memphis’, and their own lottery pick. If they deal Utah or Memphis’s, the pick will be worse than our own (or Houston’s) pick. Shouldn’t we trade something like Rautins + $3 million to the Lakers for their 2011 so we can free up our own pick and hold onto Randolph?  

    Not necessarily because the Knicks will be in the playoffs this year, both Utah and Memphis could miss the playoffs which will make their pick better than the Knicks regardless of their records.

  16. New Guy

    How will we have anything left to get the big we need? A lot depends on mozgov now. More than I’m comfortable with.

    On the bright side, if there is still a mid level exception, we are essentially gaining that so that can’t be ignored. We would not be able to use it if we signed melo as a FA.

  17. Degree Absolute

    BigBlueAL: People can complain about losing Gallo.Not sure if complaining about losing Chandler makes sense.Randolph who knows because you have such varying opinions on him here (I could care less but there are people who apparently think he will be a future All-Star somehow).BUT nobody should complain about losing Felton for Billups.Its such a big upgrade its not even close plus they have equal contracts in terms of length.Both are rentals until 2012.  

    Agreed, but losing Gallo is such a huge blow. He is an ideal 6th man and without him we have no real threats off the bench. We get older and we lose cap flexibility. Loss of cap flexibility further convinces me that Walsh has no hand in this trade.

  18. Brian Cronin

    Wow…his coach and his general manager are both against the deal and he’s still going for it. Dolan’s awesome. Okay, not awesome, but at least amusing. Okay, in a sad way, but still…

  19. Brian Cronin

    I suppose there’s a chance that Denver will insist on Mozgov and/or Fields being included in the deal, in which case maybe even Dolan would be compelled to say no.

    What I just can’t fathom is that Dolan is still taking advice from Isiah. Isiah, the guy who gave away two unprotected picks for Eddy Curry (and promptly extended him for no reason). This is so depressing.

  20. Brian Cronin

    Also, there perhaps is something to be said for Dolan perhaps having to “prove” to Melo that he at least put in a reasonable effort, in which case Melo might be willing to wait for free agency.

    I was talking to my brother about this trade, and he made an interesting point. A lot of it comes from the fact that Melo obviously doesn’t respect Gallo. Which goes to a point I was mentioning awhile ago – great players are great players, but they’re rarely great talent evaluators. Just like how a guy like Melo would never be excited to play with David Lee or Paul Millsap, so, too, is he not interested in playing with Gallo.

  21. Z

    @25 Hasn’t Gallo had some good games against Melo? I think I remember them having a good battle last year. Why wouldn’t Melo respect Gallo? Has he said anything publicly?

  22. KnickInSeattle

    I’m holding out some hope that this deal is widely misreported or perhaps largely fabricated. It hasn’t been that long since LeBron’s change of scenery and surely we all remember that there were dozens of unsupported stories and false rumors about that.

    What’s scary about this story is that it does seem to match up with Dolan’s past idiocies and therefore does seem plausible.

    I want the Knicks to get Melo…preferably in the summer…but I’m not happy about this trade. I will miss Felton a ton. His shooting efficiency has tapered off, to put it mildly, but I love his all-in, all-the-time effort level and the general toughness of the man.

  23. bluemax

    this is clearly all on Dolan. The man couldn’t even contemplate the idea of loosing Melo to the Russian. That would have been too much for his Ego. Where we go from here with over $40 M in 2012 committed to 2 players and no tradable assets is anyone’s guess. I just don’t see how we can possibly attract any of the top FA in a shrinking max cap situation looming on the horizon. Well, let’s hope for the best and pray that walsh can come with some miracle somehow.

  24. Count Zero

    So basically it’s AR, Chandler, Gallo, Felton and Eddy’s contract for Billups and ‘Melo.

    I’m sorry, but I still hate this trad. You will have a capped team with no defense, a guy who shoots way too many jump shots, no three point spot-up shooter and an aged PG who will not be able to play 40+ for D’Antoni every night.

    I’m praying this deal doesn’t go down. If it does, Knicks fans better start praying that Timofey blossoms into a legitimate NBA starting center…because short of that happening, I think you’re looking at an annual first or second round exit for the next three years.

    This is definitely Dolan because what it does is practically guarantee him playoff revenue for three straight seasons even though the team will never have a real shot at a Final.

    I haven’t been this depressed since Zeke was the GM — this must mean he really is coming back to give Dolan head again.

  25. JK47

    I have mixed feelings about this deal if it goes down as proposed.

    One way to look at it is that we’re really only giving up one excellent asset– Gallinari. Chandler is probably going to be overpaid next season and is not having the breakout campaign it looked like he might have been having earlier in the season. He’s gotten a little better every year, but he’s 23 and in his fourth season now and you have to wonder how much better he’s realistically going to get. He’s a rotation player, not a star, and won’t be a great value when he gets his new contract. I don’t see “future All-Star” when I look at Anthony Randolph, I see a guy who is much more likely to be a role player even if things break right for him. I doubt whether he would have been able to help us very much before his rookie contract runs out.

    Ray Felton I will not miss a bit; he’s still riding the good vibes from his early-season hot streak but he’s been pretty awful for a good long while now, yet he has continued to be the #2 option on the team. He’s second on the team in FGA and USG%, and I hate to say it but losing him will be addition by subtraction. It’s the All-Star break and the guy has already attempted a near career-high 268 treys, hitting at a dismal .328 clip.

    So I’m not heartbroken to see those three guys go. Gallo is more of a bitter pill to swallow, because he’s lots of fun to watch and to root for, and because he’s so efficient, but really he’s the only rock-solid asset we are parting ways with. We still keep Landry Fields, and we should be a tick better at rebounding because we’re replacing Gallo (7.7 TRB%) with Melo (12.5 TRB%).

    We’ll also have next year’s draft pick, which will presumably be in the 17-20 range, and next year Billups’ contract becomes an expiring so that should give us room to maneuver. It’s not all doom and gloom, KBers.

  26. Z

    According to the trade machine there are no “fillers” required to make this work salary wise. In fact, without throwing more of our own players into the deal the worst contract we could take on as filler would be Balkman’s 3 year, $4 million deal. Second worst would be Lawson’s 2 year, $3 million pact.

  27. mtspark

    Sorry. Have to disagree. To win in the NBA you need 3 star level players and then you fill in the rest of the roster. Lakers, Celtics, Spurs have all won over the last decade using this formula, and now the Heat look to do the same. I have reservations about Carmelo but the alternative is to waste STAT’s career like we did with Ewing by not putting enough A-List talent around him. In case you haven’t noticed top players have not been anxious to come to the Knicks. Now you have 1 begging to come, a top 10 player, and you don’t go get him. C’mon people!

  28. BigBlueAL

    Count Zero: So basically it’s AR, Chandler, Gallo, Felton and Eddy’s contract for Billups and ‘Melo.I’m sorry, but I still hate this trad. You will have a capped team with no defense, a guy who shoots way too many jump shots, no three point spot-up shooter and an aged PG who will not be able to play 40+ for D’Antoni every night.
    I’m praying this deal doesn’t go down. If it does, Knicks fans better start praying that Timofey blossoms into a legitimate NBA starting center…because short of that happening, I think you’re looking at an annual first or second round exit for the next three years.This is definitely Dolan because what it does is practically guarantee him playoff revenue for three straight seasons even though the team will never have a real shot at a Final.I haven’t been this depressed since Zeke was the GM — this must mean he really is coming back to give Dolan head again.  

    Being depressed about rooting for a perennial playoff team is a bit dramatic considering what we have been rooting for these past 9 years.

  29. BigBlueAL

    JK47, couldnt have said it any better myself.

    I understand the reservations about this proposed trade but please spare me all this gloom and doom and the “depression” of having to root for a team who may not be able to get out of the 2nd round of the playoffs.

  30. Degree Absolute

    The worst thing to me about this deal is that it makes the many hours I have spent watching the last few years of Knicks wretchedness a(n even greater) waste of time. There was no reason to watch these young players get better. I could have just ignored them for a decade and tuned in when this deal was struck. Ahhhhh the perils of fandom.

    One other point… I am a huge Mets fan and when I look at this deal, I can’t help thinking about the Scott Kazmir trade. I know Melo is not Víctor Zambrano and Bartolomé Fortunato, but I see the similarity in the fact the there is just no reason to make the trade. The Mets were 5 games under .500 and really going nowhere. You don’t trade a 20 year old lefty who throws 100 mph when you don’t clearly improve your roster to the point that you become a legitimate contender.

    Similarly, you don’t trade all of your chips (including a 22 year old former first round pick who has improved every season of his NBA career), lose all your flexibility, significantly age your roster and don’t significantly improve your chances of going deep into the playoffs when the team you are dealing with has no leverage and should be grateful for whatever scraps we generously decide to part with. And if they don’t kiss Donnie’s hand and thank their lucky stars for those scraps, you don’t make the deal. Because their is no actual need to make the trade (unless it is unequivocally lopsided in your favor). You still have young developing pieces. You still have cap flexibility. You sign Melo in the offseason or you don’t.

    See what you do to me Dolan? You give me Kazmir flashbacks.

  31. BigBlueAL

    Scott Kazmir last season at 26 yo was arguably the worst starting pitcher in baseball. Not that it is relevant to this discussion lol.

  32. JK47

    @35 I’m a Mets fan too, and this doesn’t remind me of the Kazmir trade in the least. If the Knicks were to trade Gallo and Chandler for, say, Beno Udrih, an obscure journeyman who was never all that good in the first place, that would be similar.

  33. Degree Absolute

    BigBlueAL: Scott Kazmir last season at 26 yo was arguably the worst starting pitcher in baseball.Not that it is relevant to this discussion lol.  

    Hey, at 28, Gallo might be out of the league. However, when Kazmir was 20 and striking out 10 per 9 IP with a 1.73 ERA in AA, I had nothing but high hopes. I feel the same way about Gallo at 22 playing ridiculously efficient basketball as the third or fourth scoring option and improving every season.

  34. Shad0wF0x

    mtspark: Sorry. Have to disagree. To win in the NBA you need 3 star level players and then you fill in the rest of the roster. Lakers, Celtics, Spurs have all won over the last decade using this formula, and now the Heat look to do the same. I have reservations about Carmelo but the alternative is to waste STAT’s career like we did with Ewing by not putting enough A-List talent around him. In case you haven’t noticed top players have not been anxious to come to the Knicks. Now you have 1 begging to come, a top 10 player, and you don’t go get him. C’mon people!  

    Yes, I would except that if they were on much smaller contracts. From what I’ve read, it seems like STAT and Melo will make a combined $40M+. That’s about $18M to look for a 3rd star plus all the role players.

  35. Degree Absolute

    JK47: @35 I’m a Mets fan too, and this doesn’t remind me of the Kazmir trade in the least.If the Knicks were to trade Gallo and Chandler for, say, Beno Udrih, an obscure journeyman who was never all that good in the first place, that would be similar.  

    Again, it reminds me of the deal not in terms of the players they are getting back, but in terms of needlessness of the trade.

  36. Robert Silverman

    Hey KBers, I’ve been working on a play and as a result, missing much of this mishegas (ask Mike K. about the show), but I have no idea what to make of this deal.

    I can’t tell if it’s way too much to give up or a fair trade or what. I’m just hopeful all the speculation is over

  37. steveoh

    I’m so conflicted about this trade.

    On one hand, I don’t think the Knicks as constituted (or even with improvements around the fringes) can win the East – not this year or next year. What this team does offer, however, is the ability to act on something big if it becomes available. And the question is whether you think Melo is worth cashing in the chips. I do. Yes, the tenor of the team would be different, but we’re not losing world beaters. Gallo would hurt, but Melo replaces him. Chandler’s leaving anyways. And Billups still is greater than Felton, even at this age. And let’s be honest, Mozgov is replaceable.

    On the other hand, yes, this reeks of impulsive Isiah. Dolan is leading the charge. And that makes me so fricking skeptical. It’s finding the fools in the room and inviting them to the table. This was the NBA’s MO for the Isiah era, and having the Nuggets invite Dolan to negotiate means they wanted the rube. And Dolan is nothing if not a rube.

    Dammit. Why can’t being a Knick fan be easier?

  38. Doug

    Is there any precedent for Dolan meddling directly in a trade? This sounds more like George Steinbrenner than James Dolan. And Dolan is no Steinbrenner. What would make him think that he knows basketball all of a sudden?

  39. jon abbey

    steveohWhy can’t being a Knick fan be easier?  

    because we have an idiot owner who was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple.

  40. jon abbey

    Doug: Is there any precedent for Dolan meddling directly in a trade?

    pretty sure he sided with Larry Brown over Isiah in the famous “let’s give away Trevor Ariza for the corpse of Steve Francis” move.

  41. Doug

    jon abbey:
    pretty sure he sided with Larry Brown over Isiah in the famous “let’s give away Trevor Ariza for the corpse of Steve Francis” move.  

    But he wasn’t acting unilaterally, which appears to be the case now. He listened to the wrong guy a lot of times, but he never took matters into his own hands.

  42. iserp

    We’re screwed if this trade goes down. We’re gonna be hardly better than we currently are, and we are gonna be praying for the next CBA to be easy enough on the cap limit to sign CP3. We are gonna be the Miami Heat but with only 2 stars, and of inferior quality. If at least we don’t trade Felton for Billups, it could be ok, since i could see the team moving forward, but Billups is already in decline; and we are left with no assets to make any other trade. If the cap allows us to sign CP3 (or Deron), we would be fine in 2012, but this doesn’t look any good.

    Our only hope is that Nets trump our card, or Melo decides not to sign for such a gutted team (like Kobe did with the proposed Chicago trade)

  43. Max

    I know I’m biased because being from Milan I want Gallo to stay a Knick, but I agree with Mike, if rumors are true that’s just another case of “Dolan’s Madness”. Melo is a great one on one isolation player, but we are gutting are team for a player we could maybe get as a free agent, a player that doesn’t help us where we really need: interior defence and rebounds. And don’t forget one thing: LBJ and Bosh (as much as I hate them) let some money on the table to play for Miami together, while Carmelo refuse to wait the new CBA, he wants the team of his choice AND the max money. We could only wait and see… and in the meantime please hope that Walsh could set a trade for getting us a new owner…

  44. SR

    billups won a championship this summer,
    has won the nba championship.
    has experience to adapt to knicks style of play.
    can provide vet leadership and integrate melo.
    can hit the three when it counts.
    melo will help attract 3rd star.
    nobody expected felton to play as good as he did
    and felton gets credit for that.
    + felton/chandler/galo have all
    been playing through pain this season.
    espn trade machine has knicks winning
    +4 games if this trade goes down.

  45. New Guy

    mtspark: Sorry. Have to disagree. To win in the NBA you need 3 star level players and then you fill in the rest of the roster. Lakers, Celtics, Spurs have all won over the last decade using this formula, and now the Heat look to do the same. I have reservations about Carmelo but the alternative is to waste STAT’s career like we did with Ewing by not putting enough A-List talent around him. In case you haven’t noticed top players have not been anxious to come to the Knicks. Now you have 1 begging to come, a top 10 player, and you don’t go get him. C’mon people!  

    This is so far and away NOT the type of move that the lakers, celtics, and most of all Spurs, have made to build their championship teams.

    Did San Antonio panic and trade Tony Parker to get Jason Kidd when he was a star and Parker was a fledgeling?

    Did Boston panic and throw in young, valuable pieces like Rondo and Perkins to go all in for Garnett and Allen?

    Did the Lakers give up anything of value to bring in Gasol?

  46. New Guy

    And also, when this trade is done, I see two star level players, not three. both of whom are being paid too much to bring in a 3rd via free agency, and we have no assets left to make a real play at the 3rd (unless Phoenix feels charitable and wants to give away Nash)

  47. latke

    this doesn’t screw us if CP3 follows through on his wedding toast.

    What’s disconcerting is the fact that we may well have been able to bring in anthony for just chandler and a pick. IT’S NOT A BAD MOVE, but it could end up being A LOT WORSE than the deal the knicks could’ve gotten.

  48. Z-man

    The Gasol deal was a once-in-a-lifetime type of trade, so not really fair to compare. The Celts were in the same position, they gave up some young guys (Al Harrington was a similar asset to Gallo) and kept some, and we are basically doing the same thing, getting Melo in his prime (KG was at the end of his) and Billups at the end of his prime (like Ray Allen) while already having Pierce (we have Amar’e.) If we keep Mozgov and Fields, that is something like the Celts keeping Perkins and Rondo, although it is a stretch to think that Fields will ever be as good as Rondo, I think Moz can be better than Perkins, he has improved a lot lately and will now have even more room to roam down low.

    People were skeptical about the Celts…that they they decimated their bench and the old guys would wear down from playing too many minutes, that Rondo wasn’t ready for prime time, that Doc Rivers would be fired, etc. Somehow, all of the role players stepped up. The Celts have been a dominant team for 4 years now, have a championship, a thrilling near-miss, and 64 playoff games in the last 3 years. The real gamble is on whether Moz and Fields will develop the way that Perkins and Rondo have, whether Shawne and TD will step up the way that Posey and House did, etc.

    I am not a huge fan of this trade, and I do think Gallo will be an all-star level player, but I definitely see a best-case scenario being something like the Celts. The big difference I see is that the Celts faced much less competition than there is in the league right now. On the other hand, Melo and Amar’e are in their respective primes and there will definitely be guys that will come here to play with them and play in NY. To be fair, Melo has not really played with another superstar. I also heard something about his work ethic during the Worlds that really impressed me. There would be a bittersweet feel to this trade, but it is far from an isiah-era doomsday blunder.

  49. daJudge

    I’m OK with the trade and, if we are able to attract CP3 or another max, I’m happy with the trade. As such, to me, the transaction is incomplete. So long as the trade works with the numbers, I do believe the acquisition of Melo will help attract a third guy. I’ve not seen an analysis of the numbers, plus who knows what the next CBA will bring? I would love to see some mock ups. I do think Amare, Melo, Billups (love Chauncey) coupled with Fields will be fun to watch and I don’t think folks will be disappointed. It’s like how I felt with David Lee—I hated to see him go, but ultimately I was not disappointed in the move.

  50. Z-man

    latke: this doesn’t screw us if CP3 follows through on his wedding toast.What’s disconcerting is the fact that we may well have been able to bring in anthony for just chandler and a pick. IT’S NOT A BAD MOVE, but it could end up being A LOT WORSE than the deal the knicks could’ve gotten.  

    What do you mean, the deal the Knicks could have gotten?! If a deal like that was available, it would have been made. If it was a sure thing that Melo would not sign an extension with anyone but the Knicks, the team would wait. The reality is what it is and to criticize for not making a deal that was never on the table is unfiar.

  51. Frank

    As much as this feels like a done deal, it definitely is not- and not just because Denver hasn’t said yes yet. First- we have no idea who leaked this rumor and why. It is conveniently left out who “filler” is- could it be Ty Lawson, and that it was the Knicks that leaked the rumor to make it look like the Nuggets were being unreasonable? Second, we have a pretty good idea but no definite confirmation that Melo will actually seek the max. What if he agrees to a $54m extension so we can have more cap room to sign Paul or D-Will in 2012? Third, although I can’t imagine why Melo hasn’t done this already– NJ may walk away because Melo refuses to entertain the extension, changing the dynamics completely.

    If I were Donnie which I am not, I’d say the offer is Gallo, Chandler, curry, Randolph, Felton for Melo, billups, and Lawson. That offer is good for 24 hours. Every 24 hours after that, the offer gets smaller. The Nuggets are the ones with the most to lose here, not us. Time to put their feet to the fire.

  52. daJudge

    I agree with Z-man. That deal was never on the table and despite the hearsay fest, it is almost impossible to gauge what Melo would do in this matter.

  53. Z-man

    I also don’t agree that Melo should be viewed as simply a great isolation player. He has the talent to be any kind of player he wants to be. The question is, will he adapt to the needs of this team, or continue to play the way he has?

  54. Z-man

    Look at this cumulative comparison of Pierce and Melo at age 26:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=piercpa01&y1=2004&p2=anthoca01&y2=2011

    Their stats are very similar, Pierce the better (but hardly great) 3-pt shooter and defender, Melo the better 2-pt and FT shooter and offensive rebounder. To define Melo simply as a good isolation scorer but not much else is very shallow. He may not be Dennis Rodman on D, but at 26 years old, and playing for the demanding NYC audience with another sure-fire HOF player in the front line, there is reason to believe that he will get better in all facets of the game. I’m with Kobe on this one…who are we kidding here? Melo is a bad boy.

  55. Jim Cavan

    Clearly Billups, even at 35, is an upgrade over Felton. Statistically. But I really wonder whether he’ll be motivated to really push it the next 16 months when he knows he’s just keeping CP3 or D-Will’s seat warm. By all accounts Chauncey was happy ending his career in his home state, knowing he had a ring and a career full of crunch time moments to show for it. I can’t imagine he’s going to be too happy having to rent himself out to New York for the next season and a half. And if that’s the case, you have to wonder what you’re really getting. Obviously if Lawson ends up being part of the “filler”, it makes this point a little more moot.

    That said, nothing’s set in stone yet. Let’s hope Denver’s propensity for delusional posturing continues and stretches it out to where even Dolan recognizes he can yank part of the carpet out at the last second (hopefully in the form of Gallo).

  56. d-mar

    I know a lot depends on the next CBA, but assuming this deal goes down, is the consensus that even with Billups coming off the books in 2012, we wouldn’t have enough cap space to sign Paul or D-Will? And if that’s true, is it possible for players under contract (Amare and Melo) to restructure their $$ so a Paul or D-Will signing could take place? In the era of Miami Thrice is that far fetched or even allowable under NBA rules?

  57. TheRant

    latke: this doesn’t screw us if CP3 follows through on his wedding toast.

    Lots of thoughtful typing here, so I’ll only add the one point that isn’t yet covered — what does this do for Donnie’s morale?

    (Answer is obvious.)

    Donnie got us from over the cap and sucking to under the cap and hopeful. Getting CP3 to honor his wedding toast requires Donnie or someone of his ability to make that next trade work, plus the savvy to surround our “three stars,” whoever they might be with post play, defense, and other supports.

    If this is the work of Dolan, and he also hasn’t yet renewed Donnie, then it shows zero respect for the hard work done to get us here. We won’t have another GM sign on and think long-term without looking over his shoulder all the time. And we’ve thus f***ed ourselves again.

  58. StevenU

    I hate this proposed deal so much!
    And on so many levels. In fact, I am very surprised there is even a strong debate going on. Unless you are getting Kareem, Wilt, Mike or Shaq you simply don’t give up half a team for one guy. It makes NO sense. The team is not immediately better and nor is the future brighter.
    It took YEARS to get a decent young point guard in here and now we’re gonna dump him for an over the hill guy with a year or two left??? People are really down on Felton apparently, or else they think it’s 2004 and Billups is 27. Age DOES matter.
    Like the ages of all the Knicks that would be gone after this deal:
    AR, Chandler, Gallo, Fields, Mosgov and Felton are ALL young and still improving (very young except for Felton who appears to be just entering his prime and a perfect fit-even if he is not the shooter Mr Big Shot is-granted).
    Melo is NOT improving. Not at all. he is what he is: An elite scorer and a big name high volume shooter with no other above average skill. Not one. Ok, as a SF he is a good rebounder-but on the new look gutted directionless Knick team he’d probably log a lot of minutes at PF.
    The defense which is already awful-but at least has some swarming moments and some weak side help shot blocking, will be measurably worse. The 4/5 combo of Amare and Melo might be the worst defensive front court duo in the entire league and that is not hyperbole.
    I honestly can not believe Walsh is this stupid-this has all the earmarks of that idiot owner and only serves to reinforce my belief that as long as Dolan owns the team we will suck.
    I just hope like crazy The Nyets gut their team instead-at least they already suck, and have no marketable players, so they aren’t losing anything.

  59. d-mar

    @60 I’ll also add to Z-man’s point about underrating Melo that he is the #1 rebounder in the NBA among non-centers and PF’s (yes, ahead of our very own Landry Fields) with 7.6 per game. Plus he gets to the FT line. I also think the Pierce comparison is valid.

  60. StevenU

    After all these miserable years, things are finally starting to look up> Amare has far exceeded expectations because of his surprising leadership ability. I really don’t think anyone knew how good he would be in that role. Part of why it’s working is because there is clarity and everyone knows their role. If you add a superstar-and one who is also a prime time scorer above all else, you can easily get into what the Nugs experienced when they brought in AI-confusion about roles.
    The Knicks original offer of Chandler, Curry, and AR/the pick they could get for him was fine. Knick fans love Gallo-and I am no exception, but I could stomach parting with him, but NOT with half the team included and NOT taking back an aging Billups and overpaid dead weight at the end of the bench-Ely, Sheldon Williams.
    Does anyone actually believe the Knicks will be better than 6th in the east with this new team???
    I don’t even think they could hold off Philly.
    I feel sick.

  61. Frank O.

    Interesting insights to think about here. It’s helped me see this.
    My emotional response to this trade is that I hate losing Gallo. I think he is developing into what we all hoped he’d become. His scoring is more diverse. His defense has improved. He is efficient as a scorer. And he’s become a better rebounder recently.
    Having said that, I think people are right about Chandler in saying he is a restricted FA next season and he will get an offer the Knicks can’t meet…although in my heart of heart I believe Chandler wants to stay in NYC so much…he might take less to stay.
    I have been a Felton critic and he has frustrated me. Billups likely would be a rental, with an option. If he plays well, the Knicks pay him for another year. If he doesn’t they can waive him. Meanwhile the Knicks add a deadly shooter from 3pt, someone with a better 3 pt jay than both Gallo and Chandler.
    I also am a person that believes Carmelo becomes a much more efficient scorer in D’Antoni’s offense. I know some folks like his one-on-one ability, but I think that ability has done harm to Melo’s efficiency. In the D’Antoni offense, he will see far more open shots, far few doubles, because the Knicks can still hit from three and they have Amare drawing doubles.
    I think star players adapt to the situation they are in. Carmelo will come to NYC and know Amare is the man. That takes some pressure off him.
    Last, this moves makes the Knicks much tougher mentally. You all may have noticed that despite all the uncertainty, Melo’s actually playing better. The Knicks players? Chandler has seen a big drop. Felton has also. Gallo seems off, but has continued to make big plays. Billups and Carmelo, with Amare give the Knicks a formidable big three. Each mentally tough, each very strong, and a flat out star. It’s a big three to rival the Celtics, IMHO.
    I hate losing Gallo, but this team gets out of first round, and is dangerous in the playoffs.

  62. JR Sec 112

    Z-man, thanks for the reasonable comments. I just dont understand how anyone could use the word ‘doomsday’ when it comes to this deal. Everyone is just a bit too attached to the current crop of Knicks. A crop which is not making it out of the first round of the playoffs this year or next.
    Goal is to get 5 guys who can win the title. Right now there is one. Fields could be a role player guy that could make 2. Good to keep him. Melo number 3. Deron Williams number 4. Find number 5 in the draft. Its hard to win a championship. Anyone who was a knick fan in the 90s would understand.

    Back to the deal…point one – wilson chandler is making $2mn this year. He’s going to want to get paid this summer. A lot. There arent a lot of free agents this summer, once you get past Melo. Do we want to overpay for him? No. So he’s gone.

    Billups is, indeed, an upgrade over Felton. Felton is also going to want to get paid in 2012. More than the $7mn he settled for in 2010 to be in the right system and upgrade his marketability. He’ll be 28 then. He’ll want a long term deal. So he’s gone, DWill/CP3 or not. Billups will have an expiring next year at $14mn. Huge trade asset. If the chips really fall the right way, and he likes NY (and he loves the big stage), we sign DHoward and Chauncey signs for much less to win a title in 2012 with NYK.

    That leaves basically Gallo for Melo. Do you really love Gallo that much that you take the chance that Melo blinks and resigns with Denver? Or do you lock in that deal? We can go on and on about TS% and advanced metrics. But unless you think Gallo is going to end up being the next Dirk, you dont even blink. One more point – I think Donnie will be fine with this deal. I’m not even sure this wasnt a ton of gamesmanship by the Knicks, pretending that everyone didnt want Melo and then pretending that Dolan ‘insisted’ on it and the Nuggets are getting a ‘good deal’. If so, kudos to Jim Dolan for…

  63. massive

    I wonder, is Billups a good median between Paul and Felton? Is he closer to Felton than Paul, or vice versa? I figure the advanced stats gurus here should have a good answer. Basically, I’m asking if Billups, Melo and Stat are a big 3, a big 2 1/2, or just 2 pillar with superb role players in Fields and Billups.

  64. StevenU

    Frank O-Which of the top 3 teams do you see the “new look” Knicks beating in the first round?
    How can you possibly say that Billups completes any sort of big 3 at this point in his career? Yes, of course, his career rates well above Felton’s, but please! If you look at the early years, Chauncey was considered a bust, given up on by no fewer than 3 teams before he found a perfect niche on a very special well balanced Detroit team-which, by the way, played at a pretty slow pace- a tempo he set. Felton is just hitting his prime and right now he is already a better penetrator, a better passer and a better defender than Chauncey and I like Chauncey- a lot-always have. Felton is plenty mentally tough, very similar to Billups in this respect.
    Young athletic 7 foot shot blockers are not so easy to find (Mosgov-who is barely scratching the surface).
    Gallo is just beginning to round out his game.
    AR could still very easily become a Camby type (with a better offensive upside) and teaching a very young player to reign in his game is a million times easier than teaching how to expand one, and really that’s all he needs (not that Dantoni teaches at all).
    This price tag is just way too high.
    AND, the are bidding against themselves.
    As in making any deal in any business of any kind-you gotta be ready to walk away-which is exactly what the Knicks should do if Chandler/Curry AR isn’t enough.
    Melo is a very good scorer but NOT a player who has ever elevated anyone’s game.

  65. Degree Absolute

    Frank O.: I hate losing Gallo, but this team gets out of first round, and is dangerous in the playoffs.

    We are a sixth seed as comprised right now and I don’t see us being better than a fifth seed after this trade. There is going to be an adjustment period with new roles being ironed out and we could go a few games under .500. Not to mention the fact that we will have no scoring off the bench. Also, almost no proponent of the deal has addressed the fact we lose length, defensive versatility and shot blocking.

    Making this trade handcuffs us cap-wise. Can someone please explain to me how we get Chris Paul and Deron Williams with no cap flexibility and no assets?

  66. StevenU

    @JR-your whole point seems to be that IF they acquire DWill and DHoward they’ll become contenders down the road.
    The same could be said for every single team in the NBA.
    Chauncey is at least 4-5 years past his prime and I do not see why everyone seems to be ignoring this fact.
    Not only that, but if you look at the team that remains, just which teams in the east do they leapfrog?
    In my estimation they stay 6th best and might fall to 7th due to a severe lack of depth and a lack of defense.
    If we give up all those guys except for Felton and we get back Nene-THEN I’d get excited.
    I think this trade so awful I am shocked how many Knick fans like it. Shocked.

  67. StevenU

    JR, Ok- you are obviously entitled to your opinion.
    What makes this forum great and better than any other is that usually people use substance to make their arguments.
    What did I wrote that you think is delusional?
    Do you dispute that all of the Knicks in the proposal are young and improving?
    Do you dispute that Melo is a pretty one dimemensional player?
    Do you dispute that Billups is 4-5 years removed from his prime?

  68. JR Sec 112

    First of all, you only need 1 of Dwight Howard or Deron Williams/CP3. Personally, I think it will be Williams after the Jazz situation continues to deteriorate. Also, the same could NOT be said of any team in the league. For example, even with Williams or CP3, the Jazz and Hornets arent making it out of the first round. The goal is the championship. You need at least 3 great guys to get there.

    I think they are better than Atlanta and Orlando next year and finish 4th. This year is just about finding chemistry.
    They only lose a little depth this year – basically Gallo. But again, who cares about this year?

    On Billups – can we all just understand that he is a two year rental? Just like Felton was. He’s MORE valuable Felton for 2 reasons. 1. His contract is bigger, and the bigger the expiring deal, the more valuable. 2. He’s a veteran leader, so another team might want him as a rental next year.

  69. JR Sec 112

    StevenU, fair point. Sorry, i didnt mean to be disrespectful.

    I just dont think there is much upside for Felton – he’s 26. His game is what it is. He’s not going to become a great shooter (like Chauncey, btw) all of a sudden.

    For AR – he’s a long way from being Camby. He could also be out of the league in 3 years. I dont see the signs from him and if he cant even make it into the rotation, its a moot point.

    I dont think the Knicks keep Chander either way, so no reason to discuss.

    Gallo is the wild card. Which is why he is the key to the puzzle. I dont think he becomes and all star. I think he is a solid 6th man on a winning team. I’m willing to give that up for Melo.

    I mentioned already Billups is a short term rental. A better one than Felton, but still just short term. He’s got a GOOD contract, because its short. Thats important.

    I dont think anyone on this blog has watched enough nuggets games to truly decide on whether Carmelo can be do whatever it takes to win a championship. i do know he’s a winner. He’s clutch. He won a title on ‘Cuse. The Nuggets have been a very good team for a long time and he’s the key reason. He’s also a good rebounder.

  70. Frank O.

    StevenU: Frank O-Which of the top 3 teams do you see the “new look” Knicks beating in the first round?
    How can you possibly say that Billups completes any sort of big 3 at this point in his career? Yes, of course, his career rates well above Felton’s, but please! .  

    Hey StevenU:
    I have very conflicted feelings about Gallo. So I’m not going to debate him. I wrote about that above.
    I think this team gives the Celtics fits, matches up well with the Heat and is better than the 3 and four team, but those are matters of opinion.

    But, respectfully, you’re wrong about Billups. His career numbers are not just better. He’s better this year, right now, and that is matter of fact.
    For shits and giggles, I’ve added in Rondo’s for comparison.

    TS%
    Billups .634
    Felton’s .524
    Rondo .523

    eFG%
    Billups .536
    Rondo .513
    Felton .478.

    PER.
    Billups 18.8
    Rondo 18.3
    Felton 17.3

    from 3 pt?
    Billups 44%
    Felton 33%
    Rondo 30%

    Assists per 36
    Rondo 11.6
    Felton 8.5
    Billups 5.9

    FT%
    Billups 92%
    felton 87 %
    Rondo 55%

    Scoring per 36
    Billups 18
    Felton 16
    Rondo 10.4

    Steals per 36
    Rondo 2.3
    Felton 1.7
    Billups 1.1

    TOs per 36

    Billups 2.8
    Felton 3.1
    Rondo 3.6

    Billups matches up very well with Rondo, although Rondo is much more a facilitator. Billups’ assists would go up in a Knicks offense, I believe. He would have Amare and Carmelo. Also, Billups takes about two fewer shops per game than Ray…and he probably would know better than Ray not to be the man taking the final shot of the half or the game with an Amare or Melo on the team.

    In my view, he’s a huge upgrade over Felton, and is on par with Rondo. Rondo plays strong D and is a great passer. But Billups a far, far better scorer, far better from 3pt and the FT line.

  71. Frank O.

    Degree Absolute:
    We are a sixth seed as comprised right now and I don’t see us being better than a fifth seed after this trade.There is going to be an adjustment period with new roles being ironed out and we could go a few games under .500.Not to mention the fact that we will have no scoring off the bench.Also, almost no proponent of the deal has addressed the fact we lose length, defensive versatility and shot blocking.Making this trade handcuffs us cap-wise.Can someone please explain to me how we get Chris Paul and Deron Williams with no cap flexibility and no assets?  

    You waive Billups at the end of the year. that’s how.

    Also, while you lose about 2 inches in size, Gallo over Anthony, Carmelo gets about three more board per 36.
    Gallo only gets .04 blocks v melo’s .06 per 36.

    Chandler gets 1.7 per, but his blocks have dropped off lately. He was getting better than 2 per game earlier in the season.
    All of Chandler’s stats have been in decline in past 20 games. And he is a restricted FA, meaning the Knicks probably lose him in off season if they don’t trade him now.
    This way they get value for him, and remember, his stats are inflated by d’Antoni’s offense, IMHO. He comes back to earth elsewhere.

  72. Frank O.

    Degree Absolute:
    We are a sixth seed as comprised right now and I don’t see us being better than a fifth seed after this trade.There is going to be an adjustment period with new roles being ironed out and we could go a few games under .500.Not to mention the fact that we will have no scoring off the bench.Also, almost no proponent of the deal has addressed the fact we lose length, defensive versatility and shot blocking.Making this trade handcuffs us cap-wise.Can someone please explain to me how we get Chris Paul and Deron Williams with no cap flexibility and no assets?  

    Seeding is kind of meaningless with this team. So long as they get to the play offs and gel over the last part of the season, they will be tough. They get better, IMHO, and the current Knicks team plays the celts, Heat and Hawks tough already.

    This new squad, with Billups, Amare, Melo, Mosgov at C, Fields at the 2 – Turiaf, Williams, TD, and Walker off the bench – gives the top four a real run. In fact, I think by play off time, they are better than the Bulls, Hawks and Magic, yeah, I said it.
    I think they are dangerous for both the Celts and Heat.

    I’m getting more convinced as I write about it. :)

  73. Z

    JR Sec 112: On Billups – can we all just understand that he is a two year rental?Just like Felton was.He’s MORE valuable Felton for 2 reasons.1. His contract is bigger, and the bigger the expiring deal, the more valuable.2.He’s a veteran leader, so another team might want him as a rental next year.  

    Well, Billups isn’t necessarily MORE valuable as a trade asset next February. His contract is bigger, which makes it hard (remember we couldn’t trade Marbury’s expiring because it was too big), but also, Felton at 28 wouldn’t be an “expiring” in the sense that he’d bring releif, but rather would be considered a PG in his prime that a team could feasibly be attracted to because of his skills, not just his contract.

    that said, I’d still gladly exchange the two right now, because the Billups is better and because he could possibly, if things break right for the Knicks, be the difference in making a Paul/Deron trade work salary wise next February.

    Degree Absolute:
    Can someone please explain to me how we get Chris Paul and Deron Williams with no cap flexibility and no assets?  

    Billups + Turiaf + Mozgov + Fields + 2012 draft pick for Paul + Okafor.

  74. StevenU

    Frank O- You are always one of my faves on here even when I disagree. You make your point(s) quite well. Amidst all those stats, though, there is a big very important one that you-and most of the people here continue to ignore: their respective birthdays. At 26 where was Billuos in his career? If I am not mistaken he was considered a bust by the team that drafted him and already played for three teams, and no one thought he’d ever be a “true” PG. You are the stat geek (I say that as a compliment), so why not compare Felton at 26 to Billups at 26 (and I think Rondo is WAY better than both-he is a speedier longer armed version of JKidd, almost a better defensive version of Nash-minus the shot).
    I am not trying to denigrate Chauncey-he is a leader, a tough guy, a clutch shooter and a winner. I just think many point guards need some seasoning, kinda like NFL QBs,and Felton, despite his weaknesses is playing the best ball of his career and still improving.
    (I do completely agree that his penchant for believing he should always take the last shot is a serious weakness, but his playmaking and his defense right now, are better than Billups, as is his ability to play at a fast tempo which has never been Chauncey’s strength).
    Felton is a good fit on this team and in this system and this idea that he is “just” a 2 year rental fails to allow for the possibility of him being a perfectly good back up plan if the Knicks do not sign CP3 or DWill. Billups would not be and were it not for Dolan’s idiocy I’d have thought the Knicks would know better than to repeat the error of sacrificing multiple seasons for a pipe dream.
    I know perfectly well that this team as currently constructed is not a contender, but they are good, watchable, young and improving and I do not think we could say any of those things after this proposed trade.

  75. Frank

    StevenU:
    Chauncey is at least 4-5 years past his prime and I do not see why everyone seems to be ignoring this fact.

    I’m sort of on the fence about this trade also but Chauncey Billups is not even remotely why. Certainly Billups is older than Felton but there’s really nothing to suggest that he has slipped at all, at least statistically. In the last 10 years, his per 36 and advanced stats numbers have not changed AT ALL. Just look at them – it’s uncanny how unbelievably consistent he has been since his age 26 season.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/billuch01.html

    They’re almost identical year to year. His WORST TS in that period of time was 55% and that was when he was 27. His Offensive Rating has been 120+ EVERY SEASON since 2004. On-ball defense wise he may not be as good as Felton, but he is much bigger than Felton and won’t be hurt on post-ups as much.

    And we’re not looking for him to be a long-term solution. This is a 1.5 year solution — I think there is relatively little chance that he forgets how to shoot 3′s, FTs, take care of the ball, and be a 6’3″ big PG within that period of time.

    And re: his longevity – remember that Kobe Bryant is still amazingly effective and he has played a total of about 46000 minutes in his career between playoffs and reg season. Chauncey has played a full 10000 minutes less in his career, or really the equivalent of 4 full regular seasons. Not saying Billups is Kobe, but I think he’s still got a lot of basketball left in him.

    That being said – I have really gotten attached to Felton and if he goes I will be quite sad. He has that bulldog appearance and mentality that reminds me of our beloved 90s Knicks teams.

  76. BG

    to say that this trade does not drasticaly improve our team is unfair. It is tough to lose gallo but melo is too good to pass up. He is a top two scorer in the league and has a complete offensive package which includes the best post game of any wing in the league. He is a better rebounder than gallo or chandler. He has a deadly midrange game and will now have another superstar to play with for the first time in his career. I am very excited to have him and I think the knicks are ready to make some noise in the playoffs this year. Go Knicks !!!!

  77. Frank

    StevenU:
    I know perfectly well that this team as currently constructed is not a contender, but they are good, watchable, young and improving and I do not think we could say any of those things after this proposed trade.  

    OK sorry – I wouldn’t go so far as to call you “delusional” for most of what you say, but you must be joking if you don’t think a team built on Billups, Fields, Melo, and Amare is watchable and probably very good. Whether they are championship capable is another story – but they’ll be VERY watchable and exciting. Not to mention that on this proposed team, the only guy who would be expected to get significantly worse 3 seasons from now would be Billups. Melo’s only 26, Amare should have another 3 good seasons after this, and Fields is a baby. Assuming we keep Mozgov, I actually think this is a reasonably good mix of youth and experience.

    Meanwhile I am still holding out hope that “filler” is Lawson, or at least Aaron Affalo.

  78. ess-dog

    First of all, this trade is on Carmelo. He had the ability to say flat out “no” to the Nets or anyone else, as well as the ability to wait until July so that his future team would be deeper. But he clearly wanted that extension NOW. For all the sh*t LeBron takes, hey, he gave up $$ to play winning basketball and play with his homies. But Melo gets less grief because he has concern for the Nuggets organization? Never mind that he’ll cap us out and is practically gutting the team. If he signs the extension for less – even a few million less – then I’ll be down with him, but if he caps us out I will have hard time liking this guy in a Knicks uni.

    And although this is not a great deal, it’s not a horrible deal either. Billups is a better player than Felton and gives us a better 3 pt threat at the 1 which is key since Gallo could be taking his talents out west.

    I will miss Gallo and he will be a good player, but he’s the guy who’s skills Melo’s overlaps the most, aside from the 3 pt shooting. For so long, we had heard reports that Denver wasn’t interested in Gallo. It makes me think they are prepared to flip him elsewhere. Wherever he ends up, I wish him well and I hope he becomes a stretch 4 when he fills out a bit.

    Lot of pressure on Moz to get it together in a hurry. The organization seems to have a lot of faith in him. I can’t imagine they would ever include him in this trade as well. Don’t forget, we have Jerome Jordan stashed overseas. His win shares were really good in college. Perhaps he could help at the 5 next year.

    It would be great if we could hold onto AR, even just as an asset to use in another trade, but I’m not holding out hope. Maybe Faried will fall to us in the draft and give us another great “glue” guy…

    All things being equal, I think this does improve us a bit. We can certainly hang with the Hawks now, if not the Magic. But we will no longer have the assets needed to catch those top 4 teams.

  79. StevenU

    “StevenU, fair point.Sorry, i didnt mean to be disrespectful.I just dont think there is much upside for Felton – he’s 26.His game is what it is….”
    @JR, no worries and no apology needed, I still disagree-strongly. Point by point:
    -Yes, the Nugs are good and they have Billups, and Nene, Kmart, JR, Birdman, Lawson…and Melo-that is not a one man or a two man team. And, as good as they’ve been they have never actually been in the hunt for a title.
    I have NBA league pass and seen plenty of Nugs games over the last two years and think Nene is their MVP this season, and Lawson has been a huge key as well.
    -None of us knows whether or not the Knicks will retain Chandler as an RFA; they do tend to move less than is often speculated. IF anything his recent struggles serve the Knicks well as far as leverage and perceived value. I would not write him off as worthless just because-at age 23!-he has faltered after an injury and with all the trade rumors swirling. A lot of young players might struggle under those same circumstances.
    -We also don’t know what Gallo’s ceiling is, but I think we’d all agree that he has improved, expanded his game, and shown some grit and fire we didn’t know he had. I for one would love to see him develop here rather than from afar. Even if he does not develop into an all star he spreads th floor and for the stat geeks I saw a great number with the teams-and Amares shooting % with him on the floor vs off and the difference was pretty surprisingly huge. As great as Melos range is that’s the one area where Gallo is his equal.
    -My biggest disagreement with your points is that-at age 26-Felton is growing and improving right before our eyes. His shooting is inconsistent but his floor game, passing, defense, hustle and mental toughness are all well above average and as a PG I think 26 is way too young to say he is what he is. I don’t think any evidence supports that. he is a good value at $7 mil per, a great signing, a good fit & a good…

  80. endyendy

    Well, this is definitely better than the deal that had us giving up Chandler, Gallo, Fields, Mozgov, Felton, 2 first round picks and Donnie Walsh’s soul.

    It hurts for two reasons; Gallo and Felton. Gallo because I love what he’s becoming, Felton because he’s a younger, competent 1. Straight up, I think Billups is better, but if we don’t have a capable back-up Billups will not hold up. Randolph would hurt a bit if D’Antoni were ever to play him regularly, but he won’t.

    The filler in this deal is probably something like Anthony Carter and Sheldon Williams. Both aren’t bad defenders, and Williams can rebound, but neither can hit a shot. If we managed to get Ty Lawson instead I’d call this trade a win, as much as it burns to lose Gallo.

    Of course, it hasn’t happened yet and the way this fiasco has gone thus far who knows what it will morph into. http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=46vjqld is a good Dolan/Thomas trade.

  81. NateRobinson

    I pray this doesnt happen, I think I’ll make a trip to a voodoo women and put a hex on Dolan. Maybe she can make him out to be on the Madoff ponzi scheme and he’s forced to resign.

  82. New Guy

    Z man, re your comments in 53, I agree Gasol deal was once in a lifetime, thats why I felt the previous comments about including him and the lakers were unfair. Lakers didn’t go all out to get a second star, they had one fall in their laps.

    As for the Celtics, if you recall the way things went back then, mchale was working to get al Jefferson and the no. 5 pick from Ainge, but Ainge held strong and waited him out. He then traded the pick for allen, and mchale (w no leverage) basically caved and traded him for less than what Boston originally offered.

    That was well played. And ainge got the most out of his assets. This not well played. Heck, if the knicks are resigned to losing Gallo, we should trade him for a big right now and tell Denver they lost him as the cost of dragging their feet. Its not like they will have a better option.

  83. StevenU

    Frank, I hear you and I respect your point about Billups playing at or close to the level he’s played for a long time. I still think he is at an age when typically players decline suddenly and rapidly. Fleton is at an age where players-and specifically PGs tend to improve as the game slows down. Further more, the fact the Billups really struggles to stay in front of his man these days is a serious issue. It is not as if Dwight Howard is gonna be behind him-or Birdman, Kmart or Nene either. As bad as the Knicks are on D, PG with Felton/Douglas is likely their best position on the defensive end of the floor.
    And your comment about Felton’s bulldog mentality is exactly why I want him to stay. Badly. I would much rather see the team upgrade at SG, and/or C than to mess with the positions that are already pretty well taken care of PF/SF, and PG.
    We do still desperately need a back up PG-no offense at all to Toney D- a really good defender but one of the worst playmakers I have ever seen

  84. Kikuchiyo

    I’m going to make my usual unpopular response to situations like these. I actually enjoy regular season games, and I also enjoy rooting for a team that wins one or two playoff series but not the championship. I am, after all, a Knicks fan. Sure, I would prefer to root for a champion, and I would never want a team to simply surrender this possibility. But I find it patently absurd that so many of you think that winning the championship is the ONLY reason to watch a basketball team. Especially with LeBron and Wade just getting warmed up, it is quite possible that CP3, Carmelo, Amare, Dwight Howard, etc. will NEVER win championships.

    Just this season’s 54 games have been more fun to watch than the previous decade’s games combined. It is enjoyable rooting for a team with hope. I greatly prefer calling Denver’s (or Melo’s) bluff here, and picking up Carmelo in the summer, if he really wants to play here. Old Man Billups + Melo + STAT reeks of Isiah-level impatience. It’s a far better trio than Isiah ever managed to pull off (thanks, Donnie), but it is still more of a fantasy team than a viable “solution” to the Celtics and the Heat. And it is one injury away from being a wretched, cursed roster.

  85. art vandelay

    I think the deal as currently structured, while not a win, is ok…throw in mozgov and it is an unequivocal loss….denver apparently wants mozgov too…if I am the knicks I say take it or leave it….the can’t bend and break anymore (they already have).

  86. New Guy

    a better option that is actually valid, that is. I for one refuse to believe that if melo rejected the nets twice he will say yes on the 3rd try.

  87. JR Sec 112

    StevenU – agreed, Nene is MVP of this year’s team. But this year’s team is in so much flux, its just not a good comp to the rest of the body of work. But they won 50 games in the west the last 3 years and took the lakers to 6 games once in the conf finals. Basically with Melo and Chauncey and a bunch of role players (Nene was still developing back then)

    As for Felton, maybe he gets a little bit of savvy as the years go on. Chauncey was already a stud at 26, btw. I dont see Felton getting significantly better. More importantly, how much money is he going to want in 2012 and will he even be worth signing to a long term deal?

  88. Brian Cronin

    Come on, Denver! Be too greedy! Insist that Fields and Mozgov are included!

    If that is the case, how could Melo possibly blame the Knicks for not getting it done?

  89. art vandelay

    I personally think carmelo is in cahoots with denver to a certain extent…otherwise the way things have played out makes no sense….he could have leveraged his ability to walk, play this through free agency and didn’t do so…if he REALLY wanted to play in NY and get the extension, he should NEVER have alluded to how difficult it would be for him to not accept the extension before the deadline….denver would have had no other option than to deal exclusively with the knicks and new jersey would be out of this….instead, he has failed to rule out jersey and basically made it clear he will not take the risk of losing the money…can’t blame him entirely for this, but by the same token it reeks of his having made a deal with denver management to maximize their return on trading him and get him an extension at the same time by hook or by crook, and he doesn’t look like a villain in the press by forcing their hand completely. the knicks, I believe, overestimated his willingness to hold out through free agency….basically what we have learned this weekend is he will not do that and, if worse comes to worst, he will sign with jersey, which gives denver an enormous amount of leverage over NYK.

  90. erobes

    @ 91…

    While I’m iffy on the trade, I have to say I disagree with almost every point you made.

    -The Nuggets were in the western conference finals two years ago. I’d say that’s in the title hunt.

    -Chandler wouldn’t be staying as a FA because even if we didn’t make this trade and Melo remained a nugget then we would sign him in the offseason. Aside from that, nothing I have seen from Chandler convinces me that he is anything more than a solid rotation guy.

    -Honestly, I saw more “grit and fire” from Gallo in his duel with Melo last season than I have this season. I think most of us agree that Gallo has been altogether too passive this season. Also, his 3p% has dropped the past two years, which I find alarming. If Gallo isn’t a knock-down three point threat then I think his upside is far more limited. Yes, getting to the line this season has kept his advanced stats up. But without his outside shooting his value to the team is drastically reduced (in the SSOL offense) and really if that’s the case then Melo is an upgrade across the board.

    -I don’t understand how you can say that “Felton is growing and improving before our eyes.” It seems to me that he regressing right before our eyes. I like Felton, I like the whole bulldog thing, but if the PG can’t shoot, this offense can’t run. In my opinion the single biggest difference between our earlier winning ways and our current malaise (bit of a Clyde moment there) is the fact that Felton cannot punish defenders for going under the screen anymore. It is so important that the PG in SSOL can do that, and its becoming more clear that Raymond Felton is not a good shooter. And because of that I don’t believe he has a place in our long term plans. He’s a good rental. Billups is better.

    -

  91. Doug

    art vandelay: I think the deal as currently structured, while not a win, is ok…throw in mozgov and it is an unequivocal loss….denver apparently wants mozgov too…if I am the knicks I say take it or leave it….the can’t bend and break anymore (they already have).  

    We can only hope Denver tries to keep pressing their luck.

  92. bobneptune

    there are 2 things that are going to ruin the long term prospects of the knicks: dolan’s stupidity and melo’s greed.

    as far as dolan is concerned what he is doing to walsh (assuming he isn’t on board with this nonsense) is criminal.

    when walsh took over command the nix were a 23 win team with a 100 million dollar payroll capped out forever. in 2 and one half seasons look what walsh has done:

    1… practically doubled the win total

    2… filled the arena on a nightly basis

    3… exploded the msg network tv ratings

    4… dropped the payroll by 40 million per year and saved dolan another 40 million a year in luxury tax payments to the league.

    walsh has increased the bottom line of the nix by over 100 million per year and almost doubled their win total and greatly enhanced their brand. while he did this, he has left the team with young good players and a ton of flexibility moving forward.

    the idea that dolan would not let this man finish his job is beneath contempt.

    i’ll get to melo in a minute as i am running out of characters

  93. New Guy

    Frank o you’ve convinced me on Billups. I was already sold on losing Chandler. Still can’t get over Gallo, though.

  94. Brian Cronin

    It’s not so much that Carmelo is in cahoots with Denver as it is Carmelo knowing he needs Denver’s help to get him what he wants most of all – to play for the Knicks and get the $65 million extension. Again, like I said, he’s confident (delusional?) enough to think that a Knicks team with him and Amar’e and Billups is good enough to hang with the top teams in the East, so he doesn’t see it as asking too much to have the Knicks give up even more than what they’ve already offered.

    So yeah, Carmelo is not really on the Knicks’ side here, because the Knicks would be okay with walking away and getting him as a free agent, and Carmelo does not want that to happen, so he has to work with Denver.

  95. Brian Cronin

    Still can’t get over Gallo, though.

    It’s not Gallo – it is Gallo on top of AR and Chandler. Three out of four is too much. I’m never going to be okay with giving up three out of the four. And the Knicks are currently giving up three out of the four (and hell, might be giving up all four before all is said and done). Man, think about that for a second…this is a dumb trade, and the Knicks might very well be making it worse before the deadline!!

  96. art vandelay

    I don’t believe some of these arguments (and I am a big melo fan, mind you), but the pro-melo trade arguments from some people (no one on this board this far, thankfully), like stephen a. smith and other morons, are how can you not get melo because of a guy like gallo…but the demands never stop with denver….it started at chandler, then gallo, then felton….now mozgov and perhaps fields…where does it stop? at some point they have to draw the line and just tell them, accept the deal or let him go to jersey…..

  97. Brian Cronin

    By the way, if Chandler wasn’t included in this deal, he’d be a Knick next season guaranteed. He would also be great trade fodder in 2012. So I don’t buy this “Chandler’s gone no matter what, we can’t count him!” You darn well can count him.

    Meanwhile, the Knicks have also ruined AR’s trade value, from him being worth David Lee to him being worth a late first rounder? Picks that you sometimes get just for cash? Ridiculous. At the beginning of the season, AR was a guy you’d build a trade around. Then they played the guy out of position and then benched him for not being good as playing a position that doesn’t suit his skills at all! Thereby ruining any of his trade value.

  98. bobneptune

    now to melo. obviously, this man has never read machivelli. he holds all the cards in this.

    one can only surmise by his actions that a few pieces of silver is more important to him than reaching the highest level of his profession. all he has to do is tell denver he’s not signing an extension with anyone for any reason and is going to be a free agent at the end of the season. he risks some money by doing this. but really, not that much.

    if he extends, he can get his 18.5 million next year and 65 million over the next 3, so = 83.5 million over the next 4.

    as a ufa, he can sign with anyone with space for 30% of the cap ~ 17 million/yr with escalators in ’12, 18.5m in ’13, 20m in 14 and 21.5m in ’15 which equals 77 million vs 83.5 million if he extends.

    i’m sure dolan could sign la la to replace tina cervasio and make up most or all of those lost wages.

    for those that argue, but the new cba might limit max contract extensions. well, in that unlikely circumstance all existing large contracts would necessarily have to be rolled back just as well.

    melo sitting chilly and signing as an ufa costs him very little money and allows the nix to keep gallo, felton, chandler, and randolph to either be kept if the blossom, or as pieces to improve the team via trade.

    and, it saves precious cap space for 2012. say the trade goes down as advertised. melo and amar’e will eat 41 million of the 58 million. add 10 cap holds @ 470,000 each and cp3 ain’t signing for 12 million to play for amar’e , melo and 9 minimum contracts.

    the notion of trading 4 very useful young pieces for something you can have for free in 4 months is plain lunacy.

    this deal will make the nix a 48-50 win team for the next 4 years (baring any injury), but never a title contender.

    ultra short sighted by melo.

  99. Frank

    art vandelay: I don’t believe some of these arguments (and I am a big melo fan, mind you), but the pro-melo trade arguments from some people (no one on this board this far, thankfully), like stephen a. smith and other morons, are how can you not get melo because of a guy like gallo…but the demands never stop with denver….it started at chandler, then gallo, then felton….now mozgov and perhaps fields…where does it stop? at some point they have to draw the line and just tell them, accept the deal or let him go to jersey…..  

    Well – we don’t really have any real idea what is actually going on – just what “sources” say. We all know how awesome those “sources” were during the “Decision”.

    That being said – assuming it is real, that is why Donnie needs to take control of the hand so to speak by turning the tables. As they keep asking for more, start decreasing the offer. They need to know there may be penalties for delay and for being ridiculous. Denver STILL HAS THE MOST TO LOSE. We are not playing it that way (assuming “sources” are correct).

  100. erobes

    Brian Cronin: By the way, if Chandler wasn’t included in this deal, he’d be a Knick next season guaranteed. He would also be great trade fodder in 2012.So I don’t buy this “Chandler’s gone no matter what, we can’t count him!” You darn well can count him.Meanwhile, the Knicks have also ruined AR’s trade value, from him being worth David Lee to him being worth a late first rounder? Picks that you sometimes get just for cash? Ridiculous. At the beginning of the season, AR was a guy you’d build a trade around. Then they played the guy out of position and then benched him for not being good as playing a position that doesn’t suit his skills at all! Thereby ruining any of his trade value.  

    How can you guarantee that Chandler would be back next season? You can guarantee that no team offers him a multi-year contract? Because if anyone did, there is no way the Knicks would match it. 2012 cap space is too precious. Besides which we’d have to renounce Chandler to sign Melo. To me its seems most of the evidence points to Chandler being gone, trade or no.

  101. Brian Cronin

    We are not playing it that way (assuming “sources” are correct).

    Agreed on both points (that the Knicks are playing this horribly and that for all we know, the sources are wrong on this). I tend to believe Hahn, though.

  102. NateRobinson

    -Gallo is too young to say that his dipping 3pt % is a cause of concern or a return to the mean. I think its just a young player adjusting his game and finding his niche…

    -This trade should not happen if Denver demands more than 2 of our 4 studs. If Dolan is including Gallo than we better hold on to AR and Fields…

  103. Brian Cronin

    one can only surmise by his actions that a few pieces of silver is more important to him than reaching the highest level of his profession.

    Geez louise, thirty pieces of silver? Gimme a break. We’re talking milions and millions of dollars here! I sure wouldn’t blame anyone on this board or anyone period for wanting to make the most money possible. So I have no problem with him trying to get the most money he can, especially since I believe that he truly believes that he, Amar’e, Billups and whoever is left (some guy named Meadows? Parks? Something like that) is enough to compete for a championship.

  104. StevenU

    It is not a foregone conclusion that Chandler is out after this season. Oftentimes, RFAs stay put. Plus, they could still do a sign and trade with him just as they did with DLee-which worked out pretty well.
    It is also not a foregone conclusion that Melo ever makes it to free agency even if the Knicks do not acquire him. There is pretty well chronicled competition for his services from across the river, and for a couple of other teams who already said they’d trade for him without an extension, and, as we all know but many prefer to ignore, the Nugs do not have to trade him.
    Felton is admittedly an inconsistent shooter who started out hot and has since leveled off, but he is having a career year regardless. His defense, passing, hustle, speed/quickness are all superior to Billups at this point in their respective careers. He has been a great signing and Charlotte has missed him more than they imagined.
    I can grant you that making it to one conference final kinda sorta qualifies as being in the title hunt-but barely, and it’s not like they knocked at the door year after year.
    I also think you are underrating Gallo (and please don’t think I am saying he is equal to Melo or ever will be, despite an accusation to the contrary I am not delusional-just opinionated). It is a fact that he has improved greatly with respect to taking it to the hole and getting FTAs (2nd on the team with no one else close), and his D has been surprisingly effective for a guy everyone seems think is a stiff. He enjoys tough match ups and as of two weeks ago led the entire league in taking charges-and this despite almost never getting the benefit of close calls because his poor rep on D.

  105. New Guy

    Kikuchiyo: I’m going to make my usual unpopular response to situations like these. I actually enjoy regular season games, and I also enjoy rooting for a team that wins one or two playoff series but not the championship. I am, after all, a Knicks fan. Sure, I would prefer to root for a champion, and I would never want a team to simply surrender this possibility. But I find it patently absurd that so many of you think that winning the championship is the ONLY reason to watch a basketball team. Especially with LeBron and Wade just getting warmed up, it is quite possible that CP3, Carmelo, Amare, Dwight Howard, etc. will NEVER win championships.Just this season’s 54 games have been more fun to watch than the previous decade’s games combined. It is enjoyable rooting for a team with hope. I greatly prefer calling Denver’s (or Melo’s) bluff here, and picking up Carmelo in the summer, if he really wants to play here. Old Man Billups + Melo + STAT reeks of Isiah-level impatience. It’s a far better trio than Isiah ever managed to pull off (thanks, Donnie), but it is still more of a fantasy team than a viable “solution” to the Celtics and the Heat. And it is one injury away from being a wretched, cursed roster.  

    Unpopular? I love everything you said.

  106. art vandelay

    denver also knows knicks (mainly Dolan) don’t want to see Melo go to their regional “rival” – the Nets….which is driving up his price tag. If they were negotiating on the side with Memphis for melo, I am not so sure Dolan is so intent to nab carmelo.

  107. art vandelay

    From what I have read (obviously some of which could be apocryphal, of course), my fear is that the trade gets WORSE, not better….I can’t see them getting Lawson now out of this, or perhaps giving up only 2 of the 4….my fear is that it winds up including now fields or mozgov, too!

  108. Brian Cronin

    -This trade should not happen if Denver demands more than 2 of our 4 studs. If Dolan is including Gallo than we better hold on to AR and Fields…

    The most recent trade offer had AR in it, as well.

  109. Brian Cronin

    How can you guarantee that Chandler would be back next season? You can guarantee that no team offers him a multi-year contract? Because if anyone did, there is no way the Knicks would match it. 2012 cap space is too precious. Besides which we’d have to renounce Chandler to sign Melo. To me its seems most of the evidence points to Chandler being gone, trade or no.

    They would too match any offer (Walsh has already said as much). They are not going to have realistic cap room in 2012 no matter what. Their plan is to get the guys beforehand, and Chandler would be a big part of that.

  110. StevenU

    Brian Cronin: By the way, if Chandler wasn’t included in this deal, he’d be a Knick next season guaranteed. He would also be great trade fodder in 2012.So I don’t buy this “Chandler’s gone no matter what, we can’t count him!” You darn well can count him.Meanwhile, the Knicks have also ruined AR’s trade value, from him being worth David Lee to him being worth a late first rounder? Picks that you sometimes get just for cash? Ridiculous. At the beginning of the season, AR was a guy you’d build a trade around. Then they played the guy out of position and then benched him for not being good as playing a position that doesn’t suit his skills at all! Thereby ruining any of his trade value.  

    Brian-THANK YOU. It may be slightly off topic but that exact point about AR-and a couple of other notable players over the last couple of years is a point I keep emphasizing and everyone gives Damphony a free pass. It demonstrates an incredible lack of basic business acumen, a severe case of arrogance, pathological stubbornness-or maybe all three. One simply does not denigrate and devalue one’s own assets regardless of how highly one values them.
    There is simply no intelligent perspective from which that makes any sense.

  111. New Guy

    From this Hahn article

    http://mobile.newsday.com/inf/infomo;JSESSIONID=126CE0B7C69D70F28556.3070?site=newsday&view=sports_blogs_item&feed:a=newsday_5min&feed:c=sports_blogs&feed:i=1.2698365

    It seems likely to assume that Melo eventually caved in with Denver and started working with them to extract as many assets from us as possible so he can get his extension.

    I can’t stress this enough: it makes me down on melo before he gets here. We wanted him to join this team, not tear it down.

    Furthermore, its still a bluff. Call it.

  112. art vandelay

    Biggest fear for me is that knicks are NOT willing to walk away here and denver knows it…due to dolan’s influence….if that is the case we will lose practically the entire squad for melo….I really hope the last offer is the final one.

  113. bobneptune

    Brian Cronin:
    Geez louise, thirty pieces of silver? Gimme a break. We’re talking milions and millions of dollars here! I sure wouldn’t blame anyone on this board or anyone period for wanting to make the most money possible. So I have no problem with him trying to get the most money he can, especially since I believe that he truly believes that he, Amar’e, Billups and whoever is left (some guy named Meadows? Parks? Something like that) is enough to compete for a championship.  

    for a guy that has already made 90 million in his life, what exactly can he buy with an additional 83.5 million that he cannot buy with an additional 77 million instead?????

    and, of course those extra 30 pieces of silver are going to limit his professional success, without any question by ruining his new team’s flexibility.

  114. art vandelay

    let’s just say nba players are not the most frugal types in the world (see eddy curry, antoine walker, list goes on and on).

  115. bobneptune

    New Guy: From this Hahn articlehttp://mobile.newsday.com/inf/infomo;JSESSIONID=126CE0B7C69D70F28556.3070?site=newsday&view=sports_blogs_item&feed:a=newsday_5min&feed:c=sports_blogs&feed:i=1.2698365It seems likely to assume that Melo eventually caved in with Denver and started working with them to extract as many assets from us as possible so he can get his extension.I can’t stress this enough: it makes me down on melo before he gets here.We wanted him to join this team, not tear it down.Furthermore, its still a bluff.Call it.  

    100% call the bluff and take it to show down. worst case…. melo goes to the nyets. good luck to him/them.

    nyets starting line up: melo, billups, humphries, morrow and lopez. bench: travis outlaw, farmar, ohan petro. looks like a contender to me… lolz

    he can’t possibly be that dense to do that.

    i know dolan isn’t this slick, but wouldn’t it be so machivellian if the nix were extending this as close to the deadline as possible before pulling out :-)

  116. NateRobinson

    At the end of the day, I prefer a Paul/DWill, Fields, Gallo, STAT, Timo, Chandler, AR, TD roster than any roster that would gut our depth and kill our chances at our own big 3.

  117. New Guy

    Here’s what the trade really is:

    Knicks give up a potential starting 5 next season of Melo, Amare, Mozgov, Felton, and Fields; with Gallo, Randolph, Turiaf, Douglas, Walker, and Williams on the bench

    For Chauncey Billups and the privilege of paying Melo more money than he can make under the next CBA.

    Melo gives up a chance to play on that team for said undetermined amount of money.

    We’re all down on Dolan being an idiot here, but Melo is forcing his hand by lying to him that he will really play for the Nets.

    Public Enemy #1 here is Melo. Dolan is just a gullible idiot.

  118. StevenU

    @bobneptune- …”isn’t this slick” may be the understatement of the century. If you never saw it take a look at this clip of Dolan’s infamous deposition. With his future, the team’s future, and millions of dollars at stake the loser showed up in a t shirt and sweatpants, looking-and sounding, like a bored stupid spoiled entitled brat. You think maybe just maybe his disrespect for the court had anything to do with a $12 million jury award that exceeded the plaintiff’s request?
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/19/sports/basketball/19garden.html
    Does anyone respect this guy?
    Would you want to work for him???
    He makes Steinbrenner look like the coolest smartest team owner in history.

  119. ess-dog

    bobneptune:
    for a guy that has already made 90 million in his life, what exactly can he buy with an additional 83.5 million that he cannot buy with an additional 77 million instead?????and, of course those extra 30 pieces of silver are going to limit his professional success, without any question by ruining his new team’s flexibility.  

    Not to mention the additional income from playing in the largest city in the U.S. by far.

  120. ess-dog

    ess-dog:
    Not to mention the additional income from playing in the largest city in the U.S. by far.  

    Sorry, I meant through advertising.

  121. bobneptune

    StevenU:
    Brian-THANK YOU. It may be slightly off topic but that exact point about AR-and a couple of other notable players over the last couple of years is a point I keep emphasizing and everyone gives Damphony a free pass. It demonstrates an incredible lack of basic business acumen, a severe case of arrogance, pathological stubbornness-or maybe all three. One simply does not denigrate and devalue one’s own assets regardless of how highly one values them.
    There is simply no intelligent perspective from which that makes any sense.  

    how has d’antoni mishandled anyone ,really?

    everybody’s favorite pet, AR? don’t you think d’antoni would like to use him, but at some point the player has to demand pt by actually doing something in practice or games.

    for the record, after AR recovered from his 6 millionth ankle sprain, in november , d’antoni gave him back up minutes in 8 consecutive games (even though he showed zilch in preseason). he was rewarded with 27% fg% and 60% ft% and 2.2 ppg.

    in those 8 consecutive game where he got minutes the nix went 2-6 featuring loses to philly, gs, mn and milw.

    AR was dropped from the rotation and the nix went on a 13-1 run. that’s not to blame AR for the losses and the run, but he showed zero, zippo, zilch when he did get a chance.

    according to hahn, he has shown nothing but a sour pus in practice and nothing demanding pt.

    it’s the coaches job to win games, not to develop players for the next coach that will be hired if the present coach doesn’t win enough.

    look at d’antoni’s handling of obey. he showed big in pre season and D”A started 2 rookies. mozgov then showed he wasn’t ready, but 2 months later (with a more peaceful game) moz got another chance from d’antoni and has made the most of it.

    i don’t see how a coach can start 2 unheralded rookies and not be giving players a…

  122. NateRobinson

    Bobneptune

    -Unfortunately for your argument that AR is somewhat at fault for the 6 game losing streak you have to realize that right after Timo got removed from the rotation the Knicks went on their winning streak. The PnR was not working, I like to put blame on players that play more than 10 minutes…

  123. StevenU

    @ bobneptune: “it’s the coaches job to win games, not to develop players…”
    Actually, a good coach, especially one with young players, is tasked with doing both winning games AND developing players-for the benefit of the TEAM that pays them milliuons of dollars-regardless of who the coach is in the future
    You argue both sides first (irrelevantly) stating the team went 2-6 with AR in the rotation and 13-1 after he was removed…and then (correctly) saying there is no correlation.
    We all know he played poorly, I love the kid and even I can’t argue that he deserved anything handed to him. I’d just say when you trade for a 21 year old, athletically gifted, multi-talented immature player, teaching him to reign in his game and developing him is exactly what your job IS.
    Dantoni has a long history of what I call a “divide and conquer” leadership style. Everyone knows he has a doghouse. He loves to have a scapegoat whenever things go wrong and he ALWAYS knows best. Yes, certain players that fit his system thrive…but I can not recall even one player in Phoenix or NY that he helped expand or improve their game. Can you?

  124. bobneptune

    NateRobinson: At the end of the day, I prefer a Paul/DWill, Fields, Gallo, STAT, Timo, Chandler, AR, TD roster than any roster that would gut our depth and kill our chances at our own big 3.  

    they’d almost be better off moving chandler for a 2013 pick, signing marc gasol to a contract memphis wouldn’t want to match (60 million 4 yrs front loaded), keep gallo fields and AR and TD and sign either dwill or cp3 after next season and forget melo.

    no matter whar steven a says, melo isn’t the last player in the world.

  125. art vandelay

    via Hahn:

    If Knicks can somehow keep Gallinari in this deal, as NBAtv says DEN prefers Mozgov/Fields instead, that would be amazing.about 4 hours ago Source: twitter

    Nuggets prefer Nets offer, but I keep hearing that Carmelo won’t sign the extension with NJN. Nugs hoping to scare him into doing it.about 4 hours ago Source: twitter

  126. erobes

    StevenU: @ bobneptune: “Yes, certain players that fit his system thrive…but I can not recall even one player in Phoenix or NY that he helped expand or improve their game. Can you?  

    Come on now, lets be fair. Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion and Leandro Barbosa come to mind. Not to mention Amare. All of these guys developed under Mike D.

  127. oakley34

    I dont see billups being an upgrade over felton at this point. First, obviously he is 34, second he doesent want to be here and has been quoted as wanting to make his way over to the Heat, third he is an awful fit for Dantonis offense. This is the part of the trade that hurts the most for me if it goes down. Chandler was a give in, it doesent bother me in losing him because at this point he was coming back. With Gallinari, I can accept as you have to give something to get something. Gallo Chandler and a No1 was my limit…The felton addition is what bothers me…I know the knicks want a shot at CP3 (knee issues) and Williams (not a NY kinda guy) I would much rather have Felton Anthony and Amare as our version of the big three.

    Sooo if this trade does go down…maybe we should dust off Roger mason and make him a vital part of an already weak bench…

  128. ess-dog

    art vandelay: via Hahn:If Knicks can somehow keep Gallinari in this deal, as NBAtv says DEN prefers Mozgov/Fields instead, that would be amazing.about 4 hours ago   

    Oof. That would be brutal. I assume we’d get JR Smith (the anti-Fields) if we give up Fields. And losing Randolph AND AR would just be too much. So if we give into that, we’re looking at:
    Billups/Smith/Melo/Gallo/Stat with Shawne/Barron/TD/Walker on the bench. That’s Fugly.
    Well, maybe this thing won’t happen after all? Then we can focus on getting Sessions and a back up big.

  129. erobes

    @ 141

    Problem is, felton is not a good fit for this offense either. He can run but he can’t shoot. Billups on the other hand can shoot but can’t really run (although he’s playing on a fairly fast paced team now). Neither guy is ideal, that’s why they’re both stopgaps for this team.

    Don’t really understand your issue with D-will. I’d give anything to get him on this team. He is a great player. Felton is, at best, an above-average PG. He’s not a big anything.

  130. StevenU

    Erobes: Joe Johnson is a bona fide all star and was well on his way with or without Damphony, or SSOL offense.
    Marion-an incredibly overrated player benefited hugely from running with Nash-and he already was what he is-a very good versatile defender and nothing more.
    And Barbosa is exactly the type of player I was talking about: An absolute perfect fit. he came with speed, ballhandling and 3pt range-which part of his game developed under Dantoni???
    Next you’ll tell me he made Steve Nash into a great player.
    And Amare? Really? You think Dantoni taught him to be the beast he is? he and Dantoni had an awful relationship and he came into the NBA ready to score at will against anyone-at age 19.
    Yes those guys were good players, I just do not see-at all-where Dantoni taught them a thing or helped them become the players they are.
    He does however, excel at blackballing guys and breaking down their confidence.

  131. bobneptune

    StevenU: @ bobneptune: “it’s the coaches job to win games, not to develop players…”
    Actually, a good coach, especially one with young players, is tasked with doing both winning games AND developing players-for the benefit of the TEAM that pays them milliuons of dollars-regardless of who the coach is in the future
    You argue both sides first (irrelevantly) stating the team went 2-6 with AR in the rotation and 13-1 after he was removed…and then (correctly) saying there is no correlation.
    We all know he played poorly, I love the kid and even I can’t argue that he deserved anything handed to him. I’d just say when you trade for a 21 year old, athletically gifted, multi-talented immature player, teaching him to reign in his game and developing him is exactly what your job IS.
    Dantoni has a long history of what I call a “divide and conquer” leadership style. Everyone knows he has a doghouse. He loves to have a scapegoat whenever things go wrong and he ALWAYS knows best. Yes, certain players that fit his system thrive…but I can not recall even one player in Phoenix or NY that he helped expand or improve their game. Can you?  

    who is in this long history of players that made it to the bad d’antoni irrevocable dog house:

    1….Vaseline eating metastatic starbury???
    2… fat boy curry???
    3… freak show N8???
    4… larry (don’t call me alfredrick) hughes ???

    was there any banishments here that weren’t warranted???

    others that looked like were in the chateau bow wow, but later emerged:

    TD…spent the first half of the season on the bench last year, but worked on his game and worked his way into the rotation.

    jordan hill… sucked and was out of shape in the summer league last year, but got his way into the rotation before getting moved at the deadline last year.

    so who are the myriad of guys who deserved pt but didn’t get it???

  132. Robert Silverman

    Well sure, but the odds of Phoenix doing that deal are nil.

    My head is really spinning – am I the only one who thinks this is WORSE/more agonizing than the LeBron/Decision fustercluck this summer?

  133. bobneptune

    erobes:
    Come on now, lets be fair.Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion and Leandro Barbosa come to mind.Not to mention Amare.All of these guys developed under Mike D.  

    just out of curiosity steven… how many times was nash league mvp before he met up with d’antoni??

    is raymond felton a better player under MD than under hall of fame coach LB? add all the above mentioned players.

    i get it you don’t like mr ssol very much and that is certainly fine, but the examples you chose to buttress your opinion are lol funny.

  134. JR Sec 112

    erobes, thanks for bringing some sense into this forum. Billups has, indeed, thrived in an uptempo offense and it was his arrival in Denver that made them a finals contender. As has been pointed out repeatedly, he’s still playing at a high level and he’s a much better shooter than Felton. That point is irrefutable.

    StevenU – enough with the ridiculous hyperbole. When was Shawn Marion overrated? in his prime he was a very good rebounder, an excellent defender, and good shooter with range. If anything, he was underrated.

  135. Brian Cronin

    I think D’Antoni is a good coach. Good coaches occasionally make dumb moves, and D’Antoni sure has made his share of them. It doesn’t make him a bad coach, just frustrating at times (like 99% of all NBA coaches).

    That said, I don’t think pointing at Nash or Felton really makes much sense, as Nash was a great player before D’Antoni, was a great player with D’Antoni and has been a great player since D’Antoni. Have you seen what Nash has put up this year? At 134 years old! Felton, meanwhile, is roughly having the same year he had last year.

    Coaches tend not to have dramatic impact on players when their role was the same before the coach as it was under the coach (like Nash and Felton). Their impact tends to lie when they change a player’s role and/or increase/decrease the player’s minutes (like D’Antoni with Joe Johnson).

  136. Doug

    From Hahn:
    “Nuggets prefer Nets offer, but I keep hearing that Carmelo won’t sign the extension with NJN. Nugs hoping to scare him into doing it”

    and… BREATHE…?

  137. bobneptune

    Donnie Walsh: I don’t want Carmelo but Mr. Dolan is insisting. Says he won’t pick up my contract if Carmelo’s not a Knick by Thursday :(Would you wise Knickerbloggers still respect me in the morning if I do this?:http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=4g9hfo3  

    dear mr donnie walsh,

    since you must have pictures or mr sarver with farm animals, i would suggest going to mr dolan and suggesting this:

    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2evsny4

    and then just sign melo in the off season keeping our good young players. also having the 3 oddest looking caucasians on the same roster might scare the customers a little too much with gortat, obey and nash.

    your heplful servant as always,

    bobneptune

  138. Robert Silverman

    The Felton-Billups inclusion in the trade is the part I don’t get. It’s clearly Denver’s belief that Felton is an upgrade of Billups and while that could be argued (7 years younger, faster, on a cheaper deal), they seemingly have their PG of the future in Lawson. Acquiring Felton puts that on hold for 1.5 years. If they’re really cleaning house, wouldn’t Billups buyout next year be the quicker road to achieving that goal? Basically, why do the Nugs want Raymond so much? Especially considering Billups has repeatedly stated he wants to finish his career in Denver.

    Brian – Steve Nassh was a good/very good player before MD’A showed up, but he became a 2-time MVP afterwards. And yes, he’s still playing at that level and he did make a big jump at age 30 (which is a serious statistical outlier). SSoL really is/was the perfect system for him.

    Regarding Fields/Gallo — I never thought I’d say this back in Nov, but I’d rather have Landry

  139. New Guy

    Wait? Now we’re talking Mozgov and Fields, too? This has to stop! Dolan left on his own at All Star weekend is a nightmare.

    Again: the likelihood of him going to the Nets is less than 0. Stop bidding against ourselves!

  140. Nick C.

    All I keep thinking is Amare and Melo are gonna work out like a fancier version of Curry and Randolph or for old school people, a lower grade version of McAdoo and Haywood.

  141. Brian Cronin

    By the way, Nash not being an All-Star is a joke. Russell Westbrook is having an amazing year, but he’s not nearly having the year Nash is. Not even close, really. Same with Deron Williams. Williams and Westbrook are both studs, and look to be All-Star players for a long time coming, but just this year, Nash has them both beat.

    Heck, even if you want to play the “look at their team!” game, Nash has his team over .500! His team is terrible besides him and they’re over .500! In the West!

  142. Robert Silverman

    New Guy: Wait? Now we’re talking Mozgov and Fields, too? This has to stop!Dolan left on his own at All Star weekend is a nightmare.Again: the likelihood of him going to the Nets is less than 0.Stop bidding against ourselves!  

    There’s some gossip on NBAtv that the Nugs are changing their mind (again) and prefer a Moz/Fields combo to Gallo. So the Nix would keep Gallo and lose the rooks.

  143. Doug

    New Guy: Wait? Now we’re talking Mozgov and Fields, too? This has to stop!Dolan left on his own at All Star weekend is a nightmare.Again: the likelihood of him going to the Nets is less than 0.Stop bidding against ourselves!  

    I’m hoping the Nuggets insist on Mozgov and/or Fields. The more they ask for too much, the less likely this deal will happen.

  144. rohank

    Not that I’m hoping for this to happen, but how funny would it be if Melo got injured in the All-Star game? What would happen???

    ***HEAD EXPLOSION***

  145. New Guy

    Robert Silverman:
    There’s some gossip on NBAtv that the Nugs are changing their mind (again) and prefer a Moz/Fields combo to Gallo. So the Nix would keep Gallo and lose the rooks.  

    I get it, but isn’t that worse for us?

  146. Brian Cronin

    Basically, why do the Nugs want Raymond so much? Especially considering Billups has repeatedly stated he wants to finish his career in Denver.

    I presume they plan to then flip him or Lawson for another area of need. Presumably Felton (that contract of Felton’s is just sooo good).

    Brian – Steve Nassh was a good/very good player before MD’A showed up, but he became a 2-time MVP afterwards.

    The Nash-led Mavericks had one of the best offenses of all-time. Then the Nash-led, D’Antoni-coached Suns had the best offense of all-time. Then the Nash-led, Gentry-coached Suns had one of the best offenses of all-time. I think Nash is just a really, really good point guard.

    That said, yeah, the fact that Nash’s peak came so late in his career certainly is weird.

  147. New Guy

    Doug:
    I’m hoping the Nuggets insist on Mozgov and/or Fields. The more they ask for too much, the less likely this deal will happen.  

    Is it? I’m kinda thinking this deal is going to happen no matter what they ask for. We’ll probably trade the right to switch draft picks for the next 9 years by the time Dolan leaves LA.

    Let’s face it, that idiot on his own in LA with all the attention this is getting will give up anything at this point.

  148. Brian Cronin

    I get it, but isn’t that worse for us?

    Depends on what you think about Gallo versus Fields/Mozgov.

    I agree that it is worse.

  149. Brian Cronin

    By the by, I don’t think Dolan is actually on his own. He’s just negotiating it in person. Dolan is getting counsel. I just hope it is from Walsh and not Isiah.

  150. New Guy

    At least if we give up Gallo we have a proper starting lineup remaining. If we swap fields and mozgov in, we have a 3, a 3 playing 4, a 4 playing 5, and no 2.

  151. cgreene

    I have been pretty much on the side of getting Melo for the most part. My main reason for this is because I think he will improve his efficiency in SSoL and playing with another major offensive force in Amare. I also think he will relish playing here the way Amare has and that he will work harder on his games because the spotlight here will demand it. I also see the chemistry working between he and Amare and Dantoni figuring out great ways to leverage that tandem.

    Having said that I think this trade is steep. I too think Gallo has potential and is underrated on D. I also like Ray’s heart. In the end I will be good either way so long as Donnie is calling the shots.

    The one thing that really really really bothers me about some of the comments here is the Anthony Randolph piece. He is not a budding star or someone that you “build a trade around”. His prospects of becoming a high impact player in the league are a long shot IMO. Sorry but you can’t teach brains. My opinion of MDA has changed for the worse since he has been here for a few reasons. (1) I think he is a bad communicator and I think that is more than half of coaching. Seems like he doesn’t like the communications/motivation part of the job. (2) It’s not that I think he doesn’t care about D or know how to teach it. It’s that I think the pace of SSoL actually makes playing D more difficult because players are more tired from playing faster and the speed of the game makes it difficult to get into good defensive sets (although I suppose that affects both teams as we have seen the Knicks make good D teams get taken out of their D game plans. BUT the thought he doesn’t develop players or give young players their opportunity is just plain false and the facts back that up. Period.

  152. Brian Cronin

    AR was the centerpiece of a trade for an All-Star last year. So obviously he was someone you build a major trade around, as he was someone a major trade was built around less than a year ago!

  153. Robert Silverman

    Brian Cronin:

    That said, yeah, the fact that Nash’s peak came so late in his career certainly is weird.  

    I’m just hoping that 5 years from now, we don’t have to read about how Phoenix’s training staff was supplying Nash with PED’s. (Don’t say y’all haven’t suspected something like that)

  154. Brian Cronin

    I’m just hoping that 5 years from now, we don’t have to read about how Phoenix’s training staff was supplying Nash with PED’s. (Don’t say y’all haven’t suspected something like that)

    You can’t possibly not consider it with Nash, Kobe, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, KG, all these guys playing at a high level in the “twilight” of their careers.

  155. New Guy

    I have to admit this has been brilliantly played by the Nuggets. With no leverage, they waited out Walsh til the fool entered the fray, then bluffed the shit out of him. Executives of the year if this goes through. And they should get a book written about them by that guy who did money ball! They saved their franchise.

  156. Brian Cronin

    Also, regarding AR: remember, the Knicks had their pick between two centerpieces for the Lee deal – AR and Monta Ellis, and they went with AR. So obviously the guy was held in very high esteem less than a year ago. And the Knicks were uniformly lauded for their great trade. And then they buried the centerpiece of their great trade (after first badly misusing him).

  157. New Guy

    Brian Cronin: Also, regarding AR: remember, the Knicks had their pick between two centerpieces for the Lee deal – AR and Monta Ellis, and they went with AR. So obviously the guy was held in very high esteem less than a year ago. And the Knicks were uniformly lauded for their great trade. And then they buried the centerpiece of their great trade (after first badly misusing him).  

    Never heard anything about monta being an option. And AR was the centerpiece of a sign-and-trade for an all star. There’s a difference between that and a straight trade.

  158. ess-dog

    Brian Cronin: AR was the centerpiece of a trade for an All-Star last year. So obviously he was someone you build a trade around, as he was someone a trade was built around less than a year ago!  

    Phoenix almost traded Amar’e for him as a centerpiece, remember that? AR is good, maybe not a good fit, but he’s good. Also remember that he was coming back from injury this year. I’m hoping we can hold onto him and let him finally get some minutes with the starters. Look at Perkins. He doesn’t strike me as infinitely more coachable than AR but surrounded by vets used to winning, he became an important piece for the Celts.
    Also, giving AR to Kahn of all people is a nightmare.
    The more I talk about any of these trade scenarios, the more I hope we just pull the plug. Use the cap space in July.

  159. Robert Silverman

    Brian Cronin: Also, regarding AR: remember, the Knicks had their pick between two centerpieces for the Lee deal – AR and Monta Ellis, and they went with AR. So obviously the guy was held in very high esteem less than a year ago. And the Knicks were uniformly lauded for their great trade. And then they buried the centerpiece of their great trade (after first badly misusing him).  

    Honestly, from all the reports out of training camp that are trustworthy (Hahn, Tommy Dee [yes - I wholly disagree with him about b-ball philosophy, but he does have good sources of info]), Randolph has been terrible, starting in camp and continuing through practices.

    If that’s true, you can’t build a team where guys get PT w/o earning it. It creates resentment/hostility and generally makes for a lousy work environment. I’m as big an AR supporter as anyone, but to play him when he hadn’t earned it would have been an awful decision.

    Oh, and I don’t think you can say they had their choice of Monta or AR. There was gossip, but if we’ve learned anything from the past 9 months (LeBron, cough), rumors mean zilch.

  160. cgreene

    Agree that there is a big difference between AR being the centerpiece of a straight up trade and a sign and trade. BTW, if we could have had Monta instead of AR we made the wrong choice haha because Monta is having a great year… oh… and he actually plays.

    My point is that Randolph has not had one significant 50 game stretch in a career ending its 3rd year. Yes he’s talented. So are a lot of guys. Doesn’t make him a good NBA player. He hasn’t proved that he can be and, frankly, I don’t care to wait a few more years to find out.

    I want to take our best shot with Amare now. As things currently stand both WITH and WITHOUT this trade we could vastly improve again in 2012 also. Let’s stack up and see if we can make some noise in the playoffs this year and next.

  161. massive

    New Guy:
    Never heard anything about monta being an option.And AR was the centerpiece of a sign-and-trade for an all star.There’s a difference between that and a straight trade.  

    I remember pretty clearly the Knicks having a choice between Al Jefferson and Monta Ellis. I guess they didn’t want either contract, and went with the cap flexibility.

  162. StevenU

    Nash has played at the same great level since Dantoni was chased out of town for being so arrogant, rubbing his players and his employers the wrong way and stubbornly refusing to add a defensive specialist to his coaching staff because his overblown ego could not handle it.
    Dantoni himself, when asked if it was his system of Nash that made the Suns go, said, and I quote, “I hope no one ever finds out”.
    You can not honestly belive he coached Steve Nash into the player he is. Or do you?
    And those players (Marion, Johnson and Barbosa were not my examples they were erobes’ examples of players he believed Dantoni improved).
    Raymond Felton is indeed thriving under Dantoni-although the list of PGs who struggled under Next Town Brown is pretty much endless.

  163. Frank O.

    For StevenU:

    Billups v. Felton, Age 26

    PER
    B 17.6
    F 17.3

    TS%
    B .582
    F .524

    eFG%
    B .506
    F .478

    3 pt%
    B .392
    F .328

    FT%
    B .878
    F .867

    Assists per 36
    B 4.4
    F 8.5

    Steals per 36
    B 1
    F 1.7

    TOs per 36
    B 2
    F 3.1

    Pts per 36
    B 19
    F 16

    *Snicker*
    Not at the differential; that you called me a stat head. Compared to guys on this site, Mike k., Caleb, Owen and others, I’m a complete and utter neophyte. :)

    BTW, statistically speaking way more often than not, what you are at 26 is what you are going to be.

    And while Ray is averaging more points per game and more assists than last year, both stats affected by pace, his TS% and eFG%, while better than his career numbers, are below last year (a contract year).
    His 3pt shooting, while better than career, is significantly off last year. From 38% last year to almost 33 percent this year.

    One other thing is up: He’s taking 3.5 more shots per 36.

    Nope, in my view, at 26, Billups was still a better player.
    In fact, it is unusual that Billups actually showed improvement since turning 26.

    He’s just better, more consistent, and a proven winner in the pros.

  164. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, age 26 is a really odd time to pick for Billups when he famously blossomed at age 25. So by 26 he was already a great player. His deal was that he sucked until he was 24, when he became good and then became really good the next year and has been a top-level player ever since. The only drawback about Billups is that he’s old. Everything else about him is awesome.

  165. Brian Cronin

    I would imagine that Nuggets fans would almost have to inherently hate pretty much every trade, because they’re losing the best player in the deal.

  166. art vandelay

    I also think in general fans (and GMs, for that matter) tend to overvalue their own players and undervalue opposing players unless they are superstars.

  167. Frank O.

    Whoa:
    http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/19/anthony-draws-the-line-with-nets/?src=tptw

    February 19, 2011, 3:35 PM
    Anthony Draws the Line With Nets
    By JONATHAN ABRAMS
    LOS ANGELES — Carmelo Anthony is informing those close to him that he will not sign a contract extension if he is traded to the Nets, according to a person aware of Anthony’s preference.

    —-
    This would be the leverage the Knicks were looking for to nail down a deal.
    Maybe Melo needed to see a commitment from the Knicks before he would give the Nets the heave-ho.

  168. cgreene

    Nice to know how much the Nugs fans love Melo though!

    NYTimes is reporting Melo has officially informed Nets he won’t sign with them.

  169. Robert Silverman

    Mainly, they’re peeved that they aren’t getting the Favors/Harris/picks deal. I get that.

    This is one of those times when I hate the internet/twitter. Back in the day (and yes, I’m about to sound like a grumpy old coot who talks about how he had to drag blocks of ice up a six mile hike to get to school where they only had inkwells), you’d get one batch of rumors from the Post/News (for you kids out there, a “news-paper” was a series of articles that were then printed and sold to the general public) a day. If anything happened, you might hear about it on the radio or TV that evening but generally you’d have to wait till the next day for the next batch of rumors/gossip.

    As late as 2001, I remember the first time I heard Ewing was on the move was in Vescey’s column. I certainly didn’t scour the net for confirmation or keep refreshing my iphone for updates.

    Ah, the simple life

  170. erobes

    @ 182

    I don’t want to hijack this into a D’antoni thread, but you are being ridiculous. First of all, D’Antoni wasn’t chased out of town. He was given permission to talk to other teams. Steve Kerr requested that he stay, but the relationship between the two had soured.

    Second, I don’t quite get your assessment of his player-developing skills. I pointed out three players that came to the Suns as young undeveloped players and blossomed. How can Dantoni not get any credit for that? If he gets no credit for those players, then no coach should ever get credit for anything.

    Finally, whatever you may think about him as a coach, I can tell you that all the personal defects you lay at his feet (an overblown ego, stubbornness and arrogance) are wrong. Just plain wrong. He’s a good guy.

  171. Brian Cronin

    NYTimes is reporting Melo has officially informed Nets he won’t sign with them.

    Which is weird. Why get to this point helping the Nuggets out and then make the turn now? I mean, it’s good for the Knicks, but still (by “good,” I of course mean that the Knicks will only have to add in Fields and three more picks instead of Fields, Mozgov and six more picks)….

  172. erobes

    Also, you’ve been harping on the idea that all our players (Gallo, Chandler, Felton) are currently improving and developing. How can you argue that both our young players are improving an our coach sucks at improving young players? It makes no sense.

  173. erobes

    Brian Cronin:
    Which is weird. Why get to this point helping the Nuggets out and then make the turn now? I mean, it’s good for the Knicks, but still (by “good,” I of course mean that the Knicks will only have to add in Fields and three more picks instead of Fields, Mozgov and six more picks)….  

    It is weird. What’s also weird is that Prokhorov says he’s not meeting with Melo and never had plans to. I’m officially not paying attention to any more of these stupid rumors till the trade is done. I’m starting to believe just about everything out there is misinformation, either from Anthony’s camp (to force a trade) or from the Nuggets (to gain some leverage). I mean really, where the hell did all these new Nets rumors come from?

  174. Robert Silverman

    erobes:
    It is weird.What’s also weird is that Prokhorov says he’s not meeting with Melo and never had plans to.I’m officially not paying attention to any more of these stupid rumors till the trade is done.I’m starting to believe just about everything out there is misinformation, either from Anthony’s camp (to force a trade) or from the Nuggets (to gain some leverage).I mean really, where the hell did all these new Nets rumors come from?  

    The fact that anyone believed anything a mobbed-up Russian Oligarch said is kinda goofy.

  175. ess-dog

    Robert Silverman: FWIW, I was just reading a couple of Denver Nugs blogs, and they HATE this deal (the Felt/Gallo/Chandler one).
    http://www.denverstiffs.com/2011/2/19/2002782/golden-nuggets-get-ready-to-root-for-ray-gallo-and-chandler  

    That was an interesting read. I agree with them about Chandler. I’d rather have Fields or Moz than Chandler b/c of his free agent status. And I wouldn’t particularly want Ray either if I was a Nuggets fan with Lawson waiting in the wings. I’m not sure they see the value in Gallo though.

    They seem to want a big. If I’m Denver I’d want three of Moz/Gallo/AR/Fields and a pick…

  176. Frank

    you know, I am just about fed up with ESPN. Now there’s an article by Rob Parker saying that the Nets are a better fit for Carmelo than the Knicks. That is so obviously just there to attract pageviews.

    and yet i still clicked on it. such a sucker.

  177. bobneptune

    i wonder if walsh is able to pull dolan in from the ledge, will the moron realize by putting his big, red ,bulbous, alcoholic nose in this mess he almost gave away the entire team for no reason?

  178. d-mar

    So if Melo is now categorically saying he will not sign an extension with NJ, what leverage does Denver have left? Their only threat would be: “give us some serious assets or no deal, and we’ll take our chances that Melo re-signs with us in the offseason” That just seems like a chance they wouldn’t take. So what should the Knicks do now? (and when I say Knicks I really really hope Donnie is still involved) They could say, look, we feel like we’re giving up too much, so here’s Chandler, Curry and a pick, take it or leave it. Or, conversely, the Knicks say you can have the players and the picks in the current proposed deal, but we want Lawson or Nene back along with Billups. Then Denver gets pissed, and keeps beating the bushes for the next 4 days to try and scare the Knicks again into re-offering the kitchen sink. The only danger in that Knicks strategy would be to piss off Melo, but something tells me we are in constant communication with him and he would understand our strategy. It’s some serious brinkmanship, but may be worth a shot.

  179. ess-dog

    d-mar: So if Melo is now categorically saying he will not sign an extension with NJ, what leverage does Denver have left?   

    Melo wants 22 mil not 17 mil and wants to move to NY asap. Denver knows this and can keep him from getting this. So Melo has to pressure NYK to get a deal done.
    I am really SO sick of this.

  180. John Kenney

    I was very put off by the idea of losing Moz/Fields instead of Gallo. I want to keep Gallo obviously, but giving our 2 and 5 so we can get a 3 and keep a 3 is dumb to me, and I think Fields can absolutely be the glue guy on a championship team. Thoughts?

  181. cgreene

    John Kenney: I was very put off by the idea of losing Moz/Fields instead of Gallo. I want to keep Gallo obviously, but giving our 2 and 5 so we can get a 3 and keep a 3 is dumb to me, and I think Fields can absolutely be the glue guy on a championship team. Thoughts?  

    agree. basketball is having the right pieces in the right places. redundancies dont work well usually

  182. ww007

    Long time Knick fan here and 1st time poster. I thought I had to chime on this ridiculous trade.

    I think that whole Carmelo would “seriously consider” signing with the Nets was just a bunch of BS. I think he just wanted to see if the Knicks were serious, and the fact that he now says he won’t sign with the Nets proves this point. Assuming that any of these rumors is true of course.

    I agree with Chandler, Curry, and AR being our final offer. Chandler we were gonna lose anyway do to salary cap issues. Curry has an expiring contract that could be useful to the Nuggets. And AR, well who knows what AR is gonna be since we never use him anyway.

    Mark my words, Gallo is gonna be a superstar in this league some day, in the same vein as Dirk Nowitzki. He has an incredible touch from the outside AND he likes to take it to the hole. The guy is only 22!! 22!!! You don’t give up on potential like that, not even for Carmelo. Now if it were LeBron James, that’s another story…

    And as others have said before, you don’t gut your team unless the trade is clearly lopsided in your favor. Adding Gallo or Fields to the mix deprives you of a potential future star player. Plus Denver has NO LEVERAGE! They can take what we give them or just lose Carmelo for nothing in the off-season. Why would we offer them anything significant???

  183. StevenU

    @erobes
    Robert Sarver and Steve Kerr did not want Dantoni back. Once he refused Kerr’s insistence that he add a defensive coach to his staff, they wanted him out. Despite all those wins. Similar to when Rick Carlisle was sent packing in Detroit. The reputation of a coach can benefit or suffer due to player performance and sometimes it really is luck or coincidence. I watch all the games and the post game stuff and imo, Dantoni comes across as beyond arrogant-as though he is some kind of legendary hall of fame genius type, and even his speedball system was by no means his invention.
    I did not mean to go off topic either-I only thought it relevant because a piece of this trade proposal is AR or the pick they’re supposed to get for him-and I was merely agreeing with another poster (Brian) that a year ago the Knicks were all jazzed about AR and now his value is a mid to late 1st round pick.
    If the report that Melo won’t extend with NJ is correct the Knicks should immediately lower their offer. Anything less is poor management and a waste of resources. The first offer was plenty under the circumstance-that circumstance being that they are a much improved 6th place in the east team with a lot of youth and potential to improve with normal maturation for the young guys-Mosgov, Gallo Chandler and Fields. That those 4 are as good as they are, should allow the Knicks to wait a bit to see what they have in AR. And if Melo really won’t sign the extension with the Nets, why give up one drop more than needed?
    Adding Melo if you lose all the assets is a big picture setback as they do not immediately become title contenders by a long stretch and I don’t think anyone would even argue that point.

  184. ww007

    And I forgot to mention, Billups is already over the hill. I can live with trading him for Felton if absolutely necessary, but I like felton’s scrappiness. But honestly I don’t think it really matters either way.

  185. ess-dog

    I’m really torn on Moz. One minute I just think he’s a big stiff and the next I think he’s the key to us going deep in the playoffs. It sounds like he’s got the work ethic and focus. And he’s big and pretty athletic for his size.

    Fields, we have enough data to know he’s good. I suppose if we could switch Gallo and Moz in the currently proposed trade, I would, but I don’t think Denver would want that.

  186. StevenU

    ww007-I agree 100%.
    Great sensible first post in a sea of people who seem to think Melo IS LeBron/Shaq/Mike
    He just isn’t.

  187. Doug

    bobneptune: http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/19/anthony-draws-the-line-with-nets/?src=tptwit looks like someone has spoken to melo and explained to him if the nix give up too much, it isn’t a good deal for him either, even if he gets top dollar.so…. he shifts the leverage back to the nix.final deal should look like chandler, curry and AR in some permutation. if there is a swap of point guards… so be it.  

    Hallelujah. Reason prevails.

    (OR HAS IT?)

  188. JR Sec 112

    SteveU, glad you found someone as delusional as you on the board…

    Denver wont do the deal for Chandler, AR, and Curry. I think they could get more than that from Dallas to rent Melo for this year’s playoffs (which would give Dallas a real shot at the title, btw.

    I’m reiterating my call that James Dolan is Executive of the Year. He send DW and MDA out in the press to say, we dont even want Melo. And then he went to LA to say to the Nuggets, ok, I’m the boss here, and I’ll play nice and give you Gallo. Giving the appearance that the Nuggets are getting a decent deal. Brilliant. The only people who dont see that as a good deal for the Knicks are on this blog, and have become way too attached to Gallo. Everyone else in the basketball world will remember this deal for being a steal for the Knicks.

  189. Frank

    JR Sec 112: SteveU, glad you found someone as delusional as you on the board…Denver wont do the deal for Chandler, AR, and Curry.I think they could get more than that from Dallas to rent Melo for this year’s playoffs (which would give Dallas a real shot at the title, btw.

    First of all, Dallas will not and can’t give a better deal. The only guy on their team that is desirable/young is Beaubois and they’re not dealing him. And Melo has already said he won’t sign an extension there. So that possibility is dead.

    Chandler, Curry, Felton, $3M, and a #1 pick from Minny/AR, while not awesome in overall basketball value, is a HUGE money saver for Denver between Minny swallowing Curry’s fat contract, them getting under the luxury tax, etc. They would probably clear >$20M from a deal like that, and still have Felton and a #1 pick to show for it even if Chandler goes elsewhere.

    Not saying that they’ll do that — My feeling is that Gallo stays and either Mozgov or Fields goes — but it’s not as bad as it sounds.

    And there’s no way they can get a better deal than that anywhere, $$ and basketball value, if Melo won’t sign an extension with the Nets.

  190. JR Sec 112

    They dont need much from Dallas or anyone else to have a better deal than this one. too early to say what anyone else would offer to have Melo for the 2nd half of the season and the playoffs.

    I believe Denver can also waive Billups at the end of the year (2011-2 is a team option) and use Lawson as starting PG. Thats cheaper than Felton, right?

    Personally, I think if the Knicks dont give up enough Denver may just decide to wait it out and call Carmelo’s bluff. Thats why the Knicks have to offer SOMETHING in the deal.

  191. Z-man

    Damn, going through this twice in just a few month has been excruciating. Hopefully this time things turn out well.

  192. Spree8nyk8

    JR Sec 112: SteveU, glad you found someone as delusional as you on the board…The only people who dont see that as a good deal for the Knicks are on this blog, and have become way too attached to Gallo.Everyone else in the basketball world will remember this deal for being a steal for the Knicks.

    Absolutely correct. Most of the members of this board are so focused on our current players that they are missing the bigger picture. If you have league pass broadband I’d encourage you to go watch some of denver’s recent games or download the game from here http://bt.davka.info/index.php?show_all=1 . That guy right now is beasting so hard right now it’s not even funny. And he’s doing it for a team he doesn’t even wanna play for. Imagine what he’s gonna do for us. None of these guys we are giving up are unreplaceable. Gallo, chandler we can find other guys (who knows maybe they even come back later on down the road). This trade will probably make us better by the playoffs and will be huge for us a year or two down the road. I knew when I got home today the tears were gonna be rampant on this board though lol. Pretty funny.

  193. Frank

    I don’t think most people Would disagree that Melo would be great for this team. But neither do you go and spend your life savings on a Honda civic because it’s a great car. Really, it’s would you rather have Melo AND Gallo or just Melo? There has to be some thought of value and making a GOOD deal. Denver is the team that is under the gun, not us. We’ll still be fine, but there is no way Melo will sign the extension with the Nuggets after this, so other than a hail Mary hope of a franchise tag, if they don’t make a trade, Melo walks and they get nothing. Worst case scenario (other than gutting the team) is Melo resigns, we retain all our young guys, and have tons of flexibility going forward. This is still NYC and we still have enough good players that FAs will want to come here.

  194. tastycakes

    I’m not super psyched about the latest proposed deal but a couple of things to keep in mind:

    1. Our ‘gutted’ roster would not be that hard to fill out in upcoming years — we will have first round picks, and there is always the MLE. The Heat seem to have done fine picking up cheap role players (and one possibly overpaid one in Miller) with this strategy.

    2. Melo and Stat both will hold great trade value — if the deal truly is a bust and the Knicks with Melo languish in mediocrity, don’t you think the Hornets or Jazz might be amenable to taking back Melo in a sign and trade for CP3 or DW? Or, use Melo to get a quality package of picks and young guys, much like the Nets theoretically are offering.

    The deal and Melo’s contract might hurt our flexibility in the FA market, but in the trade market?

  195. bobneptune

    Spree8nyk8: grrrr messed up the quote.This part of it was what I was saying not the quote:Absolutely correct. Most of the members of this board are so focused on our current players that they are missing the bigger picture. If you have league pass broadband I’d encourage you to go watch some of denver’s recent games or download the game from here http://bt.davka.info/index.php?show_all=1 . That guy right now is beasting so hard right now it’s not even funny. And he’s doing it for a team he doesn’t even wanna play for. Imagine what he’s gonna do for us. None of these guys we are giving up are unreplaceable. Gallo, chandler we can find other guys (who knows maybe they even come back later on down the road). This trade will probably make us better by the playoffs and will be huge for us a year or two down the road. I knew when I got home today the tears were gonna be rampant on this board though lol. Pretty funny.  

    he might be “beasting hard” in your words, but while he is beasting, his team is 4-7 for their last 11 and he is filling up the offensive stat sheet.

    and remember… he is on a team with lots of good players, billups, nene, afflalo, etc.

    and 5 of those 7 losses are against under .500 teams: philly, nj, houston twice and golden state.

    melo is a gifted scorer of the basketball, but he doesn’t contribute enough in other areas (defense, rebounding, shot blocking assists, steals, etc ) to warrant giving up the ranch for.

    especially when you can get him for nothing but cash 7/1 if he’ll just sit chilly for a bit.

  196. bobneptune

    tastycakes: I’m not super psyched about the latest proposed deal but a couple of things to keep in mind:1.Our ‘gutted’ roster would not be that hard to fill out in upcoming years — we will have first round picks, and there is always the MLE.The Heat seem to have done fine picking up cheap role players (and one possibly overpaid one in Miller) with this strategy.2.Melo and Stat both will hold great trade value — if the deal truly is a bust and the Knicks with Melo languish in mediocrity, don’t you think the Hornets or Jazz might be amenable to taking back Melo in a sign and trade for CP3 or DW?Or, use Melo to get a quality package of picks and young guys, much like the Nets theoretically are offering.The deal and Melo’s contract might hurt our flexibility in the FA market, but in the trade market?  

    try trading a disgruntled pro to somewhere he has no interest going and see how that works out.

  197. art vandelay

    Who is to say that if we offend denver with another low-ball offer they don´t tell us to go screw ourselves, they call carmelo´s bluff and he gets pissed off and decides we are screwing with him and takes the nets offer at the last minute….I really think that if it came to it he would take the money to play in jersey rather than play in ny for less money by signing as a FA if it finally did come down to it…this is why I would fear seeing denver call his bluff, as I think he would actually cave….and denver will definitely do this if we substantially change the terms of our offer I believe….I could see maybe tinkering a bit with it to make it more favorable, but they are really playing with fire if they offer now what they offered initially with chandler and basically nothing more.

  198. Owen

    We can discuss various versions of the trade but it doesn’t really really matter what we give away with possible exception of fields. The talent lost will be inconsequential relative to the opportunity cost of paying melo a max salary. I.e. The price we are paying to get him is trivial compared to the cost, which is potentially Paul or Howard.

    Melo and amare will mean at least three years of genteel mediocrity without any real hope of building a dominant team. You can’t win paying a third tier star like melo max money. It’s as simple as that.

    I wish we could post a poll. Would be interesting to know what percentage of knickerbloggers don’t want melo at any price

  199. art vandelay

    The same was said by everyone on this board when the Knicks acquired STAT this summer and they are 9 games better than they were at this point last season.

  200. Frank

    You know- we could never make an offer that would beat favors, Harris, 4 1st rounders, and the al Harrington balkman albatrosses. So why even bother? If Melo is willing to work in anonymity for the rest of his prime to get his $65M then he will. Stick firm with our offer, and leave it up to Melo. If he wants fame, ridiculous $$$, and a chance to play for championships with the team he’s wanted all the time, then he can. If he wants anonymity, ridiculous $$$+x, and no chance for championships while watching brook Lopez grab 4 rebounds/game and getting yelled at all day by Avery Johnson, then he can also. It’s always been up to him.

    So stay strong Donnie!

  201. Owen

    Were we wrong about amare? Or wrong about Landry fields, currently the best (if not most exciting) rookie in the nba by several measures?

  202. Frank

    OK – few things.
    #1 – Landry Fields is great but he is obviously not the best rookie in the NBA. He’s probably #3 behind Griffin and Wall. He’s a nice player and very valuable to us but let’s not get crazy here. If you really think that Fields is the best rookie in the NBA, then also tell me you wouldn’t trade him for Blake Griffin. Thought so.

    #2 – not to bring up another poker analogy, but this is really what it is. We’ve got and KNOW we have the best hand at the table. We’re also sure that NJ and Denver have vastly inferior hands to ours – say a low pocket pair when we’ve got pocket aces. So what are we doing? we’re slow playing them so they can get to the river and hope for one of their two outs to get 3 of a kind? Ridiculous. Put the pressure ON NOW. Make it very uncomfortable for them to play this game. SpreeNYK8 – your’e the poker player — TELL THEM. I seriously would tell them – you have until Sunday 9 am to accept this offer. After that, Gallo is out of the deal. If you don’t accept that deal by Tuesday, then the Felton/Billups part is out also. PUT THE PRESSURE ON.

    The fact that this has gotten so ridiculously amateurish on our part makes it so clear to me that Dolan has his paws in this. Man I hate that dude, and I don’t even know him.

  203. art vandelay

    Isola from daily news reporting that melo is meeting with new jersey tonight….not sure if it is bogus or not….this truly is a soap opera!

  204. d-mar

    @222 Owen, c’mon, Melo a third tier star? That’s just ridiculous. So I guess that means if you substitute the 20 or so better players than Melo (if that comprises your first and second tier) on Denver the past few years, they would have done a whole lot better? Nobody wants to pay any player other than the LeBrons and the Kobes max money, but that’s the world we live in.

  205. JK47

    Now Melo is apparently saying he won’t sign with the Nets, which I think we’ve all sort of known all along.

    So I think it’s time to scale the offer back to Curry, Chandler and Randolph (or the pick acquired for Randolph) for Melo. If the Nuggs insist on the Felton/Billups swap, then they take back Azubuike’s expiring to make the contracts work.

    Billups/Fields/Anthony/Stoudemire/Mozgov with Gallinari as the 6th man and Douglas, Williams, Turiaf, Walker as the bench players is a pretty saucy team.

  206. bobneptune

    art vandelay: Who is to say that if we offend denver with another low-ball offer they don´t tell us to go screw ourselves, they call carmelo´s bluff and he gets pissed off and decides we are screwing with him and takes the nets offer at the last minute….I really think that if it came to it he would take the money to play in jersey rather than play in ny for less money by signing as a FA if it finally did come down to it…this is why I would fear seeing denver call his bluff, as I think he would actually cave….and denver will definitely do this if we substantially change the terms of our offer I believe….I could see maybe tinkering a bit with it to make it more favorable, but they are really playing with fire if they offer now what they offered initially with chandler and basically nothing more.  

    art,

    you cannot stop people from cutting off their collective noses to spite their collective faces.

    if carmelo is willing to play with brook lopez and kris humphrey as his sidekicks, good luck to him. if the kronkes are willing to get nothing for melo rather than be told what to do by a black/puerto rican guy, they can certainly do that, too.

    not very smart…. but they are free to be foolish.

    that doesn’t mean the nix have to join the insanity.

  207. art vandelay

    I am completely confounded by this deluge of conflicting information…he won{t sign with them but he is meeting with them tonight now….clearly denver is going to exhaust every possible thing in its arsenal to not make this trade with NYK….I don{t think this will go down, if at all, until almost 3 pm on thursday.

  208. Frank O.

    Fascinating, the angst of this board. :)
    I started against a big trade for Melo.
    But I see that we can’t keep WC, so the best move is to get some value for him.
    I’m conflicted about losing Gallo.
    I like getting Billups, who is still an elite scoring guard.
    I think Melo will be a great player in this system.

    Owen:
    If the Knicks waive Billups, which they can, after the season, they instantly create space. They’re not out of the hunt, even if they get him this year.

  209. Owen

    Fields has been a million times better than wall and a little better than griffin by some measures, though griffin projects better.

  210. Frank O.

    Owen:

    The Knicks would have several days after the end of the season to waive Billups, according to his contract.
    I don’t love Berman, but he mentioned this:
    “This refers to the belief that acquiring Anthony now will lead to New York signing Chris Paul in 2012 when he becomes a free agent and cap space is created by the expiring contract of Chauncey Billups. Like Anthony and LeBron James, Paul is represented by CAA.”

    Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/211123/Paul_In_2012_Becomes_Factor_With_New_Trade_Offer_From_Knicks#ixzz1ESRNLEK1

  211. jkhar

    Owen: Fields has been a million times better than wall and a little better than griffin by some measures, though griffin projects better.  

    Projects better? The guy is dominant at his position, as a rookie. Once in a generation talent! Griffin should not be compared to Fields, much less Wall. come on people lets use common sense now…

  212. bobneptune

    d-mar: @222 Owen, c’mon, Melo a third tier star? That’s just ridiculous. So I guess that means if you substitute the 20 or so better players than Melo (if that comprises your first and second tier) on Denver the past few years, they would have done a whole lot better? Nobody wants to pay any player other than the LeBrons and the Kobes max money, but that’s the world we live in.  

    he said 3rd tier STAR not 3rd tier player

    lebron
    kobe
    d wade
    durant
    d rose
    howard

    cp3
    d williams
    dirk
    gasol

    everybody else

    nash
    bosh
    amar’e
    melo
    aldrich
    westbrook

  213. bobneptune

    art vandelay: I am completely confounded by this deluge of conflicting information…he won{t sign with them but he is meeting with them tonight now….clearly denver is going to exhaust every possible thing in its arsenal to not make this trade with NYK….I don{t think this will go down, if at all, until almost 3 pm on thursday.  

    you are close…. i’m betting on tuesday night. melo’s contract needs to be extended and that takes a little time (although i’m sure the parameters of this have already been discussed with dolan) and denver has other moves to make like nene, etc.

  214. Frank O.

    bobneptune:
    you are close…. i’m betting on tuesday night. melo’s contract needs to be extended and that takes a little time (although i’m sure the parameters of this have already been discussed with dolan) and denver has other moves to make like nene, etc.  

    Denver wants to pull the trigger by tomorrow night because they need to make other moves before the deadline and they need to know what pieces they have.

  215. Owen

    Thanks bob. That is correct although my list would look a little bit different.

    Re fields and griffin, fields has had a better year so far. If griffin can learn to shoot foul shots and play defense better he might be an all timer. Fields of course doesn’t have that upside. But I would rather have had fields over the last fifty games. And I would feel pretty comfortable having fields at 6 million per rather than griffin at 16 over the next five years.

    Jon abbey has been saying for a long time that the Knicks will never win a championship with Dolan in charge. I realize now how right he has been.

    For my part, i have been saying for nearly as long that the Knicks should bide their time until they can hire a legitimate first tier superstar, the kind of player we haven’t had in new York since maybe ever. Everything should be geared towards preparing for that moment. That should be the goal. That’s what the fans in the garden deserve. It’s kind of tragic with how the potential to do something special in 2012 that we are going to blow our ao on melo.

  216. d-mar

    @238 Ok, the first ten on your list might be better than Melo, but how many of them are available TODAY? 7 out of the 10 are locked up medium or long term, so that leaves CP3, D Will and Howard. We’d all love to have any of those 3, but are they going to be available, and will they want to come to NYC? You’ve gotta grab a guy now who really wants to play here, and while Melo may not fall into your top 10, he”s just on the bubble IMO.

  217. Z

    Owen: We can discuss various versions of the trade but it doesn’t really really matter what we give away with possible exception of fields. The talent lost will be inconsequential relative to the opportunity cost of paying melo a max salary. I.e. The price we are paying to get him is trivial compared to the cost, which is potentially Paul or Howard…
    Melo and amare will mean at least three years of genteel mediocrity without any real hope of building a dominant team. You can’t win paying a third tier star like melo max money. It’s as simple as that.   

    If the Knicks make this trade and extend Melo for the max, this is what our salary situation looks like in the summer of 2012:

    Amar’e:$19,950,000
    Melo: $19,450,000

    Total: $39,400,000

    (Team options on Mozgov ($3,140,000) and Douglas ($2,000,000) and a QO due for Fields and Rautins).

    So, considering the new CBA, a shrunken cap, and the necessity of signing other players to round out the team, a Paul/Howard/Deron signing is probably not going to happen in 2012…

    However, if one of them “pulls a Carmelo” and demands a trade to NY, the Knicks would have the expiring contracts to easily make it happen. The only question would be, do they have the additional young assets/picks to make it happen. THAT is why it matters whether the Knicks overpay in players this week.

  218. Brian Cronin

    THAT is why it matters whether the Knicks overpay in players this week.

    It’s also why the Felton/Billups part of the trade is fairly important, as you could definitely see Utah/NO picking up signed (and cheap) through 2013 Felton (plus assets, of course) but not so much 35 going on 36 and a free agent himself Billups.

  219. Brian Cronin

    They just asked Barkley how many threes he took in his career and what percentage he shot. He was basically right about the percentage (he said 25%, it was actually roughly 27%), but he said he took about 150 total. Did you know he actually took over 2,000 threes in his career? He took over 200 in a season three times and was over 150 for 8 out of 9 years in his prime. It was only at the end of his career that he stopped taking them entirely (just 20 or so a season). Wow, I did not remember him being that big of a three-point shooter. To put that into context, Larry Johnson only took over 200 threes in one season (and never with the Knicks).

  220. latke

    Stop thinking about Randolph’s possible mental issues. If I said, play Anthony Randolph 15 MPG and it increases your odds of winning an NBA championship by 20%, would you jump on that chance?

    I don’t know that that’s the exact number, but it undoubtedly improves our chances. If Randolph simply put up the numbers he put up in his first year, even if he somehow managed to sabotage games during those 15 minutes, per 36 numbers of 16.5 pts, 11.1 rebounds, 2.5 blocks and 1.5 steals = 1st team all nba numbers. Put those stats on the body of a 21 year old, and you have hall of fame potential. I’m not saying he’s likely to make the hall of fame, just that his numbers are off the charts, and when a young player puts up those kinds of numbers, you pull out all the stops to get him minutes.

    If you secretly believe that his attitude will continue to cause problems, you do your best to mask those attitude problems from other teams, and you trade him when the right offer comes along, claiming “we’re looking to win now.” The knicks have done the opposite, flouting his attitude problems to the world by not even offering him token minutes.

  221. Frank

    Latke- Actually no one has flouted his attitude problems- it’s just been conjecture by the press and by the armchair critics like us. The Knicks have consistently just said that they think they have a better chance to win with other players now.

    Now what if I agree with you and say that there is a 20% increase in the chance of winning a championship but that your original chance was only 1% so with him playing it is 1.2%. But by playing him you send a message to the team that hard work in practice and being a good teammate doesn’t count for anything. Does that change your equation? Now before you say I’m speculating, your entire post was pure speculation, so we’re both speculating.

  222. BigBlueAL

    Anthony Randolph in his 2 seasons with Golden St had TS%’s of .506 and .521 and his WS/48, which is a favorite stat of many here, was BELOW .1 both seasons (.069 and .098).

    Yeah, definite future member of the HOF.

  223. Frank O.

    From Yahoo.Sports!, reason to be deeply, deeply disturbed:

    Several league sources believe Knicks owner James Dolan is leaning heavily on the advice of former president and coach Isiah Thomas and undermining the negotiating process for current president Donnie Walsh.

  224. Brian Cronin

    Anthony Randolph in his 2 seasons with Golden St had TS%’s of .506 and .521 and his WS/48, which is a favorite stat of many here, was BELOW .1 both seasons (.069 and .098).

    Yeah, definite future member of the HOF.

    Interesting you mention that, as the most recent inductee into the Hall of Fame, Scottie Pippen, opened up with sub 1.00 WS/48 in his first three seasons (.66, .80, .87), and AR is currently younger than Pippen was in his rookie season (Pippen had a sub .5 TS% his first season with a .489 and was at .524 and .528 his 2nd and 3rd seasons).

  225. KnickInSeattle

    Guys, if AR has all the potential to contribute immediately to a quality NBA team, why hasn’t there been any reported interest in him from playoff teams?

  226. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin:
    Interesting you mention that, as the most recent inductee into the Hall of Fame, Scottie Pippen, opened up with sub 1.00 WS/48 in his first three seasons (.66, .80, .87), and AR is currently younger than Pippen was in his rookie season (Pippen had a sub .5 TS% his first season with a .489 and was at .524 and .528 his 2nd and 3rd seasons).   

    You AR fans are something. Amazing after his body of work so far that people still call him a future All-Star, All-NBA 1st teamer and HOFer.

    Its one thing to say he could help the team with his rebounding and shot-blocking because he certainly could. But Jesus Christ these other terms used to describe him is unbelievable (not contributing all these terms to one person, I have actually read him being called the above 3 in different posts by different people throughout the season).

  227. latke

    I’m not calling him a future hall of famer, just that his numbers look that way, and that will draw serious attention from GMs. Not everyone looks so hard at advanced stats (and even those advanced stats are pretty good for a young player — John Wall’s WS/48 is .048, LBJ’s rookie season he was only .078). Like I’ve posted previously, Blake Griffin already has more career NBA minutes than Anthony Randolph. Even if in conjunction with a bad practice attitude CIA experts psychologically profiled Randolph as a 100% shot of being a career loser, his lack of minutes would make it hard for me to call that sufficient evidence to give up on him.

    Frank, I know we’re both speculating. I see your point. I just see it then as MDA’s private pet project to work with him privately — do whatever it takes — to get him to play hard enough in practice so other players see it as simply player development rather than an indication that hard work doesn’t matter. Again, I know I’m speculating — perhaps MDA has done this. But if that’s the case, then I feel like it still goes back to him in that he failed, even with the promise of playing time, to get his young player to make an effort.

    IMO, a big part of being a good NBA coach is knowing how to push a player’s buttons so that he moves in the right direction. Some players come to the league with drive (kobe bryant), some players you have to prod along (andrew bynum), and then there are certainly some players who no one can break through to. We don’t know if AR falls into that category, but my impression of MDA (again speculation) is that he’s not the best diplomat in the league, so I doubt the full effort has been made.

  228. TDM

    Late to the thread so apologies if already posted, but I read an article saying that the other DEN pieces being thrown into the deal are Shelden Williams and – none other than – Renaldo Balkman. Egad. Shelden has blossomed a bit in DEN but seems to have underachieved ever since he came into the league. Balkman – high on potential . . . as well as other things.

  229. BigBlueAL

    TDM: Late to the thread so apologies if already posted, but I read an article saying that the other DEN pieces being thrown into the deal are Shelden Williams and – none other than – Renaldo Balkman.Egad.Shelden has blossomed a bit in DEN but seems to have underachieved ever since he came into the league.Balkman – high on potential . . . as well as other things.  

    What I dont get is how are the Nuggets adding more salary to Billups and Melo when the players the Knicks are giving up dont even match their salaries let alone when adding more players from the Nuggets end.

  230. jon abbey

    Owen: We can discuss various versions of the trade but it doesn’t really really matter what we give away with possible exception of fields. The talent lost will be inconsequential relative to the opportunity cost of paying melo a max salary. I.e. The price we are paying to get him is trivial compared to the cost, which is potentially Paul or Howard.
    Melo and amare will mean at least three years of genteel mediocrity without any real hope of building a dominant team. You can’t win paying a third tier star like melo max money. It’s as simple as that.I wish we could post a poll. Would be interesting to know what percentage of knickerbloggers don’t want melo at any price  

    what’s fascinating about all of this is that this is both 100 percent accurate and possibly 100 percent wrong (if Williams/Howard/Paul will only come to NY if Melo is there). we have no way of knowing, not that it’s stopping anyone from yammering endlessly on both sides.

  231. Z

    Brian Cronin:
    It’s also why the Felton/Billups part of the trade is fairly important, as you could definitely see Utah/NO picking up signed (and cheap) through 2013 Felton (plus assets, of course) but not so much 35 going on 36 and a free agent himself Billups.  

    Perhaps, but Billup’s $14 million expiring matches up better with the contracts of Paul, Deron, Howard, etc….

    Looking at the players we seem willing to give up, here, I have to wonder: what do could we obtain if we sold Gallo, Felton, Chandler, AR, and Curry off piecemeal? Potentially quite a nice haul, no?

  232. bobneptune

    d-mar: @238 Ok, the first ten on your list might be better than Melo, but how many of them are available TODAY? 7 out of the 10 are locked up medium or long term, so that leaves CP3, D Will and Howard. We’d all love to have any of those 3, but are they going to be available, and will they want to come to NYC? You’ve gotta grab a guy now who really wants to play here, and while Melo may not fall into your top 10, he”s just on the bubble IMO.  

    Frank O.: From Yahoo.Sports!, reason to be deeply, deeply disturbed:Several league sources believe Knicks owner James Dolan is leaning heavily on the advice of former president and coach Isiah Thomas and undermining the negotiating process for current president Donnie Walsh.  

    still the best line on this board all week:

    “…a hidden sense of doubt will get all your minds and the specter of Isiah will disturb your sleep once again.”

  233. Caleb

    Not to be too much of a conspiracy theorist, because the bigfoot Dolan/Isiah story is totally believable, but at the same time…

    …if you were William Wesley and the folks at CAA, isn’t that exactly the kind of story you’d plant to try and make the Knicks look like a mess, steer Carmelo back to the swamp?

    Of course, we know Dolan pretty well – it’s pretty believable that he would see this as mano a mano with Prokhorov, get Melo at any cost just to stick it to the Russian who stuck a billboard in front of his building last summer.

    I haven’t read all the stories – is the reported offer specify a 1st-round pick from Minnesota (for Randolph), or could it be the 2014 pick?

    Keeping AR (and Fields) in the deal, would actually make it look decent. Yes, Melo would be highly overpaid but you actually could sign a 3rd bigtime player… and if Fields and Randolph were filling out your top 5, you could be pretty damn good in a couple of years.

  234. TDM

    IMO, if we are giving up our young core, I don’t want to take back Balkman for another 2 years after this season. I’d push to get Afflalo in the deal in place of those two. That way, we would get a starting SF, PG and a young, backup SG with some potential. At minimum, it would back off DEN in asking for Gallo (hopefully).

    I really love watching Gallo play and would hate to see him go, although I do understand that he wouldn’t be starting with Melo here. Three years ago, I purchased my son a Marbury jersey from MSJ – a month later he was eating vaseline on YouTube. Earlier this month, I bought my son a Gallo jersey, now this . . . I guess I should have bought him an Eddy Curry jersey years ago.

  235. Frank O.

    Owen: I hope the Knicks don’t get hosed as bad this weekend as ibaka just did.  

    Ibaka got jobbed.
    This was stacked for Griffin.

  236. Frank O.

    TDM: IMO, if we are giving up our young core, I don’t want to take back Balkman for another 2 years after this season.I’d push to get Afflalo in the deal in place of those two.That way, we would get a starting SF, PG and a young, backup SG with some potential.At minimum, it would back off DEN in asking for Gallo (hopefully).I really love watching Gallo play and would hate to see him go, although I do understand that he wouldn’t be starting with Melo here.Three years ago, I purchased my son a Marbury jersey from MSJ – a month later he was eating vaseline on YouTube.Earlier this month, I bought my son a Gallo jersey, now this . . . I guess I should have bought him an Eddy Curry jersey years ago.  

    Curry is your fault!
    :)

  237. BigBlueAL

    The latest 2 tweets from CBS Sports NBA account:

    “@KBerg_CBS reports tonight that Deron Williams has informed associates he looks to join Amar’e in New York in 2012.”

    “@KBerg_CBS reports tonight that James Dolan has undercut Donnie Walsh’s negotiations for Anthony. “It’s amateur hour” one source said.”

  238. BigBlueAL

    Now this:

    “@KBerg_CBS reports tonight that Dolan’s inclusion of Isiah Thomas in Melo talks could call into question Walsh’s commitment to Knicks”

  239. Owen

    If this were the lotr

    Isiah Thomas = grima wormtongue

    Although the comparison to James Dolan is really harsh on king theoden, even under the influence of saruman.

    Sorry, nerding out there….

    I cant believe isiah is about to get the Knicks to make the same kind of gigantic mistake that doomed us during his tenure. Just unbelievable.

    It’s tough being a Knicks fan.

  240. jon abbey

    Owen: It’s tough being a Knicks fan.  

    it’s tougher being a Nets fan.

    I love that Deron Williams story, now Amare and Melo and Deron need to talk to DeAndre Jordan about joining them. those four and Fields, let’s do it.

  241. Brian Cronin

    You AR fans are something.

    You used his early WS/48 to knock his future. I was merely pointing out that they’re not that bad in relation to other great players.

    Amazing after his body of work so far that people still call him a future All-Star, All-NBA 1st teamer and HOFer.

    I’ve never used any of those terms. However, it’s obvious that the guy can play. He just did it last year – at the age of 20 – for a coach who hated him! He puts up good rebounding and shot-blocking numbers, so the Knicks trade for him and then promptly put him on the perimeter, where he sucks and then bench him for not being good at a position he should never have been in to begin with. It is like playing Amar’e at the 2, then benching him because he isn’t any good at it.

    AR is a low-post player who has never gotten the opportunity as a Knick to play in the low post, even though Ronny Turiaf somehow does. AR is a better rebounder, shot-blocker and is probably about even as a low-post defender as Turiaf (Turiaf is a much better passer, though) and yet he has never gotten a chance to play the role Turiaf does. It would be like getting young Shawn Kemp and putting him on the perimeter (Kemp is probably the closest comparison to AR, and Kemp put up worse numbers than AR did in his age 20 season).

  242. Robert Silverman

    BigBlueAL: Forget Jordan, DWil-Fields-Melo-Amar’e-Dwight Howard.Let’s do it.  

    And we can build an android robo-baller who’s got Bird’s shot, Russell’s defense, Magic’s court vision and MJ’s competitive desire. ‘Bout as likely as the above scenario

  243. jon abbey

    I said it last year with LeBron, it really shouldn’t be that hard to get advertisers/other companies/whoever to kick in enough outside money to go around the salary cap to finally get a title team in the Garden. can’t Bloomberg put Howard and Williams on staff at his company for $10M each as consultants? :)

  244. latke

    Re: why ‘Melo has waited until now to claim he won’t extend with Nets

    I think the primary reason up until this point is that he didn’t really know what he wanted. I think what has kept him in that place of “i’m not sure” is a combination of just enjoying the attention (he’s been 2nd fiddle to LBJ his entire career — he’s probably enjoying being the center of the media storm, even if he won’t admit it), and because he kind of wants the extra cash.

    I think it’s also entirely possible that the players got some compromises from the owners regarding the new CBA, and ‘Melo feels a bit more confident that if he opts out, he’ll still get something within the same stratosphere as he would signing an extension.

    Finally, you have to figure that he doesn’t want to be the goat of the deal. He wants the press to come out after the trade talking about how good the Knicks can be, not about how he may have ruined their opportunity to win a championship.

    Jon Abbey probably made the most important comment in this thread though — that it’s an absolute wild card as far as any of us know whether bringing ‘Melo here will increase our odds at getting one of 2012′s big three. There’s the wedding toast argument, in which Paul demands to be traded to NY, and then there’s the “we won’t have the tradable assets/cap space” argument.

  245. totti

    bobneptune,

    thank you!

    you said my line was the best of the week

    PS i’m convincing myself that denver will be a better opportunity to fully develop for gallo, but i’ll miss the knicks anyway, him too…

  246. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I made the most important comment months ago when I said that Carmelo Anthony was not worth trading for, or signing, or accepting as a mid-level exception.

    Don’t be fucking stupid. The dude has proven nothing but that he can knock out open jumpers, and he’s commanding two starters and four #1 draft picks from one team and three starters and a bunch of other assets from another. We’re all being hosed. Well, except me. When this team struggles toward 45 wins next seasons, you can all remember who called this shit from the very beginning, and realize that you’ve been had by the mainstream media who will accept what ESPN reports (that Carmelo is good because his college team was good) as being gospel, and then marginally disagree with it but not enough to make any reasonable improvement.

    Get real. If Carmelo hadn’t won that NCAA title, who’d be claiming that he’s worth what these idiots in professional capacities claim he’s worth?

    It’s a big fucking joke, and you’ve all been had. Except Ted Nelson and Thomas B., who obviously know what’s going on.

  247. Robert Silverman

    “You been had. You been took. You been bamboozled!”

    Yes, I feel comfortable quoting Malcolm X. This is serious shizznit

  248. bobneptune

    totti: bobneptune,thank you!you said my line was the best of the weekPS i’m convincing myself that denver will be a better opportunity to fully develop for gallo, but i’ll miss the knicks anyway, him too…  

    the specter of isaiah is disturbing my sleep as we speak, much as the specter of giorgio chinaglia and lazio disturbs the dreams of roma fans :-)

  249. bobneptune

    can we please get papa chuck dolan to take the keys of msg away from junior just for 5 more days???

  250. totti

    Can someone answer please:
    Can a team renew to his rookies to a bigger amount even if it is over the cap? And if it is under the cap and the renewal exceed the cap?
    Because if it is possible, then the choice of giving away 3 rookies to be almost capped out at 52/54 mil with stat melo and billups appears a gigantic bad move.

    I’m sad. I begun to love this team

  251. totti

    ah ah ah bobneptune, compliments for your knowledge of 70′s italian football!

    my nickname is because i love totti as a player, more he is a good person. But i’m a fond supporter of Milan and i deeply hate inter and juventus, like you hate boston and chicago.

    I hate the cap system that prevent great teams from great cities to carry the legend of sport year after year, to give the hope of being relevant. Nba actually is a sort of risiko where every gm depends from dices. All these great players cast away in utah or new orleans. What a waste

  252. jon abbey

    my dad and I had season tickets as a kid to see Chinaglia and the Cosmos, those were the days.

    THCJ, you’re overreacting. if one of the big three signs with NY in the summer of 2012, it will be in large part because both Amare and Melo are here already. the deal can’t be solely judged on what Melo will or will not bring to NY on the court, that’s just not how things work now in the NBA.

  253. Brian Cronin

    Almost certainly something along the lines of 80% of that Wojo article is likely BS, but that remaining 20% is still scary enough to be really, really depressing.

    Also, not for nothing, but if you’re a supporter of “doing whatever it takes” to get Melo, doesn’t it at least give you pause that Donnie Walsh is against your idea and Isiah Thomas is a big proponent of it?

  254. totti

    brian,
    you did not sleep much, neither did i

    i don’t think DW is particularly good as a GM, he only takes one good decision out of two.
    But this. This can’t be his. DW would have gotten melo for much less or for nothing in FA.
    This is an atomic bomb on a resurging franchise.
    All knicks promising youthness swept away for a target that could easily be obtained in june for nothing.

    Ladies and gentlemen,
    the knicks are capped out again
    and Isiah is at the door

  255. marxster

    Someone ought to … Isiah once and for all. I can’t believe he keeps coming back into the picture. What’s this guys’ problem.

    If I’m Walsh, I’m walking.

  256. Brian Cronin

    Well, again, I’d say a good deal of the information is supposition from writers who want to sensationalize this, so I dunno if things are really as bad as they seem. But if they are, and I’m Walsh, I think I make Dolan publicly turn down my option. Why give Dolan the out by quitting? Force him to explain why he isn’t picking up my option, when I’ve done a decent job so far.

  257. KnickFanInCelticLand

    If these Isiah rumors are true, he is like Jason in the Friday the 13th movies. We get rid of him and become happy campers, only have him come back in the next sequel to find new ways to kill us.

  258. StevenU

    I still can’t believe that a majority ere-and in local and national media-seem to be in favor of giving away half the team for Melo and aging Chauncey.
    Re: Felton vs. Billups
    Yesterday, as so many were saying what a huge upgrade Chauncey is, I suggested that at age 26, Felton still has upside and is improving and that Billups had bounced around and been considered a bust. Clearly I’d picked the wrong year to look at and should have simply suggested comparing the players first 4-5 seasons. Felton played for one team, and improved right up until his first free agency and has continued to improve as a floor leader and most importantly as a playmaker. Billups is the superior 3pt shooter-and that’s IT-inside the arc he is not despite what people seem to think.
    http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2753/raymond-felton
    http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/63/chauncey-billups
    A couple of things jump out: In his 6th season Billups-playing for his 4th team put up: 12.5ppg/5.5apg(his highest to that point and over his career average)/2.7rpg/0.8spg and his best shooting year to that point-.423.
    Felton in his 6th season-for his 2nd team:17.1 ppg/9.0apg/3.6rpg/1.5spg/ .423 shooting%
    It is notable that Feltons assist numbers far exceed Billups and his shooting % is the same, and his rebounds and steals are also better.
    He is younger, faster and still improving. This idea that Billups is an upgrade, or a wash is silly and specious. If that were true, why would Denver insist on Felton???
    Billups value is wildly inflated because of being on an amazing well balanced team in Detroit. His leadership and toughness are unquestioned but Felton also excels in these areas-and is ahead of where Chauncey was at the same point in his career.

  259. StevenU

    AND, the ages of the Knick players in the various supposed proposals suggest that they are all still developing. Gallo (22), Chandler (23), AR (21), Mosgov (24), and Fields (22).
    Why on earth anyone thinks giving up all or most of a solid YOUNG improving core for one guy that isn’t LeBron/Jordan/Shaq/Kareem is going to make this team a championship contender is truly beyond me. It seems like most of these projections are based on acquiring other superstars in the future that somehow push us over the top.
    Well, we just tanked two seasons to lure LeBum and that worked out great. How is it that people think Melo is anything more than a great scorer-period? Let’s not go crazy about his 7 boards a game, it’s the same # as our rookie SG. When he just busted for 50 the Nugs lost-as they have 7 or 11 while he continues to do what he does-shoot a lot and score a lot. This does NOT translate into more wins and that Denver team better than the Knicks.
    As though CP3 or DWill would only come if Melo is here??? HUH?
    Keeping all our young assets, allowing them the experience of a full season and at least a round of playoff experience, and going after a Marc Gasol or a DeAndre Jordan in the off season-along with some sort of decent playmaker for a back up PG makes so much more sense it is not even funny-at all.
    If Melo wants to come here he can come as a FA and come to a much better team than the one about to supposedly be gutted to acquire him.
    And to echo Brian-a lonely voice of reason on here-it is quite telling that this seems to be a Dolan/Isiah thing going over Walsh’s head.
    UN F ing Believable

  260. TDM

    I’m a big fan of Felton. The guy has been great for us, and if Toney had enough game to run the point, Felton’s numbers would likely look even better.

    Billups is, undeniably, a great player. However, have any of you given thought to how the high number of minutes will affect his health? Felton has already played 400 more minutes than Billups this season, and is 8 years younger. That’s over 12 more games for Billups.

    The problem for the Knicks all season is that they have had very little depth at the 1 and the 5. Exchanging our young core for Anthony and Billups does nothing to cure these glaring holes.

  261. StevenU

    @TDM-exactly!
    I am not knocking Chauncey-great player-great 3pt shooter-never been an amazing distributor, and clearly lost 2 steps on his once strong D.
    Not knocking Melo either-he is a top ten player in the league or very close to it…still he does not in any way address this team’s needs, which you just clearly identified: the 5 and depth at the 1 (I’d add interior defense in general and a knock down 3pt shooter off the bench). He is also a poor 3pt shooter which is a gigantic part of SSOL.
    I posted earlier about the Knicks-and Amare’s shooting % with and without Gallo on the floor. The differential is huge, and it has to do with spacing since we know Gallo is not some sort of amazing play maker. The mere threat of him at the 3pt line creates space inside for Amare and for all pick and roll plays. Melo at 31% doesn’t scare anyone out there except maybe his own coach.

  262. flossy

    @296 With all due respect… This is the last place in the world I would come to make an argument hinging on simple per-game statistics and plain old unweighted FG%.

  263. TDM

    Apparently some in the Knicks org get it:

    “Even if the Knicks didn’t get Anthony at all, sources say there are those within the organization who believe the team would be better off filling more obvious needs — a defensive-minded center and backup point guard — while preserving cap space for a run at one of those free agents, or even center Tyson Chandler, who will be unrestricted this summer”

    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/14712636/nets-reportedly-back-in-on-melo-after-dolan-jumps-in

  264. jon abbey

    the Knicks have so many GM types right now (not even counting Isiah) that I’m sure you could find “those within the organization” who believe just about anything.

  265. erobes

    @296

    We’ve had this argument before, but you’re missing the point on billups. His TS% is a full ten points higher than Felton. This is because he is not only a vastly superior shooter, but he gets to the line much more frequently and rarely misses. Billups has been and remains a ridiculously efficient offensive player. Felton is a pg running SSOL but he cant shoot. This cripples the offense. He’s a better playmaker for sure. But what we lose in playmaking we make up for in actually punishing teams for going under the screen, which Felton is miserable at. This is why i think they’re a wash, as both are likely gone in after next year anyway, so the age difference is largely irrelevant.

  266. Frank O.

    It is quite clear to me that the media has become way, way to much a part of the story.
    Reporters are being used to impact negotiations. Phantom stories are being written, many of which contradictory. Clearly there is an interest in twisting this alleged axis of dysfunction of Dolan, Walsh and Isiah. People all are serving their own interests in leaking stories.
    Denver needs to keep hope alive because they’re running out of time and options. The Knicks have interest in countering what Denver is doing. Agents have interests in creating friction to secure more money for their clients, or interests related to other clients of theirs, but unrelated to the current negotiations, to create wealth for themselves.
    You have reporters who are trying to stir up a story, or find a piece of this story, who are willing to be manipulated. It happens all the time. Ill-informed reporters being leveraged because they are ignorant is the greatest danger to my industry.
    In this case, every reporter out there seems to get used in some way. And no one holds any reporters responsible for being wrong. Indeed, it’s almost impossible to prove someone is wrong because people can claim the story was developing and changing.
    It’s a real conundrum.
    But some of these stories are single-sourced. People are thinking because this person is who he/she is, it must be accurate. Problem is all of these people have interests, meaning they are compromised. It raises the bar for sourcing. You need to have multiple sources for these stories, or else you are likely to get manipulated.
    And then again, there is a thin line between opinion and reporting.
    We have reporters opining all the time in sports stories. There’s no governing ethic.
    So I offer a suggestion: take everything with a grain of salt. If it sounds outrageous, it likely is. I believe if Walsh felt undercut, he’d quite. He doesn’t need this crap. If Dolan is involved it’s because he has millions involved. And if it involves…

  267. StevenU

    @flossy-totally valid point-my point is just that even the people who say Billups is such a big upgrade point to his shooting as his one and only huge advantage-and it just is not that huge-especially when weighted against all the other numbers: apg/rpg/spg-as well as the 8 year age differential. In reality Billups is more of a combo guard- a very good one, and a champion-but never been a great play maker and the primary job of a PG is ball distribution and defending the opposing PG-Felton is clearly superior in both of these areas-Disagree?
    @erobes-Chauncey is a better shooter-you’re right. I don’t think I am missing that point I just don’t agree it’s THE point And since I’ve been accused of being hyperbolic (by you yesterday if I am not mistaken) saying Felton “cripples the offense” is pretty silly given that the Knick offense is, by all measures, doing pretty well.
    Rather than debate who is the better shooter-since I agree with you and it’s inarguable, maybe you could just tell me why assists, steals, rebounds, young legs, and defense are irrelevant. Especially when your team is weak in all those areas and not bad at shooting and scoring. ?
    And this pure speculation about who they might or might not get in the future is incredibly specious: No one knows where DWill and CP3 are going to play after next season (when Felton will be 28-viable as a starter or a trade piece- and Chauncey will be 36).
    And I for one think that ignoring this year and next year in hopes of whatever might happen in two years is disturbing and eerily familiar.
    This potential trade hurts the D, hurts the depth, hurts the present and in now way insures a superior future. Sometimes the best deals are the ones you don’t make and this is clearly one of them.
    You-and the others who are all aflutter over Melo and Billups- have no interest in seeing how all these young guys develop over the next year or two???
    No disrespect intended at all but I just find that crazy

  268. latke

    Look over to the charts in p.2 article — Chauncey’s ability to hit the three will open up the middle for Amare in a big way. Billups won’t get those seemingly out of control fast break drives to the rim, but I’ll take that compromise if Amare’s shooting efficiency gets back close to what it was last year. It is also a good point that Billups will not be able to play 38 MPG though.

  269. jaylamerique

    BigBlueAL:
    You AR fans are something.Amazing after his body of work so far that people still call him a future All-Star, All-NBA 1st teamer and HOFer.Its one thing to say he could help the team with his rebounding and shot-blocking because he certainly could.But Jesus Christ these other terms used to describe him is unbelievable (not contributing all these terms to one person, I have actually read him being called the above 3 in different posts by different people throughout the season).  

    AR is often compared to Odom, Camby and Josh Smith as how we expect his career to turn out. None of those players have ever made an all star team, have been first team anything or are ever making the hall of fame. You AR fans are crazy with the hype.

  270. Frank

    I seriously think that Twitter is the worst thing that has happened to actual journalism in, well, forever. It is way too easy for people to manipulate the scoop-starved media and get them to say whatever. Not to mention that just about all the Knicks beat writers have a vendetta against Dolan because of how badly they were treated by him under Isiah. Not to mention that didn’t Wojnarowski cover the Nets for the Bergen Record before he went to Yahoo? There is a ridiculous web of agendas and misinformation out there.

    That being said, where there is smoke there is usually fire. Please just let Donnie do what he was brought here to do. Isiah is a freaking joke and a malignant growth on this organization. I really wish David Stern could just ban him from basketball. For what I’m not sure – is idiocy and destroying one of the great franchises in league history good enough?

  271. StevenU

    latke:
    the difference between Billups vs Felton on 3pt shooting is almost exactly the same as the difference between Gallo and Melo. Career 3pt % below:
    Gallo .377
    Melo .311
    Felton .328
    Billups .391
    It’s a net wash as far as 3pt shooting, only we pay a lot more, get older players, lose defense and play making, and lose whatever chemistry this team has started to build

  272. latke

    Yeah, but it’s far more important to have a PG who can make a three than a wing. If the defense isn’t afraid of the PGs three, they just go under every screen, and Amare’s man never has to leave him. The entire offense comes to a screeching halt. That’s when you see Amare doing his dreaded post-ups.

    The wings don’t have to be all be good at making threes as long as they can compensate with quickness to the rim. Marion was a bad three point shooter, but he compensated with speed.

  273. Frank

    In reality Billups is more of a combo guard- a very good one, and a champion-but never been a great play maker and the primary job of a PG is ball distribution and defending the opposing PG-Felton is clearly superior in both of these areas-Disagree?

    Actually I think the job of the PG on offense is to run the offense, not turn the ball over, and play good/appropriate defense. If running the offense is best done by him being the final distributor, then he’ll have a lot of assists. If it is not a drive/dish or PnR offense, then he’ll have fewer assists. Considering the Nuggets have the #1 offensive efficiency in the league, I would say he must be doing a reasonable job. Billups is great at not turning the ball over, so he’s good at that too. Re: defense – his on-ball defense may not be as good, but how often have we seen our defense collapse because Felton gets posted up etc.? Billups is much bigger, and our Douglas + other PG lineup would not be as vulnerable to post-ups.

    You-and the others who are all aflutter over Melo and Billups- have no interest in seeing how all these young guys develop over the next year or two???

    I agree with you to some extent – I’ve grown attached to these guys already (especially Gallo) and think they have a lot of potential. But just as some trades are better off NOT made, some trades ARE better off made. One of the most famous non-trades that may have changed the course of the league forever is Cleveland refusing to trade JJ Hickson to PHX to get Amare. Amare + Lebron likely would have won a championship with Varejao/Shaq inside and good outside shooting. I think our guys are better than Hickson – but there’s a reason some players are “prospects” and others are superstars.

    Again – not saying I like the trade as it is – but I can see why some people want to make it.

  274. BG

    swapping billups and felton could be tough in the sense that chauncey may not be inspired to play in the garden. He has lost a step and is not the playmaker or defender that felton has been however his ability to hit open shots is a must for our offense. He will be the only consistent knock down shooter in the starting lineup. If he is motivated i think he could be a welcome addition but he cant play 40 minutes a night as felton did. For these reasons i think the knicks should take a hard look at getting a backup who can play extended minutes some nights. Maybe a guy like sessions or earl watson would be available.

  275. flossy

    StevenU: @flossy-totally valid point-my point is just that even the people who say Billups is such a big upgrade point to his shooting as his one and only huge advantage-andit just is not that huge-especially when weighted against all the other numbers: apg/rpg/spg-as well as the 8 year age differential. In reality Billups is more of a combo guard- a very good one, and a champion-but never been a great play maker and the primary job of a PG is ball distribution and defending the opposing PG-Felton is clearly superior in both of these areas-Disagree?

    It’s not that I disagree per se, but Billups really is is a WAY more efficient scorer and just flat out much better shooter than Felton. I will concede that he’s not quite as good a playmaker (though the gap in their career AST% – career high twenties for Billups vs. low 30s for Felton is not that huge).

    I’d argue that a dangerous outside shot is a huge park of an effective pick and roll attack and Billups would bring that. Moreover, on a team with Carmelo and Amar’e I don’t think we’d even want the ball in our PGs hands all that much. Why build around those two stars if not to institute an unstoppable two-man game between the two of them? The role of the PG in an Amar’e/Melo offense would be to hit open 3s, not turn the ball over, make smart decisions. That is basically Chauncey Billups in a nutshell.

    Moreover, his intangibles cannot be ignored–there is a reason Billups has a ring, has been a Finals MVP and was an integral part of last summer’s world championship team. On the other hand, Felton’s *entire* career playoff experience to date consists of getting smoked by Jameer Nelson in a first round sweep.

    The only downsidea to Billups would be a slight drop-off in man defense, the problem of minutes management and the fact that we would really, really need a legit back-up PG.

  276. Frank O.

    StevenU: latke:
    the difference between Billups vs Felton on 3pt shooting is almost exactly the same as the difference between Gallo and Melo. Career 3pt % below:
    Gallo .377
    Melo .311
    Felton .328
    Billups .391
    It’s a net wash as far as 3pt shooting, only we pay a lot more, get older players, lose defense and play making, and lose whatever chemistry this team has started to build  

    This approach is over simplified and misleading, which I’m sure is not intentional.
    This year’s stats are statistically significant enough to provide a better gauge.
    Gallo’s 3 pt shooting this year is way off his career. He’s hitting not quite 34 percent (5.1 shots per game) and Billups is at 44 percent (5.2 per 36 mins). That is an enormous difference.
    Meanwhile Felton’s hitting less that 33 percent from 3pt.
    Melo is also hitting 33 percent this year, but he takes half as many as Felton at 2.7 per 36.
    Again, an enormous difference.

    This trade makes the Knicks a much better, more efficient 3 point shooting team, which is enormously important in the D’Antoni scheme.

  277. johnno

    Stop getting hung up on all of the rumors that are flying around since the vast majority of them are probably false — including stuff that is coming directly from the mouths of the people involved. (‘Melo and Prokhorov both said they wouldn’t be meeting and then met several hours later?!?) Let’s all wait to see how it ends!
    Assuming that the Knicks have in fact offered Felton, Gallo and Chandler for ‘Melo and Billups and that that is the deal that actually gets done, here’s my take –
    – There are maybe 75 guys in the NBA who could score 20 a night if they were allowed to take enough shots (Gallo, Chandler and Felton all fall into this group). There are maybe 10 who can score 20+ per night despite being double-teamed most of the time. The Knicks will be one of only a few teams in the league with two such guys — both of whom will be in their primes for several more years.
    – Their starting lineup will stll be one of the youngest of all of the good teams in the league 22, 24, 26, 28 and 34 — and will include 2 rookies.
    – Assuming that Mozgov and Turiaf can hold down the fort at center (which is a pretty good probability since they won’t be asked to do much besides rebound, clog up the middle on defense and score a few baskets around the rim per game), that team can make some real noise in the playoffs THIS YEAR.
    – Everyone assumes that the Knicks could sign ‘Melo as a FA. Maybe. But then again maybe not. If the choice is to accept the Nets’ offer or risk losing $20 million or more if the CBA changes, he just might blink and take the deal.
    I’ve really enjoyed this season so far and I love Gallo, Felton and Chandler (and my 7 year old son cried when I told him that Felton might be traded), but you have to give up something to get an all-star. Is ‘Melo as good as LeBron? Of course not. He’s not as good as Wade, Kobe or Durant either. But last I checked, those guys aren’t available.

  278. bobneptune

    one can only hope if this trade comes down the dolan way 2 things happen:

    walsh refuses to sign on and quits on the spot calling a presser and rips dolan a new one and,

    gallo refuses to go to denver, hops on a plane with the 9 million he’s made the last 3 years to milano and plays chicken with nix/denver. he can sit out the remaining 2 yrs on his contract and become the pope of milano and sign with benetton and live very happily ever after. i cannot imagine gallo would be happy in denver after being the big wheel in milano and nyc all his adult life.

    and the thing i’m most looking forward to with the second coming of isaiah wiil be jettisoning guys you can actually root for like fields, chandler, gallo, mozgov and felton and replacing them with high character isaiah guys like curry, starbury, jerome james and z-bo .

    like totti says…. the specter of isaiah will soon be haunting your dreams again…..

  279. Z-man

    jaylamerique:
    ARis often compared to Odom, Camby and Josh Smith as how we expect his career to turn out. None of those players have ever made an all star team, have been first team anything or are ever making the hall of fame. You AR fans are crazy with the hype.  

    I remember those guys early on and they definitely had their issues. That said, I have rarely seen a player in his third year in the league (at any age) with as low of a b-ball IQ as Randolph. Keep in mind that there are two pretty below average players in the rotation ahead of him, and that guys in D’Antoni’s doghouse have worked their way out (Nate and Mozgov, to name 2) and I have to assume that Randolph is just not showing enough in practice to merit another look. The hype about him had me fooled and I was a huge proponent of keeping him last summer until we saw him for ourselves. He may develop down the road, but I was bitterly disappointed at what I saw from him.

    One clear flaw in his game is that he has absolutely no right hand. Maybe he remedies that over time, but for now it is a huge liability. It is compounded by his very poor outside shot, so on offense, defenders can just lay off him and overplay his left when he drives. That is compounded by his lack of recognition of what the situation calls for, especially on offense. He commits dumb turnovers and dumb offensive and defensive fouls, hangs outside when he should be down on the block, reaches when he should box out, So, he can pile up some rebounding and shotblocking stats, but usually at some cost to the team’s cohesiveness. His best stretch of ball was the spring of his rookie season, but the Warriors were done by then so its hard to translate those stats into a playoff race where every game counts.

    He reminds me of Renaldo Balkman a lot. Loads of athletic talent,some skills, but zero b-ball IQ.

  280. Robert Silverman

    Reading that Woj piece was like getting whacked with a ball peen hammer.

    I’ll walk. Seriously, if Isiah Thomas is back, I’ll give this team up. I’ll root for the GS Warriors and watch Steph Curry and David Lee.

  281. bobneptune

    Z-man:
    I remember those guys early on and they definitely had their issues.That said, I have rarely seen a player in his third year in the league (at any age) with as low of a b-ball IQ as Randolph.Keep in mind that there are two pretty below average players in the rotation ahead of him, and that guys in D’Antoni’s doghouse have worked their way out (Nate and Mozgov, to name 2) and I have to assume that Randolph is just not showing enough in practice to merit another look.The hype about him had me fooled and I was a huge proponent of keeping him last summer until we saw him for ourselves.He may develop down the road, but I was bitterly disappointed at what I saw from him.One clear flaw in his game is that he has absolutely no right hand.Maybe he remedies that over time, but for now it is a huge liability.It is compounded by his very poor outside shot, so on offense, defenders can just lay off him and overplay his left when he drives.That is compounded by his lack of recognition of what the situation calls for, especially on offense.He commits dumb turnovers and dumb offensive and defensive fouls, hangs outside when he should be down on the block, reaches when he should box out, So, he can pile up some rebounding and shotblocking stats, but usually at some cost to the team’s cohesiveness.His best stretch of ball was the spring of his rookie season, but the Warriors were done by then so its hard to translate those stats into a playoff race where every game counts.He reminds me of Renaldo Balkman a lot.Loads of athletic talent,some skills, but zero b-ball IQ.  

    AR is a wing player with zero offensive game and zero range. unless you have the strength and endless motor of a rodman, you can’t play in the nba that way.

    unless he develops a work ethic like landry fields and learns a 15 foot jumper he has almost no value. it is up to him, not…

  282. John Kenney

    If all that’s been reported today is true… ugh… I can’t say I’d quit following the team, because we’d still have Amar’e and I want him to succeed. But….. it’d be the beginning of the end, capped off by whatever failure of a FA in 2012 we’d have with isiah running everything.

    ugh. I hate everything.

  283. johnno

    Z-Man is right — Randolph has shown zero in the way of basketball IQ. And for all of you who are arguing that D’Antoni is not using him properly because he should be leaving him down low where he can focus on his strengths — rebounding and blocking shots — I remember hearing Randolph interviewed when the Knicks first acquired him and he said that his biggest problem with Nellie was that he wanted him to focus on shot blocking and rebounding. So he doesn’t want to do what he is good at. Real smart. A very good argument can be made that not playing him was a stroke of brilliance by D’Antoni since it has preserved his trade value — teams are still apparently seduced enough by his raw athleticism to offer a first round pick for him. Had he been getting regular playing time, teams might have started realizing that he is great athlete but a bad basketball player. (Although, admittedly, it takes a lot to prove to David Kahn that you can’t play. He watched Darko for half a season and still came away claiming that Darko was going to have as good a career as Chris Webber.) He is still very young and might someday become a very good player, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

  284. Robert Silverman

    All this Isiah stuff has me profoundly depressed. Seriously, if anyone has any words of wisdom to lift me out of this funk, I’m ready to hear ‘em

  285. latke

    Robert Silverman: All this Isiah stuff has me profoundly depressed. Seriously, if anyone has any words of wisdom to lift me out of this funk, I’m ready to hear ‘em  

    This tweet from Howard Beck might make you feel a bit better:

    Knicks trying to calm the storm around Carmelo talks, with joint statement from Dolan, Walsh and D’Antoni asserting they are on same page

  286. latke

    HowardBeckNYT HowardBeckNYT
    Knicks statement: “We want to make it abundantly clear that we have been in constant communication throughout this process and the three of us are in complete agreement with everything that we are currently working on. Together, we will do what is best for the long-term success of the franchise. we want to make it clear that no one from outside our organization has been involved in this process in any way.”

  287. Robert Silverman

    The fact that they’d issue a statement like that is seriously bizarre. Clearly trying to dispel the rumors. I wish I could be comforted. Just the mention of Zeke’s name is enough to send the whole fan base into a collective seizure

  288. bobneptune

    latke: HowardBeckNYT HowardBeckNYT
    Knicks statement: “We want to make it abundantly clear that we have been in constant communication throughout this process and the three of us are in complete agreement with everything that we are currently working on. Together, we will do what is best for the long-term success of the franchise. we want to make it clear that no one from outside our organization has been involved in this process in any way.”  

    i believe in the easter bunny and unicorns, too…..

  289. latke

    Robert Silverman: The fact that they’d issue a statement like that is seriously bizarre. Clearly trying to dispel the rumors. I wish I could be comforted. Just the mention of Zeke’s name is enough to send the whole fan base into a collective seizure  

    At least it shows that they recognize how opposed people are to the notion of Isiah being involved. Whether or not Dolan cares is another issue.

  290. Z

    Robert Silverman: The fact that they’d issue a statement like that is seriously bizarre. Clearly trying to dispel the rumors. I wish I could be comforted. Just the mention of Zeke’s name is enough to send the whole fan base into a collective seizure  

    Remember Lenny Wilkins’ “resignation” speech in 2005? How he looked beaten and confused as he shakily read a prepared statement saying that Isiah had asked him to remain as coach but that he wanted to spend time with his family instead.

    Yup.

  291. Brian Cronin

    Z-Man is right — Randolph has shown zero in the way of basketball IQ. And for all of you who are arguing that D’Antoni is not using him properly because he should be leaving him down low where he can focus on his strengths — rebounding and blocking shots — I remember hearing Randolph interviewed when the Knicks first acquired him and he said that his biggest problem with Nellie was that he wanted him to focus on shot blocking and rebounding. So he doesn’t want to do what he is good at. Real smart. A very good argument can be made that not playing him was a stroke of brilliance by D’Antoni since it has preserved his trade value — teams are still apparently seduced enough by his raw athleticism to offer a first round pick for him. Had he been getting regular playing time, teams might have started realizing that he is great athlete but a bad basketball player. (Although, admittedly, it takes a lot to prove to David Kahn that you can’t play. He watched Darko for half a season and still came away claiming that Darko was going to have as good a career as Chris Webber.) He is still very young and might someday become a very good player, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

    Almost certainly AR is a moron who has low basketball IQ.

    He also was a good player last year at 20 years old while playing a position he didn’t like and playing with low basketball IQ.

    So the Knicks then decided to let the guy with the low basketball IQ determine what position he should play? That’s dumb.

    Then they see him suck at the position he wants to play that he can’t play and they, of course, make him play the position he is good at but doesn’t want to play. Oh wait, no, they bench him. That’s dumb.

    I mean, hell, does anyone here think Shawn Kemp was a genius with great basketball IQ?

  292. NateRobinson

    Z-Man

    You just mentioned Balkman and skill in the same sentence. I believe it’s a typo because if I recall correctly, Renaldo could not shoot mid-range, dribble or pass. He did two things very well, hustle and rebound.

    If AR is sulking I would not be a proponent of him getting PT. But the fact that Herb Williams was quoted as saying that AR has handled it with class and is working hard shows me that it simply comes down to MDA’s love for outside shooting. Granted this was early in the season and much has not been heard afterwards…

    Please can people on this board quit it with the Isiah talk, it is depressing and it I for one do not need more drama. I fear the day he…sigh

  293. New Guy

    Robert Silverman: All this Isiah stuff has me profoundly depressed. Seriously, if anyone has any words of wisdom to lift me out of this funk, I’m ready to hear ‘em  

    I’ll offer up one thing:

    Melo supposedly met extensively w Dolanto discuss the future of the knicks. And if isiah is really as prominently involved as reports indicate I’d think he’d want to run the other way, no?

  294. bobneptune

    Brian Cronin:
    ….Then they see him suck at the position he wants to play that he can’t play and they, of course, make him play the position he is good at. No, they bench him. That’s dumb.I mean, hell, does anyone here think Shawn Kemp was a genius with great basketball IQ?   

    please never to be using AR and shawn kemp in the same sentence ever again.

    ever!

  295. NateRobinson

    With so much IQ rankings I came up with this:
    (Highest to lowest IQ)
    1. Fields: The fact the hes a rookie says alot about him and the Knicks
    2. Turiaf: Smart defender and passer. Covers often for STATs mistakes
    3. Chandler: Rarely out of control, smart defender/rebounder
    4. Gallo: Great awareness, rarely out of position
    5. Douglas: all on D little on O
    6. Williams: Capable defender, gritty
    7. Felton: so many horrible long 2s
    8. STAT: Misses rotations, struggles defending the PnR surprisingly considering his athleticism.
    9. Bill Walker: Here by default
    10. Andy Rautins
    11. Anthony Randolph
    12. Timofey Mozgov
    13. Bag of Chips
    14. Eddy Curry

  296. jaylamerique

    Brian Cronin:
    Almost certainly AR is a moron who has low basketball IQ.
    He also was a good player last year at 20 years old while playing a position he didn’t like and playing with low basketball IQ.
    So the Knicks then decided to let the guy with the low basketball IQ determine what position he should play? That’s dumb.Then they see him suck at the position he wants to play that he can’t play and they, of course, make him play the position he is good at but doesn’t want to play. Oh wait, no, they bench him. That’s dumb.I mean, hell, does anyone here think Shawn Kemp was a genius with great basketball IQ?   

    What makes you think that even if the knicks tell him to get in the post that he wont drift back outside? For example, Josh Smith still thinks he can shoot 3′s even though everyone tells him he can’t. Sometime players are just that stupid.

  297. New Guy

    I don’t know. There are so many reports saying the same thing, I can’t tell if it’s just reporters being lazy or because it is true. I just can’t believe we’d mishandled this so badly and throw in Gallo or Fields while bidding against ourselves, or that we actually believe melo will go to the nets.

    I hope we pull out of this at the last minute and stick it to Denver. But yeah, that statement is scary. Walsh or MDA would never even acknowledge reports of isiah being involved. Thats a Dolan statement that he coerced his employees into signing.

  298. StevenU

    I am trying like crazy to let go of the whole Felton vs. Billups thing, BUT: Felton’s assist numbers were already way higher than Billups first 5 seasons in the league-and higher than Billups career numbers, even when he played the slow paced game in Charlotte for the coach most known for calling every single play and keeping his PGs on a short leash (Next Town Brown). So to say his assist numbers are inflated by SSOL is true but even without it he is the superior play maker. And for a guy who is supposedly such an amazing knock down incredible hall of fame shooter-Billups career shooting % is .418.
    It reminds me a lot of the recent piece about Kobes reputation as the games best finisher vs. the statistical reality that he is far from it. Yes, Chauncey is a really good player, but reading this forum you’d think he is a superstar and he is not and has never been. That Detroit team was an incredibly balanced ensemble cast that played perfectly to his strengths. He’s done a great job in Denver, too, and I really like him as a player. I am not trying to take anything away from him.
    Felton is simply entering his prime and a better fit on this team. With or without Melo they are not leapfrogging 5 other teams in the east this year or next, and I have not even read one person say they are.
    And not one person had an answer to the question: If Billups is so far superior why is Denver insisting on Felton?
    Any argument about them that does not consider their respective ages and salaries is missing a lot. 8 years younger and half the salary is part of why Felton is the better fit on this young and improving Knick team.

  299. Brian Cronin

    please never to be using AR and shawn kemp in the same sentence ever again.

    ever!

    They’re very similar players. Mike had a bit on it during the offseason. Joe Smith, too. Let’s say Joe Smith is the basement and Kemp is the ceiling. 3rd-year Smith would be a good player to have. And they’re all post players.

  300. Brian Cronin

    What makes you think that even if the knicks tell him to get in the post that he wont drift back outside? For example, Josh Smith still thinks he can shoot 3?s even though everyone tells him he can’t. Sometime players are just that stupid.

    Because he did it last year, for a coach who openly hated him. If we didn’t have last season, then sure, we wouldn’t have any idea of what AR could do, but we do have last season, so we do.

  301. KnickInSeattle

    Isola is almost always wrong, in my opinion, and I think he was the first to report Isaiah involvement. The rumored trade is seemingly nuts enough to be Isaiah related and that’s scary. Still, there’s plenty of precedent for every one of these reporters being wrong. Or flat out fabricating stories to generate hit counts…

    It’s the Felton for Billups that gets to me…perhaps it’s a good move as Billups will be imminently trade-able next year and he’s a great offensive piece. I’ve grown attached to Felton’s scrappiness, youth, and contract however.

  302. NateRobinson

    Jayla

    I think we are complicating things here. To me MDA looks at Mozgov and AR through different lenses. With Timo, he had a much longer leash. Playing him through nothing short of horrible stretches that made Curry look smart. With AR, 4 minutes of not hitting jumpers got him yanked because hes playing the wing.

  303. art vandelay

    My sense is that the billups-felton swap is being driven more for fiscal reasons than basketball ones on denver{s end. I believe they don{t want to pay him the 14 mill next year and risk paying luxury tax, but as he is a hometown star, perhaps best player produced from state of colorado, it would be a huge PR debacle to just let him go, as he has a huge following out there. This way they can claim they had to trade him due to melo fiasco.

  304. jaylamerique

    Brian Cronin:
    They’re very similar players. Mike had a bit on it during the offseason. Joe Smith, too. Let’s say Joe Smith is the basement and Kemp is the ceiling. 3rd-year Smith would be a good player to have. And they’re all post players.  

    He’s more of a Josh Smith then Joe Smith or Kemp. Kemp at age twenty already had a higher ts %. I don’t think he’ll ever be that good as a scorer. There different kinda of post players though. Kemp was more power while AR seems to wanna finesse his way to a basket.

  305. NateRobinson

    I’m pretty sure AR HAS to finesse his way to a basket. If MDA wants to use him properly (at the 4) Im confident he would do well.

    God I like this AR talk, it keeps me out of the crazy Melo drama.

  306. jaylamerique

    NateRobinson: I’m pretty sure AR HAS to finesse his way to a basket. If MDA wants to use him properly (at the 4) Im confident he would do well.God I like this AR talk, it keeps me out of the crazy Melo drama.  

    How is MDA not using him properly. AR has stated that he views himself as a 3-4 rather then strictly as a four. How is that necessarily MDA’s fault. You know what, I just want him to play already just so everyone here can see that he isn’t the greatest thing since slice bread. If he was so good, he’d be playing. it is as simple as that. Moz is playing, nate played last year. Being on the bench doesn’t mean you cant work your way back to the rotation

  307. New Guy

    The smartest move that hasn’t been made yet is to start engaging Utah in talks for Deron Williams trade NOW. Especially with the reports circulating today about him wanting to come here in 2012. If we can get enough buzz out there that we can get DWill with some of these assets Denver wants, we can finally get some real pressure on them.

    I may be in crazy denial, but I’m still holding out hope that we can get thus done without gallo, fields, or timo involved. We still should be able to do this, I hope.

  308. bobneptune

    StevenU:
    And not one person had an answer to the question: If Billups is so far superior why is Denver insisting on Felton?

    steven,

    the reason they need to include felton for billups is MOTO!

    denver is at 83m payroll, so they pay dollar for dollar luxury tax for every payroll dollar over70.3 million. since billups makes 13 million more than felton over the next 2 years and they are reasonably equivalent players, denver wants to save all that cash.

    the trade in its current form saves denver ~ 20 million in payroll this year. that is why the nix must also eat balkman and williams 2.5 million this year even though they aren’t necessary to make the money work.

    so… to answer your question why denver insists on the pg swap… it’s all about the benjamins.

    which is another reason for walsh to not include gallo in the deal. azu could go instead of gallo and the money would still work.

  309. Ben R

    A couple of things, first in regard to Felton vs Billups, shooting percentage does not matter, because it fails to account for 3′s and fts. That’s why you look at efg% and TS% both of which Billups is clearly better than Felton. I agree that Felton is a better playmaker but he is also more of a ball dominator, which would be bad with both Melo and Amare.

    As for AR, whether you see him as a future star or a complete bust he has more value than a late 1st round pick based solely on potential and ceiling. He has played good, but raw and inconsistant basketball in his short career and no one knows whether he will put it together and become good, or never put it together and continue to be a maddening frustration but he certainly is worth more than a threw in on a trade because of the possibility of him putting it together.

    I don’t want Melo, not any trade, not for more than 14 mil a year, but if we are going to give them Gallo and Chandler then let’s find a different way to get the 1st than trading AR, and if they want Felton we need to insist on Lawson since them wanting Felton seems to tell us how much they value Lawson in the first place. If we ended up with Melo, Lawson and Billups and all we had to give up was Chandler, Gallo, Curry, Felton plus a first rounder gotten with Williams, Douglas, or Walker instead of AR then I would be dissappointed but okay with the trade.

  310. StevenU

    jayla-Nate was benched for 14 games last year in the middle destroying his trade value-coming off a season where he averaged over 17 ppg-and when Damphony finally did him the honor of allowing him in a game he put up 41 points off the bench. The Dantoni promptly took credit for it as though the benching made him a better player.
    Mosgov admittedly looked awful for the first few games this year, but he had a multi year European professional resume that inspired the Knicks to sign him to a 3 year deal in the first place. And he only got back in the rotation due to injuries, rather than being allowed to play through his early angst and find his rhythm.
    A few short months ago AR was the centerpiece of a sign and trade for DLee. An incredibly athletic maulti talented 6′ 11″ 21 year old with a lot of raw potential who clearly didn’t-and to be fair-doesn’t-know how to play to his strengths. It is not his job to know what role best suits him. His self perception as a player is highly irrelevant. That’s the job of the coaching staff. You do not ask a player where they want to play, you TELL them what they need to do in order to play. And if they do not understand how to do so you teach them. He is 21 years old! And quite possibly a bit of a bonehead but there have been many very good players who were not Rhodes Scholars. They required coaching in order to reach their potential, and his ceiling is pretty high. Too high to become a throw in in a lousy trade a few months after he was a highly valued asset. Like Mosgov, there is no question about it: he played terribly when given a chance early on. Still, this team is not a contender-not by a long stretch, and there is really no excuse not to give him at least a little opportunity to learn and grow into a player. He has not been given much of a chance at all-and in his tiny bit of recent run he was much more under control than he had been.

  311. Frank O.

    StevenU:
    And not one person had an answer to the question: If Billups is so far superior why is Denver insisting on Felton?
    Any argument about them that does not consider their respective ages and salaries is missing a lot. 8 years younger and half the salary is part of why Felton is the .  

    Hey StevenU:
    Tenacity is excellent.
    As for your answer, here’s what I believe:
    I believe the Knicks saw Felton as a good player, but a flawed player, who would serve adequately as a placeholder for two years until the game’s best two PGs were available as free agents in 2012.
    I think the knicks believed they would be better this year, but I don’t think they believed they would be as improved as they have been. I also think Felton has played better than anticipated under this system.
    But I also believe that they see Billups as a better rental until 2012 than Felton. Amare and Billups running a pick and role with Carmelo on the wing is a far more formidable threat for most teams than Amare and Felton with Gallo on the wing.
    Yes, Billups age and money is more than Felton’s. But that isn’t a concern for a season and a half. There is no way the Knicks were going to hold onto Felton if they could get either Paul or Williams. No way.
    So, the knicks get a more polished scoring guard to complement Amare for a season and a half, and a more dangerous scorer on the wing.
    Denver likes Felton because they are trying to get some cap relief and youth, and an opportunity to make another move with that cap space.
    It makes sense for both teams. The Knicks want to make a push for this season, and they want to be a player in 2012. This trade achieves that, IMHO.
    I’m still bummed about Gallo. But you have to give to get.

  312. tastycakes

    This is the kind of horseshit that hack Wojnarowski likes to drop:

    On Twitter last summer: “One prominent agent says tonight: “I think there’s a very good chance the Knicks will get shutout (in free agency)…Even likely…”"

    On Mike D last year, in an article entitled “Bulls boxed in by cheap coaching hire”: “Before his players, sources say, D’Antoni had started down the don’t-you-know-who-I-am route and recited his résumé of 60-victory seasons and scoring records and revolutionary basketball…The Knicks are a mess, and league friends of D’Antoni believe he has deep regret for passing on Chicago for New York. He let his ego and agent push him out of Phoenix, and let his desire for money over winning pass on Chicago.”

    On the coaching change 3 years ago: “Mark Jackson has emerged as the new Knick boss’s choice to replace Thomas as coach”

    Recent column title: “Knicks owner leaves Walsh in limbo.”

    Today:

    “The thin veil of secrecy has torn away now, the pretenses gone and Isiah Thomas has left the shadows and moved into the light again. Once more, he is the New York Knicks’ top basketball executive.”

    OK, this is just a kind of random sampling of his output, found in 15 minutes of Googling, but you have got to be crazy to listen to this piece of trash.

    Woj is the worst kind of rabblerouser, intentionally raising the specter of dischord and fear, often completely wrong about the shit he reports, but he keeps his job because sports journalists are actually RESPECTED for making crap up that gets people upset.

    Suggesting that Isiah is “the Knicks top basketball executive” is preposterous, insulting, and scary as hell. Back off that ledge, Silverman. I’m sure Mike won’t mind if we morph into a Warriors blog in the event of an Isiah return.

  313. Doug

    bobneptune:
    steven,the reason they need to include felton for billups is MOTO!

    I hadn’t looked closely at a Felton-Billups swap as salary relief for Denver, so thanks for the detailed explanation.

    If this is the case, New York should scale down their offer for Melo. Denver is not just offering Billups as a 1:1 replacement for Felton, they are asking New York to provide them some crucial salary relief. There’s no reason the Knicks should both gut their roster for Melo AND take on Denver’s lead weight contracts. F that noise.

    I feel like NY offering salary relief is worth at least taking one player in the deal off the table.

  314. StevenU

    Ben you are right-I know that adjusted FG% shows the difference in their respective shooting ability more clearly. My point is that he has never been a great passer/play maker, and, when you look at the whole package including age, salary, floor game, passing and defense-Felton has the edge in every other category right now. And as long as they don’t add Melo-the high volume ball dominating scorer (with no other exceptional skill) Felton fits beautifully on THIS Knick team.
    I also agree with you that if Lawson was put into the deal it looks a lot better right away; I still don’t like it but at least some speed and youth would be coming back. And amidst allllll the rumors I have not once read that Lawson is coming.

  315. Frank O.

    I also think the argument that Felton and Douglas are good guards.
    Opposing guards are shooting 74 percent of their shots from outside, with and eFG% of .504.
    That’s not good.
    The Knicks clearly are not a very good defensive team. They are designed to score more than the other guys.
    Billups is a far more dangerous scorer from outside than Felton and his TS% is so much better it’s kind of funny.
    The knicks are dangerous because they can score. They are picking up two premier scorers to stand with perhaps one of the best PFs in the game.
    But to say you’re going to miss Felton’s D is like saying you miss a mirage.

  316. flossy

    @343 “And for a guy who is supposedly such an amazing knock down incredible hall of fame shooter-Billups career shooting % is .418.”

    You really need to let go of FG%. It tells you nothing about how efficiently a player scores because it doesn’t factor in the extra point you get from shooting a 3, or the fact that free throws count as points but not as field goal attempts. True shooting % is weighted to account for all of those factors. Let’s compare some career TS% and keep in mind league average is about .540:

    Raymond Felton .498
    Chauncey Billups .581
    Ray Allen .578
    Steve Nash .606
    Kobe Bryant .557
    Chris Paul .574
    Deron Williams .563

    One of these things is not like the other… Let’s look at this season:

    Raymond Felton .524
    Chauncey Billups .634
    Ray Allen .623
    Steve Nash .636
    Kobe Bryant .555
    Chris Paul .604
    Deron Williams .587

    Wow. Just look at the difference between Felton and Billups. It is so not even close, that it is not even funny. That comparisons are to other elite PGs, or other elite guards in Billups’s age range known for being good scorers. Billups fits right in and Felton doesn’t.

    Now scoring isn’t everything of course, especially from a PG, but that is a huge upgrade right there. And Felton is a better playmaker, but not nearly good enough to make up the difference. If we were talking about a guy like Rondo who can’t shoot but is a truly great passer, that’s another story. Felton is just an okay playmaker who simply can’t shoot (and yet he is second on the team in shots… hmm…).

  317. StevenU

    Frank O-I hear you, and respect your view. You did just say though that Felton has exceeded expectations and that the team-with him running the point- has as well. I agree. That’s an excellent reason to keep him-not to give him away for a guy at the end.
    And I really hate any argument that includes a future possible acquisition of a coveted superstar as it’s basis. How many teams will be vying for those two great PGs? I think approximately all of them minus Chicago and Oklahoma City. Even the most optimistic Knick fan (clearly not me-I’ve been through too much) has to allow for the possibility that we might not get CP3 or DWill. I don’t think anyone would disagree that two years from now Felton-at 28 and with 2 years experience running this system- would be a far better fall back option than a 36 year old Billups. If Billups even wanted to play here.
    And, as Doug just said: If part of what Denver wants is salary relief of a Felton Billups inclusion-fine. But then the Knick offer should reflect this. With the luxury tax, that saves Denver double the difference in salaries and ought to allow us to give up less. No?
    At this point it really seems the Knicks are competing against themselves and ready to blow up the team and I do not see one person here saying this turns them into a title contender. Every single person that seems to think it’s great says so with this assumption that it’s a foregone conclusion that we’ll add CP3, DWill and maybe DHoward too.In 2 years. Based on WHAT? CP3′s speech? Cmon.

  318. flossy

    flossy: @343“And for a guy who is supposedly such an amazing knock down incredible hall of fame shooter-Billups career shooting % is .418.”You really need to let go of FG%.It tells you nothing about how efficiently a player scores because it doesn’t factor in the extra point you get from shooting a 3, or the fact that free throws count as points but not as field goal attempts.True shooting % is weighted to account for all of those factors..  

    Sorry, I started that comment before I saw 354. Didn’t mean to make exactly the same point but longer.

  319. bobneptune

    Brian Cronin:
    They’re very similar players. Mike had a bit on it during the offseason. Joe Smith, too. Let’s say Joe Smith is the basement and Kemp is the ceiling. 3rd-year Smith would be a good player to have. And they’re all post players.  

    they are very similar players? the only similarity between kemp and AR is they are both tall and black.

    they both came into the nba at a similar age and by his second season kemp was into full blown stardom. in his 2nd season @21 years old he averaged 15 ppg, shot > 50% from the floor , averaged 8.4rpg and blocked 1.5 shots. he went on to be a 6 time all star.

    kemp was a power player who out weighed AR by 60lbs. AR is slightly taller louis orr without any range.

    only in your dreams are they the same. don’t insult joe smith either by comparing him to this underachiever who managed to alienate any coach he’s come into contact with.

  320. StevenU

    flossy-good stats, and a well made point. Still, I think we all agree-we are talking about one aspect of the game-shooting. Billups is a far better -granted.
    PG responsibilities extend well beyond that and you-nor anyone else-is disagreeing with me that in every other facet-at this point in their careers-Felton is superior.
    Frank O-what if we don’t get one of those two much sought after superstar PGs? Then what? What if it’s not just a 2 year rental? Is there some under the table deal I don’t know about? Seriously, you are clearly a very smart guy and an interested fan. You don’t think at least 20 teams will be trying hard to get those two players? Am I the only one that sees this sad parallel to the whole LeBron fiasco?
    I have absolutely had it with what ifs and future possibilities. The Knicks owe it to their fans to try to win every single season. Otherwise tickets should be free till they bring in the dream team

  321. latke

    Let’s forget ‘Melo for a second and look just at what the difference in TS% means for the knicks. Billups’ outside shooting will undoubtedly open up the middle for the knicks, improving Amare’s TS%. If he gets halfway back to where he was with Phoenix last year, that means we’ll score, just from Amare’s improvement, an extra 1.1 ppg. Now what about Billups’ own efficiency? If he takes the same # of shots as Felton, we’ll score about 3.6 ppg more. 4.7 ppg more gets us from an average win margin of .44 ppg to an average win margin of 5.14ppg. That’s the difference between us being comparable to the Blazers/Rockets/Suns, to us being right there with the Lakers, Bulls, and Magic in terms of point differential (the best predictor of team success).

    HUGE DIFFERENCE.

    10-15 MORE WINS OVER THE COURSE OF A SEASON.

    Obviously that is not the entirety of the equation, but IMO those are the two surest changes we’d see from a trade like this. IMO the defense WILL get worse, and as far as Anthony’s effect on the offense, it’s really hard to say where his efficiency will end up in comparison to Gallo and WC, but I find it hard to believe that if he plays within the system we won’t see a dramatic improvement. We’ll also see more of Walker and Williams, and with a higher concentration of offensive firepower, they’ll be able to take more of those open 3 pointers that they’ve been incredibly efficient at (far better than either Gallo or Chandler). Again though they’re both bad defenders.

    I’m still against this trade though, basically because I speculate that we could do better, and because AR, Gallo and WC have far more potential for improvement (and more value as trade chips).

  322. jon abbey

    I don’t believe much of what Isola writes (not that I ever read the Snooze, but what people repost elsewhere), but if this tweet he just sent is true, this is more damning than that Woj piece:

    “James Dolan believes that if Isiah were involved from the start LeBron would be a Knick. Feels he got Amar’e & that he is delivering Carmelo”

  323. Frank O.

    StevenU: flossy-good stats, and a well made point. Still, I think we all agree-we are talking about one aspect of the game-shooting. Billups is a far better -granted.
    PG responsibilities extend well beyond that and you-nor anyone else-is disagreeing with me that in every other facet-at this point in their careers-Felton is superior.
    Frank O-what if we don’t get one of those two much sought after superstar PGs? Then what? What if it’s not just a 2 year rental? Is there some under the table deal I don’t know about? Seriously, you are clearly a very smart guy and an interested fan. You don’t think at least 20 teams will be trying hard to get those two players? Am I the only one that sees this sad parallel to the whole LeBron fiasco?
    I have absolutely had it with what ifs and future possibilities. The Knicks owe it to their fans to try to win every single season. Otherwise tickets should be free till they bring in the dream team  

    With Amare and Carmelo ands NYC, the Knicks are a far greater destination than most any other team in basketball, IMHO. And if they are a playoff team, as I believe they will be with those big three – Amare, Carmelo and Billups – it should make a great point guard stand up and notice, and, perhaps, realize he could be the guy that puts them over the top.

    We’re all guessing here, but that’s my thought.

  324. Frank O.

    jon abbey: I don’t believe much of what Isola writes (not that I ever read the Snooze, but what people repost elsewhere), but if this tweet he just sent is true, this is more damning than that Woj piece:“James Dolan believes that if Isiah were involved from the start LeBron would be a Knick. Feels he got Amar’e & that he is delivering Carmelo”  

    Isiah is the Knicks’ fans’ bogeyman.
    I think we all fear the bogeyman in the closet, but like we tell our kids, there is no bogeyman in the closet. He’s a phantom.

  325. Frank O.

    The Billups TS% and eFG% argument v Felton has been made over and over again within the past 370 messages.
    If it hasn’t taken yet, it won’t. I’m not trying to convince anyone anymore.
    And no matter how many statistics one can show that indicates Felton’s D isn’t very good, people continue to say he’s a tough defender…
    And if you can’t see that felton was a rental, well, you haven’t been listening. Remember, Felton wanted a third year and the Knicks refused.

    I don’t know what else to write. This deal with happen or not.
    But at this point if it doesn’t Gallo, WC, and Felton all will be alienated, not just from management, but from Amare. Amare has been saying nice things about getting Billups and Carmelo.
    Hurt feelings will be plenty.

    The deal now needs to happen.

  326. latke

    bob neptune:

    Anthony Randolph career minutes played: 2,005

    Kevin Durant WS/48 after 2768 NBA minutes: .040
    John Wall WS/48 after 1550 NBA minutes: .041
    Deron Williams WS/48 after 2307 NBA minutes: .059
    Randolph WS/48 after 2005 NBA minutes: .071
    LBJ WS/48 after over 3100 NBA minutes: .078
    Joe Johnson WS/48 after 1916 NBA minutes: .075
    Garnett WS/48 after 2293 NBA minutes: .093

    Should the Cavs have sent Lebron packing after his “subpar” first season? What about OKC? Would they have been wise to get rid of the guy who they saw so much potential in but whose stats suggested that he wasn’t quite comfortable in the NBA? I mean, I’m sure Minnesota would have given them a bad first round pick for him.

    There are a few counterexamples here of guys who game in young and immediately produced (Bosh, Paul both game had WS/48 over .1 in their first seasons), but the norm seems to be that young guys just aren’t very good early on and need time and minutes to get comfortable and adjust their games. Some of them never develop, but you never know until you give them a chance.

  327. jon abbey

    the latest reporting from Berger makes it seem as if Randolph isn’t a part of the “final” offer:

    “KBerg_CBS Ken Berger
    Updating #Knicks’ offer for Melo: Pick going to Denver is NYK’s 2014 first-rounder, sources say.”

  328. jon abbey

    whoops, never mind, they’d be giving up both Randolph and the 2014 #1, yikes:

    “The Knicks would send three starters — Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinari, and Raymond Felton — to Denver for Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Shelden Williams and Anthony Carter, sources said Sunday. The Nuggets would get the Knicks’ first-round pick in 2014, while Minnesota would get Eddy Curry’s expiring contract and Anthony Randolph from New York. Curry would then be waived, and the Knicks would send as much as $3 million to Minnesota to pay his freight. Carter must approve the trade and waive his Bird rights for the deal to be approved. ”

    http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/27587236

  329. StevenU

    latke there are so many ifs and suppositions in that projection-do you actually believe Billups for Felton is 10-15 win improvement?
    The old saying about statistics leaps to mind: If you torture them enough they’ll say whatever you want them to.
    Among the flaws in that argument_Why would Amares efficiency return to what it was in Phoenix with playing for Alvin Gentry and with Steve Nash?
    Why would Billups take the same number of shots Felton does and if he did why do you think his efficiency would remain what it is?
    Amare got higher quality shots in Phoenix because of Steve Nash and his HOF play making skills. To suppose that Billups becomes Nash on the p&r with Amare is completely without any fact based basis.
    Part of why Billups TS% is so much higher is better shot selection that Felton demonstrates. So he won’t take the same number of shots and if he does, his TS% will drop.

  330. Caleb

    That is an awful offer. Hopefully it’s just a fantasy.

    All this back and forth is silly – if the Knicks have any clue, they cut back the offer to something reasonable (or, stick to the reasonable offer they’ve ACTUALLY made) – and make Melo decide if he wants to be a Net, or take a minor haircut by signing in the summer. If he walks, it’s not the end of the world.

    Heck, if the Knicks are hell-bent on paying him $21 million, they can do it – they’d just have to clear another $8-9 million this summer by trading some combo of Mozgov ($3.75), Randolph ($2.9), Gallo ($4.2), Turiaf ($4.3) and/or some smaller deals. (And, let Chandler go). In other words, they could give up exactly what they’re giving up now, except they’d get multiple 1st-round picks in the process.

    Surely Melo could recognize that (if his reps were actually repping him, and not themselves and other clients) — and also see that waiting a few months would put him in much better position to win a championship, with the team being so much stronger.

  331. Caleb

    With the trade now, AR makes all the difference – Melo is basically replacing the Chandler/Gallo minutes anyway… keeping two future good starters (Fields/AR) is a world better than keeping one.

    No, I don’t think AR is very similar to Shawn Kemp – he is not a big bruiser post player – but would not be surprised if he is just as good.

    Anyone who says he doesn’t have offensive skills is blind. He’s got a great handle and nice passing skills. Even his stroke isn’t bad – he’s a 75+ free-throw shooter. He’s raw – people are calling it “low basketball IQ” but you’re talking about a guy who didn’t even start playing ’til he was in high school, spent one year in college (with two coaches) and is STILL just 21. All he needs is maturity and experience and the odds of those kicking in are about 90 percent.

    Doesn’t mean he’ll be a superstar, or even an All-Star, but those are real possibilities and even in the total worst-case scenario where he never gets better than he is now, he’s a useful player.

    I was a Balkman fan but there’s zero comparison.

  332. latke

    Steven, you make valid points about Chauncey’s playmaking ability. I’m not sure how good he’ll be. Regardless, the biggest detriment to SSOL (and the main reason we see so many Amaré jumpshots and isos and missed 3s from Felton) has been Felton’s poor jumpshooting. If Felton can’t force Amare’s man to come out and guard him at the 3 point line, then Amare’s man can just stick with him.

    That kills the pick and roll. All that’s left is for Felton to chuck, or for the Knicks to reset and run an isolation play for Stoudemire. In short, Billups fixes the main hitch in the current Knick offense. Whether he creates a body of new problems due to poor playmaking skill is an open question, but Felton was never known as a great playmaker, and he’s adapted pretty well.

  333. New Guy

    Melo doesn’t give a shit about anything but his precious extension and getting the attention he craves in NY.

    I’m also very, very down on Amar’e for not sticking up for his teammates.

  334. Z

    New Guy:
    I’ll offer up one thing:Melo supposedly met extensively w Dolanto discuss the future of the knicks.And if isiah is really as prominently involved as reports indicate I’d think he’d want to run the other way, no?  

    Players actually like Isiah. A lot of them idolized him growing up. They don’t care much about Donnie Walsh’s law degree, his draft record, or his fiscal responsibility. They relate to Isiah, who rose from the Inner-city to earn fame and fortune playing basketball.

    Isiah is a terrible GM, and from all indications a terrible person too, but he probably does have influence over these players, and it is possible that Dolan recognizes that.

  335. StevenU

    I am really glad at least a couple of people here see the idiocy of this. This is a horrible deal. I can not believe they are about to blow up this fun watchable entertaining improving young team- before they even see what they can be-for a great scorer and an aging PG. Losing ANOTHER #1 pick, and taking on Anthony Carter and Shelden Williams is just salt in a gaping wound. So freaking stupid. I hate James Dolan.

  336. Ben R

    I am sitting here just praying this whole deal blows up and we end up making a couple small trades and keep the team intact. If Melo signed the extension and went to NJ, I’d treat myself to a steak dinner and celebrate.

  337. Frank

    To all the people who dont think Billups can succeed in this offense– why would you think such a thing? Is this just based on your basketball expertise and film study or just because you don’t think he’ll do well?

    Check out this link:

    http://nbaplaybook.com/2010/07/02/can-a-poor-shooting-pg-run-an-effective-pick-and-roll/

    Billups was the 2nd best scoring PG off the PnR and in the top 10 in terms of roll man scoring. And remember that he never had a roll man like Stat. I’m not saying he’ll be Steve Nash but there is a good chance he’ll be better than Felton.

    That said- this is too much to give up, especially if we’re throwing another 2014 pick too.

  338. StevenU

    latke-the problem with that is when the p&r 1st and 2nd options are not there that’s when the ball gets swung around the arc where we currently have Gallo Fields and Chandler. Attacking from the wing they all shoot the 3 better than Melo, and with a much lower usage rate, Gallo is getting to the line for 6 attempts per game (not so far below Melos 7.9 with a MUCH higher usage rate)-often on that very play, because of the lanes opened by the way the teams take away STAT on the p&r
    I will absolutely grant you that Felton takes too many low % 3s when that play doesn’t work.
    I just think we are giving up WAY way too much considering Denvers other options. To a totally ridiculous infuriating degree. So much that it ruins our depth, dims our future, and once again places our future hopes on what ifs and maybes about a future free agent class when no one even knows what the new CBA will be.
    No one has even mentioned the [possibility of a franchise tag where DWill and CP3 could be forced to remain with their current teams-or a lowered cap which could mean the Knicks are in awful capped out position with their two superstars. Sickeningly familiar.

  339. New Guy

    So what are the chances that our master plan is to back out of this at the last minute?

    I mean, it would be a brilliant move. And it’s not like Denver has ever been negotiating in good faith.

    If denver keeps dragging their feet through the week, what option are they going to have if we say we have to pull Gallo out of the trade? Particularly if we effectively lie to the media about what we’re doing?

    Melo won’t sign with them, and we all know he’s never going to the Nets.

    Damn we have so much f’ing leverage. How are we giving up so much?

  340. New Guy

    The only thing I didn’t believe in hahn’s arctic,e was the source who made it clear that the Knicks are bidding against 2 teams, Denver and NJ. I believe the source told him that, I just don’t believe it’s true. It’s misinformation from the Melo camp.

    Again: i believe Melo is flat our lying about his willingness to sign with denver or NJ. And the only reason to lie about it is to get his extension now at the expense of his teammates.

    I’m personally getting sick of all these Redeem Team guys, and I will root hard for the younger guns like Durant and Rose, or the older Laker Celtic guys, against any if them. (thats right, I would actually root for the bulls!)

  341. BigBlueAL

    Too bad when you root for the Bulls in the playoffs they will be eliminated by the Knicks in the 1st round. lol

  342. Thomas B.

    The Knicks are giving up too much, but maybe just maybe, the plan is to sign Anthony to the extension then trade him to NJ for the Derrick Favors + 4 first rounders deal. I could go for that.

    Also, the fact that are all still using this post as the place to talk about this trade when there are 4 other posts ahead of this one shows that we do not need to return to the mess that was the KB forum experiment.

  343. JK47

    So Ray Felton is “scrappy,” plays like a “bulldog” and is “gritty.” Is this guy a basketball player or David Eckstein? Usually “scrappy” is a euphemism for “not very good but he tries hard and isn’t that cute.”

    Felton completely offsets his playmaking ability with his craptastic shooting and the ridiculous volume of that crappy shooting. I don’t really understand the love for him, to be honest. Every day the dude puts up another 6-16 FGA, 2-6 3PT line. I’ll be glad when he’s gone and we have a real PG in there.

  344. StevenU

    @newguy386-Yeah, that would be genius move-and thus an impossibility given that James Dolan is the final decision maker. This making me sick-and to read that it’s likely to drag on till Thursday even more so

  345. BigBlueAL

    Thomas if you had to choose between one or the other, do you choose this trade for Melo or going back to the forum style here?? lol

  346. StevenU

    Thomas B-that might be the craziest post yet-kudos ;-) (It would be highly amusing-but still looks like a pretty awful deal for the Knicks. Thus far, Favors can not supplant Kris Humphries-not sayign he won;lt be good but not the type of player you’d trade half a team for).
    lol@ JK-even though I love Felton those numbers do look pretty typical…it’s just that if it goes with 8-10 assists, 2 steals, 30pts from STAT and a W, it’s all good.

  347. New Guy

    BigBlueAL: Too bad when you root for the Bulls in the playoffs they will be eliminated by the Knicks in the 1st round.lol  

    Great point!

    Of course, I will not “root” for any team besides my Knicks. But I strongly admire the way a guy like D-Rose has set himself up outside that clique and takes his game to another level to try to beat them.

  348. bobneptune

    art vandelay: Prokhorov: Nets/Carmelo “good tactical decision to force Knicks to pay as much as they can.” via @darrenrovell: http://bit.ly/dZJc9i  

    we can only hope egomaniac dolan reads this, but in reality, the ruskie got his chain pulled twice by melo.

  349. BigBlueAL

    Im too much of a Knicks fan.

    If nothing happens I wont care because I like the current team and still have some hope of potentially making some noise in the 1st round depending on the matchup plus obviously the future will still look very good because of the cap situation.

    If this trade goes down I wont bitch and moan and actually look forward to seeing Melo and Billups and believe they will have a very good chance of getting out of the 1st round this season as long as they dont face Boston or Miami. Unlike everyone I dont think the trade will kill the future and we become “doomed” to root for a team who wont be able to get out of the 1st/2nd round of the playoffs.

    Plus hey the Yankees officially started Spring Training today so Im good regardless lol.

  350. jon abbey

    Thomas B.: The Knicks are giving up too much, but maybe just maybe, the plan is to sign Anthony to the extension then trade him to NJ for the Derrick Favors + 4 first rounders deal.I could go for that.   

    zero chance of that.

    “Also, the fact that are all still using this post as the place to talk about this trade when there are 4 other posts ahead of this one shows that we do not need to return to the mess that was the KB forum experiment.”

    actually I was thinking the exact opposite (no surprise), this page is pretty unwieldy to load over and over, and it’d be nice to have all of the Melo talk since the fall in one place.

  351. New Guy

    BigBlueAL: Im too much of a Knicks fan.If nothing happens I wont care because I like the current team and still have some hope of potentially making some noise in the 1st round depending on the matchup plus obviously the future will still look very good because of the cap situation.If this trade goes down I wont bitch and moan and actually look forward to seeing Melo and Billups and believe they will have a very good chance of getting out of the 1st round this season as long as they dont face Boston or Miami.Unlike everyone I dont think the trade will kill the future and we become “doomed” to root for a team who wont be able to get out of the 1st/2nd round of the playoffs.Plus hey the Yankees officially started Spring Training today so Im good regardless lol.  

    I’ll still be a Knicks fan, too, didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I’ve just had so much fun these last few months I don’t want to see the guys who provided it get shipped off. I don’t really care that this team isn’t good enough to win a championship. They make we want to watch every Knicks game, and they make every game I watch enjoyable.

    I’m not ready to pull the plug on them. I want to see what happens. I want to watch AR settle this debate one way or another, want to see Gallo continue to develop his game, to see Landry evolve. I want another big added to this team to see what they can do. The last thing I want is to blow it up so another one of these Redeem Team brats can make a joke out of the league and it’s fans?

  352. daJudge

    If we made this trade now and next year signed CP3 or another max would anyone regard this set up move as flawed? It is a set up move. Isn’t that really the context? Maybe it’s like sacrificing a knight, rook and bishop to achieve checkmate. Melo’s individual abilities can of course be debated, but can it be seriously argued that his acquisition will not assist in the above? To me, that’s the single strongest reason to grab him, even if we are in some senses over paying. Further, if the Knicks felt assured that it was them now or free agency later, they would have waited. I do not think they have acted precipitously or were influenced by their former GM, Kaiser Sose.

  353. New Guy

    Dajudge, its a short sighted set up move. I expect the only way to get DWill or CP3 will be to go through this same process again next year, and I fear we’ll have given up too many assets in this trade for that to be possible.

  354. JR Sec 112

    What assets are too many? For the triumvirate of Dwill, Melo, and Amare, do you really need a lot of other assets? Miami’s 3 is better, but they have ZERO other assets and are doing just fine.

    On another note, its funny how much love there is for Ray Felton here. He’s been a Knick for 50 games. Next year, the love will be all over the board for Melo, like it is all over the Denver blogs….

  355. latke

    I really don’t criticize the move if you have information that says getting Anthony = significant increase in the possibility of getting Paul or Williams.

    What I DO criticize is giving away more than you have to.

    My new theory is that ‘Melo basically told Dolan that he wants to go to new york, but that he wants the money too, and if they don’t sign him, he’ll consider resigning or accepting a trade to NJ. If this is the case you really can’t fault whoever is making the decisions for stepping up the deal (as long as they have solid reason to believe it means a virtually guarantee at Williams or Paul). All you can do is grumble about how you wish Carmelo was willing to give up that extra cash.

  356. New Guy

    Er, Miami doesn’t need assets cuz they already have their 3. We still need to get the 3rd, so we need either trade assets or cap space. We’re giving up most of our assets, and with our big 2 making almost as much as the entire big 3 in Miami, we likely won’t have the cap room.

    Plus by the time we get all this in place, Miami’s big 3 will have had two full seasons of playing together and using the MLE to add more players.

  357. johnno

    Maybe we should all admit that perhaps D’Antoni and Walsh know a little more about basketball than we do. Criticize D’Antoni, his style of play and his handling of players all you want but, right now, the team is on pace to win about 45 games if no trade is made, which is about 12 more wins than most of the so-called “experts” predicted at the beginning of the year. The Vegas oddsmakers had the over/under for Knicks wins at 33-1/2. I think that they’ve both done a great job this year.
    One poster above said that he hasn’t heard anyone say that this deal makes the Knicks leapfrog any of the top 5 teams in the Eastern Conference. I’ll say it — if they make this deal, the only teams in the East that are clearly better are the Celtics and Heat. They will present all kinds of matchup problems for other teams. And, as I said in a prior post, even with Billups they will STILL have one of the youngest starting fives of any good team, including 2 rookies.
    And for all of you who think that the Knicks hold all of the leverage in this deal, think again. Yes, ‘Melo wants to be a Knick, but he is also a PROFESSIONAL athlete and a businessman. Depending on what happens with the CBA, he stands to lose somewhere between $10 and $40 million if he doesn’t sign an extension now. How many of you would take that risk if it were your money? I wouldn’t. If the Nuggets tell him that it’s the Nets or no deal, my bet is that, 5 minutes before the trade deadline he caves and agrees to the Nets deal or simply signs the extension with the Nuggets.

  358. Thomas B.

    jon abbey:
    zero chance of that.“Also, the fact that are all still using this post as the place to talk about this trade when there are 4 other posts ahead of this one shows that we do not need to return to the mess that was the KB forum experiment.”actually I was thinking the exact opposite (no surprise), this page is pretty unwieldy to load over and over, and it’d be nice to have all of the Melo talk since the fall in one place.  

    Tomayto, tahmato, patayto, pahtoto lets call the whole thing off. :-)
    Sorry, I forgot you lobbied for the forums. No disrespect intended.

    I guess there are pros to it, but I found that there was too much going on and it seemed difficult getting everyone sharing on the same thing. I found it felt less like a community. But we seem to be managing the Melo talk well for the moment. So would you create a new post as each new melo rumor came out, or would it have been just one place for all Melo chatter? Pro melo post and anti posts? Poss for each trade scenario? Honestly i have no clue how you would organize that much discussion. Me brain no work so well since me have 2 kids. Sleep no more get.

  359. johnno

    And, even if you want to think that Walsh doesn’t know more about basketball in general than we do, I think that you have to admit that he knows a heck of a lot more than we do about THIS particular negotiation. If he thinks that it was necessary to increase the offer to where it stands, I would tend to trust him. Unless you want to trust all of the experts who claim that the Knicks can get ‘Melo as a free agent — many of the same guys who swore that LeBron wanted to be a Knick. I will never forget Stephen A. Smith saying that LeBron had decided to sign with the Knicks and that “I’M NOT TELLING YOU WHAT I THINK. I’M TELLING YOU WHAT THE HELL I KNOW.” That worked out well…

  360. Robert Silverman

    tastycakes:
    Suggesting that Isiah is “the Knicks top basketball executive” is preposterous, insulting, and scary as hell. Back off that ledge, Silverman. I’m sure Mike won’t mind if we morph into a Warriors blog in the event

    Thanks Tasty. Doing much better now

  361. New Guy

    Johnno, we all know that Donnie and MDA know more than us. We also know that they stated publicly numerous times they would not gut this team. Their philosophy on these negotiations is well known.

    Now we’ve done a 180 on that philosophy, and there is substantial reason to believe that Dolan is overruling his coach and GM, that bizarre statement notwithstanding.

    We trust Donnie, but this is the opposite of what Donnie appears to want. So now many of us think Dolans impatience has taken over and he’s making decisions that Donnie and MDA don’t agree with.

    And yes, all of us here think we know more about basketball than Dolan.

  362. johnno

    New Guy — you don’t think that Donnie and MDA have been posturing? Unlike most people, I think that they’ve played this brilliantly. Take emotion out of it and ignore the fantasy that the Knicks could get ‘Melo for nothing this summer. Billups and ‘Melo for Gallo, Chandler and Felton is a great deal for the Knicks. A simple way to judge a trade — who ended up with the best player? In this case, it’s the Knicks in a landslide. I really like Chandler and Gallo but they will never be as good as ‘Melo is now.

  363. Owen

    “And yes, all of us here think we know more about basketball than Dolan.”

    Co sign

    The forums seemed like a good idea but I don’t miss them. Couldn’t get a critical mass together…

  364. totti

    ok guys from this blog:

    to me was a pleasure to read this blog and write some posts occasionally. You are the best place for talking seriously about knicks. I have to say that after the leaving of supreme judge ted nelson the blog have improved a lot. P&T another very good place, with Seth best analyst to me. thank you to all of you

  365. John Kenney

    @robert: no.

    414 comments is too many for my browser to load so I’m gonna move to the top post.

  366. New Guy

    johnno: New Guy — you don’t think that Donnie and MDA have been posturing?Unlike most people, I think that they’ve played this brilliantly.Take emotion out of it and ignore the fantasy that the Knicks could get ‘Melo for nothing this summer.Billups and ‘Melo for Gallo, Chandler and Felton is a great deal for the Knicks.A simple way to judge a trade — who ended up with the best player?In this case, it’s the Knicks in a landslide.I really like Chandler and Gallo but they will never be as good as ‘Melo is now.  

    Funny, I seem to recall ending up with the best player in every trade Isiah made, too. So maybe we shouldn’t be using such a simple method to judge a trade, no?

  367. New Guy

    A better way to judge a trade, IMO, is how does your team look when its done, how much did you give up to get there, and how much do you have left to get where you want to go.

    IMO, as constituted, this trade makes us better, but still not good enough, comes at a very high cost, and doesn’t leave us a lot of assets to make the necessary improvements.

    Furthermore, it’s not a fantasy that we can sign Melo in the offseason as a FA. All we have to do is not make this trade, then see if he really wants to spend the rest of his career on the Nets. He’s already burned too many bridges in Denver.

  368. bobneptune

    latke: I really don’t criticize the move if you have information that says getting Anthony = significant increase in the possibility of getting Paul or Williams.What I DO criticize is giving away more than you have to.
    My new theory is that ‘Melo basically told Dolan that he wants to go to new york, but that he wants the money too, and if they don’t sign him, he’ll consider resigning or accepting a trade to NJ.

    this is why nepotism is generally bad. had dolan earned the ceo job at msg rather than have inherited it, he would have immediately responded,” mr carmelo, if the difference between the 83.5 million you can receive being extended and the 77 million you will get as a fa with me is that important to you, have fun spending the rest of your career with brook lopez as your wingman and kris humphey as your 4.”

    i mean at what point do you stop giving away assets for a guy you can get for free? i mean we can still sweeten the pot with mosgov, fields and 1st round picks in ’16, ’18, ’20 and’22!

    and how are they going to fit a 3rd guy in with melo and amar’e eating 40 million in salaries in 2012? does anyone see one of these egomaniacs like williams, howard or cp3 joining the nix for 10 million a year while their boys are making 20???

    that was the genius of riley… he got wade, lebron and bosh to work for 14.5 million each this season so all 3 could fit under the cap.

    welcome to 45-50 win teams for the next 4 years, but no chance to win it all…….

  369. bobneptune

    johnno: Depending on what happens with the CBA, he stands to lose somewhere between $10 and $40 million if he doesn’t sign an extension now.

    hi johnno,

    could you please explain in a star driven and marketed league , how on earth melo could possibly lose 40 million dollars over the next 4 years his new contract will cover???

    cliffs notes:

    if there is any hard cap in the next cba (and that is highly unlikely) and say a 10 million dollar per year max figure was established, existing contracts would necessarily need to be rolled back, too.

    the possibility of losing 40 million or anything near that is a complete straw man argument.

  370. art vandelay

    this is insane….there are idiots out there like Ian OConnor for espn new york advocating we give up MORE (namely mozgo) now to secure melo!!! total lunacy

  371. johnno

    bobneptune -
    Maybe you are right about the new CBA but, then again, maybe you’re not. Maybe the cap gets reduced by $10 million, but max contracts don’t get reduced, in which case the Knicks wouldn’t have cap space to sign him. Or maybe new contracts are reduced but existing contracts are grandfathered and not rolled back. Or maybe there’s a franchise tag in the new agreement, in which case he won’t be able to leave Denver. The point is that no one knows. If it were your life and your career, would you take the chance? I probably wouldn’t. Besides, it doesn’t matter what you and I think. What matters is what ‘Melo thinks and in his own words, he feels that, if he doesn’t sign an extension now, “I’m screwed.” His perception is his reality, so he will probably blink and sign a deal with the Nets or Nuggets.

  372. bobneptune

    johnno: bobneptune -
    Maybe you are right about the new CBA but, then again, maybe you’re not.

    no one know what the new cba will look like, but for the new cap to be reduced 10 million revenue to the players would have to drop by 20% and they can never agree to that. never in a million years , so those gloom and doom scenarios are totally unrealistic.

    i think the overall point is almost everyone would like to have carmelo, but the question is… at what price.

    leave the swap of the point guards out of the equation and for the sake of argument, call it a wash. in a vacuum, as much as i like chandler and gallo, i would trade them for melo in a heartbeat.

    however, we don’t operate in a vacuum, we operate in reality. signing melo to the current extension would leave~ 10 million if they strip the roster completely down in 2012. i don’t see how that signs a 3rd big player.

    plus, it isn’t gallo and chandler for melo. we have to move randolph to get mn to eat curry’s contract (denver won’t take it even though they could under the cba) and we have to give them a 2014 first round pick.

    so, i totality, we have to trade gallo and chandler, trade randolph and a 2014 first round draft choice. we then also in the process give denver $20,000,000 in salary relief this year and next which also saves them 10,000,000 in luxury taxes this year. so we save them 50,000,000 in cash and have to give up the ranch.

    plus… now it looks as though denver is waiting for dolan to throw mosgov into the mix.

    do we really need to stroke melo that much???

    and quite frankly, what happens if we don’t sign melo? the sun still rises tomorrow.

  373. bobneptune

    johnnoWhat matters is what ‘Melo thinks and in his own words, he feels that, if he doesn’t sign an extension now, “I’m screwed.”His perception is his reality, so he will probably blink and sign a deal with the Nets or Nuggets.  

    i totally agree and understand melo wants to get extended now, but people in hell want ice water, too. that isn’t the knicks problem.

    if melo chooses to stay in denver or sign with the nyets rather than sign with the knicks , so be it. he will live with the consequences and so will the nix. the nix will win 43-45 games this year and likely 45 – 50 next year with just the normal progression of mosgov, chandler, fields, gallo and randolph who are all <24.

    plus they will have 15 million under the cap in july with curry, mason and azu expiring. maybe walsh can spend that cap space as well as he did last year with amar'e and felton (a steal @ 7.5 million) should melo decide not to go fa.

    if i run the nix, i call melo and denver's bluff and i don't lose a second of sleep if he is not available in july. the nix will still have plenty of options with a good team and 15 million to spend on extra players this summer.

  374. bobneptune

    art vandelay: this is insane….there are idiots out there like Ian OConnor for espn new york advocating we give up MORE (namely mozgo) now to secure melo!!!total lunacy  

    this is going to turn out to be a Plutarchian rape of the sabines before this is over :-)

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