With the Ewing example, for instance, maybe Ewing post-having working knees was a better fit in the dead-ball ’90s with his size and strength and maybe Howard is a better fit in the current era with his athleticism and quickness. I think Howard does have very good post moves, and otherwise wouldn’t be able to score so efficiently. They’re not traditional back-to-the-basket post moves, but the game has changed. He can get better at scoring, sure, but is already very good. He does things that Ewing simply would not have been able to do once his knees started to go. I also think you are overrating Ewing as an offensive player and underrating the Knicks team defense. The Knicks were clearly a defensive team. They won games because they had one of the best defenses of all-time for several years (the best in absolute terms really). Their offense was more a liability than anything. Howard is an excellent defensive player with more mobility and versatility than most of the guys on your list. I could just as easily say that with a more efficient scorer and more athletic/versatile defender like Howard the Knicks win the Finals, and again there’s no way to say for sure.

All the great Cs had their strengths and their weaknesses relative to one another. That’s why I wouldn’t say Howard is or is not better than player x, unless it’s painfully obvious. I would just say that at 24 he’s right there with the greats. His defense and rebounding are probably up towards the top of the list (defense overall is hard to say, would put Russell at the top in rebounding… people say he couldn’t have gotten so many boards in the modern era, but Rodman averaged 15-18.7 rpg throughout the 90s). His offense is not at the top at this point, but if you balance the two out I’d put him towards the middle of the pack (if he keeps up close to the same production for 7+ more seasons… could get better or worse going forward of course).

I don’t really buy the 6 full seasons argument. Are you to take Howard’s 19 and 20 year old seasons coming out of high school and compare them at face value with Ewings 23 and 24 year old seasons after playing top NCAA comp? There’s no way to say how the guys who went to college would have played their first 3 or 4 NBA seasons. I’m not going to bother trying.

I’m also not just talking about Howard improving. Right now he’s great. All-time great. Bill Walton never once had a season that topped Howard’s PER at 23 or WS/48 at 23 and 24 yo. Ewing never topped his 23 or 24 yo WS/48 and only his 23 yo PER once at 27 yo. Moses Malone topped his PER and WS/48 once each, also at 27 yo. Hakeem tied his WS/48 once and topped his PER twice. Duncan never topped his top PER or WS/48 before 25 yo. Robinson was 24 yo his 1st NBA season. If he retired today Dwight Howard would already go down as an all-time great in terms of peak value. When you consider that most of the guys on your list peaked in their later 20s… Howard should be right in the thick of the conversation if he stays pretty healthy.

I still think you are selling Dwight short based on his teammates. Using Championships as a criteria is just not fair for comparing individual players. It’s apples and oranges. Championship are a team accomplishment.

Bill Walton played 3/4 the minutes in 12 seasons that Howard has played in 6… good luck having Walton healthy for your 7 game series.

I think you’re underrating/ignoring defense. Howard can’t impact the game because of his offense, but we’ll just ignore Shaq’s defense all together because he won 4 rings?

His offense is limited, but Bill Russell’s was not?

Kareem’s team lost in the ’74 Finals to a Celtics team whose Cs were listed at 6-7 and 6-9… does that mean he didn’t make his teammates better and isn’t a Champion?

http://82games.com/04SAS14C.HTM
http://82games.com/03SAS15C.HTM
http://82games.com/02SAS12C.HTM

I could see him being roughly equal to David Robinson and eclipsing the others. I guess that makes him an all-time great. Still, even assuming that he makes a marginal upgrade in his offensive repertoire, I would take a number of other guys ahead of him in their primes for a 7-game series, including Robinson, Ewing, and Walton. You might question Ewing, but I think if you replace Ewing with Howard in the 1994 finals, the Knicks get swept. Just my opinion.

I am not saying Dwight Howard is as good an offensive player as Wilt Chamberlain. I’m not saying he is *the best* center of all-time. I am saying that it is very likely that he will be considered as one of the top 10 centers to play the game… and all-time great… when he retires in 10+ seasons. You specifically said that because Howard is limited offensively outside of 10 feet and is a poor FT shooter he will never be in the company of those great centers of yesterday… thing is that Wilt and Shaq couldn’t his FTs either. Neither operated outside of 10 feet much. (Show me this research that says Wilt was a prolific scorer outside the paint… I admit that I haven’t seen any numbers either way, but I’m willing to bet his domination came on what 82games classifies as “inside” shots… which is what you knock Howard for.) Bill Russell was a limited offensive player. Ewing wasn’t a very efficient scorer for most of his career. I can see saying that despite being a great defender Ben Wallace’s offense was too bad for him to make the top 10. Howard’s offense is infinitely better than Ben’s, though, and better than some of the top 10 you list, and his defense is right up there with any center of all-time.

Somehow Dwight Howard has no post moves and is not a polished player and has no moves that can score against good defense, yet he somehow manages to score 20 pts/36 at a TS% of .600 (and you can argue that having multiple scorers around him decreases his usage a bit compared to having one scorer and several role players the way Shaq did or few scorers the way, say, Ewing did… not going to turn him into Wilt Chamberlain, but might bump him up to 22-24 pts/36). I realize that commentators hate on Howard; however, I see this as pretty similar to calling David Lee nothing more than a hustle player in the same way Eduardo Najara is a hustle player. Howard is the best scorer on one of the best offenses in basketball. Are the other-worldly passing skills of Jameer Nelson (sarcasm) the reason Howard looks so good? I don’t think so. The guy is able to physically dominate in the paint in a manner similar to Shaq or Hakeem or Wilt before him. He’s not as good offensively as those three, but he’s certainly better defensively than Shaq. He’s a Hakeem level defender, a Bill Russell.

He can’t score against good defenses, but somehow while being totally locked down by Kendrick Perkins he managed to use 20 possessions per game on shot attempts and score 22 ppg at a TS% of .584… not an offensive force at all, though. It was probably Howard’s terrible 22 pts on .584 TS% that lost that series and not Rashard Lewis hitting only 22% of his 3s scoring 8 ppg on a TS% of .406, and not Vince Carter scoring 13.7 ppg on a TS% of .458. VC playing like new teammate Chris Duhon didn’t hurt the team at all, and Lewis playing epically worse than Duhon didn’t hurt them either. Or maybe Jameer Nelson’s 17 ppg on a TS% of .559 was actually somehow better than Dwight Howard’s 22 ppg @ .584… Howard is an offensive force. Boston decided to let Howard get his while using KG to shut Lewis. Worked. They might have doubled Howard and kept him to, say, 15 ppg on a .550 TS%, but whoever they left open–Lewis, Carter, Nelson, Redick/Pietrus/Barnes–could have completely lit them up. Orlando doesn’t have a 2nd great player, but they have a bunch of good scorers you don’t want to leave open. Howard could have played better in that series. He was terrible in Game 3. He turned the ball over too much. He came close to his season numbers, though, against what proved to be the 2nd best team in the league. His scoring really wasn’t the problem.

Perkins might not be an all-time great defender. However, he’s a physical specimen. He went into his senior season of HS ranked just behind LeBron based on his size/athleticism before concerns about his weight and offensive skill pushed him to the late 1st round. He’s one of the best defensive Cs in the league and only 25 years old. Against most other Cs I think it’s fair to say Howard would have made them pay more for not doubling him. And whether through luck or Celtics D, Orlando’s shooters were unable to make many shots.

Please find for me where I once use the term jump shot, for either Howard or Wilt? I am talking specifically about shots in the 10-15 foot range, any kind of shot. If you do some research, you will find that Wilt took and made a ton of these. I specifically said that “Dwight Howard is not a threat to shoot outside of 10 feet. Even down low, he is not a polished post player.” This is beyond dispute, and was referred to again and again by the commentators during the Celts series. By Howard’s age, Wilt had several go-to moves in the post that he shot at a high percentage, which made him impossible to defend one on one. The dunk was from 0-5 feet. The “dipper” finger roll was from 5-10 feet. The fadeaway and the hook were from 10-15 feet. What is Howard’s signature shot that can be counted on at a high % for 20+ shots a game vs. tough defense? The dunk? Truth is, he doesn’t have one yet. He was often forced into ugly jump hooks by Perkins and did not seem to make too many. He also turned the ball over (he certainly didn’t pass effectively, having 4 assists in 6 games).

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090513

This is ridiculous and a waste of time. Howard is a very good player and on his way to a great career.

“Right off the bat, your statement about Wilt is utterly absurd, and displays a complete ignorance of the history of the game, or at least an unwillingness to do some serious research. Geez, talk about making ridiculous claims and not substantiating them!”

Erroneous. I said that in reference to your claims about Howard’s jump shot. FG% is irrelevant. If you want to use FG% as a measure of shooting accuracy… Howard led the league last season at .612. FG% is not only a worthless stat in the first place, but also worthless to this discussion.
Look at Wilt’s career FT%… He wasn’t hitting tons of mid-range Js and stretching the defense.
“he towered over the competition and could overpower most opponents near the basket. His long, high-waisted body made the nickname “Wilt the Stilt” inevitable. Yet Wilt played a finesse game. He liked to score with fadeaway jumpers or with his trademark “dipper” shot — a soft, back-handed finger roll — rather than dunks.”
He wasn’t taking long-range Js. He was operating in the post. Who cares if he preferred finger-rolls or dunks?

“This video demonstrates the fadeaway jumpers, etc., that added to Wilt’s repertoire, especially early in his career:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QmhTWmAaBc”

REALLY???? I’m really trying not to be snarky or whatever, but REALLY??? He doesn’t take a single shot from outside the paint in that entire video. Not a single solitary time. 75-90% of the shots in that video come within a foot of the basket. About 1/2 the shots are dunks. Wilt was an interior force, he didn’t have any range on his J and he didn’t really need it. He couldn’t hit FTs. Sound like someone in today’s game?
Please step it up if you want to call me out.

” Are you seriously going to compare Kendrick Perkins to an “in his prime” Bill Russell?”

Do I think Perkins is one of the best defensive centers of all time? Not really. Never said that. He’s one of the best in the game today. He’s 25 years old. I never once compared him to Bill Russell, but as you say it’s near impossible to compare players across generations. Russell played at a totally different time.

“I could go ahead and do this for others I mentioned above, but you obviously have no interest in moving beyond your own experience. To you, the players from the past were a bunch of stiffs who couldn’t shoot and would be lost in today’s game. You are right, it is a ridiculous conversation to be having, as your lack of knowledge regarding the game’s history prevents you from appreciating players from the past.”

You are on record saying Wilt Chamberlain was a great jump shooter and as evidence provided a video highlight reel in which he took not 1 single jump shot, and I know nothing about the game. I certainly don’t know everything, but I know Wilt was an interior force. I know that at 24 Howard is on his way to being an all-time great NBA center. I know that every player on your list had flaws in his game.

“Regarding your last paragraph, in case you were unaware of this, Ewing, Robinson and Hakeem played in the 1990?s, and Shaq and Duncan played mainly in the 2000?s. In fact, the players I named span every decade since the 50?s. ”

Again, you’re right… Dwight Howard is not great. Even though he’s the best bigman in the game and only 24 he will never go down with Patrick Ewing as a great C. The best bigmen in the league for all 5 decades since the ’50s were great, but somehow things have changed to the point where basketball players are worse and Howard is not going to be an all-time great.
I typed 1980 instead of 1990, clearly I know nothing about basketball because I made a typo…

Right off the bat, your statement about Wilt is utterly absurd, and displays a complete ignorance of the history of the game, or at least an unwillingness to do some serious research. Geez, talk about making ridiculous claims and not substantiating them! Look at his career stats, especially to how the shooting percentages ranked in the league:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html

In a 14 year career, he lead the league in FG% 9 times. That these %’s were low compared to today is about the era, not the players, and it is pretty well established that shooting % stats don’t translate. (Are you going to say next that Jerry West was a poor shooter because he only shot over 50% one year?)

Wilt already had a diversified finesse offensive game at age 24. To quote one source:
“Chamberlain was the first of professional basketball’s dominating seven-footers. At 7’1″, 275 pounds, he towered over the competition and could overpower most opponents near the basket. His long, high-waisted body made the nickname “Wilt the Stilt” inevitable. Yet Wilt played a finesse game. He liked to score with fadeaway jumpers or with his trademark “dipper” shot — a soft, back-handed finger roll — rather than dunks.”

This video demonstrates the fadeaway jumpers, etc., that added to Wilt’s repertoire, especially early in his career:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QmhTWmAaBc

He is mentioned in the wikipedia definition of “fadeaway” along with Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant

Need more? Here’s a statement from a book re: Russell and Chamberlain:

“But now, with Chamberlain in the league, sportswriters were wondering if the Russell Era was coming to an end, if the defensive style of play Russell personified would yield to the singularly muscular offensive style of Wilt Chamberlain, whose fadeaway jump shot was almost impossible to defend against”

Russell himself joked that “in the year Chamberlain averaged 50 points a game (at the ripe old age of 25) he only averaged 38 against us. That would have been the highest scoring average in history at that time.” Consider that the Celts and Phila played each other 12 times that season, and 7 more times in the playoffs, and that Chamberlain averaged 38ppg against arguably the best defensive center of all time. Are you seriously going to compare Kendrick Perkins to an “in his prime” Bill Russell? Do you honestly think that Perkins could have held a 24yo Chamberlain to 3-10 shooting in 2 playoff games? Please.

I could go ahead and do this for others I mentioned above, but you obviously have no interest in moving beyond your own experience. To you, the players from the past were a bunch of stiffs who couldn’t shoot and would be lost in today’s game. You are right, it is a ridiculous conversation to be having, as your lack of knowledge regarding the game’s history prevents you from appreciating players from the past.

Regarding your last paragraph, in case you were unaware of this, Ewing, Robinson and Hakeem played in the 1990′s, and Shaq and Duncan played mainly in the 2000′s. In fact, the players I named span every decade since the 50′s.

The reason I took such a tone is because I felt the same way… How can we have a reasonable discussion with you making ridiculous claims and not substantiating them. You have said that Howard is an offensive liability to the point where he cannot be considered a great C. I strongly disagree.

I responded the way I did because you have literally said that Howard is so limited on offense that he’s a liability to his team and is not on track to be an all-time great. You blamed him for Orlando’s post-season failings when teammates played far, far worse. (Again, Howard cannot make shots or grab rebounds or make stops for others.) You have decided that today’s bigmen are not comparable to yesterday’s with absolutely no objective bases for doing so. I was being ridiculous on purpose to demonstrate my point.

“Kareem, Hakeem, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Moses, and Duncan”

Wilt Chamberlain and Shaq… Neither could/can shoot. Shaq’s D was never dominant.
Bill Russell’s offensive game was very limited.
Ewing was not an efficient scorer for most of his career.

re: championships… Shaq won Championships with Kobe and D Wade. Robinson with Duncan and Duncan with Robinson, Manu, and Parker. Russell had great Celtics teams that continued winning Championships after he retired. Kareem won with Oscar Robertson and Magic. Ewing never won one. Malone won with Julius Erving.
Hedo is not that good. VC is very good, but clearly not Duncan, Robinson, Big O, Magic, Wade, Kobe, or Julius Erving. VC totally dropped the ball in last season’s playoffs, not Howard. Howard had two 30 pt games and 28 pt game against Boston, but I guess Kendrick Perkins totally locked him down. Rashard Lewis is also not an all-time great and also had a poor 09-10 playoff performance.

I believe you are being subjectively biased and yearning for glory days that you have built up to be something they never were. The kid is 24 and you’ve already decided he can’t be great because he hasn’t won a championship by 24 years old when only 3 guys on your list did that, while also playing with HOF all-time greats.

If Miami wins the next 7 Championships and Dwight never gets a supporting cast to compete with them, is that really the only thing you are going to base judging his entire career on? Being on a Championship roster does not mean you were the reason your team won. Never winning a championship does not make you any worse. This is a team sport.

Again, I feel like this is a ridiculous conversation to even be having. You will take every C who played before 1980 and a PF over Howard. I will put Howard right in there with him based on his merits. Fine.

Come on, Ted. How can I have a reasonable discussion with you if your tone devolves to this level? Are you capable of reading my posts completely and without mangling my points beyond recognition? I said flawed and limited, not worthless. I said absolutely nothing that devalues his defense; in fact, I said he will probably be an all-time great defensively. I said that Perkins is a very good post defender, but would not be able to stop Howard if he could hit an open 15 footer (jumper, set shot, banker, or otherwise.).

I did not respond to you by saying, “You are right, Perkins is Ben Wallace, Wilt Chamberlain, and Bill Russell all wrapped in one.” I did not say, “You are right, Dwight Howard is by far the best center of all time, would have averaged 70ppg and 50 rpg in Wilt’s day, and would have 5 rings by now if only he wasn’t playing with D-League scrubs like Rashard Lewis, Vince Carter/Hedo Turkoglu, and Jameer Nelson, as opposet to the multiple HOFers Ewing played with and the horrible competition he played against.”

You know why I didn’t respond that way? Because that wasn’t what you said, or implied. Because I took the time to read your points carefully, and value them, and respectfully disagree with them along certain lines (which is important because we probably agree on more points than we differ on.) Because I can differentiate between a respectable difference of opinion where both parties are using stats to back up their arguments, and a “putting words in your mouth-fest” that clutters up other blogs. I appreciate your extended responses, and would hope that you’d afford me the same courtesy.

Assuming that Howard puts up 7-8 more years with similar stats to this year’s but w/o any championships, I would still prefer Kareem, Hakeem, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Moses, and Duncan (who is really more of a C than a PF) over Howard. I would also take a healthy Bill Walton. If he can expand his offensive game somewhat, I would ultimately place him higher. If he wins multiple championships and is his team’s leader, I would place him higher. For now, I wouldn’t. There are qualities like B-ball IQ, leadership, clutch play/killer instinct, versatility, and the ability to make those around you better players, that Dwight can improve upon. Based on annual stats for an extended period, Wilt is the greatest center of all time, hands down; but many put Russell above him on the list mainly on the basis of championships and intangibles. Who’s right?

You are right, Dwight Howard is a worthless offensive basketball player and did not, in fact, average 19 pts/36 at a TS% of .630 last season. His career numbers are not 17.6 pts/36, .603 TS% and ORB% of 12. His defense is not that valuable. He is clearly worse than all the guys who played before him because that’s how you remember it. Kendrick Perkins is also a worthless defender and could not be as good as the defensive centers from other eras. All great points.

I guess Bill Russell was also not a great center because he wasn’t great offensively. I guess Shaq wasn’t because his defense wasn’t dominant. Who are these mythical top 10 centers who had no holes in their games?

Seriously, multi-dimensional is overrated. Dwight Howard doesn’t have a jumper but he scores a high volume at a high efficiency. His biggest offensive shortcoming are his TOs. Shaq’s jumper was/is only marginally better than Dwight’s and he was/is a terrible FT shooter too, and he is one of the top offensive Cs of all time. Wilt Chamberlain was also a poor shooter… also a top offensive center. Bill Russell wasn’t a good FT shooter. If Dwight played with a premier perimeter player and the same supporting cast, he’d have a couple of rings at 24 years old. It’s not his fault Vince Carter never lived up to his potential in his whole career and fell apart in the playoffs last season. If he played with LeBron, Wade, or Kobe and had 2 rings right now to go with his two DPOYs at 24 years old I bet you’d be calling him an eventual top 10 center in the history of basketball. He’s a dominant defender and a dominant interior scorer. He is the biggest reason his team is in contention for a title year-in-year-out. I would be surprised if he doesn’t go down as a top 10 center of all time. Again, he won’t turn 25 years old until the middle of next season.

Dwight Howard is not a wing player, so it’s hard to compare him straight up to one and say he’s limited offensively. You could say the same about Shaq or most great centers. Which one of those guys did all the things your average wing does?

I would actually say that there is quite a bit of talent among bigmen these days. The game has changed and moved away from lumbering bigs with traditional post-games, but I don’t know that there’s any less talent in the front-court than other eras.