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Wednesday, October 1, 2014

Congratulations to Patrick Ewing, Hall of Famer

As hoped/expected, Patrick Ewing was chosen to be inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame for its 2008 class, along with his longtime nemesis, Hakeem Olajuwon and New York hero/villain, Pat Riley.

Congratulations, Patrick!!

98 comments on “Congratulations to Patrick Ewing, Hall of Famer

  1. TDM

    Congrats to Ewing. It was nice to be reminded of a time when the Knicks were respected in the league, and not the butt of all jokes. Walsh seems interested in getting Ewing, MJ and the other past Knicks involved in the franchise again. I think this is just what the Knicks need. After reading Vecsey’s article today, I’m more open to the idea of bringing MJ back to coach. The article also mentions that Ewing would likely be brought back to tutor NY’s bigs. I’ve been hoping for that for some time now.

  2. WIzzle

    Its pretty ironic that when the Knicks were horrible, Patrick got picked and the rest is history. It would be funny that is becomes part of the catalyst again for a resurgent Knicks franchise if Walsh decides to bring the old Knicks. Even better would be the No. 1 pick!

    Another note, I think the Knicks should bring back all the old guys(debussser, Willis, Clyde, Starks, Patrick, Anthony, Harper, Oakman – anyone see a Ronny Gattison sighting with his numerous 10 day signings?) They could drop some knowledge in the pre-season and during the year to mentor and show the young guys how to carry themselves as a professional and as adult. They can also pass down what it means to be New York Knickerbocker and be part of this storied franchise.

  3. Kikuchiyo

    I want to extend unequivocal congratulations to Patrick, the greatest Knick of the last 30 years and one of the most complete centers we have ever seen.

    I came to the NY area in 1991, and quickly became a Knicks fan because of the passion and commitment of the Knicks’ primary players. (Growing up in Ohio and Michigan, I had been a Pistons fan, a fan of, gulp, Isiah Thomas.) It didn’t hurt that they won so often.

    Anyhow, I never understood the mixed feelings so many New Yorkers had for Patrick–all the negativity, even up to his trade. I’m a lot wiser about New York fans today, but I still don’t understand their need to to poison the conversation with so much abuse. So many fans killed Ewing and Starks and Houston (never Oakley, though, for obvious reasons), but why?

    Yes, they never won it all. But who did in the MJ era? Ask Stockton, Malone, Barkley, etc. Ask yourself if you’d like to see a 1990′s Starks or Houston or Ewing play tomorrow against Charlotte, even in a meaningless game? Of course you would.

    What we all admired in Ewing, I hope, was his effort and his commitment to winning. Sure, he missed some crucial shots, and he was not as mobile as Olajuwon. But he could shoot, post up, rebound, and block shots. Maybe the Isiah era was just a way to remind us how INCREDIBLY VALUABLE a great center really is.

    Let’s bring Patrick back as an assistant and get this franchise on the right track again. There’s a glimmer of hope now….

  4. Spencer

    Congratulations to the Big Fella! Patrick Ewing was a fine player and a great competitor. I’d love to see him on the Knicks’ bench. Maybe as Jax’ assistant??

  5. Frank

    Congrats to Patrick from me as well. I always loved the guy as a player and was sad to see him traded rather than given the right to retire as a Knick.

    By the way, why is Mark Jackson a better coaching candidate than Ewing? Does Jackson have ANY coaching experience at all? I’m not sure, but Wikipedia only had him as an analyst. At least Ewing has been with Van Gundys as an assistant coach. This “coach on the floor” business is somewhat overated in my book.

    I still vote for Thibodeau to be coach. I don’t think we need any buddy-buddy (read: sexual harrassment partners) coach-player relationships any time soon — not that I think Jackson would do harrass any female interns — just that I think there needs to be a little bit of parenting, tough love, and guidance as well as just coaching, and perhaps a former player who has probably gone out on the town with some of these players is maybe not the right guy. Plus, Thibodeau has a proven track record of being a great defensive coach — good defense is still the fastest way to improvement IMHO.

    I say Thibodeau as coach, bring Ewing in as assistant coach possibly being groomed to be head coach someday. In fact, I wouldn’t mind seeing Oakley be an assistant coach too (not sure if he has any interest in that) — after being knocked over by his own 45 year old coach a few times, maybe Curry would toughen up a little.

  6. mase

    “Walsh’s real feelings about the roster came out in this week’s New York Magazine, from an interview before he became a candidate. Referring to the Eddy CurryEddy Curry /Zach Randolph offense, Walsh said, “It’s almost like the Knicks have a team that would have been good eight years ago. Now we’re in the age of high flyers, all these kids shooting up and down the court. The world has changed.”

  7. IMissBernardKing

    I should change my nickname to IMissPatrick. You really appreciate how great he is watching Curry play. His defense, rebounding and intensity really propelled that team and he was a terrific low post scorer too. A night in night out warrior and while not flashy, was truly one of the greats.

  8. Thomas B.

    Congrats to number 33. Missed finger roll against the Pacers aside, what did a Knick fan have to complain with Ewing in the paint. His biggest flaw, aside from the missed finger roll, was that he had to go against Jordan.

    Off topic. We all beat up Thomas for giving up two lottery picks to get Curry. However, I looked at the standing today and saw the Bulls at 30 and 46. I could not help but think that those draft picks have not helped them very much this year. Money aside, would Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah made the Knicks much better than 30 and 46 this year?

  9. dave crockett

    The passage of time has allowed many to see his greatness at both ends of the court. With his career bookended by the likes of “Dream,” David Robinson, Shaq and Duncan it became cliche to take Patrick’s greatness for granted. Ewing most certainly played during an era where others at his position were at least as good, and in many instances better (i.e., Olajuwan, Robinson, Shaq, Duncan). But rather than recognizing the special nature of the era, many who should have known better derided Ewing’s greatness. It always came with caveats, brackets, and the inevitable comparisons to Jordan.

    I think what the passage of time has clarified in Ewing’s case is how much of his greatness was masked by the era in which he played. While Ewing played alongside several all-time greats, you can hardly scrounge up even five halfway decent centers (esp. defensively) who began their careers after Ewing’s ended. Additionally, I think the passage of time has clarified how monumental the load was that Ewing carried. Hardly any former Ewing teammate warrants a mention as even a great player for his era, much less an all-time great.

    For instance, until this season Shaq I’d wager never played on a team with as little talent as the typical Knicks team of the Ewing era. I think it’s safe to say Shaq wouldn’t have handled it with a fraction of the dignity.

  10. villainx

    I don’t feel like there is anything to qualify of the Ewing era. Was a great, great player. Made his teams good to great, and always competitive. And his Knicks team, while not always graceful, but because of the effort and will to compete were very watchable.

  11. Mike O

    “Another note, I think the Knicks should bring back all the old guys”

    I was watching the game the other night and Earl Monroe was shocked to find out the Knicks hadn’t asked Clyde to help the kids with their defense.

  12. Capt. Merlin

    On the topic of tonight’s game vs. the Pistons–Chandler is hitting everything he throws up, even a couple threes, and is looking pretty swell. Any reason why Lee’s riding the pine?

  13. DRed

    We’re killing the pistons. What are we doing? Can’t we even succeed at tanking?

    On the flip side, Chandler looks pretty awesome.

  14. Capt. Merlin

    Also, in about ten minutes of burn, Nate’s managed to pick up four fouls before the half…stellar team we have here

  15. jon abbey

    as far as superstars go, Patrick was always a tough one to love. he was definitely somewhat taken for granted and underappreciated in his years here, by me too. so props to you, Big Man, impressive career even if you never got a ring.

    meanwhile, FUCK ISIAH for winning two games in a row. his final “fuck you” to Knicks fans, I hate him so much more for what he’s done in the last 12 months than for anything before that.

  16. njhoops

    Amen, Jon Abbey, Isiaih is sticking it to the fans, and these 2 wins could be the difference between getting Rose or a #5 or 6 pick. And don’t be surprised if he touts these 2 “important” victories over playoff teams as reason to keep him as coach. In this season of utter despair, our best hope was to lose all of the remaining games, and Isiaah even f—ed that up for us. I hate you, Zeke!

  17. Danis

    Haven’t seen the games here in NZ – but Chandler is putting up some good numbers. Is he looking good or putting them up against teams that aren’t caring as they have all but cemented their spots?

  18. Thomas B.

    “meanwhile, FUCK ISIAH for winning two games in a row. his final “fuck you” to Knicks fans, I hate him so much more for what he’s done in the last 12 months than for anything before that.”

    So, I take it you are upset about the 2 wins?

    You know people are feed up with you when they blame you for the losses AND the wins. Man that is just funny.

  19. justin

    cmon wizzle, what kind of knick fan are you?! dave debusschere is dead and its not oakman, its charles motha fuckin oakley..lol

  20. chase n

    i lost 50 bucks this year because i guaranteed a friend 50 wins from the knicks. Isiah had me sold on the curry/randolph tandem but it hasnt worked out. Time to flush issy out with this shit and usher in the jackson coaching era. He’ll be great because theres no pressure after isaih and walsh will let him coach how he wants. at least 35 wins next year. at LEASt.

  21. o_boogie

    congrats pat. i always appreciated his “fire and desire” to be a winner. he may have never gotten that ring, but i dont fault him for playing during the jordan era and having inferior teammates. we prolly wont see another center like him for another 20 years.

    on another note, jon abbey you are 100% right. isiah is fucking us so bad with these wins its unbelievable. the heat may be tanking and it may be dispicable (spelling?), but the difference is miami will prolly be a contender again within the next 3-4 years.

  22. bfellow

    (thepalerider Said:
    April 8th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
    Anyone read this article on The Knicks and Isiah? It’s rough.

    http://nymag.com/news/sports/45787/)

    Yeah he had the Rocket’s internal scouting report on 4 guys:
    Stephon Marbury: “Tends to go into or under every pick and will leave his feet on shot fakes.”

    Zach Randolph: “Doesn’t work on the defensive end of the floor … slow in transition defense.”

    Eddy Curry: “Gets lost on defensive rotations … labors to get back. He seems to only play hard on the offensive end of the floor.”

    Jamal Crawford: “He allows dribble penetration + doesn’t expend a lot of energy on defense.”

  23. Ted Nelson

    “Money aside, would Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah made the Knicks much better than 30 and 46 this year?”

    First, there’s not much chance that without the Curry trade the Knicks would have wound up with the exact same picks and taken the exact same players that the Bulls did. This means that you could also be asking if Brandon Roy and Thaddeus Young or LaMarcus Alridge and Rodney Stuckey or Adam Morrison and Acie Law would make the Knicks better than 30 and 46.

    These things aside, the Bulls are the NBA’s #11 defense, while their offense is worse than the Knicks’. A couple of promising interior defenders might have helped the Knicks big time. I would say that maybe these guy’s offense would hurt the Knicks, but they’re 25th in the league offensively this season so they don’t have far to go.

    Let’s just say that I’d take those two over Curry any day.

    “For those who doubt Isiah’s eye for drafting talented players, I present to you Wilson Chandler.
    David Lee, Nate Robinson, Renaldo Balkman, and Wilson Chandler were all fine picks. I mean, who had even heard of Chandler when we drafted him?
    I hope that Walsh finds a way to keep Thomas as a lead scout or director of player development. Somehing that keeps him away from the bench and the trade phones.”

    I don’t think the issue is whether Isiah has a good eye for drafting players. The issues here is that I wouldn’t let Isiah anywhere near a leadership position in my front office.

    Furthermore, as I recall, the last discussion on the topic focused around a few people saying that Isiah is the best drafter in the league and a few others saying that he’s good but not necessarily the best. I mean how many GMs are able to hold their job long enough to be involved with 8 teams who finish in the bottom 10 in the league in 9 seasons? Elgin Baylor is about the only one who comes to mind, maybe Bernie Bickerstaff. With the 4 top 10 picks he’s kept/lasted for Isiah has landed T-Mac, Camby, Stoudamire, and Frye.

    I agree that his late first round picks have been pretty impressive; although, I think it’s a bit early to judge them. Chandler had one great game and has been in the rotation for one of the NBA’s worst teams, some of the guys behind him haven’t gotten a chance to play. In fact, neither Rudy Fernandez nor Tiago Splitter has left the Spanish League. One great game doesn’t make a career, when Chandler has more games like that under his belt than 1 for 9 performances might be a better time to examine what kind of a pick he was. Although I love Balkman, right now is a hard time to defend Thomas’ 2006 draft: Balkman went ahead of Rondo, Williams, Farmar, Lowry, Sergio Rodriguez, and Daniel Gibson and everyone pretty much agrees that Knicks need a PG desperately. The PG he did take is a flop. Nate I also like a lot, but it’s not like there was no talent on the board: Jarrett Jack, Francisco Garcia, Luther Head, Jason Maxiell, and Linas Klieza represent 5 of the next six picks (Johan Petro is the one I left out). Ariza is a guy who’d further help your case.

  24. W.C.

    Ted,

    You keep avoiding the fact that judging talent is more than just drafting.

    As I said in another thread, financial experts sometimes do an experiment with chimpanzees and the stock market. They pit the best stock market gurus against a few chimps with a dart board to see who will do better FOR THE YEAR. A few of the chimps invariably more than hold their own in a single year. But no one would argue that they understand what’s going on as well as the experts and will do as well over the long haul.

    What that tells us is that in the “SHORT TERM” there is a lot of luck and randomness in some results.

    Drafting literally is like a lottery to some degree.

    There are going to be some people with great drafting records that have little or no skill at finding talent and others with incredible skill that will have poor records. However, after 20-30 years, the cream will rise to the top and the rest will fall by the wayside.

    It’s is my contention that if you look at a GM’s record with drafting AND TRADES, it gives you a much larger sample with which to judge his ability to recognize talent and other aspects of player ability that lead to NBA success than looking at drafts alone where the sample is very small.

    First, leave out the finacial aspects of all Knicks trades and free agent signings. That’s an entirely different skill.

    Judge who got the better player(s) in a trade, how well the players fit the needs of team, how well the players fit in with the other players, whether the signing of a free agent made the Knicks better and met the goal etc…

    Add that to the drafting record and I think you have a basis for judging a GM’s ability to judge talent etc… much quicker than just looking at a dozen drafts or so that could easily be the result of good or bad LUCK.

    I believe if you evaluate Isiah in that light, you come to a much different conclusion about his ability to judge talent and the intangibles of ability that make a successful NBA player.

  25. bfellow

    I wouldn’t calling Balkman a solid pick when Isiah could have drafted him lower in the 1st round instead of Mardy Collins. They passed up Rajon Rondo, Marcus Williams, and Jordan Farmar

    As for the Channing Frye pick over Andrew Bynum now looks bad due to how the game has become more fast-paced, and teams are looking for quick 7 footers like Amare and Dwight Howard who are dominating the court. The good thing was Frye and Steve Francis resulted into Zach Randolph.

    Nate Robinson was drafted by Phoenix and he was traded with Quentin Richardson for Kurt Thomas. I’m sure Kurt Thomas would have kept the Knicks interior defense from being soft and Quentin would never would be jacking 3′s in New York.

    David Lee and Wilson Chandler are definitely solid picks.

  26. Ted Nelson

    W.C.,

    I don’t think I’m avoiding that fact at all. In fact, I think I mentioned it in a previous thread. Thomas B.’s post I was responding to specifically addressed: “those who doubt Isiah’s eye for drafting talented players.” Not his eye for talent evaluation.

    Others have made the same point as you: drafting is not the only component of talent evaluation. (Logically you would assume that evaluating the talent of players already seeing heavy minutes in the league is easier than evaluating amateurs or those playing in other professional leagues, but Isiah Thomas has proven this is not necessarily true.)

    “There are going to be some people with great drafting records that have little or no skill at finding talent and others with incredible skill that will have poor records. However, after 20-30 years, the cream will rise to the top and the rest will fall by the wayside.”

    I don’t totally disagree, there is luck involved (still, it’s hard to argue that someone whose found talent has “no skill at finding talent”). This is especially true because you have so many experts opinions to consider as an NBA exec. You can simply look at a mock draft and ask your top scouts or coaches…

    I would, however, say that after, I don’t know, 5 years (implying an average of roughly 10 picks) a patterns generally starts to emerge as far as how good a drafter someone is (for example, it’s not like Isiah picked Balkman or Chandler’s because he was the top remaining guy according to the popular consensus, the fact that he reached and ended up with two decent to good picks seems to bode well for his drafting abilty; although, he might have gone with the consensus pick and had more luck which supports your point). Certainly it’s not black/white, good drafter/bad drafter, and everyone’s going to get lucky/unlucky (I mean how much “skill” did it take to win the lottery and pick LeBron or Duncan? It would have taken a special kind of incompetence to have passed them up).

    I would argue that a lot of the “luck” involved has to do with attitude: to simplify, how hard a player will work and whether he puts the team/winning first. Then, of course, there’s also helping the guys you draft develop.

    Finally, I’d say that there are some skills common to drafting, trades, and free agency, but there are also various skills specific to one or two of the three.
    For one example, to say that trades are only about talent evaluation is silly. Did the Grizz really think they were getting equal talent for Gasol? No, they considered other issues, specifically the opportunity cost of having Gasol on their roster.
    Drafting is also somewhat unique in that you’re looking at guys with zero NBA experience (which can also be the case in free agency or trades, but not the rule in those cases).

    bfellow,

    “The good thing was Frye and Steve Francis resulted into Zach Randolph.”

    I’d call that the worst possible thing.

  27. Thomas B.

    Ted Nelson,

    “Furthermore, as I recall, the last discussion on the topic focused around a few people saying that Isiah is the best drafter in the league and a few others saying that he’s good but not necessarily the best.”

    Agreed. I don’t think he is the best every but he is well above average especially when you look at the late first rounders taken.

    On Wilson Chandler: I agree one game does not make a career. But Chandler has shown some very good potential. He seems to have the ability to score, defend, and run the floor. Any GM that can find that sort of triple threat in the last 10 picks of the first round is doing something right. It is way to early to name Chandler to an all anything team, but he has shown that he can be a solid NBA player.

    On Curry v Thomas and Noah. Agreed that we would be better with Noah and Thomas (not that we are sure the picks would have been those two guys). At a minimum the rookie scale contracts give us more flexability than the Curry deal does. Curry’s deal makes it harder to clear space to get a LBJ or Bosh. Also, Ted Nelson makes a good point in that defense is the biggest problem for the Knicks. Either Thomas, Noah, or Aldridge, ect could have helped the Knicks’ defense. Those guys are all better rebounders and shot blockers than Curry.
    ————————–
    W.C.,

    You make some very good points even the best GM needs a little luck when drafting. Look how lucky GS was getting Sprewell at 24. Dallas taking Josh Howard at 30. New York taking Lee at 30. But I think your point is that luck alone will not save you. Over ten years of picks, your ability as a drafter will be clear. Well I think Isiah’s years of drafting show that he has a great eye for talent. I would like that to stay with the team because if we are serious about rebuilding, we need to find the best young players and develop them. I think we need to follow the Orlando Magic’s approach. Develop good young players in the draft (Howard, Nelson) support those players would good value free agents, then find the right big money game changer (I do not think of Lewis as a big money game changer but he was the best available to the Magic). The Knicks will likely have a pick between 3-6 we cant afford to messs that up since we now owe a pick to Utah.

  28. Owen

    I think I am holding back on Wilson Chandler. He currently has a 47.4% ts% and a very poor +/-. He was great last game, and he does play defense, but in my book he hasn’t yet proved he is a rotation level NBA player. His utter fearlessness in taking shots and his emphatic swats are what define him so far, which isn’t too much to go on…

  29. Pete

    A great eye for talent regarding the draft would seem to imply that those players chosen should comprise better than a 22 win team. Of course, without a real coach it is hard to blame them for the record.

  30. Alec

    Regarding the drafting prowess of IT, we often forget the Balkman wasn’t on anyone’s radar. Chances are he wasn’t even going to be drafted. So, the Knicks should have signed him as a free agent and used that pick on someone else.

    How is Frye a good pick? He is playing behind Joel Prizbila, right? Collins = the new Rick Brunson.

    Chandler…really? Great pick? Good pick? The ultimate goal of an NBA is to win a championship and I don’t see Chandler doing that anytime soon if ever. Robinson? Would he be a starter on any good team? He is a turnover waiting to happen, but still I like his energy. He is alive I think and I can’t say that about some other Knicks

    We as fans are so quick to jump on “he’s a rookie with so much potential” bandwagon. Darius Miles, who IT loves, has a lot of potential. Let’s get him too!

    JA Adande said on ESPN that teams should throw games. Look at the Heat, they had a fire sale by trading Shaq, not trading J Williams or Rick Davis because their contracts were going to expire. They could have gotten some real value for those two, but they held off and are going to get better through the draft. The Knicks could have/should have used this same tactic years ago. Now we are stuck with this over paid roster.

  31. TDM

    “tdm Said:
    April 2nd, 2008 at 11:37 am
    I’m not sure how I feel about the early announcement. On the one hand, the players may send their tanking efforts into overdrive to send a message that they too want IT gone. On the other hand, they could be relieved that change in management is finally around the corner and bang out 3 wins in a row. Why aren’t the Knicks waiting until the season is over for the announcement? I think it should be made 5 minutes after the final home game.”

    Looks like I jinxed them. My bad. Apologies to everyone on the board.

  32. Ray

    LEave Chandler alone…..hes just now getting playing time. LEt the kid develop. What you see now is now…think of what he could be with more discipline and practice. Hes going to be a quality guy.

  33. Thomas B.

    Alec,

    You can not evaluate Thomas’ drafting skill in a vacuum. You look at Chandler and say he cant win a championship anytime soon? What does that mean? What does that have to do with the draft?

    First, one player does not win a title, teams win titles. By your logic Ewing, Barkley, Malone, Stockman, Hill, Kidd, and Nash are poor draft picks as they have not won a title. Scott Williams has three rings was he a great draft pick?

    Second, you need to evaluate Thomas’ picks against the picks made in the same draft. You say you would have taken someone other than Balkman because he would have gone undrafted and could have been signed as a free agent. Forgive me but that is just crazy. Look at the players taken after Balkman, how many of them are clearly better than Renaldo so far? I would say only Paul Millsap (47th pick) is playing significantly better than Balkman. Marcus Williams and Jordan Farmar are in the mix but not heads above Balkman. BTW, two draft scouting sites I.D.ed Balkman as a draft camp standout on defense, hussle, and rebounding. My point, he would have still been drafted. Third, look at the players taken BEFORE Balkman. I think Sacto would swap Douby for Balkman right now. Ditto Orlando with JJ Redick, Seattle with Sere Sene. Hell have Shelden Williams or Adam Morrison been better than Balkman!?

    Thomas has drafted a defensive POY (Camby) a rookie of the year (Stoudamire) a two time scoring champ (T- Mac). How poorly have the Raptors drafted in the years since Thomas left? Feast (Bosh, Petterson) or famine (Arouja, or as I call him Kwame light, Kareem Rush, M Bradley).

    For that matter, what player of merit was drafted in the four years before Thomas came to NY? Hey Mr. Layden, what have you given us?

    Scott: “Oh, well I traded both of the 2001 picks for Othella Harrington and Mark Jackson. But I got Michael Wright of Arizona and center Eric Chenowith of Kansas with the two 2nd rounders I kept (those guys are way better than Balkman). In 2002 I drafted Nene, then traded him and Camby for a guy playing on one leg. In 2003 I got Mike “Hot plate” Sweetney. He ate his way out of the NBA. Oh and Frank Williams. He is still playing, pick up games at the Y, but I hear he pwnz the rec league.” Compared to Layden, Thomas is a draft GOD!!

    Good night everybody!

  34. IMissBernardKing

    good time for a 3 game winning streak. just in time to blow the draft. sometimes I just cant stand this team any more.

  35. ari

    they are now almost locked into the fifth lottery spot, which is gives them an 8.8% chance of getting the first pick, and a 19.7% of getting ANY top two pick and only a 29.1% of getting ANY top 3 pick…..before this winning streak, they were at “worst” in the three spot, with a good chance at the 2 spot…. the wo spot has a 55.8% of getting ANY top two pick…., Miami will have a %64.3 of getting ANY top two pick…..as always, a dreadful job by the knicks, I mean really

  36. jon abbey

    “they are now almost locked into the fifth lottery spot”

    no, even worse, they’re fucking tied with the Clippers for fifth/sixth. this last three games has been by far the low point of the year for me, just ridiculous.

    “before this winning streak, they were at “worst” in the three spot, with a good chance at the 2 spot”

    this also isn’t close to true, they never had much of a chance at #2 (Seattle is five wins behind them), and would have been lucky to end up third. if they had lost all three, right now they’d be in 4th instead of tied for 5th/6th.

  37. americanbear

    I agree, this winning streak is maddening. It is also reflected in how little people are posting.

  38. Alec

    I’m glad Thomas drafted all those big names for Toronto, because everyone he has taken in NY will not ever turn into T Mac or Marcus Camby. All those players he drafted have gone where in the playoffs? Camby made it to the finals with NY, Damon was part of the Jailblazers, and T Mac cant make it out of the first round. Sound draft picks.

    Don’t get me wrong, I like David Lee and Balkman. But Balkman as a first rounder is silly, when he could have gone in the second or even undrafted. Moreover, look at the roster at that point. A log game of Q and Jeffries at the 3. But lets take another one, when we need a shot blocker and PG. Two holes that still havent been filled. Thanks IT.

    On Chandler…lets not jump to comclusions is all I’m saying. We, as Knick fans, look at him as the future and I don’t think he is. We always overhype our young players. I bet some one on this blog praised Fredrick Weis or Sweetney as the next Ewing.

    Just slow down on our judgement that proclaims Chandler as a sound player, because if you put him on almost any other team, he woundnt be any rotation, hell he wasnt even in our rotation until we started tanking it…which has backfired. Thanks Thomas

  39. Frank O.

    I’ve been in the process of buying a home, getting ready for a vacation next week and working at a new job…things are going well.
    Then I look at the paper this morning to see the Knicks have won three straight.

    Isiah, once again, is trying to save his job by winning at the cost of the team.
    Classic.
    Can’t wait for him to be fired.

  40. Thomas B.

    Alec,
    We don’t need the Knick young players to be Camby or T-Mac. We need them to be Bruce Bowen, Derek Fisher, Udonis Haslem. When you are talking about mid level draft picks you are not going to get a superstar. But if you pick the right players and develop them you get the sort of supporting cast that is required to build a champion. That is what you said the ultimate goal for an organization is, a title. Will Robinson, Lee, Chandler, or Balkman make All-NBA? No. The majority of mid to late first rounders don’t. But they CAN become valuable assets to a championship caliber team. If you get a good productive player that can improve over his career with a pick higher than 20, then you have done a great job. Thomas has done that. Given the picks Thomas had to work with in NY, I’m ignoring the two picks he traded because that speaks to Thomas the GM (terrible) not Thomas the draft guru (awesome), he has done a spectacular job. I say that because most of his picks have been better than the players taken ahead of them and much better than the players taken after. That means Thomas found the best player available. When you can do that on a consistent basis it shows your great eye for talent.

    Alec if Balkman is not a first rounder, please find me 10 players selected after Balkman who have better numbers/contributions. Balkman was the 20th pick, so ten guys ahead of him would knock him into the 2nd round. There are a total of 40 players taken after Balkman in the 2006 draft. Of that 40, you need only find 10. I have only one ground rule, you need to pick a player that has played no less than 48 minutes of NBA ball over his career. That is a total of ONE game. Find me ten players taken after Balkman that have played at least 48 minutes AND put up numbers/contributions even close to Balkman.
    —–

    The Knicks never had a shot at finishing with the 2nd worst record. The Sonics would have had to win 4 of their last six (before the Knicks’ current streak) to pass the Knicks in the win column. No way would that have happened. The Knicks had an excellent chance of being fourth since Memphis was ahead of them. The Knicks had a fair chance at third if the won 1 game of the last 7 and Minny won 3 of the last 7. But Ny never had a real shot a 2nd worst record. But we have blown any chance at third or fourth now. The only consolation is that the Bucks and the Blazers won in recent years after finishing out of the bottom 5. Maybe we get lucky.

  41. Alec

    First, I agree that you need a supporting cast to win a championship and that Balkman may be that one day. I love the players you mentioned like Fisher, Haslem, and Bowen. But is Nate Robinson or Collins will never be any of those. Balkman may one day transform in a Bowen type player, and Lee into a Haslem, but they each have a lot of work to do offensively.

    You asked me to find 10 players that were drafted after him and have contributed like him. First, I’d like to say that anyone on the Knicks drafted would be playing on this team, but I will list 10 anyway. The first few are all contributers on GOOD teams. Rajon Rondo, Booby Gibson, Paul Millsap, and Leon Powe. After those guys, Craig Smith is a starter on Minn, Jordan Farmar gets good minutes, Josh Boone (free throw shooting aside) starts, Marcus Williams plays, and Kyle Lowry looks good when he isnt hurt.

    Thomas could have easily taken a true point guard and still drafted Balkman the 29th pick (Collins)

  42. Derek

    The Knicks are so bad that they even suck at tanking. 3 in a row. Are you kidding me? Walsh’s first move should have been to make sure that they don’t win another game.

  43. Thomas B.

    Alec,

    Good points all around. (Craig Smith @ Minny? For the record, Krusty the Clown could start for Minny.) And yes, marcus Williams would be a starter, I mean if Collins can do it, why not Williams? I buy maybe 6-7 of the ten you listed. I say that if teams knew then what they know now, no way Balkman goes past 30.

    I think Chandler has the best potential to be a Bruce Bowen type because he has range on the jumper and has shown some ability as a defender. Balkman’s jumper, which has shown little to no improvement over two seasons holds him back. Robinson is no Fisher, true. But he could play a (forgive me for this because its a reach) a Vinnie Johnson role on a championship team. Sort of an instant offense reserve? Ok, I’m not even sure I buy that yet.

    Yes, the Knicks need a point and I admit on draft night 2006 my jaw hit the floor when Thomas took Balkman while Marcus Williams was on the board. Because as you said, he could have taken Balkman with the 2nd first rounder and gotten Williams at 20.

    After watching two years of Williams, I’m not sure he will be good enough to be the starting point of a championship team. He could be a good reserve. However, when you think about the reserves of a champion team, the reserve forwards play a bigger role than the reserve point does. On most top tier team the starting point plays 38-40 minutes. I think Balkman as a reserve forward is a better fit than Williams as a reserve point because Balkman can defend three positions and he rebounds very well. Let’s say you put Balkman on the Celtics behind forwards KG and PP, and you put Williams behind Nash on the Suns. Which player do you think will get more minutes? I say Balkman because he can back up two position (he can play spot duty at PF) and defend three positions. Plus since forwards tend to pick up more fouls than gaurds, Balkman can save KG and PP a few fouls. Williams will be hard pressed to earn many minutes behind Nash.

  44. ess-dog

    Shit, I thought one win was harmless, but WTF??? 3 in a row? That’s crazy. They need to sit Jamal and Zach. Does this mean we could draft as low as 9 now? That’s a much different player than at 4 or 5.
    Don’t y’all think Stern will rigg it for us this year anyway?

  45. Ted Nelson

    There are certainly some players taken behind Balkman who’ve been as good or better thus far, especially since he’s taken a step back this season. After 5-10 years it would make more sense to examine this issue.

    Alec,

    You can’t say that Isiah could have “easily” waited to take Balkman at 29 unless you can read the minds of everyone with the final say on the picks between 20 and 29, as well as anyone who might have traded for Phoenix’s pick. It seems possible to likely, but it’s hard to say. Balkman was on people’s radar and it’s hard to say he wouldn’t have been at least a 2nd rounder.

  46. IMissBernardKing

    Its time to give Randolph Morris and Mardy Collins extended PT to see “what they have” for next year. btw, thats more than acceptable and not even really technically tanking. You have to see what your young players have and they deserve a chance to play right now. The product will be that the team is likely to lose, but again, its not like anyone is doing anything untoward.

    Im so frustrated that the team has decided to pick THIS MOMENT to have a 3 game losing streak. I watched the end of the game yesterday and it seemed the fans were rooting for Charlotte and then booed when the Knicks won at the end. Dont the players get it?

    Sure, as an athlete, you play to compete and win. But its managements job to make sure they dont.

    Getting the 6th pick will be a disaster because the Clippers have similar needs to the Knicks and are likely to take a player we need. they have holes at PG too and will not let an OJ Mayo pass them by at number 5, especially since he is a hometown boy.

    Although the good thing is that the Knicks will end up with whichever of the top 6 fall into their laps, so they wouldnt really have a decision to make. The top picks are Rose, Beasley, Love, Bayless, Gordon and Lopez.

    If, say, Lopez fell into their laps at the 6th pick that would be fine by me. But we really need a top guard. Has anyone seen Bayless and Gordon play? are these guys superstar material?

  47. jon abbey

    if we end up with the 6th record, we easily could drop to 7th or 8th. that’s the real problem with this pointless and idiotic winning streak.

  48. Thomas B.

    On espn.com’s daily dime:

    “WEDNESDAY’S WORST
    Streaking Knicks: In a perfect example of too little, too late, the Knicks beat the Bobcats, 109-107, to match their season-best win streak of three games. With new president Donnie Walsh attending his first game, New York had six players score in double digits. Coach Isiah Thomas is probably wondering what took so long for his team to start playing its best ball.”

    Jon, are you writing the Daily Dime now? This sounds like you.

  49. ari

    if the knicks fall into a sixth spot it’s, again,so stupid…the team is so foolish it’s amazing. if you look at how the lottery works it’s a big myth that “it doesn’t really matter where you are, it’s all random” – having the worst record possible also protects you from dropping too far in the lottery – so, for example, if you have the third worse record, you can’t drop further than sixth, the second, you can’t drop further than fifth, etc – you can’t drop furhter than three spots……the “lottery” is only for the first three spots, everything esle is then in order by record of who’s left standing…so by falling to sixth, it’s concievable that the Knicks could be picking ninth in a very top heavy draft, where most experts think the real impact players stop at Beasly, Rose, Mayo and maybe Jared Bayless and Brook Lopez. So that’s five, and it’s not in their favor, not even close, that the knicks will pick in the top 3. another year, most certainly, TOTALLY WASTED….

  50. Thomas B.

    Best case at this point is the knicks lose the next 3, Memphis beats Miami and Minny, Clippers steal a game. That gives Knicks a tie with Memphis for fourth with LAC at 6

  51. jon abbey

    by the way, this winning streak is somewhat on Walsh. if nothing else, he should have had a sitdown with Isiah already and explained to him very specifically what was best for the franchise, and that winning games at this point would not reflect well on him.

  52. ari

    from Chad Ford’s ESPN chat today:

    Chris (Staten Island, NY): Are these last few wins by the Knicks Isaiah’s last dagger into the heart of Knick fans, essentially screwing up the lottery. This team can’t even get losing right!

    Chad Ford: (1:12 PM ET ) Yeah … I’ve been thinking the same thing. They’ve had a shot at moving into the 4th position in the draft … maybe even the third. So what do they do … they start winning. Ugh. Derrick Rose could really save the franchise. I’m not sure there’s anyone else in the draft (if you’re picking 5th or 6th) that you could say that about. I think they hired Donnie Walsh a few weeks too late.

  53. W.C.

    >>Thomas has done that. Given the picks Thomas had to work with in NY, I’m ignoring the two picks he traded because that speaks to Thomas the GM (terrible) not Thomas the draft guru (awesome), he has done a spectacular job.<<

    You still don’t get it.

    Someone that is a good judge of talent would not have traded away 2 first round draft picks for Curry.

    The draft is a small sample. Small samples are not statisticially significant. You need to broaden the analysis.

    It’s fair to say that “Isiah the GM” made a mistake in being willing to pay Curry so much money (that had nothing to do with judging talent). But there is little difference between drafting and saying you are willing to give up two 1st rounders to get Curry.

    There are other moves he’s made that are equally revealing about his ability (or lack there of) in judging talent.

  54. Thomas B.

    W.C.,

    Thanks, but I think you do not get it. :-)

    It was never my intent to paint Thomas as anything other than a strong drafter. His eye for talent is limited to the draft. Clearly a man who knows talent would have noticed that Curry does not rebound or block shots. He would have noticed that Randolph’s skill set is not a good match to play with Curry. Ditto Francis with Marbury. He would have realized that David Lee should have been playing 36 per from the first game of this season (as a starter), and Balkman should have been a key reserve (20 minutes a game). Jerome James should be bagging groceries. Jerry West and Mike Colangelo would not have made those moves.

    So now that we are clear that I am ONLY talking about the draft, I will address the rest of your post.

    The ability to draft a talented player has little to nothing to do with trades. Thomas did not draft the player then trade him. He traded future picks. That speaks to Thomas the GM, whom I am on records as calling terrible, and his ability to value trade assets. At the time of the trade, nobody thought the Knicks would lose 59 games and be a lottery team. As much as we bemoan Curry, the trade would hurt much less if we had given up the 18th pick in the 2005 draft instead of the 2nd. I think most GMs would have traded Danny Granger for Curry in 2005. We also bemoan Curry’s deal, which again is the failing of Thomas the GM not Thomas the drafter.

    All I am saying is that Thomas, whom I think we can credit with selecting three players for Toronto and six for NY, has done well with the nine players he picked. The three Toronto picks are without question great picks. There is some debate on the NY picks, you could question Frye over Bynum. There is an on going debate between Alec and I over Balkman. Most people are down on Collins this year, but are there more than five players taken after Collins that have been that much better (Milsap and Gibson come to mind)? Chandler is too inexperienced to rate just yet, but i like what i have seen. Who can argue with Lee at 30? Robinson is very talented, his issue is his ego.

    You have to lower your expectations when drafting in the bottom 1/3 of the draft. If you find a solid role player bewteen 20-30, you did a great job. Thomas has done that.

    All I am saying is that Thomas did well with the picks he had in hand. He doesnt trade well and he does not build well, but he is a great drafter.

  55. Thomas B.

    “I would have been way harsher. SO STUPID.”

    Amen. Let’s just keep our fingers crossed that the ping pongs bounce our way. It would be awful to fall to 9th in this draft. As much as I want Derrick Rose on the team, I think Mayo, Bayless, and Gordon have the potential to be solid starting points. But we cant get any of those guys at 9.

  56. Thomas B.

    Frank Asshola sucker punches Thomas again.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/2008/04/10/2008-04-10_isiah_slams_knicks_teams_of_1990s.html

    Thomas won two titles with Detroit. When he says “nothing to be pround of” he means that there is no title, no parade, no banner, no trophy, to share with the fans. He was never saying the Ewing, Oakley, Starks teams of the 90′s were bums as Asshola tried to do. What a jerk.

    Thomas has a point. I am pleased the teams made it to the playoffs but I am not proud of John Starks’ performance in game 7 against Houston, I am not proud of Charles Smith game 5 against the Bulls, and I am not proud of Charlie Ward’s bone head move against the Heat that cost the Knicks a shot at the finals.

    Thomas is right. It has been so long since when raised a title banner that we have confused good hard working teams with a title holder. They simply are not the same thing. And Thomas would know that becuase he was on two title teams. And those teams were good before they won the titles. It was the titles that took them from a nice team to a team to be proud of. It guys like Asshola that make me cringe when I click on the sports section.

  57. Funky

    I know it’s a weird way to look at it, but I consider Bynum’s emergence to actually be a favorable thing for Isiah when one assesses his drafting skills. I remember at the time that Bynum was considered a major reach with the seventh pick by most of the draft gurus, but there were widespread reports that Thomas would pick Bynum if Frye was not available. I remember thinking that it would be terrible if Frye wasn’t unavailable if we picked a guy who was all about potential and no where near ready to contribute to a basketball team. In fact, a lot of people thought that Bynum was a reach even when the Lakers picked him several picks later.

    That said, I still want Isiah out of the organization. He’s terrible at everything that outside of the draft.

  58. W.C.

    >>Thanks, but I think you do not get it. :-)<<

    We are going to have to agree to disagree because it’s pretty clear you still don’t understand the points I am making. ;-)

    There are two points.

    1. Isiah’s draft record is too short to be statistically significant. Saying his good drafting record confirms his talent is approximately equal to saying that because a coin came up heads 7 out of 10 times that means it is biased. It’s almost silly. You’d have to flip the coin hundreds of times before you’d know what kind of coin you were dealing with. The same is true when evaluating drafting skill. You need a very long term record. So even though Isiah’s draft record may be excellent so far we don’t know if it’s an indication of luck or talent.

    2. IMO, anyone with any ability to recognize talent at all would never have made many of the other moves that Isiah made regardless of whether he was wearing his GM hat or drafting hat. That’s why I was so clear to say to exclude monetary and other considerations that motivated some of the moves.

    For example, Isiah thought Curry was a franchise player. It doesn’t matter what he paid him or that he thought the two first round picks wouldn’t be so valuable etc… If Curry was available via draft (a theoretical scenario), Isiah would have passed on a lot of better players to get Curry. He mis-evaluated his talent enormously and that is telling us something about his ability to judge college talent also. That lack of skill would translate into his draft results over time.

    There are numerous examples like that.

    We just haven’t seen it yet to a large degree in his draft results because the sample size is too small. He’s been lucky. But I can assure you if he was/is given drafting powers here or elsewhere, he is going to make some huge drafting mistakes and his long term record is going to slowly look worse and worse.

  59. TDM

    Given the Knicks 3-game win streak, Walsh may as well drop the axe on IT now. The only reason I didn’t think he should do it sooner was because it might boost the moral of the squad with the end result being getting moral victories at the expense of ping pong balls.

  60. villainx

    “We just haven’t seen it yet to a large degree in his draft results because the sample size is too small. He’s been lucky. But I can assure you if he was/is given drafting powers here or elsewhere, he is going to make some huge drafting mistakes and his long term record is going to slowly look worse and worse.”

    I side with TB argument that IT has drafted enough to be above average. Or IT has drafted enough to say it’s not all luck. I mean, how many drafts would it have to be to draw some glimpse of thumbs up/down on his drafting skills?

    Though I guess it’s fine with me too if you want to indict every aspect of IT’s ability. I could live without Lee, Balkman, Nate, & Chandler and whatever random player in their place if it meant IT never ever was GM.

  61. jrock

    i’m sure that walsh probably thought keeping isiah around till the end of the season would ensure the maximum possible amount of losses. what he didn’t count on was isiah’s own spite.

  62. T-Mart

    If the Knicks win another game this season, then Walsh definitely should be held accountable from our perception, for whatever its worth. He should have either 1) immediately fired Isiah from his coaching position at the very least or 2)sternly explain that if he is interested in hanging on to the .0001% chance he has of retaining the coaching position, that the Knicks will not win another game this season because Mardy Collins, Malik Rose, Jared Jefferies, and Jerome James will play 40+ minutes a game from now on

    Since he obviously did not execute on either of those ideas, I say Walsh’s tenure as GM of the Knicks has already begun with a huge black eye. This is COMPLETELY unacceptable.

  63. T-Mart

    My mistake, there’s clearly no way Jerome James would be able to make it 40+ minutes without either fouling out or going into type 2 diabetic induced shock from being on the court for so long without unencumbered access to unlimited sugary snacks of all varities. Substitute Randloph Morris if necessary. Hopefully these instructions are Isiah-proof. hah yeah right

  64. Thomas B.

    W.C.

    No, I guess I dont understand, so let me ask a few things.

    “Isiah’s draft record is too short to be statistically significant.”
    How many picks do you need to make to be significant? Thomas has made 10 by my count. He has 8 years as a GM. So what, we have to wait until he has done this twenty times? Most GMs that make that many picks have to be good to stay employed that long (except Elgin Baylor). What is the average tenure of a NBA GM? Does anyone know?

    We can just agree to respectfully disagree because I don’t think you get lucky 7 times out of nine. I like the coin analogy but it is slighty out of place here because the draft has far too many variables to be condensed into a 50/50 example as you did with the coin flip. If the draft had an equal number of busts as it did stars and Thomas picked in the same place every year, then maybe he could get heads 7 out of 10 times. But the draft is not a coin flip. Well more than half the players drafted are out of the NBA in 2 years, and that is just amoung the ones that make the team after they get drafted. If anything, the odds are against you in the draft. When the odds are against you and you still win 7 out of 10 that is not luck, that is skill.

    “IMO, anyone with any ability to recognize talent at all would never have made many of the other moves that Isiah made regardless of whether he was wearing his GM hat or drafting hat.”

    I undestand your argument to be: No person with an eye for talent would have signed Jerome James or traded two picks for Curry. So those mistakes mean that Thomas got lucky in the draft. Is that right?

    Look, I could just as easily point to that and say, “Thomas’ drafting successes prove his eye for talent, the trade and signing mistakes were just bad luck.” I could say that but I would be hunted down by my fellow posters, so I wont.

    That brings up an interesting question. Has Thomas made any trade or signing as Knick GM that the fans would not undo if they had a time machine?

    Keep or call a mulligan? (incoming players listed)

    Marbury trade.
    Crawford trade.
    Curry trade.
    Francis trade.
    Randolph trade
    Mohamed trade.
    Jalen Rose trade.
    Malik Rose trade.
    Richardson trade.
    Tim Thomas trade.
    Jerome James signing.
    Jared Jeffries signing.

    Any move that did not bring back a draft pick should be done over. Other than JC, none of that list came here and played to expectations.

    You know W.C. now that I take a good look at the total pile of junk listed above, I think I do see your point. It is hard to defend the “eye for talent” with that resume. Okay, I see your point but I still think he is a good drafter.

  65. ari

    clippers lost, so now we are probably locked into the sixth spot – congrats isiah….it’s amazing how every team, even the Clippers, are just so much smarter than the knicks

  66. Alec

    Per Ari, the Knicks have the 6th pick. Lets assume the system works and every team gets the pick the they are supose to have. My draftboard goes…

    Miami Heat – Beasley
    OKC Sonics – Rose
    Minnesota Wolves – Jared Bayless
    Memphis Grizzles – Brook Lopez
    LA Clippers – OJ Mayo
    NY Knicks – Danilo Gallinari?

    Go head everybody…kill me. Ridicule me to the point where I move to South Jersey and become a Philly fan.

    I just dont like anyone else on the board at the time. I like Jordan, and Augustine, but I dont think they are good enough to go that early. I am really at a lose for who they should take. However, I love all the people that go before the 6th pick. Mayo, Lopez, Beast-ly, and Rose would fit with the Knicks in my mind.

  67. villainx

    LA Clippers might take Love. Or Hibbert? Or someone with size so they can slide Brand to the PF spot.

  68. Alec

    Chris Kamen is a monster and starts for them. Hibbert blew his stock with poor play. He is a 20 something pick

  69. jon abbey

    “I just dont like anyone else on the board at the time. I like Jordan, and Augustine, but I dont think they are good enough to go that early. I am really at a lose for who they should take.”

    Eric Gordon.

  70. Frank

    Boy I am so disheartened by the last few games. What is this all about. And then I look at the potential draft order and I see the teams above us with supposedly “worse” teams and I’d rather have their roster than ours in a second. If the draft goes as Alec says, then look at the cores of teams “worse than us”

    - Miami – Wade, Marion, Beasley
    - Seattle – Durant, Green, DRose
    - Minny – Jefferson, Foye, Bayless
    - Memphis – Conley, Gay, Mike Miller, Lopez
    - LAC – Brand, Kaman, Mayo, Thornton

    I like all those teams better than ours and they all have better cap futures than we do. This is brutal.

  71. jon abbey

    yeah, we’re by far the most fucked team in the league, and that status probably wouldn’t change even if we got Rose, which is looking increasingly unlikely.

  72. Frank

    If we get stuck at 6 or 7 I’d probably go with either Westbrook for his D (it really did look like D Rose was afraid to try and drive on him — was REALLY quiet when Westbrook guarded him) or Anthony Randolph for his potential at the 3/4 swing slot. We certainly don’t need any more power forwards, which makes me want to not draft guys like Blake Griffin or Love, and at center I am not sold on either Javale McGee or DeAndre Jordan — not that I’ve ever seen either of them play but when Draftexpress calls McGee the worst man-to-man defender they’ve ever seen and Jordan gets his shot blocked multiple times by a guy smaller and less athletic than him (Kevin Love), those can’t be good signs. I see Jamal Magloire (who was a decent player in his own right a few years back) all over those two.

    We definitely don’t need Eric Gordon as he smells like another combo guard a la Ben Gordon who isn’t worth the money or playing time he’s given. And I don’t know the first thing about Batum or Gallinari to be honest.

    So I say Westbrook or Randolph. Thoughts?

  73. Ray

    I still think we still need to get Mayo. People keep saying that he doesnt have much upside but that sounds like a foolish statement to me. During the course of the year he went up against some of the best guards in the nation…. Bayless, Westbrook and even Rose and went toe to toe with them defensively. Whats the knock on him then? Turnovers… that can be coached out of him. Shot selection? It cant get any worse than Crawford. Can he shoot? Yes. Can he get to the rim? Yes. Does he have a good handle? Yes. Can he handle pressure in crunch time? Yes. Is he coachable? Yes. Defensive mindset? Yes. Can he mature? Yes. I think hes a great pick for us. He brings a buzz with him too that would be great for NYC. Problem is that the Knicks have decided to go on a win streak. At 5 we can get him. At six our chances our thinning and we could win up with Bayless. If either once of these guys start having great Pre-draft camps EVERYTHING could change. For the good or the bad. Maybe the clips might want to move up. Theres got to be a light at the end of this tunnel somewhere. As for now…Mayo would be my pick.

  74. Frank

    I’d rather have Mayo too but I thought he’d probably be off the board by pick 6 or 7. I’d be happy with either Mayo or Westbrook as both look like they like to D up (I guess Westbrook did win D-player of the year in the Pac10) and have good upside as multi-faceted offensive players.

  75. TDM

    Yesterday, I was thinking about how we don’t really get a good idea of how good a player will be when he does one year of college ball and then tries to jump to the nba. I specifically focused on pg. Some interesting trends are apparent when you compare the freshman season of some college pgs to that of some pgs in the nba right now.

    Player / assists per game / assist-to % / ppg

    NBA:

    C Paul / 5.9 / 2.23 / 14.8
    D Will / 4.5 / 2.45 / 6.3
    Nash / 2.2 / 1.1 / 8.1
    Kidd / 7.7 / 1.98 / 13.0
    J Craw / 4.5 / 1.43 / 16.6
    Nate / 2.3 / 1.24 / 13.0
    F Jones / 1.9 / .91 / 9.1
    Mardy / 2.6 / 1.45 / 12.0

    Prospects:

    Ty Lawson / 5.6 / 2.57 / 10.2
    Augustine / 6.7 / 2.03 / 14.4
    Mayo / 3.3 / .90 / 20.7
    Rose / 4.7 / 1.77 / 14.9
    Bayless / 4.0 / 1.36 / 19.7
    Gordon / 2.4 / .68 / 20.0

    What stood out to me was that it seems players either are careful with the ball, or not. It isn’t something that changes overtime as some may suggest. The only real anomoly is Nash, based on his freshman year of college.

    Also, it appears to some extent the more a player scores, the less careful they are with the ball (e.g. J Craw, Mayo, and Gordon). Based on the stats above, it appears that Ty Lawson is a guy who could provide consistent pg play in the nba. None of the knicks pgs have an ass/to ratio over 2. Gordon and Mayo had more turnovers than assists. While Augustine is small (and a bit of a headcase) he put up solid numbers his freshman year.

    Withe regard to Rose, I have been hearing comparisons to Kidd. Based on freshman stats, they are very similar, although these are just numbers and don’t truly reflect the complete player.

    IMO, we need a pg that can distribute the ball and make his teammates better – not a pg that will look to be the Knicks first scoring option. Could Lawson or Augustine be that guy? I’d give a pass to Mayo based upon the fact that he wasn’t surrounded by any other scoring options, however his assist/TO ratio is abysmal which is concerning.

  76. Alec

    I think Lawson isnt good enough to go at number 6, but the last thing I want is another Hawk situation where they passed on Paul and D. Williams.

    I am hoping that some GM falls in love with a player and takes him way earlier then he is suppose to go. My guess is that it might be Love at the Wolves. That opens a shot where the Knicks might get Lopez, Bayless, or Mayo.

    I agree with Frank that I don’t like Eric Gordon as a combo guard. Even if they move him to the one, he could turn into another Marbury. If not he is Ben Gordon.

    I’m curious to know who on this blog would be opposed to trading down IF we could trade away a bad contract. I’m talking our first rounder, Zach for a pick in the late teens, early 20′s and an expiring contract.

  77. Ray

    Not me Alec….we can get some quality talent right where we are. It is an option but it would have to be a swweeeet deal.

  78. ari

    Mayo will be drafted no later than 5, maybe as high as 3. I agree he’d be the best choice for the knicks after rose and maybe beasly-but the win streak prob has prevented us from even him-E. Gordon seems like a poor man’s Ben Gordon, Mayo has much more ability to star in the league.

  79. vokmar

    Hey Thomas B. I liked ur early analysis but that swing at the end really spoilt it. Maybe it was just ur good luck to start with and bad luck at the end.
    Suppose the IT (knicks) were to draft Mayo and he didn’t live up to expectations….what would that be?

  80. Frank

    I think if the right opportunity comes up and we don’t have to move too far back I’d be all for getting rid of one of these contracts — like if we pick at 6 and the team that picks at 9 really wants player X at #6, and we have 4 players with exactly the same grade and are guaranteed one of them at #9, why wouldn’t we do that?

  81. jimmy p

    I don’t think that Rose is going to be around for our pick. I do think he is a far better ball handler and distributor today than Ben Gordon will ever be. Far more full court and complete game awareness than B. Gordon who is simply looking for his space to jack it up.

    If you’re looking for the next Starbury, the best candidate today is OJ Mayo…comes with his own entourage.

    I agree with Jon Abbey…Eric Gordon.

  82. Johnny Twisto

    Is this damn game on TV for regular folks who don’t have fucking League Pass!@?!!!?

  83. Johnny Twisto

    Finally found it…Ch. 60 CSPAN2 on Timewarner Cable. God forbid knicks.com or MSG make that information easy to find. Of course we’re getting smoked anyway. (which makes most of you happy)

  84. jon abbey

    “I don’t think that Rose is going to be around for our pick.”

    Portland was tied for the sixth worst record last year, and Seattle was fifth, so let’s wait and see how it actually shakes out. I’d say the karma gods owe us, but Dolan and Isiah have been such assholes, I’m not really sure that’s true.

    if the top six are gone, maybe DeAndre Jordan is an option, although I don’t know nearly enough about him. he’d be a project, but it’s not like we’re going anywhere soon. Westbrook might be good also, if he declares and if he can really play PG in the pros. I’m still hoping for Rose or Mayo personally…

  85. jon abbey

    we have 23 wins, LA has 23 wins, and Memphis has 22 with one still left against Minnesota. so ASSUMING WE LOSE OUT, we have a shot for a three way tie for 4th, which would then I believe be determined randomly if two or more of those three don’t make the top three. all of that means a reasonable shot at fifth, ASSUMING WE LOSE OUT THIS TIME.

  86. Frank

    I think if there is a tie they split all the ping pong balls equally between the 3 teams. that’s not half bad for us actually.

  87. Ray

    I dont want anything to do with Eric Gordon. He wont be able to guard NBA 2′s. He going to have to work extra hard to get his shot off at the next level. I could be wrong. As for DeAndre Jordan…hes a true project. 7 feet tall and all he has to show is a highlight dunk on youtube. Thats really it. If we could dump Zach’s contract and get someone like CDR i might do that or still have a lottery pick and get an extra pickin the 12-20 range i might do that too. Other that that Mayo is my man.

  88. jon abbey

    “I think if there is a tie they split all the ping pong balls equally between the 3 teams. that’s not half bad for us actually.”

    yeah, I know that, what I mean is the position after the balls are drawn. if teams are tied and don’t get picked in the top three, they need to be placed in some order, and it seems as if it’s just done randomly, determined prior to the lottery by the league office.

  89. Thomas B.

    “Hey Thomas B. I liked ur early analysis but that swing at the end really spoilt it. Maybe it was just ur good luck to start with and bad luck at the end.”

    Hey thanks vokmar. Be sure to buy my new book, “Right Half the Time: the Thomas B. story.”

    Available where half decent books are sold. It’s 50% off.
    ———–
    The one the worse than giving away an unprotected top five lottery pick is winning your way out of top five lottery pick. When we are picking 7th we will really need Isiah’s luck/talent to find a winner.

  90. Thomas B.

    jon,

    “yeah, I know that, what I mean is the position after the balls are drawn. if teams are tied and don’t get picked in the top three, they need to be placed in some order, and it seems as if it’s just done randomly, determined prior to the lottery by the league office.”

    I think it is done by coin flip. We were tied with Toronto in 2005 and I think they won the coin flip to get ahead of us. I think.

  91. MJG

    I’m from San Antonio, and liked David Robinson (hell, what’s not to like?) but my favorite center was always Patrick Ewing. The jumpshot, the turn-to-the-middle-three-steps-and-score play that he did his whole career, his tireless effort on defense despite not being as talented as DR or Dream. Derek Harper was probably my favorite player of all time and it broke my heart when the Knicks failed to beat the Rockets in 94.

    Somebody else mentioned this, but it’s true that Patrick never had a true “second banana,” a reliable other player. He made do with Starks, whom I loved but as we all know had serious flaws, and Oakley, who led the league in effort if not talent. I guess Anthony Mason came closest, although he was kind of erratic as a scorer.

    Anyway, I’ll always think of him knocking down a J with the Knicks announcer stating, “Patrick… EWING.”

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