Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Sunday, August 31, 2014

Bulls 93, Knicks 85

New York Knicks 85 Final
Recap | Box Score
93 Chicago Bulls
Kurt Thomas, PF 16 MIN | 3-4 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 1 AST | 6 PTS | +3

It’s not really getting any better for Kurt. Wasn’t bad tonight but he remains incapable of distinguishing himself on a very deep team. He’s shooting 35% on the year and doesn’t seem to be superior to Sheed in any facet of his game. The return of Amare — or even Marcus Camby — is likely to bump him out of the rotation completely. Did have one vicious swat on Marquis Teague in the third quarter. He started tonight but I suspect it was mostly to line Sheed up with the second unit for some extra scoring punch.

Ronnie Brewer, SF 16 MIN | 0-5 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 0 AST | 0 PTS | 0

Not as good as your typical Ronnie Brewer night. In fact, might not even have been as good as your typical Jamison Brewer night. Still had his game a step above Milwaukee mascot Bernie Brewer and SNL goat-boy portrayer Jim Breuer though. Hey, it’s something.

Tyson Chandler, C 37 MIN | 4-8 FG | 6-9 FT | 18 REB | 1 AST | 14 PTS | -7

The best player on the court by a long way. Had a sequence at 11 minutes of the third quarter — 3 straight offensive boards, set Brewer up for an easy layup that he (of course) missed, ultimately drew a shooting foul — in which he looked like a teenager playing with a bunch of much younger cousins at a family reunion. His off-ball movement is such a vital component of their Melo-less offense; when they abandoned it in favor of a healthy portion of Felton isolation sets, the results were predictably bad.

Jason Kidd, PG 29 MIN | 2-7 FG | 0-0 FT | 4 REB | 2 AST | 6 PTS | -15

Quieter day for Jason. He’s entitled to one of those on occasion. He had his 10th block of the year tonight which is as many as he had all of last year and one more than he had in the 2004-05 season when he played nearly 2,500 minutes. The more you know.

Raymond Felton, PG 38 MIN | 9-30 FG | 8-9 FT | 5 REB | 5 AST | 27 PTS | -12

The good news is that he’s really embraced the alpha dog role with Melo out. The bad news is that he’s really embraced the alpha dog role with Melo out. WAYYYYYYYYYYY too shot-happy tonight but was the only guy out there looking to initiate action (everything they do right now is built on either the pick and roll or his dribble penetration to create space for shooters) and did an impressive job limiting turnovers considering how frequently he was steaming ahead into the teeth of a very good defense. I’m not gonna say it was good but to just look at his FG shooting numbers and declare it a disaster would be a mistake. Perhaps more importantly: he looked absolutely exhausted down the stretch and it isn’t a coincidence that the Knicks offense ground to an ultimately damning halt once that fatigue set in. The two-PG lineups have been effective but Woodson might need to start looking to reduce Felton’s minutes or risk a 2009 Chris Duhon situation. And that wouldn’t be good for anybody.

Rasheed Wallace, PF 16 MIN | 2-6 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 0 AST | 6 PTS | -5

Plenty of ink has been spilled on Sheed this season and that is sure to continue. All things considered this was a pretty mediocre offensive night but his on-ball defense in the post remains incredible for a player of any age, let alone Sheed’s age. Watch the sequence of him forcing a Boozer miss at three minutes of the first quarter to see what I mean. The guy who played Cutty on The Wire is no doubt praying that Sheed’s dream season will continue to the point where it justifies a movie. Tonight didn’t really move the needle either way on that front.

Steve Novak, SF 31 MIN | 1-4 FG | 4-4 FT | 3 REB | 1 AST | 7 PTS | -4

Mostly invisible. Missed a clean look at the end of the shot clock that would’ve cut it to 2 with just over a minute left. Bulls scored the next time down and that was pretty much that.

Pablo Prigioni, PG 10 MIN | 0-3 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 2 AST | 0 PTS | +4

Seems like he’s either very good or very bad most nights. Was bad in the first half of this one; his shot was off, he didn’t initiate much, and his open-floor foul on Nate Robinson veered dangerously close to bush league. A little better as the game went on but that was more about limiting mistakes than creating much positive value. A down night.

James White, SG 12 MIN | 2-3 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 1 AST | 4 PTS | +10

Tonight’s case study for my upcoming research paper: “Single Game +/- and Why It Doesn’t Mean Anything” (he was plus-10). Had one nice drive to the rim. Just 70 days til the Slam Dunk Contest.

J.R. Smith, SG 35 MIN | 4-14 FG | 5-6 FT | 2 REB | 1 AST | 15 PTS | -14

Not much to say about J.R. — he shot badly (although made some of that back at the line), didn’t protect the ball, didn’t do much of note on the defensive end. Blah.

Five Things We Saw

  1. It’s always great to be able to provide an insightful diagnosis after a loss but I think tonight was pretty straightforward: Raymond Felton took 30 shots, missed 21 of them, and nobody else looked particularly capable of creating anything. Meanwhile, the Knicks defense was decent enough but failed to get stops on a few key possessions down the stretch and, in a road game against a good defense, that was enough to doom them.
  2. Refs called this game extremely tight both ways. The Gibson ejection seemed like an extremely quick trigger, there were lots of fouls, and I think the officials might have been taken in by a handful of, um, “embellishments” over the course of the evening. Ultimately don’t feel like either team came out way ahead or behind, just something worth noting.
  3. Bigs who can hit mid-range jumpers seem to bother the Knicks. Their interior defense is so reliant on Chandler staying at home that they leave pockets of space open that can be exploited by shooters who are adept between twelve and eighteen feet. All things considered it’s a good place to be weak since long twos are the least efficient shots but Boozer is a bad matchup for them and I could see it hurting them down the road against specific teams.
  4. Luol Deng and Raymond Felton are basically living parallel existences as useful offensive players who are masquerading as first options while their star teammates nurse injuries. Here’s wishing Carmelo Anthony and Derrick Rose swift returns so that the next time these two sides meet it isn’t so ugly.
  5. I will forever love Nate Robinson no matter what uniform he’s wearing. Maybe it was just me but he looked a step slow tonight. Not getting the same incredible lift when he jumps (my girlfriend was actually the one to point this out while we were watching and I think she was absolutely right) and had a hard time pushing the tempo in transition (see J.R. Smith running him down for a block from behind with 1:08 left in the game; that never used to happen). Take away his elite athleticism and there isn’t much to keep Nate in the league so I hope this was just an off night.

117 comments on “Bulls 93, Knicks 85

  1. jon abbey

    grade inflation for Chandler in almost every single one of these recaps, he was as bad on offense today as he was good on defense. no one was good for NY in this game.

  2. BigBlueAL

    If the Knicks had Ewing tonight instead of Chandler they probably win even though Owen would disagree :-)

  3. jon abbey

    BigBlueAL:
    If the Knicks had Ewing tonight instead of Chandler they probably win even though Owen would disagree :-)

    heh, actually there’s little question about that, as Ewing generated his own offense as opposed to Chandler.

  4. Brian Cronin

    While obviously we always want the Knicks to win, this loss was a really easy one to accept. The Knicks had no Melo and the Bulls are a lot better than the Bobcats. 14-5 is a great record. You have to happy with the way this team is playing. 14-5!!!

  5. nicos

    I think you saw the one limitation of the Chandler/Felton PNR- if you have a legit shot blocking big like Noah, you can sag him all the way back into the paint and because Chandler can’t pick and pop you can just force Felton into mid-range jumper after mid-range jumper. You saw Kurt Thomas hit two wide-open 16 footers off of pnr’s but you can’t really do that with Chandler (not that Chandler’s entirely to blame- if Felton was a more consistent shooter the opposing big would have to step out to challenge his shot and Chandler would get the space he needs). One reason Amar’e has been so good in the pnr is he’s happy to go wherever there’s space- if Noah played him that way he’d have had open foul line jumper after open foul line jumper and the minute Noah came out to challenge he’d of blown by him. Of course, he wouldn’t have had nine offensive rebounds and he might have given up a lay-up for every pnr he converted so I’m not sure what you gain.

  6. BigBlueAL

    The Felton-Kurt Thomas PnR tonight was giving me flashbacks to a game vs the Heat shortly after the Marbury trade where Kurt Thomas went 7 for 7 in the 2nd half with almost all of those shots off a PnR with Marbury which lead to wide open 15 footers like the ones he made tonight. Dont ask me why or how the hell I remember that game lol

  7. BigBlueAL

    I have too much time on my hands. I found the game I was referring to at basketballreference and indeed Kurt went 7 for 7 in the 2nd half. 5 of those baskets were assisted from Marbury which were a 15 footer, 17 footer, a couple of 19 footers and a 21 footer. His other 2 baskets were a 16 footer from Van Horn and an 8 footer from Shandon Anderson.

    Amazing that BBR now has shot charts and PBP of older games. I know recently they found box scores from all the games they were missing but had no idea some of the older box scores are this detailed now although I have no idea how far back the detailed box scores go but I know now for sure it goes as far back as the 2003-2004 season lol.

  8. ruruland

    jon abbey: heh, actually there’s little question about that, as Ewing generated his own offense as opposed to Chandler.

    It’s really an insult to long-time Knicks fans fandom and intilligence when folks like Owen claim Chandler is a better player (and we all love Chandler)..

  9. ruruland

    nicos:
    I think you saw the one limitation of the Chandler/Felton PNR- if you have a legit shot blocking big like Noah, you can sag him all the way back into the paint and because Chandler can’t pick and pop you can just force Felton into mid-range jumper after mid-range jumper.You saw Kurt Thomas hit two wide-open 16 footers off of pnr’s but you can’t really do that with Chandler (not that Chandler’s entirely to blame- if Felton was a more consistent shooter the opposing big would have to step out to challenge his shot and Chandler would get the space he needs).One reason Amar’e has been so good in the pnr is he’s happy to go wherever there’s space- if Noah played him that way he’d have had open foul line jumper after open foul line jumper and the minute Noah came out to challenge he’d of blown by him.Of course, he wouldn’t have had nine offensive rebounds and he might have given up a lay-up for every pnr he converted so I’m not sure what you gain.

    Remember what Amar’e did to the Bulls last year, and this was with shitty pnr point guards and Chandler…

    Amar’e will do just great with Tyson and Felton, and it won’t change a thig for Tyson.

    That elbow extended area iwill be defended the same way with Amar’e as it currently is with Brewer and or Thomas.

  10. BigBlueAL

    Yeah Im probably in the minority but I cant wait for Amar’e to come back (assuming he comes back healthy of course).

  11. jon abbey

    yeah, Chandler is awesome, I just wish people would see his flaws as clearly as they see Melo’s (admittedly Melo’s are maybe easier to see on casual observation).

  12. ruruland

    jon abbey:
    yeah, Chandler is awesome, I just wish people would see his flaws as clearly as they see Melo’s (admittedly Melo’s are maybe easier to see on casual observation).

    Right, it’s not easy to see flaws that don’t manifest on the court. Chandler’s flaws are things he cannot do and simply never attempts.

    Also, great defensive rep (which Chandler deserves) lends to a lot of confirmation bias and when he has poor defensive games.

    He’s actually a very mediocre defensive rebounder and a poor shot blocker for a center, which you would never think of when you talk about DPOY and see a 7-footer as athletic and active as Chandler is.

    But yeah, he’s a great player, and pleasure to watch. But he’s no in-prime Ewing.

  13. maxwell_3g

    this is not a shot at woody, but this game showed me what a great coach Tom Thibodeaux (sp???) is. He has a very limited team right now, as do the Knicks, but he has his team busting it on defense every night instead of just going through the motions until Rose returns. I thought they were very impressive.
    as for the Knicks, I think JR is continuing to show the league why he is properly compensated for his talents. As a role players, you watch him and cant help but think he could do more if given a bigger role. and then when melo is out, he clearly cant be a first or second opton, as he lacks go to move that ever get him easy scores. its always a little dissapointing, but at this point, it is what it is. we need melo back

  14. jon abbey

    Thibodeau is a fantastic defensive coach, but actually what you were impressed by is probably his biggest failing in that he pushes his guys way too hard during the regular season, one reason they’ve disappointed in the playoffs the last two years. Deng played 46 minutes last night, and 40+ in every game in 4 of 5 nights, that will wear down pretty much anyone.

  15. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    ruruland: Right, it’s not easy to see flaws that don’t manifest on the court. Chandler’s flaws are things he cannot do and simply never attempts.

    A flaw is trying with reckless abandon to do something you cannot do. A flaw is Josh Smith thinking he’s a 3-point specialist. A flaw is J.R. Smith thinking that a fadeaway 19-footer is a good shot. A flaw is Michael Beasley playing NBA minutes.

    If you want to call Chandler’s acceptance of his strengths and dismissal of his weaknesses a “flaw,” well, I’d like to offer up my counterargument.

  16. jon abbey

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:

    If you want to call Chandler’s acceptance of his strengths and dismissal of his weaknesses a “flaw,” well, I’d like to offer up my counterargument.

    his inability to generate his own offense is not a good thing and can really hurt, as we all saw last night. he’s not a top 10 NBA player, I wish he was.

  17. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    jon abbey: Quote

    You know that Chandler had pretty much nothing to do with Brewer, Novak, and Prigioni combining to go 1-12, right?

  18. jon abbey

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: You know that Chandler had pretty much nothing to do with Brewer, Novak, and Prigioni combining to go 1-12, right?

    actually if Chandler were really the threat you thought he was on offense, those shots would have been more open, so wrong again as usual.

  19. maxwell_3g

    jon abbey: his inability to generate his own offense is not a good thing and can really hurt, as we all saw last night. he’s not a top 10 NBA player, I wish he was.

    i dont know if thcj has said otherwise in some prior post and im just late to the argument, but i dont think any of us consider chadler a top 10 player. but he is a very good player, and i for one, like chandler, who does oneor 2 things great and plays to his strengths over than a “complete” player who does not particularly well. i think every team in the league would be more than happy to get the game that chandler gave us yesterday out of their center

  20. Owen

    They were open enough. The ball just wasn’t moving like it did against Miami. Felton seemed determined to have a big scoring night and do his Melo impersonation rather than just playing ball.

    I would take Chandler over Ewing. It’s close but I was never a fan of Ewing’s insistence on shooting 18 footers. As much as I loved him and the Knicks during my youth I was painfully aware that Ewing just wasn’t a premier star.

  21. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    jon abbey: actually if Chandler were really the threat you thought he was on offense, those shots would have been more open, so wrong again as usual.

    “More open?” Do you mean that Novak would have been much more likely to hit that good look near the end had the defender been like, “I NEED TO DOUBLE TEAM CHANDLER BECAUSE HE’S BASICALLY A SKINNIER SHAQ”?

    No, abbey. You’re wrong. A missed open shot is a missed open shot. Blaming it on Chandler is something I expect from you, but it’s wrong.

  22. jon abbey

    maxwell_3g: i dont know if thcj has said otherwise in some prior post and im just late to the argument, but i dont think any of us consider chandler a top 10 player.

    actually the two posters below you do.

  23. jon abbey

    Owen:
    As much as I loved him and the Knicks during my youth I was painfully aware that Ewing just wasn’t a premier star.

    yeah, this is crazy too. he wasn’t Jordan, he wasn’t Hakeem, but he was definitely a top 5 player for a long time. Chandler never has been that and never will be, as much as I wish he was.

  24. jon abbey

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: A missed open shot is a missed open shot.

    this is the source of many of your misunderstandings, believing that a basket is a basket, a missed shot is a missed shot, a rebound is a rebound, all with no interest in the nuances that often make them slightly or wildly different and can lead to a deeper understanding of the game. your loss, actually.

  25. DRed

    jon abbey: this is the source of many of your misunderstandings, believing that a basket is a basket, a missed shot is a missed shot, a rebound is a rebound, all with no interest in the nuances that often make them slightly or wildly different and can lead to a deeper understanding of the game. your loss, actually.

    That may be true, but saying ” if Chandler were really the threat you thought he was on offense, those shots would have been more open” is an unproveable conjecture. Maybe those shots would have been different, but maybe not. Or maybe they wouldn’t have even existed.

  26. jon abbey

    DRed: That may be true, but saying ” if Chandler were really the threat you thought he was on offense, those shots would have been more open” is an unproveable conjecture.Maybe those shots would have been different, but maybe not.Or maybe they wouldn’t have even existed.

    it’s not conjecture that when a player has to be double-teamed, it opens up space for the other four players.

  27. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    jon abbey: it’s not conjecture that when a player has to be double-teamed, it opens up space for the other four players.

    This is conjecture. Do you not recognize that?

  28. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: A flaw is trying with reckless abandon to do something you cannot do. A flaw is Josh Smith thinking he’s a 3-point specialist. A flaw is J.R. Smith thinking that a fadeaway 19-footer is a good shot. A flaw is Michael Beasley playing NBA minutes.

    If you want to call Chandler’s acceptance of his strengths and dismissal of his weaknesses a “flaw,” well, I’d like to offer up my counterargument.

    True or false: a team of five Chandlers falls well below the needed usage to play a full game of offense. 35% below what would be needed. That’s huge.

    By being a low usage player, Chandler is burdening his teammates with extra shots, more shots, in fact, than the average player burdens teammates.

    His usage is below average, and there is no way to increase it.

    Let me ask you two this, if Chandler increased his usage by 5-7 percent by adding 2-3 shots that he could make at a slightly higher percentage than Brewer, Felton or Smith could make, is there any way you could deny that Chandler would be simultaneously helping the Knicks offense while dramatically hurting his stats.

    How is this not another checkmate argument?

    Will you both hide now?

  29. ruruland

    Owen:
    They were open enough. The ball just wasn’t moving like it did against Miami. Felton seemed determined to have a big scoring night and do his Melo impersonation rather than just playing ball.

    I would take Chandler over Ewing. It’s close but I was never a fan of Ewing’s insistence on shooting 18 footers. As much as I loved him and the Knicks during my youth I was painfully aware that Ewing just wasn’t a premier star.

    This is hilarious. All of it.
    How can anyone else stand this?

  30. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: This is conjecture. Do you not recognize that?

    It’s as much conjecture as saying when I’m at Susie’s house, I can no longer be anywhere else in the universe.

    Is Berri working on quantum mechanics now too?

  31. ruruland

    DRed: That may be true, but saying ” if Chandler were really the threat you thought he was on offense, those shots would have been more open” is an unproveable conjecture.Maybe those shots would have been different, but maybe not.Or maybe they wouldn’t have even existed.

    If it were true that individuals could not help teammates score the basketball, than a) there would be no such thing as a pass because b) there would be no such thing as help defense.

  32. massive

    If the Knicks have Chandler instead of Ewing, that would have meant more shots for guys like John Starks. Without Ewing, we never make it to the NBA Finals. Chandler is not a high usage superstar the way Ewing was. This is a rather worthless argument.

    On the same token, you cannot blame Chandler for other guys not making open shots. That’s actually really dumb; he cannot shoot the ball for them and he is not responsible for perimeter ball movement (that would be Kidd and Felton’s job). The biggest reason we lost the game was people kept missing open shots and not because Chandler lacked the ability to step up.

  33. ruruland

    Owen:
    They were open enough. The ball just wasn’t moving like it did against Miami. Felton seemed determined to have a big scoring night and do his Melo impersonation rather than just playing ball.

    I would take Chandler over Ewing. It’s close but I was never a fan of Ewing’s insistence on shooting 18 footers. As much as I loved him and the Knicks during my youth I was painfully aware that Ewing just wasn’t a premier star.

    Owen, do you think you know more about last nights game than Raymond Felton, and if so, how do you explain his reasoning for the extra shots?

    The quotes take a few seconds to find. Please read them and get back to us if you’d like to be taken seriously.

  34. Owen

    I guess he made first team nba in 90. Bu i dont remember Ewing ever being considered one of the top guys in the league. Not even by Knicks fans. At the beginning of his career, Bird, Magic and Jordan were always their own tier and Ewing always fell very far short of that standard. Once Robinson,and Shaq arrived Ewing was the fourth best center in the league. And Malone and Barkley were there too along with many others.

    I don’t know, perhaps this is revisionism, but Ewing always struck me as first amongst equals during the Riley era, where the Knicks success, such as it was, was a tribute to team effort, especially on the defensive end. Ewing was the biggest part of that, sure, but the talent was deep and broad on that team, more so than any 60 win team that I can think of. They proved that you can win a lot of games without any great offensive players, a message which I have never forgotten, though the front office clearly did.

  35. ruruland

    massive:
    If the Knicks have Chandler instead of Ewing, that would have meant more shots for guys like John Starks. Without Ewing, we never make it to the NBA Finals. Chandler is not a high usage superstar the way Ewing was. This is a rather worthless argument.

    On the same token, you cannot blame Chandler for other guys not making open shots. That’s actually really dumb; he cannot shoot the ball for them and he is not responsible for perimeter ball movement (that would be Kidd and Felton’s job). The biggest reason we lost the game was people kept missing open shots and not because Chandler lacked the ability to step up.

    It’s not a worthless argument to say a guy who both scored at above average efficiency and simply by default made his teammates better on offense is better on offense than a guy who burdens his teammates with as many above-normal-usage plays than the extra possesions creates with his above-average rebounding rate is an inferior offensive player.

    Second, if Felton, Smith and Melo all decided to change their job description to Chandler’s, and Jason Kidd gets burdened with the extra shots that dramatically lower his efficiency, is it just Kidd who becomes a much worse player while Felton, Melo and Smith become much better?

    C’mon people.

  36. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    ruruland: Let me ask you two this, if Chandler increased his usage by 5-7 percent by adding 2-3 shots that he could make at a slightly higher percentage than Brewer, Felton or Smith could make, is there any way you could deny that Chandler would be simultaneously helping the Knicks offense while dramatically hurting his stats.

    Because Chandler shoots the ball pretty much every time he touches it (minus kick-out ORB), how is this his fault that the Knicks are not calling plays where he has a chance to touch it?

    Why did J.R. Smith shoot an ISO shot at the end of the 2nd quarter last night? Why couldn’t that have been a pick and roll play?

    If the Chandler pick and roll is so effective, why isn’t it used more? How can we penalize Chandler for having NO chance to score on a play? Why are some plays more conducive to Chandler PnRs and some plays aren’t?

  37. ruruland

    Owen:
    I guess he made first team nba in 90. Bu i dont remember Ewing ever being considered one of the top guys in the league. Not even by Knicks fans. At the beginning of his career, Bird, Magic and Jordan were always their own tier and Ewing always fell very far short of that standard. Once Robinson,and Shaq arrived Ewing was the fourth best center in the league. And Malone and Barkley were there too along with many others.

    I don’t know, perhaps this is revisionism, but Ewing always struck me as first amongst equals during the Riley era, where the Knicks success, such as it was, was a tribute to team effort, especially on the defensive end. Ewing was the biggest part of that, sure, but the talent was deep and broad on that team, more so than any 60 win team that I can think of. They proved that you can win a lot of games without any great offensive players, a message which I have never forgotten, though the front office clearly did.

    Do you think Ewing shot around 70 % on the 5-6 either uncontested or lightly contested shots around the rim every game?

    Let’s say for arguments sake he was slightly less efficient than Chandler with those shots.

    Did those other 10 shots he took help or hurt the offense?

  38. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    ruruland: a guy who burdens his teammates with as many above-normal-usage plays than the extra possesions creates with his above-average rebounding rate is an inferior offensive player.

    CONJECTURE

  39. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Because Chandler shoots the ball pretty much every time he touches it (minus kick-out ORB), how is this his fault that the Knicks are not calling plays where he has a chance to touch it?

    Why did J.R. Smith shoot an ISO shot at the end of the 2nd quarter last night? Why couldn’t that have been a pick and roll play?

    If the Chandler pick and roll is so effective, why isn’t it used more? How can we penalize Chandler for having NO chance to score on a play? Why are some plays more conducive to Chandler PnRs and some plays aren’t?

    A person who doesn’t understand basketball wouldn’t be able to recognize that the Chandler pick and roll is far and away the most commonly run play by the Knicks this year, and that because the first thing defenses are built to take away is uncontested rim runs, that the play also results in a very low percentage of Chandler touches, which, surprise, only occur when he can finish them!!

    To say the Knicks dont run enough Chandler PnR gets you laughed off every coaches meeting in the NBA.

    As Robert would say, show yourself out.

  40. jon abbey

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Because Chandler shoots the ball pretty much every time he touches it (minus kick-out ORB), how is this his fault that the Knicks are not calling plays where he has a chance to touch it?

    are you kidding me? they tried to get him the ball more than usual last night, but it’s really not easy. he doesn’t even post usually, which is understandable as he has very little actual post game. what “plays” should they be calling that they’re not?

  41. jon abbey

    ruruland: A person who doesn’t understand basketball wouldn’t be able to recognize that the Chandler pick and roll is far and away the most commonly run play by the Knicks this year, and that because the first thing defenses are built to take away is uncontested rim runs, that the play also results in a very low percentage of Chandler touches, which, surprise, only occur when he can finish them!!

    To say the Knicks dont run enough Chandler PnR gets you laughed off every coaches meeting in the NBA.

    As Robert would say, show yourself out.

    it’s really amazing, but it’s kind of fascinating too, how people can watch the same game yet have such different perspectives/understandings of what’s going on.

  42. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: CONJECTURE

    Fact: Chandler has lower than normal usage

    Fact:Chandlers comparative rebound rate still creates fewer possessions than the average usage player.

    Fact: Therefore, Chandler burdens teammates with more shot creation than an average player.

  43. ruruland

    jon abbey: it’s really amazing, but it’s kind of fascinating too, how people can watch the same game yet have such different perspectives/understandings of what’s going on.

    True, I used to go to games with a mentally disabled kid who was under the guardianship of my grandfather, and it was amazing, I suppose, the kinds of things they talked about and watched during a sporting event.

  44. Juany8

    As I have pointed out before, any suggestion that Chandler CAN increase his usage is fucking stupid. He’s had below 15% his whole career, and if your standard for what a valid stat is involves consistency across time (which is the only thing Berri uses to actually prove his model but whatever) then it’s pretty clear Chandler’s usage is just as much a function of his own skill as his shooting percentage. Asking Chandler to increase his usage is like asking Novak to be a better defender, it would be nice if we lived in a pretend dream world where things like that could just happen, but they don’t. It’s mind-blowing that people believe in consistency except when it comes to the one stat that destroys their little narrative.

    Even if Chandler could take more shots, what kind of shots would the be? The league leader in shots at the rim is Javale McGee with 10 per 40 minutes, and he needs a lot more shots outside of the paint to reach that number, as well as only playing 20 minutes a game to conserve energy. So if Chandler shot more times at the rim per minute than anyone in the NBA, he’d still struggle to but up above a 20 usage rate.

    There’s also the awkward little logic conundrum we run into when we see that there are actually a lot of players that can shoot with Chandler’s efficiency at the rim, and some even with equal or greater frequency. Why is it that Tim Duncan is a dumbs? Why is it that him and Poppovich can’t see that Duncan shoots a monster percentage at the rim, and that he could have a 70 TS% if he would just stop posting up and shooting jumpers, focusing only on shots at the rim and resetting the offense if they’re not there. Why is it that the best big man of the past 10 years is such a moron and doesn’t improve his own efficiency regardless of the effect, because of course there aren’t any.

    When you claim that every single smart person in the NBA is a dumbass, it might be time to look in the mirror

  45. jon abbey

    Hasheem Thabeet is still leading the league in TS%, why does OKC let Durant and Westbrook shoot so much? call more plays for Thabeet!!

    too funny…

  46. Juany8

    jon abbey: are you kidding me? they tried to get him the ball more than usual last night, but it’s really not easy. he doesn’t even post usually, which is understandable as he has very little actual post game. what “plays” should they be calling that they’re not?

    I wonder if THCJ and Owen realize that the game plan behind every single Felton-Chandler pick and roll ever run is to get one of the two guys shots at the rim. They WANT to get Chandler more shots, they WANT open Novak 3′s, they WANT Felton getting all the way to the rim. If he’s not getting more good shots it’s because they’re not there, not because Felton is an idiot who likes attention and just jacks up shots. No one was complaining when he did the same thing against Miami’s crappy defense and it worked.

    In the past 2 games, I went back through the play by play, and it turns out that Chandler has had 23 true shot attempts and 4 turnovers to go along with 27 points. The past 2 games are also 2 of his worst 5 shooting displays of the season, and they are by far the worst 2 games out of his last 11. It’s almost a shame Melo won’t be out for a while, I wonder how long that trend would have to last for Owen and THCJ to even consider that Melo has a positive impact on his teammates performance

  47. Owen

    Juan – I disagree. I think Felton is trying to prove he is an all-star caliber point guard and trying to score enough to make an All-star team once in his career. He smells the opportunity and last night he was trying to make his case in a second big statement game while Melo is still out. Impressions formed at this time of year are huge in creating buzz and momentum.

    Jon – Do you think Carmelo Anthony is a more valuable basketball player than Tyson Chandler? Who is the more essential Knick?

  48. Owen

    And I know I am the one who doesn’t understand basketball around here, but I refuse to believe that Felton, with his sub 50% career ts%, had to use 35 possessions last night.

  49. ruruland

    Owen:
    Juan – I disagree. I think Felton is trying to prove he is an all-star caliber point guard and trying to score enough to make an All-star team once in his career. He smells the opportunity and last night he was trying to make his case in a second big statement game while Melo is still out. Impressions formed at this time of year are huge in creating buzz and momentum.

    Oh.My.God.

  50. jon abbey

    Owen:
    Juan – I disagree. I think Felton is trying to prove he is an all-star caliber point guard and trying to score enough to make an All-star team once in his career. He smells the opportunity and last night he was trying to make his case in a second big statement game while Melo is still out. Impressions formed at this time of year are huge in creating buzz and momentum.

    strongly disagree with this (except for the last sentence), he has no chance to make the All-Star team after he mailed in his performance last season.

    “Jon – Do you think Carmelo Anthony is a more valuable basketball player than Tyson Chandler? Who is the more essential Knick?”

    I think they’re both pretty essential and it’s close, neither has many counterparts in the league who can do what they do. when you ask “who is the most essential Knick?”, it gets tied into how good the replacements currently on the roster are, which I don’t think is what you’re interested in. if the question is “who would you choose to build a team around from scratch for this season?”, I would go with Melo.

    but Dallas of two years ago doesn’t win a title without both Dirk and Chandler, the championship Celtics don’t win a title without both Garnett and Pierce, both types of players are essential for a genuine title contender (in lieu of a LeBron anyway). what I hate is people being so certain they can parse out the data for a team game and confidently attribute it to individuals, especially when they’re so obviously wrong about it so often.

  51. jon abbey

    but calling Chandler better than Ewing is just flat out crazy, and I’m well aware of Ewing’s shortcomings.

  52. Juany8

    Owen:
    Juan – I disagree. I think Felton is trying to prove he is an all-star caliber point guard and trying to score enough to make an All-star team once in his career. He smells the opportunity and last night he was trying to make his case in a second big statement game while Melo is still out. Impressions formed at this time of year are huge in creating buzz and momentum.

    Jon – Do you think Carmelo Anthony is a more valuable basketball player than Tyson Chandler? Who is the more essential Knick?

    Actually I’d say they are about equal value and that I don’t have a problem with someone who thinks Chandler is the 1a to Melo’s 1b, or maybe even 1 to 2. That’s because a great defensive center who is also good enough at offense that you can run plays involving him is one of the rarest commodities in basketball, and the fact that Chandler is good at everything else makes him awesome. I don’t think he’s better at offense than Melo however, and they are both totally essential and dependent on one another to win a ring. The only big men in the past 20 years to win a ring without a volume perimeter creator (note that John Stockton counts as a creator, for instance) are Tim Duncan and Hakeem Olajuwon. I would also happily take both over any player of the past 20 years, they are the only players that could dominate both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor perhaps since Kareem.

    Your problem is that you see it as some kind of choice between Melo and Chandler to see who’s the best. I simply see one of the top 2 man cores in the league, neither is a true franchise player, but like Dirk and Chandler or Pierce and Garnett or Kobe and Pau, it’s the way they complement each other’s strengths while masking their weaknesses that makes the Knicks a great team. And it started last year under Woodson, Kidd and Brewer aren’t the freaking stars

  53. Juany8

    jon abbey: strongly disagree with this (except for the last sentence), he has no chance to make the All-Star team after he mailed in his performance last season.

    “Jon – Do you think Carmelo Anthony is a more valuable basketball player than Tyson Chandler? Who is the more essential Knick?”

    I think they’re both pretty essential and it’s close, neither has many counterparts in the league who can do what they do. when you ask “who is the most essential Knick?”, it gets tied into how good the replacements currently on the roster are, which I don’t think is what you’re interested in. if the question is “who would you choose to build a team around from scratch for this season?”, I would go with Melo.

    but Dallas of two years ago doesn’t win a title without both Dirk and Chandler, the championship Celtics don’t win a title without both Garnett and Pierce, both types of players are essential for a genuine title contender (in lieu of a LeBron anyway). what I hate is people being so certain they can parse out the data for a team game and confidently attribute it to individuals, especially when they’re so obviously wrong about it so often.

    Seems like we have the exact same thoughts on the matter, right down to Felton not caring about an all star bid because he’s smart enough to know he’ll never get one after what he pulled last year (even if Jason Kidd showed up out of shape last year too and no one said anything because he was old lol)

  54. jon abbey

    also NY would never get three All-Star berths and Melo and Chandler are both very good bets to make it, especially after playing on the Olympic team.

  55. Static

    A couple of things-

    1. I’d give Felton a solid F for this one, it reminded me a of a bad schoolyard game, where 2 friends show up, and ignore the other 3 guys on their side, even though they’re at times wide open, and windmilling their arms.

    2. JR Smith should be shooting midrange 2′s, not so many 3′s, except just enough to keep defenses honest. I think that’s basically the case for most creative scorer types including Kobe and Mello but even more so with him.

  56. Juany8

    Ok, the next time someone insults Felton’s shot attempts I want them to go back and watch what everyone else was doing when Felton took those shots. If you see a teammate that was wide open and Felton just ignored him to take a shot, you can call it as bad as you like. If Felton had nobody open and his choices were to shoot a decent shot or reset the offense, that is at worst an even play. And if Felton had a wide open look in rhythm, that is a good shot, even if Felton isn’t an excellent shooter.

    You can’t complain about a guy making good plays just because he missed a shot. I’m sure Felton took some bad shots last night, but it is not a coincidence that he’s shot so much the past 2 games, he’s the only guy on the team that’s capable of driving the ball inside the 3 point line with Melo out. Even if some of the shots weren’t good decisions, it is still the best decision team wise to give Felton the ball and let him do what he can. It’s like trying to replicate Linsanity except the opponents actually take this team seriously and they have quite a bit of tape on Felton.

  57. ruruland

    Juany8:

    Your problem is that you see it as some kind of choice between Melo and Chandler to see who’s the best. I simply see one of the top 2 man cores in the league, neither is a true franchise player, but like Dirk and Chandler or Pierce and Garnett or Kobe and Pau, it’s the way they complement each other’s strengths while masking their weaknesses that makes the Knicks a great team. And it started last year under Woodson, Kidd and Brewer aren’t the freaking stars

    nicely done

  58. Glew

    “The strength of the team is each individual member. The strength of each member is the team.”
    ? Phil Jackson (http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/527132-the-strength-of-the-team-is-each-individual-member-the)

    So yes Chandler is extremely valuable on the team and every team does need a variety of roles to be filled. It should go without saying but some players need to be efficient and low usage. Some should be less concerned with efficiency and more concerned with high usage shot creation in order to pressure defense and draw doubles. Since excellent shot creators are more rare than low usage high efficiency guys. Bottom line is Carmelo is more important and you saw what a team becomes without a legitimate offense generator.

  59. Owen

    It’s not a coincidence that Felton took and missed a lot of shots last night. That’s pretty consistent with his track record.

    Juan, both you and Ruru are obsessed with the idea that basketball revolves around the ability of one player to hero ball his team to victory. It makes sense you are both such fans of Melo.

    That’s not how good basketball is played. We showed we could play good basketball game against Miami. Last night was Felton just falling back into old bad habits….

  60. jon abbey

    Miami allows a ton of open three point shots, Chicago is the best at defending threes in the league. Felton wasn’t much different in the two games, the defense was.

  61. Glew

    Heres a few career regular season stats

    Exhibit 1
    4.4 AST%, 3.7 BLK%, 17.9 TOV%, 14 USG%, 34.1 OWS, 33.7 DWS
    seasons above 900 pts.= 1
    games=743

    Exhibit 2
    9.8 AST%, 4.8 BLK%, 13.6 TOV%, 28 USG%, 45 OWS, 81.4 DWS
    seasons above 900 pts.= 13
    games= 1183

    Exhibit 3
    15.6 AST%, 5.5 BLK%, 5.5 TOV%, 27.1 USG%, 68.3 OWS, 94.5 DWS
    seasons above 900 pts.=14
    games=1238

    Exhibit 1-Chandler
    Exhibit 2-Ewing
    Exhibit 3-Olajuwan

  62. Will the Thrill

    Chicago -Wide open three, airball
    Miami – contested by Lebron, swish

    jon abbey:
    Miami allows a ton of open three point shots, Chicago is the best at defending threes in the league. Felton wasn’t much different in the two games, the defense was.

  63. ruruland

    Owen:
    It’s not a coincidence that Felton took and missed a lot of shots last night. That’s pretty consistent with his track record.

    Juan, both you and Ruru are obsessed with the idea that basketball revolves around the ability of one player to hero ball his team to victory. It makes sense you are both such fans of Melo.

    That’s not how good basketball is played. We showed we could play good basketball game against Miami. Last night was Felton just falling back into old bad habits….

    Are you just trolling right now or what, because once again, all the arguments presented just in this thread seemed to have gone right over your head.

  64. Static

    Juany8:

    You can’t complain about a guy making good plays just because he missed a shot. I’m sure Felton took some bad shots last night, but it is not a coincidence that he’s shot so much the past 2 games, he’s the only guy on the team that’s capable of driving the ball inside the 3 point line with Melo out.

    You serious?

    Now the only guy on the team that can make shots is Felton?

    First of all they were bad shots by any metric, but especially by this one: 21 missed shots.

    Secondly, yes, I saw people open, and I saw them eventually not moving anymore and not cutting because it was obvious he wasn’t passing the rock.

    And this-many of his ‘Kobe Assists’ or misses come because Chandler is already open.

    Felton can be a decent player, but he’s not as good as he thinks.

  65. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Shh. That can’t happen.

    Actually, most of us were talking about the fact that many of the Knicks makes Thursday night were contested.

    The Knicks have the kind of shooters where they will occasionally have games like that.

    The Bulls did give up a few open looks that the Knicks missed, but their pick and roll coverage essentially demanded Felton shoot the ball.

    I’d say out of Felton’s 30 shots, 5-6 were non-shot clock forces.

    But again, if Felton isn’t creating offense, the Bulls are covering Chandler on the roll without helping on shooters, the only other option is JR Smith.

  66. ruruland

    Static: You serious?

    Now the only guy on the team that can make shots is Felton?

    First of all they were bad shots by any metric, but especially by this one: 21 missed shots.

    Secondly, yes, I saw people open, and I saw them eventually not moving anymore and not cutting because it was obvious he wasn’t passing the rock.

    And this-many of his ‘Kobe Assists’ or misses come because Chandler is already open.

    Felton can be a decent player, but he’s not as good as he thinks.

    Examples. I’ve got the game on dvr.

  67. nicos

    Owen:
    I guess he made first team nba in 90. Bu i dont remember Ewing ever being considered one of the top guys in the league. Not even by Knicks fans. At the beginning of his career, Bird, Magic and Jordan were always their own tier and Ewing always fell very far short of that standard. Once Robinson,and Shaq arrived Ewing was the fourth best center in the league. And Malone and Barkley were there too along with many others.

    I don’t know, perhaps this is revisionism, but Ewing always struck me as first amongst equals during the Riley era, where the Knicks success, such as it was, was a tribute to team effort, especially on the defensive end. Ewing was the biggest part of that, sure, but the talent was deep and broad on that team, more so than any 60 win team that I can think of. They proved that you can win a lot of games without any great offensive players, a message which I have never forgotten, though the front office clearly did.

    Oh come on- he was an eleven time all-star and named one of the fifty best players of all-time. He consistently finished 4/5 in mvp voting during his prime so I’d say it’s pretty safe to assume he was considered one of the top guys in the league. During his prime he was absolutely a top ten guy every year- I’d say top 5-7. Can you really say the same about Chandler?

  68. Static

    ruruland: Examples. I’ve got the game on dvr.

    Well I don’t. But, I just looked at the ‘highlights’ again–there were two times in there even where he probably should have passed it (although both resulted in Knicks baskets – one Kobe assist, and one crazy piece of luck off the top of the glass).

  69. ruruland

    fuck this, I’m going to log every one of Felton’s shots. I’ll be on the lookout for missed passing opportunites.go to the segment of the recording to see for yourself.

    Shot 1- Off pin-down, shot designed for Felton to take. 11:05

    2-Off Chandler screen with space, no Chandler roll, no help off roll, no one else open, 10 seconds in clock. decent shot. 9:38

    3-Off Chandler roll, Boozer helps inside, no passin angle to Thomas over two bigs, contested layup off glass ( the kind he made in Miami) 7:43. Best play available, 11 seconds on clock.

    4- Layup off Smith down screen 6:05

    5- Off Thomas screen, jumper, 8 seconds on clock. Note: Felton ran two pnrs with Thomas, Thomas declined the shot on the first one, and then declined the roll on the second to give space for the jumper. 4:53

    6–Missed layup on pnr when Noah helped on Chandler and gave Felton a 1-1 with Hinrich. Quality shot. 12 seconds on clock. 3:18

    7–Transition runner, and 1:28

    8–Transition layup 1:02

    cont…

  70. ruruland

    Static: Well I don’t. But, I just looked at the ‘highlights’ again–there were two times in there even where he probably should have passed it (although both resulted in Knicks baskets – one Kobe assist, and one crazy piece of luck off the top of the glass).

    Are you talking about the one in the first quarter? Shot #7?

  71. Static

    LOL. Your’re going to log every shot, and then put ‘Quality Shot’ or ‘No Passing Angle Over Two Bigs’ after it???

    Snicker.

  72. nicos

    The ball moved better around the perimeter against Miami because it was moving against rotating defenders. Chicago’s perimeter guys didn’t pinch in so they were there to challenge every pass. Kidd had two assists and three turnovers in 29 minutes- he’s been surgically precise breaking down rotating defenses but last night there was no rotation to break down. When Felton did kick it back out to the perimeter it usually wound up with JR going one on one. It’s worth noting that the one other game where the perimeter defenders were that disciplined and neither pinched nor just got lazy and lost track of their men was against Brooklyn and you saw pretty much the same result.

  73. ruruland

    Static:
    LOL. Your’re going to log every shot, and then put ‘Quality Shot’ or ‘No Passing Angle Over Two Bigs’ after it???

    Snicker.

    Wait, so saying Felton shot way too much without any specifics is better than describing each of his shots to better glean an understanding of how necessary his shots were, or whether there was a degree of opportunity cost?

    Clearly, the whole idea is for people to verify this for themselves.

    You just made your own judgments from the highlights without any suppport or specifics about what happened../..

    If you disagree with the description of the play, buy yourself a Synergy subscription (I’ll forward you my account you can use a few times if you’d like), watch it, and tell me why I’m wrong.

    Until that point, your posts add nothing to he conversation.

  74. Owen

    I actually thought JR was worse than Felton. Some seriously boneheaded turnovers. But you don’t need to chart the game to know that Ray Felton shouldn’t be using 35 possessions.

    The bottom line is that we played pretty terribly on offense and had a very good chance to win this game on the road against a good team with a great defense. Without our high scorer.

    Not sure why there needs to be so much sturm und drang about what is basically a good loss….

  75. ruruland

    nicos:
    The ball moved better around the perimeter against Miami because it was moving against rotating defenders.Chicago’s perimeter guys didn’t pinch in so they were there to challenge every pass.Kidd had two assists and three turnovers in 29 minutes- he’s been surgically precise breaking down rotating defenses but last night there was no rotation to break down.When Felton did kick it back out to the perimeter it usually wound up with JR going one on one.It’s worth noting that the one other game where the perimeter defenders were that disciplined and neither pinched nor just got lazy and lost track of their men was against Brooklyn and you saw pretty much the same result.

    good post per usual, but I would add that the Knicks had a lot more success between Chandler and Felton in that game because of Lopez’ relative lack of mobility.

    I wouldn’t say it wasn’t as much a matter of discpline as it was strategy and or tactic.

    The Nets were going to live with whatever Williams/Lopez gave up in the 2-2.

  76. ruruland

    Owen:
    I actually thought JR was worse than Felton. Some seriously boneheaded turnovers. But you don’t need to chart the game to know that Ray Felton shouldn’t be using 35 possessions.

    Again, Owen, dear god, the question isn’t whether anyone wants Felton to use 35 possessions, it’s about whether he had to or not, and whether the shots he took were the best available.

    Are you starting to wrap your mind around that distinction yet?

  77. Juany8

    Owen:
    It’s not a coincidence that Felton took and missed a lot of shots last night. That’s pretty consistent with his track record.

    Juan, both you and Ruru are obsessed with the idea that basketball revolves around the ability of one player to hero ball his team to victory. It makes sense you are both such fans of Melo.

    That’s not how good basketball is played. We showed we could play good basketball game against Miami. Last night was Felton just falling back into old bad habits….

    Past 12 Finals MVPs: Lebron, Dirk, Kobe, Kobe, Pierce, Tony Parker, Wade, Duncan, Billups, Duncan, and Shaq.

    Want to know what’s even crazier? Every single one of those players made at least one other Finals where they lost, often times more than one, except for Duncan and Parker. I value shot creators because every single team that has ever won a championship has depended on elite shot creators, and quite often those same guys are winning Finals MVPs.

    By the way, if interaction effects don’t exist, what exactly is an assist? If Felton makes a sick pass to Novak for a wide open 3 and he simply misses, did Felton make a different play than if Novak had made it? The box score is pathetic, every single smart front office in the league has their own stats world above stupid things like steals, blocks, and assists. If you’re not willing to find your own data, stop pretending anyone else is dumb for ignoring what you said, a model based on invalid data is an invalid model, regardless of anything else you put into it

  78. Juany8

    Do people really not get the difference between a good shot that just happens to miss as opposed to a bad shot that goes in? Do we really need to debate basic basketball? I guess that’s what happens in a world where people think assists mean anything then say each player is responsible for their own production. If you don’t fully understand the model you’re using you probably shouldn’t use it lol, otherwise you might have thought Denver had a chance to be better than OKC this season….

    Speaking of which, if Melo sits again and Felton is taking 20+ shots except people are actually making 3′s, keep in mind what kind of defense the Knicks are playing. It’s really sad how often the opponent is ignored when talking about a player or team’s production, how can you see 10 players on the court and pretend that each one of those players is fully responsible for each shot he takes?

  79. BigBlueAL

    Ewing was an 11-time All-Star. He was part of the original Dream Team. He was Rookie of the Year. He was player of the month 5 times. He was All-NBA 1st team once, 2nd team 6 times. Was All-NBA Defense 2nd team 3 times. In MVP voting he finished 4th in 1989, 5th in 1990, 11th in 1991, 5th in 1992, 4th in 1993, 5th in 1994, 4th in 1995 and 8th in 1997. Was also named as one of the 50 greatest players ever and a 1st ballot Hall of Famer.

    I think Ewing was regarded as a pretty good player when he played.

  80. BigBlueAL

    BTW I know alot of the stuff I listed is all voting based and doesnt necessarily mean that he was really good I just listed it because Owen is making it seem like Ewing wasnt regarded that highly by fans and media when he played which is mind boggling. As a little kid I was only a big Yankee fan because of my parents since baseball was their favorite sport and thats what all I played as a little kid. I became aware of the Knicks because all I saw/read about was Patrick Ewing and the team he played for was the Knicks. So sentimentally to me he will always be my favorite player ever and is the main reason I became a die-hard Knicks fan.

  81. ruruland

    8– Felton missed layup as Boozer fails to to try to get in front on a pnr, slapping across the ball. 3:54 2nd.

    9–Pnr jumper with space, may have been able to hit Novak. 3:27 2nd.

    10- contested pnr jumper against Hinrich. bad shot, forced shot, should have reset and tried again with 14 seconds on clock. 1:58 2nd

    11– Heave at 2nd quarter buzzer

    12–Pnr contested jumper with 6 seconds on clock, nothing else open on pnr, best shot available. Kidd could not create anything earlier in possession 11:42 3rd quarter

    13–Open floater in middle of lane. Chandler covered. Brewer left open. Open floater with Chandler under basket >>> Brewer jumper when he’s struggling.

    14– Open 3 off Chandler screen, 10 seconds on shot clock, 10:06 3rd.

    15– Open jumper off Chandler screen, 11 seconds on shot clock. No defender pinching down. 8:28 3rd

    16– exact same shot as 15. 8:10

    17–May have missed Chandler on roll but tough passing angle near baseline. relatively bad shot, 7 seconds left on clock. 6:01 third

    18–PNr layup. May have had Novak floating out to 3 pt line but Deng was closing. 12 seconds on clock, 4:25 3rd.

    19– Floater with Chandler covered. 3:35 3rd quarter

    20– Wide open pnr layup, 2:18 2nd quarter

    21– 3pter contested with 3 seconds on shot clock 1:29

    22– wide open 3 off transition oboard 8:01 4th

    23– Floater against Noah, should have waited for Chandler, 6:58 4th

    24th– Felton layup blocked, 6:31

    25th–Ft line jumper, 5:59

    26th–Ft line jumper 3:38

    27th–Missed floater, 3:13

    End of game shots

  82. ruruland

    BigBlueAL:
    Ewing was an 11-time All-Star.He was part of the original Dream Team.He was Rookie of the Year.He was player of the month 5 times.He was All-NBA 1st team once, 2nd team 6 times.Was All-NBA Defense 2nd team 3 times.In MVP voting he finished 4th in 1989, 5th in 1990, 11th in 1991, 5th in 1992, 4th in 1993, 5th in 1994, 4th in 1995 and 8th in 1997.Was also named as one of the 50 greatest players ever and a 1st ballot Hall of Famer.

    I think Ewing was regarded as a pretty good player when he played.

    All of that is meaningless apparently, which it makes it interesting that Owen has yet to respond to those “advanced metrics,” that glew provided us in post 63

  83. Owen

    Not saying Ewing wasn’t one of the best players in the league, or highly regarded. Just saying I never considered him a top five guy in the league. And I don’t think he was ever an elite guy in the league like say Lebron or Durant are now. He was a second tier star. Nothing wrong with that of course.

  84. Z-man

    Interesting, who would have guessed that at this point Felton’s WS/48 would be higher than Asik’s and Lin’s combined?

  85. ruruland

    Owen:
    Not saying Ewing wasn’t one of the best players in the league, or highly regarded. Just saying I never considered him a top five guy in the league. And I don’t think he was ever an elite guy in the league like say Lebron or Durant are now. He was a second tier star. Nothing wrong with that of course.

    Chandler is a first tier star? You are all over the place bud.

  86. Owen

    Not saying Chandler is Lebron or Durant either. I just think the way Chandler is playing right now is the best I have ever seen a center play in my lifetime for the Knicks.

    With Howard struggling, I think Chandler is the best center in the league right now. Which feels pretty good, after ten years where the Knicks didn’t field a legitimata center.

  87. ruruland

    Owen:
    Not saying Chandler is Lebron or Durant either. I just think the way Chandler is playing right now is the best I have ever seen a center play in my lifetime for the Knicks.

    With Howard struggling, I think Chandler is the best center in the league right now. Which feels pretty good, after ten years where the Knicks didn’t field a legitimata center.

    Would that remain so if Chandler took 5 more shots a game at 40-45 percent, taking those shots away from Brewer/Felton, and perhaps even creating a few good looks for teammates?

    Is Chandler a better offensive player than Ewing?

  88. BigBlueAL

    Owen:
    Not saying Chandler is Lebron or Durant either. I just think the way Chandler is playing right now is the best I have ever seen a center play in my lifetime for the Knicks.

    With Howard struggling, I think Chandler is the best center in the league right now. Which feels pretty good, after ten years where the Knicks didn’t field a legitimata center.

    You must have not watched the Knicks between 1989 and 1994 if Chandler right now is the best play you have ever watched from a Knick Center. I mean in the 1989-90 season (the season Ewing was All-NBA 1st team) he averaged 28.6 PPG with a TS% of .599 along with 11 rebs and 4 blocks per game. Also while Chandler is considered such a great defensive Center Ewing lead the NBA in Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares in 1993 and 1994.

    That was the thing about Ewing, he could score (averaged over 20 ppg for his first 13 seasons) but his rebounding and defense was even better. I mean I understand how efficient Chandler is and dont get me wrong I LOVE Chandler. But Im sorry no matter how basic and meaningless you can say regular stats are a player who for 6 seasons in a row averages no fewer than 10.9 rebs/g and 23.9 ppg like Ewing did (along with blocking at least 2 shots a game) is better than someone who averages 12.6 ppg and 9.8 rebs/g while not even blocking a shot per game.

  89. jon abbey

    we need a Brian Cronin game thread tonight, got to keep that unbeaten home record going.

    and yeah, Chandler vs. Ewing isn’t even a discussion.

  90. Owen

    Alright, fair enough. Ewing 89-90. I will take that over any Chandler year. Those are some amazing memories. Which i guess I don’t have as much as you.

    But my dominant memory of Ewing is a guy taking too many jumpers and spending too much time a long way from the basket. And Mase and Oakley, (my personal heroes) were almost as important to the defense as Ewing.

    I don’t know, for me, Chandler, on this team, after the last decade. It’s pretty special. More special than Ewing. Although that’s probably as much a testament to how bad the Eddy Curry era hurt me as anything….

  91. Glew

    amen bigblue thats gotta be the nail in the coffin right there. At the time in Ewing’s earlier seasons I actually thought it was debatable if he was better than Hakeem

  92. Static

    BigBlueAL: That was the thing about Ewing, he could score (averaged over 20 ppg for his first 13 seasons) but his rebounding and defense was even better.

    That is exactly it. You’ll find people posting for instance about the 94 finals and how Hakeem supposedly outplayed Ewing – he did outscore him in every game, but Ewing outrebounded (12.4 to 9.1) , played better D and so on. Which was often the case with E vs top centers like Robinson and Shaq.

    I’d say, if you look at those guys head to head and overall games, not just scoring, he would generally play them to pretty much a standstill.

    As far as Chandler even being in the conversation, he’s just not.

  93. DRed

    Glew:
    amen bigblue thats gotta be the nail in the coffin right there. At the time in Ewing’s earlier seasons I actually thought it was debatable if he was better than Hakeem

    Owen:
    Alright, fair enough. Ewing 89-90. I will take that over any Chandler year. Those are some amazing memories. Which i guess I don’t have as much as you.

    But my dominant memory of Ewing is a guy taking too many jumpers and spending too much time a long way from the basket. And Mase and Oakley, (my personal heroes) were almost as important to the defense as Ewing.

    Oh, bullshit, ruru isn’t even a Knicks fan. It’s ridiculous that he’s upset that people are sullying the memory of a player he didn’t even care about until his precious was on the Knicks.

    That being said, young Ewing was an tremendous basketball player. The memory most people have of Patrick is him lumbering around on shot knees and hitting his turnaround, but when he was in his prime he was an athletic monster on defense and he was pretty good on offense as well. I’d take him in his prime over Tyson. It’s not Patrick’s fault he played at the same time as Robinson and Hakeem.

    As for Tyson’s low usage ‘forcing’ his teammates to take shots, there’s some truth to that, but his incredible efficiency and his offensive rebounding mean that his teammates don’t have to be as efficient. He’s a net positive on offense despite his relatively low usage rate.

  94. nicos

    And what people tend to forget about Ewing was that played pretty much his entire career on bad knees. He missed what, 50 games his first two seasons with knee issues that never really went away- he just played through them. He had an unstoppable baseline turnaround early in his career that he couldn’t take 5-6 years in because he had no lift and anyone could block it. He’s not as big a “what if?” as Walton (who might have been the best center ever but for his feet) but if Ewing hadn’t had those knee issues I think he would have been right there with Hakeem and the Knicks would have had at least a championship or two. Take a look at some footage of him at Georgetown- he was an athletic freak- something we never really saw in the NBA.

  95. Owen

    It’s true. My feelings about Ewing are more about the player he was in the nineties.

    Young Ewing was pretty amazing..

  96. Static

    Chandler could be used a bit more, I agree with people who say that. Especially when I see that little baby hook. But not a lot more, just a little bit. The thing is that Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, all those guys were shot creators with multiple moves. They could not only do what Chandler does, but also command a double team (and score anyway if needed). Chandler is none of that.

  97. BigBlueAL

    Hey like I mentioned earlier Ewing is by far my favorite basketball player ever and always will be so Im very sensitive when it comes to slights toward him lol. Trust me I loved Oakley, Mase, Starks and Harper too. Also yeah Ewing’s shooting in the 1994 Finals really was astonishingly bad but his rebounding and defense was amazing and no matter how poorly he shot his effort on defense never suffered because of it.

    Shame was by the time the Knicks were good enough to win it all Ewing physically was nowhere near as athletic as he was in the late 80′s/early 90′s. I really remember watching Ewing from 1991 on and how by 1994 he was nowhere near as athletic as Hakeem, Robinson and obviously Shaq and Zo when they entered the league. But looking back at old Knick games from the 1989 and 1990 seasons when they made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs for the first time with Ewing its amazing how quick and athletic Ewing was back then compared to the Ewing we all remember vividly from the mid to late 90′s.

    Also even as physically broken down player in his late 30′s his performances in Game 5 in 1999 and especially Games 6 and 7 in 2000 vs the much younger/athletic in his prime Zo was beyond remarkable.

  98. Juany8

    Z-man:
    Interesting, who would have guessed that at this point Felton’s WS/48 would be higher than Asik’s and Lin’s combined?

    Asik was always crap offensively, but he’s a defensive and rebounding monster, I think at this point I’d take Asik as defensive player of the year in a landslide, even if he won’t get that respect since the Rockets aren’t doing anything special. WS and WP don’t even pretend to properly account for defense, Asik is definitely a better player than Felton at this point, and I think he’ll figure out how to be passable on offense (here’s where THCJ will shoot off some point per shot number from his first 2 seasons like he’s playing the same role in Chicago and Houston)

    As for Lin, I do think he’d at least look like a clear cut average point guard if he wasn’t on a team that was awful for his talents. There are not good pick and roll partners on the Rockets, only passable spot up threats, and he’s spending most of his time off the ball. He was never a star and was never going to be a star, but I think he’s better than he’s looked. At least I hope so, I was never a particularly big fan of his but I’d prefer it if the Rockets weren’t paying him 8 million a year lol

  99. ruruland

    DRed:
    Oh, bullshit, ruru isn’t even a Knicks fan. It’s ridiculous that he’s upset that people are sullying the memory of a player he didn’t even care about until his precious was on the Knicks.

    That being said, young Ewing was an tremendous basketball player.The memory most people have of Patrick is him lumbering around on shot knees and hitting his turnaround, but when he was in his prime he was an athletic monster on defense and he was pretty good on offense as well.I’d take him in his prime over Tyson.It’s not Patrick’s fault he played at the same time as Robinson and Hakeem.

    As for Tyson’s low usage ‘forcing’ his teammates to take shots, there’s some truth to that, but his incredible efficiency and his offensive rebounding mean that his teammates don’t have to be as efficient.He’s a net positive on offense despite his relatively low usage rate.

    Please. I’m a basketball fan and I certainly consider myself a Knicks fan.

    Ewing is an all-time great. And as a young Nuggets fan, there wasn’t a whole lot of NBC Sunday afternoon or playoff games to watch of my hometown. Loved watching games at the Garden on Sunday and always watched the playoffs intently. Ewing was a beast,

    And as we’ve seen, it was an idiotic statement to say Chandler is better.

    BTW, no one is saying Chandler is less than a positive an offensive.

    Again, the red herrings with you people whenever the discussion gets going. Chandler is great at the things he does and a huge benefit to the offense.

  100. Static

    ruruland: Again, the red herrings with you people whenever the discussion gets going.

    You mean like logging games with your own opinion of each shot?

  101. Juany8

    DRed:

    As for Tyson’s low usage ‘forcing’ his teammates to take shots, there’s some truth to that, but his incredible efficiency and his offensive rebounding mean that his teammates don’t have to be as efficient.He’s a net positive on offense despite his relatively low usage rate.

    I strongly agree with this, I think Chandler is actually a pretty nice offensive player and a star overall, but this idea that he’s an all time great on the offensive end (or defensive end for that matter) is ridiculous. He only looks so great as a center now because there aren’t any other great ones in the league. Dwight Howard’s been the best center for the last few year, and I don’t know if I’d even take him over Alonzo Mourning, much less someone like Ewing. The guy has been single covered by guys like Perkins and Gasol in the playoffs, compare that to being single covered by Hakeem or Robinson…

  102. Owen

    Also, Harden’s ts% ticked past Carmelo’s last night, just fwiw Ruru….

    Ryan Anderson scoring 18 per at a 61% ts%.

  103. Z-man

    Juany8: Asik was always crap offensively, but he’s a defensive and rebounding monster, I think at this point I’d take Asik as defensive player of the year in a landslide, even if he won’t get that respect since the Rockets aren’t doing anything special. WS and WP don’t even pretend to properly account for defense, Asik is definitely a better player than Felton at this point, and I think he’ll figure out how to be passable on offense (here’s where THCJ will shoot off some point per shot number from his first 2 seasons like he’s playing the same role in Chicago and Houston)

    As for Lin, I do think he’d at least look like a clear cut average point guard if he wasn’t on a team that was awful for his talents. There are not good pick and roll partners on the Rockets, only passable spot up threats, and he’s spending most of his time off the ball. He was never a star and was never going to be a star, but I think he’s better than he’s looked. At least I hope so, I was never a particularly big fan of his but I’d prefer it if the Rockets weren’t paying him 8 million a year lol

    Yeah but these guys are getting starter’s money and are playing like backups. In Lin’s case, I have to disagree. If he can’t shoot and can’t go left, he will never be a decent starting PG in any system. The league has obviously figured his game out on both ends, and unless he adapts (and the jury is out on whether he’s capable of adapting) I doubt that he ever becomes much more than the solid backup he is right now. Prigioni is a good P&R PG in a P&R-heavy system, but because he doesn’t score or get to the line, he would also probably never have been more than a good backup at the NBA level. Maybe someone like D’Antoni would mask his warts for a while, like he did for Duhon, but eventually the league catches up.

  104. Z-man

    Ewing played during the golden age of NBA big men. Aside from Hakeem and David Robinson, guys like Brad Daugherty, Rik Smits, Shawn Kemp, Bill Laimbeer, Vlade Divac, Bill Cartwright and others were really tough matchups.

  105. jon abbey

    one more thing about Ewing: what was incredible about the Finals against the Rockets is that obviously Hakeem was better than him and the best player in the league, but Ewing rose to the occasion and played some of the best ball of his life to give NY a chance, all head to head against the best player in the league.

  106. thenoblefacehumper

    I’ve got a question to anyone in the dedicated Berri camp. Did you get started as a baseball fan? I really don’t mean it brashly or offensively, because it applied to me for a while. I got into baseball before I got into basketball, so I got into advanced stats in baseball (WAR, FIP, BABIP, etc.). I use them actively in my analysis and they make sense common sense wise. So when I got into basketball, I thought the same thing applied. I was firmly in the Berri camp…until basic common sense told me other wise. I mean, do you really not believe that good PG play gets certain players more good looks than they would have without it, consequently making their numbers better?

    Mike Trout would be a 10 WAR player on any team, there just aren’t any interaction effects in baseball. But could a team of 12 Novaks really get the necessary looks to maintain his 3pt%? That just makes no sense.

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