Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, July 23, 2014

Bulls 104, Knicks 99

New York Knicks 99 Final
Recap | Box Score
104 Chicago Bulls
Carmelo Anthony, SF 39 MIN | 8-21 FG | 4-4 FT | 8 REB | 3 AST | 21 PTS | -3

Dude honestly thought that the reason D’Antoni had him stapled to the folding chair late in yesterday’s Philly beat-down was to “save him for tomorrow.” When you’re star player is this clueless, things like “getting beat to a loose ball by Kyle Korver” or “jacking up a completely unnecessary three when you’re only down five” probably aren’t going to register on the self-awareness scale. And when you get pushed around by a guy who’d made all of 18 field goals on the season thus far, well, you’ve probably had a 40-foot likeness of your face plastered above Madison Square Garden.

Amare Stoudemire, PF 34 MIN | 7-12 FG | 6-7 FT | 3 REB | 1 AST | 20 PTS | -10

When I was a junior in high school, our coach was going over a scouting report in the final practice before a key conference game. When it came to my assignment, he said, “you have Geoff, but don’t worry, he can’t do anything.” This is funny for three reasons: First, I was not a good defender; second, dude was so dumb he pronounced Geoff “Gee-off”; and three, I’m certain this is precisely how D’Antoni and Thibadeau described Amar’e Stoudemire and Carlos Boozer’s respective assignments before the game.

It certainly doesn’t help that Amar’e Stoudemire rebounds worse than Jennifer Anniston. He made some nice shots and founding something resembling an offensive rhythm for the first time in eons. But that’s just not enough to take away from his utter lack of hustle and heart on the glass and when the ball was on the floor.

Tyson Chandler, C 39 MIN | 5-7 FG | 3-8 FT | 10 REB | 2 AST | 13 PTS | +1

If you’re Derrick Rose, seeing Tyson Chandler roaming the paint probably won’t stop you from attacking. But it sure as hell’s going to make you think a few dozen times. That is, of course, until you realize you’re Derrick Rose, and you probably shouldn’t be devoting too much time to thinking about anything beyond making your opponents feel like hot garbage sandwiches.

This game was the perfect example of how even Chandler has his realm-protecting limits. With certified sieves in Stat and Melo sending guys down the lane like a Canadian customs agent, there’s only so many times we can expect Chandler to defend three people. He hit that limit tonight.

Landry Fields, G 28 MIN | 5-11 FG | 2-4 FT | 4 REB | 3 AST | 12 PTS | -5

I’ve begun to realize that I get so giddy watching Fields slice and dice his way through the opposition – finishing strong, kicking out with confidence – that I tend to completely ignore his often criminal defensive lapses. Tonight it was Kyle Korver and Ronnie Brewer who snaked their way to open looks Fields had no business giving them. Fields has proven to be an effective option early — playing off the seams and utilizing his deceptively quick first — but tends to totally fade thereafter. And his three point attempt that would’ve brought the Knicks to within two? Coffee and Cigarettes had more of an arc.

Jeremy Lin, PG 33 MIN | 4-11 FG | 6-6 FT | 1 REB | 8 AST | 15 PTS | -4

Another night, another All-World point guard. To his credit, Lin didn’t merely accept the challenge of checking reigning MVP Derrick Rose, he relished it, albeit more in spirit than in actual game. Rose absolutely eviscerated Lin and the Knicks in the second half, despite a robust 27 shots. Lin had his courageous forrays into the paint, but was stymied more often than not. Reading the Stat line over and over again, I can’t help but wonder whether this will become the new mean.

Baron Davis, PG 18 MIN | 3-6 FG | 1-2 FT | 3 REB | 4 AST | 7 PTS | -1

Watching Baron Davis guard Derrick Rose, I now know what it’s like to watch an animal eat its young. I could’ve sworn Davis missed at least two dozen shots, but really that was the least of my concerns. Davis just hasn’t looked that decisive with the ball the last two games, particularly with Lin his back court wing man. It seems to me at least that Davis might be be better served bringing in earlier, but leaving out there with a consistent group of guys. Then again, what the hell do I know? I just ate three slices of pie.

Steve Novak, SF 14 MIN | 2-5 FG | 0-0 FT | 4 REB | 0 AST | 5 PTS | +5

A few sparks, but no fireworks for our one man cannonade. Watching him guard Taj Gibson was terrifying. Watching him guard Derrick Rose made me laugh so hard my nose started bleeding. Then again, he did end up with one more rebound than Amar’e Stoudemire, who is as bad at rebounding as I am at benchpressing cruise ships.

As a side note: He can expect my lawyer between the hours of 3:00 and 3:03 tomorrow afternoon, when I serve him with papers detailing how he stole my baseline turnaround move.

J.R. Smith, SG 9 MIN | 0-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 PTS | -2

I should get this out of the way first: The fact that J.R. Smith was fined for photographing a genuine piece of human art, while Chris Kaman gets away with literally holding up a dead animal to try and intimidate a professional basketball team, says everything you need to know about the league’s moral framework.

That aside, can we please let J.R. Smith have as many women on the road as he wants? I don’t wanna have to count on anyone going through any kind of withdrawal to play a large role on my team — least of all booty withdrawal. Give the man his fix. If there’s one dude you let do and say whatever he wants in order to get the most out of him, it’s J.R. Smith. Otherwise, J.R. Smith commits the two worst turnovers of the entire game.

Iman Shumpert, G 17 MIN | 3-5 FG | 0-0 FT | 4 REB | 0 AST | 6 PTS | 0

Despite a few early jitters playing in front of his hometown crowd, Shump had some nice moments. But even he of the banshee D couldn’t stay in front of Rose enough to keep him out of the lane. For the foreseeable future, Chi-Town belongs — by both birth and profession — to the man without the 2 before the 1.

Josh Harrellson, F 9 MIN | 0-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 0 AST | 0 PTS | -6

The only thing more outside of Jorts’ comfort zone than playing in this game would’ve been attending a week-long conference for transgendered clowns.

Five Things We Saw

  1. Look at it this way: At least tomorrow we’ll get the first photos of Amare’s new Taj Gibson footprint face tattoo. Taj Gibson had 267% more offensive rebounds than Amar’e Stoudemire had rebounds. Chicago grabbed 440% more offensive rebounds than the Knicks writ large. A Bulls towel boy grabbed an offensive rebound. Michael Jordan’s statue grabbed an offensive rebound. Scottie Pippen grabbed an offensive rebound. At this point, we’re used to watching one category define our failure. But never has that one stat been as glaring as this one.
  2. As always, there were some questionable whistles from the jailbirds tonight. But for the most part, I thought the game was pretty evenly called — Chicago ended up with 21 fouls to the Knicks’ 20 — and as such lent itself to some pretty heavy 90s nostalgia. Although that could’ve stopped somewhere short of watching the Knicks botch seven consecutive layups on a key late game possession. Say, with our franchise folding in 1947.
  3. Let’s be honest, the Knicks could very well have folded up like cheap lawn chairs and busted out the excuse rolodex if they really wanted to. Instead, we saw a team that seemed genuinely engaged for most of the game… and not at all in the little moments that mattered. Every loose ball, every jump ball, every weird bounce and every potential break — the Bulls seized, the Knicks ceased.
  4. Derrick Rose can have my house if he wants it. Dude is quantum. He’s not the most efficient player in the world, but for how that team is constructed and how they play, the mind shudders to imagine a more ideal fit. OK, I can think of one, but no one likes him.
  5. These guys just can’t handle this. They can’t. Misfortune is one thing, and the Knicks have had their fair share this year. But misfortune combined with fear, shellshock, doubt — that won’t work anywhere, and particularly not in New York City. They know they’re overpaid and underachieving. They know the fans can’t stand them right now. They know, and they let it get to them. And that’s OK. Maybe it’s a good thing having those two title-winning teams be the only title-winning teams. Maybe in this case legend has to become myth has to become religion. Maybe the more distant those memories, the more holy the principles. Maybe the more the decades go by, the more heartbreaks and tragedies we witness and withstand, the more those teams — what they stood for and how they played — gleam on.

59 comments on “Bulls 104, Knicks 99

  1. Robert Silverman

    Fact: Jim Jarmusch is shooting a black and white feature where Carmelo and Amar’e and John Lurie smoke cigs and look bored while rebounds fly over their heads.

    NO MORE MEAN COMMENTS ABOUT JARMUSCH. HE KICKS MUCH ASS

  2. max fisher-cohen

    Stranger than Paradise is possibly my favorite movie. I guess that makes me a hipster.

  3. thenoblefacehumper

    I would grade Amar’e slightly higher just due to the fact that I was happy to finally see some of his jumpers go down. Other than that he was pretty pathetic tonight.

  4. Gomzd

    Guess this is one of those schedule things, Knickshave had the easy part of the schedule (seemed like they were playing against bobcats, wizards and raptors almost exclusivly) and didnt capitalize. Righting the ship vs this kind of opposition is going to be almost imposible, guess best case scenario is the 8th seed and a prompt sweep by miami/chicago…

  5. Kikuchiyo

    Aniston would probably play the 2. I’d put Chandler (Chandler Bing) at the 5. He takes up space.

  6. jon abbey

    Kikuchiyo:
    Aniston would probably play the 2. I’d put Chandler (Chandler Bing) at the 5. He takes up space.

    not the younger fat Monica?

  7. LMNYKFAN4LIFE

    I’m sorry but after reading chandlers recap everything was blah blah. i cant believe you gave amare a D+ this is probably one of his best defensive and offensive games he brought all year. he hit the open shot, was slashing and dunking, and looked like last years amare. the only thing is that last years amare couldn’t rebound sorry but this was a horrible recap in my opinion.

  8. BigBlueAL

    Loved how Joey Tribbiani filled out his application to be a sperm donor with the quote “Knicks rule!!”

  9. nicos

    Man you hate Amar’e! For the record, Gibson had six of his eight offensive rebounds with Amar’e on the bench and on the only one of two where he was on the floor that I remember, Amar’e actually was blocking someone out (!!!), Asik I think, and Gibson came clean down the middle of the lane and grabbed the board. Three rebound does suck though. Still, he kept them in the game in the third so I’d give him a C. And I thought Shumpert had his best defensive game in the last week or so.

  10. Jim Cavan Post author

    nicos: Man you hate Amar’e! For the record, Gibson had six of his eight offensive rebounds with Amar’e on the bench and on the only one of two where he was on the floor that I remember, Amar’e actually was blocking someone out (!!!), Asik I think, and Gibson came clean down the middle of the lane and grabbed the board. Three rebound does suck though. Still, he kept them in the game in the third so I’d give him a C. And I thought Shumpert had his best defensive game in the last week or so.

    After watching some of the replays, you’re absolutely right about Amar’e not being wholly responsible for Gibson’s antics. But him not diving on the floor or boxing out (most of the time) were absolutely real things.

  11. danvt

    Down By Law changed my life.

    I realize now I was probably wrong when I thought Melo was anything more than Jamal 2.0 (I probably shouldn’t have told Dolan to go ahead and make the deal) but, when he was on Denver, was he this bad? like 8-21 bad, night after night? I can’t recall the last time the guy shot better than 50% in a game. How many times has he done it this season?

    Remember when Michael Jordan retired? It was supposed to be our turn, right? Now they have Rose and an army of fierce, bald, 6’11” rebounding machines.

    We were told to start dreaming about 2010 in 2008. Now it’s 2012 and it might as well still be Duhon, Lee and Randolph. Nice team except not as good as well more than half of the others in the league.

    I know the schedule has been unkind since the break but weren’t Stat and Melo supposed to be good enough to get us at least a couple of these games.

    Thanks for these post game threads, dudes, they make me feel less alone in my misery.

  12. nicos

    Jim Cavan: After watching some of the replays, you’re absolutely right about Amar’e. But him not diving on the floor or boxing out (most of the time) were absolutely real things.

    Yeah, I know but 11 (half) of the offensive rebounds the Knicks gave up were in the 14 minutes Amar’e was on the bench so it’s tough to pin it all on him and not Novak or Harrellson both of whom gave up as many boards as Amar’e in far fewer minutes. Novak you give a pass, but Harrellson has been pretty awful since he’s come back. At least Amar’e did have a really good game offensively- aggressive going to the hoop and only turned it over once. Didn’t settle for jumpers but did hit them when he needed to.

  13. ROUGH

    nicos:
    Man you hate Amar’e!For the record, Gibson had six of his eight offensive rebounds with Amar’e on the bench and on the only one of two where he was on the floor that I remember, Amar’e actually was blocking someone out (!!!), Asik I think, and Gibson came clean down the middle of the lane and grabbed the board.Three rebound does suck though.Still, he kept them in the game in the third so I’d give him a C. And I thought Shumpert had his best defensive game in the last week or so.

    Yes, Amare played slightly better in some respects. E.g. he hit his jumpers. He did that in a few other games here and there, too. The question is can he sustain it?

    Now, three (3!!!) boards in 34 minutes from a twenty million per year so-called ‘superstar’ who plays positions 4 and 5, and is almost 7 feet tall… are you kidding me? Yes, I suspect Jennifer Aniston whould have done better in 34 minutes.

  14. Starks

    i actually thought Stat played well except for that key stretch in the 4th obviously. I also think its on Lin to get Melo the ball in the 4th. Its weird that Melo had 5 boards in the first and then stopped caring. He had a great first half involving everyone and then had trouble getting the right shots.

  15. pearl 15

    Baron played well tonight. Most of Rose’s big plays came against Lin. He deserves an apology for this low score.

  16. ROUGH

    I maintain that the Knicks tonight could, would, probably even should have won the game. They lost by 5 points, which is 2 possessions. Just a couple of defensive rebounds at the end might have changed everything. Rebounds, hm…isn’t that mainly the task of positions 3, 4, and 5? Oh, our primadonnas…

  17. limpidgimp

    ROUGH: Now, three (3!!!) boards in 34 minutes from a twenty million per year so-called ‘superstar’ who plays positions 4 and 5, and is almost 7 feet tall… are you kidding me? Yes, I suspect Jennifer Aniston whould have done better in 34 minutes.

    I haven’t followed Amare’s career, but has he [i]ever[/i] boxed out for boards in his previous years? If not, seems unimaginable he’s going to start now.

  18. ROUGH

    limpidgimp: I haven’t followed Amare’s career, but has he [i]ever[/i] boxed out for boards in his previous years? If not, seems unimaginable he’s going to start now.

    Had his three boards been six or seven, the game would probably have different ending. If he cannot do that, then, as a well-paid “superstar”, he should have stepped up and scored ten or fifteen points more. Again, different game. By the way, the same applies to the other main primadonna of this team.

  19. nicos

    ROUGH: Yes, Amare played slightly better in some respects. E.g. he hit his jumpers. He did that in a few other games here and there, too. The question is can he sustain it?

    Now, three (3!!!) boards in 34 minutes from a twenty million per year so-called ‘superstar’ who plays positions 4 and 5, and is almost 7 feet tall… are you kidding me?Yes, I suspect Jennifer Aniston whould have done better in 34 minutes.

    I’m less trying to defend Amar’e as much trying to point out that there’s plenty of blame to go around. I’m mildly encouraged by Amar’e's play as of late- in the last 5 he’s averaging 20 pts with a TS% of 63 plus his turnovers are down a bit. Also, the last two games he’s played okay defensively despite being put in a lot pnr’s against pretty good scoring guards- he’s certainly trying, still not great but certainly passable. If he keeps that up and just grabs an extra rebound a game, he’d actually be earning a good chunk of his salary. I doubt he’ll keep up the defense effort as he’s never played consistent D in his career. Offensively though, I don’t think it’s a mirage- if you can get him the ball on the move, he’s still a very, very good scorer- now we have two point guards both of whom can do it better than anyone on the Knicks last year so I wouldn’t be surprised to see him post a TS% close to 60 for the rest of the year.

  20. ROUGH

    nicos: I’m less trying to defend Amar’e as much trying to point out that there’s plenty of blame to go around.I’m mildly encouraged by Amar’e’s play as of late- in the last 5 he’s averaging 20 pts with a TS% of 63 plus his turnovers are down a bit.Also, the last two games he’s played okay defensively despite being put in a lot pnr’s against pretty good scoring guards- he’s certainly trying, still not great but certainly passable.If he keeps that up and just grabs an extra rebound a game, he’d actually be earning a good chunk of his salary.I doubt he’ll keep up the defense effort as he’s never played consistent D in his career.Offensively though, I don’t think it’s a mirage- if you can get him the ball on the move, he’s still a very, very good scorer- now we have two point guards both of whom can do it better than anyone on the Knicks last year so I wouldn’t be surprised to see him post a TS% close to 60 for the rest of the year.

    I see what you are saying, Nico. I just don’t see it happening this year. And it’s the more frustrating, the closer we get to the playoffs. Our two primadonnas average around 20 PPG, and earn 20mpy…Yep, one million per point or so. How can I blame equally Field or Shump (although they may frustrate me as well) ?

  21. LMNYKFAN4LIFE

    ROUGH: Yes, Amare played slightly better in some respects. E.g. he hit his jumpers. He did that in a few other games here and there, too. The question is can he sustain it?

    Now, three (3!!!) boards in 34 minutes from a twenty million per year so-called ‘superstar’ who plays positions 4 and 5, and is almost 7 feet tall… are you kidding me?Yes, I suspect Jennifer Aniston whould have done better in 34 minutes.

    not only that but he actually played some d i think he had one off his better games all year except for the rebounding. he really wasn’t much a defensive liability and did block some timely shots and didn’t get burned much today i think he had a great game at least a B+

  22. Owen

    Derrick Rose had a pretty interesting line in a game in which, in the corner of my eye, he was totally dominating. 12-29, 32 points on 33 true shots. Maybe there were some end of quarter jobbies there, but his stat line was significantly less dominant than it appeared.

    The Bulls are kind of like a plus version of the Iverson Sixers teams. Just a horde of tough defenders who can rebound and put a shiv in you And then a guy at the center of it all who is much better than Iverson ever was.

    The line about “fierce, bald 6’11 rebounding machines” I really like…

    And the write up, which was excellent….

  23. 2FOR18

    ROUGH: Yes, Amare played slightly better in some respects. E.g. he hit his jumpers. He did that in a few other games here and there, too. The question is can he sustain it? Now, three (3!!!) boards in 34 minutes from a twenty million per year so-called ‘superstar’ who plays positions 4 and 5, and is almost 7 feet tall… are you kidding me? Yes, I suspect Jennifer Aniston whould have done better in 34 minutes.

    You can stretch out a dead guy on the court for 34 mins and 2 rebounds would land in his lap.
    Congrats Amare, you got 1 more RB than a dead man.

  24. ruruland

    Well, I actually believe this one: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/source_melo_mike_on_rocks_ho7LF1MWCeOPZS7cjV1kJO

    I’m not sure if it explains Melo’s apathetic play this year (and I’m as disgusted with it as anyone), it certainly doesn’t excuse it, but it at least explains why he seems so….out of it.

    This is not the same Melo I’ve watched the last 4 years. It’s almost Moss-ian in his unwillingess to fit into an offense that doesn’t primarily feature him, which is obviously very disappointing because i think he can be very effective in it– and there are ways he can contribute to the game, making the small plays, the hustle plays, getting back in transition– that he’s just not willing to do right now. He’s had issues with this in the past, particularly the Iverson years where things were perhaps worse in Denver than they are in NY, but I’ve never seen him play this lifeless. he’s made the winning basketball plays before– the loose ball rebounds, the multiple effort rotations. His rebound rate is down quite a bit from previous years, and outside of couple of sequences, his transition defense has been very bad (his half court defense is pretty solid,but it’s been much better).

    it’s almost as though he’s trying to get MDA fired.

    You can’t trade Melo with his stock where it is right now.

    Over the last three weeks or so, as Brian alluded to in the previous thread, Mike has been using the media to prop up Lin (perhaps warranted), defending him vigorously while going out of his way to not comment on Melo.

    I can understand Melo’s frustration to a point. This is guy who, while shooting just above average most of his career, was the rock of the offense that created an effective half-court team. He was the horse.

    The wings in a MDA offense, given his unwillingness to bend it, are shooters.

    Gallo became much less passive going to Denver.

  25. ruruland

    People like to talk about Marion as an example of an effective wing in the MDA offense, but for one, so much of his damage came in transition and 2) how much of his success was attributable to Nash’s court vision.

    Fields seems to play really well in this system, though, so you have that. But outside of him, the slot and corner guy in this system are there to space the floor for 1-4 or 1-5 pnr. In that sense, as many have talked about, Chandler and Amar’e just aren’t going to fit either.

    Melo’s ability to create double teams from the mid and low-block is a prized quality in this league. When his head is in the game, I stand by my contention that he’s a top-20 player.

    But his head and spirit are not into this team.I can’t defend Melo for what amounts to egregious crimes against the sport– the effort issues are inexcusable at this point.

    So, I get the sense that MDA is very passively trying to keep his job. I don’t get the sense that he harangued when he should have on Melo, that doesn’t seem to be part of his personality.

    These guys can see the writing on the wall: MDA is a dead duck.

    Trying to re-tool this team, while possibly complicated, isn’t impossible. You have, arguably, one of the 3 best centers in basketball. You have a rising star point guard on the cheap. You have defensive minded role players under contract. And, potentially, you have a top-20 player who can be featured much more, and likely, make Lin’s job easier.

    From what I’ve seen, Lin is really good penetrating againt the rotating defender off of the double team. We’ve seen it quite a few times.

    Every team runs pick and rolls. Any new coach with an above room temp. IQ is going to utilize Lin’s skills in the pnr.

    And unlike Felton, Lin’s proven he can be effective in the pnr without Amar’e.

    I just don’t know how Amar’e fits into any kind of offense that isn’t 4-out 90 percent of the time.

  26. nicos

    ruruland:

    I just don’t know how Amar’e fits into any kind of offense that isn’t 4-out 90 percent of the time.

    I don’t know- when he hits his jump shot his offense is as diverse as any other four in the game besides maybe Gasol. And at least over the last six years he’s been as good or better shooting from outside than guys like Bosh and Aldridge so hopefully his shot will start falling. He’s still really good in the pnr- his numbers are about as good as Chandler’s this year- and he’s an excellent cutter. The only thing he doesn’t do is play with his back to the basket (though he’s pretty good catching in the post and then facing his guy up) so as long as he’s healthy he should be okay in any system. As I said before, the Knicks have finally started to get him the ball on the move- and they’re hardly playing two out let alone four out- and his TS has shot up over 60% in the last five games.

  27. ruruland

    nicos: I don’t know- when he hits his jump shot his offense is as diverse as any other four in the game besides maybe Gasol. And at least over the last six years he’s been as good or better shooting from outside than guys like Bosh and Aldridge so hopefully his shot will start falling. He’s still really good in the pnr- his numbers are about as good as Chandler’s this year- and he’s an excellent cutter. The only thing he doesn’t do is play with his back to the basket (though he’s pretty good catching in the post and then facing his guy up) so as long as he’s healthy he should be okay in any system. As I said before, the Knicks have finally started to get him the ball on the move- and they’re hardly playing two out let alone four out- and his TS has shot up over 60% in the last five games.

    He’s been great recently. No question. I hope that that’s true because I like the guy. I see what you’re saying. And I’ve noticed that even Melo is hitting him as he moves as well– especially in the elbow area. Fields has great chemistry and those side pick and rolls seem to actually be more effective than the Lin middle pick and roll
    of late.

    And you’re right, they’ve been doing it without perfect spacing all the time.

    Maybe all it was was his extra weight??

    Watching the game again, yes the loose balls were killer, I have no idea if they find the extra gear and will to win, if they can find the energy to rebound as a team. But man, they matched up with that team last night. And there are improvements. The half court defense is getting incrementally better. There are still too many mistakes, guys sleeping in certain situation, guys just not being able to match-up, but it’s a lot better. One would say better than average.

    It will be a damn shame if all this talent were to go to waste this year because of god knows what’s going on in the locker room.

  28. taylor66

    The way I see it is that the coach’s style doesn’t benefit the “stars” on the team. No way will Dolan get rid of Melo and STAT and I can’t see MDA changing his style to suit them. So we have no choice but to suffer this embarrassment until the coach is changed.
    Too many teams get these superstars and try to fit the square peg in a round hole. If you trade for/sign them then its on the coach to use them to the best of their abilities. We all know how STAT loves the PnR (like he had wit Nash) and we know Melo is best (if not the best in the league) at iso; if MDA can’t see that and then alter his coaching to suit them then he needs to go. His man love of Jeremy Lin is pathetic. Lin will not take the Knickers to a Championship (as we all know he had his explosion against the bottom feeders); The Knicks have decided that their Big 3 is whats gonna take us there with complementary players.
    From what I see BD should be the starting PG because he has the ability to read the game and get the best out of all of the Big 3; whether you go with Landry (offense) or Shump (D) at the 2 would depend on the matchups. We have to use our best assets to win games; we start that by getting them to enjoy playing and not thinging they are second class citizens to a D-Leaguer who has been fortunatel enough to hit a purple patch at the right time.

  29. Nick C.

    taylor66: The way I see it is that the coach’s style doesn’t benefit the “stars” on the team. No way will Dolan get rid of Melo and STAT and I can’t see MDA changing his style to suit them. So we have no choice but to suffer this embarrassment until the coach is changed.Too many teams get these superstars and try to fit the square peg in a round hole. If you trade for/sign them then its on the coach to use them to the best of their abilities. We all know how STAT loves the PnR (like he had wit Nash) and we know Melo is best (if not the best in the league) at iso; if MDA can’t see that and then alter his coaching to suit them then he needs to go. His man love of Jeremy Lin is pathetic. Lin will not take the Knickers to a Championship (as we all know he had his explosion against the bottom feeders); The Knicks have decided that their Big 3 is whats gonna take us there with complementary players.From what I see BD should be the starting PG because he has the ability to read the game and get the best out of all of the Big 3; whether you go with Landry (offense) or Shump (D) at the 2 would depend on the matchups. We have to use our best assets to win games; we start that by getting them to enjoy playing and not thinging they are second class citizens to a D-Leaguer who has been fortunatel enough to hit a purple patch at the right time.

    I think you missed the main point which is two-fold if players need certain plays and systems then are they really “stars” and if Amare needs a PnR while Melo and Iso then how is it the coaches fault isn’t it the guy who decided it was a good idea to have two “stars” with different needs. But this horse was dead a year ago.

  30. knickspodcast

    Top 5 things from this game that scare me:

    1. Melo throwing a fit when he didn’t get the ball passed to him.
    2. Amar’e not diving for a loose ball near the end of the game when the team is within 5 points.
    3. Everything JR Smith did when he was on the court.
    4. The entire team panicking and jacking up shots with 20 seconds left on the clock starting at the 4:00 mark in the 4th
    5. Amar’e looks like he’s saving his jumps, as if he knows he only has a few left, like that new Eddy Murphy movie where he only has 1,000 words left.

  31. Bruno Almeida

    we can talk all we want about Amare scoring well, it just doesn’t matter, I’m sorry.

    his defense and his rebounding (and hustle in general) are so incredibly pathetic that he simply can’t be a net positive on the court right now, even if he mantains a .600 TS%.

    if you score 23 on efficient shooting and allow 30 on even better shooting, you still suck.

  32. sisterray

    taylor66:
    The way I see it is that the coach’s style doesn’t benefit the “stars” on the team… We all know how STAT loves the PnR (like he had wit Nash) and we know Melo is best (if not the best in the league) at iso; if MDA can’t see that and then alter his coaching to suit them then he needs to go.

    You should try watching a Knicks game this season. STAT does indeed love the PnR, but he’s been a blooper reel all season at it. And I don’t know if Melo is best in iso, but he’s getting a lot of iso opportunities and he’s not hitting those shots this season. “Best in the league” my ass. The dude is struggling to stay over 40%FG. Melo this season is well below league average as a shooter.

    Again, try watching a game some time. Then we can talk.

  33. TelegraphedPass

    sisterray: You should try watching a Knicks game this season. STAT does indeed love the PnR, but he’s been a blooper reel all season at it. And I don’t know if Melo is best in iso, but he’s getting a lot of iso opportunities and he’s not hitting those shots this season. “Best in the league” my ass. The dude is struggling to stay over 40%FG. Melo this season is well below league average as a shooter.Again, try watching a game some time. Then we can talk.

    Amar’e is scoring 1.23 points per possession in the pick and roll this year. Go somewhere, you rude cur.

  34. chrisk06811

    I’m not as deep into stats as you guys are, they hurt my head. Can someone please quote our record with and without Jarred Jeffries? Could the secret be that he and Chandler are the heart and soul of our effort on the court?

  35. Eternal OptiKnist

    We gave away so many games early in the season to the dregs of the NBA that there is so much pressure to win these games. The rebounding was as maddening to me as it was to all of you, but i thought we played well..there was legit effort and grit. I knew we were going to lose the Texas orad games last week, but what was unacceptable was the no-effort drubbing and the fake comebacks…if we lost like we did last night, it’d have been ok. We should have beat Boston, had two hard-fought losses to Dal/SA, won nail-biters in Milawaukee and at home vs Philly and did exactly what we did last vs Chicago. I’m frustrated today because the losses are piling up, but not that we lost to the best team in the NBA at home.

  36. Eternal OptiKnist

    By my count, there are 10 losses this season for which we have NO excuse. If you say that Dallas and LA at home were games we should have “lost”, we’re a net 8 games off our pace. We should be 26-16 atop the Atlantic and in 4th place overall. I’m frustrated at that….not last night.

  37. hoolahoop

    I was screaming for the Melo trade not to happen. I was screaming that Melo was the problem during the “wait-to-gel” stage.

    I took a lot of heat for that. It can be a little lonely yelling the emperor has no clothes, but there’s solace in knowing the truth.

    Now that the world knows, less a few posters here, that Melo sucks. He’s an inefficient, non-hustling, no defense playing, sticky fingered ball stopper with a bad attitude. As I said since before Day 1, Melo will never win any titles until he gets demoted to a role player.

    The knicks need to rid of him.

    sisterray: You should try watching a Knicks game this season. STAT does indeed love the PnR, but he’s been a blooper reel all season at it. And I don’t know if Melo is best in iso, but he’s getting a lot of iso opportunities and he’s not hitting those shots this season. “Best in the league” my ass. The dude is struggling to stay over 40%FG. Melo this season is well below league average as a shooter.

    Again, try watching a game some time. Then we can talk.

    I’m one of the few that still has some faith in Amare. On the offensive end, he’s a master running the PNR. But there’s no one to run it with him. Lin runs away from the screen and misses him wide open near the hoop, all the time.

  38. hoolahoop

    Dantoni has no control of this team. Undisciplined, unfocused, flat, and stupid.
    Maybe Melo is part of the Dantoni problem, but if Melo stays, Dantoni should go. Fast.

  39. Eternal OptiKnist

    Given all the drama we’re going through, 11-13 to close the season should be baseline expectation. I haven’t looked at Mil and Cle’s schedule, but that might not be good enough to lock down 8. If we want to guarantee the 8th spot, we’ve got to win some road games and some back to backs. If we want to move up, we need to get ourselves some confidence because although we have the telent, we’re playing scared now.

  40. hoolahoop

    Jim Cavan: After watching some of the replays, you’re absolutely right about Amar’e not being wholly responsible for Gibson’s antics. But him not diving on the floor or boxing out (most of the time) were absolutely real things.

    I know I’ve been hard on you about your player ratings, and after each of my posts I feel bad that I’ve been a little too harsh with you. But, on the other hand I hold you to a higher standard than regular posters.

    Do you watch the games or make your ratings based on game threads?
    You’re an Amare hater, and a Melo and Lin fanboy. But, then again, that’s the general theme of this blog.

  41. Brian Cronin

    I meant to do this when it came out, but I’d like to take issue with this comment from Bill Simmons’ defense of the Melo trade:

    You basically acquired Carmelo and the cap space to sign Tyson Chandler for Danilo Gallinari and Wilson Chandler. I’m pretty sure ANYONE ON THE F-ING PLANET would make that trade again.

    A. It is more than a bit disingenuous to not mention the 1st rounder in 2014, the two second rounders this year and next and the right to to swap 1st rounders in 2016 (could we please, please please see the Knicks win more than 45 games before they ever agree to trade a first rounder again?)
    B. Not counting Felton or Mozgov is iffy as an argument, but…
    C. Not even remembering that Randolph was also in the deal was just silly. However, worst of all…
    D. The Knicks could have signed Chandler without doing the trade (they would just have had to do the same Turiaf trade that they ended up doing to have room this year)! It is patently false that the trade was Melo + cap space for Gallo/WC. False on the face of it. And when you have to make stuff up to make your argument sound convincing, well, your argument is not very convincing.

  42. Nick C.

    That Simmons quote really pisses me off. This reminds me of this board years back when people would cite all the “improved athletecism and talent” “no more Weatherspoon, Harrington, Eisley, et. al.” and point to the trinkets but have no answer other than to circle back when asked why they had worse records than the Layden teams. If Melo et. al. are so great than why does the teams record suck with them (or really him).

  43. Jim Cavan Post author

    hoolahoop: Do you watch the games or make your ratings based on game threads?
    You’re an Amare hater, and a Melo and Lin fanboy. But, then again, that’s the general theme of this blog.

    I do watch the games. I think sometimes I get into trouble trying to feverishly type notes instead of watching individual players more closely. Maybe Amar’e is one of those.

    You have to take this stuff with a truckload of salt. In the same way that you hold certain posters to a higher standard, I hold Amar’e to a higher standard on the court. Melo might get lazy, but Stat is lazy AND has bad fundamentals (i.e. never so much as bending his knees to play D).

  44. knew_york_knicks

    Broken record here but the Knicks problems on offense are almost “knit-picky”. Yes Lin turns the ball over…A LOT. But someone on this blog pointed out not too long ago that overall team turnovers per game is roughly the same is it was pre-Lin.

    Yes, Amar’e and Melo’s drop off in offensive production as compared to past seasons, is a cause for concern.

    Yes, the team hasn’t found 5 man rotations that gel, but some combos play well together.

    Etc, etc. But I don’t think the problem is their offense. They score enough points to win, even when it’s ugly.

    The problem is the defense. They don’t do enough (boxing out, poor help D, poor transition) on that end to win games. The premier teams in the league play both ends of the floor 100%. This team doesn’t, but that doesn’t mean they can’t turn it around this season. They do have guys that can play D well enough (Chandler, Jeffries, Shump, Fields sometimes, Melo sometimes) to mask the guys that can’t (Amare, Lin, Novak).

    Again, all this has been said before, but as bad as they have played, they are just effort away from pulling the games out against Boston, Dallas, Milwaukee, and Philly.

    I’m still upbeat about this team. I’d rather they sneak into the playoffs, but play their best basketball towards the end of the year, than start peaking right now (although, as fans, it would be easier on the blood pressure).

  45. knickspodcast

    Brian Cronin:
    I meant to do this when it came out, but I’d like to take issue with this comment from Bill Simmons’ defense of the Melo trade:

    A. It is more than a bit disingenuous to not mention the 1st rounder in 2014, the two second rounders this year and next and the right to to swap 1st rounders in 2016 (could we please, please please see the Knicks win more than 45 games before they ever agree to trade a first rounder again?)
    B. Not counting Felton or Mozgov is iffy as an argument, but…
    C. Not even remembering that Randolph was also in the deal was just silly. However, worst of all…
    D. The Knicks could have signed Chandler without doing the trade (they would just have had to do the same Turiaf trade that they ended up doing to have room this year)! It is patently false that the trade was Melo + cap space for Gallo/WC. False on the face of it. And when you have to make stuff up to make your argument sound convincing, well, your argument is not very convincing.

    You should email that to him

  46. maxwell_3g

    Jim Cavan: I do watch the games. I think sometimes I get into trouble trying to feverishly type notes instead of watching individual players more closely. Maybe Amar’e is one of those.

    You have to take this stuff with a truckload of salt. In the same way that you hold certain posters to a higher standard, I hold Amar’e to a higher standard on the court. Melo might get lazy, but Stat is lazy AND has bad fundamentals (i.e. never so much as bending his knees to play D).

    No Jim. You have it right. i dont know what these guys are complaining about. Amare has awful desire and awful fundamentals. His offense is limited and his athleticsm is going down hill. He is our worst court player right now, and whats worse, he has no self awareness of this. Melo is not quite as bad, but more annoying and ultimately is the reason we dont have the Rooster anymore. Both get $20 mill a year. They should get the blame. If I could just wipe amare and melo of our books by getting expiring deals for them i would in a second. i dont need draft picks back or anything. Just give me the cap space

  47. 2FOR18

    Brian Cronin: I meant to do this when it came out, but I’d like to take issue with this comment from Bill Simmons’ defense of the Melo trade: A. It is more than a bit disingenuous to not mention the 1st rounder in 2014, the two second rounders this year and next and the right to to swap 1st rounders in 2016 (could we please, please please see the Knicks win more than 45 games before they ever agree to trade a first rounder again?)B. Not counting Felton or Mozgov is iffy as an argument, but…C. Not even remembering that Randolph was also in the deal was just silly. However, worst of all…D. The Knicks could have signed Chandler without doing the trade (they would just have had to do the same Turiaf trade that they ended up doing to have room this year)! It is patently false that the trade was Melo + cap space for Gallo/WC. False on the face of it. And when you have to make stuff up to make your argument sound convincing, well, your argument is not very convincing.

    His defense, and spin, of that trade as a no-brainer annoys me as well, especially since he’s usually so spot on re: the NBA. (i.e. he was one of the few saying unequivocally that Port should drfat Durant over Oden)
    I’m wondering if he’s just doing his reverse jinx thing since he hates the Knicks.
    I still remember crying to anyone who would listen that the Melo trade was a mistake. I liked that team before the blow-up. Now we’re back to the Marbury/Crawford years and waiting to be under the cap again.

  48. 2FOR18

    Jim Cavan: I do watch the games. I think sometimes I get into trouble trying to feverishly type notes instead of watching individual players more closely. Maybe Amar’e is one of those. You have to take this stuff with a truckload of salt. In the same way that you hold certain posters to a higher standard, I hold Amar’e to a higher standard on the court. Melo might get lazy, but Stat is lazy AND has bad fundamentals (i.e. never so much as bending his knees to play D).

    My guess is that you were horrified at the play where Amare refused to so much as bend down for that loose ball near the end. That play put me over the edge as well.
    As a Knicks fan, all I have to look forward to is your recap articles, so please keep up the good work.

  49. Jim Cavan Post author

    2FOR18: My guess is that you were horrified at the play where Amare refused to so much as bend down for that loose ball near the end. That play put me over the edge as well.
    As a Knicks fan, all I have to look forward to is your recap articles, so please keep up the good work.

    You’re right, I just about flew off the handles when that happened. And thanks for the kind words. Hopefully tomorrow night won’t entail coming to the board to lament and we can all celebrate a victory.

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