Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, September 23, 2014

BREAKING NEWS: Knicks Trade Ellington, Tyler for Acy and (gulp) Outlaw

Image via @MikeKing00

Image via @MikeKing00

As first reported by Sam Amick:

The New York Knicks will trade guard Wayne Ellington, forward Jeremy Tyler and a 2016 second-round pick to the Sacramento Kings for forwards Quincy Acy and Travis Outlaw, people with knowledge of the situation told USA TODAY Sports.

The people spoke on the condition of anonymity because the deal was not yet announced. It is believed that there are other pieces in the trade as well.

The Kings are expected to waive Tyler and use the stretch provision on Ellington, giving the Kings salary cap relief.

Well, we’ve heard the whispers the last 20-odd hours that Phil was trying to move a guard or two. There was even talk that they might burn all of civilization to the ground and then salt the earth so that nothing shall ever grow there again be willing to include St. Pablo of Prigioni.

That (praise Deity) has not come to pass. Otherwise, I’m not sure what to make of this deal. I dig Tyler, but Lord Jared of the House Dubin has a strong counterargument.

All of those things are true. Travis Outlaw’s downright terrible, but Quincy Acy is super-cool, even when he’s whomping our guys.

I have no idea how mini-Reggie Evans might fit into the frontcourt, but he’s feisty (if seriously undersized) and fun to root for, like Anthony Bonner 2.0.

And why the inclusion of a 2nd Round pick? Given the fact that New York’s taking on salary, why the need to sweeten the pot? That’s weird.

[UPDATE 4:39pm: it's not an additional 2nd Rounder. It's just lifting the restrictions on the 2016 pick from the Knicks that the Kings already had. Okay, that's no big deal at all.]

More importantly, unlike previous regimes, it seems that life in the Zen Garden means that there will be no rumor-laden early warning system about any and all transactions. They just drop into your lap on a random Wednesday afternoon. On the one hand, that’s a good thing. The whispers and gossip and gossip-y whispers that used to precede any and all ‘Bocker deals was generally a harrowing, stomach-lining chewing process. Of course, just finding out that it’s done does force you to perpetually keep your guard up for a cold splash of water like this (relatively minor) move.

All things considered, this is just recycling our unused parts for someone else’s. The one thought I do have about this is that the inclusion of a couple of small forward-y people means (possibly) that starting someone that’s not Melo at PF isn’t written in stone. Mainly, I’m just pleased that Prigs is still around (Knock on every substance that even vaguely resembles wood). Your thoughts?

[UPDATE 5:55pm: Tim Bontemps got some quotes from Steve Mills, who's still slinging that dastardly, "Melo at the 3," line. Gah.]

[UPDATE 6:01pm: I STILL GOT THE FEAR]

121 comments on “BREAKING NEWS: Knicks Trade Ellington, Tyler for Acy and (gulp) Outlaw

  1. Alecto

    I had hopes that Ellington could be a useful rotation player as a 3-and-d kind of guard and of course it’s sad to see Prigs go but like others have said he’s not part of the long-term solution. Acy is a decent coup but the addition of a 2nd rounder sours the deal for me–I’d hoped that, with the Knicks being under new management, their draft picks (particularly their second-rounders) wouldn’t be treated like fodder, but clearly I’m mistaken. I’m fairly disappointed.

  2. thenoblefacehumper

    it’s sad to see Prigs go

    Did I miss something? And by that I mean, did I miss the worst possible thing ever?

  3. Alecto

    Whoops brain fart, had ESPN open at the same time and was reading hearsay about us being open to trade Prigs and that mixed with what I read here. Anywho, color me still disappointed. We took on salary and gave up a 2nd rounder for quincy acy and a terrible player in outlaw.

  4. Keniman Shumpwalker

    Prigs was not in the trade, at least as it’s been reported so far. Which is great. As is the updated news that we didn’t actually give them a 2nd round pick, merely lifted the protections on the one we already gave them. I can live with that for this massively non-exciting trade. I am a fan of Quincy Acy’s beard, however, so I’m hoping he doesn’t get waived.

  5. stratomatic

    Outlaw is horrible, but Acy showed some signs of being a good player for Toronto. I don’t mind taking a shot on him. We didn’t give up anything significant. This is a non event with some potential upside if Acy plays more like he did with the Raptors. It’s a win.

  6. Keniman Shumpwalker

    Alecto…we took on 200k and didn’t give up a pick. It’s kinda hard to be mad at this trade. Almost as hard as it is to be excited about it.

  7. Alecto

    Ah didn’t see the updated report re: lifting the protections on the pick we’ve given them. Not a big deal then I suppose it’s a small win.

  8. Loathing

    Can Outlaw be waived?

    EDIT: Trade machine fails it. Sez Ellington can’t be traded with another player. Expires on the 25th. Trade not gonna happen until at least then.

  9. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    Calling it:

    250 posts on “fit,” “system,” and “Travis Outlaw, floor spacer.”

  10. SJK

    This is the definition of “whatever.” None of these guys should get off the bench unless they’re celebrating a Melo 3.

  11. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    They’d be a lot happier if they celebrated a Melo 3-point attempt. And more active.

  12. ess-dog

    Jax just wanted a few guys that have seen actual real non-scrub court time, and this is the best he could do.

  13. Totes McGoats

    If there was ever a time to question Phil…it is now. I agree with the general consensus on Outlaw, and I know next to nothing about Acy. Geez..is Outlaw REALLY still 210?? I always thought his game fit better as a PF. Maybe he finds room as a backup 4 who can get a few offensive boards and swat a few shots coming from the weakside. Not likely but maybe the triangle can accentuate his *chuckle* strengths. And there’s no way i’d want Acy stealing time from Early. Nuh Uh. Nope. And if we’re putting Sacto in a position to clear cap room..why are we lifting the restriction on the second rounder??? We are taking more money this season in this deal for players who I’m not sure are better or even. I’m higher on Tyler than most, though I will admit he’s not a whole lot better than Outlaw. And Ellington can shoot..what team doesn’t need a shooter or 3? Maybe Phil really couldn’t find a better deal..or maybe he was in a hurry to clear the SG glut. Ah well…at least Prigs and Larkin are still Knicks. Maybe Prigs does eventually get moved and Murry returns. Who knows. I’m pretty happy with the Guard rotation as is. We just need a defender/rebounder up front. I would be all for bringin K Mart back..but I think that particular store is closing..so who’s really out there that can fill that role that we can afford? And that makes sense?

  14. Ross the Boss

    Great job Knicks!! They’ve been needing an athletic energy big man for a while and Acy gives them that in spades. He is tough, defensive minded who has shown a new jump-shot from summer league, this could be a steal.

    Travis Outlaw they can keep for depth or release especially with their depth of wings. This Knicks team should not be ignored, they’re hungrier than ever and have a lot to prove.

  15. Brian Cronin

    The Kings were going to get the pick if it fell after pick #37 (otherwise they would have received the Trailblazers’ 2017 second round pick). I think the odds were very high that they were going to get the pick anyways, so removing the protection doesn’t really mean much this time around (the Knicks were awful last year and still didn’t come close to being the 7th worst team in the league). However, since that is two years in the future, I suppose this actually could have made a real difference in 2016. I highly doubt it, though.

  16. dtrickey

    Fairly unoffensive trade in my mind. I’m pretty meh about Outlaw (I will jump on board the cool name rhetoric), but Acy is an intriguing piece. Had a pretty decent Summer League (although history would suggest that means eff all) so will be interesting to see what Fish and PJ have in mind for him. As far as Outlaw goes, he could be a decent floor spacer, but I wouldn’t be too disappointed if he was just pinch hitting 10 minutes a game.

    I just like that we’re now targeting the “stupid” teams (instead of being one.)

    It is a weird feeling that’s for sure.

  17. Z-man

    “They’d be a lot happier if they celebrated a Melo 3-point attempt. And more active.”

    Clearly the jello shots have gone to your head.

  18. yellowboy90

    Acy has a 7′.25 wingspan and is still young so that’s nice for an undersized player. Nothing wrong with having a guy that can make things uncomfortable for other team’s bigs with his hustle and effort.

  19. Z-man

    Hey Jowles, I thought Acy was your kind of player…good shooting stats in college and rookie year, good OREB%, etc…a poor man’s Faried on a rookie deal, what’s not to like?

    As to Outlaw, he replaces Ellington as an end of the bench veteran backup, except at the 3-4 rather than the 2-3 for around the same money, so whatever.

    If Tyler gets waived, are we free to re-sign him? Not that we would want to….

  20. Brian Cronin

    If Tyler gets waived, are we free to re-sign him? Not that we would want to….

    Nope. Which I think is a bad rule, but them’s the breaks.

  21. yellowboy90

    So why not just make the trade Acy for Tyler, $500,000, and restrictions off the 2nd rd pick?

    I realize you want to get rid of Wayne but why do it for Travis outlaw?

  22. Robtachi

    Bob, nice work on the “Zen Garden” term. Makes me want to bring a little rake to my next game.

  23. Totes McGoats

    @14: Elton Brand?

    That would be great, but he’s out of the team’s price range right?

    You know what’s really scary? This article right here http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/58162/position-analysis-center says that last season there was not much difference between Dalembert and Jason Smith as they related to their respective team’s team defense last season. Yikes! Isn’t having a less bouncy STAT and Bargnani up front bad enough? And why doesn’t anyone but us believe Cole should get more minutes? Start, even?

  24. EB

    Acy is a good pickup. Also his last name is first in alphabetical in the NBA (per boxscore geeks sort name function).

    We get some depth where we need it and remove a glut. That’s a good move.

  25. JK47

    Travis Outlaw sucks, but Quincy Acy could be a useful piece. He’s a bulldog of a defender and a decent rebounder, and he’s young. He’s undersized but he plays with a chip on his shoulder, and quite frankly the Knicks need more players with that kind of attitude.

    Outlaw’s contract comes off the books after this season, so no harm done there.

  26. Z-man

    “Acy is a good pickup. Also his last name is first in alphabetical in the NBA (per boxscore geeks sort name function).”

    The best thing about him is his middle name.

    Don’t mess with Quincy Jyrome Acy.

  27. EB

    Don’t mess with Quincy Jyrome Acy.

    Well they needed a ‘y’ in all his names, duh. I hereby nominate y as his nickname or triple y. ( I suck at nicknames)

  28. johnno

    Why doesn’t anyone but us think that Country Cole should get major minutes? Hmmm. Why? Why? Think, think, think. What could it be, what could it be? Uh, maybe he’s not that good and we’re deluding ourselves? Nah, can’t be.

  29. Totes McGoats

    Well they needed a ‘y’ in all his names, duh. I hereby nominate y as his nickname or triple y.

    I second that on either name..lol triple y tho..I think that 1′s gonna win

  30. Brian Cronin

    Why doesn’t anyone but us think that Country Cole should get major minutes? Hmmm. Why? Why? Think, think, think. What could it be, what could it be? Uh, maybe he’s not that good and we’re deluding ourselves? Nah, can’t be.

    Rarely does an appeal to authority make sense, argument-wise, but particularly in the NBA, where Andrea Bargnani is making $12 million a year and was traded for a first round draft pick and at least one second round pick.

  31. thenoblefacehumper

    Why doesn’t anyone but us think that Country Cole should get major minutes? Hmmm. Why? Why? Think, think, think. What could it be, what could it be? Uh, maybe he’s not that good and we’re deluding ourselves? Nah, can’t be.

    His coaches have been Scott Brooks, Keith Smart, Kevin McHale, and Mike Woodson. I won’t comment further.

  32. johnno

    Weren’t a bunch of us on this site convinced that, if only he got some playing time, Jerome Jordan was the answer? (I am among the guilty.)

  33. BigBlueAL

    Aldrich’s potential impact might be a bit exaggerated by some here but the proof is in his numbers, he has been a very productive player in the NBA albeit in somewhat limited minutes. He was one of the players mentioned by Phil shortly after he became President that he liked. So the love for Aldrich is pretty much deserved.

  34. EB

    Well one of Jerome and Aldrich has over a 1,000 minutes of above average to stellar basketball (depending on your school of though), the other doesn’t.

  35. lavor postell

    Aldrich on the vet minimum is a joke. Classic case of a guy being punished for looking goofy when he plays. The numbers speak for themselves. In a league where Chris fucking Kaman can continue to get $5m+ AAV contracts, Aldrich is the definition of value.

  36. Eyal

    Acy had a .257 WP48 in his limited minutes in Toronto, and .110 in Sacramento. Intriguing prospect to get for players who weren’t going to play.

  37. Brian Cronin

    Acy was also part of an awesome video as part of some series about the Raptors last season where they showed the behind-the-scenes reaction to the Gay trade. Acy was totally unprepared. He was kind of adorable. It is also funny to see everyone turn to Novak for info, as if he somehow knows more than anyone else.

  38. BigBlueAL

    Acy looks like a pretty intriguing player, certainly the best player involved in the trade today by far at least statistically.

  39. DRed

    “Right, because you know better than the people making the deal what it takes to get the deal done.”

    -Johnno, defending the Bargnani trade

    “Why doesn’t anyone but us think that Country Cole should get major minutes? Hmmm. Why? Why? Think, think, think. What could it be, what could it be? Uh, maybe he’s not that good and we’re deluding ourselves? Nah, can’t be.”

    Anytime an NBA coach or exec does something it’s right. They certainly know more than we do.

    Don’t ever change bruh.

  40. johnno

    D’oh!! I hate it when my own words come back to haunt me (although truth be told, if you had looked harder, you would have found much worse examples of me defending the trade–like the ones where I said that he was better than Gallo)…

  41. GoNyGoNYGo

    Ellington and Tyler were destined for garbage time minutes on the Knicks. Acy will be a rotation player that provides defense and toughness down low. He’s a good pairing with some of the offense-only bigs like Amar’e and Bargs that are in the rotation. This isn’t an earth-shattering move, but it does fix the balance problem. The Knicks had too many 2′s and 5′s and not enough 3′s and 4′s. Travis Outlaw will only see time on the floor if Cleanthony Early struggles.

  42. Farfa

    Pretty meh trade, as it’s already been said. Still, while I understand that Ellington was not wanted around here, I don’t get how getting Outlaw is anything but a disaster (unless he doesn’t play, but then again, why nab him if you don’t plan on playing him?). To my eyes, he’s in the top 5 for absolute futility in today’s NBA, along with Byron Mullens, Rodney Stuckey, Anthony Randolph and the immortal Bargs (honorable mentions: Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva. As Bill Simmons would say: get me Joe Dumars on two phones!). Kendrick Perkins gets a pass because at least he has two real skills: post-up defense and screen-setting. We now have two of them in our roster.

  43. Sibenik

    The bright side of the trade is that Outlaw won´t be able to score his career high against the Knicks this season.

  44. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    Maybe Cole can understatedly carry the team for the next three years before being unceremoniously shipped out. I love being a Knicks fan, because the disappointment and consequent ungratefulness (David Lee, Jeremy Lin, Tyson Chandler — who else am I missing?) happens so often that you get multiple chances to savor it.

  45. lavor postell

    Tyson Chandler burned his own bridges. Generally you’re going to get traded when the front office can visibly notice a lack of effort and when you’re throwing teammates and coaches under the bus every chance you get in the press so that everybody knows it wasn’t your fault. The Knicks also traded him back to a semi-contender in Dallas where he previously won a ring. Not sure if that’s a great example of him being treated ungratefully.

    I don’t feel any sympathy for the guy and the Knicks did Lee a solid by engaging the Warriors in a sign-and-trade netting him a contract he wouldn’t have otherwise received.

    Lee’s agent, Mark Bartelstein, told ESPN.com that Lee has agreed to a sign-and-trade worth $80 million over six years with the Golden State Warriors.

    “There was a lot of different ways this could have gone and I needed [the Knicks] to help,” Bartelstein said. “They were great about it.”

    http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=5364903

    Having Don Chaney escorted out, the firing of Lenny Wilkins, usurping Walsh’s authority in the midst of trade talks, etc. Those would all be better examples along with Lin who apparently pissed off Dolan for having the audacity to do exactly what the Knicks told him to do and find the best contract.

  46. thenamestsam

    ldrich’s potential impact might be a bit exaggerated by some here but the proof is in his numbers, he has been a very productive player in the NBA albeit in somewhat limited minutes.

    To call Cole Aldrich’s NBA minutes “somewhat” limited is where I start to lose it on Cole. He has 1000 career minutes. If he plays the 30 minutes per game THCJ and others are calling for he’ll practically match that before the new year. And by the way, one career game with 30 minutes played (It was last year against the Raptors and he played great for what it’s worth). Cole has played really well in his NBA career, but to claim that the sample is anything other than very, very small is misleading. He has had about 40% of one decent season, and as much as some people here will hate to hear it, yes, practically all of that was in garbage time. Cole is exactly the kind of guy we should be taking a long hard look at this year, but to hear about half this board tell it the only question is whether he’s Hakeem or Shaq.

  47. lavor postell

    I think most of the board is just of the opinion that Aldrich is more than a vet minimum player and deserves more than garbage time minutes. There’s no way that he should be getting less minutes than Bargnani or a number of other big men in the league. He’s been productive in the minutes he has played in garbage time and in situations where he’s been thrust into a more prominent role.

  48. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    1000 career minutes is a couple thousand possessions. I think that’s enough time to determine whether the guy sucks.

    But I’m not even willing to make assertions about how great he’ll be. I’m just saying that he has played excellent basketball in his 1000 minutes and deserves the opportunity to start, play 30 MPG and prove that he can produce that efficiency on a nightly basis. It’s not proof that he will be a Hall of Famer. It’s an indication that he might be awesome at basketball and therefore should play until he proves otherwise.

  49. Eyal

    So the Love Wiggins deal is all but done. Now tell me how trading Melo to Chicago is NOT the best move for both teams? It’s the Bulls and Melo’s only real chance to win, and the Knicks aren’t going to for the next 3-4 years anyway.

  50. Farfa

    Now tell me how trading Melo to Chicago is NOT the best move for both teams? It’s the Bulls and Melo’s only real chance to win, and the Knicks aren’t going to for the next 3-4 years anyway.

    I don’t think it’s the only real chance for the Bulls to win. If Rose is healthy (big if, if you ask me), Chicago is already #1 contender in the East. If Rose is not, Melo is not the one who could take the Bulls over the hump. Anyway, don’t take for granted that Cleveland will win the East. I’d say that Bron and Love will find each other on offense very easily, but everything else will require at least one year to solve it out, especially defensive schemes (to say nothing of the ridiculous max contract given to Kyrie. I hope for Irving he gets it in the first months and learns that being a 3rd offensive option can give you more energy to spend on defense). To me, next year the East is super open, and I wouldn’t be surprised (well, maybe just a little) to see Miami again in the Finals.

  51. johnno

    “Anyway, don’t take for granted that Cleveland will win the East.”
    I think that the biggest “X-Factor” for the Cavs is the health of Anderson Varejao. With Irving and Love, the Cavs will have two of the league’s worst defenders at their respective positions. If Varejao (or someone else) isn’t there to protect the rim, the Cavs are going to score a lot but will be pretty brutal defensively.

  52. DRed

    Cleveland should kick the tires on some guys like Okafor. Seems likely we won’t be winning the NBA title next season.

    It’s starting to look like Cleveland is no longer the worst run team in the NBA. Is it too soon to say Lebron is both the best player and best GM in Cavs history?

  53. d-mar

    Why are we talking about unimportant news like the Kevin Love trade? Metta World Peace just changed his name to Panda Friend.

  54. Hubert

    Wait, so Love is getting a 5 year max. And Kyrie has a 5 year max.

    So…LeBron is taking a discount when he re-signs???

    By the way, I’d say Minnesota got 30 cents on the dollar for Love.

  55. Brian Cronin

    Isiah Thomas “Lebron James best executive in the NBA!!!” I don’t know if that’s who you want to hear compliments from, ‘Bron!

  56. Brian Cronin

    Wiggins’ reaction to this whole thing is kind of odd. Like he’s seriously put off by being traded for one of the best players in the NBA.

  57. Frank

    an amazing read:

    http://grantland.com/the-triangle/a-move-to-cleveland-and-a-return-to-the-block-for-kevin-love/

    very nuanced and sophisticated. Goldsberry and Lowe are the best.

    I especially enjoyed this, which I assume will cause some sort of a THCJ seizure:

    This is a case where our simplified obsession with field goal percentage (or points per shot) as a proxy for shooting effectiveness is itself defective. Not all field goal attempts are created equal, and you cannot judge a shot’s worth based solely on its probable point yield.

  58. Brian Cronin

    George Karl is strikingly good with analysis. I’m not used to seeing a guy like him write that well. Although he does buy into certain typical NBA cliches, like the idea of Waiters needing to be dealt because he’s a “locker roomcancer.”

  59. DRed

    I especially enjoyed this, which I assume will cause some sort of a THCJ seizure:

    An article suggesting a big man would be better off taking shots really close to the rim? I can’t speak for whatever the jowled cock is calling himself these days, but that shit is in our wheelhouse.

  60. DRed

    Waiters should be dealt because he has – so far – sucked at playing NBA basketball, but he’s still young, cheap and upsidey enough that you could bamboozle another team into giving you something useful for him.

  61. Frank

    An article suggesting a big man would be better off taking shots really close to the rim? I can’t speak for whatever the jowled cock is calling himself these days, but that shit is in our wheelhouse.

    aha – but later in that paragraph you can see how that statement leads into the idea of the Kobe Assist. Which is not in your wheelhouse.

  62. Hubert

    So the Love Wiggins deal is all but done. Now tell me how trading Melo to Chicago is NOT the best move for both teams? It’s the Bulls and Melo’s only real chance to win, and the Knicks aren’t going to for the next 3-4 years anyway.

    Because we gave Melo a no trade clause that guarantees us no leverage so if he wants to go the Bulls we’re going to get fucked in the trade. That’s how.

    EDIT: not that it matters, that’s how it’s going to go down anyway. I believe Woj 100% when he says Melo’s plan was to get his money from the Knicks and force a trade later. He’ll probably do it before the start of the next season when we fail to magically transform our team into a three all-star contender.

  63. Hubert

    I’d say that Bron and Love will find each other on offense very easily, but everything else will require at least one year to solve it out

    The problem is Minnesota did such a poor job getting pieces from Cleveland that the Cavs have enough to make the moves they will need to. The only thing prevented a Cavs dynasty beginning (at the latest) next year is catastrophic injury.

    But hey, y’all go on talkin’ bout how great this is for Ohio and how they deserve this so much while I vomit in the corner, alright?

  64. DRed

    It’s no wonder that when Love misses a close-range attempt, his team is generally in great shape to grab the board; Love is necessarily and conveniently already placed in the rebounding area.

    That’s not a Kobe-assist. Kobe assists are generated by Kobe passes (aka, missed shots) that are rebounded by a teammate. Goldsberry is saying that it’s good for Kevin Love to take shots close to the basket not only because he’s good at making those shots, and generating free throws, but because then his team gets the benefit of having Kevin Love, awesome offensive rebound getter, on hand close to the basket to get offensive rebounds when he does miss.

    Edit: to clarify, the “Kobe pass” is not snark on my part. That’s what Goldsberry actually called missed shots. “I define the Kobe Pass as the missed shot that begets an offensive rebound and thus extends an offensive possession”.

  65. Hubert

    I’ll set the over/under on all-NBA teams Andrew Wiggins makes in his career at 0.5. And I’ll take the under. The bet is one whole drink. Even though I will have to wait til the end of his career to collect my winnings.

  66. Hubert

    Or remember that time in Houston we almost won an NBA title because John Starks was lighting it up with Kobe Passes in game 7? Fucking Oakley Mason and Ewing just couldn’t convert those assists into buckets.

  67. thenamestsam

    Hubert,

    It seems to me like there’s a difference between saying that you personally don’t value Wiggins highly and saying that Minnesota got a poor return. I think Wiggins alone represents a good return for a single season of Love who had already made it totally clear he was going to leave. The first overall pick in a stuffed draft is worth multiple first rounders. Bennett was terrible last year, but there are reasons for it (injury issues, his weird sleep thing) that seem to have been corrected. He’s still worth a first rounder. Plus a future first. There’s no way that Minnesota could have expected to get much more for Love – just look at the other offers on the table and that should be pretty obvious.

  68. Nick C.

    Or remember that time in Houston we almost won an NBA title because John Starks was lighting it up with Kobe Passes in game 7? Fucking Oakley Mason and Ewing just couldn’t convert those assists into buckets.

    Those incompetent losers. Here goes Starks crucifying his own stats to set them up with shots around the bucket and they spit the bit.

  69. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    I actually do think that Bennett will be drastically improved this year. The weight loss plus sleep improvement should produce a tangible, measurable improvement.

    Still, he’s the equivalent of buying a brand new car. You drive it off the lot and it diminishes in value immediately. The #1 pick is often worth more before it’s used than after. I wouldn’t trade him for a first-rounder, not even #30.

  70. Z-man

    Here we go with the Jeremy Lin nonsense again. You mean the guy whose value was so bad relative to his contract that the genius Mr. Morey has to include a first rounder to dump his ass? You mean the guy to whom the genius Mr. Morey offered a contract that Morey himself (or any other intelligent owner/GM) wouldn’t have matched if the shoe was on the other foot, based on Morey’s refusing to match the Parsons offer sheet? You mean the guy who lost his starting job to a minimum salaried D-leaguer? You mean the guy who would have cost $25 million plus $40+million in luxury tax for 3 years of backup-level production?

    Morey offered that “ridiculous” contract to Lin because he hoped that even Dolan wasn’t stupid enough to match it, and he was right. I’m sure he would admit in retrospect that he was stupid to have made the offer in the first place. He probably offered it partially because his ego couldn’t live with the mistake of waiving him in the first place, and partially out of desperation after foolishly ditching two young stud PGs to create cap space for the enigmatic Howard.

    Morey may be a genius in certain regards, but he’s done some incredibly dumb things in the last couple of years, including keeping Kevin McHale on as coach. But that contract offer to Lin was certainly near the top of the list.

    If Lin was a UFA right now, what would he be offered? Maybe $4 million per?

  71. lavor postell

    The problem is Minnesota did such a poor job getting pieces from Cleveland that the Cavs have enough to make the moves they will need to. The only thing prevented a Cavs dynasty beginning (at the latest) next year is catastrophic injury.

    Will be interesting to see. Rumors are they may also be sending another one of their picks to Philadelphia so Minnesota can get Thaddeus Young. Apparently the 76ers are also interested in Waiters.

  72. Z-man

    “I wouldn’t trade him for a first-rounder, not even #30.”

    I’m assuming you mean the reverse, that you wouldn’t give up a first rounder for him…

  73. KnickfaninNJ

    This recent Knick’s trade by Jackson is so different from what the Knicks used to do. The Knicks used to do things like overpay for Felton. But this time Jackson managed to trade unused pieces for replacement level players (that is, average advanced stats for their position) on reasonable contracts. It’s not that he somehow got a fantastic deal from Sacramento, it looks more like a reasonable deal that met modest needs for both teams. And replacement level NBA players are, by definition, relatively common in the NBA. It shouldn’t be that difficult to do things like this, but somehow other GMs don’t do deals like this. It seems like GMs in the past have gone for the big win instead of trying to assemble a coherent, balanced team. It’s certainly a refreshing change.

  74. BigBlueAL

    Cavs will be very good but if you thought the Heat’s D was bad vs the Spurs cant imagine what the Spurs would do to the Cavs.

  75. Brian Cronin

    I actually do think that Bennett will be drastically improved this year. The weight loss plus sleep improvement should produce a tangible, measurable improvement.

    Still, he’s the equivalent of buying a brand new car. You drive it off the lot and it diminishes in value immediately. The #1 pick is often worth more before it’s used than after. I wouldn’t trade him for a first-rounder, not even #30.

    Oh yeah, no doubt, picks are almost always more valuable than the players that end up getting drafted with the pick in question, since there’s always that mystery of “Who could we pick here?” when the answer is often “Nobody particularly noteworthy.” So yes, “the #1 pick” is exponentially more valuable than Anthony Bennett, and it’s why I really thought that they should have traded the pick last year. Same reason I thought Riley should have traded the Beasley pick (of course, in retrospect, he should have taken one of the awesome players who were taken after Beasley, but you know what I mean, at the time none of those guys were going to be taken #2).

  76. Brian Cronin

    Cavs will be very good but if you thought the Heat’s D was bad vs the Spurs cant imagine what the Spurs would do to the Cavs.

    I imagine that there are still moves to be made for them (plus perhaps Shawn Marion signing for the vet minimum) to improve their defense. But yes, I agree that most likely the best Western Conference team will still be better than the best Eastern Conference team.

  77. JK47

    Marion is getting kinda old, and his defense is starting to decline. He’ll be 36, which is getting perilously close to fall-off-the-cliff age. He’s a smart player and will still give you some defensive value, but he is far from the defensive stopper he was in his glory days.

  78. Brian Cronin

    Certainly, but they wouldn’t be asking much of him, ya know? As we’ve seen, a number of NBA players have reinvented themselves as specialists late in their careers and were valuable in limited minutes in ways they couldn’t in full-time minutes anymore (Buck Williams his first season in New York is one).

  79. Hubert

    It seems to me like there’s a difference between saying that you personally don’t value Wiggins highly and saying that Minnesota got a poor return. I think Wiggins alone represents a good return for a single season of Love who had already made it totally clear he was going to leave. The first overall pick in a stuffed draft is worth multiple first rounders.

    But see? That thing I bolded? THAT is the major piece they are getting back for Kevin Love. The hype and imagination that comes from being a #1 pick. They bought a vastly overvalued asset. The 1998 NBA draft was loaded, too. This is like if the Clippers had traded Michael Olawakandi before he ever played a game for Jason Kidd entering his 5th season.

    In one year, I think Wiggins’ value will be drastically reduced, and in 5 years I think we’re going to laugh hilariously at the idea that this poor man’s Iguadola was the centerpiece of a Kevin Love trade. But hey, it’s Wolves, so of course we will.

    I say this because I’ve seen him play basketball, and he is extremely unimpressive. And also his shooting numbers were terrible, too. There is really very little evidence to suggest Andrew Wiggins is good at the offensive side of basketball other than his performances in Toronto area high schools.

  80. Hubert

    There’s no way that Minnesota could have expected to get much more for Love – just look at the other offers on the table and that should be pretty obvious.

    They could have waited. There was no rush. Wiggins’ value is only going to go down once he starts playing and hype gets replaced with reality. But they bought the hype and they wanted this package right now. In 4 months, if Wiggins did what everything Wiggins has ever done suggests he will do, the Cavs would have had to include him AND pony up more draft picks.

    For Christ’s sake, the guy is being called Scottie Pippen 2.0 right now. You think his value is going to go up from here?

  81. Hubert

    z-Man is quoting one of the most tedious points about Lin I keep hearing.

    Just because Lin had negative value heading into the final, poison pill, year of his contract doesn’t mean the entire contract was bad.

    In other words: you may have to give up a first round pick to move Jeremy Lin on a one year, $15 million contract. That does NOT mean that Jeremy Lin on a 3 year, $24 million contract is a bad deal.

    Basically Morey used the two years in which Lin was a major value for himself. Because he was desperate for cap space, he had to move Lin at the lowest point of his value, so he had to pay a price. That says NOTHING about the entirety of the contract, or what he would have been able to receive if he traded Lin in the beginning of it.

  82. thenamestsam

    They could have waited. There was no rush. Wiggins’ value is only going to go down once he starts playing and hype gets replaced with reality. But they bought the hype and they wanted this package right now. In 4 months, if Wiggins did what everything Wiggins has ever done suggests he will do, the Cavs would have had to include him AND pony up more draft picks.

    For Christ’s sake, the guy is being called Scottie Pippen 2.0 right now. You think his value is going to go up from here?

    Sure, they could have waited, but their leverage would have evaporated as they got closer and closer to the trade deadline, particularly if Love’s people started putting it out in the press that he was only willing to sign in Cleveland for example. I mean it’s possible Wiggins would have struggled, but it’s also possible that he gets off to a hot start, the Cavs are rollicking through an easy Eastern Conference, and suddenly they come to the bargaining table with the position that they don’t really need Love, etc.. If you treat it as a guarantee that Wiggins is going to stink then yeah, it was probably dumb to trade for him. I’m just saying that your personal certainty of that fact doesn’t really reflect on whether this is a strong package Minny got back.

  83. Brian Cronin

    I think it’s a fine package. Not amazing or anything, but definitely a fine package. They were going to lose the guy for nothing in a year and there were very few teams that he’d be willing to commit to signing with long-term, so their market wasn’t large and the best fit for them also happened to have a surplus #1 pick available that normally would never be traded this soon in his career. Wiggins is overrated but he’s still very likely to be a good player. Probably not a great player, but a good player and a good player signed to a rookie deal. That’s a heck of a lot better than trading for Klay Thompson and then having to give him a $12 million a year deal because you can’t let the guy you traded Love for leave.

  84. Hubert

    Yeah, it’s probably ok from Minnesota’s POV, but it’s a great trade for Cleveland, and I’m just bitter because Cleveland has too many assets remaining. I wish Masai Ujiri had been in charge of the negotiations.

    I have not found anything clarifying what pick they received. Does anyone know if it’s Miami’s?

  85. Brian Cronin

    I’m about 75% sure that it is Cleveland’s own pick, but that is based purely on the fact that they haven’t said it is the Miami pick and I am pretty sure that if it were Miami’s pick that that fact would be highlighted.

  86. thenamestsam

    Wiggins is overrated

    How can somebody possibly be overrated before they have played a game? In order to be overrated you have to be worse than you are popularly believed to be. Nobody has any idea whether Wiggins is a good NBA player or not. Calling him overrated makes no sense.

  87. DRed

    Wiggins shouldn’t have been the #1 pick in the draft, and shouldn’t have been a consensus top 3 draft pick. Overrated in that sense? That makes sense to me.

  88. Hubert

    How can somebody possibly be overrated before they have played a game? In order to be overrated you have to be worse than you are popularly believed to be. Nobody has any idea whether Wiggins is a good NBA player or not. Calling him overrated makes no sense.

    He was overrated when he got to college. He struggled to assert himself against NCAA competition while playing on a virtual all-star team. And now he’s being traded almost straight up for Kevin Love and being compared to Scottie Pippen. I stand by overrated without having seen him play an NBA game.

  89. SJK

    TWolves fans can look forward to pre-game warmups. Lavine and Wiggins should at least throw down some insane dunks.

  90. thenamestsam

    he’s being traded almost straight up for Kevin Love

    One year of Kevin Love for Wiggins on a rookie contract(and 2 1st rounders, which I guess is “almost straight up”).

  91. johnno

    And, in other news, Greg Oden got arrested today for punching his ex-girlfriend in the face. Assuming that it’s true, how much of an asshole is he? I no longer feel bad about what happened to his career.

  92. Z-man

    Hubert,
    IMHO, Lin never played well enough to justify $8 million a year on average. In fact, it could be argued that he never earned the $5 million he would be paid under the first 2 years of the poison pill deal, although that is clearly debatable. Overall, I doubt that Morey would ever have offered the poison-pill deal to Lin if he thought there was any chance that getting rid of a healthy Lin after 2 years would cost him a valuable asset.

    Seriously, do you think Morey feels that Lin played well enough to justify his contract?

  93. KnickfaninNJ

    I think Lin looks worse on the Rockets than he actually is. He’s a scoring point guard with good shooting percentages, and shooting percentages that have improved over the past three years. But with Harden in the back court, shooting isn’t needed from the other guard as much as defense is. So Beverly fits the need for defense. It’s not surprising McHale goes with Beverly first. In a different situation, Lin could be a better choice. For example, would you rather have Beverly and Shumpert at the guard positions or Lin and Shumpert? I think most coaches would pick the latter, because they couldn’t afford two low scoring guards. He’s probably worth $5 million in that role, given that most starting point guards in the NBA probably make that much, and maybe more, given the way this summer’s free agent market went.

    That being said, it’s odd that the Lakers traded for him given that they have Kobe as a scorer at guard. But they may be thinking of him as a potential replacement for Kobe, who may not be able to play much, rather than a partner for Kobe. And also he’s an expiring contract, which, along with a first round draft choice is a need for a rebuilding team.

  94. JD & the J.R. Smith 4 AM Cleveland, OH Nudie Bar Jello Shot

    I always thought that Oden was a goofy, likable guy. Whoops. Nope.

  95. Z-man

    But Harden was there when they acquired Lin. Part of a GM’s job is to compose a roster that fits well given the salaries and the cap situation. The bottom line is that Lin was not worth the salary he was paid to fill the role he filled. My guess is that Morey thought that if his need to score was reduced, he could cut down on his turnover rate, and rim protectors like Asik and then Howard would mask his defensive issues. I think Morey fully expected him to be a starting PG and paid him like one. It didn’t go according to plan.

  96. JK47

    I don’t know, my take on the Houston/Lin situation was that Morey was just trolling James Dolan, and that it blew up in Morey’s face when the Knicks didn’t match the poison pill contract. It was a case where everybody lost: the Rockets ended up getting some decent production from Lin but at the end of the day were saddled with the poison pill, the Knicks ended up with Fatty McPenguin running the point for two years and Lin’s career stalled in a less than ideal role.

  97. Z-man

    Interesting take, JK. My instincts tell me that Morey really convinced himself that Lin was headed for stardom (i.e. he bought the Linsanity mirage hook, line and sinker.) He couldn’t deal with fucking up the first time by waiving him, so he couldn’t rest easy unless he made the most outlandish offer possible to get him back in the hope that even Dolan wasn’t stupid enough to match. Maybe deep down he was hoping that Dolan would take him off the hook by matching, and was secretly disillusioned when Dolan, for once in his life, did the smart thing.

    If I recall correctly, his offer was the max he could possibly make under the RFA rules. He was so smitten with Lin, I wonder if he would have offered him a Chandler Parsons-type deal if he could have.

  98. KnickfaninNJ

    But Harden was there when they acquired Lin.

    Sorry, but not so. The Rockets acquired Lin in the summer of 2012 and then acquired Harden in October of 2012.

  99. Z-man

    thanks KFINJ, my bad. The general premise is the same, though. Morey seemed to view each signing as an individual event, with little concern about team chemistry and fit in building a championship team. Lin didn’t fit with Harden, Asik didn’t fit with Howard. At least Asik retained his value. Not so for Lin.

    In the end, he missed out on his third big ticket FA (Melo, Bosh) and lost Parsons by inexplicably not signing him to the QO. He basically lost Lin, Asik and Parsons for nothing. If his goal was to compete for a championship during the Howard window, I don’t see that in the cards for him.

  100. Z-man

    I still don’t get why a WP48-savvy guy like Morey would pursue WoW rejects like Melo and Bosh so zealously??? Jowles, what’s your take?

  101. baubo

    The Rockets signing Lin was 100% on the owner, Les Alexander. After the signing it was leaked out that Les basically was yelling a lot of obscenities on Morey during Linsanity. In that offseason, Morey still wanted Dragic but the call was made by the owner. Keep in mind the timing, as this was before the Harden trade. If the same thing happened today, no way the Rockets make that offer because Morey now enjoys full trust of his owner. But at that time, Morey’s GM job was actually less secure than most may think.

  102. KnickfaninNJ

    Morey’s an interesting GM. He has a reputation for being brilliant, and he does get good results some times, like getting Howard as a free agent and trading for Harden; but I think there was some luck involved. He’s a GM who is willing to make big gambles and sometimes they pay off. People forget that right before he hired Howard, he had cleared cap space but gotten no one and there was lots of talk about how bad the Rockets would be. Clearing all the cap space was a gamble since Howard was saying he wanted to play for Brooklyn. But then things didn’t work out Howard’s way and he had to take the job in Houston that wasn’t close to his first choice. Morey gambled again this year by clearing cap space and ended up getting Ariza for Parsons, which does not seem like a big step forward. I think that if you make big gambles regularly, and win just one of them, people will think you are brilliant because you did something they wouldn’t have and it worked out. Z-man, I agree 100% that he doesn’t have a good team in terms of player fit. I think this is a result of his always going for the big score GM wise. I agree that the Rockets are unlikely to win it all soon.

  103. Donnie Walsh

    I think what Baubo and JK say is true. Also, it was tweeted by Sheridan I think that the Knicks would match any offer up to one billion dollars. (Also, Houston had a monopoly on China dating back to yao and probably saw a lot of + value to Lin in the rare event that Dolan didn’t go up to 1 bil.)

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