Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Monday, October 20, 2014

BREAKING NEWS: Knicks Trade Chandler and Felton to Dallas

DING DONG FELTON’S GONE!!!

At 4:15 EST, ESPN’s Marc Stein broke on Twitter (where else do you break news these days?) that the Knicks and Mavericks were on the verge of completing a trade that would send center Tyson Chandler and point guard/flaming tub of lard Raymond Felton to Dallas. The proposed trade has Dallas sending back Jose Calderon, Sam Dalembert, Shane Larkin, Wayne Ellington and NOT ONE, BUT TWO SECOND ROUND PICKS IN THIS YEAR’S DRAFT (Nos. 34 and 52). THE KNICKS TRADING FOR DRAFT PICKS? WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?

It had been long anticipated that Chandler would be moved before next season. Jackson’s triangle offense, a form of which is expected to be implemented by new coach Derek Fisher, works best when it deploys big men who are either good passers or low post scorers. Chandler is neither. Throw in his expiring contract and his unwillingness to play on a rebuilding team – a near certainty if Carmelo Anthony isn’t retained – and it made a lot of sense for the Knicks to move him. He clearly still has value despite two injury riddled seasons where he hasn’t been at his best. Dallas was obviously where he bloomed as a defensive savant and he gets a year to try and boost his value for his next contract. Both sides win here.

As for Felton, the Knicks get to take his 2015 player option worth $4.5M off the books. He wasn’t worth that money and it would have cut into their valuable 2015 cap space that they’ll need to pursue whichever star free agent they decide to target. That money would be better spent on pretty much anything else. I will not miss him.

The package the Knicks receive in return is a good one. The draft picks this year are crucial, as the Knicks didn’t have any prior to the trade. They get a cheap young asset in Larkin. Dalembert’s contract is guaranteed for just $1.8M this season, meaning the Knicks can waive him and save about $7.6M in cap space from the trade.

Calderon’s contract runs through the 2016-2017 season. He makes more than $7M each season, so he isn’t exactly coming cheap. However, he’s a good fit both in the triangle offense and as a backcourt mate next to Iman Shumpert. Given how little money the Knicks currently have on the books in 2015, they can still add a lot despite Calderon’s cap hit. He’s still a useful player, so unless he depreciates rapidly next season they’ll still probably be able to move him elsewhere, if they so choose.

Overall, the trade seems like a good one for the Knicks. They get a young player, an useful veteran, cap flexibility and DRAFT PICKS!!!!!!! And they dump Raymond Felton. Good? Good!

UPDATE, 6:02: It’s a done deal.

147 comments on “BREAKING NEWS: Knicks Trade Chandler and Felton to Dallas

  1. Donnie Walsh

    Apparently, Spike Lee has a radio show on XM radio (which I am listening to now) and he likes the trade, fwiw!

  2. Donnie Walsh

    I think Chandler was worth something, and it’s nice to get a diverse return for him. Assuming he couldn’t bring anything better (OKC 1st rounder?), then it’s a pretty good trade.

    But I will be truly surprised if Anthony doesn’t get a 5 year, +$120 contract from Dolan. And if that happens, I’d rather have Chandler.

  3. ess-dog

    yeah this trade makes more sense as a full rebuild aka bye bye Melo, but we’ll see I guess.
    Larkin could be a very nice piece in the Triangle eventually.
    Would love to grab Patric Young with one of the 2nds.

  4. yellowboy90

    No more Flu-Tyson posts is going to suck. I will miss ragging on his weak immune system but defending his overall usefulness.

  5. tastycakes

    Wow, mixed feelings galore.

    We couldn’t even get a first round pick for Tyson? That’s kind of a giant bummer.

    Is Shane Larkin supposed to be any good?

  6. tastycakes

    I mean, Calderon is OK, but he’s also got 3 years left on his deal and he’s getting up there in age…

    If Melo sticks around, the team should be better.

  7. johnno

    How weird is it that we heard NOTHING about this trade before now? This really came out of nowhere.

  8. yellowboy90

    @8

    Dallas let it be known that they wanted Tyson immediately after they were out of the playoffs. They were always there I just never thought they would take Felton back.

  9. tastycakes

    I also have to say it’s sad that the first line of this post is about getting rid of Felton.

    Chandler was a huge difference maker here for a couple of years (when healthy), I’m going to miss watching him play.

  10. JK47

    Calderon’s contract is the only downside of this deal, but as the article says, it’s $7M per year, and should not prevent the Knicks from bringing in free agents. Plus, for your $7M you’re getting one of the best three-point bombers in the league, and a guy who fits the system really well.

    I hope this opens the door to a S&T with Chicago, with Mirotic coming back as the centerpiece.

  11. dtrickey

    Wow. Great trade for the Knicks. It’s not even a ehhhhhh it might be good/trying to put a positive spin on it good. It’s legit good for us. The picks are a bonus, plus I like getting Calderon and Larkin back. I seem to recall Larkin being on the Knicks radar last draft so I like that we’ve got a young asset back. Plus picks and cap relief and we’ve just about nailed it. PJ getting it done! I will miss Chandler though. Always liked him even before he was a Knick, but I think this works great for him too.

    Questions is what to do with Dalembert. I guess with Tyson gone we have a need for him, but with the cap space we could save waiving him we could maybe grab someone a bit younger and more productive.

    Also with the picks, I actually have a reason to have draft up in the background while I am at work :)

  12. DRed

    Larkin projected as solid out of college, but then was super horrible coming off a broken ankle last season. So who knows. Probably won’t amount to anything, but he’s got more upside than Felton

  13. ephus

    The #34 pick is probably more valuable than the last three picks in the first round. If you hit big on a second round pick, you can sign him to an extremely cheap contract through the first four years. First round picks get (1) first two years guaranteed, (2) guaranteed scale raises for the first four years, (3) very early windows for teams to decide whether to renew for years 3 & 4. Zach Lowe had a good article explaining the advantages for a team of a second round pick.

  14. Donnie Walsh

    Yeah. I guess anything that exchanges old players for younger ones is good (especially in the Knicks situation). Larkin, Ellington, 2 picks is a good haul. I’m not down on the move. And if Calderon was PG here in 2013, the Knicks probably are in the playoffs.

    I just wish the Anthony situation was resolved so that this trade could be properly evaluated.

  15. BigBlueAL

    Have read that Phil and Fisher love Calderon and think he’s perfect for the triangle so looks like he will be a keeper.

  16. d-mar

    The thing I like about this deal is it feels like a deal we would have made pre-Phil…if we were Dallas. I’m assuming Phil kept asking for more once Dallas proposed Dalembert and Calderon, and in the end got Larkin, Ellington and 2 picks in this year’s draft.

    For once, the other side looks like they might have given up too much.

  17. ephus

    When JR Smith was having his shoe lace meltdown, I wrote 10 rules for his future. One of them was that he should study Jose Calderon’s shot chart and only take those shots. Here is a link to a midseason assessment of Calderon’s impeccable shooting selection.

    For those who do not click through, Calderon takes threes and he takes shots at the rim. He takes virtually no mid-range 2s.

  18. ephus

    Here was my January 8, 2014 rules for JR Smith. I commend them to Phil Jackson and Derek Fisher:

    ephus
    January 8, 2014 at 7:40 pm
    In Denver, JR Smith reacted badly every time that George Karl tried to crack the whip. I am all for discipline for JR, but I do not believe that it is even 50% likely to bring JR to heel.

    Here are my rules for JR:

    1. You must know time and situation at all times. Prepare for Bunny Colvin quizzes.
    2. So long as the time and situation do not demand holding the ball, you have the green light for (a) shots at the rim and (b) open catch and shoots from 3.
    3. No step back jumpers unless there are less than five seconds on the clock.
    4. You should be awake for only one o’clock on any game day.
    5. Make your shot chart look like Jose Calderon.
    6. Play defense with your feet. See the ball and see your man.
    7. Party like a Mormon/Jehovah’s Witness.
    8. The only shoes you should touch are your own.
    9. Tweeting – Just say no.
    10. Never pout on the bench during a victory.

  19. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, I think that this is a fair return for Chandler. We were thinking getting a first rounder for him was fair and this deal (a useful player, two second round picks – including the always valuable early second rounder- and pawning off Felton) is basically equal to a first rounder, I believe. I am fine with this.

  20. DRed

    “Three others (Joe Smith, Andrea Bargnani and Andrew Bogut) became quality starters for a few years. ”

    -Bill Simmons, surrendering his last shred of credibility as an analyst

  21. BigBlueAL

    Chris Herring just tweeted:

    I’m hearing the Knicks are trying to move Dalembert and Larkin in a separate deal, according to a person familiar with the matter.

  22. mokers

    I think this is a good haul for the Knicks. Don’t love Calderon’s contract, but if that is the price to pay to get Felton off the team, so be it. Calderon seems to be a great fit for the triangle. he can play PG, but is good enough to spot up and hit open 3s. Dalembert is only good for 18-20 minutes a game, but is serviceable. The 34th pick could mean something in a deep draft and 51 can be used on somebody who falls. Larkin is young and may have some upside, but he and Ellington can be cut without too much worry if they are not good.

    Can’t decide if this is part of a move to make Carmelo want to stay or something the Knicks are doing in preparation for him leaving. Sucks losing Tyson, but it is interesting to see how the roster is shaping up.

  23. Kahnzy

    I’m fine moving Dalembert in another deal. that move is totally Cole with me

    I see what you did there…

    …I’d even be Cole with Adlrich starting next season now that Chandler’s gone.

  24. BigBlueAL

    Sounds like Phil aint close to being done making trades this off-season. Gonna be an interesting next couple of weeks and thats not even considering whatever happens with Melo.

  25. massive

    If both sides are serious about Melo for Harden, why not Harden AND Parsons for Melo and Shump?

    I was thinking we could move Dalembert and Larkin to a team for a 1st round pick, but a team would have to be high enough on Larkin to make that a possibility. I like Larkin, but I’d prefer to sign Patty Mills. Calderon is a very nice piece, though. He’s quietly been one of the 10-15 best point guards in the league for a long time.

  26. ephus

    If both sides are serious about Melo for Harden, why not Harden AND Parsons for Melo and Shump?

    If the Knicks end up above the Apron ($81 million), they cannot take back Parsons in a double S&T.

  27. yellowboy90

    Can they send Dalembert back to Milwaukee with Larkin for Middleton and the 31/48 picks?

  28. Donnie Walsh

    If the Knicks end up above the Apron ($81 million), they cannot take back Parsons in a double S&T.

    End up when? On July 1st? Or at the time of the presumed trade?

  29. maxwell_3g

    my analysis:
    1) Yes, Calderon has 3 years left, but he us a decent player and seems like good fit for the triangle. better to pay money to a useful player rather than to a useless one
    2) COOOLLLLEEE TRAIN!!!!! I would eb so have if he gets 22 minutes (and fouls out) every night. also, i guess we are keeping Tyler?
    3) Which PG is out? I think we are keeping Jose and dare I say…..i hope we keep Toure over Prigs….please don’t flog me KB. I imagine Calderon getting some burn at the 2 and Toure and Shane having stints at the point
    4) Dalembert may be a really good pickup. teams are rushing to shed salary to get lebron/melo. trade him for matching contract x and a pick (Houston?, LA?)

  30. thenoblefacehumper

    Wow, this is pretty crazy. My first reaction was that ‘Melo is gone but if he re-signs I could see the team actually being a lot better. Dalembert and Chandler were pretty similar last season according to both WP and WS (WP/48 had Chandler at .222 with Dalembert at .192, WS/48 was pretty much identical). Calderon is worlds better than Felton, Ellington should help, Larkin could develop, and PICKS!!!! There’s a lot to like about this trade. Solid “A” for Phil’s first move.

  31. ephus
    If the Knicks end up above the Apron ($81 million), they cannot take back Parsons in a double S&T.

    End up when? On July 1st? Or at the time of the presumed trade?

    It is measured as of the completion of the trade.

  32. stratomatic

    I was a HUGE fan of a healthy Tyson Chandler, but I like this move. He hasn’t been the same for more than a season now. Sure, he may come back to close to his peak, but he may just be on a permanent decline or get hurt again. IMO the Calderon contract is fine. We needed a good PG and now we have one at a reasonable price. I also think he’s a good fit next to Shumpert if we keep him. They also have two 2nd round picks and Larkin to try to get into the first round if there’s a player they have their eye on. Dalembert is a bit of a headcase, but at that price and with a team option this is fine. Felton GONE!!!! One down and JR Smith to go.

  33. The Ghost of Ted Nelson

    I’m fine moving Dalembert in another deal.

    Dalembert was actually a highly productive player last year. He had a career TS% last year, and a career high WS/48. He also played in 80 games (though he only averaged 20 mins per game). If the Knicks simply substituted 2013/14 Chandler for 2013/14 Dalembert they wouldn’t have missed out on much.

    And replacing 2013/14 Felton with 2013/14 Calderon would have been huge. Like, +5 playoff wins huge.

    But, unfortunately, the Knicks need to be looking not at 2013, or 2014, or even 2015, but at 2016 and beyond, so the only real benefit here is what Phil can do with the assets of Larkin, Ellington, and two 2nd rounders, which isn’t much, but it’s better than what he started with.

  34. DRed

    Ted, we (will hopefully) have Cole Aldrich, who was the best player on the Knicks by WS/48. All aboard!

  35. GoNyGoNYGo

    I will miss Tyson Chandler. He was a WARRIOR! I know that Cuban hated to lose him. So do I but the move had to be done.

    Chandler > Dalembert
    Caldaron > Felton
    We lose a center and gain a point guard. From that standpoint it’s a wash. I hate Dalembert as much as I hate Felton.

    It’s the rest of the trade that makes this interesting. Larkin+Ellington+2 picks makes this a win.

    I’ve heard the same rumors about the Knicks trying to flip Larkin and Dalembert. I would love to see what that turns into. Larkin is interesting. Lots of people were high on him coming out last year but the foot injury slowed him. Someone out there may value him a lot.

    OK. Basketball is back!!!!

  36. massive

    I’m going to thoroughly enjoy rooting for Jose Calderon. He’s a living, breathing point guard. And he has a jumper. And I’d be comfortable with Cole Aldrich and Amar’e Stoudemire as starting bigs.

    An interesting dynamic is the Calderon/Bargnani dynamic. Those two were teammates in Toronto and apparently got along well. Hopefully they can get along just as well with Calderon playing 32 minutes and Bargs waving a towel.

  37. ephus

    Here is the irony. Mark Cuban traded away Tyson Chandler and broke up the chance to defend the title because he thought the last years of the Chandler’s contract would be too restrictive. In the meanwhile, the Mavs have missed out on all of the major FAs they pursued with their cap space. (Probably to their benefit with Deron Williams).

    Now, the Mavs are choosing to take on the last (and most expensive) year of Chandler’s contract.

  38. yellowboy90

    Side note: If I’m the Cavs I would do the Orlando Trade and take Embiid or Vonleh at 4. One of them to go along with Afflalo plus the 12th pick seems like a steal.

  39. ess-dog

    I’m scared at how Bargs might fit into plans. If he’s the starting center come October…. Eesh

  40. thenoblefacehumper

    The more I think about this the more excited I get. Larkin’s 489 minutes last year (coming off a broken foot) shouldn’t make anyone forget how good he was in college. If they can move him and the picks to get in a position to maybe draft Anderson I’d be okay with that, but I think I’d like to hang on to him otherwise. If ‘Melo comes back we’re much better than last year without surrendering and real flexibility, and if he doesn’t we still made a good trade given that Chandler was expiring anyway.

  41. Owen

    A little sad to see the Tyson Chandler era end but he doesn’t belong on the Knicks next year. I am really happy he finds himself back on a contending, well run team where they will use him effectively.
    The trade seems like a decent return. I actually prefer the two early second rounders to one late first rounder. Dalembert is also decent enough that I wouldn’t mind having him or trading him if we get something decent back. Everyone seems mystified why Dallas did this deal but it seems pretty obvious to me that they expect big things from Chandler. And why not? He’s been great when healthy.
    Was listening to sports radio on the way home and was shocked to hear how everyone was killing Chandler. Michael Kay was leading that charge. I still don’t understand it. Chandler was a beast for a couple of seasons and basically the only intelligent big ticket signing the Knicks have made in the last 15 years. How people can knock a guy who came here and won a DPOY and helped us to our first 50 win season in a long time, I really don’t know. Yes, last year was bad and he may have “quit” on the team a bit, but you’d have to be a little insane not to quit on Mike Woodson and the crapheap that was our team last year.
    I have two jerseys in my closet, David Lee and Tyson Chandler, and I feel proud of that. I wish him the best and will be rooting for him next year in Dallas.

  42. BigBlueAL

    Kevin Pelton just put out an article grading the trades and the Knicks got the higher grade!! C+ for Mavs and B+ for the Knicks!! Knicks win a trade its a miracle lol.

    It seems like there is very little chance Dalembert is with the Knicks come training camp, either he will be traded or released from all indications Ive read.

  43. Kahnzy

    I’m all aboard the Cole Train Express…but how well does he fit in the triangle? I’ve never noticed him to be a particularly adept passer, and he doesn’t have a post game to speak of. Oh well, I’m still riding the high of getting rid of Felton.

  44. Mr. Jowles, who commands your respect

    The Mount Rushmore of post-Jeff Van Gundy Knicks:

    David Lee, Tyson Chandler, Jeremy Lin … and Cole Aldrich (spot reserved)

  45. massive

    The Mount Rushmore of post-Jeff Van Gundy Knicks:

    David Lee, Tyson Chandler, Jeremy Lin … and Cole Aldrich (spot reserved)

    Cole can’t have Pablo’s spot.

  46. DRed

    Cole doesn’t fit in the triangle. . .the triangle fits around Cole.

    I will miss Tyson smashing lobs. How he got blamed for not trying on defense on a team with Melo, Stat, JR, Felton, Bargs and Hardaway I will never understand, but he’s fragile, 31, expensive, and wasn’t going to be around after next season anyhow.

  47. massive

    Hating Tyson Chandler is as irrational as hating Amar’e, IMO. Two class acts and the two best players on the team when healthy. I’m hoping Amar’e will stay healthy this season and be the .596 TS% guy he was last season.

  48. BigBlueAL

    Yeah, no reason to hate Chandler at all and celebrate his exit. Granted also no need to go overboard and call him the best Knick since Ewing and attribute every ounce of the 54 win season success to him either but there is a good in between where you can love and appreciate what Chandler did for the Knicks but not be too sad to see him go.

  49. Z-man

    Farewell, Tyson. We’ll miss…well, never mind.

    Good riddance, Ray.

    After dreading it, can’t wait for the draft now! Nice move, Jax.

    Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And a good thing never dies.
    –Andy Dufresne

  50. DRed

    From the Pelton article:

    “On the perimeter, Felton has been an average defender for a point guard as measured by ESPN’s Real Plus-Minus (-1.2 points per 100 possessions). ”

    YOUR MODEL IS INVALID

  51. massive

    Yeah, no reason to hate Chandler at all and celebrate his exit. Granted also no need to go overboard and call him the best Knick since Ewing and attribute every ounce of the 54 win season success to him either but there is a good in between where you can love and appreciate what Chandler did for the Knicks but not be too sad to see him go.

    Agreed.

  52. massive

    Felton? Average defender? We probably win 60 games in 2012-2013 if he didn’t get torched nightly and could handle his match up competently.

  53. johnno

    Knicks now have 9 guards on the roster. I have no clue what the next move is but my bet is that one or more won’t be on the team by this time tomorrow. On another note I real one rumor that claimed that, according to “sources,” LeBron’s preference is, in order, Heat, Cavs, Knicks…

  54. ephus

    If you click through to the link from BBA’s post, you will see that the cognoscenti are speculating that the Knicks are trying to get under the Apron so that they can take back a newly signed FA in a Double S&T for Carmelo Anthony.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2109960-tyson-chandler-trade-shows-knicks-preparing-for-life-without-carmelo-anthony

    Here is a crazy thought. The Knicks and Lakers could make a double S&T that makes sense for both sides. Knicks send Carmelo to the Lakers for Steve Nash’s expiring contract ($9.7 million) and Pau Gasol (signed to 1 year for $8.3 million). This can work because the Knicks would be under the Apron after the trade.

    Either Steve Nash retires (he has said he will not leave LA because of child custody issues) and frees the Knicks of his salary cap, or he is a one-year rotation back up for Calderon. Knicks get Gasol and his Bird rights so that they could use him to try to lure Mark Gasol in the summer of 2015. Lakers do better with the S&T then signing Carmelo with cap space, because they get to ditch Nash’s salary.

  55. lavor postell

    @ephus

    We would I assume push for the No. 7 pick in your scenario.

    Also is there a scenario in which we could acquire Chandler Parsons then? Are there any other RFA’s that could potentially be available?

  56. GoNyGoNYGo

    @46 Owen

    Was listening to sports radio on the way home and was shocked to hear how everyone was killing Chandler. Michael Kay was leading that charge. I still don’t understand it.

    I’ve been seething after listening to Kay and LaGreca since Monday. I agree with them that people who are knocking Anthony are wrong, but they are wrong for blaming Amar’e and Chandler. When the Knicks signed Amar’e they became relevant. We were chanting MVP at the garden. Chandler has been ferocious. He brought defense back. And when last season started, he looked like a man possessed. The injury derailed him big time and yeah, he wasn’t himself the rest of the day.

    We have to remember that talk show hosts don’t think like real fans. They are talking to the masses. I come to this blog for intelligent discussion.

  57. lavor postell

    Guys Chandler made $14.5m last season. If Melo is going to take shit for that sad sack of a team which he deserves so does Tyson and his penchant, last season, for throwing everybody under the bus. Give me a break this is New York, not fucking OKC where apparently a Mr. Unreliable headline warrants much hand wringing. Chandler was really good until he stopped giving a shit. He’s going back to Dallas where he should be much more motivated by being on playoff caliber team and because he’s in a contract year.

  58. BigBlueAL

    Great tweet by Isola of all people:

    The addition of Jose Calderon means significantly less arm waving and complaining from the point guard position after every call & non call.

  59. Frank

    Ephus I am loving the idea of Melo for Gasol, Nash, and #7. Loving it. We could even throw in #34 and I think i would still be happy.

  60. ephus

    Knicks could try to put something together for a double S&T with Parsons. If you assume that Parsons is going to get 4/40, the Lin/Asik/Parsons combo would be getting approximately $26.5 million. Knicks would need to send out around $31.5 million to get under the Apron. Melo ($22.5) + JR Smith ($6.0) + Shumpert ($2.8) is really close to making it work. Teams could fiddle with numbers for Parsons and Carmelo Anthony to get pieces to fit.

  61. GoNyGoNYGo

    PG: Calderon, Prigioni, Larkin
    SG: JR Smith, Hardaway jr, Ellington
    SF: Shumpert,
    PF: Stoudemire, Odom, Tyler
    C: Dalembert, Bargnani

    Is this the new depth chart?????

  62. Frank

    I somehow feel strongly that Pau is going to end up here. His buddy Calderon is here. Phil and Fish are here. And I can’t imagine that dalembert is really going to be our center. Whether it’s on a mini MLE or part of some cockamamie sign and trade, it feels right.

  63. Jack Bauer

    “An interesting dynamic is the Calderon/Bargnani dynamic. Those two were teammates in Toronto and apparently got along well. Hopefully they can get along just as well with Calderon playing 32 minutes and Bargs waving a towel.”

    Nice…. Getting younger, getting a couple of picks, and saying adios to Felton make this a large win. Calderon is an immediate upgrade at the point, a little pricey, but you have to give on something.

  64. Brian Cronin

    Rough article by Ian Begley about how the trade could help keep Melo, because it could make it so that the Knicks would be under the salary cap, which would free up other exemptions.

    Depending on if they decide to waive Dalembert or not, the Knicks might also end up under the salary cap. If they do end up under the cap, they might be able to use a larger exception than the taxpayer exception (which starts at $3 million), which is currently at their disposal, in free agency this summer.

    This might help them attract another significant rotation player to New York and, in turn, make Carmelo more apt to re-sign.

    It is crazy how much misinformation that there is out there about the cap.

  65. Frank

    By the way – the fact that we ended up with the least high profile players in a trade, shed salary, and picked up draft picks tells you that Phil really is in charge. Hopefully it stays that way when it comes to talking to Melo.

  66. stratomatic

    Owen,

    I listen to Michael Kay all the time. He’s a very likable guy. I enjoy the show and his interviews. But as a basketball analyst he falls into the category I consider as wildly overrating PPG and wildly underrating or not really understanding scoring efficiency. He thinks Chandler sucks because all he can do on offense is finish on the P&R. The fact that he can do it for 10-12 points a night at a 65%-70% efficiency means nothing to him. He doesn’t think of scoring in terms of possessions. That’s why he thinks Melo is a superstar and can’t even comprehend why some people question his shot selection, ball holding etc..

  67. alsep73

    Now that we actually have draft picks again, I allowed myself for the first time to look at a mock draft, starting with DraftExpress. At this moment, their #34 selection (presumably picked before this trade):

    Glenn Robinson III.

    New Knick direction: second-generation players only!

  68. nicos

    While I’m okay with the trade but anyone complaining about Felton’s defense can’t have watched much of Calderon- he makes Felton look like Patrick Beverly. I’m hoping the big drop in his assist numbers is due to playing alongside a ball-dominant two in Monte Ellis though even if he’s completely lost his ability to penetrate he’ll still be a better fit in the triangle offense than Felton could ever be. Still, I don’t consider Calderon any more than a stop-gap guy- his defense is bad enough that I don’t think you can build a real winner with him at the point.

  69. Owen

    Re Michael Kay, I don’t listen to him all that much but I picked up that he doesn’t know too much about basketball.

    I still don’t get how Tyson makes such a ready scapegoat. But whatever, he’s gone now to somewhere they appreciate him….

  70. Z-man

    Frank, we only shed salary in the short run. Good trade, though.

    Calderon is at worst a SG version of Steve Novak at his best, and at best a PG version of Mike Miller at his worst.
    Dalembert is a slightly weaker version of Chandler at 20% of the price, or a very tradeable asset, or a painless cut.
    Larkin is a cheap flyer.
    Ellington is end-of-bench filler.
    The 2 2nd rounders make us players in this deep draft.

    Felton, who had servicable stretches, is totally worthless.

    Chandler is not a bum. He was brilliant in stretches, and it’s not his fault we sucked this year. But he was a total bust in his 2 playoff appearances by way of being injured or sick at critical times. Bad luck, maybe, but still. It was like going on a 2-week vacation to a beautiful tropical resort, only to have shitty weather at critical times. It’s not the resort’s fault, but it still leaves a bitter taste.

  71. Z-man

    Whose faces are on the Knicks WP48-overrated Mt. Rushmore? Chandler, Fields, Brewer, Jordan?

  72. stratomatic

    I still don’t get how Tyson makes such a ready scapegoat. But whatever, he’s gone now to somewhere they appreciate him….

    If you start out thinking Melo is an elite superstar that had a great year (as much of the mainstream believes) but the still Knicks sucked, then Chandler must have sucked. So they look at Chandler and nitpick everything he doesn’t do at an elite level.

    People start with what they believe and then twist, spin, and ignore facts to make them fit their conclusion instead of the other way around.

    All of which is not to say the Knicks were bad because of Melo. IMO, Melo had a career year. Sure wasn’t his fault they were bad. But a career year by Melo isn’t as valuable as perceived and Chandler wasn’t nearly as bad as Kay thinks.

  73. stratomatic

    Whose faces are on the Knicks WP48-overrated Mt. Rushmore? Chandler, Fields, Brewer, Jordan?

    Good question. Not sure, but they wold make good bookends with the faces of overrated scorers.

  74. Z-man

    Strat, I’ll ask you the same question that I askede Jowles and never got an answer for:

    How come no coach or team has figured out how to get Chandler more than 7.8 shots per game?

    My answer:

    It’s because his efficiency would drop off a cliff if he took any more shots.

    So others get blamed for taking the necessary shots at a lower efficiency.

    Chandler is a terrible offensive player. The thing that makes him valuable is, he knows it. He cherry picks.

    On some teams that works. On others, it doesn’t.

    It certainly doesn’t work when the opposing C destroys him on the other end, like Hibbert did.

  75. Totes McGoats

    I really like this trade. Understatement, I know..but wow! How Phil and Mills pulled that off with 2 declining players is bewildering. Chandler does still have solid value but he is declining. Forget the draft pick and cap space for a second..we got Larkin too? He is essentially our 1st rounder this year. If he develops as hoped and we can move JR, I’d say Phil has done a helluva job in year one. Solid move. Stopgap PG, PG of the future, picks, and cap space for Chandler and Felton. I’m a happy Knick fan today.

  76. Z-man

    So Jowles is on record as saying that Anderson should be the #1 pick overall. Just like he was on record saying that Faried should have been the #1 pick overall. Who’s the rest of your top 5, O Respected One?

  77. ess-dog

    Maybe we’ll grab this kid Walter Tavares in the 2nd round? He sounds like a young Tyson Chandler. 7’3″!!! 7’9″ wingspan!!!

  78. Mr. Jowles, who commands your respect

    You know what Chandler was that Carmelo will never be?

    One of the two most valuable players on a championship team. Say all you want about the doomed-from-the-start 2013-14 season, but Chandler was never this team’s problem.

  79. alsep73

    Asik reportedly on the move to New Orleans for a first rounder, per Woj. Gives Houston cap space. Does it make Melo sign-and-trade to Houston less likely?

  80. Mr. Jowles, who commands your respect

    I’m not saying that Anderson is a #1 pick. Embiid is clearly the #1, even with this injury.

    Looking at Anderson’s numbers, it’s hard not to get excited. And regarding his highlight reels: although his “open floor” speed looks like a YMCA player, his court vision is unteachable. He really does look like Magic Johnson at times.

  81. Z-man

    Not according to your all-knowing metric, which overvalues players that only take point-blank shots. Again, I challenge you to explain to me how it’s not Chandler’s fault when he defers to players who shoot at a lower efficiency than he does.

    Chandler would have won nothing without Dirk, Kidd, Marion, et. al. on that team. That was proven here in NY. He didn’t elevate Amare or Melo, he forced them to take more shots.

  82. Z-man

    So, is Anderson #2? #3? Play GM and give us your top 5 so we can have more fun in a couple of years…

  83. Mr. Jowles, who commands your respect

    hahaha

    “forced them to take more shots”

    delusional still

    bro, you wanted Andrea Bargnani on the Knicks

    give it up

    ur bad at looking at basketball

  84. lavor postell

    Asik reportedly on the move to New Orleans for a first rounder, per Woj. Gives Houston cap space. Does it make Melo sign-and-trade to Houston less likely?

    I would guess so. This seems smart though. He gets a future asset for a guy who they couldn’t have kept for another year and will try to move Lin as well. Maybe even package the first with Lin.

    Make a run for Melo or Lebron. If he strikes out he has enough cap space to make a run at say Lowry and then re-sign Parsons.

  85. Frank

    Wow – Morey gets a 2015 1st for omer Asik. How does he keep finding the suckers in the league? Asik’s a nice player but with a big $ number for 2014-15 AND Houston needs to get rid of him to make a run at the big FAs so NOP should have had some leverage. Wow.

  86. Mr. Jowles, who commands your respect

    Z-man,

    Arguing with you is like slapping my skull against a brick wall. Sure, it’s fun, but really, the brick wall gets nothing out of it.

    At this point you’ve been wrong about basketball so many times on this site, and I’ve been right so many times on this site, that it’s time for you to sit the fuck down and let the grown-ups think about basketball.

    “AGAIN, I CHALLENGE YOU TO PROVE THAT MY LINE OF REASONING IS NOT CORRECT”

    No thanks, guy. Keep thinking that volume scorers are the true “creators” on the basketball court and I’ll keep thinking that a guy who set an all-time league record for shooting efficiency is, hey, maybe … just maybe … a great basketball player. Ain’t it weird, tho?

  87. Mr. Jowles, who commands your respect

    And don’t forget that Dirk, Terry, Kidd and Marion couldn’t win a fucking thing the following year without their All-NBA-caliber center posting offensive rebound after offensive rebound, controlling the paint, and converting 70% of his shot attempts…

  88. Z-man

    Well, who’s gonna take them, smart guy? Chandler is locked in at <7 shots/36. Every f-ing year. Every f-ing team. Every f-ing coach.

    With 5 Chandlers, you average 35 shots per game. I don't give a shit how efficient that team is, if they shoot 80% on 35 shots per game, they will lose by 30+ every night.

    So long as the Chandlers and Birdmans play on teams with the LeBrons and Dirks of the world with ideal supporting casts, they are very valuable. But your dumb-ass metric suggests that he is more valuable than Patrick Ewing. Come on, Jowles, you have to be smarter than that.

  89. Zanzibar

    It’s too early to tell and this all has to play out but I’m very nervous about the way this is going. I suspect the next trade might be Dalembert/Shumpert to OKC for #21 and #29 picks/Collison/Thabeet. You know how I feel about Shump situation and all of these 20-60 picks will likely end up as busts but we’ll still have Calderon’s albatross contract. Calderon will be just shy of 35yo in the 2015 playoffs. He may be the worst defending PG in the league already so imagine his movement in 2 years. His dime rate dropped precipitously this past season. That’s not to say he doesn’t have positives but really how good will he be in 2 years in the playoffs? Memo to Phil: 35 is not the new 25 in the NBA (Calderon, Pau). And Calderon trade suggests young upside Patty Mills may no longer be a priority. Since there are no real game changers among 2015 free agents, I wanted Phil to purse a defense-oriented team along the lines of 2003 Pistons/Grizz/Pacers.

  90. danvt

    I liked Chandler and thought he was a pretty dynamic, if limited, offensive player. That pick and roll play that where he dives to the hoop is pretty good soup starter for an offense. Also, obviously our defense takes a hit as well. No Chandler really throws the team into chaos as of this very moment. That being said, PJ has only begun to deal so hopefully the center position gets addressed very soon. Is Dalembert part of the solution or does he get cut? Will we get Patric Young tomorrow? With the next moves we’ll see what we’ll truly be. I like that we were able to leverage these two players into such a haul. Maybe we get multiple assets for Melo and get guys with even more upside. Maybe someone’s interested in Bargs or STAT. Doubtful, but I didn’t think Tyson was this valuable, either.

  91. Z-man

    Yes, I’ve been wrong about lots of stuff, sue me for being an optimist about my team; after all, it’s only sports. But you have been wrong about a zillion things over the years and don’t have the humility to admit it; hence the self-flagellating surnames.

    So long as your metric bails you out because it ignores 1/2 the game completely and selectively values the other 1/2, you can continue to blather on and on about how great the likes of Faried and Chandler are.

    I asked you before: what would the game look like if, rather than the points scored, we judged who won games based on WP score? (You never responded.) What about if Melo said, well, the way to win games is to take 7 shots a game and make 5 of them? Would he suck in that world, or would Chandler be exposed as a fraud?

    The team that scores the most points wins 100% of the time. Is that true about WP? Does the team with the highest WP score win 100% of the time?

  92. cc

    noob question — why does the possibility quickly come up of waiving Dalembert in particular? Why wouldn’t it come up for any newly acquired player? related question: if the Knicks waive him, do they still pay his salary?

  93. Igno-Bot 3000

    Dalembert has a team option this year so they can waive him before a certain date. They’re not obligated to pay him.

    Can’t remember the last time I was intrigued/curious in a positive way what the Knicks’ moves were going to be. Sounds like Larkin has a lot of upside.

    We need a Knickerblogger mock draft pronto

  94. ephus

    I wish good things for Tyson Chandler.

    Chandler was gifted at catching and converting lobs above the rim.

    He was quite bad at catching passes at waist level or below.

    He was great at setting solid screens.

    He was a poor mid-range shooter this past year, when he tried to diversify his offense.

    He was a decent passer.

    He was an offensive foul machine when he attacked the rim on the dribble handoff.

    In 2011-12, he was the best defensive player in the league.

    In 2012-13, he was a mercurial defender.

    In 2013-14, he was a lethargic defender.

    He was a great offensive tap out rebounder.

    He was poor at catching and converting offensive rebounds into baskets.

  95. bidiong

    I think the trade is awesome, but I think more it’s a shot at Melo saying we’re rebuilding with or without you and you should have opted in, we’re not waiting for you to make your decision. I love Melo, but I’m glad we’re doing business assuming he won’t be here.

  96. Brian Cronin

    Maybe even package the first with Lin.

    Yeah, I bet that that is the game plan exactly.

  97. Cincinnatus

    Apparently the idiots at wow just released their 2014 draft model (now boxscoregeeks). Too funny. Everyone’s favorite Kyle Anderson that they expected would be ranked top 3 by their model (we’re talking just a couple weeks ago) ends up not even being top 30 anymore. There 2013 model was even more hysterical. Apparently the model projected the 2013 draft class as the strongest class of the last 20 years.

  98. lavor postell

    Christ what an overreaction. Calderon can be traded much easier than Felton because he shoots the 3 at 45% and he’s not a steaming pile of suck offensively. His assist rate dropped because Monta Ellis was the primary ball handler.

    This trade actually positioned us to potentially have the full MLE this summer and biannual exception in case Melo walks to another team. We also got the No. 34 pick in a deep draft which I think is a lot more valuable than No. 29 or any of the late first round picks.

    If Phil Jackson was able to get 2 first rounders from Presti for Dalembert and Shumpert we should all get together and celebrate.

  99. hoolahoop

    The Knicks diminished in the area that’s most important to them – future cap space.
    For what? A below average PG, draft picks that will probably turn out to be worthless, a “great” prospect that got no playing time is nothing more than a hope and a prayer, and a guy who most NBA players never heard of.
    I would have thought the knicks could have got a #1 and a serviceable starter, while creating more cap space for 2015.

  100. The Ghost of Ted Nelson

    The last trade that the Knicks made that was even the least bit intriguing in terms of potential and upside was in 2010 when Walsh turned the exiting David Lee into Randolph, Turiaf, and Azubuike. Unfortunately, Randolph didn’t live up to his advanced stat rep (he was a major black eye for the geeks!), and Azubuike was too injured to ever suit up. But it was a moment when Knick fans could feel like they had actually made a move that wasn’t doomed to fail, unlike every other trade since Starks/Oakley for Sprewell and Camby.

    This move has that potential. Hopefully luck breaks in NY’s favor better than that one did.

  101. danvt

    The team that wins is the team with the best coaching and the most good players. Those players need to possess elite skills. Each individual player need only possess one elite skill as long as their other skills don’t cripple the team. There’s the sticky wicket. Let’s talk Novak. No doubt the best shooter the Knicks have had in the last few seasons or more. Best NYK shooter since Allan Houston? IDK. Obviously, he gave back a good bit of that efficiency on defense, but he did lead the team in +/-. However, he couldn’t stay on the floor for major minutes, or, many times, fourth quarter minutes. So, did he help or hurt the team?
    What about mistakes? Do you blame a guy who handles the ball a lot for having a greater TO% than a guy who’s job is to finish plays? Do you blame a guy who is relied on to score the ball in myriad ways and create for others for having a lower FG% than a guy who’s primary job is to block shots and rebound? I think it’s a mistake to overvalue tangential statistics. Landry Fields rebounded well for a non rebounding position but lacked the skills for his position. Did his exceptional rebounding pay big dividends for his teams? Would you say, scoring is the most important aspect of Tyson Chandler’s game? Chandler is the only one of the three players mentioned here who is worthy of 40 minutes a game on a nightly basis (or was). Probably because offensively his presence creates movement even if he gets very few attempts.

  102. danvt

    One more thought before bed. What say you sign Melo to a five year deal for close to the max, and then make the decision to not touch anything else and let all your albatross contracts sunset? So, you have maybe four players that are under contract beyond next season. Well, now you have to make a team out of that. Of course, we want at least one max type contract at that point. So, we basically have to start over completely, convince a big FA to come here and hope there are enough bargain parts that fit our system beyond that to compete. Isn’t this scenario kind of like drawing four cards at Poker?
    Maybe Phil sees that he’s going to need some pieces in place before next summer.

  103. Zanzibar

    Christ what an overreaction.

    I think you’re the one who might be overreacting since I said we have to wait for this to play out. From what I’ve read, the Knicks are looking to keep Calderon. What matters is how Calderon plays starting in 2015 playoffs and beyond. So let’s talk probabilities. We know he already stinks on defense today. He’ll be moving like Jax in 2 more years after 4000+ more minutes. If his legs go, his shooting will follow. Why are you presuming his 3FG% will be 40+% in 2 years? Calderon posted a .122 WS/48 this past season and .085 in playoffs – what do you think it will be in 2 years? In terms of +/-, he was -6.5 on Mavs this season. 7m cap hit in 2015-16 and 2016-17 seasons.

    Like I said, we need to let this play out but I’m nervous because I don’t think stocking up on 20-60 draft picks while trading our best defender will outweigh the Calderon contract. Couldn’t we have gotten a 20-30 pick for Chandler and not taken on Calderon’s contract?

  104. DRed

    For those of you who don’t like this deal, I can’t say you’re definitively wrong, but you’ve got to give Phil some more time and see what shake out. Calderon might well suck in the 2015 playoffs (maybe not while taking 23 shots a game at a sub .500 TS% while averaging less than 1.5 dimes), but he might not be our starting PG, or even on the team. From my perspective, its at least a decent start to the makeover.

  105. DRed

    However, he couldn’t stay on the floor for major minutes, or, many times, fourth quarter minutes.

    Some of that is due to Novak’s physical limitations, and some of that is Mike Woodson being a fucking idiot. In the ’13 playoffs, Melo and JR both were hurt and couldn’t shoot for shit and Kidd was a zombified husk.

    JR’s TS for the playoffs was .432, and he was second on the team in shots, and third in minutes! Cope had a TS of .599 and Novak of .692. I do not give a fuck that they can’t defend. Some of the shots that JR bricked up should have gone to players who might have made them. It wasnt that Prigs and Cope and Novak couldn’t play in the big games-the doofus with the goatee wouldn’t give them a chance. We didn’t lose to Indiana because Chandler couldn’t drag Hibberts out of the paint like a certain talentless Italian would have-we lost because the coach gave too many minutes to the wrong guys. And Woods on pretty conclusively proved that this season.

  106. lavor postell

    @Zanzibar

    My bad. Didn’t catch that part of your post probably in my haste and obvious anger. Let’s just wait to see how it all plays out. Phil Jackson took over a steaming pile of shit. It’s not going to clear up in one trade, but I think it’s a good start and I expect us to be active as we move forward this summer.

  107. Brian Cronin

    It seems like there’s a sentence missing here in this Herring piece, right?

    It’s unclear how the trade will impact the imminent free agency of Carmelo Anthony, who counts Chandler as a close friend and teammate, both with the Knicks and the gold-medal winning U.S. Olympic team in 2012.

    “During exit interviews, Melo told Phil that Tyson was the teammate he trusted most,” according to a person familiar with the conversation.

    Because of that, this could be the first move in a larger plan for the Knicks not only to keep Anthony, but also to quickly install pieces around him in the event that he re-signs with the team. According to a separate ESPN report, Anthony was said to be lining up his first meetings with potential suitors, including Dallas, the Houston Rockets and the Chicago Bulls, once free agency begins on July 1.

    I don’t get how you go from “Tyson is the teammate Melo trusts the most” to “this could be the first move to keep Melo.” Just seems like something’s missing there.

    By the way, shocking statement from Melo that Chandler was the teammate he trusted the most. Dang, I think that likely says a lot about how much Melo trusted his teammates, as Chandler had been fairly critical of Melo at times.

  108. yellowboy90

    Who else can he trust and you need a friend who can tell you the truth not just what you want to hear. Having said that I an not sure Im buying that they were close. Also, trust has nothing to do with friendship though in a work environment.

  109. Farfa

    I won’t say anything about the Melo situation until we know more. I just don’t get how can there be so many people who believe we absolutely have to retain his services in order to win. Process over result, guys. Process over result.

  110. Brian Cronin

    Who else can he trust and you need a friend who can tell you the truth not just what you want to hear. Having said that I an not sure Im buying that they were close. Also, trust has nothing to do with friendship though in a work environment.

    Oh sure, but my issue is only that I’m confused about how Herring got from “Tyson was the teammate Melo trusted most” to “because of that, this could be the first move in a larger plan for the Knicks not only to keep Anthony” Because he was the teammate Melo trusted most? How does that follow? Like I said, it seems like a sentence was omitted by mistake in between those two sentences.

  111. Brian Cronin

    The previous sentence was

    It’s unclear how the trade will impact the imminent free agency of Carmelo Anthony, who counts Chandler as a close friend and teammate, both with the Knicks and the gold-medal winning U.S. Olympic team in 2012

  112. Farfa

    What’s completely puzzling is the “Because of that”. If you erase those three words, the rest doesn’t really make sense but at least it’s not inconsistent. I guess it’s a bad case of copy-and-pastitis.

  113. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, exactly. Without that it still reads a bit oddly, but with it it just doesn’t make any sense.

  114. Brian Cronin

    The rumor is that the Rockets already have a trade ready for Lin. They’re only waiting to see if they can get someone with the open cap space. If they can’t, then they’ll need to hold on to him. Asik, on the other hand, they just felt they needed to split with no matter what (and a first round pick is a heck of a trade piece – by the way, the pick is similar to the pick they got for Lowry, it is specifically protected from being a bad pick – it only goes to Houston if it falls between 4 and 19).

  115. Brian Cronin

    By the way, the more I think about it, the more I can kind of sort of believe Broussard’s rumor about how the Rockets might try to sign Lebron outright and then deal Harden for Melo. It would make a lot more sense than pairing Melo with Harden. Beverly, Vet minimum guard (probably a 3 and D guy), Melo, Lebron, Howard with Parsons off of the bench? That’s an insane team. Probably better than the Miami Heat of a couple of years ago.

  116. Farfa

    Yes it would, but does Parsons slide to 6th man status then? Because if we are to believe Broussard’s rumor HOU starting five would be this: Beverley-?(Ray Allen; Vince Carter)-LeBron-Melo-Howard

    And the bench would be: Canaan-Daniels-Parsons-veteran PF(probably Jones goes away with Lin, I guess)-veteran C.

    No way in that case Parsons gets more than 6m/yr, I guess. And I don’t think his talents are suited to play off the bench.

  117. Frank O.

    Great move for the Knicks.
    There is a good chance more will come.
    The Knicks could package the two second rounders and Shump into a mid to late first rounder.
    Dalembert can be waived with minimum impact.
    This is great for creating possible trades and cap space.
    Calderon plays very well in the garden and often made Felton look horrible. I like his passing and ability to stretch the D.
    Also, I think this is a sign that Melo may be gone.
    Tyson was enormously unhappy at the end and too vocal about it. Felton was fat and got in trouble. His days were numbered.
    Keep it going Phil. Get us in the first round!

  118. Brian Cronin

    I don’t think there’s any way they move #34. #34 is probably better than picking, say, 29th. But I could see them packaging Shump, #51 and Larkin.

  119. Brian Cronin

    There would be some amusement, though, to fans of 1990s sports to see the sons of Barry Larkin and Tim Hardaway in the same backcourt. :)

  120. Frank O.

    The other point is if they were able to make a decent move like this why wasn’t it done before? I mean the Knicks really sucked.
    The answer is Mills is a lightweight.
    The same shit happened with Walsh. He appears in a hopeless situation and makes a few deals and suddenly they seemed less hopeless, but we had to go through how many stupid seasons before someone changed leadership.
    We all knew the Knicks needed a PG. It was the worst backcourt in the nba. We all knew we needed picks.
    Also, I don’t think Phil has any intention of signing Melo. The triangle doesn’t feel like a Melo fit. I could be wrong, but I think They let Melo walk after offering a big pay cut.

  121. Mr. Jowles, who commands your respect

    Z-man,

    Are you still doing the “team of 5 Tyson Chandlers” thing?

  122. Nick C.

    Hopefully this is the first step. Ellington is a career 38% shooter from three. That’s a plus, though he seems to have fallen back in the rotation as his career has gone on. Calderon is an NBA level point guard offensively. As for Melo, I am unsure. The allure of NYC and $$$ probably wins out. what the team needs are lateral or backwards moves that allow them to ultimately move forward.

  123. yellowboy90

    Hey Brian I think the paragraph …

    “To Anthony, trading a player like Chandler, a 13-year veteran who will turn 32 before next season starts and appears to be in decline, could look like the first sign of a Knicks’ rebuild. He was one of three pieces, along with Anthony and Amar’e Stoudemire, whom the Knicks picked up in the hope of making a championship run.”

    Should be above/before the [Because of that paragraph.

    It’s unclear how the trade will impact the imminent free agency of Carmelo Anthony, who counts Chandler as a close friend and teammate, both with the Knicks and the gold-medal winning U.S. Olympic team in 2012.

    “During exit interviews, Melo told Phil that Tyson was the teammate he trusted most,” according to a person familiar with the conversation.

    To Anthony, trading a player like Chandler, a 13-year veteran who will turn 32 before next season starts and appears to be in decline, could look like the first sign of a Knicks’ rebuild. He was one of three pieces, along with Anthony and Amar’e Stoudemire, whom the Knicks picked up in the hope of making a championship run.

    Because of that, this could be the first move in a larger plan for the Knicks not only to keep Anthony, but also to quickly install pieces around him in the event that he re-signs with the team. According to a separate ESPN report, Anthony was said to be lining up his first meetings with potential suitors, including Dallas, the Houston Rockets and the Chicago Bulls, once free agency begins on July 1.

    I don’t know. What do you think?

  124. lavor postell

    I think it’s more likely Phil tries to package THJ, Larkin and 51 to move up. THJ doesn’t really fit the type of of big, physical wings that have been a hallmark of Jackson’s Triangle teams. Also the fact that he is completely one dimensional and with 3 years left on his deal I could see him having more value around the league, especially to some stupid front offices and teams desperate for perimeter shooters. I mean what does THJ really do that Ellington couldn’t?

    Btw players that have just been traded can’t be used in trade for 60 days if they are combined with other players. There is a pretty weird loophole though that the Warriors used this past season when trading for Steve Blake.

    http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/2/20/5428672/steve-blake-trade-lakers-warriors-cba-analysis

  125. stratomatic

    How come no coach or team has figured out how to get Chandler more than 7.8 shots per game?

    I agree with you.

    Chandler’s efficiency would fall off a cliff if he tried to score a lot more. But where does it say that I or anyone else is measuring his offensive contribution based entirely on his efficiency. Even in Wins Produced the value of scoring is a blend of efficiency and volume, with 50% being the break even point. So if you jack up a lot of shots, you get credit for it UNLESS you can’t meet that 50% threshold overall.

    The idea that other players are getting punished because Chandler “cherry picks” (or what I would being more intelligent than most players) is at best a marginal impact. The difference between the number of possessions Chandler uses and what the “average” C uses is not that many possessions. They are also divided among all the players Chandler is on the court with during the game. In fact, some of them probably wind up being very good shots anyway. So in the grand scheme of things, the impact on the efficiency of other individual players (while hard to measure precisely) is negligible.

  126. Frank

    by the way according to Eric Pincus at Basketball Insiders, we also picked up a ~3.7MM trade exception in that trade last night (Felton’s full salary). That could be extremely useful in absorbing players from teams looking to dump salary.

    http://www.basketballinsiders.com/knicksmavericks-deal-by-the-numbers/

    I have to say – I am just flabbergasted by this trade, and not just in terms of us getting what looks like a pretty reasonable deal. We moved one terrible player with a bad contract (Felton), one declining player who didn’t fit the system anyway (Chandler), picked up a bunch of assets (the 2 picks, a 2013 mid-first round pick in Larkin, a serviceable player on a great contract in Dalembert, and a good player on a so-so contract (but who has now been traded 3 times in 2 years so there’s obviously a market for him) in Calderon). AND we picked up a valuable trade exception. We changed culture, got younger/healthier, got picks. And the fact that Calderon is on the Spanish national team with guys we are undoubtedly trying to sign eventually (Gasol brothers) doesn’t hurt at all. And all these guys apparently fit the Triangle better.

    I think it’s a home run. I’m sad to lose Chandler but frankly I think he’s better off in Dallas in Carlisle’s system. And he got a 500K trade bonus anyway so he’s happy.

  127. Z-man

    Thanks for the measured response, strat, far cry from O Respected One’s condescending bs.

    I’m not sure I agree with your point on the average C’s usage. At the end of the day, someone has to take the shots that the average winning team takes per game. If he as putting up league-high efficiency at league-low usage, that has to detract from the value of that player on the offensive end. It also makes the player that shoots at a TS% of 560 seem far less valuable, even though that player is playing at a league-high usage and making the same number point-blank shots at the same efficiency.

    Chandler is not much mor efficient, if at all, *at the shots he takes* than many other NBA players. Compare his efficiency on dunks and layups to other C’s or PF’s and there really isn’t much difference.

    He’s a great P&R diver with a PG that gets to the rim and finishes or scores from away from the rim, i.e. has to be guarded (unlike Felton.) But even Dallas could only go to that well so many times in a game.

  128. thenamestsam

    Yes it would, but does Parsons slide to 6th man status then? Because if we are to believe Broussard’s rumor HOU starting five would be this: Beverley-?(Ray Allen; Vince Carter)-LeBron-Melo-Howard

    The part of this whole thing I’m not understanding is why they want to deal Harden for Melo in this scenario. Harden is better than Melo, younger, and has already proven that he can be ultra efficient when used in a supplementary role – something they’d be hoping Melo could transition to. Plus, assuming they can keep Parsons they have what they need on the wing, but would be short in the backcourt. Beverley, Harden, Lebron, Parsons, Howard with Ray Allen playing Beverley’s spot in crunch time when they need offense looks way, way beyond terrifying. Lebron, Howard PnR with Harden, Allen and Parsons spotting up is a joke.

    The only reason I can think that they’d be interested in turning Harden into Melo is if that’s what Lebron demands, but I think Lebron is smart enough to see the upside with Harden.

  129. lavor postell

    The main frustration with Chandler was that even when a guard would get switched on to him in the post he couldn’t do anything offensively. Once the PNR action was over, if it didn’t result in an easy conversion at the rim he couldn’t do much else even if he had great inside position on a significantly smaller player.

    Either way I think he’ll be a bit rejuvenated this year in Dallas and all the best to him. I’m happy he gave us 2011-12 and the first half of 2012-13.

  130. DRed

    It also makes the player that shoots at a TS% of 560 seem far less valuable, even though that player is playing at a league-high usage and making the same number point-blank shots at the same efficiency.

    That’s an error in your perception. Tyson isn’t valuable because high TS. He’s valuable because he has a high TS, on a certain number of shots, and because he’s a terrific rebounder, plays good team defense etc. Tyson scores slightly less than an average center on a rate basis, but on significantly fewer possessions, and does a lot of other things that help his teams win. A guy with a TS of 56 (which is good) could be more valuable than Tyson.

  131. DRed

    The main frustration with Chandler was that even when a guard would get switched on to him in the post he couldn’t do anything offensively. Once the PNR action was over, if it didn’t result in an easy conversion at the rim he couldn’t do much else even if he had great inside position on a significantly smaller player.

    No doubt. That shit was frustrating. I sometimes think I could lock Tyson down one-on-one on the block, even though he’s like 14 inches taller than me and somewhat more athletic.

  132. Brian Cronin

    Btw players that have just been traded can’t be used in trade for 60 days if they are combined with other players.

    Can’t they get around that by just not officially making the trade until later? Like the Mavs can draft for the Knicks and the deal can be confirmed later on, so the KNicks would still have time to deal Larkin and Dalembart, I believe.

  133. lavor postell

    Can’t they get around that by just not officially making the trade until later? Like the Mavs can draft for the Knicks and the deal can be confirmed later on, so the KNicks would still have time to deal Larkin and Dalembart, I believe.

    I would assume so. I thought the deal was official, but if they still have time then I imagine this would be possible.

  134. Owen

    “Chandler is not much mor efficient, if at all, *at the shots he takes* than many other NBA players. Compare his efficiency on dunks and layups to other C’s or PF’s and there really isn’t much difference.”

    Z-Man – Chandler is much more efficient. At least he was the three years until this one, which was for him, at 61.5% ts%, a comparative disaster. (though a pretty good year for almost anyone else).

    I know you think the NBA is filled with generic big man who can all catch a lob and finish around the rim like Tyson. But actually, that is a long long way from being true. While what he does seems pretty ordinary it’s actually an exceedingly rare skill set in a guy who is a premier defender.

    I would expect that the Mavericks will be very happy with what they get from him this year.

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