Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, September 3, 2014

BREAKING NEWS: Jeremy Lin Officially a Houston Rocket

Marc Spears at Yahoo!

Knicks spokesman confirms that Jeremy Lin’s offer sheet will not be matched. @JLin7 is now officially a Rocket.

A few thoughts…

It really has to be Dolan, because Grunwald would not have let it get to this point. Going into the offseason, the odds of Lin getting a deal with a “poison pill” third year had to be high. Once Asik specifically got one of those deals, the Knicks absolutely had to know it was a possibility. Therefore, if they knew Houston was interested and the Knicks were planning on letting Lin go if there was a poison pill third year, they would have offered him to Houston in a sign and trade for the MAX that the Knicks were able to pay (4 years/$24 million). Houston would obviously not outbid that contract, seeing as how this way they’d be guaranteed to get Lin (and at a lower salary, even). So the Knicks would then get something, even if it was, like, a first rounder three years from now or whatever (or hell, a couple of second rounders).

That they didn’t do that sure does suggest that the Knicks knew about the likelihood of the poison pill and still planned on matching.

Until Dolan got involved, of course. And he did not like Lin’s tactics.

So with that said, I think it is fair to say that if Lin’s priority was only on being a Knick, then yes, he never should have accepted a contract with a poison pill in it. So it is fair to note that he likely did know that there was a chance that he’d end up in Houston and I am sure he had no real problem with that, while clearly preferring to remain a Knick.

It is quite literally the exact same thing that Melo did with the Knicks back in 2011. If his only priority was being a Knick, then Melo would have told other teams that he would only sign an extension with the Knicks. He did not. Like Lin, he was clearly willing to go to another team if that is what happened, while he clearly preferred to end up as a Knick. I know I doubted at the time whether Melo would have followed through on his threat if the Knicks had refused to up their offer, but it is fair to say that publicly he would not rule out playing for the Nets and that uncertainty led to the Knicks giving up much more than teams typically give up in trades involving free agents to be.

I made a point of saying at the time that I was fine with Melo’s tactics back in 2011 and I am fine with Lin’s tactics here. The idea that Dolan was (and many, many reporters were) okay with Melo’s tactics in 2011 while condemning Lin’s tactics in 2012 irk me.

219 comments on “BREAKING NEWS: Jeremy Lin Officially a Houston Rocket

  1. Robtachi

    It’s sad… this whole situation is sort of a microcosm of what has ailed the United States as a whole for the past decade. There are too many people in positions of inconceivable wealth and power who would simply rather do with that money and power what is in their own petty self-interests instead of best for anyone and everyone else.

    The Knicks make me sad. Period.

  2. johnlocke

    Dolan is a fucking moron and a petty, immature rich kid in an old guy’s body. Things that will seriously make me PISSED off going forward.

    1. If we ever more Amare’s contract over the next 3 years, thus removing the big tax burden we are trying to avoid

    2. If Felton shows up with his gut sticking out of his jersey to training camp, b/c he likes to be “strong”

    3. If Lin just kills and proves the Knicks wrong in Houston

    4. If Kidd gets charged with anymore distracting off the court events

    5. If JR, after his talk that Lin’s salary would disrupt the locker room, doesn’t shoot at or above his career average this season

    Knowing our luck all the above will happen.

  3. PrecociousNeophyte

    I wonder if Grunwald sent Houston a 2020 2nd round pick (that’s the next time they have a 2nd rounder, right? ;) ) for good measure.

  4. Brian Cronin

    Well, JR will certainly pick up his second year player option, right? He wants to help the Knicks luxury tax bill and $3 million is better for the Knicks than $5 million. So he’ll definitely pick up his second year option, I am sure.

  5. RicanKnick

    Once a Knicks fan always a Knicks fan not a single tear in my eyes. Sadly but true, I’ve seen this franchise do worst things. Good luck to Jeremy Lin as a Houston Rocket. Go NY.

  6. TheRant

    I think it’s time for each borough to have its own ball club. (Maybe not Staten Island.)

    Can we move New Orleans to the Bronx now?

  7. Spree8nyk8

    I cannot spew enough hate right now. I’m so lucky to live far enough away from anyone involved with this franchise so that I do not have to stop myself from committing a jailable offense.

  8. formido

    Well, I’ve read lots of decades long Knicks fans who say otherwise, but good for you, anyway.

    RicanKnick:
    Once a Knicks fan always a Knicks fan not a single tear in my eyes. Sadly but true, I’ve seen this franchise do worst things. Good luck to Jeremy Lin as a Houston Rocket. Go NY.

  9. daaarn

    Alas, time will surely assuage this pain, but it, along with the other infractions of the past decade plus will never be fully forgotten. Simply another scar borne from the long list of injuries inflicted upon my sports soul by the Knicks. Onward ho, brave companions of this ever-damned ship, until the next time the accursed Captain Dolan decides to sink us once more…

  10. Robtachi

    I’ve been reduced to tweeting apologies at Jeremy Lin’s twitter account for how poorly run the Knicks are. What has become of me?

  11. DRed

    Seriously, someone make me an argument for why I should keep rooting for this shit franchise. They’re insulting my intelligence now.

  12. dogrufus

    Alright guys, this is the end.

    20 years of die-hard fandom.

    This is the limit.

    The NBA is dead to me forever. I’ll miss this blog.

    20 years. I’ll always think of what might have been. Bye comrades.

  13. JK47

    So long Knicks. Thanks for the mostly shitty times. We’ll always have that one Starks dunk and LJ’s 4-point play.

    ANUCHA 4 EVA

  14. Loathing

    RicanKnick:
    Once a Knicks fan always a Knicks fan not a single tear in my eyes. Sadly but true, I’ve seen this franchise do worst things. Good luck to Jeremy Lin as a Houston Rocket. Go NY.

    I’m with ya. If we’ve survived Jerome James, and trading Nene for McDyess, and Ariza for Stevie Franchise, then we can survive this. I wish the best for Lin, and hope the Rockets choke on the Howard sweepstakes.

  15. KnicksFanInVA

    Don’t worry guys, Lin will be back as Knick when he’s 40 and a after couple of microfracture surgeries.

  16. JR Sec 112

    Knicks fan all my life. Season ticket holder. I seriously might be done. This team is completely and utterly unlike-able. I’ve contemplated the nets before, but the cold emotionless hell of jersey kept me at bay. No more. Ready to jump. Nets will inevitably win it all before the Knicks do. A fan base can only take so much.

  17. Robtachi

    Y’know, say what you want about the moves individually, but this off-season comes down to:

    Lost:
    Toney Douglas, Josh Harrellson, Jerome Jordan, Jared Jeffries, Jeremy Lin, two second round picks, Gadzuric’s contract, Landry Fields

    Gained:
    Jason Kidd, Raymond Felton, Marcus Camby, Kurt Thomas, James White, Chris Copeland

    Kept:
    J.R. Smith, Steve Novak

    I don’t care how much you like the individual moves – that just looks BAD. Period.

  18. KnicksFanInVA

    I hope for Shump’s sake that he is traded next year. Get out of this god-forsaken franchise.

  19. njasdjdh

    Knicks fan since I arrived in this country in ’92 and this, right now, feels like the straw that breaks the camel’s back. Love this site and it’s been a fun run commenting/reading here daily, but…I can’t do this anymore. I can’t say I am giving up on them entirely, but I will no longer watch on a day to day basis. Good riddance.

  20. massive

    This team makes me so sad. I won’t be able to watch ESPN at all since I root for the Jets, Knicks, and Mets smh. Not fair.

  21. Robtachi

    Brian Cronin:
    Are you counting the rights to the guys they traded (including this year’s second rounder), as well?

    I included Papanikolaou’s rights as a second rounder but not Prizentis because I forget where he came from. And did they give up something additional for Kidd? Can’t remember. So very numb.

    Also: I don’t make a habit of liking Ian O’Connor’s stuff but I don’t see another writer in a prominent national spotlight who so clearly sees why this is a disaster. http://espn.go.com/new-york/story/_/id/8175454/ian-oconnor-new-york-knicks-make-major-blunder-letting-jeremy-lin-leave

  22. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin:
    While I won’t judge anyone for giving up, I hope you all don’t. I mean, come on, snarking can be fun, too!

    Id rather them leave then stay around and take the fun away from next season by constantly trolling whenever Lin has a good game and Felton/Kidd dont lol

  23. RicanKnick

    When my favorite player, Patrick Ewing, was traded, I became depressed. At that time I said I wouldn’t root for the knicks anymore. It was painful to see Shandon Anderson and Howard Eisley in knicks uniform….and here I am still rooting for the Knicks. It’s like a curse. That’s what I mean. I’ve seen worst rosters by far. I’m still optimistic. Sorry for you fellas…I feel ya!

  24. PrecociousNeophyte

    Wait till next year when the Knicks sign JR Smith to an Early Bird $5M type contract because he’s “loyal”

  25. Brian Cronin

    When my favorite player, Patrick Ewing, was traded, I became depressed. At that time I said I wouldn’t root for the knicks anymore. It was painful to see Shandon Anderson and Howard Eisley in knicks uniform….and here I am still rooting for the Knicks. It’s like a curse. That’s what I mean. I’ve seen worst rosters by far. I’m still optimistic. Sorry for you fellas…I feel ya!

    Oh man, the Shandon Anderson trade! That might actually be the worst trade they ever made. Not so much the trade itself, Glen Rice for Anderson and Howard Eisley, which was bad, but the fact that they then tore up Anderson’s contract and extended him for four more years with a raise!

    Okay, yeah, that one might be an even worse trade than the Curry deal, as Curry at least was in demand at the time.

  26. JR Sec 112

    I’ve been a Melo supporter as well, but enough is enough. The best thing about games next year may be watching the fan base turn against him until he is run out of town. The natives will be restless and Melo will get the blame.

  27. Brian Cronin

    Id rather them leave then stay around and take the fun away from next season by constantly trolling whenever Lin has a good game and Felton/Kidd dont lol

    I think Dolan already took away the fun away from next season. But yeah, I agree that I certainly won’t be posting reminders of how good Lin is doing next season (and not because he won’t be doing well ;)).

  28. formido

    “And you have to blame Jeremy Lin at least for a little of the way this went down,” maintained a source close to Knicks management. “LeBron James and Dwyane Wade worked together with Pat Riley to construct a deal to end up in Miami, and here it looked like Lin was trying to construct a deal to end up in Houston.”

    LOL. Yes, why didn’t a player getting his first real contract concede more to the billionaire boss who made gobs of money off him this year? Poor Dolan. :(

    But I’m sure Lin is flattered to be compared to Wade and Lebron.

  29. da_s_monk

    this is depressing. of all the stupid contract we’ve given over the years (from Jerome James, to Eddy Curry, Steve Francis, Vin Baker… the list goes on and on), couldn’t we sign this one? yeah he’s probably not a superstar, but there’s a lot of potential.
    now we have Felton and Kidd (if he doesn’t go to jail). I really don’t understand the logic of our front office. I miss Walsh. might not have been the greatest, but at least he had a plan (or seemed to have one)…

  30. KnicksFanInVA

    All the excitement about our offseason moves just seem like complete bullshit. What’s even more pathetic is that we couldn’t even complete a sign and trade and atleast fleece the Rockets for some assets. This is a massive blunder, whether or not anyone thinks Lin is the real deal.

  31. Loathing

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…is there a way someone can pull a hostile takeover on James Doughnuts?

  32. DRed

    Hollinger wisely points out that we’re going to be paying 7.2 in guaranteed money in the 3rd year of Lin’s contract and it’s likely that they will be giving nothing of value at all. What a tremendous shitshow.

  33. daaarn

    This really is a no-win situation. Houston takes our best young player, but if I hope for them to lose a bunch of games, they get a good pick and even more to build on. And although I doubt they currently could beat us by record, they still have that option to swap picks.

    Furthermore, the worst thing is, I genuinely believe this current Knicks team cannot win. The past couple years I somehow managed to delude myself into thinking that things would get better. But now that this is the culmination of that decades-long hell, I cant help but shake my head. I disliked the Amare signing but felt it was at least somewhat justified in order to attract other FAs. I hated the Carmelo trade because of all we gave up. And now this; even if Lin wasn’t going to be a superstar, he still represented something bigger: hope. And even that’s gone now.

    Blah, I think I’m gonna have to take a break from this for the rest of the summer, because it’s just getting too depressing…

  34. johnlocke

    I really want to punch Dolan in the face for that crap he spewed, on the rare occasion he deemed it appropriate to speak to us peasants – the fans – when he said he believed in the players and that he would do everything he can to build a championship team. Dude fuck you!!!!!

    Spree8nyk8:
    I cannot spew enough hate right now.I’m so lucky to live far enough away from anyone involved with this franchise so that I do not have to stop myself from committing a jailable offense.

  35. RicanKnick

    Brian Cronin: Oh man, the Shandon Anderson trade! That might actually be the worst trade they ever made. Not so much the trade itself, Glen Rice for Anderson and Howard Eisley, which was bad, but the fact that they then tore up Anderson’s contract and extended him for four more years with a raise!

    Okay, yeah, that one might be an even worse trade than the Curry deal, as Curry at least was in demand at the time.

    Exactly….I know most of you don’t share my point of view and I respect that. It would’ve been great having Lin back…but even without him I like our roster and I’m rooting for my Knicks. Peace out…

  36. Degree_Absolute

    I was watching Louie to try get my mind off this shit franchise and out of nowhere he has this quote that captures the Knicks in a nutshell:

    “Well I always wanted to make a movie where a guy’s life is really bad and then something happens and it makes it worse but instead of resolving it he just makes bad choices and it goes from worse to really bad…like he lives in a one bedroom apartment, he’s not very good looking, he has no friends, he works in like a factory like a sewage disposal plant and he gets fired…But then he meets a girl and she’s beautiful and he falls in love so you think that’s gonna be the thing that’s gonna be the happy thing but then she turns out to be a crook and she robs him, takes his wallet and he’s stuck in the middle of nowhere…”

  37. hoolahoop

    This knicks forum is pathetic. Fanboy Central.
    Every guy the knicks get, everyone posting here thinks is fantastic. I remember someone saying Fields could become as good as Grant Hill was in his prime. Everyone jumped in defending the statement. People here were bonkers for TD when he arrived. etc etc etc
    For starters, Lin is not the second coming of Steve Nash. He had a fantastic short stretch of games and became overrated by NY media and most knicks fans. Once Lin got the attention of opposing defenses, things got tough for him. Miami embarrassed him. So did D. Will the second time around. He was becoming increasingly, less effective. People here said he was tired and fatigued.
    Second, Lin got greedy. He tried to squeeze an extra five million out of Dolan. That’s the antithesis of loyalty. Karma is a bitch.
    Granted, the knicks played their hand terribly. But, so did Lin and his agent.
    Opportunities will present themself that will be better for knicks in the long run.

  38. Gamecockerbocker

    hoolahoop:
    This knicks forum is pathetic. Fanboy Central.
    Every guy the knicks get, everyone posting here thinks is fantastic. I remember someone saying Fields could become as good as Grant Hill was in his prime. Everyone jumped in defending the statement. People here were bonkers for TD when he arrived. etc etc etc
    For starters, Lin is not the second coming of Steve Nash. He had a fantastic short stretch of games and became overrated by NY media and most knicks fans. Once Lin got the attention of opposing defenses, things got tough for him. Miami embarrassed him. So did D. Will the second time around. He was becoming increasingly, less effective. People here said he was tired and fatigued.
    Second, Lin got greedy. He tried to squeeze an extra five million out of Dolan. That’s the antithesis of loyalty. Karma is a bitch.
    Granted, the knicks played their hand terribly. But, so did Lin and his agent.
    Opportunities will present themself that will be better for knicks in the long run.

    So letting him go for absolutely nothing in return was the right thing to do?

  39. Kikuchiyo

    I moved to the New York area in ’91. Had grown up a Pistons fan and enjoyed two (almost three) championships. (One reason I still have a small, small place in my heart for Isiah.) But NYC in 1991 was overwhelming, and I switched teams. (Pre-internet folks. Very, very hard to follow an out-of-town team then.) Fell in love with that team, with WFAN, with the amazing energy of it all. Had a good decade with it and then this crap decade. I’m thinking about going back to the Pistons. Not much to root for there, but this feels like a good time and a good reason to go.

    ……..

  40. murph

    guys, calm the hell down. who the hell is Jeremy Lin? Yes, he had a good FEW games in a lockout-shortened season. Hate to say it, but let’s be honest. He was a good ballplayer for a QUARTER SEASON. It’s not like losing an all-star. Yes, he has potential. But give me potential in one hand, and crap in the other. What’s the difference? The team will be a four seed next year & make it to ECF, bank it. (disclosure no major injuries). I don’t care when the Knicks showed fiscal responsibility, but they finally did it. Nothing to do with Chris Paul, it’s being SMART. new concept as a knick fan, but I agree with it. Give this team some time, we’ll be alright.

    damn…

  41. chrisk06811

    Kevin Moss hit 21 HRs for the yanks in 1990, as an unknown 25 yr old. And then he sucked. 1/2 a baseball season….similar sample size. And then he sucked. Are the odds really that high that Lin is going to be even better than avg, long term? is he worth more than $8M/yr if he is average? is he worth throwing out our flexibility? I’m not sure he is. Don’t act like this is a no brainer, or a reason to dump the knicks. If that is your reasoning, you should have left a long time ago, somewhere between steve francis and the truck parties.

  42. madlam

    What a circus this has been. Very disappointing.

    Jeremy has now said his goodbyes on twitter.

    Morey’s next move should be to approach Mike D’Antoni.

  43. Degree_Absolute

    chrisk06811: Kevin Moss hit 21 HRs for the yanks in 1990, as an unknown 25 yr old.

    It was Kevin Maas and he plays baseball. Baseball is different than basketball. Apples to oranges, my friend.

  44. Degree_Absolute

    madlam:
    What a circus this has been. Very disappointing.

    Jeremy has now said his goodbyes on twitter.

    Morey’s next move should be to approach Mike D’Antoni.

    Holy shit…. That. Would. Be. Awesome.

  45. massive

    What are the chances that Raymond Felton can stay above a .110 WS/48? This time, the team has a lot more talent, and his back-up won’t be Toney Douglas (so he’ll be playing less than his 38.4 minutes a game he averaged hear).

    At this point, all we can do is hope that Melo puts up Dirk Nowitzki numbers on offense and JR Smith can play like James Harden. In other words, we might as well be asleep for the next 3 years.

  46. BigBlueAL

    Kikuchiyo:
    I moved to the New York area in ’91. Had grown up a Pistons fan and enjoyed two (almost three) championships. (One reason I still have a small, small place in my heart for Isiah.) But NYC in 1991 was overwhelming, and I switched teams. (Pre-internet folks. Very, very hard to follow an out-of-town team then.) Fell in love with that team, with WFAN, with the amazing energy of it all. Had a good decade with it and then this crap decade. I’m thinking about going back to the Pistons. Not much to root for there, but this feels like a good time and a good reason to go.

    ……..

    Damn, 1st season rooting for the Knicks and they play your old favorite team the Pistons in the 1st round of the playoffs!! Was it tough watching the Knicks officially end the era of the Pistons Bad Boys??

  47. thenoblefacehumper

    Like a lot of you here, I’m just not sure I can take it anymore. I’m only 17, but in a way that makes it a bit worse. I missed the Ewing era, so I’ve been emotionally invested in garbage teams since I became a fan ( I think I started watching full time when I was 8, the 03-04 team…yeah). I’ve never seen the Knicks be anything that remotely resembles a contender. I thought MAYBE just maybe this year would be the first. I was full of optimism after we won the Bird Rights case. Then, our front office decided they’d rather bet on Felton magically becoming good after being an inefficient fat turd for 7 tears, than Lin STAYING good. I’m also a die hard Yankees fan so I can’t claim complete sports fan hell like some of you can. But unlike just about all of you, I’ve never seen a really good Knicks team. I’m very well versed on the history, but I have none of my own memories to keep me going.

    I’m not saying I have it worse than fans who have actually seen a good Knicks team, I definitely see how that could make this worse. It’s just so hard to keep rooting for a franchise that hasn’t given me any classic memories, and took away my chance at finally attaining some.

  48. Gamecockerbocker

    Well, at least we re signed Steve Novak and kept Shump Shump. Crossing my fingers we don’t trade them to Charlotte for Tyrus Thomas.

  49. cgreene

    I am disgusted not just by the basketball decision but by the whole charade. It just stinks of awful people who control something in life that I love.

    I will say one thing. If it is true, and by most accounts it seems that this is the case, that Lin had his people go back and get an upped offer after the fact which ultimately cost the Knicks not just the $6M in additional salary but the $40M in tax potential that was a crap move and I have a sneaking suspicion that Lin is less happy with the outcome. Can’t imagine he wouldn’t have preferred playing on a better team in a better market.

  50. Degree_Absolute

    murph: Yes, he has potential. But give me potential in one hand, and crap in the other. What’s the difference? The team will be a four seed next year & make it to ECF, bank it. (disclosure no major injuries). I don’t care when the Knicks showed fiscal responsibility, but they finally did it. Nothing to do with Chris Paul, it’s being SMART. new concept as a knick fan, but I agree with it. Give this team some time, we’ll be alright.

    James Dolan, is that you??? James, you realize we are still over the cap and will be paying luxury tax regardless and no one we can possible get will be as effective as Lin (or as likable and marketable) and they will still cost us a ton in luxury tax. James, this was horrible move. I know that you were criticized in the past for spending too much, but really the problem was not that you spent money, it was that you spent it stupidly on shit players who had no hope of making a solid and lasting contribution. Overpaying for a young guy with potential would have been almost universally praised. James, you fucked up.

  51. jon abbey

    Kikuchiyo:
    I moved to the New York area in ’91. Had grown up a Pistons fan and enjoyed two (almost three) championships. (One reason I still have a small, small place in my heart for Isiah.) But NYC in 1991 was overwhelming, and I switched teams. (Pre-internet folks. Very, very hard to follow an out-of-town team then.) Fell in love with that team, with WFAN, with the amazing energy of it all. Had a good decade with it and then this crap decade. I’m thinking about going back to the Pistons. Not much to root for there, but this feels like a good time and a good reason to go.

    my friend is a generally rational Pistons fan, and expects Drummond to have an impact this year. can’t say I agree with that, but there’s something.

    being a sports fan doesn’t need to be a big melodrama (no pun intended) in 2012. if the Knicks have pushed you too far for now, get League Pass, pick a Western Conference team before the season starts, and root for them also. I rooted for the awesomely entertaining (for about 40 games) Olowokandi/Miles/Odom/Q/Dooling Clippers this way, and also the first few years of SSOL in Phoenix. OKC, the Knuggets, maybe even GS, there are plenty of options.

  52. gjknick

    All the moves we made prior indicated we were putting all the chips into the kitty – trading youth for vets, adding to the payroll. We also had signs of a coherent plan – almost all the contracts ended in three years, meaning we could push the reset button just as all the main players were no longer in their prime. Then this! This makes a farce out of committing 3 years to players in their late 30′s. Yes, Felton and Kidd have a decent chance to be beter than TD, a corpse, and Bdiddy were last year. But the team being above average with no shot at a championship? Is that what Jimmie D is going to pay all this money for? Why not just let the south american guy have a shot at starting on the cheap? Why not keep Jordan and Jorts and see if they can develop into something on the cheap? I see no rational reason here. I hate trying to discern the intentions of people I have never met. However, given the statements of Knick employees and the moves they have made this off season, it sure looks like not matching Lin is an emotional response. That’s no way to build a winning franchise nor run a multi billion $ business. My last hope is that Jimmie channels a little bit of Steinbrenner and does something so unethical that the league suspends him. Where is Howie Spira when you need him?

  53. cgreene

    And not bc I think it was wrong to want the $ but bc it was (again if as described) done in poor way by his people.

  54. JR Sec 112

    Without Scola and the worst front court in the league, rockets are a lottery lock, right? Over under on wins about 30, I’d guess.

  55. madlam

    Degree_Absolute: Holy shit…. That. Would. Be. Awesome.

    LOL. Hate to say it but if Lin is supposedly only good in a certain system, than it would make sense to bring in MDA. That contract they’ve given him signals their intentions to make Lin one of the franchise cornerstones so why not.

    Given how their rookies are tearing it up in the summer league, a run and gun style might suit and will certainly draw in the fans. Add Dwight Howard …

    Either way I’m pencilling in JLin’s first trip back to MSG as must see.

  56. hoolahoop

    Degree_Absolute: It was Kevin Maas and he plays baseball.Baseball is different than basketball.Apples to oranges, my friend.

    Not really apples to oranges. Player was in zone for a short period of time. Not uncommon in all sports.

  57. murph

    Degree_Absolute: it was that you spent it stupidly on shit players who had no hope of making a solid and lasting contribution

    no, i don’t play for the straigh shot. but he has potential, yes. and yes, the scenario that played out was stupid. but I hope that as intelligent fans on this site, we can see the difference between potential & flash in the pan. Lin took his money. Had Houston up the offer. Didn’t play in playoffs because of money coming to him. no ill will – it’s a free county, get paid son. But just because Jimmy D has $$$, doesn’t mean he should pay all that tax on someone who playwed against Dartmouth a couple years ago…

  58. daaarn

    Question: Does James Dolan have any kids? If so, I shudder to think how all of this could be influencing the potential next owner some 20-30 years down the road.

  59. LunaticFringe

    I don’t expect this to be any sort of consolation, but as a Knicks fan of 48 years or thereabouts this doesn’t even make the needle on the Knicks “Are You Fuckin’ Kidding Me Meter” quiver. They’ve done much dumber shit than this. One of my earliest memories of the Knicks was listening to Bill Mazer wonder aloud “Let me see if I’ve got this straight, you actually sent someone to scout Bowling Green and decided that the real NBA prospect on that team was Butch Komives, NOT Nate Thurmond?”

  60. Ben R

    I love how Knick fans rationalize this move by saying “well it’s a bad move but at least it’s not as bad as (insert random old NY blunder) so no reason to stop being a fan now”.

    When this is our rational maybe it truly is the right time to start looking for a new team.

  61. DS

    daaarn:
    Question: Does James Dolan have any kids? If so, I shudder to think how all of this could be influencing the potential next owner some 20-30 years down the road.

    Yes, his son went to B.C. with my cousin, played bass in a funk band. Haha.

  62. hoolahoop

    Degree_Absolute: James Dolan, is that you???James, you realize we are still over the cap and will be paying luxury tax regardless and no one we can possible get will be as effective as Lin (or as likable and marketable) and they will still cost us a ton in luxury tax.James, this was horrible move.I know that you were criticized in the past for spending too much, but really the problem was not that you spent money, it was that you spent it stupidly on shit players who had no hope of making a solid and lasting contribution.Overpaying for a young guy with potential would have been almost universally praised.James, you fucked up.

    Wrong. This may have turned out to be another one of the knicks blunders that tied them up in year three of the contract.
    And who cares about marketable. I don’t give a shit if the knicks attract more fans or sell more jerseys. I just want them to win.
    Lin, or no Lin, this team would be lucky to get past the first round of the playoffs. Felton for Lin is not an earth shattering difference. ]

  63. formido

    I think your dislike of Lin is unfalsifiable. Prove me wrong. What would Lin have to do next year to demonstrate that he was unquestionably a better player than Felton and a difference maker?

    hoolahoop: Wrong. This may have turned out to be another one of the knicks blunders that tied them up in year three of the contract.
    And who cares about marketable. I don’t give a shit if the knicks attract more fans or sell more jerseys. I just want them to win.
    Lin, or no Lin, this team would be lucky to get past the first round of the playoffs. Felton for Lin is not an earth shattering difference. ]

  64. formido

    See, I’ve already seen how some detractors are responding. For example, one source “close to NY’s management” says that Lin is going to average 20 and 10 but Houston is going to suck, as if somehow acknowledging how good he’s going to be takes away some of the power of how good he’s going to be. If you just gave up a player who you think can average 20 and 10 anywhere, you are an idiot. Deron Williams just did that this year. If you let Deron Williams go, as a management team, you’re beyond redeeming.

  65. JK47

    Ben R:
    I love how Knick fans rationalize this move by saying “well it’s a bad move but at least it’s not as bad as (insert random old NY blunder) so no reason to stop being a fan now”.

    When this is our rational maybe it truly is the right time to start looking for a new team.

    I thought this exact same thing. It’s not just the Lin debacle, it’s the accumulation of decades of debacles. And the knowledge that the debacles will never stop.

    In three years when this team is at each others throats and out of the playoffs, the Knicks will “reload” again, but this time they’ll be giving max contracts to Russell Westbrook and whatever other overrated chucker James Dolan gets a boner for. Everyone will be hearing rumors that Gregg Popovich is going to come coach the team but we’ll end up with Mark Jackson instead. You can see the next train wreck coming from a mile away.

    “Well, at least this isn’t as bad as X” is not a reason to keep rooting for the team. In fact it’s the opposite.

  66. Degree_Absolute

    hoolahoop: Wrong. This may have turned out to be another one of the knicks blunders that tied them up in year three of the contract.
    And who cares about marketable. I don’t give a shit if the knicks attract more fans or sell more jerseys. I just want them to win.
    Lin, or no Lin, this team would be lucky to get past the first round of the playoffs. Felton for Lin is not an earth shattering difference.

    No, I’m not.

    The Knicks organization is going to spin this as them thinking it was better on all fronts (fiscally, locker room, on court, etc.) to let him leave than to keep him. Honestly, I think it is fair to debate the question “Should we keep Lin or should we facilitate his exit? (we should have kept him)”. All that said, this whole episode was a blunder regardless of whether we kept Lin or not. Simply put, you don’t let a 23 year old asset leave for nothing. That should have been goal numero uno and it clearly wasn’t. Dolan et al inarguably fucked up.

  67. formido

    This continues to be bizarre. How does a player go back and get his offer upped? If players had magical powers to go back and get their offers upped, wouldn’t all players do this? Every time?

    And if the claim is he went back and told them, hey, that’s too low, they said they’re going to match…well, duh? You think Rockets management doesn’t see ESPN? That was never meant to be a secret. EVERYONE knew the Knicks would match. The Rockets knew when they were making that offer, because it was clearly below market value.

    The person with the power here was Morey, not Lin, so I’d need to see some first hand evidence of Lin exhibiting these magical negotiating powers before I’d believe that. I think it just makes a good story line for some folks, and serves some other folks’ agenda.

    The only scenario that makes sense is that the initial sheet was a ruse to lull the Knicks into a false sense of security. And Lin is certainly in no position to turn it down because the Knicks never even made an initial offer. He’d be stuck with the qualifying offer. It’s not like Lin can say, hey, can you lower this offer sheet because I don’t think the Knicks will match this?!

    cgreene: I will say one thing. If it is true, and by most accounts it seems that this is the case, that Lin had his people go back and get an upped offer after the fact which ultimately cost the Knicks not just t

  68. Count de Pennies

    Ben R:
    I love how Knick fans rationalize this move by saying “well it’s a bad move but at least it’s not as bad as (insert random old NY blunder) so no reason to stop being a fan now”.

    When this is our rational maybe it truly is the right time to start looking for a new team.

    I’m not using it as a rationale at all.

    It’s just that after several decades of watching this franchise consistently do really, really stupid shit, ya kinda come to expect it after awhile.

    So I’m well past the point where I’m gonna get the vapors whenever it happens. Which is not to say that a tiny little piece of me does not die inside each time… because it does.

    However, I tend to agree with those who say this latest instance barely registers as a blip on the ol’ Knick Outrage-o-meter. Admittedly, I had never entirely bought into Lin yet and was still on the fence pending a larger sample size. So dealing with this one is a piece of cake for me. Whereas the fucking Eddy Curry trade left me gnashing my teeth for weeks afterwards.

  69. PrecociousNeophyte

    There have been rumors this summer the Knicks are getting new jerseys.

    Maybe planning to add a CAA patch??

  70. BigBlueAL

    Berman is on the air on WFAN saying he feels sorry for Lin because he really wanted to be back in NY but is blaming his agents for the renegotiated contract with the Rockets. Saying their strategy of assuming the Knicks would match anything backfired on them.

  71. Count de Pennies

    BigBlueAL: Berman is on the air on WFAN saying he feels sorry for Lin

    I don’t feel at all sorry for Lin.

    Worst case scenario for him is that he flops in Houston, winds up out of the NBA in two years, and is immediately hired as a professor
    at the Harvard Business School teaching Contract Negotiation 101.

  72. Ben R

    If I was Lin I wouldn’t want to be back. This team started piling on before the ink was dry, they let his good friend go and brought in a veteran PG to steal his minutes. On top of that they have a PG unfriendly, uncreative coach owned by the teams superstar and huge egos to manage when on the court.

    Now in Houston he is the man, he gets to play in a PG centric offense with hungry young players instead of aging “superstars” with questionable commitment to defense and no conception of teamwork.

  73. DRed

    BigBlueAL:
    Berman is on the air on WFAN saying he feels sorry for Lin because he really wanted to be back in NY but is blaming his agents for the renegotiated contract with the Rockets.Saying their strategy of assuming the Knicks would match anything backfired on them.

    Assuming this is true, where oh where would Lin’s team have gotten the idea that the Knicks would match the offer?

  74. madlam

    formido:
    See, I’ve already seen how some detractors are responding. For example, one source “close to NY’s management” says that Lin is going to average 20 and 10 but Houston is going to suck, as if somehow acknowledging how good he’s going to be takes away some of the power of how good he’s going to be. If you just gave up a player who you think can average 20 and 10 anywhere, you are an idiot. Deron Williams just did that this year. If you let Deron Williams go, as a management team, you’re beyond redeeming.

    I would have thought that if you concede a player is going average 20 and 10, you would rather have him playing for you, not against.

    Seems more and more like this decision was not just financial but very much personal. Obviously that comment (if it is true) shows it wasn’t made for basketball reasons.

  75. JK47

    John Wall. He’ll be the Knicks’ max contract guy in 2016.

    Get your John Wall jerseys now, because that is happening.

  76. Starks Is God

    I’ve lurked around on this site for a couple of years now, but I decided to come out of the shadows to also declare that I’m done with the Knicks. I’ve followed the team for the past 20 years and I just can’t take it anymore. I’m mulling over doing the unthinkable and jumping ship to the trailblazers. Is anyone with me? Losing Lin is the last straw.

  77. steveoh

    I’ve spent the entire day thinking about this.

    I actually think that I love this site more than I love the Knicks. In fact, there’s nothing really left tying my heart to the team I grew up loving. I’ve met and worked with Amar’e and Tyson and I think the world of them as people. But what Donnie built up has been dismantled. And I just don’t have the will any more to invest any more into an owner who doesn’t deserve it. He’s an idiot and an ass and not worthy of any of our loyalties.

    And yet, I can’t imagine a day without checking into this site. Knickerblogger is the reason I’m gonna remain a Knicks fan, even if from afar.

    I live in San Francisco. The Warriors are on all the time. They’re doing the right things (for once). I might buy a Curry jersey. Maybe even a Lee one.

    Damn.

  78. BigBlueAL

    The reaction of the hosts, their guests and the callers Ive heard so far on WFAN and ESPNNY for the past hour is the exact opposite of the reaction here and the Knick fans I follow on Twitter.

    This is a much more divisive situation than I thought lol

  79. villainx

    Forgive me if this was already asked, but the Knicks lost Landry Fields and Jeremy Lin, did they get anything out of either players joining other teams?

    Or did the Knicks FO get badly out FO’ed?

  80. DRed

    From Frank Isola: “The Knicks were already upset with Lin for hiring a publicist without consulting with them first.”

    I mean, you can’t make this shit up.

  81. AlmostFanatic

    formido:
    This continues to be bizarre. How does a player go back and get his offer upped? If players had magical powers to go back and get their offers upped, wouldn’t all players do this? Every time?

    And if the claim is he went back and told them, hey, that’s too low, they said they’re going to match…well, duh? You think Rockets management doesn’t see ESPN? That was never meant to be a secret. EVERYONE knew the Knicks would match. The Rockets knew when they were making that offer, because it was clearly below market value.

    The person with the power here was Morey, not Lin, so I’d need to see some first hand evidence of Lin exhibiting these magical negotiating powers before I’d believe that. I think it just makes a good story line for some folks, and serves some other folks’ agenda.

    The only scenario that makes sense is that the initial sheet was a ruse to lull the Knicks into a false sense of security. And Lin is certainly in no position to turn it down because the Knicks never even made an initial offer. He’d be stuck with the qualifying offer. It’s not like Lin can say, hey, can you lower this offer sheet because I don’t think the Knicks will match this?!

    THANK YOU! I’m sitting here reading some comments and just wondering ‘am I missing something?’ To think that Lin went with some underhanded agenda to the Rockets and said ‘hey boys you’re really going to need to rethink the first offer you made me’? The Knicks made Lin no offer when they could, TOLD him hey we’re going to see what your market value is, Rockets made an offer, Knicks stated publicly (not in some super secret meeting with Lin) we’re matching anything they got, Rockets said ok well we haven’t even had him sign the first offer so match this, and some how Jeremy Lin orchestrated this whole thing? Yes, Lin’s master plan was to somehow use his jedi mind tricks to make…

  82. JK47

    BigBlueAL:
    The reaction of the hosts, their guests and the callers Ive heard so far on WFAN and ESPNNY for the past hour is the exact opposite of the reaction here and the Knick fans I follow on Twitter.

    This is a much more divisive situation than I thought lol

    That’s because only jagoff morons call into sports talk radio shows.

  83. BigBlueAL

    Interesting stuff I didnt know just tweeted by Ken Berger (2 tweets):

    For those who think you know this stuff better than me, the Rockets do have to pay Jeremy Lin $14.9M in ’14-’15. This is a fact.

    Lin counts against the Rockets’ cap the average of the three-year, $25.1M contract. But they still pay him $15M in year three. How u.

  84. AlmostFanatic

    continued…

    the Knicks not sign him? Then he is some kind of Judas for doing exactly what the Knicks pushed him to do? I’m having a really hard time finding the logic there. The only logic exercised in this whole thing was the Rockets capitalizing on the Knicks brass’ cockiness and Jeremy Lin doing exactly what he – and any other free agent with common sense and a decent agent – should have done. He did’t make himself the fucking offer

  85. BigBlueAL

    “What Hou pays Lin and what he counts against cap are two different things. For Knicks, cap hit and salary would’ve been i-(clap)-dentical.”

    This new CBA is more complicated than I thought lol

  86. Ben R

    villainx:
    Forgive me if this was already asked, but the Knicks lost Landry Fields and Jeremy Lin, did they get anything out of either players joining other teams?

    Or did the Knicks FO get badly out FO’ed?

    It is kinda mind blowing that the Knicks had two valuable RFA’s and managed to lose them both for nothing.

  87. DRed

    DRed
    July 17, 2012 at 9:58 pm
    Anytime you can let an exciting young player walk away for nothing so you can start a fat guy and and old drunk, you just have to do it.

    Bill Simmons ?@sportsguy33
    But seriously – any time you can flip a 23 year old asset/fan favorite into a washed-up 40 year old and a fat guy, you have to do it.

    Stop stealing my material, Simmons

  88. AlmostFanatic

    And judging by the way this whole shitshow played out. The Knicks not matching that offer may very well be the best thing they could have done for him. That whole organization just sounds like completely toxic enviornment. I hope Shump can get out before its too late for him. Hope some of Tyson Chandler’s class and good spirit rubs off on that place and they don’t rub off on him. I love Chandler, so I can’t completely root against any team he plays on, hes a grinder and seems to be a stand up guy. Anyone else feeling for Novak? I have a feeling he might have a bad feeling in his gut after this charade. I mean he has a contract yeah, but I think he was probably expecting a much different result from the off season where some other players were concerned

  89. Degree_Absolute

    villainx:
    Forgive me if this was already asked, but the Knicks lost Landry Fields and Jeremy Lin, did they get anything out of either players joining other teams?

    Or did the Knicks FO get badly out FO’ed?

    That is the point that is being lost in all this noise. You don’t part with assets for nothing. We got smoked this offseason and now, for the next three seasons, we get to enjoy [[insert joke about how the Knicks are old... and I mean really fucking old]].

    (re-runs of the Golden Girls?)

  90. AlmostFanatic

    Degree_Absolute: That is the point that is being lost in all this noise.You don’t part with assets for nothing.We got smoked this offseason and now, for the next three seasons, we get to enjoy [[insert joke about how the Knicks are old... and I mean really fucking old]].

    (re-runs of the Golden Girls?)

    so who gets to inherit the Weekend at Bibby’s and Night of the Living Bibby jokes? Clearly there is no shortage of players who fit the bill. JKidd? He looked half dead during some of his introductory press.

  91. arthurprescott2

    BigBlueAL:
    “What Hou pays Lin and what he counts against cap are two different things. For Knicks, cap hit and salary would’ve been i-(clap)-dentical.”

    This new CBA is more complicated than I thought lol

    Give Morey credit there. 8.3 on the cap instead of 15.

  92. JK47

    The Knicks might be passable this year– everything breaks right they could probably get a 4th or 5th seed and maybe even steal a playoff series from some other mediocre team.

    But after that it’s gonna get ugly. Amar’e is in steep decline, Melo has never proven himself to be a max contract player and the role players are going to be just ancient. Is anybody looking forward to 40-year old Jason Kidd, 39-year old Marcus Camby and 41-year old Kurt Thomas? How about the downside-of-his-career Ray Felton?

    In a few years this team is going to be toxic.

  93. PrecociousNeophyte

    The more I think about it the more disturbed I am by the fact that the Knicks could have easily lost both Lin and Shumpert this summer. At least Nash would have been a real consolidation prize, I guess…

    OH, and when Alan Hahn starts spinning this Lin thing into the Knicks wanting to build a team to fit Woodson’s style, remember Steve Nash was their main target this summer.

  94. Ben R

    AlmostFanatic: so who gets to inherit the Weekend at Bibby’s and Night of the Living Bibby jokes? Clearly there is no shortage of players who fit the bill. JKidd? He looked half dead during some of his introductory press.

    He was just drunk.

  95. Kurt

    “Can we move New Orleans to the Bronx now?”

    Sorry, the rant, I’m a NOLA resident and I’m happy to have a root-able team in my town.

    Last week, I never would have thought the Hornets would be better 2 years from now than the Knicks. With Anthony Davis and Ryan Anderson, I’m beginning to have a new favorite team…

  96. AlmostFanatic

    Ben R

    You are probably right. So instead of just looking like a corpse, he is actually on course to become one. If this all weren’t so sad it would be funny. And not just for the Lin thing. I haven’t been a Knicks fan for long and am not a SUPER fan, but I love basketball, and I think a big reason this Lin thing is so upsetting to so many people is because its part of a bigger narative about how shady the business of the NBA has become. Every year it seems to be less and less about basketball.

  97. massive

    Our chips are seriously all on Melo right now. If he doesn’t play like the money he’s being paid, we’re screwed.

  98. Brian Cronin

    By the way, I don’t think I feel comfortable about making fun of Kidd’s drinking problem, if only because I think making fun of it sort of dilutes just how fucked up it is. You know, like laughing it off, “Oh, Kidd, he’s just a drunk!” Two DWIs is no joke. That is just some seriously fucked up shit right there.

  99. hoiboy

    Long time lurker, haven’t posted for ages.

    Specifically re: the offer – seems like two things happened:

    1) Rockets offered Lin original offer
    2) Knicks publicly said they would match it, up to anything
    then
    3a) Lin and his people got Rockets to up the offer, or
    3b) Rockets thought “sh*t, we just lost Dragic, we are about to trade Lowry, really need a PG, let’s give Lin a better deal” (Let’s keep in mind that they had no PGs at this stage because they traded Lowry to get a better pick for a potential DH12 deal)
    4) Rockets offer Lin a better deal, whether due to 3a or 3b
    5) Lin accepts it
    6) Knicks chucks a tantrum

    I wouldn’t blame Lin if 3a happened anyway – why shouldn’t he try to get a better deal, wouldn’t most of us do the same thing? To me though, 3b is at least as likely as 3a, and probably more likely if you ask me – the Knicks didn’t exactly keep their cards to themselves, like many other teams would, they announced loud and clear that they would match the offer as it was presented at that time. If Rockets didn’t get Lin, they would have had absolutely no young PGs to choose from.

    And if 3b happened – let’s be real, should Lin have said no to a better offer that came out of the blue? Of course not, that’s crazy talk. None of us would do that and I don’t get why we would expect him to.

    Also – 25m/3 years, Mike Conley-type money – that’s not even crazy money if you ask me. Sure Lin is unproven but there have been, and will be, many more contracts worse than this. To get nothing back for him at all – Dolan is nuts.

  100. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    DRed:
    DRed
    July 17, 2012 at 9:58 pm
    Anytime you can let an exciting young player walk away for nothing so you can start a fat guy and and old drunk, you just have to do it.

    Bill Simmons ?@sportsguy33
    But seriously – any time you can flip a 23 year old asset/fan favorite into a washed-up 40 year old and a fat guy, you have to do it.

    Stop stealing my material, Simmons

    Well, now we know The Sports Guy reads our little board. Welcome, Bill.

  101. hoiboy

    By the way, like someone said earlier – RFAs just don’t go around getting teams to up their offer sheets, it doesn’t work that way – so even if Lin did ask under 3a, Rockets would have had to agree to up it.

  102. AlmostFanatic

    massive:
    Our chips are seriously all on Melo right now. If he doesn’t play like the money he’s being paid, we’re screwed.

    When Melo decides to play, he can be that guy. He can get his teammates going, get himself going and really make opponents work hard. The area of disgust is that Melo doesn’t always decide to play like her can, and when he doesn’t, his nasty mood drags his teammates down too. I don’t blame Melo for Lin going, and he only had so much – granted it was as clear as the sky is blue – to do with MDA’s departure. But I DO blame Melo for at times being a lazy selfish player. And when you are considered an elite/prolific scorer that kind of shit is just absolutely inexcusable.

  103. Degree_Absolute

    Ben R: He was just drunk.

    Yes, that does seem likely. Holy crap… this team is completely unlikable… it is like we are watching a twilight zone episode inside Vince McMahon’s head and this iteration the Knicks is slated to be the new heel at the next Wrestlemania.

  104. Ben R

    fun fact –
    Number of current Knicks who played for NY last year: 6
    Number of current Rockets who played for NY last year: 4

    So after lots of roster turnover we were supposed to have a season where we stood pat and simply added around the edges. Instead we have two new starters and only two returning bench players. How can this team ever improve if we jettison half the roster every year. There is now just one player that has been on the Knicks since the beginning of the 10/11 season and none from before that.

  105. JK47

    massive:
    Our chips are seriously all on Melo right now. If he doesn’t play like the money he’s being paid, we’re screwed.

    I’m sure his 10th NBA season will be the one in which he has that big breakout we’ve been waiting for.

  106. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Brian Cronin:
    By the way, I don’t think I feel comfortable about making fun of Kidd’s drinking problem, if only because I think making fun of it sort of dilutes just how fucked up it is. You know, like laughing it off, “Oh, Kidd, he’s just a drunk!” Two DWIs is no joke. That is just some seriously fucked up shit right there.

    It just doesn’t make sense from an absurdly rich person. Career income of $184,000,000. After taxes and agent fees he probably takes home $90,000,000. This guy can’t afford to hire someone to drive him around? Or worse, won’t?

  107. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    JK47: I’m sure his 10th NBA season will be the one in which he has that big breakout we’ve been waiting for.

    We’re just misinterpreting the stats.

  108. Brian Cronin

    I think it is fair to say that if Lin’s priority was only on being a Knick, then yes, he never should have accepted a contract with a poison pill in it. So it is fair to note that he likely did know that there was a chance that he’d end up in Houston and I am sure he had no real problem with that, while clearly preferring to remain a Knick.

    It is quite literally the exact same thing that Melo did with the Knicks back in 2011. If his only priority was being a Knick, then Melo would have told other teams that he would only sign an extension with the Knicks. He did not. Like Lin, he was clearly willing to go to another team if that is what happened, while he clearly preferred to end up as a Knick. I know I doubted at the time whether Melo would have followed through on his threat if the Knicks had refused to up their offer, but it is fair to say that publicly he would not rule out playing for the Nets and that uncertainty led to the Knicks giving up much more than teams typically give up in trades involving free agents to be.

    I made a point of saying at the time that I was fine with Melo’s tactics back in 2011 and I am fine with Lin’s tactics here. The idea that Dolan was (and many, many reporters were) okay with Melo’s tactics in 2011 while condemning Lin’s tactics in 2012 irk me.

  109. Brian Cronin

    It just doesn’t make sense from an absurdly rich person. Career income of $184,000,000. After taxes and agent fees he probably takes home $90,000,000. This guy can’t afford to hire someone to drive him around? Or worse, won’t?

    It was definitely the latter. And yes, it is worse.

  110. PrecociousNeophyte

    JR Smith is going to be the youngest active player on the roster at the start of next season.

  111. Ben R

    Brian Cronin:
    By the way, I don’t think I feel comfortable about making fun of Kidd’s drinking problem, if only because I think making fun of it sort of dilutes just how fucked up it is. You know, like laughing it off, “Oh, Kidd, he’s just a drunk!” Two DWIs is no joke. That is just some seriously fucked up shit right there.

    You’re right, I wasn’t trying to make light. I actually really dislike Kidd, two DWI’s, allegations of spousal abuse he is really a piece of work. Him and Smith are just terrible human beings. Melo may be unlikeable but I don’t think he’s a bad guy, Kidd and Smith are another story.

    I remember when we had Marbury and everyone was hating on him and across the river was Kidd and the press and fans were in love with him I was the only one saying that while Marbury is crazy and eating vasoline he gave to charity and didn’t have one single off the court incident and gets crucified while Kidd’s wife beating barely got traction in the press.

  112. nicos

    Ben R:
    fun fact –
    Number of current Knicks who played for NY last year: 6
    Number of current Rockets who played for NY last year: 4

    Between people posting about the Knuggets and now the Rocknicks it’ll be a miracle if anyone bothers talking about Knicks games anymore.

  113. Brian Cronin

    I remember when we had Marbury and everyone was hating on him and across the river was Kidd and the press and fans were in love with him I was the only one saying that while Marbury is crazy and eating vasoline he gave to charity and didn’t have one single off the court incident and gets crucified while Kidd’s wife beating barely got traction in the press.

    Well, Marbury then got involved in Isiah’s sexual harassment suit, so he was not exactly a saint, either.

  114. Brian Cronin

    Between people posting about the Knuggets and now the Rocknicks it’ll be a miracle if anyone bothers talking about Knicks games anymore.

    Don’t forget the Raptknicks!

  115. bobneptune

    I’m curious how the geniuses are planning to distribute 96 back court minutes between fatty, kidd , a 35 yr old argentine who never played a minute in the nba and jr.

  116. Ben R

    More fun facts:

    Average age on Knicks this year: 31
    Youngest player after Shump: 27
    Number of players 30 or turning 30 this year: 7

    When the 10/11 season started we had a young team full of potential which was about a 45 win team. We hadn’t signed Chandler yet and Lin hadn’t fallen into our laps. Yet we were still a 45 win team and with those players developing would probably be a 50 win team now add Lin and Chandler and probably 55 wins.

    Instead we have an old team whose only potential is on the downside and we are probably about a 50 win team.

  117. Ben R

    Brian Cronin: Well, Marbury then got involved in Isiah’s sexual harassment suit, so he was not exactly a saint, either.

    That happened after I made the observation, I had forgotten about that. Well it doesn’t change the fact that Kidd is not a good person.

  118. JK47

    bobneptune:
    I’m curious how the geniuses are planning to distribute 96 back court minutes between fatty, kidd , a 35 yr old argentine who never played a minute in the nba and jr.

    Here’s a sobering stat:

    TS%, 2011-2012, Knick Guards
    Jason Kidd .524
    Fatty Felton .491
    JR Smith .508
    Iman Shumpert .484
    Pablo Prigioni N/A

    SOLID.

  119. Brian Cronin

    I’m curious how the geniuses are planning to distribute 96 back court minutes between fatty, kidd , a 35 yr old argentine who never played a minute in the nba and jr.

    They’re almost certainly signing another shooting guard.

    The roster is currently:

    Felton/Kidd/Prigioni
    Smith/Copeland
    Melo/White
    STAT/Novak/Thomas
    Chandler/Camby

    DL: Shump

    That’s 13 players. They can add two more. 13 can be active every night. I bet they sign Extra E and a guard. I bet they’d love to get Brewer, but we shall see if that actually happens. If things break their way, it could be:

    Felton/Kidd/Prigioni
    Smith/Brewer
    Melo/Novak/White
    STAT/Extra E/Thomas
    Chandler/Camby

    As the standard lineup, with Copeland getting practice time in but not being activated for games. And when Shump returns, Prigioni or White go to the inactive list.

  120. Brian Cronin

    That happened after I made the observation, I had forgotten about that. Well it doesn’t change the fact that Kidd is not a good person.

    Oh sorry, I didn’t mean to mislead. That’s why I said “Marbury then,” as I know it happened after what you were talking about.

  121. JK47

    So best case scenario is that they get Ronnie Brewer, another guard who can’t shoot. Nice juicy .483 career TS% for Brewer. He fits right in with this club.

  122. Loathing

    Gamecockerbocker:
    Well, at least we re signed Steve Novak and kept Shump Shump. Crossing my fingers we don’t trade them to Charlotte for Tyrus Thomas.

    Nah, too young. More like Ben Gordon.

  123. Loathing

    Brian Cronin: They’re almost certainly signing another shooting guard.

    The roster is currently:

    Felton/Kidd/Prigioni
    Smith/Copeland
    Melo/White
    STAT/Novak/Thomas
    Chandler/Camby

    DL: Shump

    That’s 13 players. They can add two more. 13 can be active every night. I bet they sign Extra E and a guard. I bet they’d love to get Brewer, but we shall see if that actually happens. If things break their way, it could be:

    Felton/Kidd/Prigioni
    Smith/Brewer
    Melo/Novak/White
    STAT/Extra E/Thomas
    Chandler/Camby

    As the standard lineup, with Copeland getting practice time in but not being activated for games. And when Shump returns, Prigioni or White go to the inactive list.

    Shump’s place will be taken by whichever senior citizen breaks a hip.

  124. yellowboy90

    Well they are supposedly talking to Belineli and hopefully Marrow will get released soon.

    Anyone know what happen to Andray Blatche’s and Ryan Gomes’ game?

  125. Brian Cronin

    Oh right. Belinelli might not be a bad stopgap. I’d love Morrow.

    Blatche is terrible, but he is also big, so if he ever slipped through waivers, I’d hope that the Knicks would try to get him. I doubt he will. Gomes is okay, but I don’t think he fits this roster. Extra E fits perfectly. He can play the 4 and he can nail the 3.

  126. Brian Cronin

    Anyone know who coined the Extra E nickname? It is so clever (providing I am remembering correctly that it was not just because he has an extra E in his name but because he always gave “extra effort” in practice before earning a spot in the rotation).

  127. 2FOR18

    Thank you all for having this place to vent my irrational reactions to the Knicks’ irrational decisions. For long time fans, this is par for the course and possibly the last straw. For ruru, I told you so.

  128. yellowboy90

    You know whats funny is the bird rights case. Remember the joy win they won the case. “Life’s a trip, que’ no?”

  129. AlmostFanatic

    On the topic of possible free agent pick-ups still available for the Knicks what does anyone think of Matt Barnes. I know he had quite a pitiful showing in the playoffs. But idk, I think Barnes might atleast be worth a look, no?

  130. 2FOR18

    I am “bummed out” about the Lin smear campaign and I wish him well.
    I believe there is racial component to this whole mess, and I believe CAA is in cahoots with Dolan. The melo/JR/Woodon/Warkensein connection is right there for all to see.

  131. nicos

    Brian Cronin: They’re almost certainly signing another shooting guard.

    The roster is currently:

    Felton/Kidd/Prigioni
    Smith/Copeland
    Melo/White
    STAT/Novak/Thomas
    Chandler/Camby

    DL: Shump

    That’s 13 players. They can add two more. 13 can be active every night. I bet they sign Extra E and a guard. I bet they’d love to get Brewer, but we shall see if that actually happens. If things break their way, it could be:

    Felton/Kidd/Prigioni
    Smith/Brewer
    Melo/Novak/White
    STAT/Extra E/Thomas
    Chandler/Camby

    As the standard lineup, with Copeland getting practice time in but not being activated for games. And when Shump returns, Prigioni or White go to the inactive list.

    Copeland’s been playing the 3/4 during summer league so I can’t see him getting any minutes at the 2- he’s going to have real trouble guarding threes as it is. White, maybe but I’d expect to see Kidd get at least half his minutes at the two until Shump is ready to come back.

  132. ruruland

    2FOR18:
    I am “bummed out” about the Lin smear campaign and I wish him well.
    I believe there is racial component to this whole mess, and I believe CAA is in cahoots with Dolan. The melo/JR/Woodon/Warkensein connection is right there for all to see.

    CAA is part of the zionist conspiracy and Lin was one of double-agent ninjas fighting the new world order……

  133. yellowboy90

    Brian Cronin:
    Oh right. Belinelli might not be a bad stopgap. I’d love Morrow.

    Blatche is terrible, but he is also big, so if he ever slipped through waivers, I’d hope that the Knicks would try to get him. I doubt he will. Gomes is okay, but I don’t think he fits this roster. Extra E fits perfectly. He can play the 4 and he can nail the 3.

    Maybe I have not watched Gomes in a while but to me Gomes and Shawne are nearly the same player when both are playing well. I guess I am not sold on Extra E’s shooting.

    Has Peitrus resign with the Cs and I want to take a chance on Terrence Williams but realize that a better shooter would be better.

  134. 2FOR18

    Brian Cronin:
    For what it is worth, since Kidd refused a blood alcohol test, while he will lose his license it will keep him out of jail.

    Not sure if anyone addressed this, but if anyone is ever pulled over by the po-po, it’s in your best interest to refuse a breathalyszer and/or a blood test. You willlose your license for 6 months, but it’s difficult to be convicted of a DUI/DWAI without the test results. As a rule, do not submit to any po-po request.

  135. Brian Cronin

    Copeland’s been playing the 3/4 during summer league so I can’t see him getting any minutes at the 2- he’s going to have real trouble guarding threes as it is. White, maybe but I’d expect to see Kidd get at least half his minutes at the two until Shump is ready to come back.

    Okay, I’ll have White there instead. Obviously, neither guy will enter the season in the real rotation though.

    My thing with Extra E is that he has the extra height that makes him guarding 4s realistic. Yes, the fact that Extra E only had one good season shooting the three is troubling but as a vet minimum guy who would be behind not only Amar’e but also Novak and Melo at the 4 I think Williams is worth the shot you know he is dying to get.

  136. 2FOR18

    LunaticFringe:
    I don’t expect this to be any sort of consolation, but as a Knicks fan of 48 years or thereabouts this doesn’t even make the needle on the Knicks “Are You Fuckin’ Kidding Me Meter” quiver.They’ve done much dumber shit than this. One of my earliest memories of the Knicks was listening to Bill Mazer wonder aloud “Let me see if I’ve got this straight, you actually sent someone to scout Bowling Green and decided that the real NBA prospect on that team was Butch Komives, NOT Nate Thurmond?”

    I envy you for having seen the Clyde/Reed/DeBuschere(?)/Bradley/Pearl years.

  137. Brian Cronin

    Not sure if anyone addressed this, but if anyone is ever pulled over by the po-po, it’s in your best interest to refuse a breathalyszer and/or a blood test. You willlose your license for 6 months, but it’s difficult to be convicted of a DUI/DWAI without the test results. As a rule, do not submit to any po-po request.

    While true, I think better advice is “do not drive a car while intoxicated.” ;)

  138. ruruland

    2FOR18:
    Thank you all for having this place to vent my irrational reactions to the Knicks’ irrational decisions.For long time fans, this is par for the course and possibly the last straw.For ruru, I told you so.

    Look, I get the self-pity. This is truly a dark day, and Dolan is an absolute disgrace of a human being.

    But this is not the first deal like this to happen in the universe. Fans get their hearts ripped out all the time when their guy leaves town.. I understand the circumstances of this situation were slightly different, and that there was a special kind of resonance with Lin that is extremely rare (though I think some of this is quite melodramatic and romanticized)…….

    So, I get it, but look at at a team like the Cavs for fuck’s sake. Look at what’s happened to that city…. Dolan isn’t going to live forever…and either he’s eventually going to spend enough to win, or he’s going to lose enough that he takes a hit that forces him to delegate more….. But, there are other franchises with horrible owners, some of whom completely not concerned with winning (and staying just above the cap)

  139. Brian Cronin

    The thing that gets us is not just the tough breaks, as obviously all teams get them (as you well know from all the injuries Melo’s Nuggets have suffered come playoff time) but the unforced errors just kill you.

    That said, yeah, obviously, you just have to pick up the pieces and keep on keeping on. This is still a winning basketball team, so I know I will enjoy that aspect of the team.

  140. Robtachi

    I was discussing this with my good buddy who is also a native New York die-hard like many of us, and we agreed that what makes this so hard to swallow is actually pretty simple to sum up:

    The Knicks are an organization without an identity. And it is so much harder to root for teams like that.

    I think everyone would agree that the Yankees and Giants are without question the best-run and most successful franchises in New York sports. Well, look at how they do their business and have built their identity over not even years, but decades. The Yankees are, have been for almost a century, and probably always will be the Bronx Bombers. They are always going to do what they can to be the most prolific offense in baseball, complemented by solid pitching, and that’s simply who they are. The formula has been tried, tested, successful and honed to as close to perfection as you can attain in professional sports. The Giants, for the past 30 years or so, have built the identity of being a fearsome pass-rushing defense. They haven’t always had a good or even reliably average quarterback to put it all together, but from LT to Carson to Armstead to Strahan to Tuck, Umenyiora and the next generation in Jason Pierre-Paul, that is through and through who they are and how they built the foundation of one of the only NFL franchises with four championships. The kind of solidified, reliable and proven successful identity is what I believe fans truly long for and latch so strongly onto. James Dolan can even look across the locker room to the Rangers who, possibly due to his own disinterest, have been allowed to get out from under his oppressive autocracy to start building their own reputation and personality as a hard-working team who employs talent that do their damnedest on a nightly basis to out-skate, out-hit, out-block and simply out-will the other team, and they are now enjoying a modicum of success previously inconceivable since the ’94 Stanley Cup win.

    cont’…

  141. ruruland

    Brian Cronin:
    The thing that gets us is not just the tough breaks, as obviously all teams get them (as you well know from all the injuries Melo’s Nuggets have suffered come playoff time) but the unforced errors just kill you.

    And I totally get that. I even understand wanting to switch allegiances. I also understand New Yorkers thinking they’re at the center of the universe. I’m saying sometimes it’s healthy to step back and realize this happens, has happened and will continue to happen elsewhere, too.

  142. Degree_Absolute

    In light of this most recent Knicks debacle, I think it would be cool if the writers at this site would post their reasons (if they exist) for remaining emotionally invested Knicks fans. I think it might be enlightening and cathartic for the readers (and writers) and it might convince a few people from jumping ship.

    That said, good luck with whatever this is, folks. I’m spent. Part of me wants to play the emotional pot odds, but the Knicks organization is just putrid. It is not a stretch to say that they have ruined basketball for me. Rooting for a team should be fun and, honestly, fun died a long time ago (Colonel Dolan murdered it with the wrench in the Theater at MSG). I will still be a Knicks fan, but I will be the dead inside variety. No joy, no pain, just observation. The trial emotional separation begins now. You can have the kids on weekends and holidays.

  143. 2FOR18

    jon abbey: my friend is a generally rational Pistons fan, and expects Drummond to have an impact this year. can’t say I agree with that, but there’s something.

    being a sports fan doesn’t need to be a big melodrama (no pun intended) in 2012. if the Knicks have pushed you too far for now, get League Pass, pick a Western Conference team before the season starts, and root for them also. I rooted for the awesomely entertaining (for about 40 games) Olowokandi/Miles/Odom/Q/Dooling Clippers this way, and also the first few years of SSOL in Phoenix. OKC, the Knuggets, maybe even GS, there are plenty of options.

    Lol I loved that team. The highest team ever assembled. The interview they had on, I think, ESPN, was Gold, Jerry.

  144. yellowboy90

    One thing no one has brought up and maybe its that I am off but why get Raymond if Woodson planned on using the same system as ATL? He had and wanted a Pg(slightly past prime Bibby) that could knock down the spot up 3 and that’s not Felton’s game. It maybe be me but I do not see Woody running the same O as before in Atlanta. Maybe it’s a hybrid between what he ran and what MDA ran.

  145. Brian Cronin

    And I totally get that. I even understand wanting to switch allegiances. I also understand New Yorkers thinking they’re at the center of the universe. I’m saying sometimes it’s healthy to step back and realize this happens, has happened and will continue to happen elsewhere, too.

    Wait, New York isn’t the center of the universe? You lie!

  146. Brian Cronin

    One thing no one has brought up and maybe its that I am off but why get Raymond if Woodson planned on using the same system as ATL? He had and wanted a Pg(slightly past prime Bibby) that could knock down the spot up 3 and that’s not Felton’s game. It maybe be me but I do not see Woody running the same O as before in Atlanta. Maybe it’s a hybrid between what he ran and what MDA ran.

    I think you’ll see the offense that Woody ran when he first took over, with Felton in place of Lin. Essentially D’Antoni’s offense just with more isolations.

  147. yellowboy90

    I blame Larry Brown for calling Lin just a bench player. He planted the seed. lol.

  148. nicos

    Also, shouldn’t THCJ be really pleased with this off-season? I just checked out wages of wins most valuable 100 players of the last three years and we brought in three of them- Kidd, Camby, and Felton (yes, Felton who ranked higher than Dirk, Tony Parker, Kobe, and even Dejuan Blair) all signed at extremely low numbers for that kind of production. We did lose a WOW favorite in Fields, but if you’re trying to bring in efficient players on reasonable contracts, isn’t that what the Knicks just did?
    http://wagesofwins.com/2012/07/13/the-100-most-valuable-nba-players-over-the-last-three-seasons/

  149. massive

    According to Berman:

    “Here’s deal on #Knicks thinking on Jeremy Lin and behavior since July 1. Yes, club brass fumed Rockets revised offer sheet on them after it became publicly known #Knicks would match. But their feelings on Lin has soothed. Knicks realize this could last chance to make his big score and he went after it. His agents miscalculated, telling him #Knicks would match no matter what, not realizing Felton could be an option. Once Felton was an option, Linsanity was over. Been over since Saturday night.”

  150. 2FOR18

    ruruland: Look, I get the self-pity. This is truly a dark day, and Dolan is an absolute disgrace of a human being.

    But this is not the first deal like this to happen in the universe. Fans get their hearts ripped out all the time when their guy leaves town.. I understand the circumstances of this situation were slightly different, and that there was a special kind of resonance with Lin that is extremely rare (though I think some of this is quite melodramatic and romanticized)…….

    So, I get it, but look at at a team like the Cavs for fuck’s sake. Look at what’s happened to that city…. Dolan isn’t going to live forever…and either he’s eventually going to spend enough to win, or he’s going to lose enough that he takes a hit that forces him to delegate more….. But, there are other franchises with horrible owners, some of whom completely not concerned with winning (and staying just above the cap)

    I know it’s not the first straw. That’s the point. Dolan will break your heart every time.

  151. ruruland

    I have respect for those leaving the fanbase, and I respect the principled practice of withholding support….. And frankly, I don’t have the same scars as most of you and don’t come from the same place nor, in that sense, my opinion should not the same weight asmany of you. But I also don’t like the abstract foreholding and this idea that the Knicks are forever doomed.

    I am extremely confident that the Knicks will be good and exciting next year, and that many of you will be reeled back in with this specific group, at least next year. Many of you think I’m just optimistic, some think I’m delusional, but I was right last year, too.

    At some point I know you’re going to give this team a chance.

  152. yellowboy90

    massive:
    According to Berman:

    “Here’s deal on #Knicks thinking on Jeremy Lin and behavior since July 1. Yes, club brass fumed Rockets revised offer sheet on them after it became publicly known #Knicks would match. But their feelings on Lin has soothed. Knicks realize this could last chance to make his big score and he went after it. His agents miscalculated, telling him #Knicks would match no matter what, not realizing Felton could be an option. Once Felton was an option, Linsanity was over. Been over since Saturday night.”

    If true the last chance part really stands out because that means they do not believe in the player.

  153. Brian Cronin

    Well, that is actually worse than it just being Dolan being petty. I can wrap my head around “Dolan is just a jerk” but not “Felton’s available? Fuck Lin, Felton is better! Done!”

  154. massive

    Raymond Felton was a top 100 player over the past three years? I’m sorry, but that stat has to be broken.

  155. Robtachi

    What is the Knicks’ identity? What has it been since it was Patrick Ewing and his merry band of misfits and grinders? A constantly changing, mostly unlikable team of mercenaries. This year, the Knicks finally had a chance to start forming an identity for themselves in Lin, Shumpert and to a lesser extent Fields, Jordan, Harrellson, et al, representing a bright, home-grown future, while still being able to reasonably contend for a deep playoff run or title. Now, all that is left is an injured Shumpert, who is deservedly beloved, but is far from a sure thing, and a team of mercenaries, yet again. The Knicks are still a team and an organization without an identity. What is truly confounding, and frankly disheartening as a fan, is that they seem to be willfully thus. That’s very difficult to get behind. Fans bond with teams for various reasons, and one very big one is an affinity one feels when there is something in common or a quality they admire in what they perceive a team’s personality to be. I love the Giants because they absolutely relish being doubted and labeled the underdog. They feast on that and prove their detractors wrong or go down swinging. The Yankees use their pedigree and borderline arrogance to oppress the opposition. They’re the Yankees, they’re the best, they just win, constantly, and everyone knows it. They are the ultimate lesson in pride and confidence, with a dash of unshakable swagger. Fans crave for their franchises to take on some sort of personality that they can get attached to, root for and ultimately assume ownership of.

    So I ask again: what is the Knicks identity? What personality trait does this team, or any Knicks team from the past 10-15 years, possess that makes you want to devote yourself utterly to all their successes and failures?

    For me… I couldn’t even say. And that’s a big problem.

  156. hoiboy

    Re: above Berman tweet, why is there an assumption that Lin wouldn’t be happy in Houston and would only be happy in New York? That’s the assumption behind anyone saying Lin’s “agents miscalculated”. More like Lin wanted to play for the Knicks, but didn’t mind playing for someone else (particularly someone like the Rockets, who based on what everyone is saying is a class organisation), and so they made it happen.

  157. Brian Cronin

    Agreed. I think Lin took the Knicks’ “we’ll match any offer” stuff to heart but at the same time, you don’t sign an offer sheet with a team if you’re not prepared to go to that team. If you do, you’re a moron. Lin is no moron.

  158. yellowboy90

    My thing with Lin is why not Let the Knicks know you are coming in to sign the offer sheet and maybe this is not how it works but give them a heads up when Houston changes the offer sheet. DO you have to sign it right then? I guess Houston could say take it or leave it and take it off the table if Lin wanted time to think.

    Also, I have no problem with Lin taking the money but just find it interesting the way it went down. It is what it is wish he was here but he is gone and I am already over it. Life’s to short to hold on to stuff like this.

  159. JK47

    ruruland:
    I have respect for those leaving the fanbase, and I respect the principled practice of withholding support….. And frankly, I don’t have the same scars as most of you and don’t come from the same place nor, in that sense, my opinion should not the same weight asmany of you. But I also don’t like the abstract foreholding and this idea that the Knicks are forever doomed.

    I am extremely confident that the Knicks will be good and exciting next year, and that many of you will be reeled back in with this specific group, at least next year. Many of you think I’m just optimistic, some think I’m delusional, but I was right last year, too.

    At some point I know you’re going to give this team a chance.

    At some level this is true. I’m a Raider fan. It’s a tough row to hoe, and at times it seemed like the Raiders would be the laughing stock of the NFL forever. But last year a miracle happened– Al Davis died. And then another miracle happened– the people who took over the team hired Reggie McKenzie, who actually seems to know what the hell he is doing. So miracles do happen. And maybe when James Dolan finally drops dead, just maybe I’ll consider giving the Knicks another chance.

    Until then, there’s no point in paying attention. The Knicks are a waste of my time.

  160. JK47

    I really need the Bulls to decline matching Omer Asik’s offer sheet, sticking the Rockets with him and ending their pursuit of Dwight Howard, which would leave my new flame, the Lakers, as the leading candidate for Howard.

  161. ruruland

    Robtachi:

    For me… I couldn’t even say.And that’s a big problem.

    You have two stars who are beseiged and impugned like few others, both looking for respect from the fanbase, redemption for their first two seasons…. There is a very special energy that emerges from that place…. Ama’re is working his ass off this off-season and so is Melo…..

    I personally believe that two guys who are basically ubiquitosly disliked in the interim, turning it around together against the odds is a great story line.. Both guys personal stories are great, and they’re both on the verge of irrelevance or permanent disrespect.

    They have to do this now.

    Chandler/Shumpert to most are eminintely rootable players. Amar’e is a guy who has perserved through injury after injury, and Melo is grinder in many respects.

    I think the team is going to be very tough next season, that’s when Melo is at his best…. there are energy reserves created by fear, anger, resentment….. that I think you’ll see tapped this season.

    It’s rare that you find team full of players that fit a collective identity. It’s really about how a team melds together to form an identity that allows them to be succesfully. This team is going to have a real edge to it, grittiness and they will be working from a place of underdog/forgotten

  162. Ben R

    The Knicks have an identity: Overpaid high usage scorers on the downside of their career and on the court disfunction. It is the same as it has been for the last 10 years only now our overpaid scorers are a bit better (Melo/Amare > Marbury/Z-Bo) and have Chandler to lift them up.

    We have been jettising youth for the last 15 years. We have no patience and instead of reaping the benefits of developing our own players we try to cheat the system by reaching for already developed players and then realizing after the fact that it was no accident they were on the market.

    Good teams reload with youth, bad teams build with youth, dumb teams squander their youth.

  163. BigBlueAL

    “We no longer had Lowry or Dragic,” Rockets general manager Daryl Morey said in an interview with SI.com late Tuesday night, “and at that point we thought it made sense to offer him more money and increase our chances of getting him.”

    Well at least we now know for a fact that their was an initial offer then the revised current one. Not sure if Morey instigated it or Lin’s agents. But if it was Morey (and his quote seems to suggest it was) and Lin agreed to the new deal which he had to know was much more inconvenient for the Knicks than you can justifiably put a decent amount of blame on Lin no longer being a Knick especially if as Berman says Lin didnt want to leave the Knicks and play in Houston.

    Not taking the Knicks off the hook here at all but Hahn and Berman do have a point that Lin does deserve some blame for his leaving.

  164. Robtachi

    So if my understanding of the new CBA is right, which admittedly it may not be since I couldn’t get a definitive answer from Coon’s CBA FAQ, if Lin continues to play well and Dolan sobers up to his horrible folly, the Knicks could try to trade for him as early as… January 15th? December 15th?

    This is what desperation tastes like, folks.

  165. Brian Cronin

    Well at least we now know for a fact that their was an initial offer then the revised current one. Not sure if Morey instigated it or Lin’s agents. But if it was Morey (and his quote seems to suggest it was) and Lin agreed to the new deal which he had to know was much more inconvenient for the Knicks than you can justifiably put a decent amount of blame on Lin no longer being a Knick especially if as Berman says Lin didnt want to leave the Knicks and play in Houston.

    Not taking the Knicks off the hook here at all but Hahn and Berman do have a point that Lin does deserve some blame for his leaving.

    The “blame Lin” crowd’s position rests on Lin being the one who goes back to the table. If it was Morey calling Lin to offer him more money, you can’t blame Lin for accepting an increased offer. Heck, you shouldn’t blame him for pushing for an increased offer either but you certainly can’t blame him for getting an increased offer. The Knicks told him to set his market and they’ll match. He did and then they didn’t because, apparently, they think Felton is teh awesome.

  166. Robtachi

    Robtachi:
    So if my understanding of the new CBA is right, which admittedly it may not be since I couldn’t get a definitive answer from Coon’s CBA FAQ, if Lin continues to play well and Dolan sobers up to his horrible folly, the Knicks could try to trade for him as early as… January 15th? December 15th?

    This is what desperation tastes like, folks.

    Of course this is impossible if the Knicks don’t have an exception to use. Do they? Or was it one of the many small-yet-valuable assets they shipped to Portland in order to get “The Big ASSet” ™?

  167. nicos

    massive:
    Raymond Felton was a top 100 player over the past three years? I’m sorry, but that stat has to be broken.

    Felton was pretty good his last year with Charlotte and he was okay in 2010/11. Obviously he was awful this year in Portland. I don’t think he’s a top 100 player any more than you do- I’m just surprised the WoW contingent (mainly THCJ) hasn’t mentioned that Felton might give you similar production at a fraction of the price. According to WoW, Felton’s production in 2009/10 was solidly better than what Lin produced here this year and his 2010/11 were slightly off Lin’s numbers but close enough to make him a cost effective replacement.

  168. JK47

    I don’t know what gorilla math WoW uses to make Ray Felton a top 100 player. He’s a high-usage, low-efficiency player with a decent but not great assist rate and a decent but not great turnover rate.

  169. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin: The “blame Lin” crowd’s position rests on Lin being the one who goes back to the table. If it was Morey calling Lin to offer him more money, you can’t blame Lin for accepting an increased offer. Heck, you shouldn’t blame him for pushing for an increased offer either but you certainly can’t blame him for getting an increased offer. The Knicks told him to set his market and they’ll match. He did and then they didn’t because, apparently, they think Felton is teh awesome.

    Yeah, the Felton is just as good if not better than Lin stuff is tough to swallow.

  170. Brian Cronin

    I don’t know what gorilla math WoW uses to make Ray Felton a top 100 player. He’s a high-usage, low-efficiency player with a decent but not great assist rate and a decent but not great turnover rate.

    If you go just by his last three years, his 2009-10 and his 2010-11 were likely good enough to make his 2011-12 not look so awful.

    Here are his advanced stats for the last three seasons combined:

    PER 15.3
    TS% .516
    EF% .479
    ASSIST RATE 32.9
    TURNOVER RATE 17.0
    USAGE RATE 20.5
    WS/48 0.89

    I mean, as a backup I’d love him. He’s not a terrible starter, though. Just that if you said, “Hey, who would you rather have, Felton or Lin?” I’d take Lin every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

  171. BigBlueAL

    The thing is I actually liked Felton alot when he played here and I hope after last season he will be determined to have a nice bounce-back season and play similar to how he did with the Knicks originally or how he did in his final season with Charlotte as was mentioned above were some pretty decent seasons.

    Obviously though that would be best case scenarios for him where as with Lin the hope was best case scenario was Top 10 PG type play for many years to come. But Felton did just turn 28 so its not like he is some washed up over-the-hill player. If he could somehow improve his 3pt shooting to the high 30′s % that would be huge but doubt it (that is one area though where age shouldnt keep him from possibly improving).

  172. Brian Cronin

    A fascinating aspect of Felton’s game is how he’ll be 180 degrees from Shump and Fields in that Felton never shies away from taking the big shot. Even if him taking the big shot is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Not even JR tries to take the big shot at the end of the game instead of Melo. Felton, though, I think might. I mean, you have to figure he will be dissuaded from that when he gets here, but it will be interesting to see if his “I’m the man!” moments will be beaten out of him at the end of the games. Really, when the game is close and the seconds are ticking down, only one of two players on the Knicks should be taking the shot, Melo or Novak.

  173. JK47

    I was actually very happy to see Felton leave the team the first time, because he’s a chucker. He was second on the team in FGA and before Melo and Chauncey came he was second on the team in USG%, despite being surrounded by more efficient scorers. His favorite shots are the 3-pointer, which he shoots inefficiently, and the 16-20 footer, which he shoots inefficiently.

  174. 2FOR18

    ruruland: CAA ispart of the zionist conspiracy and Lin was one of double-agent ninjas fighting the new world order……

    Finally we agree

  175. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, I remember the debates we used to have pre-Melo about how Felton was taking shots Gallo should have been getting. The shot attempts should have been STAT #1, Gallo #2 and Felton #3 but instead, Felton was practically on top of STAT for #1.

    Early in the season, Felton made some big ill-advised threes and from that point on, if he had the ball he was taking the shot. Interestingly, when the Knicks were mired in a bad stretch and Felton was doing particularly poorly, he eventually began to let Gallo shoot more at the end of the game and it worked out well.

    You’d have to imagine he realizes Melo is the guy who is going to have the ball the most and he won’t try to interfere. We shall see, though.

  176. BigBlueAL

    Yeah I was thrilled because Billups was such a huge upgrade offensively compared to Felton no doubt. But Felton was fun to watch after the slow start and he and Amar’e really did develop some nice chemistry. Also Felton pushed the tempo and ran the break very well once he got comfortable under D’Antoni.

    Just saying Felton doesnt deserve the venom he will no doubt be getting from now until the season starts. Its not his fault the Knicks essentially chose him over Lin and Felton is signed to a very fair contract. If he plays like crap once the season starts trust me I will be all over him too but Im looking forward to seeing how he plays this season.

  177. Brian Cronin

    Oh, I agree. Felton is unfairly going to get ripped for just being the guy who took Lin’s spot. It is not like he has some animus towards Lin.

  178. nicos

    Brian Cronin: If you go just by his last three years, his 2009-10 and his 2010-11 were likely good enough to make his 2011-12 not look so awful.

    Here are his advanced stats for the last three seasons combined:

    PER15.3
    TS%.516
    EF% .479
    ASSIST RATE32.9
    TURNOVER RATE17.0
    USAGE RATE20.5
    WS/48 0.89

    I mean, as a backup I’d love him. He’s not a terrible starter, though. Just that if you said, “Hey, who would you rather have, Felton or Lin?” I’d take Lin every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

    And if you chalk up last year to being fat and unhappy the numbers look much better- not a top ten guy but probably 13-16 and not far off from Lin. Of course the hope was that Lin was going to get better- that 13-16 is probably Felton’s ceiling. That said, Lin never clicked with Melo or Amar’e (understandable given no training camp and they were both out once he did crack the starting lineup) and I guess the thinking was that if Felton is a better fit with those guys (we know he can play with Amar’e) then maybe that makes up for the shortfall in his personal production. That has to be what the Knicks were thinking, right?

  179. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin:
    Yeah, I remember the debates we used to have pre-Melo about how Felton was taking shots Gallo should have been getting. The shot attempts should have been STAT #1, Gallo #2 and Felton #3 but instead, Felton was practically on top of STAT for #1.

    Early in the season, Felton made some big ill-advised threes and from that point on, if he had the ball he was taking the shot. Interestingly, when the Knicks were mired in a bad stretch and Felton was doing particularly poorly, he eventually began to let Gallo shoot more at the end of the game and it worked out well.

    You’d have to imagine he realizes Melo is the guy who is going to have the ball the most and he won’t try to interfere. We shall see, though.

    Lets not rehash the end of the Thunder game debacle from that season :-)

  180. Brian Cronin

    Oh man, you just had to bring that up, didn’t you! Gallo was 7-12 (3 for 5 from three) and didn’t get a shot attempt in the last six minutes of that game while Felton, as you note, missed the Knicks’ last three shots (and took their last five shots, missing four)!

  181. BigBlueAL

    Yeah admittedly I think I was one of the guys kinda blaming Gallo for being too passive and you were mad about all the Felton Iso’s late in the game and I was like what else are they supposed to do lol

  182. 2FOR18

    At this point the Nuggets have a better record than the Knicks since the trade. I wonder when/if that will change.

  183. Brian Cronin

    Yeah admittedly I think I was one of the guys kinda blaming Gallo for being too passive and you were mad about all the Felton Iso’s late in the game and I was like what else are they supposed to do lol

    Hehe, I looked at the comments for that thread. I particularly like my nickname for Ray – as a nod to Robert Horry’s “Big Shot Rob,” it was “Brick Shot Ray.”

  184. knickfan92

    I’m suprised at how many people are giving up the knicks just because lin is gone. I mean I’m dissapointed as well but you all have to calm down. Lin will probably never be a player that can get a team over the hump. I mean I have fond memories of lin like how I bought a linsanity shirt on the day he went off on the mavericks. I still plan to wear it for good memories but we are not losing a hof here guys. Lin probably will never make as much money as he’s going to make in this contract ever again. Still wish him the best and go knicks!!!

  185. Robtachi

    I can’t see myself not liking Jeremy Lin. He was a huge part of some of the happiest basketball moments I’ve ever had and it doesn’t matter who he’s playing for. I want him to do well. Fuck it, I want the kid to be a star. He is awesome and watching him play made me ridiculously happy. My girlfriend and I found a new avenue to bond with each other through watching the Knicks win with Lin. There’s just more to this than basketball for a lot of people. Like Messier guaranteeing game 6 and delivering on his promise to end the misery of Rangers fans everywhere, like A-Rod’s transcendent redemption in the 2009 playoffs leading to the Yanks championship, there are certain things in sports that alter your perceptions of a player/team forever and you will always associate them in that way.

    I’m going out tomorrow and buying a Jeremy Lin Knicks #17 off clearance. And I’m always going to hope against hope that he ends up back here. And anytime the Rockets aren’t playing the Knicks, I hope he’s dropping 25 points and 11 dimes on fools who still don’t think he can hack it. Possibly just to satisfy my own desire to be proven right that it was stupid for the Knicks to let him walk. But mostly because I just like the kid and his game so damn much.

    I’m also going to hope the Knicks kick fucking ass next year, like always. But I am pissed. I’m pissed at Dolan. I’m pissed it can be construed that the Knicks let such a great thing get away from them. But depriving myself of fandom accomplishes little, I think. Lin made it easy for me to root for him. Now he’s gone, and it’s on Carmelo. I’m neither here nor there on him.

    Make me like you, Melo. That’s what I want. I want you to be so good, and for you to make my Knicks so good, that it’s as easy to root for you and them as it was to root for Lin.

  186. yellowboy90

    Anthony Randolph to the Nuggets. I wonder how many players from Denver end up Knicks and how many players involved in the trade land on the other teams.

    Who is their starting four?

  187. Brian Cronin

    What a moronic article. As if it were Lin or Melo. I mean, what the fuck? It’d be like the Bulls just letting Scottie Pippen go for nothing and having articles saying, “Well, he’s not Michael Jordan.” I just don’t know what he was possibly trying to get across in that article. “The Knicks didn’t lose 2012 Melo.” Uh….okay? What the hell does that have to do with anything?

  188. Brian Cronin

    Anthony Randolph to the Nuggets. I wonder how many players from Denver end up Knicks and how many players involved in the trade land on the other teams.

    Who is their starting four?

    I like but not love the move. Faried is their starting four so I would have liked them to get a 4 who could shoot from the outside, but still, if they play Randolph at the 4 (and with that lineup they pretty much would have to) he will be a good back-up four. The Nuggets are lucky that, so far at least, restricted free agency is helping keep McGee’s market value down.

  189. Brian Cronin

    I do love the fact that Randolph only seems to end up in places where there is a solid 4 in front of him. So weird. Especially here, where he chose to go to Denver.

  190. Brian Cronin

    I see that they amnestied the Birdman in the deal. The Birdman could be useful for the Knicks, but not really. Three years/$6 million for Randolph. Good value signing. Got him cheap and if he flames out, they’re not on the hook for a lot of money.

  191. TyNittyOP

    I think that this was agood decision. I think Lin was overrated. I am happy that we wont have to pay him 14 million dollars in 2015.

  192. Thomas B.

    KnicksFanInVA:
    Is this as bad as Cuban letting Nash go to the Suns?

    Far worse! Lin is on the cusp of being a 5 time MVP at the very least.

    Sheesh. Take a Xanax people. This aint as bad as you think it is.

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