Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, July 30, 2014

A Fitting Return

ESPN New York’s Jared Zwerling reported on Saturday afternoon that soon-to-be free agent Nate Robinson would welcome a return back to the New York Knicks. ”Nate’s first thought would be to remain with the Bulls, but if the Knicks’ opportunity presented itself, I am sure he would appreciate an opportunity to play in New York again,” said Robinson’s agent Aaron Goodwin in the piece.

For fans who only know of Robinson from his days as a Knick, the name conjures rambunctiousness, nonconformity and an overwhelming amount of  bad shots. However, since his tenure with the Knicks – which ended midway through the 2010 season – “Nate the Great” has matured into a much more calm and effective scoring threat.

(For detail into his journey from a shot-crazy Knickerbocker to a formidable point guard in Chicago you can read my profile on Robinson here.)

Although Robinson was still more inconsistent than many would have liked this season, I believe he can be of plenty use if he signs with the Knicks this summer. Coming from the guy who slaughtered J.R. Smith for his erratic play, it sounds odd. I know. But, there does lie a position on the team in which Nate Robinson can be not only an efficient scorer but one of the best in the league to do it off the bench.

This season, Robinson was signed to score off the bench for the Chicago Bulls with star point guard Derrick Rose sitting out until the Earth blows itself up. In the 2086 minutes Robinson played this season, (a career-high) he spent 306 of those on the floor alongside Bulls’ replacement starter at the one Kirk Hinrich. Hinrich is a ten-year veteran of the league and a solid general of an offense. Now let’s look at Robinson’s efficiency with Hinrich on and off the floor:

Stat Hinrich on court Hinrich off court
FG% 45.8 42.8
eFG% 54.7 50
TS% 56.6 52.9
TOV% 9.3 10.3
USG% 33.3 25.1

As you can see, Robinson becomes a deadly scorer with a stable point guard in play. There is a bit of distortion considering Robinson only played on the court with Hinrich for 306 minutes, but the results are glaring. Only two players since the birth of the NBA have even tallied the same minutes, USG% and eFG% marks over a season as Robinson did in his time with Hinrich: Michael Jordan and LeBron James. Again, I think small-sample size may have something to do with this.

Robinson transitions from a two-guard on offense to a point on defense when playing with Hinrich, thus maintaining his impressive scoring while also being less of a cancer on the defensive end. Playing off the ball on the scoring end means less turnovers from Robinson as you can see above, something the Knicks modeled themselves after this season. Also note that the Bulls don’t have another point guard like Kirk Hinrich, while the Knicks will potentially have two next year.

Jason Kidd is mulling retirement, with the other option being playing through the final two years of his contract. Meanwhile, Pablo Prigioni is also debating whether or not to stay in New York or go back to Argentina. Yes, these are two “what-ifs?” that we are basing whether or not Nate Robinson is of value to the Knicks. I also failed to mention the money factor, as the Knicks can only realistically offer the mini-MLE to Robinson in order to have a shot at signing him.

It is safe to assume one of the aforementioned names will be sporting the orange and blue next season, and in this case I am all for the return of Nate Robinson. His spark off the bench would be of good use when playing alongside a capable floor leader, and I have no doubts that Knick fans will welcome him with open arms. Worst-case scenario, he stinks but he’s super fun to watch. Another Dunk Contest please?

61 comments on “A Fitting Return

  1. Frank

    The decision could very much be:

    +Nate but -Prigs and -Copeland.
    That’s a much tougher call if Nate is going to get the mini-MLE.
    Both Prigs and Copeland are probably each worth the mini-MLE IMHO. Nate for Prigs wouldn’t be terribly bad trade given Pablo’s age, although I think this team needs someone like Pablo more than it needs someone like Nate.

    Cope is due for for a 61% raise even with just the minimum. Wonder if he would bite at a 1 year deal at the minimum with a player option on a 2nd year (basically 2 years with 1.62M guaranteed to him), with the payoff being that we’d have early bird rights on him the following year. That’d be a huge risk for him though– he might just get a full mini-MLE-type offer sheet basically guaranteeing him $10MM.

    Or theoretically, maybe Nate would be willing to take slightly less, say $2MM starting salary with a player option on year 2, and Cope would get the same starting at $1MM with player option on year 2. Tough financial pill for both to swallow, but that would be great for the Knicks.

  2. flossy

    Nooooooope. No thanks. Nate has matured as a player (somewhat) but if your guards off the bench are JR (and Chris?) Smith, Nate Robinson and Mike Bib–er, Jason Kidd… well, you’re gonna have a Bad Time.

  3. Vinny L.

    There should picket signs in front of Dolan’s offices: We Want Nate! We Want Nate! We Want Nate!

    Totally different player from the erratic Nate we drafted. Gutsy, poised, quick penetrating at will, and knows how to take over games when nervous Melo and JR starts throwing up bricks. Ball handling and mid to to long range jumper improved.

    My favorite Nate moment this year is when the little big guy single handedly beat the breaks off the knicks ending our 16 game winning streak. I couldn’t believe it was the same erratic guy that the garden still loved.

  4. Vinny L.

    Woodson should be fired.

    The “small ball” advocates saying the Knicks won game 5 because Woodson started Prigiphony don’t know what they’re are talking about.

    A look at game 5′s third & fourth quarter clearly shows that the Knicks won because they went with size and offensive threats. Non-threatening old guys Prig & Kidd SAT!

    http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=400464468&period=0

    Game 6 was rigged:

    Knicks: 34 Personal Fouls
    Pacers: 16 Personal Fouls
    Pacers: 46 free throw attempts
    Knicks: 18
    Fouled out: Shump, Tyson, Kenyon.
    Pacers: None

    But Woodson made matters worse by sitting hot Shump and Cope in the 4th quarter and going with Prigioni! Even Felton didn’t see time until the end of the 4th:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=400464469&period=0

    Why would you take 2 of your guns off the floor in a Do or Die game like that when they’re hitting shots!? So what if they foul out.

    Get rid of Woodson, Kidd, Prigioni, Camby, Sheed, and anybody who thought it was a good idea to surround Chandler with 40 year old bigs. I want Prime Nate (Robinson) and Van Gundy.

  5. Frank

    flossy:
    Nooooooope.No thanks.Nate has matured as a player (somewhat) but if your guards off the bench are JR (and Chris?) Smith, Nate Robinson and Mike Bib–er, Jason Kidd… well, you’re gonna have a Bad Time.

    The whole point of having Nate on that 2nd unit would be so JR doesn’t go into iso-mode. With Nate penetrating, JR would be a spot-up shooter or a penetrator off a kick-out/run-out, which is where he would be best.

    And find me another player that is available, supposedly wants to play for the Knicks (at a discount?), and can have the impact Nate can have for that price (mini-MLE or less).

  6. flossy

    Frank: The whole point of having Nate on that 2nd unit would be so JR doesn’t go into iso-mode.With Nate penetrating, JR would be a spot-up shooter or a penetrator off a kick-out/run-out, which is where he would be best.

    And find me another player that is available, supposedly wants to play for the Knicks (at a discount?), and can have the impact Nate can have for that price (mini-MLE or less).

    Except Nate Robinson is not really a PG, and replacing Prigs with Nate would mean Felton is our only capable PG (corpse of Kidd excluded). I would absolutely, 110% rather keep Prigioni than Nate Robinson and would happly offer Prigs more than vets min if that’s what it takes.

    If letting Nate Robinson go into chucking mode is our means of preventing JR Smith from going into chucking mode, sign me up for NOT THAT, PLEASE. That combination is a veritable black hole of basketball smarts.

  7. Vinny L.

    No. I want Nate as floor general, back up to Felton. You take away his amazing speed and dribble penetration when you assign him to a wing.

    Dangerous:

    Felton/Nate
    Shump/JR
    Melo/Cope
    K-Mart/???/???
    Chandler/???

  8. Vinny L.

    What if Nate took the mini mid-level exception for three years starting at around $3 mill per?

    If he’s willing to take a pay cut like JR did when he took less money to be a Knick, Robinson can re-join the Knicks and build toward Early Bird rights or normal Bird rights so the Knicks can re-sign him to a bigger deal down the road.

  9. Frank

    flossy: Except Nate Robinson is not really a PG, and replacing Prigs with Nate would mean Felton is our only capable PG (corpse of Kidd excluded).I would absolutely, 110% rather keep Prigioni than Nate Robinson and would happly offer Prigs more than vets min if that’s what it takes.

    If letting Nate Robinson go into chucking mode is our means of preventing JR Smith from going into chucking mode, sign me up for NOT THAT, PLEASE.That combination is a veritable black hole of basketball smarts.

    Agree that Prigs probably fits this team better, but now that Kidd has retired, It might not be a bad idea to try to get BOTH somehow.

    btw I think you are selling Nate short a little bit. If you look at guards who have averaged (per 36) 18p 6a, with a TOV% <13 and at least a league average TS (I chose 53.5%), there really aren't many of them in the last 5 years –
    CP3
    Wade
    Ginobili
    Parker
    Ridnour
    Jameer Nelson
    Nate Robinson

    Even if he's closer in valuation to Ridnour than any of the others, Ridnour still makes 4+MM/year.

    Meanwhile, Zwerling just had a great stat on J-Kidd, who is the all-time leader in triple-doubles with 107. Lebron is 2nd with 36. That is RIDICULOUS.

  10. flossy

    Vinny L.:
    What if Nate took the mini mid-level exception for three years starting at around $3 mill per?

    If he’s willing to take a pay cut like JR did when he took less money to be a Knick, Robinson can re-join the Knicks and build toward Early Bird rights or normal Bird rights so the Knicks can re-sign him to a bigger deal down the road.

    Why the hell would we want to give him a bigger deal down the road?? He’s a 29 year old, 5’9″ SG who will always be a defensively liability.

  11. Nick C.

    For fucks sake if we are arguing about getting Nate Robinson then this team is doomed. I hated him the last time. The look at me masturbatory persona is just unrootable no matter the laundry. His number are better but he still looks like the same Nate to me, the king of the down 20 comebacks that fall short (even though I was rooting like hell for him when Chicago snapped Miami’s win streak).

  12. Vinny L.

    @Flossy

    You advocate for Prig who’s pushing 40, who averages a couple of points and assist a game, has no transition game. He got destroyed by Indiana when it counted (playoffs).

    Compare that to Nate vs Brooklyn & game 1 Miami. Factor in that durable Nate will be 32 with another good 3 years of good basketball left in him, and your comparison to Prig is silly.

    I don’t get this fascination with Prig. I don’t . Sorry.

  13. Vinny L.

    I guess we don’t have to worry about Larkin now, and go after Gorgui Dieng or Jeff Withey in the draft?

  14. ess-dog

    Hoorah on Kidd retiring – much respect to him though for a great career.

    As far as Nate goes, I’m not sure he’s necessary, except as a back up to JR who’s already a back up. So it would be an 11th man role, which I’m not sure Nate wants. Plus JR is a better defender.

    I’d rather focus on getting better on the defensive side: a back up for Chandler, a 3 that can defend, and a pg that can defend and distribute.

  15. massive

    Small ball was not going to save the Knicks. Melo had a torn labrum, JR needed his knee drained, and Tyson Chandler had a bad neck. Jason Kidd couldn’t shoot. That is what ultimately did us in. The Knicks’ training staff is what did us in more than Woodson’s coaching.

    Stop acting like this team wasn’t doomed the minute we were all calling for Chris Copeland to save the day. Playing Cope wouldn’t have been so bad considering how much the Pacers struggle on offense, but it wasn’t going to save us considering how injured our top guns were.

  16. flossy

    Vinny L.:
    @Flossy

    You advocate for Prig who’s pushing 40, who averages a couple of points and assist a game, has no transition game. He got destroyed by Indiana when it counted (playoffs).

    Compare that to Nate vs Brooklyn & game 1 Miami. Factor in that durable Nate will be 32 with another good 3 years of good basketball left in him, and your comparison to Prig is silly.

    I don’t get this fascination with Prig. I don’t . Sorry.

    Prigioni is 35, not pushing 40. He was our best defensive PG (something Nate Robinson SUCKS at, btw), ran the PnR to perfection, shot 40% from 3 and made other players better. There are other ways in impact a game than by shooting, you know. We already had the #3 offense in the league last year.

    Nate Robinson is a pint-sized SG who is good at one thing only: taking shots. He’s a turnstile on defense and has demonstrated time and again that he can’t act like a professional if he’s not getting the playing time he thinks he deserves. We already have someone on this team who is 9″ taller and does everything Nate Robinson does.

  17. EB

    Vinny L.:
    No. I want Nate as floor general, back up to Felton. You take away his amazing speed and dribble penetration when you assign him to a wing.

    Dangerous:

    Felton/Nate
    Shump/JR
    Melo/Cope
    K-Mart/???/???
    Chandler/???

    Did you even read the article???

  18. EB

    Do we actually know that we have JR back? Nate would be a suitable alternative to him, only problem is he can’t defend wings. That said, we’ve been playing a two point guard offense anyway.

  19. SeeWhyDee77

    Frank: The decision could very much be:

    +Nate but -Prigs and -Copeland.That’s a much tougher call if Nate is going to get the mini-MLE.Both Prigs and Copeland are probably each worth the mini-MLE IMHO. Nate for Prigs wouldn’t be terribly bad trade given Pablo’s age, although I think this team needs someone like Pablo more than it needs someone like Nate.

    Cope is due for for a 61% raise even with just the minimum. Wonder if he would bite at a 1 year deal at the minimum with a player option on a 2nd year (basically 2 years with 1.62M guaranteed to him), with the payoff being that we’d have early bird rights on him the following year. That’d be a huge risk for him though– he might just get a full mini-MLE-type offer sheet basically guaranteeing him $10MM.

    Or theoretically, maybe Nate would be willing to take slightly less, say $2MM starting salary with a player option on year 2, and Cope would get the same starting at $1MM with player option on year 2. Tough financial pill for both to swallow, but that would be great for the Knicks.

    I wa wondering how he would fit financially because I’m not sure if we’re ready to commit to Prigs as the primary backup at point. Now..if we can draft a guy like Bullocks to back Shump up at the 2..I’m cooll with Nate comin home. Especially with Kidd retiring. But unfortunately we can’t afford him, Prigs, and Cope..because whether we re-sign JR or not we don’t save money there. So..we probably are gonna hafta look for a backup point in the draft. Sucks.

  20. Mulligan

    EB: Didyou even read the article???

    I’m convinced that Vinny L. is actually Cock Jowles’ alter-ego. Bravo sir! A masterful piece of trolling.

  21. EB

    Where’s Ephus? I read on ESPN that Kidd retiring frees up the full mid level and the bi-annual, is this true/what other options do we get? I defer to the expert.

  22. Frank

    EB:
    Where’s Ephus? I read on ESPN that Kidd retiring frees up the full mid level and the bi-annual, is this true/what other options do we get? I defer to the expert.

    I’m no ephus but I’m pretty sure the full MLE and the BAE are still off-limits to us. As soon as you use one of those, you become hard-capped at the apron – which for 2013-14 is $75.6 MM. Even without Kidd we are still >$70M not counting JR, Cope, and Prigs. And if you receive a player in S&T, you are also hard-capped, so say goodbye to those dreams as well.

  23. max fisher-cohen

    With Jason Kidd retiring, we have the following guaranteed contracts:

    Stoudemire: $21.7m
    Anthony: $21.5m
    Chandler: $14.2m
    Camby: $3.4m
    Novak: $3.8m
    Felton: $4.2m
    Shumpert: $1.8m
    24th pick: $1.0m
    4 empty roster spots: $2.0m

    Total: $73.6m
    Tax apron: $74.8m (rumored)

    Because we’d be below the apron, we would be eligible for sign and trades THAT DO NOT PUT US OVER THE APRON.

    “This exception is available only when a team is below the “apron” (i.e., not paying luxury tax, or less than $4 million above the tax line). This determination is made after the exception is used, so a team below the apron cannot use this exception if doing so takes it above the apron. It cannot be used by a team that has already used the Taxpayer Mid-Level Exception or the Room Mid-Level exception.”

    “any team that uses its Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception cannot go above the apron for the remainder of that season. In other words, once a team uses its Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, the apron effectively becomes a hard cap for the remainder of that season4. This eliminates any potential loophole where a team could first use its full Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception and subsequently add salary to go above the apron, since adding salary first and then using the exception would be illegal.”

    – from CBAFAQ.com

    Basically, the answer is that we cannot use the MLE unless we drop about $4m more in salary (hey there, Steve Novak!) and we couldn’t re-sign JR Smith for anything other than the mid-level or as a chunk of our MLE if we were to drop that salary.

    The sign and trade thing though is interesting and could be of use to us in a trade where we use some of those partially guaranteed dudes along with a 2nd round pick to pick up a guy who another team wasn’t planning on re-signing.

  24. massive

    ess-dog:
    Alright! let’s start forcing the CP3 to NYK trade!

    I was being more conservative with a Felton/Novak sign and trade for Paul Millsap. I’d be fine starting Pablo and having him run P&R sets. He’d need a back-up for sure, so one of Shane Larkin and Dennis Schroeder would have to fall to us at #24.

    Millsap to NYK!

  25. EB

    ess-dog:
    Alright! let’s start forcing the CP3 to NYK trade!

    Why stop there?? CP3 and Howard!!! Cuz big market and Championships!!!

  26. SeeWhyDee77

    Hubert: Are we talking about Nate & JR…together? I can’t handle that. No way.

    Rite..I would hope that we lose JR in this scenario and draft a guy like Bullock or Hardaway Jr to replace JR

  27. Hubert

    Vinny L.:
    What if Nate took the mini mid-level exception for three years starting at around $3 mill per?

    If he’s willing to take a pay cut like JR did when he took less money to be a Knick,

    Wow, two crazy misconceptions in one.

    That would be a pay raise for Nate, who earned $1.1mm this year, and is only aiming for our mini-MLE because he can’t find another team willing to offer him $3 million.

    And there is still no evidence that JR had a better offer from anyone than the $2.5 mil we offered him last year.

  28. EB

    In all seriousness I’d go for a Paul Millsap S&T, or what do you think Reddick/Ben Gordon/Mayo/Kevin Martin will go for?

  29. Vinny L.

    @EB

    Yeah, I read the article. Did you?

    Here’s what caught my eye:

    “As you can see, Robinson becomes a deadly scorer with a stable point guard in play. There is a bit of distortion considering Robinson only played on the court with Hinrich for 306 minutes,” [Ya think]

    “Robinson transitions from a two-guard on offense to a point on defense when playing with Hinrich, thus maintaining his impressive scoring while also being less of a cancer on the defensive end. Playing off the ball on the scoring end means less turnovers from Robinson as you can see above, something the Knicks modeled themselves after this season. Also note that the Bulls don’t have another point guard like Kirk Hinrich, while the Knicks will potentially have two next year.”

    End Quote

    I think the blogger is suggesting Nate move to 2 guard (presumingly with Prigioni running the Point) when it was the Nate who was running Point General that ended the Knicks & Miami’s winning streak (regular season), picked apart Brooklyn in round 1 playoffs, and gave Lebron & Co. a scare in game 1 of that series.

    Does that make me a troll because I want to see Prig gone, an Nate come back to the Garden.

  30. johnno

    massive: I’d be fine starting Pablo and having him run P&R sets. He’d need a back-up for sure, so one of Shane Larkin and Dennis Schroeder would have to fall to us at #24.

    You would be comfortable with Prigioni being the starter and his only backup being a rookie late first round draft pick? Hmmm. Maybe Toney Douglas is willing to come back. Then again, Baron Davis might be ready to come back by next season. Or better yet, maybe we can make Melo a point forward…

  31. ephus

    First, the 2011 CBA is finally on line. http://www.ipmall.info/hosted_resources/SportsEntLaw_Institute/NBA_CBA(2011)_(newversion_reflectsJeremyLinRuling)May30_2013.pdf
    Hooray for us geeks!

    Second, Frank is right. If you use the full MLE, you are hard capped at the top of the Apron ($4 million over the luxury tax level). Knicks are likely going to be over the apron, so they could not use the full MLE. So, if the Knicks do not pay Kidd (it’s their option), they would reduce their salary cap number by $3.1 million. Without Kidd or JR Smith (who almost certainly will not exercise his $2.9 million player option), the Knicks are at $70 million for next season – the luxury tax level.

    My goal is to do a full “State of Salary Cap” article around June 30 (i.e. just before the new Free Agent period) like I did last year. Too much can happen between now and then for it to be worthwhile for me to do it now.

  32. Vinny L.

    @Hubert

    Remember I said this once July 1st rolls around:

    1. Nate’s end of season and playoff heroics is going to have teams throwing 3 or 4 mill per at him.

    2. Prig is an OK player, but we don’t need em. Copeland will get offered more money than Prig even though Woodson REFUSED to give Cope playing time!

  33. EB

    Vinny L.:
    @EB

    Yeah, I read the article. Did you?

    Here’s what caught my eye:

    “As you can see, Robinson becomes a deadly scorer with a stable point guard in play. There is a bit of distortion considering Robinson only played on the court with Hinrich for 306 minutes,” [Ya think]

    “Robinson transitions from a two-guard on offense to a point on defense when playing with Hinrich, thus maintaining his impressive scoring while also being less of a cancer on the defensive end. Playing off the ball on the scoring end means less turnovers from Robinson as you can see above, something the Knicks modeled themselves after this season. Also note that the Bulls don’t have another point guard like Kirk Hinrich, while the Knicks will potentially have two next year.”

    End Quote

    I think the blogger is suggesting Nate move to 2 guard (presumingly with Prigioni running the Point) when it was the Nate who was running Point General that ended the Knicks & Miami’s winning streak (regular season), picked apart Brooklyn in round 1 playoffs, and gave Lebron & Co. a scare in game 1 of that series.

    Does that make me a troll because I want to see Prig gone, an Nate come back to the Garden.

    You suggest he will be less useful playing off ball which is in direct contradiction of the stats presented. Yeah its a small sample but its a pretty glaring difference in efficiency and usage. Its about the difference between Carmelo Anthony and JR Smith.

  34. Vinny L.

    ephus says:

    “Frank is right. If you use the full MLE, you are hard capped at the top of the Apron ($4 million over the luxury tax level). Knicks are likely going to be over the apron, so they could not use the full MLE. So, if the Knicks do not pay Kidd (it’s their option), they would reduce their salary cap number by $3.1 million.”

    Come Get It Nate!

    CAMBY: RETIRE!

  35. ephus

    Vinny L.:

    Come Get It Nate!

    CAMBY: RETIRE!

    If Camby were to retire, he would walk away from $7.5 million over the next two years. If the Knicks do not pay that money, they would free another $3.4 million in cap space for this year.

    Unlike Kidd, Camby does not seem to be a likely candidate for a big $$$ contract as an analyst or coach. And, for those who are looking for the loopholes, the CBA explicitly says you cannot pay a retired player an above-market contract as a coach/consultant in order to get their contract off of your cap number.

  36. ephus

    EB:
    In all seriousness I’d go for a Paul Millsap S&T, or what do you think Reddick/Ben Gordon/Mayo/Kevin Martin will go for?

    If the Knicks are paying the luxury tax for 2013-14, they cannot receive a newly signed free agent in a S&T. That is one of the changes for this season that was part of the 2011 CBA. So Millsap cannot come here unless the Knicks get under the Apron (including his salary).

  37. max fisher-cohen

    haha, what if kidd retired so he could replace Woodson as coach? Seriously, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s at least an assistant here next year. Heck, it wouldn’t surprise me if he ended up head coach of the Clippers.

  38. Donnie Walsh

    ephus:
    So, if the Knicks do not pay Kidd (it’s their option), they would reduce their salary cap number by $3.1 million.

    How is it the Knick’s option? Kidd has guaranteed money due to him for the next two years. The Knicks have to pay that, unless they mutually come to terms on a buyout, right?

  39. max fisher-cohen

    ephus: If the Knicks are paying the luxury tax for 2013-14, they cannot receive a newly signed free agent in a S&T.That is one of the changes for this season that was part of the 2011 CBA.So Millsap cannot come here unless the Knicks get under the Apron (including his salary).

    This isn’t that different from how things were before, when the salaries had to come close to matching. In either case, NY would probably have to bribe a team in any sign and trade with Shumpert and then use the bad contracts of Novak and Camby to match salaries. That gets them up to about $9m, which is still probably less than Millsap is hoping for and is also probably more than NY would be willing to give up.

  40. Hubert

    max fisher-cohen:
    haha, what if kidd retired so he could replace Woodson as coach? Seriously, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s at least an assistant here next year.

    Along with Sheed, right?

  41. Hubert

    can the knicks arrange something whereby we pay guarantee Kidd’s salary this year in exchange for making his 3rd year nonguaranteed?

    Because if we did, we’d have a little over $7 million in nonguaranteed contracts for 2014-15 between Kidd and Camby, and that ain’t bad.

  42. max fisher-cohen

    Donnie Walsh: How is it the Knick’s option? Kidd has guaranteed money due to him for the next two years. The Knicks have to pay that, unless they mutually come to terms on a buyout, right?

    If a player chooses not to fulfill his contract by retiring, and the team “wants him to keep playing” they don’t have to pay him. http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q61

    I’m sure kidd and NY management has discussed this and perhaps NY has secretly promised a job as an assistant coach or something to cover the difference if they indeed decide not to pay Kidd.

  43. Donnie Walsh

    max fisher-cohen:
    I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s at least an assistant here next year. Heck, it wouldn’t surprise me if he ended up head coach of the Clippers.

    The DUIs and the domestic abuse charges could hamper him, no?

  44. Brian Cronin

    Kidd should definitely at least be an assistant. But I bet he wants to take a year off first.

  45. yoda4554

    Regarding PG options next year: net +/-, 2012-2013 Knicks (at least 15% of team minutes played):

    Prigioni: +4.5
    Chandler: +3.8
    Anthony: +3.2
    Felton: +2.5
    Smith: +2.3
    Novak: +2.1
    Kidd: +0.4
    Copeland: -0.5
    Brewer: -2.9
    Stoudemire: -3.0
    Shumpert: -4.8

    Re-signing Prigioni should be among the team’s top priorities.

  46. massive

    johnno: You would be comfortable with Prigioni being the starter and his only backup being a rookie late first round draft pick?

    Andrew Luck and Mark Sanchez were high first round QBs. Are you suggesting that both deserved the same responsibilities coming into the NFL? Landry Fields was a day one starter at pick #39 and a damn good one before the team’s dynamic underwent a change. Shane Larkin and Dennis Schroeder are not your average “late first round picks,” and both are expected to be gone before pick #20. You know who else was drafted around where we pick? Ty Lawson, Jrue Holiday, Rajon Rondo, Eric Bledsoe, and Jeff Teague, so the notion that we can’t find a solid back-up PG at pick #24 is incorrect. And if you read my post correctly, you saw that I used the word “would.” That word implies that this situation (drafting one of Larkin/Schroeder) is necessary in order for me to consider trading Felton to the Jazz for Paul Millsap.

    I do not want Felton gone unless we have a good enough situation at PG. Larkin/Schroeder and Prigioni is a good enough situation at PG.

  47. massive

    ephus: If the Knicks are paying the luxury tax for 2013-14, they cannot receive a newly signed free agent in a S&T.That is one of the changes for this season that was part of the 2011 CBA.So Millsap cannot come here unless the Knicks get under the Apron (including his salary).

    And this kills my dreams.

  48. ephus

    Donnie Walsh: How is it the Knick’s option? Kidd has guaranteed money due to him for the next two years. The Knicks have to pay that, unless they mutually come to terms on a buyout, right?

    No, if you retire, the team no longer has the obligation to pay you. If they choose to pay you, you stay on the salary cap.

    max fisher-cohen: I’m sure kidd and NY management has discussed this and perhaps NY has secretly promised a job as an assistant coach or something to cover the difference if they indeed decide not to pay Kidd.

    That would be collusion, which could cost the Knicks a first round pick and up to $6 million. I’m not saying they did not do it, I’m just saying it would be incredibly stupid.

    The CBA is extremely explicit about this. They have better lawyers than me thinking about this stuff all the time. Back of the envelope workarounds just will not cut it.

  49. Donnie Walsh

    max fisher-cohen: If a player chooses not to fulfill his contract by retiring, and the team “wants him to keep playing” they don’t have to pay him. http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q61

    Can you quote or highlight the line from the FAQ or from the CBA that pertains to the Knicks option to not pay Kidd his guaranteed money, because I am having a hard time finding it in either the link you posted or in the one Ephus posted earlier. Thanks.

  50. ephus

    Hubert:
    can the knicks arrange something whereby we pay guarantee Kidd’s salary this year in exchange for making his 3rd year nonguaranteed?

    Because if we did, we’d have a little over $7 million in nonguaranteed contracts for 2014-15 between Kidd and Camby, and that ain’t bad.

    Unfortunately, no. There are only limited circumstances where a team can renegotiate a signed contract, and they all depend on the team being under the salary cap (not just the luxury tax) before the renegotiation occurs.

  51. ephus

    From the CBA:

    Section 4. Determination of Team Salary.
    (a) Computation. For purposes of computing Team Salary under this Agreement, all
    of the following amounts shall be included:

    (1) Subject to the rules set forth in this Article VII (including, without
    limitation, the amnesty rules set forth in Section 12(f)(5) and 12(j) below), the aggregate Salaries
    of all active players (and former players to the extent provided by the terms of this Agreement)
    attributable to a particular Salary Cap Year, including, without limitation:

    (ii) Any amount called for in a retired player’s Player Contract paid or
    to be paid to the player. When a player retires and the Team continues to pay such amounts,
    then, for purposes of computing the player’s Salary for the then-current and any remaining
    Salary Cap Year covered by the Contract, the aggregate of such amounts, notwithstanding the
    payment schedule, shall be allocated pro rata over the then-current and each remaining Salary 157
    Cap Year on the basis of the remaining unearned protected Compensation in each such Salary
    Cap Year at the time of retirement.

  52. johnno

    massive: You know who else was drafted around where we pick? Ty Lawson, Jrue Holiday, Rajon Rondo, Eric Bledsoe, and Jeff Teague, so the notion that we can’t find a solid back-up PG at pick #24 is incorrect.

    I never said that you CAN’T’ find a solid backup PG at #24. The problem is that all draft picks are crap shoots, especially if you are picking in the 20′s. You might get Ronaldo Balkman or you might get Rajon Rondo one pick later (I’m still pissed about that one). You are very confident that the two guys you want are going to be immediate NBA contributors. They might be but, then again, they might not be. My recollection is that, when the Knicks picked Shumpert, there was serious disagreement in the Knicks’ war room over whether they should pick him or Chris Singleton and that D’Antoni made the final call. Good call. Singleton has turned out to be a complete stiff so far, but I’m sure that the Wizards thought that he was going to be a good player. You list a bunch of guys who turned out to be good late first round point guards. For that matter, Gilbert Arenas was a second round pick. That doesn’t mean that they all turn out well — Jonny Flynn was a lottery pick and you see how that turned out. Jimmer Fredette hasn’t exactly set the world on fire yet either. Remember, you are talking about a franchise that used lottery picks on Michael Sweetney, Channing Frye and Jordan Hill. And you know what other point guards were picked in the 20′s? Toney Douglas and Mardy Collins.

  53. SeeWhyDee77

    lol..Baron Davis hasn’t retired….yet. In all seriousness it seems our options at the point are pretty thin. Unfortunately the only real way of getting younger or better is by moving Melo or Chandler as a part of a larger package. We are pretty much married to this roster so we have to hope improvement comes from within. One thing’s for sure..I don’t wanna see Melo and Shump as the starting forwards. I never liked that lineup. Shump’s a 2 pure and simple. If Stat’s not right or healthy enough to consistently give something in the paint then we may be screwed in the frontcourt too. I’m definitely all in if we can bring Kmart back for a bench role. Where is Jorts? Can we bring him back? As far as the backcourt goes moving forward, the best hope may be drafting Bullock and seeing if JR’s little brother can give us something for a year.

  54. Brian Cronin

    lol..Baron Davis hasn’t retired….yet. In all seriousness it seems our options at the point are pretty thin. Unfortunately the only real way of getting younger or better is by moving Melo or Chandler as a part of a larger package. We are pretty much married to this roster so we have to hope improvement comes from within. One thing’s for sure..I don’t wanna see Melo and Shump as the starting forwards. I never liked that lineup. Shump’s a 2 pure and simple. If Stat’s not right or healthy enough to consistently give something in the paint then we may be screwed in the frontcourt too. I’m definitely all in if we can bring Kmart back for a bench role. Where is Jorts? Can we bring him back? As far as the backcourt goes moving forward, the best hope may be drafting Bullock and seeing if JR’s little brother can give us something for a year.

    I agree on Shump at the 3. Really, I think it affected the team more defensively than anything. For instance, two years ago Fields played at the 2 and he was out of place defensively and he was poor defensively. Then last year he played at the 3 and Shump played at the 2, both their natural defensive spots, and they were both really quite good defensively (and the team overall was really good defensively). So what do they do? They repeat the same “mistake” they made with Fields (quotes because in both instances, it was not because they were trying to do it, it was more a matter of having to make do with the specific roster issues they had) and play Shump out of place defensively and shockingly the defense suffered.

  55. SeeWhyDee77

    Brian Cronin: I agree on Shump at the 3. Really, I think it affected the team more defensively than anything. For instance, two years ago Fields played at the 2 and he was out of place defensively and he was poor defensively. Then last year he played at the 3 and Shump played at the 2, both their natural defensive spots, and they were both really quite good defensively (and the team overall was really good defensively). So what do they do? They repeat the same “mistake” they made with Fields (quotes because in both instances, it was not because they were trying to do it, it was more a matter of having to make do with the specific roster issues they had) and play Shump out of place defensively and shockingly the defense suffered.

    Amen. I think shump’s a rarity. Someone who excels on defense or can excel on defense but is a jump shot away from being a very good 2 way player. Most guys with a defensive focus don’t have his ball handling, passing, or ability to create off the dribble.

  56. Clyde_10

    Will somebody tell me why as Knick fans we don’t spend more time talking about making moves that will make us younger, more atlethic,and better defensively …down the road? Right now we are acting like we’re a draft choice(24 at that!) and a few MLE players away from challenging for a title. Well Fellow Travellers I’m here to tell you that ain’t how it is! Just look at our conference Chicago and Indiana are bigger,more talented and (worse of all) Younger than we are. They have their draft picks so they’ll keep improving. Brooklyn’s roster is actually pretty good and if they ever get their heads right we’ll be looking up at them also. This Knick team needs to be rebuilt around Melo and it needs to start now. Poster Brian Cronin is one of a few others I’ve seen that are willing to talk about moving Tyson Chandler. This could be a start. Grunwald needs to call Cleveland and see if they would be willing to trade Varejo,CJ Miles, and the 19th pick for Chandler. For us we’d get a rebounding center who plays passable defense and can score and a big (6’6″) guard who is fearless and is having trouble getting off the Cavs bench. The Cavs would get an outstanding leader and defensive player who could run the pick and roll with Kyrie and school the up and coming Thompsom and Ellington. then we could use the picks to get younger and sign another center with the MLE . IMHO this is at least a beginning. Something bold must be done or Melo will wind up like Patrick and Bernard or maybe he opts out and goes ring chasing.

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