7/5/2010 Comment Spillover

Just starting a new topic because it seems the last one is getting kinda long. It’s possible that one of the major free agents makes some news today that would be relevant to the site. Considering the holiday comes after a long weekend, today is shaping up to be a slow news day so making a signing might garner some extra media. Additionally it could even be Amar’e confirming he’s signing with the Knicks, since he was reported to have been in New York this weekend.

On the other hand there may not be any news for another day (or possibly two) so it seems like a good time to allow for a new comment thread.


Liked it? Take a second to support Mike Kurylo on Patreon!

Mike Kurylo

Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

66 thoughts to “7/5/2010 Comment Spillover”

  1. I have to say that although I knew this free agent period was coming, of course, I never quite imagined what a strange, unsettling process it would be. Has there ever been anything like this before in any sport, where a handful of players and executives held the fates of several franchises in their hands, where one deal of the cards would forever alter the history of the league? Sure, the draft often does this, but only in hindsight, and only with one or two teams.

    A few teams will be very happy this week, but some may be completely shut out. How strange to think that a PowerPoint presentation or someone’s handshake might make a difference.

    Part of me is hoping that Kobe or Durant or a rejuvenated Allen Iverson (okay, kidding) rules the league for the next few years. I am tired, tired, tired of watching a parade of non-champions (Wade’s Shaq title aside) act like they can guarantee championships for the teams that please them most.

    The other part of me is hoping for the LBJ-Stoudemire Knicks to win 6 rings and pose for solid gold statues to be placed outside of MSG.

  2. If twolves are intrested in lee, and lee wants to go there… I would think kahn would give rubio for a allstar in lee right? This would be best case scenerio as rubio would not count against cap untill 2011. Would he trade rubio???

  3. Kikuchiyo,

    Phil Hughes is 10-2 as a starter this season, but only has a 3.83 ERA, which is only 6% over league average this year. If Hughes happens to get, as he has, 9 runs a game in support from his star-studded team, some idiot sportswriter might give him some votes for the Cy Young award, overlooking some dominant starter on a team whose hitters couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn.

    This distortion doesn’t make Hughes a good player– it makes him lucky. The simple reality is that some players get really lucky and some don’t. Kobe played with a top 3 center of the modern era in Shaq, then floundered in the playoffs (or out of it) with Kwame Brown, then back to 3 consecutive finals with twin 7-footers who are both all-NBA caliber. If anything, I’m tired of overrated superstars like Kobe letting the media believe that he was the single determining factor in the Lakers’ championship while far superior players like LeBron are doomed to support his supporting players like Mo Williams, Daniel Gibson, and two ancient centers. LeBron takes Kobe’s place on the Lakers, and you’re looking at a 70-win team, even if Derek Fisher’s reanimated corpse happens to be standing on the hardwood at tip-off.

    (Durant is an anomaly if there ever was one, and he, like LeBron and Wade, deserves most of the credit for his team’s success.)

    tl;dr– If I have to sit through another several years of Kobe being masturbated by the media that once tried to crucify him for his allegedly felonious conduct, I will switch to hockey.

  4. Jowles, you’re right. My premise ought to be that teams win championships and that the free agent bonanza, though undoubtedly part of team-making, will not, in itself, make champions. The league markets individuals, but the game is just as much about team-building.

    Still, I give Kobe more credit than you do. (Why, for example, does no one remember that Duncan, too, missed 17 shots in Game 7 of 2005?) Nonetheless, I should probably say that I’d like to see some comeuppance for the free agents (and, yes, some non-free agents) who act like lords of the universe.

    Unless, as I said, they’re on MY team. It is all part of the dialectics of fandom.

  5. Can we sign and trade David Lee to Indiana? I’m not sure we’d want anything out of them, but I’m thinking we can get an unprotected pick from them and possibly end up with Brandon Knight or Kyrie Irving.

  6. @Cock Jowles

    saber stat nerd interjection/baseball thread hijack: Phil Hughes’ win-loss record owes a lot to having the Yankees’ lineup behind him. He’s also cooling off from his hot start to the season. However, he hasn’t been lucky. In fact, at this point, he’s regressed exactly to his career true talent level as the league figures him out and he learns in turn to adjust. His ERA is 3.83, but his FIP is 3.75 and his BABIP is only six points lower than his career average.

    He may be “lucky” to be 10-2, but wins and losses are completely worthless as a measure of a pitcher’s performance anyway.

    Two things that I think may skew those numbers: his role last season as a setup man, and the fact that this is his first full season as a starter. Regardless, although he won’t maintain his insane early season numbers, Phil Hughes is the real deal. He just needs to have more confidence in his changeup.

  7. Ellis is hands down the worst option for dantonis offense. A shootfirst , undersized ballstopper. And he’s not cheap. I don’t even like him as a last option. Would rather save his salary and go for parker /melo next year then watch this crawford sequel run our offense.

  8. I didn’t mean that he was lucky in the sense of BABIP, but rather with which organization he landed as a player– on a team with an OPS+ of 116 (last year, I believe they ended up atop the league at 117, with the runner-up being at 107 or so; that’s an absurd gap).

    What that means is that Hughes gets more exposure on the caters-to-mouth-breathers network known as ESPN, as well as backward-thinking sportswriters and front office personnel. The general populace cares about wins and losses, and ultimately determine the course of a player’s career earnings:


    Who deserved the Cy Young that year? (You can also examine the AL Cy Young vote from the same year with the same results.) Also, you can bet that win totals of teams had something to do with the outcome of an individual award vote:

    2005 STL 100-62, 1st in NL Central
    HOU 89-73, 2nd in NL Central

    I’m not really concerned with Chris Carpenter, Roger Clemens, or Phil Hughes (at least in this thread), but rather the cultural phenomenon that leads teams like the 2001-2009 Knicks to be mired in the bowels of fandom hell. We see players who perform well on winning teams being rewarded accolades for winning, and not for individual accomplishments. In free agency, that is a terrible, franchise-crushing practice. When a player like Kobe Bryant, who is a great basketball player, plays alongside a player like 2000-2003 Shaq and wins a lot of basketball games, he’s elevated to the status of an “all-time greatest” player, which isn’t where he should be. He’s not Michael Jordan, nor Magic Johnson, nor LeBron James, nor Chris Paul. The numbers support this; the narratives do not. Joe Johnson is going to rape the Hawks for the next six years, and I hope their fans are ready for it when they don’t have the cap space to sign a player to compliment their best players: Al Horford and Josh Smith.

  9. I can compliment Atlanta’s best players. They look very nice in designer suits.

    But I cannot complement them. I am old and slow.

  10. Yes, you see: I was speaking about the desire to sign Malik Rose. Remember, the Knicks did pay him $20M to provide moral support to the other players on the bench.

  11. If we’re going to bring in Monta Ellis we might as well get on the phone with Memphis and see what it would take to bring Zach Randolph back, plug Eddy Curry in as starting center and give Stephon Marbury another chance.

    Monta Ellis is a textbook Isiah Thomas player.

  12. Question, do we really have that Jerome Jordan kid? Hes not on our summer league roster…

    How about S&T David Lee to Minny for Rubio and Hollins.

  13. How about a 3-way:
    Lee to the Wolves
    Jefferson and Rubio to the Spurs
    Parker and Blair to the Knicks

  14. Watching Lance Stephenson play for the Pacers Summer league team. Looks really good.

    I know here’s there’s a pretty long list of Summer League Superstars who haven’t exactly exploded in the NBA – Marco Bellinelli, Nate Robinson, Nikoloz Tsikitishvili, Anthony Randolph, etc. But still…

  15. I think they should hold off on Lee until they see what lebron is doing and then at that point they should see what it would take to get Melo. Is Lee/chandler for Melo remotely possible? Do you think they would have any interest in that?

  16. No, I don’t believe that they would (it’s a fair enough offer, though, I think – Lee is quite good).

  17. So, I was reading a Ric Bucher tweet and it made me think, wow, what if it all does go down the way he says it looks like it will go down?

    Wade and Bosh in Miami, Lebron in Cleveland, Boozer in Chicago and Amar’e in New York.

    I think if Lebron never leaves Cleveland, can you even really blame the Knicks for not getting him? If he goes to, say, Chicago, that’d be one thing – but not leaving at all?

    That’s my first thought – my second is, “Wow, so basically the NBA landscape would barely change?”

    My third is “Man, Ric Bucher really doesn’t like David Lee” (not even mentioning him in the above scenario).

    Oh, and an unrelated thought – David Lee for Monta Ellis is an absolute waste of David Lee’s contract. You’d be better off just keeping Lee if you’re going to turn him into Monta freakin’ Ellis. I guess at least Knick games would be exciting!

  18. Call it childish but my desire for LeBron to be a knick goes beyond basketball now. IF LeBron does sign on the dotted line with the Knicks i demand that Chris Broussard is sat in front of a camera to prove somehow, that all is not as it seems and that the Bulls have a sign and trade deal worked out so that THEY end up with Lebron and Amar’e and we receive a dryer, pippens old briefs and Kurt Hinrich.
    In the video implanted in the page he goes out of his way to exclude the Knicks from the running and then states that that there is no way tht the Knicks would make an offer to Amar’e of that magnitude had it not been vetoed by LeBron. Moronic.

  19. That’s odd, Broussard just tweeted a few hours ago:

    NYK’s plan to have Amare and next yr Carmelo has intrigued LeBron. Not saying NYK is frontrunner (they’re not) but they’re gaining ground

    That sounds about a gazillion times more hopeful than most ESPN guys (save Sheridan, whose job, it appears, is to be hopeful for the Knicks).

    Also, if Lebron believes the Knicks can land Carmelo in 2011, well, I worry about his intelligence. The Knicks would have to dump Gallo and not spend a dime on anything else to get the room to add Carmelo. Possible? I guess. Likely? Hell no, especially as it would mean punting 2010-11 (not signing any new players to go over the cap to preserve the cap room for Melo).

  20. If the Knicks get Amar’e what other option does LeBron have?

    With just LeBron the Bulls are not as good as LeBron/amar’e and our core. IMO

    Do you really want to be the guy who couldn’t win and went to miami? wade might not even want to be that guy.


    Shooters aplenty, defense wouldn’t be stellar but they could blow teams away and they could play seriously tall ball.


    Tough Lineup to guard

  21. “[Broussard] goes out of his way to exclude the Knicks from the running”

    I just heard Broussard on the radio saying exactly what Brian quotes. He admitted his best guesses change daily and that no one really knows what is going to happen. (He then said what his current “best guess” was, and it happened to be exactly the scenario of Bucher’s that Brian outlined above…)

  22. Looking at Monta Ellis, he certainly doesnt pass much BUT he is alot more efficient than I thought. His TS% for his career is just under 54% and his eFG% is just below 50%. A couple of years ago his TS% was 58%!! Problem is his last 2 seasons he has turned into an absolute ball-hog and chucker. If he plays at his 2007-2008 level he could actually be a bargain at his 11 million per year price tag but I wouldnt hold my breath obviously.

  23. I definitely agree that best chance for LeBron to come to the Knicks is for Wade/Bosh to go to Chicago. LeBron staying in Cleveland then would be a non-story and in some ways LeBron becomes irrelevant next season. Hopefully LeBron takes to heart what KG said about how his loyalty to Minnesota backfired on him and LeBron doesnt make the same mistake and goes to NY.

  24. BTW I read the above in an article today, forgot from where. Must admit LeBron staying in Cleveland is basically a non-story and wont do anything at all to help LeBron and his brand.

  25. I agree w/the above. No desire for Monta Ellis, who’s at best, a slightly more efficient, shorter version of Jamal Crawford.

    Now, Lee for Biedrins and Anthony Randolph? That’d be worth pursuing.

  26. David Lee and Wilson Chandler could be enough for Carmelo Anthony. On ESPN, they’re saying Denver won’t get any value for Carmelo Anthony because he has one year left and no team wants to risk much for him. I think David Lee and Wilson Chandler is a win-win situation because Denver gets two starters (David Lee and Nene can do some damage together, and Afflalo/Billups/Chandler could lock down the perimeter), we get out of Chandler’s pay day next season, David Lee is out of the conference, and we get a top 5 player in the NBA.

  27. Or even better, Lee to Minny for Ricky Rubio and Martell Webster (plus whatever spare parts it takes to make the #’s work).

  28. “Or even better, Lee to Minny for Ricky Rubio and Martell Webster”

    Rubio may be better at some point down the road than Anthony, but if there is a Lee deal on the table from both Denver and Minnesota, Walsh would be crucified if he took the latter.

  29. Maybe I’m in the minority, but I’m not a huge Melo fan. I’d rather have Rubio

  30. Rather, I think if you’re trading for Melo, Denver’s going to demand Gallo, not Chandler. And I’d rather have a Rubio/Gallo/Stat big three going forward than just Melo & Stat

  31. You may be right. But from a media/run-of-the-mill fan perspective, Walsh would be tarred and feathered if he took Rubio over Carmelo.

    ps– Hahn reporting Amare deal is done as of 3 minutes ago.

  32. Taggart. I’m with you. Broussard’s latest Twitter post, “NYK’s plan to have Amare and next yr Carmelo has intrigued LeBron. Not saying NYK is frontrunner (they’re not) but they’re gaining ground” is an improvement.

    I, on the other hand, think we’re looking good; the Knicks have D’Antoni, they’ll prob. sign a still young Ama’re who has been the biggest producer on the best 7SOL teams, they have a big expiring contract, a potential star/sharpshooter in Gallo, competent role players in Chandler and Douglas. Remember we have our 1st rd. draft pick next year, it will just be swapped w/ Houston’s if the Rockets have the better record. I’d feel very good about how far I could take this team as is, if I were LeBron, and about its abilities to add more talent.

    I don’t think the Cavs can realistically assume they’ll be much better than last year (I’d worry about their ability to beat the Magic, Lakers, even the Celtics again). Re: the Bulls, this Rose and Noah talk has to be toned down. Both are wonderful players but are certainly not the ones you dream of playing with if you’re LeBron. They won’t get Bosh for $14 million. Maybe Lee or Boozer? Noah-Lee/Boozer-Deng-LeBron-Rose is a VERY nice team but it doesn’t give me an erection the way it seems to give ESPN analysts (I remember Aldridge saying he could play the 3 for the Lakers team w/ Malone and Payton and they would win it all. And then they lost in the Finals). The Heat could offer the best outlook PROVIDED THAT Bosh and LeBron both agree to pay cuts. Maybe James should just take the Lakers’ MLE…. btw, WE can also offer the Cavs if they unclench their fists, Lee and a trade exception in exchange for the King. In other words, “shut up, Broussard.”

  33. The problem I see if we don’t get Lebron is, who is our lead ball handler? Don’t get me wrong I love Douglas, I just don’t think he can run the floor as the main ball handler. I just don’t know what other 1’s or 2’s or even 3’s left out there would fit the offense, effectively run the p&r with Amare and/or Lee, and hopefully be able to shoot the 3 ball… It doesn’t sound like CP3 is being traded. Who else like that would be on the wish list?

  34. Sorry, that grammar was ridiculous. I’ve been out in the sun all day and I’m late for dinner…

  35. @35,

    If Melo wants to leave, they are in no position to demand anything. They can only demand Gallo if another team is offering a better deal like New Orleans or New Jersey, which probably won’t happen (David Lee is better than both David West and Devin Harris). Chandler/Lee is probably the most they can realistically get.

  36. Denver still insisting they’re not trading Melo. Of course, what else are they gonna say? “Sure! We’ll trade you our best player for 50 cents on the dollar! And feel free to kick my dog while you’re in town!”

  37. I know this really has nothing to do with LeBrons decision although i would definately made this my pitch:-

    When you look at the really great teams, sportsman through the years who do we really remember as GREAT? The 2000 era Pistons with there lockdown D or the showtime Lakers? Italy for all their 1-0 victories or Spain for their ability to move a ball around a football pitch as though it is bewitched. Seve Ballesteros or Faldo. I know very little of NFL or baseball to give comparisons but you get the pictures

    I am english and live in the states. Charlotte to be precise. I try to equate basketball teams to football teams to those back home who will care. Everyone back home will go all doughy eyed over the Championship winning Arsenal side or Barcelona but rarely mention Chelsea or AC Milan who were at times prolific and efficient but not GREAT.

    Under D’Antoni’s tutelage the Knicks with the addition of LBJ/ Amar’e could be Spain, Arsenal, Barcelona, Ballesteros and the Lakers over night. If that team won just one championship putting up the numbers they would be capable of they would be remembered for a longtime. D’Antoni for all his failings promotes a style of basketball we all grew up wanting to play and he lives and dies by that sword. Many of those great sporting institutions did the same thing and thats why LeBron needs to be there with D’antoni when his new New York Knicks put up 140 on opening night.

  38. Sorry i got carried away and the grammer is HORRENDOUS!

    you get the pictures???

  39. I have mostly been an observer the last few weeks and it is funny to hear how our community knows more about the stats, the CBA and the Knicks than those whose job it is to cover the NBA nationally (I think some local guys do a good job). Anyway it has been good reading on this site.

    Question: The knock on the proposed idea of doing a trade for Carmelo from the national media (I just heard Broussard say this on ESPN) is that he would be leaving $ on the table if he turns down Denver’s 3yr/$65M offer. Couldn’t the Knicks (or any team that trades for Carmelo) offer the same extension as soon as he becomes a Knick? Also can’t they offer more than 3 years if they want?

    PS: I believe that the Amare signing was a good aggressive move for an excellent player and puts us in a good spot to get LeBron or Wade (if Bosh goes elsewhere).

  40. ESPN is also reporting that Amare has agreed to join the Knicks.

    @28: “I definitely agree that best chance for LeBron to come to the Knicks is for Wade/Bosh to go to Chicago.”

    BBA – I think the Knicks best chance, especially if the Amare report is true, is if Houston is able to S&T for Bosh. I don’t see LeBron and Wade both going to Chicago. LeBron needs to be paired up with a top-tier big and if Bosh is taken off the table by Houston and Amare is heading to NY, I’d be very optimistic with the Knicks’ chances.

  41. I don’t think Bosh going to Houston matters too much, Boozer would still be out there. Wade going to Chicago is the key, we all need to pray for that.

  42. As much fun as it would be for a CHI-NY rivalry again, I can’t bring myself to pray for the Bulls to land Wade. Maybe, maybe, maybe if it GUARANTEED LeBron come to NY, and even then, still probably not. Wade in Chicago could win more titles than LeBron in NY.

    I know I’m a child to hate the Bulls more than I love the Knicks, but 1993 still stings. And to involve God in helping the Bulls would really be selling my atheist soul…

  43. Well, since it seems like Amare is indeed going to be a Knick, I’d better start learning to accept it. With time, and some results on the court, I’m sure I’ll warm up to him, but it’ll be hard to do that until I see who else the Knicks can get to pair with him, since even he wouldn’t be able to help a team as gutted as we are right now very much.

  44. Amar’e is a stud, the Garden is going to go nuts over his game. Hopefully he will be inspired by the DEE-FENSE chants.

    I am probably more intrigued by Monta than most, but only as a PG and only if we can’t get LeBron, Melo, CP3, Rubio, Collison. At age 24, his speed, jumper and penetrating ability might make him a stud with the right coach. Nellie jumped the shark 20 years ago (I never liked him) and GS is an odd team, so who knows how good he really is? He did average lots of steals last year, so maybe he is not a total loss on D.

    I am not a fan of Mike Miller at all. Unless we deal Gallo, a waste of $.

    However, under no circumstances would I trade Gallo for anything less than LeBron or Wade. (Durant and CP3 aren’t even worth talking about yet, they ain’t coming.) The guy is too young, talented and inexpensive to get back sufficient value. Melo is not enough.

  45. The contract is annonced on NBA.COM but not ESPN?????
    Bias or just lousy reporting??
    League would not put it on their website if it were not true surely…
    As much as i like this move you have to wonder why LeBron didn’t notice he had a cheaper version of Amar’e waiting for him in NY. Still i will take Amar’e at the max ahead of Johnson. At least he performed in this years playoffs.

  46. Even if you dont like the signing, it is nice to see the Knicks relevant again and making some big news in a positive way.

  47. A smart move to lock him up early in the process. Should LeBron go elsewhere (and he now has one additional massive reason to come to NY), the Knicks have tons of possibilities and a person to build around.

    Admit it, the potential ‘Plan B’ of a frontcourt consisting of Gallo, Lee and Stoudemire should have Knicks fans buzzing, point guard be damned.*

    Knicks are back! Yee-haw!

    *sign Ridenour, or Fischer, the money should be there if LeBron doesn’t come.

  48. #52: “As much as i like this move you have to wonder why LeBron didn’t notice he had a cheaper version of Amar’e waiting for him in NY.”


    Because Lebron is not a GM. He is a great player but not a GM. And Walsh, the GM, sold out the better player in Lee for the more popular player.

  49. @52″ The contract is annonced on NBA.COM but not ESPN?????
    Bias or just lousy reporting??”

    I don’t understand it. It’s the second article on the side bar and when you click on the [“Knicks and Ama’re agree on a deal” link] it brings you to an article whose headline is:

    “Sources: Amare deal OK with LeBron”

  50. Well i am off work hence constant refreshing and nba.com were first. Just getting paranoid over this whole anti knick thing.

    Totally with you. I understand entirely why all parties involved did the deal. I think it was a great move for the Knicks. It was aggressive and we are now in a much stronger position. Does make it hard for us to offer Lee much less than the max though. Good for the team marketing wise and from a recruiting stand point.

  51. Pass on Felton, if we really want a pass first point guard with a suspect jumper, why not resign Sergio or trade for Sessions. I’m sure minnisota would let us have sessions for almost nothing since his contract is long. Both those players would be half or less of what Felton will get. No Felton, I don’t like the thought of a 52% TS% as the “breakout year”.

  52. Hm. Not sure about that. He had a WS/48 of 0.172 last year and is only 26 this season. He was ill-suited for a walk-it-up Larry Brown offense in Charlotte. He’s fast and a plus defender.

    I’m warming, is what I’m saying

  53. “Also, if Lebron believes the Knicks can land Carmelo in 2011, well, I worry about his intelligence. The Knicks would have to dump Gallo and not spend a dime on anything else to get the room to add Carmelo. Possible? I guess. Likely? Hell no, especially as it would mean punting 2010-11 (not signing any new players to go over the cap to preserve the cap room for Melo).”

    I doubt that it’s unlikely. I would think if a deal is on the table for Melo, and the only thing standing in his way is Gallo… (I’m not saying I would definitely do it, but I think the front office would).

    New York could potentially dump Gallo to another team under the cap for a future pick. They don’t have to lose him outright. Perhaps even use Gallo in a sign & trade with Denver.

  54. The only person the Knicks have under contract in 2011 is Amar’e. Gallo, Chandler, Douglas, and Walker all have team options.

    If they pick up all four options, they’ll have $9.35 mil committed. Add in Amar’e’s raise (he’ll probably make $18.5 mil next year) and the total becomes $27.93. Add in LeBron’s 2011 max contract of $17.9 mil and the total becomes $45.86. Add to that the roster holds of all the minimum contracts: Fields, Rautins, Jordan, etc… and you have another $3 mil on the books. ($49 mil).

    So to make room for a “third max” next summer, the Knicks would have to dump Gallo, Chandler, etc…, to free up about $9 million.

    Of course, now that I’ve done all the math, I realize it will all be moot because there will be a new CBA. Oh well. I’m going to “submit comment” anyway…

  55. I doubt that it’s unlikely. I would think if a deal is on the table for Melo, and the only thing standing in his way is Gallo… (I’m not saying I would definitely do it, but I think the front office would).

    New York could potentially dump Gallo to another team under the cap for a future pick. They don’t have to lose him outright. Perhaps even use Gallo in a sign & trade with Denver.

    But it wouldn’t just be trading Gallo – it’d be trading Gallo and not adding salary this season, which seems unlikely, right?

    Now, if it is trading Gallo now for ‘Melo, then yeah, I can see that, I suppose.

Comments are closed.