301 thoughts to “2019-20 Game Thread: Knicks vs. All The Awesome Young Players Who Should Be Knicks”

  1. i’ve watched so much memphis this year it’s weird to watch us play. like your camp friends meeting your school friends.

  2. I mean, DRed for GM, but I think we all called that. Isn’t it the only thing we all agree on?

    Knox looks like he is trying to hurt the rim with these jumpers but that was a nice drive.

    It’s setting up nicely to be the Dillon Brooks game.

  3. Like you see that spin Mitch just did for the dunk that didn’t count? He could do that sometimes if you throw him the ball in the post

  4. I literally have no idea what DSJr is doing out there. It’s like the Knicks grabbed some random dude out of the stands and asked him to play PG.

  5. great block by mitch and then he tried to do too much. The Grizzlies are like a jowles dream squad-I forgot they had slo-mo too.

  6. @25 Breen and Clyde were speculating that the Knicks are showcasing DSJr for a trade. Clearly everything’s going according to plan.

    @28 Based on the highlight videos I watched leading up to the 2018 draft, hitting awkward floaters is Knox’s best skill.

  7. Breen also said that there were a # of teams inquiring about Smith’s availability. Sounds like some BS fed to him by Pills.

  8. if we truly loved mitch we would just give him to memphis

    Sting would agree.

    One day Mitch will have someone who can throw him alley-oops. Like Ja. Or Luka.

  9. Ja is playing exactly like DSJ.
    He’s just more lucky.

    (We posters must help DSJ trade value too)

  10. I just hope a Morris trade with the Bucks for the Pacers’ 1st and DJ Wilson is all set and ready, and they’re just waiting til the last minute to confirm it.

    But sadly, they’re more likely to trade him for Kuzma and filler instead.

  11. hand it to morris he is one of the only guys left willing to heave it and he actually is gonna get paid in part on his 3p%

  12. Was it Jowles who wanted to trade down in the last draft and nab Clarke?

    Wish they had a redo on that one.

  13. Jowles was definitely all in on Clarke but there was a bunch of people that wanted to trade down after we fell out of the top 2.

  14. would you trade rj for clarke even with everything you know now?

    Yeah, I would. And I preferred Clarke on draft day quite a bit. You could make the argument for RJ’s ceiling being higher (I didn’t, the guy can’t shoot) but Clarke had a very very high floor.

  15. would you trade rj for clarke even with everything you know now?

    Probably. Clarke will likely give better value for his rookie deal. I think Barrett has a chance at being a solid pro but I don’t see a sky-high ceiling or anything. Also don’t trust Knicks player development, give me the guy who’s already productive.

  16. That was pretty dumb of Morris, even if he didn’t touch it. I hope losing this challenge doesn’t come back to haunt us. ;-)

    Get Mitch, Frank, and Trier in there.

  17. it is so weird that frank played in crunch time yesterday and then isn’t playing again.

    randle is quite understandably a mess out there and isn’t playing defense. we should let him sit out the second half.

  18. Why would Clarke backup Mitch? He’s a four.

    They probably play together with the two’s in my hypothetical. Clarke’s a better 3pt shooter than Randle, he would probably be a better fit w/ Mitch.

  19. Yeah, Mitch and Clarke would pair fine. Better than Mitch pairs with anyone else on this effing team.

    Listen to the crowd. Put Frank in.

  20. so you’re playing clarke ahead of mitch or behind him or together?

    Who cares? I’ve said this year after year about this team but the Knicks are so talent-poor that we can’t afford to turn down (young) talent at any position regardless of how they fit with other players.

    Has any team in NBA history been as bad in any quarter as the Knicks are in the 3rd every year? It’s truly amazing.

  21. I wanted to trade down with the Cavs and get Culver and then Clarke at 26, although we’d have needed to trade up to 20 to actually get him. C’est la vie.

  22. the point is that clarke is a worse version of mitch… he’s a dive man… and there’s a lot of guys like that….

    he’s a solid guy but he’s limited… and things start looking a lot different once some of his shooting splits come down….

    75% at the rim… 50+% 3-10 ft… 50+% 10-16 and 44% 16 to 3…. ad 40% at 3…

    it may not crater… but that’s not going to continue… and when it doesn’t what are you really left with? clarke was supposed to be some defensive dynamo…. that’s obv not happening….

  23. Lord, that dunk by Clarke.

    Clarke is a much different player. He’s a slasher and much more of a transition force. He moves much better off the ball.

  24. @64 nba.com/stats is horrifically bad to navigate but there’s a lot of cool info if you know how to find it. On there, Mitch is 174/242 for the season from the field and he’s 59/69 on alley-oops. So, 28% of his total FGA and 33% of his makes are alley-oops. I can’t find how that compares to other players.

  25. the collective basketball IQ of this squad is real, real, real …low…

    Does anybody miss more easy layups than Randle?

  26. Clarke is a good dive man but he also shoots the ball-he even takes 3s. He takes about half his shots at the rim and Mitch takes basically all his shots at the rim.

  27. A week till trade deadline. Our two shmucks will do what they do best. NOTHING.

    You really have to be special not to be able to get a 2nd for Morris.

    No permanent coach hired; no trades. Not even a g-league signing – Just keep losing while playing veterans

  28. It’s funny how all our power forwards STILL suck even after signing all the available ones in the league.

    Have they ever run out a Payton/Frank/Dotson/Taj/Mitch lineup? That’s the new hill I’m dying on.

  29. I’ve gotta think Frank is sitting because they want to trade the other guys. That or rest his groin while showcasing Dennis (otherwise sit Elf???).

    Clarke is a dive man. But at a 20% USG and .677 TS% who cares.

  30. Frank is probably part of a pending trade. I don’t buy the showcasing theories. No one is making decisions based on how somebody plays in their most recent game. That’s just kinda silly

  31. “If you love someone set them free” definitely applies to Frank too.

    This teams is such a pile of horseshit it’s unbelievable.

    It’s been one of the best defensive efforts I can remember from Mitch at least.

  32. Maybe a suspension for Payton?

    I disagree with Breen about Crowder going for the steal. Why shouldn’t he? Now, I’d agree that he shouldn’t take the three.

  33. Wouldn’t necessarily call that a cheapshot. Who the hell were those guys jumping all over Randle? He wasn’t even doing anything.

  34. There was a classic NBA fake tough guy dust-up. And Payton did some classic MLB style enforcement of the unwritten rules.

  35. Gotta agree with Clyde: if you don’t like it, play ball. No excuse pushing someone on a shot attempt

  36. Lol, sounds like the most excitement you can get at a Knicks game

    Usually doesn’t take multiple games to finish the trade, no? Also, why play Frank at all last night?

    Mitch showed up defensively in the part of last night’s game I watched too

  37. apparently dolan left his seat while the crowd was chanting sell the team. I wonder when he’ll figure out Mills isn’t the answer.

  38. that’s awesome they were chanting sell the team…that douche should be harassed every damn home game…

  39. The NBA’s gotta suspend Payton, right? “Defenseless” player taking a jump shot, and he tries to shove him into the first row, with both hands/arms.

    Got no problem with Crowder going for a steal with less than a minute left in a blowout, esp. with the Knicks mostly standing around. However, why run over to the corner and shoot the three? Just run 20 seconds off the clock.

  40. The NBA’s gotta suspend Payton, right? “Defenseless” player taking a jump shot, and he tries to shove him into the first row, with both hands/arms.

    Well at least Frank has to play over Allen, right?

  41. Holy shit! The crowd was chanting “Sell the team!”? Can’t believe I missed it. Going to have to find video.

  42. SELL THE TEAM!

    SELL THE TEAM!

    SELL THE TEAM!

    OR AT LEAST FIRE MILLS AND PERRY!

    OR AT LEAST FIRE MILLS AND PERRY!

    OR AT LEAST FIRE MILLS AND PERRY!

  43. you know the daily news is gonna go with the sell the team headlines tomorrow. knicks blown out, players getting ejected, and msg has to pump out hype music to drown out the chants. best moment of the season.

  44. Frank needs a groin transplant.

    Seriously, one of my brothers has had groin/hernia issues most of his adult life. Not fun.

  45. Headline ideas…

    A simple “Sell the team, Sell the team, Sell the team”?

    “Dolan Can’t Face the Music”?

    “Not So Sweet Music”?

    “The Hills Are Alive With The Sound of ‘Sell the Team!'”?

  46. “He’s got a lot of female tendencies on the court, flopping and throwing his head back…he’s soft, very woman-like”

    – Marcus Morris on Jae Crowder

  47. You have to give some allowances to Morris, though. He is from a different time. He was born in…{checks}…1989.

    Oh…never mind. Fuck that guy.

  48. well…at a minimum…hopefully that will negate any long term deal for morris…assuming his trade value just plummeted…

  49. IMO the Frank groin story for “tonight” was almost certainly bullshit in light of the fact he didn’t play last night either. If he was hurt and out, it’s very likely it would have been reported. Injuries and late scratches like that are almost always reported for sports gambling and related issues. Also, when Miller gave his response he didn’t just give the answer, he smirked first, because he knew that anyone with a functioning brain was going to ask that question given it was obvious they needed his defense tonight.

    IMO, playing DSJr last night and tonight came from Mills and Perry.

    I’m not sure if it’s to save face for the garbage they got back for KP or because they want to trade him, but it better be the latter or if I was FRank I would demand a trade.

    They got and played Burke, Mudiay, Payton, and DSJr over him. That’s not even a hall of fame of backups. He is 21 and needs development minutes. No matter what your own opinion of Frank is, if you are Frank they are screaming they don’t value you. Go into the office, call them incompetent assholes ((which they are anyway), tell them to go FVCK themselves and demand a trade. Man up! It’s time to man up, demand a trade, and find an organization that wants you.

  50. Those quotes by Morris are not going to change his trade value. He’ll get called out for it, but there are probably still 10 teams that want him. Players have said way worse things than that. This is the kind of dumb stuff I was warning about him at the beginning of the season that he mostly avoided, but it finally came out.

  51. The NBA has the mamba mentality, so it’s not like Marcus is the only idiot who is going to say shit like that. Just most guys are going to be smarter about saying it to reporters on the record. Didn’t Marcus and his brother get into trouble with the law for beating up a guy who was texting their mom?

  52. Which Seagal movie is playing vets, getting blown out, picking up techs, starting fights with a minute left, and then Morris making misogynist comments?

  53. the payton shove was pretty funny. The way he shoved him it’s not like crowder was likely to get hurt and Crowder probably has 40lbs on him so Elfrid is putting himself at risk of injury as well. I hope they suspend him for a game or two so we can roll Frank back out.

  54. i was totally fine with the payton shove and crowder has always been a fake tough guy instigator. the knox and dsj mid air back shoves during the game were a fuck of a lot more dangerous and uncalled for than what payton did. the hero of the whole incident is the knicks security guy who ran a 4.2 forty to arrive just in time to prevent julius randle from getting an 80 game suspension for ko’ing taylor jenkins.

  55. Well, that’s Morris, he was always an idiot anyway. That’s not big surprise. It obviously pains me that a player would use such language, specially when his damn teammate, Reggie Bullock, had a trans sister who was brutally murdered and has been vocal about gender related inequality, but I guess not much can be expected out of an idiot like Morris. I wanted him gone from the minute he was signed and the sentiment remains the same.

  56. That Morris comment just drew the line for me. Get his ass out of here.

    BTW if that’s the veteran leadership he’s paid for, just make those guys play Custer’s Revenge 20mins a day and they’re set.

  57. I love that we root for a team where we’re happy when FA signings are in
    foul trouble or might be suspended, so that we can see more of the guys who actually should be playing…

  58. I think I would have given up on this team during Phil’s illustrious regime if not for this blog, which is absurdly entertaining/informative for a random Knicks blog I stumbled across in 2010 or so. Cheers to all of you for keeping me emotionally invested in this terrible team managed by morons and owned by the richest bad blues singer in the world. (But sincerely, you all are great.)

  59. the collective basketball IQ of this squad is real, real, real …low…

    sadly our vet leaders are some of the dumbest players on the court…

    I’m trying hard, but, getting really tired of randall and morris doing dumb thing after dumb thing…

  60. Holy shit! The crowd was chanting “Sell the team!”? Can’t believe I missed it. Going to have to find video.

    Wait, the msg fans have only just realized that they think Dolan should sell the team?? I haven’t watched a game in many years now, but I kind of assumed they chanted this during every loss, no? (I mean, we used to chant “fire Layden”, and “fire Thomas” like it was going out of style. What happened to the supposed “most knowledgeable fans” thing?)

  61. That’s why I don’t believe in the “bring veterans to build a culture” argument, because it treats every veteran as if they were all the same. Yes, I guess if you bring Tim Duncan to your team he’ll set an example and players will respect him, but a lot of those guys are really just 30 year old dudes that act like they’re 15 anyway. Young players who are driven will be dedicated to the game no matter who they play with, and if mentorship is of any importance, you can just use the last 2 roster spots on a Udonis Haslem type of guy so he can mentor the young guys, or bring in coaches who can work with the kids on this type of stuff.

  62. every year pick up something different, this season – the whole add “vet leadership” stuff has been pretty revealing…should have already gotten the hint though after guys like afflalo and noah…

  63. We didn’t bring Morris in for vet leadership, we brought him in because a stack of cash was burning a hole in Dolan’s pocket.

    Also, vet leadership isn’t moral leadership, how to be a man, or one of those “cool” street preachers who gets today’s youth. Vet leadership is playing basketball a certain way. You can be a horrible person and still play hard and smart.

  64. Frank is probably part of a pending trade. I don’t buy the showcasing theories. No one is making decisions based on how somebody plays in their most recent game. That’s just kinda silly

    We traded for Dennis Smith Jr the day after he recorded a triple double. Possibly a coincidence but I think mills is that dumb and he might think other teams are, too.

  65. I was at the game last. Side note: season ticket holders in my office are not pleased with the resale value of their tix. The email today (for seats that had a $210 face value) stated “$75 or best offer.” I offered a chicken parm sandwich. Dude got back to me in 5 minutes and asked me to throw in soda. We had a deal.

    Anyway, the Mike Miller dream ride of solid D, great X’s and O’s, and spectacular player development continues. I left early so I missed all the fun. Crowder deserved a hard foul, not a cheap shot. Run at him hard and block him aggressively. The shove was dirty & sad.

    It was a bullshit thing for Crowder to do but that’s what happens when you roll over like dogs. Show up for the game.

    Didn’t know Dolan was there. That’s good to know. The results are returning to the same level they were under Fizdale. Mills’ hail mary did not work. Shouldn’t be long til he’s made to pay. I hope.

  66. Most likely, Morris was talking that “woman” shit to Crowder during the game and so Crowder got back at him/them by shooting the late 3. Punk move by Payton to shove a guy into the crowd like that. Yet another embarrassing mercenary moment for this embarrassing organization.

  67. The NY Giants under the Mara family in the late 70’s were models of ineptitude, but never approached the malevolence of Dolan and his disastrous ownership of the Knicks. I doubt that Adam Silver will ever have enough ownership support to remove Dolan through the NBA Constitution’s owner removal process. Dolan’s weakness lies in his overtly anti-fan behavior. Will he have a child or teenager removed from the Garden after a “Sell the Team” Chant? Silver has the power to fine and suspend based on conduct detrimental to the league. The Oakley mess reinforced Dolan’s image, but Charles’s antics blunted any momentum for a Dolan suspension. The fact that the New York Rangers have not reached the depths that the Knicks have reached also works in Dolan’s favor. Pete Rozelle gifted George Young to the Giants and their fortunes turned. We are stuck with this asshole for a long time.

  68. According Mills, Dolan evaluates the team in ten game stretches. Got an eval coming up Saturday! Let’s hope for a big blowout in Indiana.

    They’ve gone:

    2-8
    2-8
    3-7 * Fizdale was fired after and 0-2 start to this one
    4-6
    2-8* assuming an L to the Pacers

    Maybe that mild bit of improvement bought Mills some time while he scapegoated Fizdale but it’s hard to hide now.

  69. Wonder if turning off the hot water in the postgame visitors’ locker room will get Silver’s attention, particularly in the wake of siccing security on a teenager.

    Probably not, but still ….

  70. According Mills, Dolan evaluates the team in ten game stretches.

    According to THCJ, James Dolan is a fucking moron.

  71. Several months ago

    Clarence Gaines
    @ClarenceGaines2
    Can’t put your finger on what irks you about DSJ JMAC – what irked me in his college days was his inability to sustain a consistent level of intensity commensurate with his talent to have a + impact on winning. He’s a tease – if he conquers this aspect of his game, look out!

    Several hours ago

    Clarence Gaines
    @ClarenceGaines2
    DSJ is who I thought he was —

  72. On the brighter side the flack Dolan will get at his country club or whatever over Morris’ comments should force the FO to move him even if they truly don’t want to.

  73. Spot on Bruno. Last two spots, only. Veteran mentors should not get significant minutes or eat up significant money of cap. Their experience & worth is maximized during playoff battles…not on a 17 win team. There is zero doubt that this ship is sailing in wrong direction for over two years now, – why the same co-captains are still behind the wheel is mind blowing to me.

  74. Can’t put your finger on what irks you about DSJ JMAC

    Oh, no — actually it’s quite easy. All you really have to do is look at his four utterly amateurish turnovers in a span of like 10 possessions that would get a sixth grader benched, his hideous jump shot form, his general idiotic play, his poor defense, and maybe most of all, his horrific body language and sourpuss facial expressions — all of which he thinks is justified because he can jump high. There’s more, but that covers it sufficiently. It’s to the fanbase’s eternal credit that they can see all this easily and detest the guy.

  75. As we were getting waxed by the Bucks a couple weeks ago I had the though about how amazing it would be to root for a team like that – well coached, lovable superstar talent, coherent organizational vision top to bottom, dominant, just everything you would want your team to be. But man would I settle for rooting for a team even like the Grizz. Just a young, hungry, decent team with some real hope and potential for the future would be enough for me.

    Alas we have the Knicks instead. Last night’s game was probably the lowpoint of the season so far – not only the home drubbing from mediocre opposition, but the idiotic Payton bullshit late followed by Morris’ embarrassing comments multiplied by the the mysterious Frank benching (although I do think it’s probably because they’re trying to trade DSJ; Frank playing crunch time in the Charlotte game doesn’t make sense with any other reason) made this one really depressing. Only the “sell the team” chants perked me up. Hopefully this shit sandwich is at least a nudge towards them making the right decision re: trading the mercenaries, and particularly Morris.

  76. These last two games are the post-1999 finals low. Things can always get worse; in other words, I’m making no call on whether this will be the historical cycle low — but this is the low. It’s never been worse than Tuesday and last night — and I’m not even sure you need the DSJ bullshit or the punk-ass bullshit at the end of last night’s game to get there.

  77. I’ve gotta say, even though I like Morris as a player, his comments and his attitude turn me off and I won’t be sorry if they trade him. I just hope they get more than a bag of beans for him.

  78. There’s no good FAs, maybe someone wants to avoid the luxury tax tho

    This won’t affect Morris at all. He’ll do his round of apologizing and be fine. In the scheme of things this isn’t that bad.

    Remember how we’ve been celebrating the life of a violent rapist for the past week and probably the rest of this year?

  79. The Morris trade front has been disturbingly quiet considering we’re a week from the deadline.

    Not trading him wouldn’t be the dumbest thing we’ve ever done, not even top 20. But man, at least to me it would be a worse gut punch than a lot of objectively dumber moves/non-moves. Maybe because it’s literally the only thing we have to look forward to for the rest of the 2019-2020 NBA season. Maybe because it’s just so god damn obvious we should trade him for whatever the best offer is at 2:59 PM on February 6th.

    It’s hard to say exactly why, but it would feel like a unique kind of Knicksy defeat.

  80. There have been a lot of lower points than losing a game to a pretty good Grizzlies team. At least in my opinion. We’re a good GM away from being fine. (probably not going to happen, but still)

  81. It’s hard to say exactly why, but it would feel like a unique kind of Knicksy defeat.

    It would remind me of many Isiah-era moves: the Knicks are losing a ton but mortgage part of their future to secure a vet just because he averages 16+ppg.

  82. It’s not just that they lost, DRed, but how they lost: that the bulk of the minutes are going to players who should have no long-term future with this team, that the players continue to embarrass themselves by their stupid play (DSJ’s many turnovers) or stupid behavior (Payton attacking Crowder, Morris’ misogynist comments), that our owner responded to the deserved “sell the team” chant by having his security goons go after a teenage fan, that the visiting locker room somehow didn’t have hot water on this of all nights, that we continue to be a clown car in every possible way. And that, as I said yesterday, our only hope at this point is to trust Guitar Jimmy to be the sensible adult in the room and cut Mills and Perry loose.

  83. I just hope they get more than a bag of beans for him.

    A late first rounder will keep us right on schedule to being a pretty good team in 2025 assuming no more of our good young players realize the organization is clueless, ask for a trade, and then peak several years later for someone else.

    We need “impact” players.

    We aren’t likely to get one late in the first round.

    If we wind up tanking again and praying the ping pong balls fall right, even if they do (and they probably won’t), we are still a lot of years away.

    We need to package picks and make sure we get an impact player to make us an attractive destination for other impact players while we also develop young payers and build with other picks.

  84. A late first rounder will keep us right on schedule to being a pretty good team in 2025

    Where do I sign?

  85. I mean, it was a lowlight. Did I feel a little tempted to post the twitter video of the guy yacking at the baseball game? Sure.

    But I agree with DRed, this seems just a touch above garden variety bad to me considering the broad sweep of the awfulness of the last 20 years.

  86. Knox played 22 minutes, Dotson played 24 minutes, Mitch played 30 minutes, DSJ played 13 terrible minutes for some reason, Portis only played 12 minutes. The only one and done Knick to play more than 26 minutes was Payton. Obviously, what a lowest point for a fan is a matter of individual taste, but for me this game was just another bad loss by a bad team. If Frank is hurt all the minutes are pretty defensible aside from maybe giving Allonzo some time once we started getting blown out. We are who we are. The scrum and Morris’s idiocy is embarrassing, but we should be able to trade him this week. For me this is still nowhere as depressing as the zeke years because I can see fairly simple solutions to improve the Knicks in the relative short term. Fire Mills/Perry and hire someone competent to run the team and we’re really not in bad shape at all.

  87. I’d be happy to get any sort of first rounder for Morris, but I’m not fooling myself that it will suddenly get us a good player. It’s just one more small chip that management can use to make the team better. But management has to be smart to use it and, and this is a big if, a good opportunity to use it has to occur.

  88. By the way, seems worth noting that Dillon Brooks and Trier have fairly similar skillsets and yet the Grizzlies don’t view Brooks as a hopeless lost cause because he’s a flawed player and older than most rookie contract players.

    But hey, what the hell do they know?

  89. There have been a lot of lower points than losing a game to a pretty good Grizzlies team.

    But it is painful watching the anti-Knicks – a team that’s on the rise and has drafted brilliantly (granted the Morant pick was dumb luck)

    Every young player on the Grizz is pretty much better than every young player on the Knicks.

  90. What we definitely have to stop doing is filling cap space by overpaying mercenary players that won’t be part of the team long term. You can add a 28-29 year old player on a good deal for several years, make the team more attractive to free agents, and rebuild like Riley, Morey (after he lost Yao and Tracy), the Clippers, etc.. using several avenues. You just can’t do any of it incompetently.

    I mean, what’s the point of getting another top 5 pick when they can’t even figure out that there were several better options than Knox or that they could have used the Dallas picks to try to land a player like Brandon Clarke who was old enough and good enough to contribute right away, but young enough to be here for 10 years. We are very unlikely to find a Brandon Clarke with those Dallas picks.

  91. I want to add that even with good management, luck plays a significant role in how well they do. Durant’s injury was not predictable and affected the Knicks plan. We do now actually have the assets to trade for some disgruntled impact player if he suddenly becomes available, but there aren’t any such players apparent at the moment. Mills and Perry haven’t put us in a hole even if they haven’t improved the team and for that I am grateful.

  92. You can add a 28-29 year old player on a good deal for several years

    You can, theoretically, do this. The problem is you’re never able to identify such players for a few reasons:

    1) Their current teams do everything in their power to keep them
    2) When they are traded, it’s for overwhelming asset packages we can’t come close to meeting because we never seek out surplus assets
    3) The kind of player you’re describing is either a max player, or doesn’t get a “good deal” for a team that sucks. Take Davis Bertans for example. He’s undoubtedly good, but how many wins would he add to our shitty team? I’ll be somewhat generous and say 7. Would you give him, say, 4/$60M to win 32 games instead of 25, and sacrifice other opportunities (salary dumps, UDFA flyers, etc.) in the process?

  93. By the way, seems worth noting that Dillon Brooks and Trier have fairly similar skillsets and yet the Grizzlies don’t view Brooks as a hopeless lost cause because he’s a flawed player and older than most rookie contract players.

    But hey, what the hell do they know?

    I’m not a huge fan of Trier’s lack of defense and ball stopping style, but he almost unquestionably has at least some chance to develop into a useful 6th man type player on a good team. Keeping him in the doghouse to play overpaid veterans that will be gone at year end is almost as dumb as playing Mudiay over Frank when he was the worse player and likely to be out the door at year end.

    People that know the game well can have disagreements on the quality of the players and rebuilding strategies, but some things are so dumb you just have to shake your head.

  94. You can, theoretically, do this. The problem is you’re never able to identify such players for a few reasons:

    The problem is not identifying them.

    The problem is that we have incompetents in charge that can’t identify them. Even if they could, no quality player is going to sign with a terrible team at a fair price and they won’t fit those players together properly anyway.

    The entire point behind the advanced stats revolution is to give teams with the best information an a better understanding of it an edge in valuing players and finding bargains that other teams don’t see.

    My whole shtick is that the publicly available “one number” metrics are all incomplete and incapable of measuring the complex interrelationship between player’s skills, teammates, systems, coaching, etc.. So I often disagree with those numbers. But I’m totally on board with using data to find bargains anywhere they exist. We just don’t have Pat Riley, Jerry West, Masai etc.. in charge here in NY to do it well.

  95. The Grizz drafted the consensus 4th best player with the 4th pick and the consensus 2nd best player with the 2nd pick. Clarke was a smart pick. They’ve done a very nice job assembling a very promising young team but the smart stuff they’ve done is mostly the other stuff.

  96. With the new draft lottery seedings luck plays a bigger role than lousiness in getting good players. We are Knicksy, which is the opposite of lucky.

  97. The Grizzlies didn’t do anything much special, they just had a good team that they broke up at the right time and made the correct picks on their slots. They got very lucky to get Morant, but they also identified Gasol and Conley had to go and made the appropriate moves.

  98. Well, that was an embarrassing evening.

    Someone else asked why the hell the vets were even in with 50 seconds left in a blowout. Good question.

    There were about 5 or 6 different pathetic displays from the Knicks last night. I’m not sure how Mills/Perry are still around at this point. A smart business owner would have them removed at this point and bring in an interim who isn’t afraid to blow this mess up at the trade deadline. But here we are.

    Only Mitch should be untouchable at this point and maybe RJ for hustle reasons only (he’s not very good.) At least thoughts of retaining Morris might have diminished after last night, so that’s a positive.

  99. These last two games are the post-1999 finals low. Things can always get worse; in other words, I’m making no call on whether this will be the historical cycle low — but this is the low. It’s never been worse than Tuesday and last night

    They say the darkest hour is right before the dawn…

    Except in the case of the Knicks, the darkest hour is right before a darker hour…

    And a darker hour after that…

  100. Get McKinsey on the line…we need a refresh on that “how to fix the franchise” analysis….or maybe the old one has to be dumbed down for Jimmy..the first slide should be a pictorial of him lowering the ax on Pills…maybe last nights display was part of the “rebrand”….”New York tough!”

  101. The Grizzlies didn’t do anything much special, they just had a good team that they broke up at the right time and made the correct picks on their slots. They got very lucky to get Morant, but they also identified Gasol and Conley had to go and made the appropriate moves.

    Also, they picked up Dillon Brooks for a 2nd round pick from Houston and he’s turning into a nice player for them.

    I agree Memphis hasn’t done anything earth shattering, but the timing of the Gasol and Conley deals was ideal, and Valancunis and Crowder are solid veterans to complement the young players (and yes, Crowder is a bit of a douche, but we’d love him on our team)

  102. I would even argue they took a bit too long to cut ties with Conley, but he also had a pretty bad injury so the timings were weird on that one. Brooks has been scoring very well lately, he might be turning into a real piece for them. Veterans like Valanciunas and Crowder are available at the trade market every year, Crowder was even just a throw in in the Conley trade, the picks were the real package. You can get adequate veterans on the market whenever you want, there’s no need to overpay them as free agents.

  103. I agree Memphis hasn’t done anything earth shattering, but the timing of the Gasol and Conley deals was ideal,

    That seems like a bit of a stretch. Weren’t Conley and Gasol the kind of veterans a team going nowhere shouldn’t keep around so as to not win 33 games, thus losing ping-pong balls?

  104. These last two games are the post-1999 finals low. Things can always get worse; in other words, I’m making no call on whether this will be the historical cycle low — but this is the low. It’s never been worse than Tuesday and last night — and I’m not even sure you need the DSJ bullshit or the punk-ass bullshit at the end of last night’s game to get there.

    Post-Isiah Thomas low.

    The Isiah era was dark, man. Last night had nothing on the Melo Mardy Collins brawl.

  105. That seems like a bit of a stretch. Weren’t Conley and Gasol the kind of veterans a team going nowhere shouldn’t keep around so as to not win 33 games, thus losing ping-pong balls?

    He’s talking about the decision to trade those players away.

  106. Also, they picked up Dillon Brooks for a 2nd round pick from Houston and he’s turning into a nice player for them.

    a little know fact (due to severe lack of interest) is that this pick they traded for brooks actually turned out to be de’anthony melton, who they (well, a different grizzlies administration) later stole back from the suns. i would go on quite a bit about how nice that trade was if melton hadn’t already secured that restraining order on me.

    edit: partly scooped by dred

  107. Right, but the timing was late. They should have drafted somewhere around 9th, because Gasol/Conley helped them get a bunch of wins even though they were going nowhere. But instead they lucked into the second pick, so all that gets swept away.

  108. Who the hell is Lugentz Dort? That seems like a totally fictitious person on the Thunder roster putting up 23 points on 13 ts.

    Please don’t tell me we drafted the wrong Canadian.

  109. Get McKinsey on the line…we need a refresh on that “how to fix the franchise” analysis….or maybe the old one has to be dumbed down for Jimmy..the first slide should be a pictorial of him lowering the ax on Pills…maybe last nights display was part of the “rebrand”….”New York tough!”

    McKinsey’s presentation to Dolan should consist of three slides:

    Slide 1 (title slide): How to Fix the Franchise
    Slide 2: Go away. Sell the team. Stop subjecting everyone, including yourself, to this misery. Please go away.
    Slide 3: Questions?

  110. Last night was the first game I’d watched in about 3 weeks or so. I stuck it out to the tragi-comedic ending.

    I wonder if Miller left the vets out there to the bitter end to punish them for all the lethargic play? Crowder’s steal was fine, but the corner three was bush league. However, he may have done us a favor by shining a spotlight on what a bunch of lazy vet whiners the team currently has. Maybe even Dolan can now see what an absurdist comedy the team has become? Right?

    Yeah, probably not.

  111. Someone yesterday said we shouldn’t look to Memphis as a model franchise and I was kind of shocked by that statement.

    They’ve had a few poor seasons recently but they had a nice stretch of almost a decade where they were a 50 plus win team every year in the West that usually made at least the second round. And now they’re on the upswing again after only a few bad seasons. Its impossible for a team to be good for a long stretch and not follow it up with a few poor seasons. For a small city franchise, being a 50 win team for 5 plus years that makes the semi finals most years…that’s a pretty great outcome. We should be so lucky.

  112. The issue with veterans depends on where your team is at currently in terms of contention and many other factors.

    Can you add something to an older team that would open the window to contention again for another year or two?

    Will adding that old veteran open the window for your team (Toronto and Utah are doing fine with Gasol and Conley)?

    Will the player be productive for the duration of the contract AND add value to your young players in terms of teaching them or getting them playoff experience sooner?

    Will having that player help attract another younger prime free agent at a later date

    How long is the contract? (do you get the space back right away”)

    etc…

    There are no hard fast rules. There are usually conflicting pluses and minuses. There are some obvious cases, but not all of them are so clear.

    The Lakers blew up a very young and very promising team to get the last few puffs of Lebron James at age 35 with Anthony Davis. There is probably a 2 year window until the Lakers become the Pelicans and the Pelicans are on a decade long period of great basketball with Zion, “Ingram”, “Ball”, and the 3 first round picks from LA. Also, Josh Hart is not a bum at age 24 and Ingram is breaking out into a real star on his own.

    Who won that deal?

    It depends if James and Davis stay healthy and win a championship before LA goes on their death spiral and Davis wants out of LA unless they can find stars to replace James.

  113. What do people think about Malik Beasley? I know he is struggling a bit this year but his numbers last year looked really good. Is he worth targeting either in a trade or as a RFA? I mean he probably will turn into a pumpkin as soon as we get him but i think he is the kind of guy you go after i.e. pay him a little more then he is worth now and hope he outplays his contract.

  114. Someone yesterday said we shouldn’t look to Memphis as a model franchise and I was kind of shocked by that statement.

    Memphis is a mildly competent franchise, so yes we should aspire to be them.

    But I wouldn’t hold them up as a model in general. They traded a 1st round pick for Jon Leuer. They’re about to convey a first to Boston for the Jeff Green trade. They probably could have acquired Luka if they were inclined to.

    They lucked into Ja and made a good move picking up Clarke. It’s not a masterclass of management.

  115. They both won that deal?

    Getting AD will always be a win. When Lebron has moved on, and I wouldn’t write Lebron off at 38, AD will be enough to bring in a nice crop of title hungry vets willing to work for less and be in LA.

  116. @stratomatic

    the Rockets did not add vets unless you’re talking about how they took on salary dumps like Kevin Martin and Jared Jeffries. The Rockets before Harden were essentially the Morey 76ers without the tanking. They filled their roster with 2nd rounders and other young players and then reaped the rewards of these players’ development. The most meaningful reward was from developing Kyle Lowry, who was looking like a bust when they acquired him for mediocre vet Rafer Alston. They then flipped Lowry for an unprotected pick from Toronto, which was a shit team at the time, and they used that pick as really the key part of the Harden trade.

    The rest of their development was a product of supreme cap management via long contracts to successful 2nd rounders like Pat Beverley and Chandler Parsons as well as some good gets with late 1st rounders (like the ones the Knicks shouldn’t care about) like Clint Capela and Motiejunas. It was because of this tremendous amount of talent on super cheap contracts — only achievable with draft picks — that the Rockets were able to sign Dwight Howard outright without gutting their team.

    The Heat are essentially run like the Pistons, Hornets and Kings except luckier, better at drafting and in a more tempting location with a highly charismatic team president. Still, I wouldn’t count on them keeping it up as Butler will decline and will fuck over their cap even if Adebayo becomes a legitimate top 10 player. Most of Riley’s success before this year is more accurately a product of Wade anyway. Riley accidentatanked into Wade. Wade dragged a Knicksy team of aging vets to a title in 2006 and then convinced the league MVP to come play in Miami in 2010.

  117. hubert, I think pointing to one or two bad trades or moves isn’t really a fair way to assess a franchise.

    Memphis has been more successful than not over the last 10 years.

  118. LOL. The two minute report I’ve been waiting on for that Marcus Morris “extended leg” thing came out- correct call. Not why they lost the game by a long shot, but bull. shit.

    ” Replay review of the foul called on Graham (CHA) pursuant to a coach’s challenge was deemed successful. While he is moving towards Morris (NYK), Graham would have missed him if Morris hadn’t extended his leg to his side during his shooting motion.”

    BTW- I think after Kobe’s death players have had a larger chip on their shoulders, and taking things MUCH more seriously. I like.

  119. #210

    My point was those other teams did not tank and rebuild via draft.

    My disagreement with the consensus here is over tanking and rebuilding via draft.

    IMHO, there are instances where you should clean house, tank, and try to get a star player out of the draft. However, as soon at you do that, IMHO you should typically immediately start looking at every possible option for rebuilding your team, including free agency, player trades, trading draft picks, renting cap space, drafting players in subsequent years etc.. That could even include adding players in their late 20s.

    IMHO, there is no magic formula.

    Every environment is different, the location of the good values changes, the availability is different from city to city and depending on what stage you are at in your rebuild.

    In NY, IMHO we seem to have learned the wrong lesson.

    We made some terrible deals by trading away picks and signing bad free agents to overblown contracts. The lesson learned seems to have been that trading picks is bad and you have to rebuild via draft.

    Again, IMHO, That was the wrong lesson.

    We just had incompetent boobs at the helm. You can rebuild in a variety of ways and win a championship. The key is not the method or path. The key is the competency of the execution.

  120. the guys who are currently in the front office for the grizz got hired on april 2019…. so was their head coach… before that was chris wallace who’s responsible for just about every non-rookie on the team… before that they were quite the mess… and yea fiz was very much a part of that dysfunction….

    the new guys did take over and made some solid moves… they did let delon wright go which was probably an error but everything else ranged from a B to an A move…

    this stuff isn’t that hard… you get good basketball players and get good basketball people around them then good things happen…. and those changes will become apparent a lot quicker than you think….

  121. I’m not anti Memphis. Just saying even steve mills could have selected Ja at 2.

    Not so sure he would have nailed the Jackson pick at 4, even though it was pretty obvious.

    They look solid but they were incredibly lucky to jump to 2. If I wanted to model the knicks after another franchise I’d start with the Clippers and the Nets and probably rattle off a few more teams before I got to Memphis.

  122. So they’re doing a goddamn Elam Ending for the ASG? That’s awesome. I hope the feedback is overwhelmingly positive.

    The game should be “win by 2,” but yeah, this is very good.

  123. I’m a big proponent of the Elam ending as well but I wish they were introducing it without the separate confusing-ness of the individually scored quarters. I think it’s going to make the ending seem more obscure and complicated when part of the appeal is that it’s actually a quite simple change that would have large benefits.

  124. I wonder if this Showergate thing has any legs? Like, is it actually possible that Dolan, in a tiff after being humiliated at the game, ordered the water to be cut off in the visiting team showers?

  125. just thinking about morris thinking in his head the worse thing to call a man is a woman – i guess that was the closest he could get to calling crowder a bitch on tv…and, thinking about WNBA playoffs this season where things got pretty physical at times…i wouldn’t exactly call some of those women soft…

    i get what morris was trying to say…who knows how much longer he’ll be here, but – more and more it makes less and less sense to send out this lineup:
    elf
    reggie
    morris
    randall
    taj

    i have no idea what the point of that is when you’re one of the worst teams in the league…

    elf’s action last night was a little impulsive – but, i’m pretty sure at that stage in life – i would have reacted in the exact same fashion…

    now – jimmy d slithering out of the garden during the “sell the team” chants – just makes me think the crowd needs to start that chant a whole lot earlier in the game…

    what really amuses me though – turning off the hot water and turning down the water pressure in the visiting locker room…that is simply comedic gold right there…

    well played knickerbockers, well played indeed…

  126. Dolan being petty enough to fuck with the grizz showers? Absolutely. But it’s also not anything the league is going to care about outside at most some sort of fine. I think it’s also just part of sports culture to fuck with the visiting teams locker room sometimes

  127. At this point I think the Knicks should do something really desperate.

    But I don’t mean desperate like we normally do desperate, signing some big name coach or overpaying for a free agent.

    I think we should trade for John Wall or Batum or some other super onerous contract and we should ask for a boatload of picks and young prospects to do it.

    We don’t ever spend free agent money wisely. And honestly do we really think we can turn this around in 2 years in time to go after The Greek Freak?

    The draft IS a crap shoot. We all ready have 2 extra first round picks cause of the Zinger trade. Imagine if we could add 2 or 3 more first round picks, potentially top 10 picks, in the next 4 or 5 years along with some more second round picks. You are more likely to find a star at the top of the draft, but after the first few picks, the rest of the lottery can be full of one and done guys that will take a few years to develop. Later in the draft is where you can find value with upper class men who are more NBA ready. And sometimes you luck out and get a real star later in the draft.

    We’ve done a good job not trading picks. But if we added to those 6 first round picks, we could put ourselves in a position to really take gambles on picks and just by sheer numbers one of them is bound to hit. We need one star cost controlled star player to turn this around.

    John Wall might be too much of a bad deal to take on unless they were willing to just give us everything. But there are other bad contracts out there and we should take them on. We have expiring contracts. Let our new GM take over with RJ, Mitch, a mountain of picks and 4 or 5 years to really build this thing.

  128. I hope the Knicks pursue Ja Morant as a free agent in 5 or so years. They should guarantee a “hot shower after every game” in the contract offer…

  129. @222 is it? I would think this “professional” league would want to crack down hard on this if true.

    Maybe Dolan can be egged into doing even dumber stuff so that he’ll eventually be forced to sell the way Sterling was?

  130. @225
    Well, we can hope that the league has a rap sheet on Dolan, and that Showergate could be the “straw that broke the camel’s back,” “final nail in the coffin,” or whatever!
    :-)
    I’ve heard of teams only having cold water after a game, but not little to no water pressure, as well.

  131. I confess to not remembering all of the details of the bugged call that got Sterling evicted, but … if Morris’s heinously misogynistic rant goes unmentioned and unpunished by Dolan and the FO and you add that on to the Anucha Browne Sanders misogynistic fiasco, which Steve Mills was hip-deep in … was Sterling’s private phone call really that much worse? Unlike with Sterling, Dolan’s are all public-facing matters.

    Maybe the answer is ultimately yes, but the issue is certainly worth consideration by Park Avenue — particularly if you add in stuff like the Oakley ban and Dolan routinely siccing his security goons on fans. (And the distinct likelihood that he ordered locker room hot water turned off in AN NBA LOCKERROOM. An NBA OWNER!!!)

    Why is he getting a pass for all this stuff?

  132. Well, we can hope that the league has a rap sheet on Dolan.

    Having him removed would literally be worth all our draft picks for the next 5 years.

  133. E, Donald Sterling told his half-black girlfriend he didn’t want her going to NBA games with other black people or posting photos with other black people on her Instagram. Basically associating with black people in public. So ya, it was pretty bad.

    Here’s the link if you have 10 minutes.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhT6d5fMhzI

  134. Marcus Morris had an abject apology today. So there is that.

    If Dolan actually cut the water to the Grizz locker room, and I don’t believe that, I would actually put that in the positive side of the ledger. That is the kind of ridiculous pettiness that turns a season like this into performance art.

  135. @stratomatic and my point is that Houston did build through the draft and just incidentally ended up being a decent team at the same time. Every decent veteran HOU had on a not nutty salary was traded. Extra cap room was used to add other team’s dead salaries or on young players like Asik and Lin. The fact that Houston didn’t lose more games is a reflection of just how dedicatedly they tore the team apart and how much value Morey was able to get from the piles of 2nd rounders and late 1sts that he was able to consequently acquire.

    Your focus on tanking is myopic. For most intelligent rebuilding teams, the goal is not to lose lots of games. It’s just part of an overall investment in becoming better in the future. If your young players happen to win you 35 games, well that’s even better because a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. What you have suggested is investing in players on teh decline or in the plateau period of their careers. These players are not “birds in hand”. They are liabilities, which you hope will fool free agents into thinking the Knicks are on the upswing.

  136. I still think Morris is an asshole, overpaid, not going to be worth his next contract except maybe to a small number of contenders who need a stopgap at SF/PF, but at least he wrote his own apology.

    “upmost respect”

    “everything they mean to us”

    “in anyway”

    “apologize with my comments”

    I’m not even denigrating his writing ability — that shit was not written by an agent or PR firm. Kudos to him for actually trying.

    Dolan is a conman and an idiot, but I don’t think he’s dumb enough to fuck with the opposing team’s showers to get back at them. It would be a conspiracy of several people and bound to come back on him. No fucking way.

  137. #231 is one of the better articulated responses to the Strat view I’ve seen here in a while, much better than any of my own. All we’ve ever wanted the Knicks to do is demonstrate a commitment to the future, and everyone would be delighted if they drafted players who were so good they kept them out of the high lottery. What we don’t want is them to sacrifice draft position, salary flexibility, and roster spots in pursuit of vague “cultural” benefits in the present, and Strat is never really able to answer for the fact that if you sign too many of these guys (like, two), they necessarily cannot be used to attract other free agents because that’s how the salary cap works.

  138. Dolan is a conman and an idiot, but I don’t think he’s dumb enough to fuck with the opposing team’s showers to get back at them. It would be a conspiracy of several people and bound to come back on him. No fucking way.

    “Who will rid the Grizzlies of their hot, turbulent postgame showers??”

  139. i swear, with some of the “overtly sensitive” comments written and expressed here from time to time – i wonder sometimes if you aren’t all a bunch of woman…

    some of you gentlemen simply need to unbunch your panties once in a while…

    i may just need you to back me up on this one strat…i know you know what i know…

    man up everyone

  140. you should typically immediately start looking at every possible option for rebuilding your team, including free agency, player trades, trading draft picks, renting cap space, drafting players in subsequent years etc.. That could even include adding players in their late 20s.

    Sure, look at every possible option. If you can find a great value free agent, go for it! But the problem with adding players in free agency is that it is very, very difficult to find surplus value on those deals. Especially guys in their late 20’s: you’re paying for the production of their primes but you’re getting their decline phases.

    Nobody is saying “never sign a free agent, only acquire players through the draft,” that is a straw man. The better way to look at it is HOARD ASSETS. If you can sign a great value free agent to a deal where he’s providing surplus production, that’s an asset! Draft picks are assets. Young players with upside on rookie deals are assets. Over time some of the assets turn into valuable players. And some of those assets can be used to acquire the star players you covet.

    When the next Anthony Davis or Karl-Anthony Towns becomes available, if you want to go get that guy, guess what you need? Assets. A combination of young players and draft picks usually does the trick. Usually a team that is trading Anthony Davis doesn’t give a fuck about getting Marcus Morris’ age 31-33 seasons in return.

  141. I mean kudos to Morris for writing his own apology, sure, but the apology showed an express disregard for why people were upset in the first place or for really learning from the incident in any way. Like actually if your go-to insult for someone is that they have “female tendencies” it shows that you do not, in fact, have the “upmost” respect for women.

    There are lots of ways to improve from being the kind of asshole who says what Morris said last night (I speak from personal experience because I was definitely that kind of asshole at ~ age 15) but all of them involve actually reflecting on yourself. I’m always going to look askance at any apology that includes a variation on the theme “I’m not the kind of person who does [thing that I did]”. You actually pretty clearly are that kind of person. If you don’t want to be that person anymore you need to interrogate that rather than deny it.

  142. Oh yeah, I’m not absolving him. He says it was heat of the moment — yeah bro, that’s when a person might show his true character. And there’s literally no way to read his comments as respectful of woman unless you are a person who believes that women are inherently all of those things that he accused Jae Crowder of being.

    I was just surprised that he would release a statement that was clearly not run past his agent. Then I remember that he fired (or was fired by) Rich Paul and realize that he’s probably going free solo on all of this. Good luck with that suspension, Mook.

  143. Yes, but let’s not criticize it. It’s low-hanging fruit when you’re talking about a guy who escaped shit like this:

    When the twins were in high school, their house burned down with their family cat trapped inside. Their mother, Angel, moved them and their brother Blake into a small home in Hunting Park with their maternal grandparents, a tight squeeze for teenage boys who would grow to be nearly 6-foot-10. They lived in the basement and slept on a mattress, with no heat and a ceiling that was only 6½ feet high, which made it impossible for them to fully stand up. Yet they were grateful, because at least they had family who cared. Only one in 20 of their friends had a father around — the twins’ dad was nowhere to be seen, either — and their mother worked long hours so she could pay for their basketball shoes and something to eat at supper. The twins leaned on each other for companionship, solace and courage.

    Key difference with the sexist shit: no one’s hurt by “upmost” except insufferable grammarians, and they can go fuck off.

  144. Oh, I love language failures — was one of my favorite parts of being an ELL tutor for years. I’m just not about to insult people’s intelligence/capacity/education for them. Not accusing you of doing that, by the way.

  145. One of my first jobs out of college was working for the magazine that AAA members would receive in the mail. It was a super toxic work environment somehow, lots of people getting fired and reprimanded and thrown under the bus all the time.

    One dude who worked there was unfairly blamed for some fuckup, and he told me he wasn’t going to be the “scrapgoat” this time. Which is a great language fail. To this day I always use the word “scrapgoat” when I get the chance.

  146. I mean, to be fair, the scrap-goat could be the one who has to eat everyone else’s garbage, so that makes sense to me.

  147. I mean, to be fair, the scrap-goat could be the one who has to eat everyone else’s garbage, so that makes sense to me.

    That’s what makes it great! It’s actually BETTER than “scapegoat.”

  148. I mean, to be fair, the scrap-goat could be the one who has to eat everyone else’s garbage, so that makes sense to me.

    Isn’t that just the job of a normal goat?

  149. Thoughts on the change in All-Star format? My position is it does not make me give any more or less of a shit about the All-Star game. I like the charity aspect and kudos for thinking outside the box though.

  150. I’m sort of feeling that upmost, like scrapgoat, is better than the original, and I’m considering incorporating both into my vocabulary.

  151. Years ago, someone in my (very low-brow) family confused “doof” with “goofy” and thus “doofy” was born. My 8-year-old niece loves it.

    The ASG is still going to be a snoozefest — I just hope they’re test-running this for greater use. The playoffs, at least, should not have games ending via clock management. The Elam Ending is a smart but radical solution, but at the very least make OT periods a race to a fixed score. The games should be decided by normal basketball strategy (put the ball in the hoop), not an extended game of keepaway and make-your-free-throws.

  152. Ugh. Despite ‘significant interest’ from the LA Clippers, Marcus Morris and the Knicks are both interested in a long-term contract, as per Begley.

  153. These idiots are really keeping that idiot past this season, it kinda feels inevitable right now. My hope was that they would get fired before they could do any lasting damage, but I guess they’re eager to screw us.

  154. Mills and Perry have mutual options for next year, so technically Dolan wouldn’t have to fire them, but simply not exercise the option. And conversely, he’d have to take an affirmative step for them to come back. Might make it easier and more face-saving.

  155. RIP Kobe.

    I’m sorry that your Pilot was incompetent. I hated that you played for the lakers. I loved seeing you lose.

    Kobe the story teller, the mamba, the father —- I absolutely adored. I remember watching GiGi highlights over these last couple of years and thought that she was going to change the WNBA. What a huge loss — the wisdom of a legend distilled into a third generation professional athlete. The lineage, basketball gold!!!!!!!!

    I don’t know why this one hurts. It could be that I recently felt death reach across the aisle and take my mother. Maybe it’s because the era of trump has plunged us hurtling towards darkness and defeat. Maybe it’s because the knicks can’t get Mitchell Robinson 30 minutes a game. Like what the actual fuck. Revolutions a lie.

    I’ll say this tho. Everyone one this board talking about Kobe’s rape case is just a hater. The case was dropped my dudes. Legally he went through the process and wasn’t guilty. Thots lie all the time. KOBE!

    Edit: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eISo-iFGGDg

  156. Remember when Dolan actually extended Isiah when all of NY was already calling for Isiah’s head? And how the timing hilariously coincided with the Knicks occupying the 8 seed for a few days in like March?

    Even Phil really had to make his own firing happen. Dolan picked up Phil’s option for tens of millions a few months before.

    I don’t think he likes changing guys if he can help it.

  157. Fucking Kobe Bryant himself acknowledged in his letter of apology that he understood the sexual relation wasn’t consensual in her point of view, but we still have trolls saying shit like that.

    That’s why idiots like Morris feel it’s in their right to say stupid shit like that.

  158. Gonna re-post myself from a previous thread:

    To clarify:

    In Kobe’s case, the woman had bruises on her neck, a bruise on her cheek, and her blood was found on Kobe’s shirt. This wasn’t an issue of mistaken consent, but a violent disregard for it.

    Add to that vaginal trauma consistent with non-consensual sex. In no way was this consensual.

  159. I’ve read many accounts of the Battle of the Alamo…and not one has any mention of James Bowie deflowering any of the inhabitants…get your facts straight before you tarnish the memory of a great american pioneer!

  160. Rape apologism won’t help you make any friends around here, I’m pretty sure, maybe Reub’s new account and that’s it.

  161. So, to turn the conversation away from a troll who’s going to be banned as soon as a mod wakes up, does anyone here watch The Good Place? The series finale was tonight and was pretty great. Even though it was kind of obvious how their stories were ultimately going to end after the previous episode, it still managed to surprise and packed an emotional but uplifting punch. I’m sad to see it go but I love to watch it leave (on its own terms).

  162. Haven’t seen it yet, so don’t say anything, vincoug! I only just found it as something to watch with my kids on Netflix. Middle of season 3. Amazed that a comedy about ethics and moral behavior exists, never mind it being so good!

  163. It’s fine if you want to mourn Kobe, the accident was tragic, but that’s not the right way to do it.

    Sorry about your mother

  164. Waiting for The Good Place to hit Hulu…

    Kinda wishing I still had cable right about now, so I could have watched it live.

  165. what marcus morris senior said was offensive, but, it had nothing to do with women…

    i’m no expert and I could be wrong, but, sadly it would seem that deep prejudices against homosexuality exist in some segments of the african-american community…

    he thought of the worse thing he could call crowder, only he knew enough that he couldn’t use certain words…

    hopefully morris squared things with reggie, who’s out there trying to fight that exact kind of ignorant way of thinking…

    someone mentioned it earlier, but, yeah, when folks get all emotional they do tend to let slip some of their deeper feelings…

  166. Won’t spoil anything rama! The last season, particularly the first half, is a but uneven but it really nails the landing.

    @278 It’s on NBC so you can get an antenna and watch without cable. That’s how I watched it. Also, I’m pretty sure NBC.com streams it for free.

  167. lol, honestly those options didn’t even occur to me. Guess I’ve been on Netflix and Hulu too long.

    Also Locast is a great option for online, local broadcast. Legal, free, and in most major cities. I keep telling people about it, and didn’t even think of it myself.

  168. Can’t wait for our next game!

    Knicks drama beats any tv series out there easily.
    The only sitcom that has a chance compared to this season knicks is Kevin Sorbo’s Hercules!

  169. I’m glad we nipped that bullshit in the bud

    he thought of the worse thing he could call crowder, only he knew enough that he couldn’t use certain words…

    This is perfectly plausible.

  170. I guess we can hope that Pills is holding out for higher value on Morris. Might as well keep the lie to myself going got a little longer.

  171. Berman:

    The 127-106 blowout loss to Memphis and ensuing fracas seemed like a final-straw moment for the management team of Knicks GM Scott Perry and president Steve Mills.

    Perry signed seven free agents, but many the wrong ones. On Wednesday, the Knicks were exposed as not just a marginally talented club but an immature and a reckless one too with Julius Randle and Morris trying to get at the Memphis players.

    The Knicks’ next home game is not until Feb. 6 versus Orlando — the trading-deadline date that may be the reason Perry and Mills still have jobs today.

    According to league sources, there’s a fear inside the Knicks front office that either Perry or Mills will be fired soon after the trade deadline.

    Maybe they’ve already been told they’re done …..

  172. This thread is getting long and it’s still a day and a half to the next game. Maybe we could have a new thread?

  173. So if Mills and/or Perry can’t trade players for picks because they are about to be fired, are you happy with that trade off; i.e. no trades but new management?

  174. Goodness yes. It’s a very Knicksian bargain, but getting rid of Pills is liable to have more long-term positive benefits to the team than anything we might get for our varied flotsam by the trade deadline.

    Of course now I’m envisioning Isiah Thomas and Mark Jackson as the expert team that replaces them… maybe we just don’t do anything, ever?

  175. That Begley piece is absolutely horrifying. “There are members of the organization who see Morris as an important part of New York’s rebuild”. Their reasoning? He’s a good influence on the younger players (is he though?) and he is “unshaken by the added scrutiny that comes with playing in New York”. This freaking organization man. Getting a first rounder for Morris is seriously the lay-up to end all lay-ups and we’re really going to not only blow it, but manage to come away with an albatross contract for a mid-30s swing-man for our troubles.

  176. I feel like if the front office just acted as if New York was like Milwaukee, lots of bad decisions would melt away

  177. retaining marcus morris is the key to convincing derozan to opt out so we can max him for age 31-34. then all the papers will write how we really raked pop over the coals times two and ian begley will put out an equivocating ‘there are good arguments on both sides’ column.

  178. So if Mills and/or Perry can’t trade players for picks because they are about to be fired, are you happy with that trade off; i.e. no trades but new management?

    Without question. Not even an iota of a second thought.

  179. I think people are way over complicating this Morris incident.

    He clearly wanted to insult Crowder. Basketball players (all of them), hate being called soft. Hate is probably not even the right word. It’s more extreme that. He could have simply called him “soft” for flopping, but he was angry and wanted to be even more insulting than that. So he called him feminine and said he had female tendencies. Yikes!

    IMO, what he was TRYING to say was “extremely soft”.

    However, IMHO, in that moment of anger I don’t think he even considered the possibility that some women might be offended by that. He didn’t understand why they might. Some men find softer, more feminine, more compassionate, caring women (basically the stereotype of women relative to the tough masculine testosterone loaded male) more attractive than the tougher, stronger, female leaders in business, sports, and politics that also exist.

    So in his mind, calling a male basketball player those names was insulting to Crowder but not insulting to the women in his life or women in general that he admires those qualities in.

    It was a very ignorant thing to say, but I don’t think there was any malice or mysogony in his comments related to women. It was just dumb to not understand why some women would be very offended at being categorized as “softer” than men in general or on average.

  180. So Morris wasn’t being a misogynist he was just publicly airing ignorant, harmful stereotypes about women. Got it, thanks for the valuable contribution.

  181. @292

    It all comes down to bringing in people that understand the complexities of basketball well, how to identify the players (and coaches) with the talent and skills necessary for winning (including work ethic, basketball IQ, team oriented thinking), how to fit those players together to maximize the team’s output, and with the skills to pay the right price/length of contract for the desired players while managing the cap.

    It’s not easy to find one person that can do all those things well. In fact, it usually fails.

    So you should get two people that compliment each other’s talents.

    We have two guys that are bad on the basketball side (terrible might be a better word) and Perry is only barely tolerable on the salary/cap space side. That’s why it has been a debacle.

    The real problem is that Dolan is clueless on every level. No matter how well meaning and willing to spend money he is to create a successful team, he can’t recognize the required talents and skills in his managers. So it has become a revolving door of incompetents and perhaps even scamsters coming to NY to take his money and run.

  182. So Morris wasn’t being a misogynist he was just publicly airing ignorant, harmful stereotypes about women. Got it, thanks for the valuable contribution.

    IMO

    He doesn’t hate women.
    He doesn’t think they are inferior.
    He doesn’t think they should make less money for equal work.
    He thinks women can be tough as nails, great leaders, great athletes etc..

    He probably just thinks the “average” woman is softer than the average testosterone loaded male athlete should be.

    He may be wrong about the bell curve and too dumb to know how people would react, but I don’t think he was trying to insult women or thinks any less of them.

    He took his hit, apologized, and now we have to decide what to do with him with basketball being the only consideration.

  183. @244 reminds of the time I was working for a university in S Flo. The front desk lady was such a gem. Nicest woman you’d ever meet, but she butchered words all the time. All time favorite is when she meant to say something was a catastrophe, but comically pronounced it as a “Fatastif”. It’s been 10 years since I’ve said the word catastrophe.

    I am also finding it hard to watch this team. It’s a 20 year war of attrition that I’m starting to lose. It’s very sad that i’m pining for the days when Charlie Ward was our PG. Knox over SGA still hurts.

  184. it kind of feels like we’re heading in to another phil jackson situation…

    crazy enough, but, the negative feedback that dolan gets from the crowd at msg seems to really have a impact on him…

    keep it up fans…at this point shuffling the front office deck doesn’t seem near as risky as holding on to pills…

    didn’t the garden just undergo some super expensive renovation a few years ago…I guess they came up short a fee bucks from being able to hook up the visiting locker room’s plumbing…

  185. I’m pretty sure Morris was trying to be PC with the media by saying “female tendencies”. I know that seems backwards, but he was clearly trying to think of a way to call Crodwer a P*ssy without using that word. There’s probably better synonyms than “female tendencies” though…

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