Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Monday, October 20, 2014

2013 Game Thread: Knicks @ Thunder

Four fouls in the first three minutes. Here we go!

231 comments on “2013 Game Thread: Knicks @ Thunder

  1. DS

    KIDD!!! That kept me from punching a way after Chandler bobbled that rebound which led to a layup.

  2. d-mar

    OKC has had the same starting lineup for 70 games this year, seem to be the only team in the NBA that’s avoided the injury bug

  3. dogrufus

    We’re on pace for about 52 fouls tonight.

    Fuck the ridiculous home court some teams get. Durant is great but he sure did some up in the right era.

  4. AnonymousODG

    d-mar:
    OKC has had the same starting lineup for 70 games this year, seem to be the only team in the NBA that’s avoided the injury bug

    New York teams in general have not been lucky at all. Knicks frontcourt decimated, Yankees sluggers decimated, Giants defense decimated this past year. Yeesh.

  5. DS

    d-mar:
    OKC has had the same starting lineup for 70 games this year, seem to be the only team in the NBA that’s avoided the injury bug

    Helps that 3 of them are under 24!

  6. dogrufus

    d-mar:
    Why do I find Kevin Martin so annoying?

    Because he has extremely ugly but effective shooting form and gets to the line a ton.

  7. mr.JayP

    Why is novak’s shot so short ? His legs can’t be tired with the amount of minutes he plays.

  8. Juany8

    It’s incredible that cope land is giving the Knicks legit production. He’s actually a pretty decent little option off the bench, like a cheap version of Wilson chandler.

  9. AnonymousODG

    Ooph. Thought the chatter about OKC getting calls had as much to do with jealousy as anything else… but we’ve got 0 FT attempts compared to 8. Can’t keep up with that except with gonzo 3 pt shooting.

  10. er

    Good move putting perk on Melo. Intuitively he wants to drive, but ibaka is there for help. Melo needs to adjust to this and find Tyson cutting when he drives In The second quarter

  11. AnonymousODG

    thenamestsam:
    Lol at Derek fisher. What the fuck is Scott brooks thinking with him?

    He’s tapped into the Woodson line of thinking, “Hey, instead of exploiting their small lineup and use mismatches… let’s play down to their level and play small also!”

  12. dogrufus

    Almost shocked Durant got called for steps there… It was like his third obvious travel

  13. Juany8

    Wow Durant got called for a travel and then a foul on the other end. Almost like the refs realized they’re supposed to call fouls on both teams

  14. AnonymousODG

    d-mar:
    Cope is playing his ass off today

    I appreciate his effort, but I’d rather our offense move through JR. He hasn’t even scored yet, just getting to the line now. I’d rather take half of Copeland’s pts away, be down 1 and JR have more shots. We need him to heat up. Copeland cannot be our first option.

  15. dogrufus

    AnonymousODG:
    Ooph.Thought the chatter about OKC getting calls had as much to do with jealousy as anything else… but we’ve got 0 FT attempts compared to 8.Can’t keep up with that except with gonzo 3 pt shooting.

    I don’t expect to get a ton of FTs because we shoot so many threes (though Felton and Melo got mauled a couple times), but damn, Durant/Westbrook/Martin basically get in half their FT practice during games.

  16. AnonymousODG

    AnonymousODG: I appreciate his effort, but I’d rather our offense move through JR.He hasn’t even scored yet, just getting to the line now.I’d rather take half of Copeland’s pts away, be down 1 and JR have more shots.We need him to heat up.Copeland cannot be our first option.

    Alright, nvm. Copeland is playing his ass off. And he’s playing so smart right now. I wouldn’t mind him getting more possessions today.

  17. EB

    AnonymousODG: I appreciate his effort, but I’d rather our offense move through JR.He hasn’t even scored yet, just getting to the line now.I’d rather take half of Copeland’s pts away, be down 1 and JR have more shots.We need him to heat up.Copeland cannot be our first option.

    Cope can score just fine, the issue is whether or not he’ll do anything else.

  18. Juany8

    I know a lot of the Knicks success this season has seemed to depend on hot 3 point shooting, but I think the causality is backwards. The Knicks are getting great looks at 3 right now, and those are supposed to be an excellent result of an offensive possession. If Novak and Kidd keep coming open you want them shooting, period. Right now the Knicks are constantly getting great looks

  19. dogrufus

    er:
    Amazing how much taller KD is over melo

    The LeBron/Jordan/Durant class of player is generally simply physically superior, in a way that Melo unfortunately just isn’t. Melo has good size, good athleticism/quickness, and very good strength, but Bron is stronger AND quicker, while Durant is quicker AND bigger.

    It’s the main thing IMO that really separates him from that tier, for all the other BS that’s thrown at him. It’s a game of physics and the extreme physical outliers are king.

  20. dogrufus

    Maybe it’s because we have only one serviceable big man on the whole team right now, but Ibaka sure looks awesome.

  21. d-mar

    Cope, when Melo passes up a 3 and gives the ball to you, he’s not expecting you to jack it up.. (but then he makes a great defensive play)

  22. dogrufus

    One dimensional Chris Copland watch:

    10 pts on 7 shots, 3 rebs, 3 ast, 1 blk, 12 mins

  23. AnonymousODG

    Juany8:
    I know a lot of the Knicks success this season has seemed to depend on hot 3 point shooting, but I think the causality is backwards. The Knicks are getting great looks at 3 right now, and those are supposed to be an excellent result of an offensive possession. If Novak and Kidd keep coming open you want them shooting, period. Right now the Knicks are constantly getting great looks

    It’s been pointed out to me, and I think rightly so, that their hot 3 pt shooting opened up space in the paint since all the Knicks (and their defenders) are hanging on the perimeter. You saw it when Copeland was driving in with impunity with single coverage and nobody else in sight.

    It can work the other way around as well and it’s arguably a chicken-ed argument. But I think today, Copeland and Chandler’s early success had to do with the 3 pt shooting.

  24. DS

    Hubie Brown is such a cute old man insinuating the J.R. is heady for going right at Sefolosha to get him in foul trouble and not because J.R. shoots incessantly.

  25. er

    dogrufus: The LeBron/Jordan/Durant class of player is generally simply physically superior, in a way that Melo unfortunately just isn’t.Melo has good size, good athleticism/quickness, and very good strength, but Bron is stronger AND quicker, while Durant is quicker AND bigger.

    It’s the main thing IMO that really separates him from that tier, for all the other BS that’s thrown at him.It’s a game of physics and the extreme physical outliers are king.

    First of all KD is not in Jordan’s class I don’t care how much you like him.

  26. dogrufus

    er: First of all KD is not in Jordan’s class I don’t care how much you like him.

    As an overall player, no. As a scorer, it’s at least pretty close.

  27. massive

    Russell Westbrook is to Kevin Durant as Steve Nash was to Amar’e Stoudemire. He has to be the least impressive scoring champion I’ve ever witnessed.

  28. Juany8

    dogrufus: The LeBron/Jordan/Durant class of player is generally simply physically superior, in a way that Melo unfortunately just isn’t.Melo has good size, good athleticism/quickness, and very good strength, but Bron is stronger AND quicker, while Durant is quicker AND bigger.

    It’s the main thing IMO that really separates him from that tier, for all the other BS that’s thrown at him.It’s a game of physics and the extreme physical outliers are king.

    I will actually absolutely agree with this, Melo is awesome but he is unfortunately a tier below Durant and Lebron. Still, if you have to go up against those guys, isn’t Melo pretty much the best you’re gonna do? He can realistically keep up with them defensively, and force them to work hard to defend him. Add chandler in the middle and that’s a pretty good two way combo, just like how dirk had several noticeable flaws but worked perfectly with chandler and Marion on offense and defense.

    If the Knicks keep playing like this I see no reason they can’t be a legitimate challange to anyone. If they finish this game winning, they will have a 6-2 record against the top 3 teams in the league, and Melo missed both if those losses (again assuming this score holds of course, which is not even close to certain)

  29. er

    massive:
    Russell Westbrook is to Kevin Durant as Steve Nash was to Amar’e Stoudemire. He has to be the least impressive scoring champion I’ve ever witnessed.

    Don’t tell dogrufus….

  30. d-mar

    When Durant retires, they should put a plaque with his name and number on the foul line

  31. AnonymousODG

    Juany8: I will actually absolutely agree with this, Melo is awesome but he is unfortunately a tier below Durant and Lebron. Still, if you have to go up against those guys, isn’t Melo pretty much the best you’re gonna do? He can realistically keep up with them defensively, and force them to work hard to defend him. Add chandler in the middle and that’s a pretty good two way combo, just like how dirk had several noticeable flaws but worked perfectly with chandler and Marion on offense and defense.

    Keep some perspective on this. Imagine Melo getting the friendly whistle like Durant or Lebron does. Or imagine Melo feeding off a PG of Westbrook’s or Wade’s caliber. Fuggedaboutit.

  32. dogrufus

    massive:
    Russell Westbrook is to Kevin Durant as Steve Nash was to Amar’e Stoudemire. He has to be the least impressive scoring champion I’ve ever witnessed.

    Really? A guy shooting 50/40/90 while leading the league in scoring for the 4th year in a row on a massive 4% better TS% than Jordan ever managed is the least impressive scoring champion you’ve ever witnessed?

    Tell me more about your exclusive taste in scoring champions

  33. thenamestsam

    Am I crazy for wishing we were playing Miami in the first round? We’re playing such fantastic ball right now, but that critical series is still a full 6 weeks away. Just feels like it’s inevitable that something will go wrong between now and then.

  34. er

    thenamestsam:
    Am I crazy for wishing we were playing Miami in the first round? We’re playing such fantastic ball right now, but that critical series is still a full 6 weeks away. Just feels like it’s inevitable that something will go wrong between now and then.

    Yea u r lol

  35. DRed

    dogrufus: Really?A guy shooting 50/40/90 while leading the league in scoring for the 4th year in a row on a massive 4% better TS% than Jordan ever managed is the least impressive scoring champion you’ve ever witnessed?

    Durant isn’t as good as Jordan, but there’s nothing wrong with that. He’s a pretty amazing player.

  36. thenamestsam

    er: Yea u r lol

    Lol. That’s what I figured. I just feel like we’re goim to have to beat the, to come out of the east and our best chance is ASAP.

  37. DS

    massive:
    Russell Westbrook is to Kevin Durant as Steve Nash was to Amar’e Stoudemire. He has to be the least impressive scoring champion I’ve ever witnessed.

    Call me crazy but I’d take KD over T-Mac or A.I. I’d prob. take KD over T-Mac AND AI.

  38. massive

    dogrufus: Really?A guy shooting 50/40/90 while leading the league in scoring for the 4th year in a row on a massive 4% better TS% than Jordan ever managed is the least impressive scoring champion you’ve ever witnessed?

    Tell me more about your exclusive taste in scoring champions

    Name another scoring champion that has as much catch and shoot in their game as Kevin Durant. Amar’e Stoudemire’s 07-08 season saw him average a league leading .656 TS on a 28% USG, and a lot of his game was catch and finish like Kevin Durant’s. His numbers are impressive, but his play style isn’t.

  39. AnonymousODG

    AnonymousODG: Keep some perspective on this.Imagine Melo getting the friendly whistle like Durant or Lebron does.Or imagine Melo feeding off a PG of Westbrook’s or Wade’s caliber.Fuggedaboutit.

    Or look at it from another perspective. Imagine Durant and Lebron with a hostile whistle. Or imagine Durant feeding off a PG like Fisher or Lebron feeding off of Arroyo. I mean… seriously… fuggedaboutit.

  40. massive

    I’m not saying Kevin Durant isn’t the best scorer in the league, nor am I trying to dispute his numbers. I just don’t find his play style to be impressive.

  41. AnonymousODG

    d-mar:
    Jeez Prigs get your shit together

    Is it Prigs’ fault that Chandler moved into his lane when setting his pick instead of holding his ground properly or that Chandler wasn’t even paying attention to the ball being passed to him?

    Seriously, if Copeland did that back-to-back, we’d be calling for his head.

  42. ruruland

    Durant’s flopping and amazing whistle obviously contribute greatly to inflating his efficiency, but amazing physical specimen with elite skills.

  43. Juany8

    massive: ©

    I see your point, and on offense I think Melo is pretty damn close to those two guys. The real problem is that defensively, Melo can’t block and rebound as well as Durant, and he’s just not close to lebron’s caliber on defense, no offense to Melo.

    I do think you’re taking it a little too far with Durant though, he had a pretty diversified game now compared to a few years ago, and the simple fact is that if you can make jump shots like they’re layups, it’s ok to shoot a lot of jump shots lol. Westbrook definitely doesn’t get enough credit for the team’s success, but the simple truth is that they need both to be real contenders. Lebron is the only player on the league capable of making a team contend practically on his own, nobody else really comes close currently. Several big men have pulled it off in the past, but Dwight Howard is just not that good, in the 90’s he would have been in the Alonzo mourning category of centers, not at the top with Robinson, Hakeem, and Ewing.

  44. thenamestsam

    AnonymousODG: Or look at it from another perspective.Imagine Durant and Lebron with a hostile whistle.Or imagine Durant feeding off a PG like Fisher or Lebron feeding off of Arroyo.I mean… seriously… fuggedaboutit.

    Just to be clear you’re aware

  45. thenamestsam

    thenamestsam: Just to be clear you’re aware

    That lebron used to play in Cleveland and that melo shoots more free throws per 36 than him right?

  46. d-mar

    When the hell is Melo gonna get treated like other stars? That was the biggest BS call ever

  47. dogrufus

    ruruland:
    Durant’s flopping and amazing whistle obviously contribute greatly to inflating his efficiency, but amazing physical specimen with elite skills.

    That’s what the rules reward. Aesthetically I don’t like it any more than you.

  48. Juany8

    I love how jr can bully his way to the rim against anyone. It’s been pretty awesome to see this change, if he also manages to get hot from 3 at some point (like early in the season) things are going to get exciting

  49. ruruland

    dogrufus: That’s what the rules reward.Aesthetically I don’t like it any more than you.

    He gets a special. Don’t give me is shit about everyone gets rewarded equally.

  50. dogrufus

    ruruland: He gets a special. Don’t give me is shit about everyone gets rewarded equally.

    Does James Harden also get a special?

  51. Douglas

    Juany8:
    This is the most fun game I’ve watched this season. This is incredible!

    It’s a nail-biter but lots of fun at the same time! OKC seems to be a great matchup for us.

  52. dogrufus

    Douglas: Yup

    Fooling the refs is a skill. Probably the most important skill for elite scorers. Durant’s “fool the refs” rating is 99.

    It sucks, but that’s how the game seems to work.

  53. dogrufus

    d-mar:
    Really like the way the Knicks are hanging in there against this OKC push

    It’s spelled R-E-F, not O-K-C

  54. dogrufus

    JR’s step back deep two off the dribble vs. Durant was such a bad shot I can’t even forgive him for making it

  55. dogrufus

    dogrufus:
    JR’s step back deep two off the dribble vs. Durant was such a bad shot I can’t even forgive him for making it

    Because he follows it up the next play with a terrible one that he bricks over Perkins… don’t forget the rim JR…

  56. AnonymousODG

    thenamestsam: That lebron used to play in Cleveland and that melo shoots more free throws per 36 than him right?

    First off, Felton vs Antwan Jamison and Mo Williams. Are you kidding me with this right now?

    Second, in 4 of the last 6 years, James averaged more FTs per 36 than Melo. Moreover, taking more FTs does not neccessarily mean you are getting a friendlier whistle. You cannot be a Knicks fan and possibly believe that Melo gets to the line more than most because refs are friendlier to him than others.

    Do your research and think before you type.

  57. Juany8

    Holy shit Carmelo might win the scoring championship after all. Would be awesome to have the scoring champion, 6th man of the year, couple of all star spots… It’s been a fun year.

  58. DS

    Juany8:
    Holy shit Carmelo might win the scoring championship after all. Would be awesome to have the scoring champion, 6th man of the year, couple of all star spots… It’s been a fun year.

    Coach of the year…

  59. ruruland

    dogrufus:
    Man, Durant just drives into traffic and flails.

    He gets these calls every game. Like consistently can drive into traffic with his super high dribble and get a call 80 percent of the time. It’s terrible for the game.

  60. Douglas

    dogrufus: Fooling the refs is a skill.Probably the most important skill for elite scorers.Durant’s “fool the refs” rating is 99.

    It sucks, but that’s how the game seems to work.

    Body type and build is also part of it. Melo gets whacked and bumped; he doesn’t budge an inch and guys bounce off of him because he’s a brick shithouse. Durant and Harden are more slight of build and flail around on contact so many willow trees.

  61. ruruland

    AnonymousODG: First off, Felton vs Antwan Jamison and Mo Williams.Are you kidding me with this right now?

    Second, in 4 of the last 6 years, James averaged more FTs per 36 than Melo.Moreover, taking more FTs does not neccessarily mean you are getting a friendlier whistle.You cannot be a Knicks fan and possibly believe that Melo gets to the line more than most because refs are friendlier to him than others.

    Do your research and think before you type.

    Right. ft rate is more important anyway and Lebron has always had higher ft rate despite far more breakaway FG attempts.

  62. thenamestsam

    AnonymousODG: First off, Felton vs Antwan Jamison and Mo Williams.Are you kidding me with this right now?

    Second, in 4 of the last 6 years, James averaged more FTs per 36 than Melo.Moreover, taking more FTs does not neccessarily mean you are getting a friendlier whistle.You cannot be a Knicks fan and possibly believe that Melo gets to the line more than most because refs are friendlier to him than others.

    Do your research and think before you type.

    Lol. So you think that lebron’s Cleveland supporting cast was better than this current Knicks supporting cast? I mean…I’m not sure what to say to that. You said Mo Williams like you think he’s something other than the definition of mediocrity.

    And I think Melo gets a tough go from the refs. I’m also self aware enough to realize that literally every teams fans think they’re getting the shaft. If melo really got a significantly worse whistle than lebron I think he’d shoot fewer free throws more often than 4 out of 6 years.

  63. ruruland

    thenamestsam: Lol. So you think that lebron’s Cleveland supporting cast was better than this current Knicks supporting cast? I mean…I’m not sure what to say to that. You said Mo Williams like you think he’s something other than the definition of mediocrity.

    And I think Melo gets a tough go from the refs. I’m also self aware enough to realize that literally every teams fans think they’re getting the shaft. If melo really got a significantly worse whistle than lebron I think he’d shoot fewer free throws more often than 4 out of 6 years.

    Ft rate

  64. d-mar

    Maybe Melo should watch tapes of Pierce, and learn how to flail his arms and scream whenever he drives to the basket

  65. thenamestsam

    ruruland: Ft rate

    I actually think ft rate is the wrong stat in this case and here’s why. The idea behind ft rate is to use shots basically as a proxy for how involved someone is in the offense. Obviously lebron and melo will both shoot more fts than a guy who doesn’t have the ball much. But while lebron doesn’t shoot as much as melo he’s obviously just as involved on the offensive end. Ft rate is part of the story but its not the be all and end all.

  66. mr.JayP

    d-mar:
    Maybe Melo should watch tapes of Pierce, and learn how to flail his arms and scream whenever he drives to the basket

    if melo would argue less with the refs. he would probably get more calls. Flailing the arms and screaming would just give it a better touch…lol

  67. DS

    We’re a bunch of hypocrites. Gallo had the cheapest looking arm flail to draw fouls and we all loved it.

  68. johnlocke

    Why is JR taking so many damned jumpshots? What happened to the drive. OKC gets every call btw

  69. massive

    DS:
    We’re a bunch of hypocrites.Gallo had the cheapest looking arm flail to draw fouls and we all loved it.

    LOL. Great point, but I do recall some people hating him for his hair and flopping.

  70. ruruland

    thenamestsam: I actually think ft rate is the wrong stat in this case and here’s why. The idea behind ft rate is to use shots basically as a proxy for how involved someone is in the offense. Obviously lebron and melo will both shoot more fts than a guy who doesn’t have the ball much. But while lebron doesn’t shoot as much as melo he’s obviously just as involved on the offensive end. Ft rate is part of the story but its not the be all and end all.

    Ft rate is the ratio of shot attempts to field goal attempts. Off ball calls amount to small percentage of ft, if that’s what you’re referring to.

    Melo gets a bad whistle compared to other scorers who have as high of paint attempts that Melo does.

    The question isn’t if Melo gets a bad whistle, it’s why.

  71. DS

    johnlocke:
    Why is JR taking so many damned jumpshots? What happened to the drive. OKC gets every call btw

    J.R.’s got 17 points on 14 FGA. Not so bad. One or two bad attempts this qtr.

  72. AnonymousODG

    thenamestsam: Lol. So you think that lebron’s Cleveland supporting cast was better than this current Knicks supporting cast? I mean…I’m not sure what to say to that. You said Mo Williams like you think he’s something other than the definition of mediocrity.

    And I think Melo gets a tough go from the refs. I’m also self aware enough to realize that literally every teams fans think they’re getting the shaft. If melo really got a significantly worse whistle than lebron I think he’d shoot fewer free throws more often than 4 out of 6 years.

    Don’t move the goalposts. We were talking specifically about PGs and friendly whistles. So really… stow the supporting cast argument. ESPECIALLY when you look at the team Lebron ended up surrounding himself with. That you think “Old Man and the Sea” Billups and “Extra Cripsy KFC Bucket” Felton somehow is better than Dwayne Wade, Antwan Jamison and Mo Williams is farcical.

    Never mind how your own FT per 36 reference completely blew up in your face. If you think that any Lebron or Durant fan have EVER complained that refs never give them respect I can only offer you a bridge in Brooklyn to sell. Stop wasting my time.

  73. ruruland

    mr.JayP: if melo would argue less with the refs. he would probably get more calls. Flailing the arms and screaming would just give it a better touch…lol

    Some guys grow up where flopping will leave you in the hospital.

  74. dogrufus

    ruruland: He’s about to set record for a guard ft rate.

    Exactly. He’s already the best guard of all time at a very significant facet of offense. It’s a gay facet, but significant nonetheless.

    It’s why IMO he projects to be a significantly better player than Melo.

  75. AnonymousODG

    They have been eating up Chandler on the inside. It’s just so painful to watch. He is so bad right now.

  76. DS

    I hate these loud buildings, it makes you feel like the Knicks are losing control much more than they really are. Reminds me of Market Sq. in the 90’s.

  77. johnlocke

    Hint Felton: force that PG that keeps blowing by you to take a jump shot. Back off!

  78. thenamestsam

    AnonymousODG: Don’t move the goalposts.We were talking specifically about PGs and friendly whistles.So really… stow the supporting cast argument.ESPECIALLY when you look at the team Lebron ended up surrounding himself with.That you think “Old Man and the Sea” Billups and “Extra Cripsy KFC Bucket” Felton somehow is better than Dwayne Wade, Antwan Jamison and Mo Williams is farcical.

    Never mind how your own FT per 36 reference completely blew up in your face.If you think that any Lebron or Durant fan have EVER complained that refs never give them respect I can only offer you a bridge in Brooklyn to sell.Stop wasting my time.

    There’s two totally different points here but okay. Interesting that you say it’s only about point guards and somehow wade and Jamison end up in there anyway. What positions do they play?

    Go look at heat fans reactions to the Bulls game that stopped the streak and get back to me.

    We’re talking hoops and we all root for the same team. There’s no need for such a confrontational negative tone.

  79. johnlocke

    It’s Feltons fault…not chandlers

    AnonymousODG:
    They have been eating up Chandler on the inside.It’s just so painful to watch.He is so bad right now.

  80. Douglas

    dogrufus: It’s a gay facet, but significant nonetheless.

    If it’s not homosexual then don’t call it gay, please. Thank you.

  81. BigBlueAL

    This has been a helluva fun game to watch. Dont know if its mainly because of great offense or horrible defense lol.

  82. BigBlueAL

    All these layups Melo is missing but putting back in he is getting drilled but unlike KD he doesnt fall to the floor and act like he got killed he actually tries to score and putback his own miss.

  83. er

    Jesus the reason Melo doesn’t have the best efficiency is cuz he gets no calls at the rim

  84. d-mar

    Still waiting for the first Melo FT, but I guess he never goes to the basket, so that’s easily explainable

  85. massive

    er:
    Jesus the reason Melo doesn’t have the best efficiency is cuz he gets no calls at the rim

    This.

  86. johnlocke

    JR motherfucking Smith ..I love hate you so much. And my head hurts from that scream!!

  87. johnlocke

    Don’t they realize that by fouling Melo they are hurting Durants scoring championship??

  88. thenamestsam

    Melo made a big statement about who should finish 2nd in the MVP. A big big statement.

  89. d-mar

    12 in a row baby! (But really, they haven’t beaten any good teams, so it doesn’t mean anything)

  90. Juany8

    Knicks are undefeated against the top 3 teams in the league with Melo in the lineup. They’ve had 2 of the best stretches of the season for any team after this win. And yet I’m still terrfiied about potential injuries lol

  91. Douglas

    That Melo tip-in sucked the oxygen out of the building. It’s silent as a tomb in OKC.

  92. johnlocke

    Yeh agreed. And OKC doesnt care about home court advantage, plus there was a hurricane, oh wait…

    d-mar:
    12 in a row baby! (But really, they haven’t beaten any good teams, so it doesn’t mean anything)

  93. mr.JayP

    what a facken game. here i thought i would be able to do some hw and watch the game. might eyes were glued to the tv. awesome awesome game.

  94. d-mar

    I really wish Charles Effin’ Barkley was covering this game, would love to hear him trash them now

  95. Z-man

    That was a nice way to spend a Sunday afternoon in April!

    Melo did something to his shoulder, hopefully it’s only a tweak. Sensational ORebounding!

  96. Ricky_J

    “1/14 @ Oklahoma City: The Knicks show that light blue and light orange are for $@&!$%. Knicks 121, Seattle Supersonics 115 (7-4)”
    -j Cavan 12/2011

  97. kram

    waiting for barkely to say it doesn’t count much because collison wasn’t in down the stretch…

  98. mr.JayP

    llcoolbp:
    Westbrook is such a superior athletic talent. I definitely had more fear when he had the ball in his hands, over Durant.

    correct. superior athlete. not ball player.

    Westbrook biggest problem is his alter-ego Westbrick. he can shoot you out of a game easily.

  99. BigBlueAL

    Melo’s 36 pts on 15 for 29 shooting along with 12 rebs and 0 to’s are completely negated by his 0 asts and 0 stls.

  100. jon abbey

    wow, what a win. Jason Kidd’s keeping us in the game early shouldn’t be overlooked, Copeland too of course. and some of the shots JR is hitting now are just ridiculous, that one after he was called for the offensive foul and then the three late off the punch out by Felton, WOW.

    people really need to stop getting credit for offensive boards off their own misses, it makes the box score even more misleading. Melo had a Moses Malone game on the o-boards. :)

  101. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    llcoolbp:
    Westbrook is such a superior athletic talent. I definitely had more fear when he had the ball in his hands, over Durant.

    Interesting observation.

  102. BigBlueAL

    jon abbey:
    wow, what a win. Jason Kidd’s keeping us in the game early shouldn’t be overlooked, Copeland too of course. and some of the shots JR is hitting now are just ridiculous, that one after he was called for the offensive foul and then the three late off the punch out by Felton, WOW.

    people really need to stop getting credit for offensive boards off their own misses, it makes the box score even more misleading. Melo had a Moses Malone game on the o-boards. :)

    If the refs would do their jobs correctly and call fouls on Melo’s initial layup attempts he wouldnt be getting all those offensive rebs.

  103. BigBlueAL

    llcoolbp:
    Westbrook is such a superior athletic talent. I definitely had more fear when he had the ball in his hands, over Durant.

    I actually felt relieved when the ball was in Westbrook’s hands and not Durant’s.

  104. massive

    The Thunder played Kevin Durant 45 minutes and 13 seconds tonight and took 15 free throws. Carmelo Anthony played 36 minutes and 38 seconds, and he took 4 free throws. Melo outscores Durant by 9 and the Knicks win the game in Oklahoma City. That’s honestly amazing to me.

  105. llcoolbp

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Interesting observation.

    Did I watch a different 2nd half from you guys. Westbrook was getting to the rim at will. Sure his shot selection sucks some times. But he single handedly brought okc back into the game. I don’t need advanced stats to tell me that.

  106. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    llcoolbp: Did I watch a different 2nd half from you guys. Westbrook was getting to the rim at will. Sure his shot selection sucks some times. But he single handedly brought okc back into the game. I don’t need advanced stats to tell me that.

    No, no. I’m just saying it’s interesting that you felt that way when Westbrook had the ball. Maybe in this game he was objectively better than Durant, but it’s just interesting to me the way that you can see something and it can override the fact that Durant is a much more efficient shooter than Westbrook is.

  107. yellowboy90

    It was interesting to see Durant get taken away when Melo switched on him in the 4th and Melo do his thing once Durant switched on him. I was hoping the Knicks would be able to make that switch and take away Durant post ups which was hurting the Knicks when he passed out the double. Basically it switched. Melo had to be doubled to help Durant and the ball swung. If JR made his open 3s the game would not have been as close as it was.

  108. JK47

    That was a very disciplined offensive performance against a really good defensive team. OKC is 2nd in the league in eFG% allowed at .468, and the Knicks shredded them to the tune of .575. The Knicks had only 6 turnovers in the whole game and I believe none at all in the 4th quarter.

  109. jon abbey

    here is the stat of the year:

    MIA/OKC/SA are 100-11 against the rest of the league at home (including against each other), 0-4 against NY.

  110. DRed

    thenoblefacehumper: Now that you’re actually here, can you tell us why this streak means nothing and how we would’ve won by even more today if Brewer had all of Melo’s minutes?

    That’s not an argument anyone woud make. Melo was fucking awesome again today

  111. JK47

    This is the kind of game the Knicks are going to have to play to do well in the playoffs: their offense is simply going to have to be insane. The Knicks defense was pretty bad today– OKC shot .577 from the floor, put up an eye-popping .635 eFG%, yet they still lost because of NYK’s microscopic turnover rate and offensive rebounding. The Knicks took 15 more FGA than the Thunder and shot 17 more three-pointers.

  112. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    thenoblefacehumper: Now that you’re actually here, can you tell us why this streak means nothing and how we would’ve won by even more today if Brewer had all of Melo’s minutes?

    Why would I do either of those things? Carmelo did things that a good basketball player does: he scored fairly efficiently (although ~1.17 PPS is not particularly good at all, which is a quick mental estimate of his shooting efficiency) and he collected a lot of rebounds. He didn’t turn the ball over at all, which is very important. He had an excellent game. But the flip-side to that coin is that if Carmelo had a high PoP (the per-game equivalent of WP48) in this game, which is probably true (although not as high as Kidd’s, probably), that means that he’s also had shitty PoP games during the course of this season. Are you willing to dismiss the games where Carmelo scores 12 points on 24 FGA, like he did against the lowly Raptors on Feb. 13? The Knicks lost that game, but not by very much (meaning his teammates played well), so if you’re going to attribute this big win to Carmelo, you should be just as apt to attribute that loss to him. Are you doing that?

    And what does any streak mean? It either means something significant happened before the streak began (i.e. addition of an excellent player, like Chris Andersen joining the Heat, or some other tangible factor being changed) or that you’re assigning value to an arbitrary point so that you can explain an occurrence you believed to have happened (that the last 11 games are a “streak,” whatever that means).

    My opinion? Bad teams cannot and do not win eleven games in a row. Good teams can and do lose by thirty points. The takeaway, for me, is that the Heat, Nuggets, and Knicks are all really good teams, but that means fuck-all when the playoffs start, which we saw last year when the Spurs took a twenty-gamer into the WCF.

  113. flossy

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Why would I do either of those things? Carmelo did things that a good basketball player does: he scored fairly efficiently (although ~1.17 PPS is not particularly good at all, which is a quick mental estimate of his shooting efficiency) and he collected a lot of rebounds. He didn’t turn the ball over at all, which is very important. He had an excellent game. But the flip-side to that coin is that if Carmelo had a high PoP (the per-game equivalent of WP48) in this game, which is probably true (although not as high as Kidd’s, probably), that means that he’s also had shitty PoP games during the course of this season. Are you willing to dismiss the games where Carmelo scores 12 points on 24 FGA, like he did against the lowly Raptors on Feb. 13? The Knicks lost that game, but not by very much (meaning his teammates played well), so if you’re going to attribute this big win to Carmelo, you should be just as apt to attribute that loss to him. Are you doing that?

    And what does any streak mean? It either means something significant happened before the streak began (i.e. addition of an excellent player, like Chris Andersen joining the Heat, or some other tangible factor being changed) or that you’re assigning value to an arbitrary point so that you can explain an occurrence you believed to have happened (that the last 11 games are a “streak,” whatever that means).

    My opinion? Bad teams cannot and do not win eleven games in a row. Good teams can and do lose by thirty points. The takeaway, for me, is that the Heat, Nuggets, and Knicks are all really good teams, but that means fuck-all when the playoffs start, which we saw last year when the Spurs took a twenty-gamer into the WCF.

    You are such a fucking wet blanket, it’s unbelievable.

  114. AnonymousODG

    thenamestsam: There’s two totally different points here but okay. Interesting that you say it’s only about point guards and somehow wade and Jamison end up in there anyway. What positions do they play?

    Go look at heat fans reactions to the Bulls game that stopped the streak and get back to me.

    We’re talking hoops and we all root for the same team. There’s no need for such a confrontational negative tone.

    Herp derp. Consider foot officially lodged in my mouth.

    Heat fans are bandwagon-y little b1tches. I love Miami itself, but unless you’ve got a Mourning/Hardaway jersey, you’ve got no consideration from me whatsoever.

    True dat.

    yellowboy90:
    It was interesting to see Durant get taken away when Melo switched on him in the 4th and Melo do his thing once Durant switched on him. I was hoping the Knicks would be able to make that switch and take away Durant post ups which was hurting the Knicks when he passed out the double. Basically it switched. Melo had to be doubled to help Durant and the ball swung. If JR made his open 3s the game would not have been as close as it was.

    Melo’s defense deserves some credit. Durant having to play 45+ minutes was definitely a big factor as well. He just seemed to run out of gas. He didn’t score in the last 7 minutes of the game (didn’t matter too much as Westbrook wet on a tear). Suffice to say, the team came up big covering for Melo when he sat early (especially Kidd and Copeland) and down the stretch.

    Chandler once again somehow manages to redeem himself after a terrible first three quarters of play — 8 pts, 2 rebs, 1 to (contributed to 2 more) — with a concerted effort in the fourth.

  115. AnonymousODG

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: And what does any streak mean? It either means something significant happened before the streak began (i.e. addition of an excellent player, like Chris Andersen joining the Heat, or some other tangible factor being changed) or that you’re assigning value to an arbitrary point so that you can explain an occurrence you believed to have happened (that the last 11 games are a “streak,” whatever that means).

    In the Knicks’ case, the streak means that Carmelo and JR consistently carried a team rife with injuries with their offense at levels that few thought sustainable. And role players like KMart (and to a lesser extent Kidd and Prigs) stepped up big by commanding our defensive efforts. Consider also how poor our first quarters were before this streak (this was the only game we were outscored and it was just by 1).

    In other words, the team is playing better, harder, smarter, more efficiently, more completely, all while being significantly undermanned in the frontcourt. And these injuries didn’t happen all at once… it was like every few games, somebody else went down. And the Knicks didn’t let that dampen their efforts. That’s an achievement.

    This improved team play, intensity and responsibility can hardly be deemed an “arbitrary point.” At this point in the year, it means everything. At the very least, it’s meaningful.

  116. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Why would I do either of those things? Carmelo did things that a good basketball player does: he scored fairly efficiently (although ~1.17 PPS is not particularly good at all, which is a quick mental estimate of his shooting efficiency) and he collected a lot of rebounds. He didn’t turn the ball over at all, which is very important. He had an excellent game. But the flip-side to that coin is that if Carmelo had a high PoP (the per-game equivalent of WP48) in this game, which is probably true (although not as high as Kidd’s, probably), that means that he’s also had shitty PoP games during the course of this season. Are you willing to dismiss the games where Carmelo scores 12 points on 24 FGA, like he did against the lowly Raptors on Feb. 13? The Knicks lost that game, but not by very much (meaning his teammates played well), so if you’re going to attribute this big win to Carmelo, you should be just as apt to attribute that loss to him. Are you doing that?

    Why aren’t you willing to stand behind WP when it tells us Melo is the Knicks worst regular rotation player (-2.2 pop per 48)?

    Why do you hide when we ask you to confirm that you stand by WP when it tells us that in 1600 fewer minutes, Ronnie fucking Brewer has individually “produced” more wins than Carmelo Anthony, and is actually FIVE TIMES his superior?

    Answer: You’re a coward.

  117. BigBlueAL

    To THCJ’s point, he is absolutely correct that while Melo was great today the Knicks won this game because of some equally great play by many of his teammates.

    Ive been mocking his statement lately he made the other day about mentioning Melo’s lack of assists and steals this season as if that negates his positives. Melo obviously is the single most polarized player on this site and to me gets way too much blame when the team loses (although he has had some stinkers this season but really who doesnt except nowadays LeBron nowadays). I dont think he gets too much praise when the team wins though, although there have been a few games where it did seem like he single-handedly carried them to victory. The Knicks have won several games where Melo shot pretty horrible too (some during this streak).

    At this point its just great to be watching a total team effort where almost every player who plays that day/night is contributing positively. We couldnt be feeling any better about this team entering the playoffs and thats a great feeling to have and one we havent felt in a long time.

  118. thenoblefacehumper

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Why would I do either of those things? Carmelo did things that a good basketball player does: he scored fairly efficiently (although ~1.17 PPS is not particularly good at all, which is a quick mental estimate of his shooting efficiency) and he collected a lot of rebounds. He didn’t turn the ball over at all, which is very important. He had an excellent game. But the flip-side to that coin is that if Carmelo had a high PoP (the per-game equivalent of WP48) in this game, which is probably true (although not as high as Kidd’s, probably), that means that he’s also had shitty PoP games during the course of this season. Are you willing to dismiss the games where Carmelo scores 12 points on 24 FGA, like he did against the lowly Raptors on Feb. 13? The Knicks lost that game, but not by very much (meaning his teammates played well), so if you’re going to attribute this big win to Carmelo, you should be just as apt to attribute that loss to him. Are you doing that?

    And what does any streak mean? It either means something significant happened before the streak began (i.e. addition of an excellent player, like Chris Andersen joining the Heat, or some other tangible factor being changed) or that you’re assigning value to an arbitrary point so that you can explain an occurrence you believed to have happened (that the last 11 games are a “streak,” whatever that means).

    My opinion? Bad teams cannot and do not win eleven games in a row. Good teams can and do lose by thirty points. The takeaway, for me, is that the Heat, Nuggets, and Knicks are all really good teams, but that means fuck-all when the playoffs start, which we saw last year when the Spurs took a twenty-gamer into the WCF.

    Well it’s worth noting that Amar’e scored 10 on 13 shots that Toronto game, but I digress. Yes, ‘Melo’s play likely lost them that…

  119. BigBlueAL

    Interesting, just read KG is playing tonight (along with Pierce). Celtics about to make a push for the 6th seed??

  120. thenoblefacehumper

    Toronto game. Are you saying that all of their losses are his fault? I’m not quite sure what your point is in bringing up a random bad night from him.

  121. ruruland

    WP tells us that Chandler is more than 10 times more valuable than Anthony.

    MORE THAN AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE MORE VALUABLE!!!

  122. ruruland

    BigBlueAL:
    Interesting, just read KG is playing tonight (along with Pierce).Celtics about to make a push for the 6th seed??

    Avoiding the 8th seed.

  123. ruruland

    thenoblefacehumper: Well it’s worth noting that Amar’e scored 10 on 13 shots that Toronto game, but I digress. Yes, ‘Melo’s play likely lost them that…

    That was also the game in which Melo re-aggravated the knee.

  124. DRed

    thenoblefacehumper:
    Toronto game. Are you saying that all of their losses are his fault? I’m not quite sure what your point is in bringing up a random bad night from him.

    The point is that when you’re trying to decide how valuable Carmelo is you have to remember his bad games as well. Is that realy hard for anyone but ruru to grasp?

  125. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    ruruland: Answer: You’re a coward.

    Li’l bits like this makes me feel like things between you and Mel-Mel aren’t as good as they should be. Couples’ counseling is nothing to be ashamed of, my friend. You two need to talk things out.

  126. AnonymousODG

    BigBlueAL:
    Interesting, just read KG is playing tonight (along with Pierce).Celtics about to make a push for the 6th seed??

    I wish they would. But there’s almost no chance that’ll happen. IND lucks out supremely by drawing ATL in the first round. Stupid ATL. At best, they’d take one meaningless game against em at home (fingers crossed for otherwise).

  127. BigBlueAL

    AnonymousODG: I wish they would.But there’s almost no chance that’ll happen.IND lucks out supremely by drawing ATL in the first round.Stupid ATL. At best, they’d take one meaningless game against em at home (fingers crossed for otherwise).

    They are only 1 back of Atlanta in the loss column and I believe they have the tie-breaker vs them.

  128. BigBlueAL

    ruruland: Avoiding the 8th seed.

    They are equal distance from the 8th and 6th seed, 2 games. Difference is they have 2 less losses than Milwaukee but have only 1 more loss than Atlanta.

    I mean I dont care if the Knicks play the Celtics in the 1st round, I dont fear them like many here still do. But hell yeah Id much rather play Atlanta than Boston.

  129. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Li’l bits like this makes me feel like things between you and Mel-Mel aren’t as good as they should be. Couples’ counseling is nothing to be ashamed of, my friend. You two need to talk things out.

    That’s it?

    Still hiding.

  130. ruruland

    BigBlueAL: They are equal distance from the 8th and 6th seed, 2 games.Difference is they have 2 less losses than Milwaukee but have only 1 more loss than Atlanta.

    I mean I dont care if the Knicks play the Celtics in the 1st round, I dont fear them like many here still do.But hell yeah Id much rather play Atlanta than Boston.

    Or the Bucks. All three would be fun. Taking out Celtics in 5 would be sweet though.

  131. BigBlueAL

    ruruland: Or the Bucks. All three would be fun. Taking out Celtics in 5 would be sweet though.

    Yeah Bucks too obviously but I cant imagine them getting out of the 8th seed.

  132. danvt

    DRed: The point is that when you’re trying to decide how valuable Carmelo is you have to remember his bad games as well. Is that realy hard for anyone but ruru to grasp?

    Right now it’s not about anything but momentum for the team and emotion for the fan. NYK is trying to will themselves to victory and everyone is starting to believe. If we were giving awards based on who has been the most efficient team we should just let MIA go to the finals in the east. It’s time for not the best team to step up and reward the best fans in the world!

  133. ruruland

    DRed: The point is that when you’re trying to decide how valuable Carmelo is you have to remember his bad games as well. Is that realy hard for anyone but ruru to grasp?

    Pay attention.

  134. jon abbey

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: (although ~1.17 PPS is not particularly good at all, which is a quick mental estimate of his shooting efficiency)

    this number is so meaningless in a game where probably 4-5 of those misses were immediately followed by his own makes. he shouldn’t get credit for the rebounds and he shouldn’t be charged with the misses, both skew the reality of what happened. if a possession ends in a basket, whether Melo was 1-1 or 1-4 with 3 offensive boards, it’s an identical outcome that looks wildly different in a box score.

    so, yeah, citing PPS for Melo today is pretty silly.

  135. jon abbey

    just went through the play by play, 5 of Melo’s misses were meaningless, as he got the immediate rebound and put back, so change his 15-29 with 12 boards to 15-24 with 8 boards, and his 50%+ efficiency remains intact.

  136. thenoblefacehumper

    DRed: The point is that when you’re trying to decide how valuable Carmelo is you have to remember his bad games as well. Is that realy hard for anyone but ruru to grasp?

    I acknowledged that in that Toronto game, ‘Melo’s bad play likely lost them the game. In order to think that ‘Melo is basically a net negative, as WP says he is, you pretty much have to think he’s responsible for none of our 50 wins (!) and all 26 of our losses. That’s hard for me to grasp.

  137. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    ruruland:
    WP tells us that Chandler is more than 10 times more valuable than Anthony.

    MORE THAN AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE MORE VALUABLE!!!

    You don’t seem to understand how marginal value works. The difference between a .300 WP48 player and a .100 WP48 player might be ten points of TS%. So while Player A might score .25 more points per shot used, he would produce three times the number of wins that Player B does. Are you trolling me?

  138. DRed

    jon abbey: this number is so meaningless in a game where probably 4-5 of those misses were immediately followed by his own makes. he shouldn’t get credit for the rebounds and he shouldn’t be charged with the misses, both skew the reality of what happened. if a possession ends in a basket, whether Melo was 1-1 or 1-4 with 3 offensive boards, it’s an identical outcome that looks wildly different in a box score.
    so, yeah, citing PPS for Melo today is pretty silly.

    But Melo in reality missed those shots and then got those rebounds. How does accurately describing what happened skew reality?

  139. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    thenoblefacehumper: I acknowledged that in that Toronto game, ‘Melo’s bad play likely lost them the game. In order to think that ‘Melo is basically a net negative, as WP says he is, you pretty much have to think he’s responsible for none of our 50 wins (!) and all 26 of our losses. That’s hard for me to grasp.

    You have a lot of associations with Carmelo Anthony that might cloud your judgment. Or Wins Produced is totally wrong (and I don’t think he should be categorized as a strict PF, so I don’t think he’s contributed 0 net wins). Whatever you trust more.

  140. jon abbey

    DRed: The point is that when you’re trying to decide how valuable Carmelo is you have to remember his bad games as well. Is that realy hard for anyone but ruru to grasp?

    what would be awesome is if people recognized and then remembered Chandler’s bad games also when amusingly (still!) believing he is the best player on this team. Chandler’s had way more dud games than Melo this year, not even a comparison anymore.

  141. jon abbey

    DRed: But Melo in reality missed those shots and then got those rebounds. How does accurately describing what happened skew reality?

    because people just cite the PPS and the FG% and those are deceptive. if you miss 20 times on one possession and get 20 boards and an eventual putback, it’s the same as hitting the shot to begin with. it’s almost part of the initial shot, he is right at the rim, he knows where the ball will go better than anyone else, and it’s an identical outcome.

  142. ruruland

    Anthony is now 12-1 vs Durant, averaging 30/7/3.5 50/38/85 on a little less than 8 fta per.

    I’m sure the ’11 Nuggets would have done just the same or worse with Anthony when they faced the Thunder in the playoffs, losing in five games, and posting an offensive efficiency of 103.96 for the series after a league best 112.3 offensive efficiency during the regular season…. being the half-court juggernaut they were without Anthony (and Billups) that season (and since).

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=anthoca01&p2=duranke01

    BTW, Denver beat OKC the one time they faced him with Melo, 112-107 with Melo scoring 35 points with 0 turnovers.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201101190DEN.html

    The Nuggets finished that season 1-7 against the Thunder without Melo. ihttp://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201101190DEN.html

    Its most efficient game offensive game was with Melo in the lineup.

    Durant scored 44 in the game Melo missed in December, and put up 41 twice in the first round that year. (Maybe there is something about being forced to play both ways).

  143. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: You don’t seem to understand how marginal value works. The difference between a .300 WP48 player and a .100 WP48 player might be ten points of TS%. So while Player A might score .25 more points per shot used, he would produce three times the number of wins that Player B does. Are you trolling me?

    I understand that. It would make no sense for you to respond that way because there was nothing in the post I made that would indicate I don’t understand how marginal value works.

    To put it into terms YOU would understand, Chandler has produced nearly 12 more wins than Anthony (Anthony has produced far fewer than the average player playing his minutes would) in fewer minutes.

    I’ll ask you again. Very simple question and there should be no equivocation, hedging, wavering or obfuscating when you answer it IF YOU BELIEVE WP is a sound metric:

    Do you believe that in 1600 fewer minutes Ronnie Brewer has produced more wins than Carmelo Anthony?

  144. lavor postell

    Wow, for me that’s the best win of the season. Winning by 20 in Miami without Melo was awesome, but to dissect OKC’s defense like we did all night was just something else. If JR hits half of his literally wide open, barely contested threes this isn’t even a contest down the stretch. The Knicks have posted amazing offensive efficiency against Miami, OKC and San Antonio this season that I would venture to guess no other team can even touch. You have to think in a series against Miami the Knicks’ odds are much higher than what they’ll be going for.

    The Knicks odds to win the East is 15/1 and 40/1 to win it all. They have worse odds to win the title than Miami, OKC, the corpse of San Antonio, Memphis, Indiana, Denver and the Clippers. They have the same odds as the Rose-less Bulls and the shitshow better known as the Lakers.

  145. ruruland

    lavor postell:
    Wow, for me that’s the best win of the season.Winning by 20 in Miami without Melo was awesome, but to dissect OKC’s defense like we did all night was just something else.If JR hits half of his literally wide open, barely contested threes this isn’t even a contest down the stretch.The Knicks have posted amazing offensive efficiency against Miami, OKC and San Antonio this season that I would venture to guess no other team can even touch.You have to think in a series against Miami the Knicks’ odds are much higher than what they’ll be going for.

    The Knicks odds to win the East is 15/1 and 40/1 to win it all.They have worse odds to win the title than Miami, OKC, the corpse of San Antonio, Memphis, Indiana, Denver and the Clippers.They have the same odds as the Rose-less Bulls and the shitshow better known as the Lakers.

    Sounds like late May in Vegas to me.

  146. johnno

    Imagine how “efficient” Melo would suddenly become if he got anywhere close to the friendly whistle that Durant gets. If he got just a single more foul call per game, his shooting percentage would jump 2 percent (because one of his missed shots would no longer count as an attempt) and his scoring average would jump 1.6 points (2 foul shots at 80%). He would look significantly better statistically, but he would be the exact same player he is now. What’s the point? Statistics don’t always tell the whole story. On another note, I think that it’s hilarious that ESPN chooses today to run an article explaining why Blake Griffin is a better player than Melo…

  147. DRed

    jon abbey: because people just cite the PPS and the FG% and those are deceptive. if you miss 20 times on one possession and get 20 boards and an eventual putback, it’s the same as hitting the shot to begin with. it’s almost part of the initial shot, he is right at the rim, he knows where the ball will go better than anyone else, and it’s an identical outcome.

    Yes, the outcome is the same, but your method doesn’t tell us how the outcome was reached. Melo didn’t have a great game shooting, but he made upfor it with a fantastic performance on the offensive glass. What’s wrong with that?

  148. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    johnno:
    Imagine how “efficient” Melo would suddenly become if he got anywhere close to the friendly whistle that Durant gets.If he got just a single more foul call per game, his shooting percentage would jump 2 percent (because one of his missed shots would no longer count as an attempt) and his scoring average would jump 1.6 points (2 foul shots at 80%).He would look significantly better statistically, but he would be the exact same player he is now.What’s the point?Statistics don’t always tell the whole story. On another note, I think that it’s hilarious that ESPN chooses today to run an article explaining why Blake Griffin is a better player than Melo…

    Show me some evidence that Durant gets a friendlier whistle than Carmelo. Not today’s game. Maybe if Durant played more like Carmelo he would get fewer foul shots. I’m not saying that you’re wrong; I’m just saying that your argument is based on an assumption that I see no warrant for. You’re taking the causal agency out of Carmelo’s hands and putting it on the refs. I don’t know if we should do that without seeing evidence.

    And re: jon abbey saying that 20 missed shots with 20 offensive rebounds followed by a FGM is equal to one shot that went in… duuuuuuuuuude.

  149. Frank

    Magic number for #2 seed is 4 now. Would be amazing if we could lock that up before the Indiana game. That will be a bruising game, and it would really help if we could start resting guys. We have 3 games between now and then and Indy has just 2- but one against brooklyn- and Brooklyn has only a one game lead in loss column compared with the Bulls- so Brooklyn will be playing full out that game.

    ruruland:

    I’ll ask you again. Very simple question and there should be no equivocation, hedging, wavering or obfuscating when you answer it IF YOU BELIEVE WP is a sound metric:

    Do you believe that in 1600 fewer minutes Ronnie Brewer has produced more wins than Carmelo Anthony?

    You will never get a straight answer to that question from the Berri-ites. Other than maybe how they don’t need to explain outliers to you, even though its irrelevant.

  150. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Show me some evidence that Durant gets a friendlier whistle than Carmelo. Not today’s game. Maybe if Durant played more like Carmelo he would get fewer foul shots. I’m not saying that you’re wrong; I’m just saying that your argument is based on an assumption that I see no warrant for. You’re taking the causal agency out of Carmelo’s hands and putting it on the refs. I don’t know if we should do that without seeing evidence.

    And re: jon abbey saying that 20 missed shots with 20 offensive rebounds followed by a FGM is equal to one shot that went in… duuuuuuuuuude.

    I’d love to put up a video showing all of Melo’s shots that are contested either in the paint or near the rim, and all of Durant’s. Also,compare all of Melo’s ball entry situations with Durants.

    You could easily demonstrate that players are allowed to get away with FAR more contact on Melo in all three scenarios.

    SMelo averages 6.2 shots per game at the rim, Durant 4.4

    Durant has a ft rate of 53%. Melo: 36%

    ADurant has a much higher percentage of uncontested shots at the rim in transition.

    I’m not saying those are bad, it simply further skews the discrepancy.

    And answer the damn question.

  151. Frank

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Show me some evidence that Durant gets a friendlier whistle than Carmelo. Not today’s game. Maybe if Durant played more like Carmelo he would get fewer foul shots. I’m not saying that you’re wrong; I’m just saying that your argument is based on an assumption that I see no warrant for. You’re taking the causal agency out of Carmelo’s hands and putting it on the refs. I don’t know if we should do that without seeing evidence.

    That’s a cop out answer IMHO. You know very well there’s no way to incontrovertibly prove that. Not everything requires a randomized double blinded study. Durant flops around an amazing amount and shows more contact than Melo does. It’s a skill to be sure, and one that I wish Melo had. But there’s no way you can watch these games and truly believe that Melo gets anywhere the whistle Durant does.

  152. jon abbey

    DRed: Yes, the outcome is the same, but your method doesn’t tell us how the outcome was reached. Melo didn’t have a great game shooting, but he made upfor it with a fantastic performance on the offensive glass. What’s wrong with that?

    because I don’t think the two are so easily extricable from each other. when he takes that shot, he is looking to follow it right away if he misses, it’s all part of the same play.

  153. ruruland

    johnno:
    Imagine how “efficient” Melo would suddenly become if he got anywhere close to the friendly whistle that Durant gets.If he got just a single more foul call per game, his shooting percentage would jump 2 percent (because one of his missed shots would no longer count as an attempt) and his scoring average would jump 1.6 points (2 foul shots at 80%).He would look significantly better statistically, but he would be the exact same player he is now.What’s the point?Statistics don’t always tell the whole story. On another note, I think that it’s hilarious that ESPN chooses today to run an article explaining why Blake Griffin is a better player than Melo…

    It was obvious to the four casual basketball fans I watched the game with today. Anyone who pretends they don’t see it is in denial.

  154. jon abbey

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:

    And re: jon abbey saying that 20 missed shots with 20 offensive rebounds followed by a FGM is equal to one shot that went in… duuuuuuuuuude.

    haha, I knew that would bug you. it’s exactly the same thing, one possession, one basket. exactly the same, I think it’s hilarious that there are people that can’t grasp and/or accept this.

  155. ruruland

    Frank: That’s a cop out answer IMHO. You know very well there’s no way to incontrovertibly prove that. Not everything requires a randomized double blinded study. Durant flops around an amazing amount and shows more contact than Melo does. It’s a skill to be sure, and one that I wish Melo had. But there’s no way you can watch these games and truly believe that Melo gets anywhere the whistle Durant does.

    I honestly don’t think these folks would admit it unless Melo was murdered on the court and they were handed a death certificate to prove it.

  156. Z-man

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: And re: jon abbey saying that 20 missed shots with 20 offensive rebounds followed by a FGM is equal to one shot that went in… duuuuuuuuuude.

    Well, isn’t this essentially what Dean Oliver says? In both cases, the results is two points on one possession.

    Which is my essential problem with Oliver. In my view (and the most semantically sensible interpretation of the official NBA rule book), a shot attempt ends a possession, and an offensive rebound starts another; hence, the loose-ball foul. In that world, the 20-20 scenario would result in an extremely low PPP being somewhat offset by a higher possession total, similar to how shooting a lower FT% is somewhat offset by having more FT attempts. Even though the net result is the same–2 points before the other team gained possession–the rebounding is disaggregated from the shooting.

    I disagree with jon…imo, missing a shot is risking a possession, and most rebounds are defensive rebounds, so a missed shot should never be considered a good thing no matter what happens afterwards. On the other hand, offensive rebounds should be valued because they often lead to highly efficient “new” possessions. So I have no problem with the rebounder-putbacker getting all the credit for the score, and for the shooter getting none. On the other hand, I have no issue with creating a stat for the % of a player’s shots that lead to offensive rebounds and/or scores.

  157. Frank

    Actually you know what it is about Durant and the foul calls? A fair amount of what Durant does is done just to see if he can draw cheap fouls. The rip-through move, the flailing, etc. Melo probably gets a semi-fair whistle considering he doesn’t do a whole of of that BS. Durant devotes a lot of his time to trying to get the refs to blow a whistle. It’s horribly annoying to watch but effective.

  158. AnonymousODG

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Show me some evidence that Durant gets a friendlier whistle than Carmelo. Not today’s game. Maybe if Durant played more like Carmelo he would get fewer foul shots. I’m not saying that you’re wrong; I’m just saying that your argument is based on an assumption that I see no warrant for. You’re taking the causal agency out of Carmelo’s hands and putting it on the refs. I don’t know if we should do that without seeing evidence.

    Kevin Durant gets a friendlier whistle than Carmelo Anthony does. My evidence? The entirety of the last 4 NBA seasons.

  159. jon abbey

    Z-man:

    I disagree with jon…imo, missing a shot is risking a possession, and most rebounds are defensive rebounds, so a missed shot should never be considered a good thing no matter what happens afterwards. On the other hand, offensive rebounds should be valued because they often lead to highly efficient “new” possessions. So I have no problem with the rebounder-putbacker getting all the credit for the score, and for the shooter getting none. On the other hand, I have no issue with creating a stat for the % of a player’s shots that lead to offensive rebounds and/or scores.

    it’s not a good thing, but in some cases it’s not a bad thing. I’m not talking about missing a 3, I’m talking about taking your man right to the hoop and leaving yourself in by far the best position for a putback if necessary. if it works, it’s one play.

    and this isn’t a rare occurence, 5 of Melo’s 14 missed shots today fell into this category, that is a huge percentage. if you want to talk about PPPC (points per possession concluded) as opposed to PPS, that would make more sense for starters.

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