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Thursday, December 18, 2014

2013-14 Game Thread: Knicks @ Magic

The Knicks play one of the tankiest tanking teams that ever tanked tonight in the Orlando Magic, who recently waived one of the few players on the team that has given Melo a bit of a hard time, Big Baby Davis, so we will hopefully see something we haven’t seen in too long – a two-game winning streak for the Knicks!

The drive for .500 (or at least a playoff spot if not .500) continues!

Let’s go Knicks!

175 comments on “2013-14 Game Thread: Knicks @ Magic

  1. DRed

    Who will set a career high tonight? E’Twan Moore? Doron Lamb? Victor Oladipo?

    Poor Mo Harkless has probably been having nightmares about this game for a while.

  2. yellowboy90

    WHy do I have the feeling that Bargs and Metta, and 2018 1st will go to Orlando for Afflalo and Nelson. Just a weird feeling. Last year I had a feeling that Novak and Camby would be used to get Bargs. just saying.

  3. maxwell_3g

    there is no bigger screw job than turning on League Pass for FRIDAY NIGHT KNICKS!!!!!!! and realizing that they only have the Orlando feed. I’ve been thinking about that sweet theme song all day

  4. ephus

    Tobias Harris is the greatest player ever . . . to have graduated Half Hollow Hills High School West.

    Proud alum!

    Go Knicks.

  5. yellowboy90

    @5 I’m in fla watching the Orl feed and didn’t realize he was in Orlando for only 6-7 years. I thought it was longer. I still miss little Penny though.

  6. yellowboy90

    I find it interesting how the whole Orlando team takes turn holding Melo as he goes across the court without a foul being called.

  7. yellowboy90

    Tim Hardavak is my new name for Hardaway Jr. Opponents get “Novak” eyes when he is defending.

  8. cgreene

    It’s time for the “Melo is just another really good scorer” narrative to go away on this board. Melo is a top 7 player in the league last 2 seasons. No reason to think he can’t put up 3 or so more years like this w how he plays. I’ll gladly pay $20m per for that. There is no reason to think we will be able to get a player near his quality in a rebuild. He’s been just great.

  9. maxwell_3g

    my defense of TH2, umm, defense.

    One thing I don’t worry about with TH2 (which has played itself out with Shump and others). I believe that this guy is motivated, knows what it takes to be great in this league (through his daddy) and will do everything possible to maximize his talent. I see a young Kobe (another son of a baller) in him in this regard. Im not saying that he is going to be Kobe, but I believe that he is driven. He will be much better on D and O next year. we’d be crazy to even think about moving this guy

  10. Brian Cronin Post author

    $20 million is fine. $25 million is what kills ya. That extra $5 million is huge when trying to fit in other free agents.

  11. cgreene

    I bet if he comes back as a Knick or wherever he goes it’s for less than 20. We SHOULD be bending over to keep the guy… unless he insists on Woody. Ha.

  12. maxwell_3g

    cgreene:

    I was one of the people that hated the trade. i also honestly felt that before last season, Melo was legitimately a top 20 guy at best. This was counter most people views who has him as top 10. He wasnt, and there would be no convincing me.

    After the second half of last year and this year, I must admit that he is top 10. I still dont feel that we are going anywhere. I still would not give him supermax money for 5 years. I still probably would have shopped him. But I dont think there is any denying that he has stepped up. My problem with him was always related to what JVG says. If your leader works harder and hustles more, all other fall into line. I never thought he really worked hard on the court.

    I no longer have that complaint and feel that he has been a decent leader. He is clearly top 10 and I give him kudos for that. still dont know if I want to hitch our wagon to him long term, but props where props are due

  13. Brian Cronin Post author

    I bet if he comes back as a Knick or wherever he goes it’s for less than 20. We SHOULD be bending over to keep the guy… unless he insists on Woody. Ha.

    But that’s what I don’t get – who has been saying that they don’t want him back at that price? The worry has only been him coming back without a discount. Him coming back under $20 has always been my best case scenario going forward.

  14. yellowboy90

    Although Timmy sucks on D, it looks like he is putting forth good effort. I think with some S & C work and hopefully some good coaching to help technique he will be fine. His lateral movement on D is sluggish for someone so athletic.

  15. ephus

    Let’s get this board hopping.

    Denver started the WP/48 All Stars – Faried, Wilson Chandler, Hickson and Anthony Randolph. Strangely, the Nuggets are getting crushed.

    Small sample size acknowledged.

  16. Brian Cronin Post author

    Here’s what I don’t understand – what’s Orlando’s plan exactly? Is Afflalo part of their future?

  17. maxwell_3g

    brian, i think orlando is rolling with victor, vucevic, and whomever they pick up in the draft this year. harris and afflalo will be moved whenever the right situation presents itself

  18. maxwell_3g

    i feel ya biran, but i think its too soon to tell. i dont see him as a leading man, but I think he could be a second piece on a good team. i think if you redraft today, the greek Freak goes #1, which is pretty amazing

  19. Brian Cronin Post author

    Ha! I think he’s a talented guy, I just don’t think I’d build around him. I love Tyler, but he has these weird stretches where just everything he does is awful.

  20. maxwell_3g

    1) greek freak
    2) MCW
    3) Victor
    4) Trey Burke?
    5) Noel?

    i dont know if TH2is top 5, but def top 10. he has probably passed bennett and zeller in value. not sure we can really get a read on Len yet, due to injury and lack of PT

  21. Brian Cronin Post author

    I love that Noel’s stock has risen just by not playing, so he can’t suck like the rest.

  22. Brian Cronin Post author

    The Knicks will still win this, but holy shit, Knicks! What the fuck? I know “it’s the NBA and everybody makes a run” but seriously?!

  23. maxwell_3g

    brian, why are you so confident that the Knicks will win? I know that they have a long history of pulling games out all season, but still

  24. Will the Thrill

    It really sucks that when we find a nice young player who actually has a legitimate NBA skill, they are also totally inept at something. Shumpert can defend and shows sign on the offensive end, but is basically worthless on that end. TH2 can hit shots and run on the break but worthless on the other end.

  25. yellowboy90

    It seemed like Melo was trying to get Felton to switch Hardaway to the corner even though Felton just knocked one down. It just happen to work out after the miss layup and scramble.

  26. maxwell_3g

    holy shit. woodson needs to go immediately. we didnt get a 2 for 1 there. at some point this just becomes too much of a farce

  27. Will the Thrill

    The Knicks literally could’ve shot the ball with 6 seconds on the shot clock to guarantee the ball back and they choose to let the clock diminish like it was the end of the game.

  28. Will the Thrill

    If we didn’t have a foul to give there is no way the Magic don’t score on that possession lol.

  29. ephus

    I’ve been ranting all season about the Knicks inability to take the 2 for 1 at the end of quarters. If you get the ball with less than 36 – 48 seconds left, you have to get the ball up with at least 30 seconds left (optimally 32 seconds) to guarantee that you will have the last shot.

    This is bad coaching.

    Fire Woodson!

  30. Kikuchiyo

    Four games in five nights. He’s already playing too many minutes. Can someone explain why Melo is also bringing the ball up? Does he also have to drive the team bus?

    And does anyone ever ask Woodson if he even knows what 2-for-1 is?

  31. Brian Cronin Post author

    I think that should count but I’ll be damned if I could make that call for sure. Never seen that before.

  32. maxwell_3g

    LMAO. You cant make this shit up. i hope they stick with the call and we lose on this BS, just so we can say that we invented a new way to lose, blocking a dunk with our own head

  33. Brian Cronin Post author

    The Magic felt bad about that call so they decided to have one of the ugliest possessions you can see.

  34. maxwell_3g

    if the press does skewer woodson over his strategies tonight, then the sports press is officially no longer paying attention. this has been all of woodson’s incompetence wrapped in one

  35. Will the Thrill

    Why are people talking about the playoffs? What in the world would make you think this team is getting substantially better from now until the end of the season?

  36. maxwell_3g

    seriously guys. join me. i have been rooting against our team and rooting for denver to get the first pick for the past month. its a lot more fun that way. i promise

  37. ephus

    Nothing is over.
    Nothing.
    Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

    The time has come for a truly stupid and pointless gesture and the Knicks are just the guys to do it.

  38. Brian Cronin Post author

    The Magic are so stupid. They are faster and yet they still can’t get to the basket. So good.

  39. maxwell_3g

    we are like the classic “spoiler team”, only for teams that are tanking. these teams want nothing more than to lose, and they find it almost impossible to lose to us

  40. Brian Cronin Post author

    The Magic cannot convert on the fast break. So hilarious! Thank goodness or else they’d be getting blown out.

  41. Brian Cronin Post author

    Oh shit, not Afflalo! I love that guy! I mean, good for this game, but I don’t want him hurt badly.

  42. Kikuchiyo

    Two overtimes and a game tomorrow. You know what that means:

    Bring out zombified, one-armed Bargnani!

  43. ephus

    Here is a crazy thought. Maybe let Prigioni back in the game to get some ball movement and legs. Felton has burned through all reserve energy.

  44. Brian Cronin Post author

    Woodson’s like, “Huh? Why are they taking him out? You can’t substitute in overtime!”

  45. Brian Cronin Post author

    The Magic just don’t know how to get to the basket. They’re great at getting into the vicinity of the basket but not the actual basket.

  46. Will the Thrill

    we are like the classic “spoiler team”, only for teams that are tanking. these teams want nothing more than to lose, and they find it almost impossible to lose to us

    This is hilarious and true. The Knicks are the most feared team in the league from a tanking team owner/G.M. standpoint.

  47. Brian Cronin Post author

    I was going to say Oladipo’s youth helped him with the energy there, but then I saw THJ was guarding him. Lame, THJ!

  48. ephus

    Someday, Tim Hardaway Jr. will be a competent NBA defender. These are growing pains.

    Woodson has been an NBA coach for over a decade and he still does not know how to get his team to manage the end of quarters. That is bad coaching.

    Fire Woodson!

  49. maxwell_3g

    melo is the winner here. he has gone from a villian to a sympathetic figure. No one could ever blame him from running from this dumpster fire at the end of this year

  50. Brian Cronin Post author

    Also, does Melo really need Woody to tell him what to do? Obviously he’s going to try to get a screen to take a three. There didn’t need to be a timeout there! They could have just substituted during the free throw if that’s what he needed.

  51. maxwell_3g

    as far as clusterfucks go, this has been a highly enjoyable one to watch. and really, since i could give a damn about this sorry team, im OK with clusterfucks in general

  52. Will the Thrill

    Hardaway is a trainwreck on defense. Honestly, Novak was better

    I was thinking the same thing. We traded Novak and a pick for the worst player in the NBA but we got nearly an exact replica from the draft! He is arguably better overall on offense and arguably worse on defense but he is good (shooting) and bad (everything else) at the same things.

  53. ephus

    Quick recap:

    Carmelo Anthony had yet another strong game. He found his legs to make two clutch 3s in the second overtime.

    Ray Felton was having his best game of the year through the end of regulation. Then, the wheels fell off.

    JR Smith was awful. Missed shots. Turnovers on bad passes. Stupid foul on Oladipo to shut the door.

    Chandler had a flawed game. He blew two easy dunks in bizarre fashion.

    Tim Hardaway Jr. is not an NBA defender.

    Woodson should not be an NBA coach.

  54. ephus

    Anyone who confuses Novak and Hardaway as open court players or at-the-rim finishers is not paying attention.

    Hardaway is an awful defender today, but he is a good enough athlete that I expect he will improve over the next two years.

  55. yellowboy90

    I think Hardavak gave up 50 pts by himself. The poor guy is horrible. Sidenote; I would think about going zone with him in. That would have been a nice move late when afflalo went out but that would be very rare and outside the box.

  56. MarvsTeeth

    Fun hypothetical: What would the Bulls record be if Mike Woodson was coaching them (and assume none of the Thibs influence carried over from previous years)? What about if Thibs was coaching the Knicks?

    I mean, the Bulls roster might be worse than the Knicks roster when you take out Deng and Rose.

    Bulls I think would drop from 29-25 to 19-35. Knicks maybe from 21-34 up to 29-26.

  57. d-mar

    Can someone press the fast forward button and get me to June 2015? I don’t think I can watch any more of this team.

  58. yellowboy90

    Why the heck was Tyson giving the driver the sideline and hugging up O’Quinn at the 3pt line on the oladipo Dunk and 1? How about trap the ball handler.

  59. ephus

    Fun hypothetical: What would the Bulls record be if Mike Woodson was coaching them (and assume none of the Thibs influence carried over from previous years)? What about if Thibs was coaching the Knicks?

    I mean, the Bulls roster might be worse than the Knicks roster when you take out Deng and Rose.

    Bulls I think would drop from 29-25 to 19-35. Knicks maybe from 21-34 up to 29-26.

    Not fun! Too true.

    Thibs would have this Knicks team at 31 – 24. Assuming he could not be fired, Woodson would have led the Bulls to 14-40.

  60. Owen

    Man, that’s a gut punch.

    Turned it on 120-115. Melo cans that bomb. I think, I am a lucky talisman. But no….

    You know what was dumb? A lot of things clearly, but why was JR fouling Oladipo there? I actually couldn’t see where he hit him on that final and-1 but the ref must have seen something. Right?

    But you can’t make it a four point game…..

    Anyway, clearly that’s well down the list of things to complain about this game…

  61. stratomatic

    Just get yourself into the appropriate 2015 rebuild mode and the pain almost goes away.

    We already know they suck from top to bottom (including coach and management). This rebuild was an epic fail. Not to pile on, but it was obvious from the start. Now the only thing that matters is that we don’t blow the next one.

  62. Jack Bauer

    In a season full of epic low points and embarrassing losses I think they have hit bottom now. They cannot even beat the lowest rung of teams in the Eastern conference. What is keeping them from firing the coach ?!?! He is awful. I don’t even care anymore , just put us out of our misery and end the season already.

  63. Brian Cronin Post author

    Woody on why they didn’t go 2 for 1 at the end of regulation “I’ve got to go back and look at that, but it was a bad executed play. We could’ve gotten something better than that, I think.”

    That he isn’t fired yet is some kind of awesome cosmic joke.

    Arturo Galetti had an awesome fact on Twitter earlier. The Knicks, Celtics and Lakers have never all missed the playoffs during the same season. Woah. I guess that means the Knicks have to make the playoffs then, right? Right?

    Right?

  64. Jake S.

    Just get yourself into the appropriate 2015 rebuild mode and the pain almost goes away.

    We already know they suck from top to bottom (including coach and management). This rebuild was an epic fail. Not to pile on, but it was obvious from the start. Now the only thing that matters is that we don’t blow the next one.

    They already HAVE blown the next one — by committing to Carmelo Anthony or leaving themselves with nothing if he bolts at the end of the year. The trading deadline may have been their last chance to get 40 cents on the dollar for Chandler and Melo and maybe get JR or Felton (or both) off their books, and they blew it. That’s what makes this all so dispiriting — the knowledge that we haven’t even hit bottom yet.

  65. hoolahoop

    And does anyone ever ask Woodson if he even knows what 2-for-1 is?

    I’d rather ask Woodson why he never takes the 2-for-1 and hear him say, “What’s that”?

  66. Jake S.

    Mike Woodson doesn’t get another head coaching gig after this, does he? I’ve watched Don Chaney and Herb Williams and Lenny Wilkens and Herb Williams and Larry Brown and Herb Williams and Mike D’Antoni, and I’ve never seen anything like this. How can you be an NBA coach and not know how to go two-for-one?

  67. BigBlueAL

    Im more stunned than ever at how this team was able to win 54 games and 6 playoff games last season with Mike Woodson as their head coach.

  68. hoolahoop

    Im more stunned than ever at how this team was able to win 54 games and 6 playoff games last season with Mike Woodson as their head coach.

    J. Kidd was telling him Woodson – and the team – what to do.
    It all makes sense now. At some point, Kidd realized he was more valuable as a coach than a player.

  69. Brian Cronin Post author

    It seriously does seem like Kidd was doing a lot of the decision-making on the court, doesn’t it? Meanwhile, he had Sheed and Kurt Thomas as sort of assistant coaches for Kidd. Then he just had them run another coach’s offense and voila!

  70. Brian Cronin Post author

    Artest with the bizarre, but amusing, joke on Twitter:

    I might Fire my agent and sign with CAA sports agency.

    The coaching staff , front office n some of the players are signed with CAA.

    joke:)

    What a weird joke to make!

  71. mokers

    Jake: this is the low point because there is no draft pick this year. If Melo leaves for nothing in the off-season and the Knicks are terrible, at least you have time to be optimistic about the draft. Not so this year.

  72. Jake S.

    I don’t know, Mokers, I think it would be pretty nightmarish if they ended up losing something like the 4th pick in the draft AND Melo left in the offseason. That seems like the low point we’re barreling towards.

    But even if Melo comes back at a discount, I don’t see how this thing turns around. What 2015 free agent is supposed to solve their ills? Kevin Love is great, but he plays the same position as Melo and struggles defensively. LaMarcus Aldridge is great, but he plays the same position as Melo and he too is underwhelming defensively. Rondo is Rondo, but he’s not adding 25 wins by himself. And chances are, they’ll only have cap room for one of these guys. I’m just not seeing it — I’d love to be convinced otherwise. I think Jared Dubin took a stab at it, wasn’t very encouraging.

  73. Jake S.

    I suppose we’re in agreement if we take “now” to mean this year, as opposed to right now with the Knicks sitting at 21-34 in one of the worst conferences in the history of basketball.

  74. nyk8806

    Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is a big part of what we do around here. We’re not going to kick losing to the curb just because we somehow won a game.

  75. Brian Cronin Post author

    In the West, a .600 team is currently the #7 seed. In the East, the #3 seed is a .545 team.

    The West’s #9 seed has a better record than the East’s #3 seed!

    Crazy, man, crazy. And they all have to play each other, so that makes their records even more amazing!

  76. ruruland

    Not sure why the focus is LA and Love in ’15.

    Dragic would be my top target, Rondo the fall-back.

    Dragon is a do everything pg, at least offensively.

    You then go after Gasol,Hibbert, Vujecic.

    Khawi Leonard, and Jimmy Butler available as wing defenders.

    Perhaps only Dragic would be close to a max guy by then.

    Dragic, TH2, Leonard/Butler, Melo, Gasol/Hibbert/Vujecic/Jordan

    It’s funny, of all places people seem stuck on the big names…

    Well, if we can’t get Love….

    Dude, a premier point guard and a rim protecting big (with an offensive prescence) is perfect for Melo. Throw in an elite 3 and D wing like Leonard or Butler?

    What if Melo uses next year for maintenance ;) and you add a lottery pick to the mix?

    Dwayne Wade isn’t going to be a dominant force in 2015.

    A Dragic/Melo combo with ideal complements around them is more attractive than a diminishing returns situation with Love or Aldridge.

    2015 isn’t a headliner class, but it’s full of players who work really well with Melo.

    A past prime Billups and a lesser version of Melo should have played the Magic for an NBA championship in 2009.

    Just because you can’t have Paul, Durant or Lebron doesn’t mean you can’t build a Pacers or Spurs style team (balance of wing defense and shooting, rebounding and rim protection and guard penetration playmaking) with a top 10 player as hungry as the Celtics guys were on their first run together.

    You don’t have to be myopic to have realistic hope.

  77. flossy

    You don’t have to be myopic to have realistic hope.

    No, but you have to be slightly deranged to think it’s realistic that Goran Dragic, Kawhi Leonard and Marc Gasol are all flocking to NY to jump in this dumpster fire come 2015.

  78. Jake S.

    I feel nominally better, ruruland, thanks. But I too have very little faith in this front office to make this work, and I still think you need to have a foundation in place before you starting adding free agent pieces. I like Timmy and Tyler, but I don’t see either as a starter in this league.

  79. cgreene

    Right. That’s the point. Not that the ideas aren’t good or realistic or that there aren’t clever ways to turn Knicks assets into a much better team. It’s that this organization is incapable of doing it. I would put good $ that Cal is the next coach of the team and that one of Eric Gordon, Demar Derozan or Josh Smith is a Knick on opening night 2014.

  80. ephus

    It’s hard to plan around getting restricted free agents like Leonard/Butler/Vukavic. By definition, the Knicks would have to bid more than the Spurs, Bulls or Magic are willing to match. The only restricted free agents that I recall moving under the new CBA were Lin and Asik – and that went badly for everyone.

    I hope that good things are coming. It’s hard to have faith.

  81. MSA

    Yeah, that plan makes too much sense for the Knicks.

    I would include LA as possible free agent signing.

    Hugely overrated and better yet, play in the same position as Melo.

  82. stratomatic

    The major risk to the 2015 rebuild is that this front does not know how to value players or fit them together. I mean, only a crazy person would have brought in Amre for that length of time to begin with. But then if you add Melo to him you should be institutionalized. Both are overvalued and it’s the worst fit imaginable.

  83. flossy

    Part of me honestly hopes that Melo does just get fed up with this shit and leaves this summer. Not because it would be good for the short term (obviously it would be crippling), but just for the slap in the face and cold bucket of water it would throw all over James Dolan’s delusions of being able to manage a basketball franchise. I’m not sure anything short of total public humiliation will show him that he needs to butt the fuck out of basketball operations and let the people who know what they’re doing do their damn jobs. Maybe at that point, Chandler could be traded for a pick, and I think I could learn to love watching Andrea Bargnani’s Expiring Contract help us tank to a high lottery pick. Who knows, maybe Parker or Embiid or someone decides to stay another year, and we’re rewarded for our suffering with next year’s #1 pick. That honestly seems at least as plausible as Melo coming back for a pay cut and the Knicks FO flawlessly executing a 2015 FA re-stock. If Melo stays, I find it much more likely we trade Shumpert, Hardaway, the 2018 pick and the right to swap in 2015 and 2017 for Josh Smith and JaVale McGee.

  84. DRed

    Part of me honestly hopes that Melo does just get fed up with this shit and leaves this summer. Not because it would be good for the short term (obviously it would be crippling), but just for the slap in the face and cold bucket of water it would throw all over James Dolan’s delusions of being able to manage a basketball franchise.

    Sadly, that’s impossible. Remember, we’re talking about an idiot who thinks he can’t bring back his buddy Zeke because the fans would be unfair to him.

  85. stratomatic

    Artest with the bizarre, but amusing, joke on Twitter:

    I might Fire my agent and sign with CAA sports agency.

    The coaching staff , front office n some of the players are signed with CAA.

    joke:)

    What a weird joke to make!Artest with the bizarre, but amusing, joke on Twitter:

    I might Fire my agent and sign with CAA sports agency.

    The coaching staff , front office n some of the players are signed with CAA.

    joke:)

    What a weird joke to make!

    I think he was saying they are all incompetent but somehow they all have jobs while he’s rotting on the bench.

  86. DRed

    Hard to tell if Metta is awful this year because he’s tired of being jerked around by Woodson, because his knee is messed up, or because he’s hit his expiration date. But jacking up terrible shots is probably not a great way to earn playing time. Unless your name is Earl Smith Jr.

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