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Friday, December 19, 2014

2012 Trade Deadline Open Thread

Okay, folks, I figure it makes sense to have an open thread for today’s NBA Trade Deadline.

So far, the biggest news is that Dwight Howard is, indeed, opting in for one more year in Orlando. Of course, that only means that he cannot sign with another team as a free agent this offseason. It does not mean that the Magic might be forced to trade him after this season, whether in the offseason or during next year’s trade deadline.

The Nets, for one, believe that they still have a shot at Howard during the summer. To that end, they are trying to trade Mehmet Okur, Extra E Williams (or Petro) and a Top 3 protected first rounder to Portland for Gerald Wallace. Risky move there, if it goes down.

The Lakers are apparently close to a deal for Michael Beasley, in a three-way deal with Minnesota and Portland, where Jamal Crawford ends up in Minny and Steve Blake ends up in Portland (along with the Mavericks’ 1st rounder). That is not a done deal yet.

Leandro Barbosa was traded to the Pacers for a pick.

Sam Young was traded to Philly for the rights to Ricky Sanchez, a Philly second-rounder from a few years back.

That’s it so far! But I’m sure there will be more to come, and you can talk about it here.

214 comments on “2012 Trade Deadline Open Thread

  1. Nick C.

    The pick is definitely risky for NJ, since they are lottery bound this year and if no D12 lottery bound for the foreseeable future, but Petro to my untrained eye sux and Extra E has given them 0.

  2. Caleb

    Nets are even more pathetic than we are. Seriously. We may not like Melo so much but they gave up Derrick Favors and what, 3 picks, for a year of Deron so they could be the 3rd worst team in the league instead of the worst?

    And now they think Wallace is a better trade chip for Dwight, than a future 1st? Or that a 29 year-old injury prone guy is a better fit for a 20-win team?

  3. Frank

    I hate this move for the Nets. If I were them I would trade Deron for draft picks. Wallace’s numbers have declined year by year and I think I remember seeing something on Truehoop that he was one of the worst defenders in the league this year. On Synergy he is ranked 295th out of 400-some NBA players. For a guy who makes his rep on defense and rebounding, ranking 295th in PPP-against and having a rebound rate of 10.4 (ranks him 14th among SF but not even top 50 for PFs – he plays about 1/3 of his minutes at the 4 per 82games), that is pretty sucky.

    This feels very much like a guy whose athleticism is starting to wane. And they’re trading a top 10 pick in a deep talented draft for him. And Deron is going to walk. Horrible.

  4. Robtachi

    They got Gerald Wallace… to what end? Mr. Ex-Big-Ass is actually having a good season for the Nets, and his PER is something like +2 over what Wallace is producing. Is this even an upgrade? It’s not a cap move, since they traded away Okur’s expiring contract. If they don’t get into the top 3 in the lottery, which doesn’t look too likely right now, they just shipped off a pretty high-muffuggin’ draft pick in a stacked draft class for a guy who isn’t even an improvement, and if they think Gerald Wallace is going to persuade Deron to stay or Dwight to once again push for a trade next season to the Nets, they’re even more dysfunctional than our Knickerbockers.

  5. ess-dog

    If it’s their own pick they’ve traded then yes, horrible trade. I assumed it was the late 1st rounder they had.

    What they really need to do is move Brook but that’s tough when he’s injured. I actually don’t think they gave up that much in the Deron trade, and I think the atmosphere in Brooklyn will be great, but they need a lot more talent.

    I like Deron, Wallace and Humphries though if they can improve at the 2 and 5.

  6. Frank

    Wow, what a horrible trade for Houston. Trading a young big on the last year of his deal for horrible D-Fisher and his longer contract, and a 25th pick or something? there must be another domino or else Morey definitely is high on something.

  7. BigBlueAL

    Why the hell would the Rockets trade Jordan Hill for Derek Fisher?? Is also getting the Mavs 2012 1st-round pick really worth it??

  8. Frank

    ess-dog:

    I like Deron, Wallace and Humphries though if they can improve at the 2 and 5.

    I mean, I guess, a starting lineup of Deron, Morrow, Wallace, Hump, and Lopez resembles the talent of an ok NBA team, but still – they are going to have to make it a no-brainer for Deron to want to stay rather than bolt for his hometown of Dallas. And meanwhile, Humphries is a UFA after this season and is just killing it right now = likely to command a $9-10M/y contract after this run.

  9. Ben R

    You gotta love Portland cleanng house getting draft picks. A second and two young players (admittedly busts but very young) for Camby and a first and expirings for Wallace. Thats the way you do it, you see the writing and you cash in as many assets as possible before you get nothing for them.

  10. BigBlueAL

    Lakers add Sessions and Hill (couple of nice additions) for Fisher, Kapono and the Mavs 1st round pick. Plus they also apparently save on the luxery tax. Not bad.

  11. Brian Cronin

    I cannot believe they traded Fisher. That is harsh. Also, were the Rockets actually looking to add Fisher or were they just dumping Jordan Hill?

  12. BigBlueAL

    Surprised Portland didnt trade Crawford or Felton even though they were apparently shopping them hard.

  13. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin:
    I cannot believe they traded Fisher. That is harsh. Also, were the Rockets actually looking to add Fisher or were they just dumping Jordan Hill?

    Harsh but lets face it, Blake/Sessions is a much better PG duo than Fisher with anybody.

  14. Brian Cronin

    What a great line:

    @netw3rk: This will be tough on Kobe. He’ll have to find a new best friend on the team who he’ll never invite to his house.

    And are the Spurs seriously going to get Jax for Jefferson?

  15. Frank

    I think the Lakers really helped themselves even though they had to send out 2 late 1st rounders. Sessions is obviously better than anyone else they have, and Hill has some talent and is a good 3rd or 4th big for them. If they could’ve pulled off the Steve Blake (?!?!?!?), Jamal, and Beasley three-way, that would’ve have been really amazing.

    Dunno – Sessions, Kobe, Metta, Gasol, Bynum with Hill, Barnes, etc. off the bench is pretty good for playoffs when you can play the starters 40 min.

  16. Jacob

    Sessions was terrible in the triangle with ‘Sota… He thrives in the classic pick ‘n roll.

    G. Wallace is huge upgrade for Nets – you have to understand the Nets’ SFs were ghastly. Doesn’t make sense for the long term, though.

  17. nicos

    While Sessions is a real upgrade over Fisher, I don’t think he’s a great fit with Kobe- they need a point who can bring the ball up and then go stand in the corner and hit the three. He will definitely pay dividends if he can play with the bigs w/o Kobe on the floor. A little surprised Houston basically gave up on Hill- his stats really aren’t bad but then again this is a very deep draft so maybe they felt they could do better at the end of the first round.

  18. BigBlueAL

    WHOA!! According to Yahoo:

    As part of three-team deal, Nene goes to the Wizards, JaVale McGee to Denver and Nick Young to Clippers, sources tell Y! Sports.

  19. Z

    I got the Trade Deadline Blues.

    Last year we needed two things: a franchise PG and/or a franchise C. We got an overrated, overpaid SF.

    Since that day, Chris Paul has become available; Dwight Howard has become available; Deron Williams has become available twice.

    But we are married to our overpaid SF.

    :(

  20. Brian Cronin

    What the fuckity fuck? Wow, they really lost faith in Nene quick! I know he’s having a tough season (and Faried is playing well, leading them I guess to think they have their future 4 and McGee can be their 5), but dayum.

  21. Frank

    Wait, what did the Clippers give up? A 2nd round pick? how is this possible? They’re above the cap and Young makes 3.7M?

  22. Brian Cronin

    Nate McMillan fired. Shit gettin crazy lol

    Thank goodness for his sake. I was worried that they’d make him coach the gutted Blazers until they fired him at the end of the season.

  23. jon abbey

    Z:
    I got the Trade Deadline Blues.

    Last year we needed two things: a franchise PG and/or a franchise C. We got an overrated, overpaid SF.

    Since that day, Chris Paul has become available; Dwight Howard has become available; Deron Williams has become available twice.

    But we are married to our overpaid SF.

    :(

    Howard didn’t actually become available, and Deron has only become available once so far, which Utah didn’t seem to bother informing anyone but NJ of at the time.

  24. BigBlueAL

    Frank:
    Wait, what did the Clippers give up? A 2nd round pick? how is this possible? They’re above the cap and Young makes 3.7M?

    Brian Cook I think.

  25. Robtachi

    ess-dog:
    If it’s their own pick they’ve traded then yes, horrible trade.I assumed it was the late 1st rounder they had.

    What they really need to do is move Brook but that’s tough when he’s injured.I actually don’t think they gave up that much in the Deron trade, and I think the atmosphere in Brooklyn will be great, but they need a lot more talent.

    I like Deron, Wallace and Humphries though if they can improve at the 2 and 5.

    Isn’t that “late” 1st rounder the Nets have (had) in the 9-12 range? That’s still a great pick to have in this draft class…

  26. Frank

    Wow – John Wall must be doing backflips right now. Two of the biggest knuckleheads on the team gone in minutes, and he gets a real big man to play with.

    I don’t know if I get this for Denver. Karl must really think he can get through to Javale. There’s a reason a guy with all the talent in the world is on one of the worst teams in the league.

  27. ruruland

    BigBlueAL:
    WHOA!!According to Yahoo:

    As part of three-team deal, Nene goes to the Wizards, JaVale McGee to Denver and Nick Young to Clippers, sources tell Y! Sports.

    Right, Nene was a building block in Denver, a guy that led the Nuggets to a conference championship win spite of the Melo isos, he’s having a career year without Melo, so this is really surprising.

    He was always so tough and reliable.

    To be fair, I don’t like this move by Denver at all.

  28. The Raging Platypus

    BigBlueAL:
    WHOA!!According to Yahoo:

    As part of three-team deal, Nene goes to the Wizards, JaVale McGee to Denver and Nick Young to Clippers, sources tell Y! Sports.

    Whoa, I don’t see how George Karl is going to enjoy coaching a total bonehead like McGee. What was the rationale behind this move? Doesn’t Mozzie already sort of replicate whatever skillset McGee gives you (Interior finisher, shotblocker)?

  29. jon abbey

    ruruland: Right, Nene was a building block in Denver, a guy that led the Nuggets to a conference championship win spite of the Melo isos, he’s having a career year without Melo, so this is really surprising.

    He was always so tough and reliable.

    hehehehe…

  30. Brian Cronin

    I don’t know if I get this for Denver. Karl must really think he can get through to Javale. There’s a reason a guy with all the talent in the world is on one of the worst teams in the league.

    Like I said, I think it has more to do with Faried than anything. Nene was never going to play the 5 in Denver, and when you have a stud 4 like Faried, Nene suddenly becomes expendable. McGee, on the other hand, is a true 5. I think they should have been able to get more for Nene, but I at least understand the logic. As you know, Faried is really good. In addition, he makes little money while Nene makes tons.

  31. Frank

    For Denver, this feels a little like getting rid of Billups, which was all about getting Lawson more time. Exit Nene, add 35 min/night of Faried.

    McGee is a total knucklehead though. Not sure how that one will play out.

  32. ruruland

    Frank:
    Wow – John Wall must be doing backflips right now. Two of the biggest knuckleheads on the team gone in minutes, and he gets a real big man to play with.

    I don’t know if I get this for Denver. Karl must really think he can get through to Javale.There’s a reason a guy with all the talent in the world is on one of the worst teams in the league.

    Nene is a nice player. Not sure what you mean by real big man. He certainly doesn’t play big. He’s more like Boris Diaw in a prototypical 4mans body, long arms, great frame, excellent passer, solid in post but way too passive.

    Ok defender, doesn;t contest or block shots like he should with his length. Poor rebounder. Huge success playing off Melo.

  33. Robtachi

    Please tell me Toney Douglas Will Be Don’t Doing What Toney Douglas Don’t Do with some other team after all the deadline moves shake down? I don’t hate TD, but he is absolutely buried on the Knicks’ roster and there’s got to be someone out there who was willing to put a value on him.

  34. ruruland

    Brian Cronin: Like I said, I think it has more to do with Faried than anything. Nene was never going to play the 5 in Denver, and when you have a stud 4 like Faried, Nene suddenly becomes expendable. McGee, on the other hand, is a true 5. I think they should have been able to get more for Nene, but I at least understand the logic. As you know, Faried is really good.

    They should have waited to package him with one or two of their wings and picks to try to get a top guy…..

    McGee is totally redundant on the roster.

    At least Nene’s skills were compatible with the rest of the roster.

  35. Frank

    Meanwhile, not that Portland wasn’t headed straight for the shi**er anyway, but how about being the team that crushes them by 42 causing them to basically blow up the team and fire the coach?
    Wow.

  36. ruruland

    The Raging Platypus: Whoa, I don’t see how George Karl is going to enjoy coaching a total bonehead like McGee.What was the rationale behind this move?Doesn’t Mozzie already sort of replicate whatever skillset McGee gives you (Interior finisher, shotblocker)?

    Uh, yeah, and Andersen. Ton of overlap with Faried, too. Makes no sense to not use the Nene chip as part of a much bigger and better package.

  37. Frank

    ruruland: Nene is a nice player. Not sure what you mean by real big man. He certainly doesn’t play big. He’s more like Boris Diaw in a prototypical 4mans body, long arms, great frame, excellent passer, solid in post but way too passive.

    Ok defender, doesn;t contest or block shots like he should with his length. Poor rebounder. Huge success playing off Melo.

    LOL ok – how about Wall being happy just not having to redirect McGee from the backcourt to the frontcourt while on offense?

  38. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    ruruland:
    Ok defender, doesn;t contest or block shots like he should with his length. Poor rebounder. Huge success playing off Melo.

    He was awesome after the trade last year, ruru. He’s been terrible this year, but let’s not lie to ourselves and say that Melo’s some kind of player who makes everyone around him better. You may think he is, but he’s not.

  39. Ben R

    Denver now has 4 rotation quality centers (McGee, Andersen, Mozgov, Koufos) in a league starved for decent centers. They could get at least low 1sts, high 2nds for any of those 4 why keep them all.

  40. ruruland

    First big mistake by Masaii. Everyone’s he’s signed have been on good deals. Obviously the Melo trade was ridiculous — the Miller deal, the K2 deal, the great draft selections.

    Maybe I’m seeing a checker game when he’s making a chess move, but it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me right now.

  41. ruruland

    Frank: LOL ok – how about Wall being happy just not having to redirect McGee from the backcourt to the frontcourt while on offense?

    It makes sense for Wash. No doubt. Just giving you the reals on Nene.

  42. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    ruruland: Uh, yeah, and Andersen. Ton of overlap with Faried, too. Makes no sense to not use the Nene chip as part of a much bigger and better package.

    Or realizing that they made a mistake in giving him $13M a year over the next five, and that they could trade him basically straight-up for a player due $2.2M this year and $3.6 in a QO next year who seems to have not come close to his potential.

    With McGee and Faried, the Nuggets have by far the most athletic frontcourt in the league.

    They just cut $60M off of their books, and they have enough money to offer a max contract this offseason. Not sure to whom, but they’ve got money to spend on more pressing needs than PF.

  43. massive

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Or realizing that they made a mistake in giving him $13M a year over the next five, and that they could trade him basically straight-up for a player due $2.2M this year and $3.6 in a QO next year who seems to have not come close to his potential.

    With McGee and Faried, the Nuggets have by far the most athletic frontcourt in the league.

    They just cut $60M off of their books, and they have enough money to offer a max contract this offseason. Not sure to whom, but they’ve got money to spend on more pressing needs than PF.

    How hilarious would it be if they signed Deron Williams?

  44. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: He was awesome after the trade last year, ruru. He’s been terrible this year, but let’s not lie to ourselves and say that Melo’s some kind of player who makes everyone around him better. You may think he is, but he’s not.

    Uh, Nene’s numbers and efficiency went down after the trade. Don’t have time to get into larger topic. I can do a multiple linear regression, too, just need time. I already know essentially what it will show.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/1713/year/2011/nene-hilario

  45. Brian Cronin

    I don’t think Dnever will have MAX cap space .They’re reportedly close to signing Chandler to a long-term deal. Odds are more moves are coming for them during the offseason.

  46. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Or realizing that they made a mistake in giving him $13M a year over the next five, and that they could trade him basically straight-up for a player due $2.2M this year and $3.6 in a QO next year who seems to have not come close to his potential.

    With McGee and Faried, the Nuggets have by far the most athletic frontcourt in the league.

    They just cut $60M off of their books, and they have enough money to offer a max contract this offseason. Not sure to whom, but they’ve got money to spend on more pressing needs than PF.

    Fair points. I hadn’t looked at the financials deeply enough .

  47. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    massive: How hilarious would it be if they signed Deron Williams?

    Would be pretty silly since they have a player at the same position who’s, at least statistically, much better than Williams. Some major veteran free agents coming on the market this summer, though.

  48. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Brian Cronin:
    I don’t think Dnever will have MAX cap space .They’re reportedly close to signing Chandler to a long-term deal. Odds are more moves are coming for them during the offseason.

    I think Hoopshype has them at $29M in committed money if they don’t re-sign Miller.

  49. massive

    And by hilarious, I mean ironic. With D-Will, Gallo, and Faried, they’d have the “What The Knicks Should Have Done” Big 3.

  50. ruruland

    er:
    I hate nene he is a waste of talent

    This. Total waste of talent. His feet, length and strength, along with skills as 14 foot shooter and passer (hand size) — could have been a GREAT player.

    Didn’t have the head for it.

  51. jon abbey

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: I think Hoopshype has them at $29M in committed money if they don’t re-sign Miller.

    that’s not including Gallinari’s $9M, and assumes they won’t keep McGee and won’t resign Wilson Chandler.

    I’m OK with that move for DEN, though, I always thought Nene was overrated.

  52. ruruland

    massive:
    And by hilarious, I mean ironic. With D-Will, Gallo, and Faried, they’d have the “What The Knicks Should Have Done” Big 3.

    I’ll buy on two of those guys as part of a big 3. Faried is the real thing.

  53. Ben R

    We should trade Douglas for one of Denver’s spare centers. They could use extra young depth at guard and we could use Koufos, Mozgov or Andersen to give us more size.

  54. Z

    ruruland:
    First big mistake by Masaii. Everyone’s he’s signed have been on good deals. Obviously the Melo trade was ridiculous — the Miller deal, the K2 deal, the great draft selections.

    Maybe I’m seeing a checker game when he’s making a chess move, butit doesn’t make a lot of sense to me right now.

    Denver got Turiaf, the coolest dude to ever pick up a basketball, in the deal. (and all it cost them was -$65,000,000).

  55. KnicksFanInVA

    You guys think Nate McMillan would be a good fit with the Knicks? He did a pretty good job in Seattle and Portland. Has to be better than Woodson ISO-Ball.

  56. Frank

    Zach Lowe just said Denver has $39M committed in 12-13 not counting cap holds. So they could offer a max on someone but would have to renounce some or all of their FAs. Will be LOTS of team with cap room to spend though – lots of overpaying coming up this summer.

  57. Brian Cronin

    You guys think Nate McMillan would be a good fit with the Knicks? He did a pretty good job in Seattle and Portland. Has to be better than Woodson ISO-Ball.

    I think I’d actually prefer Woodson (I don’t want him, though, of course). At least Woodson has been with D’Antoni all year so he knows the offense a bit. McMillan must be one of the worst Xs and Os coach in the league. He is a brilliant player’s coach, though. If the Knicks were playing better, I’d like him. McMillan is the type of guy you let coach a good team.

  58. ruruland

    KnicksFanInVA:
    You guys think Nate McMillan would be a good fit with the Knicks? He did a pretty good job in Seattle and Portland. Has to be better than Woodson ISO-Ball.

    Too slow and methodical….

  59. ruruland

    Brian Cronin: I think I’d actually prefer Woodson. At least Woodson has been with D’Antoni all year so he knows the offense a bit. McMillan must be one of the worst Xs and Os coach in the league. He is a brilliantplayer’s coach, though. If the Knicks were playing better, I’d like him.

    “McMillan must be one of the worst Xs and Os coach in the league.”

    Not so sure about that. Doesn’t use his talent though. Slows game down too much as well. Too much structure, actually.

  60. BigBlueAL

    Did you guys see Danny Granger’s quote Hahn mentioned today about him saying we have 2 games vs New York this weekend and those are very winnable games??

    Hope Melo does to him what he did to him at the end of last season in Indy.

  61. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin:
    UNC Asheville up 4 at the half! Only the seventh time in NCAA Tournament history that a #16 has led at halftime.

    I got Syracuse losing in Sweet 16 to Wisconsin. Maybe I shouldve gone with Kansas St beating them next round like some suggested.

  62. er

    Yea he abused him only dontae jones
    Played good d on melo….I honestly think we can get these two…maybe I’m too much of an optimist idk

    BigBlueAL:
    Did you guys see Danny Granger’s quote Hahn mentioned today about him saying we have 2 games vs New York this weekend and those are very winnable games??

    Hope Melo does to him what he did to him at the end of last season in Indy.

  63. nicos

    McGee is basically Birdman- with all of the positive and all the negatives- but 10 years younger. I actually like Koufos a lot- he’ll be a nice free agent pick-up for somebody this summer if Denver doesn’t re-sign him. My guess is they move Mozgov instead. It’ll be interesting to see Nene is Washington- my guess is he dogs it- not the first guy I would choose if I was trying to change the culture of the team.

  64. BigBlueAL

    er:
    Yea he abused him only dontae jones
    Played good d on melo….I honestly think we can get these two…maybe I’m too much of an optimist idk

    I was just referring to hitting the game-winner in his face then blocking his attempt at a game-winner. Plus think Melo scored over 30 that game despite not shooting great.

  65. Ben R

    I think Portland dropped the ball not trading Crawford. He is done there, he went to war with the coach, they chose not to play him last night for no reason other than the fact they were trading him. There is no coming back from that. There was a 3-way with LA and Minnesota where he was going to the T-Wolves for Beasley and Beasley was going to LA but why not just do that trade straight up. Add Beasley to the Blazers move Aldridge to C and play Beasley at the 4.

    Aldridge, Beasley, Batum, Matthews is an athletic and young 2-5 add 2 lottery picks in an amazing draft and tons of cap space and you have a nice situation.

  66. d-mar

    Brian Cronin:
    UNC Asheville up 4 at the half! Only the seventh time in NCAA Tournament history that a #16 has led at halftime.

    Wait, that can’t be true, Mike Francesa said Syracuse would be feeling ornery today and would blow out UNC Asheville. Please correct your post.

  67. er

    Indeed

    BigBlueAL: I was just referring to hitting the game-winner in his face then blocking his attempt at a game-winner.Plus think Melo scored over 30 that game despite not shooting great.

  68. Brian Cronin

    I think they’re thinking more cap space this summer… Getting a pick back is icing.

    Hill is a free agent, isn’t he? So they’d have the cap room no matter what if they want it . Dealing him now is for the picks.

  69. art vandelay

    I think, unfortunately, Granger hit a game winner in Indiana to beat the Knicks over Melo in another game last season if memory serves me well (though the Melo game winner over Granger came later in the season, so it was sort of revenge).

  70. Brian Cronin

    Wait, that can’t be true, Mike Francesa said Syracuse would be feeling ornery today and would blow out UNC Asheville. Please correct your post.

    The problem with these games is that you know it is only a matter of when not if the #1 seed goes off on a run. So while I’d love to see the upset, I know it won’t actually happen.

  71. Frank

    Short of a trade that netted us Dwight Howard, I’m glad we stayed pat this trading deadline. There really has been way too much flux on this team in the last 10 years. Continuity is good even for its own sake – look at the model franchises in any sport – the best ones don’t blow everything up every few years just for the sake of it.

    Let’s see what Woodson can do. I didn’t realize he was a NYK draft pick in the early 80s! Anyway he has a good coaching pedigree – Bob Knight, Larry Brown – coaches who always held their players accountable and were big on attention to detail. Even if it’s uglyball, those qualities were what were definitely missing with D’Antoni. Let’s see if it helps.

  72. Caleb

    Brian Cronin: Hill is a free agent, isn’t he? So they’d have the cap room no matter what if they want it . Dealing him now is for the picks.

    Drafted in ’09, right? So he would have another year to go, right?

  73. Brian Cronin

    Drafted in ’09, right? So he would have another year to go, right?

    They had an option. I don’t believe they picked it up. So he’s a restricted free agent, I think.

  74. BigBlueAL

    art vandelay:
    I think, unfortunately, Granger hit a game winner in Indiana to beat the Knicks over Melo in another game last season if memory serves me well (though the Melo game winner over Granger came later in the season, so it was sort of revenge).

    Yeah he hit a game-winner but it wasnt over Melo (believe it was on Shawne Williams or Jeffries). Melo tied the game with a layup right before Granger hit the game-winner if I remember correctly.

  75. art vandelay

    @93: Yes, you are correct come to think of it…it was over Shawne Williams now that I think of it…a bit sick (not in a good way…haha!) that we recall the final plays with such detail I think.

  76. Bruno Almeida

    ruruland: lmao… melo has two game-winners in Granger’s eye.

    Historically abused him, too.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=anthoca01&p2=grangda01

    and being better than Granger means exactly what?

    an overrated guy being better than an even worse guy is no big news.

    Washington so far did it best imo, getting rid of all the dumb / lazy guys and getting a guy who’s overpaid but pretty good is a nice thing.

    now they only have to rid themselves of Rashard and Blatche, which shouldn’t be that hard, and they are in a pretty promising place going forward.

  77. art vandelay

    Speaking of Williams, his decision to sign with New Jersey over us really seems to be working out for him (basketball-wise, at least).

  78. nicos

    Well, at least Felton, Hill, Randolph, and Mozgov should all be readily available this summer- If only we had the cap space to sign them all!

  79. Brian Cronin

    Ha! Randolph has really had some tough luck with coaches. Three straight hardass coaches. It’d be hilarious if he ended up in Denver. Karl would be another coach who guaranteed would not play him, either.

    Who here mentioned the Clippers for D’Antoni? That’s actually a pretty good fit.

  80. TelegraphedPass

    Overpaid isn’t the problem. Roles are more important. So many posters waste bandwidth yelling about how fat and overpaid Melo is and comparing him to other fat and overpaid guys, but the important matter is how these guys fit on their team. KG isn’t worth $20m this year but he fits well on that team. Same reason Joe Johnson was overpaid. Atlanta didn’t ACTUALLY think he was worth a billion dollars, but that it’s worth that money to keep his utility in ATL.

  81. Caleb

    Brian Cronin:
    Double-checked. Yeah, Houston has an option for next year that they declined to pick up. So he’d be a free agent at the end of the season.

    How does that work? I thought you only hit the option after 2 years.. And had to pick it up for 2 more. Guess not.

    Guess they got a pick instead of just letting him walk.

    Interesting you think of rick adelman as a hardass. I think of him more as a players coach. Either way, my favorite coach in the league. Always gets more out of his roster than you think, his teams always play beautifuflly together – he loves the good-passing big man. Those portland and sacto teams two of the most fun ever.

  82. Brian Cronin

    “Hardass” is likely the wrong word. Perhaps “uncompromising?” They are all coaches that have a very specific idea of how a basketball player should act and if a player differentiates from that, they’re going to ostracize them. If you go to Minnesota blogs, while they love Adelman (as well they should, as he is a great coach) they note how stubborn he can be about the players he likes. Unlike, say, D’Antoni, Adelman will at least meet players with a blank slate (he doesn’t come in with a chip on his shoulder) but once he’s made up his mind on a player, it is basically made up for good. And certain types of players do not appeal to his sensibilities. Anthony Randolph is never going to be that type of player. JR Smith is never going to be that type of player. Nate Robinson is never going to be that type of player. And far too often, coaches will sort of wash their hands of these players. Then you’ll find a coach (typically one who has nothing to lose) who is willing to give these players a real shot, and they’ll surprise you.

    George Karl, for instance, would jerk JR Smith around constantly because he had a problem with the way Smith carried himself. It was annoying, because Smith (despite his time in New York so far) is a very good player.

    Similarly, if one of these coaches likes you, then they’ll stick by you until the end. Adelman can be your best friend in the world. He has resurrected a number of careers over the years.

  83. ruruland

    http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/7692397/new-york-knicks-mike-woodson-says-offense-run-amare-stoudemire-carmelo-anthony

    “Thursday was Woodson’s first chance to implement some of his own offensive sets, which involved more off-the-ball movement in the halfcourt as opposed to D’Antoni’s system, which was predicated on pick and rolls and pushing the pace.”

    For those who think 4 out is a player movement offense. The biggest priority is to maintain space.

  84. ruruland

    Bruno Almeida: and being better than Granger means exactly what?

    an overrated guy being better than an even worse guy is no big news.

    Washington so far did it best imo, getting rid of all the dumb / lazy guys and getting a guy who’s overpaid but pretty good is a nice thing.

    now they only have to rid themselves of Rashard and Blatche, which shouldn’t be that hard, and they are in a pretty promising place going forward.

    Yes, Granger and Melo are horrible NBA players.

  85. BigBlueAL

    “It’s everybody’s ballclub,” Woodson said after practice Thursday. “I want everybody to feel comfortable. When I put a guy in the game, he’s got a shot. I want him to feel comfortable about making that shot. But I want everybody to know, when it comes to nut-cutting time and I’ve got a big shot, I’m going to Melo and Amare and guys that have done it.

    “A lot of these guys are still young and they’re trying to figure it out. Those guys have been around the block a number of times and they’ve done it, so they’ll be the go-to-guys down stretch.”

    You gotta love a coach who talks about nut-cutting time. This definitely signals the end of Linsanity and I might have to cut him from my fantasy team come fantasy playoff time lol

  86. Robert Silverman

    Ugh. I don’t know about anyone else, but this is all so depressing. I hate that MD’A’s gone. I hate Melo’s utter inability to (at least in print) realize that’s he’s at fault. I hate that Lin’s role is going to be minimized. It’s just wrong. I’ll say it here and now. This will not work. We’re doomed. For the first time in 30-odd years of rooting for this team, I almost want to walk away. No “savior”, even Phil Jackson can fix the basic rottenness and stupidity at the core of this team — James Dolan.

  87. jon abbey

    Robert Silverman:
    No “savior”, even Phil Jackson can fix the basic rottenness and stupidity at the core of this team — James Dolan.

    well, yeah, that’s been the case for the last decade.

    but I do like that D’Antoni is gone, and I am more optimistic than I was two days ago. less Lin is good with me too.

  88. er

    So r u a Knick fan or a mda/Lin fan

    Robert Silverman:
    Ugh. I don’t know about anyone else, but this is all so depressing. I hate that MD’A’s gone. I hate Melo’s utter inability to (at least in print) realize that’s he’s at fault. I hate that Lin’s role is going to be minimized. It’s just wrong. I’ll say it here and now. This will not work. We’re doomed. For the first time in 30-odd years of rooting for this team, I almost want to walk away. No “savior”, even Phil Jackson can fix the basic rottenness and stupidity at the core of this team — James Dolan.

  89. BigBlueAL

    Robert Silverman:
    Ugh. I don’t know about anyone else, but this is all so depressing. I hate that MD’A’s gone. I hate Melo’s utter inability to (at least in print) realize that’s he’s at fault. I hate that Lin’s role is going to be minimized. It’s just wrong. I’ll say it here and now. This will not work. We’re doomed. For the first time in 30-odd years of rooting for this team, I almost want to walk away. No “savior”, even Phil Jackson can fix the basic rottenness and stupidity at the core of this team — James Dolan.

    I feel you but this team is talented enough now and should be for the next few years that at the least they should become a perennial playoff team for the next few years which sure is better than the previous decade (I believe they will make the playoffs this season and easily do so the next couple of years regardless of who is coach). But reaching championship contending level yeah its hard to see that happening anytime soon unfortunately.

  90. BigBlueAL

    jon abbey: well, yeah, that’s been the case for the last decade.

    but I do like that D’Antoni is gone, and I am more optimistic than I was two days ago. less Lin is good with me too.

    Less Lin for more Baron Davis bricks is not that good. I like BD and have no problems with him getting 15-20 mins a game but he is such a horrible shooter its a problem to me if he starts getting the majority of the PG mins. Plus Davis has no future with this team and Lin does so it would be nice to let Lin play and hopefully see him improve in the future.

  91. er

    sure but you are depressed about mda leaving and Lin
    Havin a smaller role…let’s see how it goes in the next week

    Robert Silverman: Did you miss the part where I said I’ve been a fan for 30 years, aka before Lin was born.

  92. Robert Silverman

    BigBlueAL: I feel you but this team is talented enough now and should be for the next few years that at the least they should become a perennial playoff team for the next few years which sure is better than the previous decade (I believe they will make the playoffs this season and easily do so the next couple of years regardless of who is coach).But reaching championship contending level yeah its hard to see that happening anytime soon unfortunately.

    Nothing I say is going to be wholly rational at this point. I just feel betrayed. I’m angry at this team but more so at myself b/c I invested emotionally in people who don’t deserve it.

  93. Robert Silverman

    er:
    sure but you are depressed about mda leaving and LinHavin a smaller role…let’s see how it goes in the next week

    It’s not just about Lin and D’Antoni — they’re just the latest in a string of chronically stupid, short-sighted choices. My point is even if they win a few games it doesn’t matter because they’ll still screw up the next decision in mind-bogglingly awful ways. This is an endemic issue. Lin, MD’A, Melo, Stat, whomever — what style they play or how the team does or doesn’t respond to Woodson is all just polishing the brass on the Titanic. We’re rotten at the core. And I’m wondering whether it’s worth it for me, at this point to continue to care about a team that by definition is going to kick me in the balls in the end

  94. er

    K if that’s how ya feel

    Robert Silverman: It’s not just about Lin and D’Antoni — they’re just the latest in a string of chronically stupid, short-sighted decisions.

  95. er

    You can try the Lakers they are pretty well run

    Robert Silverman: It’s not just about Lin and D’Antoni — they’re just the latest in a string of chronically stupid, short-sighted choices. My point is even if they win a few games it doesn’t matter because they’ll still screw up the next decision in mind-bogglingly awful ways. This is an endemic issue. Lin, MD’A, Melo, Stat, whomever — what style they play or how the team does or doesn’t respond to Woodson is all just polishing the brass on the Titanic. We’re rotten at the core. And I’m wondering whether it’s worth it for me, at this point to continue to care about a team that by definition is going to kick me in the balls in the end

  96. BigBlueAL

    This is why being a die-hard Yankee fan as well is a blessing, helps me deal with the Knicks alot easier lol

  97. er

    I concur lol poor met fans

    BigBlueAL:
    This is why being a die-hard Yankee fan as well is a blessing, helps me deal with the Knicks alot easier lol

  98. jon abbey

    Robert Silverman: It’s not just about Lin and D’Antoni — they’re just the latest in a string of chronically stupid, short-sighted choices. My point is even if they win a few games it doesn’t matter because they’ll still screw up the next decision in mind-bogglingly awful ways. This is an endemic issue. Lin, MD’A, Melo, Stat, whomever — what style they play or how the team does or doesn’t respond to Woodson is all just polishing the brass on the Titanic. We’re rotten at the core. And I’m wondering whether it’s worth it for me, at this point to continue to care about a team that by definition is going to kick me in the balls in the end

    so let’s try to do something about it: http://www.facebook.com/OccupyMSG

  99. jon abbey

    BigBlueAL: Less Lin for more Baron Davis bricks is not that good.I like BD and have no problems with him getting 15-20 mins a game but he is such a horrible shooter its a problem to me if he starts getting the majority of the PG mins.Plus Davis has no future with this team and Lin does so it would be nice to let Lin play and hopefully see him improve in the future.

    they’re both going to play, they’re both probably going to get at least 20 minutes a game, so it’s a pretty minor argument

    and agreed about being a Yankee fan, it definitely helps and we welcome all aboard.

  100. ruruland

    Robert Silverman: It’s not just about Lin and D’Antoni — they’re just the latest in a string of chronically stupid, short-sighted choices. My point is even if they win a few games it doesn’t matter because they’ll still screw up the next decision in mind-bogglingly awful ways. This is an endemic issue. Lin, MD’A, Melo, Stat, whomever — what style they play or how the team does or doesn’t respond to Woodson is all just polishing the brass on the Titanic. We’re rotten at the core. And I’m wondering whether it’s worth it for me, at this point to continue to care about a team that by definition is going to kick me in the balls in the end

    A lot of successful teams have had internal strife. It doesn’t always lead to a coach getting fired or a player being traded, but there are a ton of guys who’s legacies aren;t negatively affected for these kinds of things.

  101. Will the Thrill

    LOL always striving for ways to make Melo look good.

    ruruland: This. Total waste of talent. His feet, length and strength, along with skills as 14 foot shooter and passer (hand size) — could have been a GREAT player.

    Didn’t have the head for it.

  102. Tony Pena

    BigBlueAL:
    This is why being a die-hard Yankee fan as well is a blessing, helps me deal with the Knicks alot easier lol

    And a Giants fan. Just signed Martellus Bennet, and resigned Terrell Thomas and a bunch of other young cornerbacks. And I’m sure they’re going to have a solid draft as usual. Now that’s a well run franchise. And hey there’s hope Tisch strikes me as a little slimey in a Dolan kind of way.

  103. Will the Thrill

    Yeah it’s not like we are going anywhere this year so why not let Lin play and improve? Our best case scenario is 8th seed vs. Miami/Chicago. Scratch that, our best case scenario is getting the 5th draft pick. So maybe they should start Bibby o_O

    BigBlueAL: Less Lin for more Baron Davis bricks is not that good.I like BD and have no problems with him getting 15-20 mins a game but he is such a horrible shooter its a problem to me if he starts getting the majority of the PG mins.Plus Davis has no future with this team and Lin does so it would be nice to let Lin play and hopefully see him improve in the future.

  104. jon abbey

    maybe I’m crazy, but I think this team at full strength could have a puncher’s chance against Chicago, who would have all of the pressure on them. Miami would probably be pretty ugly, though.

  105. BigBlueAL

    Tony Pena: And a Giants fan. Just signed Martellus Bennet, and resigned Terrell Thomas and a bunch of other young cornerbacks. And I’m sure they’re going to have a solid draft as usual. Now that’s a well run franchise. And hey there’s hope Tisch strikes me as a little slimey in a Dolan kind of way.

    Im a Giants fan too but I have much greater love for baseball/basketball plus to me its alot more fun being fans of those sports because of the long season and day-to-day aspect of them.

    To me football is fun on Sundays during the fall/winter but thats all it is for me, something to watch on Sundays and thats it. I dont get anywhere near caught up in the off-season and draft stuff. Nothing like NBA and MLB trade deadline stuff and off-season free agency/trade talk.

  106. BigBlueAL

    jon abbey:
    maybe I’m crazy, but I think this team at full strength could have a puncher’s chance against Chicago, who would have all of the pressure on them. Miami would probably be pretty ugly, though.

    A puncher’s chance of winning 1 game. The more I watch of the Bulls and Heat I actually think the Heat would be an “easier” matchup in terms of maybe making a series out of it (winning 2 or 3 games). The Bulls are just so mentally/physically tough and deep.

  107. Will the Thrill

    I kind of agree, but that is if we are playing to our full potential, and we have been underperforming basically all year.

    jon abbey:
    maybe I’m crazy, but I think this team at full strength could have a puncher’s chance against Chicago, who would have all of the pressure on them. Miami would probably be pretty ugly, though.

  108. ruruland

    Will the Thrill:
    LOL always striving for ways to make Melo look good.

    Ha. It’s true though.

    Nene could have been a great player. As it turns out, he was just a very efficient player alongisde Melo and Chauncey/Iverson, and very average when his usage increased and good looks decreased.

  109. ruruland

    Will the Thrill:
    I kind of agree, but that is if we are playing to our full potential, and we have been underperforming basically all year.

    But what team has been underperforming? Too many iterations to count. IMO, the season just started and you’ve got a whole team ready to blow off the frustration of the first 3 months for the next three months.

  110. BigBlueAL

    Problem also is making the playoffs right now is still probably at best a 50-50 bet. The Bucks are going to be tough to shake down the stretch especially now that they have Ellis and a much easier schedule down the stretch. Plus they are already 2-0 vs the Knicks with 2 games remaining so they win 1 of them and the tie-breaker is their’s (not to mention they have a better conference record too).

  111. Bruno Almeida

    ruruland: Yes, Granger and Melo are horrible NBA players.

    never said they were horrible, only that they were massively overrated.

    and I doubt you can respond decently to this claim without resorting to sarcasm.

  112. nicos

    BigBlueAL:
    This is why being a die-hard Yankee fan as well is a blessing, helps me deal with the Knicks alot easier lol

    I’d say the Knicks have been pretty much exactly like the Yankees of the 80’s who figured the best way to get better was to just throw big money at big names because that always works, right?

  113. BigBlueAL

    The funny part is as a little kid it was funner being a Knicks fan lol

    I didnt root for a Yankee playoff team until 1995 (although they were very good in 1993 and 1994 until the strike) where as the first Knicks team I remember following/rooting for was the 1990 team that beat the Celtics in the playoffs. I assumed Id see the Knicks win a championship before the Yankees which is pretty absurd to think about now lol

  114. daJudge

    Robert, sure, maybe Melo isn’t the player he is hyped up to be. The organization has made mistakes. But the rot that you are referring to may be a product, at least in part, of a coach who is wedded or welded to a system. To me, success is based on wins, not how you win. You know it’s funny. I remember reading that D’Antoni would not institute a zone because the players did not have enough time to learn the defense. Really? But all these guys should simply be able to play his offense, without a decent point guard, without a training camp. Why, because to him it is a priori sound. Melo, who has balled deep for his whole life should instantly adapt to his system, not question it and rock it too. But these folks can’t play a rudimentary zone defense. This never made sense to me and I’m glad we have a new approach, less dogmatic and more based on our player’s strengths. Robert, give it a chance.

  115. nicos

    ruruland:
    http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/7692397/new-york-knicks-mike-woodson-says-offense-run-amare-stoudemire-carmelo-anthony

    “Thursday was Woodson’s first chance to implement some of his own offensive sets, which involved more off-the-ball movement in the halfcourt as opposed to D’Antoni’s system, which was predicated on pick and rolls and pushing the pace.”

    For those who think 4 out is a player movement offense. The biggest priority is to maintain space.

    To be fair to D’A he ran tons of weakside cuts off of screen and rolls- it’s generally a three man play with two kick-out guys staying in place. And he varied both where the screens were set and cuts came from enough that it was very hard to defend. Generally speaking, unless you’re running the weave, you’re not going to have 5 guys moving once you’re in your set. There are plenty of obvious tweaks that would be great- Some more back screens for cutters would be nice for a start.
    But the bottom line is you have two fantastic roll guys and two pretty good point guards to get them the ball- Melo’s iso’s or even his post-ups have never and will never be as efficient a play as getting the ball to either Chandler or Amar’e in the pnr. Melo’s been great this year as the ball-handler in the pnr- something he didn’t do that much under Karl- and he should be doing more of that and they should also certainly be mixing more post-ups for him as match-ups allow but if Woodson goes back to Iso-Melo, that’s a bad decision.

  116. Tony Pena

    Might be sacrilegious to say here, but I think football is the perfect sport. Parity between most teams, a true “unit working together” sport, and such a short season that every play is magnified. Momentum is huge. Coaching is huge and very complex. Baseball is 40 games too long. Anyhow, knicks are def the team that I’m most attached to. Least rewarding too, lol. But I think Brian said it if you can live through the Isaiah years… Maybe I’m a little optimistic but the last egregious mistake from the knicks was the botching of the Melo trade. And I guess the Jordan Hill pick. Everything else has been pretty competent, at least. Again, I guess compared to previous years and having a real franchise to root for makes it easier.

    And about well run franchises, did the Lakers make out again or what?

  117. daJudge

    Tony Pena, no guaranteed contracts in the NFL, big, big difference IMO. It’s kind of like not having a union. Can you imagine the pressures on the players in such a dangerous sport. Also, one more thing about D’Antoni… I think he earned $24 million over four years. Jon, I hope the occupy movement addresses his compensation.

  118. Tony Pena

    I also think MDA was mainly brought here for respectability after the Isaiah debacle. When they finally were done with horrible contracts, and had a chance to start getting him players to fit his system, that requires very specific skill sets, (the last two seasons I think), the only player that really fits that mold seems to be Amare. One of the most amazing thing in sports to me is that even though ownership, management, coaching and players change, somehow identity still seeps through, decade after decade. Hiring a Knicks coach that is offense first? With a *respectable* defense? Hmm that was fishy since the beginning.

  119. Tony Pena

    daJudge:
    Tony Pena, no guaranteed contracts in the NFL, big, big difference IMO.It’s kind of like not having a union.Can you imagine the pressures on the players in such a dangerous sport.Also, one more thing about D’Antoni… I think he earned $24 million over four years.Jon, I hope the occupy movement addresses his compensation.

    That and franchise tagging are the sports’ biggest flaws I think.

  120. thailandvc

    +100. wtf, didn’t we try that shit already? like the beginning of the season?

    these “stars” are fucken pathetic. so the real reason MDA got canned is stars want to be stars. they probably tanked the games.

    so what happens when they still dont win?

    “Amare Stoudemire said on Thursday that Mike Woodson’s offense will now focus more on superstars like Carmelo Anthony and Stoudemire, and not so much on Jeremy Lin.
    “He’s going to utilize his leading scoerers, myself and Carmelo,” Stoudemire said. “Make sure he takes advantage of every opportunity on the court. We’ve been profound scorers all our careers. He wants to make sure we take advantage of that.””

    Robert Silverman:
    Ugh. I don’t know about anyone else, but this is all so depressing. I hate that MD’A’s gone. I hate Melo’s utter inability to (at least in print) realize that’s he’s at fault. I hate that Lin’s role is going to be minimized. It’s just wrong. I’ll say it here and now. This will not work. We’re doomed. For the first time in 30-odd years of rooting for this team, I almost want to walk away. No “savior”, even Phil Jackson can fix the basic rottenness and stupidity at the core of this team — James Dolan.

  121. jon abbey

    yeah, I like the NFL too, but football is a fundamentally sick game, guys can get paralyzed for life on legal plays. playing baseball or hoops doesn’t take a decade or two off the end of people’s lives on average, so I wouldn’t go trumpeting football as the perfect sport myself.

    but I agree about recent personnel moves, Grunwald has been doing a shockingly good job. in an odd way, it gives me hope for Woodson, who was brought in under similar circumstances, a guy with prior experience who no one thought would actually end up in the job here.

  122. Tony Pena

    I’m a little ashamed to say that it’s part of the thrill, the danger. But def hoops by the best teams is beautiful in a class all by itself, I guess why MDA and his “ball movement/team” ideals have such a hard following here. Me I just want my team to beat the other team.

  123. daJudge

    I hope it’s OK to digress. But football, what a sport, right Tony P.? The very day the Giant’s won their first Superbowl against the Pats, my oldest girl Roxy turned 21. The whole family watched the game together in front of my fireplace. The next day, without asking permission, that crazy girl went out and inked “NY Giants” to the back of her neck in Big Blue. It’s the only tat I have ever liked. Sometimes I think the Knicks, at times, need more of a football player mentality/approach. Is it possible though? I think the guaranteed contract effects effort big time, except for guys like JJ. How many of us would act differently than the majority of NBA players? To me, that is one of the reasons a coach is really important in this league and I would disagree with those that diminish the coach’s importance. How do you motivate millionaires to sacrifice? Appealing to their rationality, which I think Mike really tried, might not be the best approach. They have already earned their $$$$. It could easily and, IMO, rationally be argued that the player should ride it out, hedge his bets, or whatever, but not put themselves at risk. I would be interested in hearing other approaches that could motivate players. Of course, highly compensated stars are the biggest challenge of all. Maybe that’s why Phil is the guy. What do you think?

  124. Z-man

    Now, now, Robert, some of your best writing has been drirooted in Knicks-driven despair and frustration.

    Look, I get that the owner is a sloth. There is no defending him. But D’Antoni? Nice guy and all but hardly above criticism. He was paid $24 million over 4 years and could have taken less to go to Chicago. Dolan was no secret to him. Nobody promised him that he would be GM and coach. Bottom line is, he was no Red Holzman.

  125. villainx

    I take it more from Woodson saying they’ll go to Stat and Melo more as just talk to get them to buy in. I don’t see anything wrong with that.

    If anything, I think D’Antoni didn’t figure out that he had make clear to the team that Stat and Melo were still prominent parts of the system. Felt like the talk was always getting the stars to fit into the system, versus finding ways for the stars to shine in the system. Woodson seems to be just emphasizing the latter.

    And I know Phil Jackson is a genius and everything, but I am not a big fan of his.

  126. Tony Pena

    daJudge:
    I hope it’s OK to digress.But football, what a sport, right Tony P.?

    Maybe that’s why Phil is the guy.What do you think?

    Its electrifying, play-by-play. There’s a good chance I’m talking out my ass, but imho you absolutely have to be a manipulator, motivator, psychologist, teacher, leader to be one of the best. X n Os? Taking a bird’s eye view, are systems really that different? There’s not that many “revolutionaries” at one time. Grossly oversimplifying make designs that’ll put you in an advantage. But they all borrow from each other anyway.

  127. Z-man

    Caleb: That is dead-on, in terms of describing his coaching. I never really buy the “have to have a certain personality to make it in NY.” Win, and everyone revises history. Case in point: Eli Manning.

    True. The NBA is a player’s league, more accurately a star’s league. Coaches and systems matter, but very few coaches can turn a good team into a great one. More likely, a bad coach can screw up a good team.

    A great example is KC Jones, do you really think he had much to do with the Celts’ success? He mainly just stayed out of the way. Doc Rivers lost 18 games in a row in Orlando and was widely rumored to be dumped by the Celts at the first sign of trouble in Big 3 year#1. Ever listen to him in the huddle? All inspiration, no strategy. On the other hand, Paul Westhead tried to impose a system on the Lakers that conflicted with Magic’s psyche. Bring in a complete novice in Pat Riley and voila, dynasty.

    For now, Woodson just has to let the stars define the team and tailor the game plan to them. Then let the press and the fans do the dirty work.

  128. Z-man

    A good hypothetical is: Do the Bulls, Lakers or Spurs win as many titles they did with D’Antoni instead of Phil1, Phil2 or Pop? It’s intriguing because none of those teams strke me as being particularly SSoL-friendly, but they had enough superstar power to make anything work. My guess is that those teams underachieve and the players tire of him and his system.

  129. jon abbey

    wow, this is fantastic news!

    Howard Beck ? @HowardBeckNYT

    Nothing official yet, but Woodson looking to add Darrell Walker to staff. Also plans to hire his former HS coach, Bill Smith, in some role.

    love the Walker hire if it happens, a fantastic defensive guard, the kind of coach I was calling for a few months ago when I suggested Ron Harper (and maybe Walker too?).

  130. ruruland

    nicos: To be fair to D’A he ran tons of weakside cuts off of screen and rolls- it’s generally a three man play with two kick-out guys staying in place. And he varied both where the screens were set and cuts came from enough that it was very hard to defend. Generally speaking, unless you’re running the weave, you’re not going to have 5 guys moving once you’re in your set. There are plenty of obvious tweaks that would be great- Some more back screens for cutters would be nice for a start.But the bottom line is you have two fantastic roll guys and two pretty good point guards to get them the ball- Melo’s iso’s or even his post-ups have never and will never be as efficient a play as getting the ball to either Chandler or Amar’e in the pnr. Melo’s been great this year as the ball-handler in the pnr- something he didn’t do that much under Karl- and he should be doing more of that and they should also certainly be mixing more post-ups for him as match-ups allow but if Woodson goes back to Iso-Melo, that’s a bad decision.

    Mixing it up is the key.

    When you only look at Melo iso’s through his personal stats, which by themselves over the last 7 years prior to this one were good from an efficiency standpoint, you’re missing out a huge part of the picture.

    ISO can create better opportunities, at times, than the pnr, it’s just that a much higher percentage of the stats in the pnr are tied up between the ballhandler and the roller.

    The effectiveness of an isolation is more like a sequence of dominoes falling, only the last dominoe lays by itslef, but it was created by the original tilting of the floor,which creates the penetration, which creates the open shot….

    Melo causes the potential energy, and like a spring, his teammates use it to create kinetic energy.

  131. nicos

    Z-man:
    A good hypothetical is: Do the Bulls, Lakers or Spurs win as many titles they did with D’Antoni instead of Phil1, Phil2 or Pop? It’sintriguing because none of those teams strke me as being particularly SSoL-friendly, but they had enough superstar power to make anything work. My guess is thatthose teams underachieve and the players tire of him and his system.

    Before this year I’m not sure if you could say any of D’A’s teams underachieved. Not sure if any team overachieved either. Still it’s an interesting question, I think he would have done fine with the Lakers and probably the Bulls. The Spurs I’m not sure about.

  132. ruruland

    Bruno Almeida: never said they were horrible, only that they were massively overrated.and I doubt you can respond decently to this claim without resorting to sarcasm.

    But overrated by whom, James Dolan? Certainly no one on this board, certainly no one in the media at this point. Give it a rest.

    That’s likea 63% TS on really high will a solid to/assist rate against what somebelieve is one of the better wing defenders in the NBA.

    Who overrates Granger? He’s a good player, never made an all-star team. He’s probably the best playerona really good team this year.

    And people say I’m redundant.

  133. ruruland

    nicos: Before this year I’m not sure if you could say any of D’A’s teams underachieved. Not sure if any team overachieved either. Still it’s an interesting question, I think he would have done fine with the Lakers and probably the Bulls. The Spurs I’m not sure about.

    You think MDA’s offense would work with the Lakers? Kobe would hate it. The bigs are antithesis, and they’ve had traingle point guards. It would be an epic disaster.

    The current iteration of the Spurs runs a similar offense.

    The Bulls would look good with it.

  134. BigBlueAL

    jon abbey:
    wow, this is fantastic news!

    Howard Beck ? @HowardBeckNYT

    Nothing official yet, but Woodson looking to add Darrell Walker to staff. Also plans to hire his former HS coach, Bill Smith, in some role.

    love the Walker hire if it happens, a fantastic defensive guard, the kind of coach I was calling for a few months ago when I suggested Ron Harper (and maybe Walker too?).

    Yes!! The Knicks just hired an asst coach with a career NBA head coaching record of 56-113!! Sorry for the sarcasm :-)

    I will say at least Woodson is being allowed to bring in a couple of his own asst coaches which is good for him I guess.

  135. KnicksFanInVA

    Oden waived by Portland. What a couple of days for the Blazers. 42 point loss, fired their coach, clear the roster, waive the #1 overall pick. Damn.

  136. ruruland

    villainx: I take it more from Woodson saying they’ll go to Stat and Melo more as just talk to get them to buy in. I don’t see anything wrong with that. If anything, I think D’Antoni didn’t figure out that he had make clear to the team that Stat and Melo were still prominent parts of the system. Felt like the talk was always getting the stars to fit into the system, versus finding ways for the stars to shine in the system. Woodson seems to be just emphasizing the latter.And I know Phil Jackson is a genius and everything, but I am not a big fan of his.

    Nice post.

    I don’t understand why so many people find this perspective unreasonable. It’s always a two way street; has been for decades.

  137. BigBlueAL

    nicos: Before this year I’m not sure if you could say any of D’A’s teams underachieved.Not sure if any team overachieved either.Still it’s an interesting question, I think he would have done fine with the Lakers and probably the Bulls.The Spurs I’m not sure about.

    The Clippers next season will win 55 games with D’Antoni as head coach. Book it.

  138. ruruland

    BigBlueAL: Problem also is making the playoffs right now is still probably at best a 50-50 bet. The Bucks are going to be tough to shake down the stretch especially now that they have Ellis and a much easier schedule down the stretch. Plus they are already 2-0 vs the Knicks with 2 games remaining so they win 1 of them and the tie-breaker is their’s (not to mention they have a better conference record too).

    Just wait.

  139. Z-man

    Fair enough. My point is that certain coaches seem to bring out the best in less talented but more system-friendly teams (Pitino with the Bomb Squad knicks comes to mind) while others do their best work with superstar-centric teams (Doc Rivers, Riley, Phil although he never really coached a bad team). I wonder, for example, how D’antoni would do with the current (or championship) Heat, or with last year’s Mavs.

  140. BigBlueAL

    ruruland: Just wait.

    You have been saying this for awhile. Time is running out :-)

    All Im saying is the Knicks could finish on a nice run (say 14-9 to finish at .500 for the season) but the Bucks seem like now they are capable of doing the same. Thats the problem. If the Knicks still had a 2 game cushion or so I wouldnt be worried about a playoff spot at all but thats not the case. Plus they buried themselves in such a hole again that the 7th/6th seeds are out of range despite the Celtics and Hawks not being that far above .500.

  141. ruruland

    nicos: To be fair to D’A he ran tons of weakside cuts off of screen and rolls- it’s generally a three man play with two kick-out guys staying in place. And he varied both where the screens were set and cuts came from enough that it was very hard to defend. Generally speaking, unless you’re running the weave, you’re not going to have 5 guys moving once you’re in your set. There are plenty of obvious tweaks that would be great- Some more back screens for cutters would be nice for a start.But the bottom line is you have two fantastic roll guys and two pretty good point guards to get them the ball- Melo’s iso’s or even his post-ups have never and will never be as efficient a play as getting the ball to either Chandler or Amar’e in the pnr. Melo’s been great this year as the ball-handler in the pnr- something he didn’t do that much under Karl- and he should be doing more of that and they should also certainly be mixing more post-ups for him as match-ups allow but if Woodson goes back to Iso-Melo, that’s a bad decision.

    Are you talking about sidepick and rolls?

    Good video of a really synthesized version of MDA’s offense, 4-out, explained by the man himself

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ga49vPn2ao&feature=related

    Maintaining spacing is a top priority. A lot of other offense employ more action.

  142. JK47

    I think the Bucks will actually be worse with Monta Ellis. Brandon Jennings and Monta Ellis is an Isiah Thomas backcourt. All Monta Ellis is going to do is on the Bucks is take FGA away from more efficient players.

  143. BigBlueAL

    This is why I am extremely curious to see these next 2 games vs a pretty good Pacers team. I could see them going 2-0, 1-1, or 0-2 all the same. If they go 2-0 then I will be firmly back on the bandwagon lol

  144. 2FOR18

    Ben R: You gotta love Portland cleanng house getting draft picks. A second and two young players (admittedly busts but very young) for Camby and a first and expirings for Wallace. Thats the way you do it, you see the writing and you cash in as many assets as possible before you get nothing for them.

    And when they pass on Harrison Barnes for a center who walks with a limp, the rebuilding will have begun!

  145. BigBlueAL

    JK47:
    I think the Bucks will actually be worse with Monta Ellis.Brandon Jennings and Monta Ellis is an Isiah Thomas backcourt.All Monta Ellis is going to do is on the Bucks is take FGA away from more efficient players.

    Could be true and I hope you are right.

  146. JK47

    ruruland: Just wait.

    I’ve been waiting so long for this team to turn it around, both Godot AND Guffman have turned up. You are truly one of the more “glass half full” people I have ever encountered. I admire your can-do attitude– I seriously mean that– but it’s becoming a very difficult position to defend.

  147. BigBlueAL

    I blame MDA leaving on Paul Pierce. If he misses that 3pter at the end of the game the Knicks dont lose 6 in a row. Screw Paul Pierce lol

  148. d-mar

    Circle your calendars folks. Monday 3/26 Bucks vs. Knicks at MSG. May be a game that determines whether we make the playoffs or not. (sorry to look so far ahead, just schedule surfing)

  149. ruruland

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPSpvdpnxUw&feature=related

    Corner guys job is to wait for open shots. Sometimes move parrallel to penetration, an occasional back-cut when the ball is reversed.

    With a really aware point guard that corner play can get a ton of openshots. That’s not Lin at this point.So, forthe most part, the corner guy’s job is to be a spectator most of the time.

    Fields played the slot when Melo was in the game. And the slot gets many of the side pick androlls.

    Hopefully the still runa good amount of this play, but if you run it toomuch you freeze guys who need to touch the ball, out of the offense.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPSpvdpnxUw&feature=related

  150. Owen

    It’s moronic to write this, but my friend’s buddy lives in the same building as SAS. Apparently SAS told him in the elevator two days ago that D’Antoni was going to be fired and Jackson is going to be the coach next year.

    I know, I know. It feels dirty to repeat anything that man says.

    Like Jon, I can’t agree football is the perfect sport. The toll on human life is just too high. I think there is a small backlash coming, although it will still be the top sport in the country….

    Crazy trade deadline, so much to agree and disagree with up above, but going to watch some hoops instead in the comfort of my mother’s basement….

  151. ruruland

    ruruland: Are you talking about sidepick and rolls?Good video of a really synthesized version of MDA’s offense, 4-out, explained by the man himself

    Never mind I wasn’t paying enough attention to what you wrote. They do utilize a third guy some in action that complements the pnr….

    But those corner guys, yeah they’re asked to be statues.

  152. jon abbey

    they definitely need to sweep these Pacers games, they need to get back to .500 as soon as possible.

    BigBlueAL:
    I blame MDA leaving on Paul Pierce.If he misses that 3pter at the end of the game the Knicks dont lose 6 in a row.Screw Paul Pierce lol

    I know most NBA coaches don’t do it, but that one is still on D’Antoni for not fouling before that up 3, less than 10 seconds to go and Boston out of time outs. the beginning of the end…

  153. ruruland

    Gallo with another huge night. Nuggets benefit so much from his ability to stay out of the way on offense until he gets a perfect look to keep that efficiency high.

  154. 2FOR18

    ruruland: Right, Nene was a building block in Denver, a guy that led the Nuggets to a conference championship win spite of the Melo isos, he’s having a career year without Melo, so this is really surprising. He was always so tough and reliable.To be fair, I don’t like this move by Denver at all.

    So now any Nugget that makes the news is an excuse for one of you sarcastic Melo posts?

    So tiresome!

  155. jon abbey

    I’d rather hear off-the-record SAS than have to listen to or read his public propaganda, so that’s interesting.

    if the team is going to be built around Melo (and it certainly seems like that is now definite), you have to think Jackson might be the one guy he might actually listen to.

  156. jon abbey

    D’Antoni should get the Clippers job when it opens up, he and Paul are a perfect fit. from Dolan to Sterling, though, whew…

  157. ruruland

    2FOR18: So now any Nugget that makes the news is an excuse for one of you sarcastic Melo posts?So tiresome!

    You honestly think I’m the one who brings Melo’s name up around here. Frankly, I’d be as happy as anyone ifwe talked less about him.

  158. er

    I agree with that but hes public enemy #1 it is what it is Yankee fans no Alll about this…and stat gets jeter treatment even tho he doesnt have the rings

    ruruland: You honestly think I’m the one who brings Melo’s name up around here.Frankly, I’d be as happy as anyone ifwe talked less about him.

  159. ess-dog

    villainx:
    I take it more from Woodson saying they’ll go to Stat and Melo more as just talk to get them to buy in. I don’t see anything wrong with that.

    If anything, I think D’Antoni didn’t figure out that he had make clear to the team that Stat and Melo were still prominent parts of the system. Felt like the talk was always getting the stars to fit into the system, versus finding ways for the stars to shine in the system. Woodson seems to be just emphasizing the latter.

    And I know Phil Jackson is a genius and everything, but I am not a big fan of his.

    I think it will be a relief to just have a generic team for a while, aside from the constant defensive switching which seems to have tapered off.

    It won’t be as pretty as the D’Antoni Suns offense for sure, but I look forward to watching guards be guards, forwards be forwards and Chandler doing his thing in a bread and butter half-court set. The defense could be pretty good depending on the rotations.

    It’s been said before, but this is clearly not a championship team. In retrospect, this team was being built as a Woodson team not a D’Antoni team, starting with the decision to add Chandler, but probably going back to the Melo trade.

    These Knicks feel like those 80’s Hawks teams to me, maybe a bit better offensively, a bit worse defensively. Doc was a better pg than what we have and Chandler is a better center than what they had, but the talent level and half-court style (I expect) seems similar. And there’s a similar 2nd round talent ceiling.

    Frankly, I’m ready to give in and just watch this core for the next three years, if only to enjoy some continuity for a while… without expectations that we’ll win a ring. What were the chances of getting by the Heat anyway? Even if we had Deron and Howard as our core, it’s still less of a team than what the Heat have.

  160. 2FOR18

    ruruland: You honestly think I’m the one who brings Melo’s name up around here. Frankly, I’d be as happy as anyone ifwe talked less about him.

    He has sucked, he’s fat and he’s sabotaged his coach. If he plays the way he has in the past and they win then he will be complimented. We’re fans, not disinterested bystanders like yourself, so allow us our emotions.
    You’re the Neil Young of posters. I love Neil Young, but how about mixing in some Jimi or Stevie Ray?

  161. 2FOR18

    er: I agree with that but hes public enemy #1 it is what it is Yankee fans no Alll about this…and stat gets jeter treatment even tho he doesnt have the rings

    Well ARod came around so there’s hope for Melo!

  162. 2FOR18

    ess-dog: I think it will be a relief to just have a generic team for a while, aside from the constant defensive switching which seems to have tapered off.It won’t be as pretty as the D’Antoni Suns offense for sure, but I look forward to watching guards be guards, forwards be forwards and Chandler doing his thing in a bread and butter half-court set. The defense could be pretty good depending on the rotations.It’s been said before, but this is clearly not a championship team. In retrospect, this team was being built as a Woodson team not a D’Antoni team, starting with the decision to add Chandler, but probably going back to the Melo trade.These Knicks feel like those 80?s Hawks teams to me, maybe a bit better offensively, a bit worse defensively. Doc was a better pg than what we have and Chandler is a better center than what they had, but the talent level and half-court style (I expect) seems similar. And there’s a similar 2nd round talent ceiling.Frankly, I’m ready to give in and just watch this core for the next three years, if only to enjoy some continuity for a while… without expectations that we’ll win a ring. What were the chances of getting by the Heat anyway? Even if we had Deron and Howard as our core, it’s still less of a team than what the Heat have.

    +1

  163. BigBlueAL

    Every time I start believing the Heat are invincible they lose 4 in a row on the road like they have. The Bulls are 3 1/2 games ahead of the Heat and thats with Rose and Deng missing a bunch of games. The Thunder even have a better record than the Heat right now.

    It will be very interesting to see if they break up the Big 3 if they dont win it all this season.

  164. Bruno Almeida

    ruruland: But overrated by whom, James Dolan? Certainly no one on this board, certainly no one in the media at this point. Give it a rest.

    That’s likea 63% TS on really high will a solid to/assist rate against what somebelieve is one of the better wing defenders in the NBA.

    Who overrates Granger? He’s a good player, never made an all-star team. He’s probably the best playerona really good team this year.

    And people say I’m redundant.

    people have overrated Carmelo’s game for 8 years now, that’s evidence enough for me.

    let’s get Phil Jackson next year, keeping Woodson is comitting to long-term mediocrity, aka the worst sin in basketball.

  165. er

    They aren’t that good in the half court…so If you can slow the heat down I think it makes them very human…..if you watch their games the half court offense is basically wade and lebron chucking up shots, some difficult fadeaways and sprinkling in some bosh, they also rely on Anthony and haslem to get offensive boards

    BigBlueAL:
    Every time I start believing the Heat are invincible they lose 4 in a row on the road like they have.The Bulls are 3 1/2 games ahead of the Heat and thats with Rose and Deng missing a bunch of games.The Thunder even have a better record than the Heat right now.

    It will be very interesting to see if they break up the Big 3 if they dont win it all this season.

  166. nicos

    ruruland: Never mind I wasn’t paying enoughattention to what you wrote. They do utilize a third guy some in action that complements the pnr….

    But those corner guys, yeah they’re asked to be statues.

    My point was really to say that D’A’s pnr was no more three guys standing around staring at two than a good iso is four guys staring at one. I know that Melo’s iso’s generate more shots than just Melo’s and Denver made hay on quick ball rotations out of double teams Melo drew. I just think a good pnr also produces a lot of shots beyond the roller getting a shot at the rim. The upside is that shot at the rim is a much higher percentage shot than any iso jumper (and iso’s end up at the rim far less often than pnr’s do). I’m not saying never do it just saying that if Woodson subs in his Iso-Joe offense it’ll be a mistake.

  167. er

    Who has overrated his game maybe you have…he has always been known as a great scorer and a bad defender how is that overtaxing him? I’ve never heard him mentioned as a top five player by anyone but himself sO I don’t understand where you are coming from

    Bruno Almeida: people have overrated Carmelo’s game for 8 years now, that’s evidence enough for me.

    let’s get Phil Jackson next year, keeping Woodson is comitting to long-term mediocrity, aka the worst sin in basketball.

  168. er

    Stupid iPhone…I meant overrating …furthermore I would venture to say stat has been more overrated than melo if anything

    er:
    Who has overrated his game maybe you have…he has always been known as a great scorer and a bad defender how is that overtaxing him? I’ve never heard him mentioned as a top five player by anyone but himself sO I don’t understand where you are coming from

  169. Owen

    This from Hardwood Paroxysm is really good also…

    From True Hoop….

    “Maybe James Dolan realizes that the true problem in New York isn’t bad luck or a vengeful commissioner or any outward influence that may or may not be biased against TEH GREATEST CITY EVAHHHHHH, but a way of thinking that extends beyond a simple Isiah Thomas. Maybe he realizes that it is him, his attraction to the penny-wise headline above the pound-wise hibernation, that adding patch over patch over patch only gives you a very patchy quilt, that the only time his team was somewhat successful was when he allowed a respected professional carry out a respectful long-term plan.”

  170. ruruland

    nicos: My point was really to say that D’A’s pnr was no more three guys standing around staring at two than a good iso is four guys staring at one. I know that Melo’s iso’s generate more shots than just Melo’s and Denver made hay on quick ball rotations out of double teams Melo drew. I just think a good pnr also produces a lot of shots beyond the roller getting a shot at the rim. The upside is that shot at the rim is a much higher percentage shot than any iso jumper (and iso’s end up at the rim far less often than pnr’s do). I’m not saying never do it just saying that if Woodson subs in his Iso-Joe offense it’ll be a mistake.

    OMG.Someone had the stones to admit it!!!! Proud to see that.

    No one wants to see all ISOs. Denver never ran all ISOs. They ran a lot of them, but they were a very diverse half-court offense, utilizing a lot of different concepts (like dribble hand off plays with Billups and Kenyon Martin,among many other things) especially when you consider that they lacked a guard who could consistently get in the lane in the half court.

    I want to see a lot of pnr. Amar’,Chandler, Lin,Fields and yes, Melo are just way too dynamic not to run a high percentage of them.

    It would be insane not to. Atlanta’s situation during Iso Joe was markedly different (and let’s recal that team was third in offensive efficiencywith IsoJe,despite the guy isolating being anaverage efficiency scorer– he was still enoughof a threat to get that tilt. ) than the one the Knicksare in– the Knicks have much more talent,and far superior versatility.

    All indications are that happy medium is going to be reached. They aren’t scraping MDA’s offense, but they are integrating much more variety–capitalizing on the team’s collective talents–something a good coach tries, something a genius offensive coach masters.

  171. Jake S.

    From Howard Beck today:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/07/health/07brody.html

    They realize that Lin’s basically a rookie, and that there’s no reason to think he won’t improve, right? RIGHT? It’s just a little too easy for me to imagine Dolan letting Lin walk as his newest “fuck you” to the New York fan base.

    On a separate note, I think tomorrow night’s going to be a disaster. The fear and loathing has returned. Where’s Ralph Steadman when you need him?

  172. Owen

    going to the game tomorrow, going to be interesting…

    Ruruland – Harden scored 18 points on 11.88 shots tonight. Still has a fractional edge on Melo in the TS% race…..

    If you could have Harden or Melo, on the same contract, for the next three years, who do you take?

  173. Doug

    Owen: It’s moronic to write this, but my friend’s buddy lives in the same building as SAS. Apparently SAS told him in the elevator two days ago that D’Antoni was going to be fired and Jackson is going to be the coach next year.

    What a coincidence! I was just watching this video that analyzes how inept Mark Jackson’s offensive playcalling is.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtU8bxH-bHQ

  174. Doug

    Owen: If you could have Harden or Melo, on the same contract, for the next three years, who do you take?

    The contract being Harden’s or Melo’s? :P

  175. jon abbey

    Z: I am dismayed that OccupyMSG only has 40 likes. Come people! This is our Fort Sumpter! The South (of 42nd St.) Shall Rise Again!!!

    very disappointing, there is a Twitter account now too:

    https://twitter.com/FreeTheKnicks

    you’re either part of the solution or you’re happy to let the Dolan era last for generations.

  176. er

    We don’t know how harden would play as the “man” but I love his game and he is very talented and young so it’s a tough one, but I think melo at his best would be better than harden at his best

    Owen:
    going to the game tomorrow, going to be interesting…

    Ruruland – Harden scored 18 points on 11.88 shots tonight. Still has a fractional edge on Melo in the TS% race…..

    If you could have Harden or Melo, on the same contract, for the next three years, who do you take?

  177. 2FOR18

    er: They aren’t that good in the half court…so If you can slow the heat down I think it makes them very human…..if you watch their games the half court offense is basically wade and lebron chucking up shots, some difficult fadeaways and sprinkling in some bosh, they also rely on Anthony and haslem to get offensive boards

    I agree.

  178. 2FOR18

    jon abbey: very disappointing, there is a Twitter account now too:https://twitter.com/FreeTheKnicksyou’re either part of the solution or you’re happy to let the Dolan era last for generations.

    I would sign up, but I’m not a member of any of the social media sites. I just don’t get the appeal. But if there is ever some kind of physical meeting/protest I will definitely participate. Maybe a bunch of people can get together to boo JD and The Straight Shot during their next show? Gotta be cheaper than an MSG ticket.

  179. Ben R

    Owen:
    going to the game tomorrow, going to be interesting…

    Ruruland – Harden scored 18 points on 11.88 shots tonight. Still has a fractional edge on Melo in the TS% race…..

    If you could have Harden or Melo, on the same contract, for the next three years, who do you take?

    I would take Harden on Melo’s contract before I took Melo on Harden’s contract, assuming I wasn’t looking to trade them.

  180. ruruland

    Owen:
    going to the game tomorrow, going to be interesting…

    Ruruland – Harden scored 18 points on 11.88 shots tonight. Still has a fractional edge on Melo in the TS% race…..

    If you could have Harden or Melo, on the same contract, for the next three years, who do you take?

    It’s impossible for me to make a statistical argument at this point in time. Harden is playing far too well, Melo having the worst year of his professional career.

    So, I’m not going to fall into that trap. Melo is going to play a lot better the rest of the year, I know that, and there’s a chance he goes into monster mode at any point. Could be tomorrow.

    As someone who actually covered Harden and at ASU, it’s really surprising to me how good of a shooter he’s become.

    His slash game was always there. Not an overwhelming athlete, but explosive in every athletic attribute– great first step, power in long strides, good elevation, quick leaper off of one or two feet.
    He’s also, play per play, the Thunder’s most consistent, steady and reliable playmaker. Always makes the sound decision.

    Now, if he was getting the opponents best wing defender as opposed to the third best, if he was playing less against benches, would that change, likely dramatically?

    Hard for me to say it wouldn’t.

    His game complements Westbrook and Durants — he’s an excellent runner. They’re a great running team. And both Durant and Harden can be lead guy on the break or the trailer — they create so much for each other in transition and semi-transition — mostly by presence.

    I’m still not a believer in OKC for 4 reasons 1)They rely too much on out-athleting teams. Here’s what I mean. Those core players simply don’t get dead legs. They are very athletic, but they never lose their spring or explosion. To me, they have an advantage over every other team in the NBA in this regard…

  181. ruruland

    2)They have no semblance of a coherent half-court offense. They have 3 brilliant players, but they are a semi-transition team for the most part. Their half court offense is ugly. There’s nothing that comes from inside-out play. Their primary ball-handlers, Durant and Westbrook, are way too turnover prone and not consistent enough passers– either in their decision-making or their accuracy. There’s very little shared timing when I watch them play.

    3) In the half court they take an extremely high percentage of jump shots. They’re a really good shooting team, but they create so much of their shooting rhythm, at least from my perspective, from their speed game.

    Against older teams, rested and able to bring their game up another gear in the playoffs, they don’t have a speed advantage. When you can’t play pick and roll, can’t play inside out and you have 3 shot oriented perimeter scorers generating 90 percent of your offense — there’s too much redundancy and pressure to score in a certain way. It’s also easier to defend.

    4) They’re also too foul-oriented from the drive. They’re a great contact-showing team. In fact, KD RW JH all play to contact. I think that compounds their wildness because the ratio of those calls in playoff games goes down. The bar for contact goes up, and they won’t get such disproportionate foul numbers in their favor (all of these things came true last year).

    I think they lose to LA if they get matched up. And for this notion that they’re this great defense team. The Knicks have a better defensive rating with comparable defensive centers and comparable defensive back-up 4s (and the Thunder has a better rebounding and defending 4/5 in Perkins over Amar’e)

    How do you explain that? Harden, Westbrook and Durant are all extremely overrated defenders.

  182. The Infamous Cdiggy

    KnicksFanInVA:
    Oden waived by Portland. What a couple of days for the Blazers. 42 point loss, fired their coach, clear the roster, waive the #1 overall pick. Damn.

    I hate to say this, but I think it’s a wrap for Oden and his career. Really a shame.

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