The Honorable Cock Jowles: Right. Net possessions don’t mean a thing.

If steals were the most important aspect of defense you would see a lot more of them. There have been a lot of great thieves who were poor defenders. One of them is mentioned in this thread.

To say steals = net possessions on defense … no words for how ridiculous that is.

l
johnlocke:
Now you’re putting words in my mouth. I never said team success can be attributed to a single player. I also never said it’s the single attribute that defines who’s elite and who’s not. What I said was I think it’s not “dumb” or “unimportant” or “useless” to look at team results as a part of player evaluation for so-called super star players. Just like if you look only at FG% it won’t tell you the whole story, the same is true of team success — it’s an indicator not an absolute rule. Let’s see how the Magic and Bulls do next year. The reason Chris Paul and Melo aren’t in the same conversation is because Chris Paul’s individual statistics (esp. advanced statistics) are vastly superior to Carmelo’s… as is Garnett. Also Melo’s individual playoff performances have been subpar, so that’s why he gets blame for his team’s lack of success.As for Chris Paul, he played with Blake Griffin and took a non-playoff team to the 2nd round where they lost to the team with the best record in the NBA. In NO he played with Tyson Chandler before he was the Chandler we know. David West? Come on now.
Again, part of the reason Melo gets knocked for team performance (esp. in the playoffs) has been his lack of production in the playoffs relative to other ‘stars/elite players’ including Deron Williams, who he’s closest to on the list below.

Melo…season .124, playoffs .104 (3 negative years)
Paul…season.238, playoffs .174 (1 negative year)
Wade…season .196, playoffs .182
DWill….season .136, playoffs .147
Lebron….season .233, playoffs .234

ruruland:
lmao @ stl/to

Right. Net possessions don’t mean a thing.

Juany8:
Well John I guess my question is what the cutoff is? I don’t mean to go all THCJ on you, but it seems that you subjectively use team success to downplay Melo’s value while ignoring it when discussing other players. I’m pretty sure if Melo had played with Shaq his whole career, his playoff record would be monstrously better.

JC Knickfan:

Pau Gasol – you actually think he great player? We talking player (Melo) who average 25 ppg in regular season, but has not carried his team to more playoff success.

Chris Paul –If he retired today you consider him one the greats?Honestly, I would put him same boat Melo if they ended their career today.

Yes. Pau Gasol is an elite player. Last season he was not so good, but before that?

WP48

.265
.265
.234
.244

As a Laker. Check his WS48 stats. Check any of his stats. He’s awesome.

And Chris Paul? His WP48 average — over his whole career — is .302. According to that metric, he is three times as valuable as the average PG. Why? He’s above average to amazing in EVERYTHING.

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/211-chris-paul

He is an absurdly good player. I posted his STL/TO numbers awhile back. Steve Nash’s STL/TO ratio is something like 0.25 for his career. Chris Paul? 0.95. Even Rondo, who’s a great defender, puts up a 0.72 for his career. No one’s even close to Paul in overall efficiency.

Juany8: Jesus I literally said Melo was not close to KG as a player. I know KG is a first ball hall of famer, and I would easily trade both Melo and Amar’re for him in his prime, even for the combined price of both lol. My point was actually what you said, that comparing players by team success is dumb to a certain point, especially if you’re not comparing championships.

I know.

JC Knickfan: Top players are rated by team success. Take Garnet MVP year Minnesota happen have best record in western conference. Was actually his best year statistically?No, but award consistently given to player on top teams.

Let me ask question – if Melo won championship (actually lost conf final 4-2) in 2008–09 w/ Nuggets, would you think he better then average player? Rest of his career stay the same except for season.

I don’t care about the MVP award. Derrick Rose won it over LeBron James. Why even mention it?

Melo didn’t win the title that year, so your hypothetical scenario is meaningless. You’re essentially asking me “If Carmelo were much better that year (and he had a good playoff run, at least) and they won, would I call him a better player?” Yes, yes I would. If he played better I would have called him a better player.

Melo…season .124, playoffs .104 (3 negative years)
Paul…season .238, playoffs .174 (1 negative year)
Wade…season .196, playoffs .182
DWill….season .136, playoffs .147
Lebron….season .233, playoffs .234

Juany8: Team success cannot be attributed to a single player unless you’re talking about someone totally dominant, which might only be Howard and Lebron at this point

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