Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, April 23, 2014

394 comments on “2012 Game Thread: Sixers at Knicks

  1. The Infamous Cdiggy

    Melo aggressive and with the touch early on, against Iggy no less…

    Clyde mentioned that if Melo keeps at it, they’ll have to double him, which can open up shots for others. That can work…

  2. cgreene

    Definitely don’t run anything for Melo after his shitty first quarter. Keep running pick and roll and having the ball in Fields’ hands. That makes sense.

  3. BigBlueAL

    Gotta give D’Antoni credit, the Sixers couldnt stop Melo early but he found a way to ice the shit out of Melo by sitting him for nearly 7 minutes of game time. Brilliant.

  4. dogrufus

    Well, here comes the usual 7 “turnovers in a row into big deficit into near-comeback win into loss” sequence.

    If we lose this game I might start hoping for us to miss the playoffs, because I’d rather not watch us get swept by Miami.

  5. formido

    Second game in a row, Lin and Melo in good rhythm, building a lead, and then they’re taken out and it’s immediately gone.

  6. TheXman

    dogrufus:
    Well, here comes the usual 7 “turnovers in a row into big deficit into near-comeback win into loss” sequence.

    If we lose this game I might start hoping for us to miss the playoffs, because I’d rather not watch us get swept by Miami.

    Oddly enough I’m also numb and just hope they lose every game for the rest of the season. It would be fitting after that magical 8 game winning streak all for naught.

  7. ruruland

    How many prayers are going to go in for Knicks opponents at MSG?

    It’s pretty uncanny.

    Take away the turnovers and transition points, defense has been very solid.

  8. TheXman

    We’re really only in this game because of Chandler, guy has been solid on the rotations and rebounds.

  9. cgreene

    BigBlueAL:
    Gotta give D’Antoni credit, the Sixers couldnt stop Melo early but he found a way to ice the shit out of Melo by sitting him for nearly 7 minutes of game time.Brilliant.

    it’s really unreal. Clyde talking about it on air. Also criticizing MDA for not have team motivated. But the pre planned rotation is the perfect example of MDA’s dogmatic approach, his inability to handle the depth and his inability to adjust his thinking on the fly in game. Melo is 26. Dude can play 40 minutes if he’s hot.

  10. Bruno Almeida

    defense has really been good, and shooting also, but what a terrible display of taking care of the ball…

    turnovers are kinda overrated, but not when you repeatedly give away the ball on the 3pt line on simple passes, this is stupid.

  11. jon abbey

    that was an amazing shot by Williams.

    and holy shit, Amare is bad, absolutely no lift today. even his dunk, he double-clutched a bit, expecting someone to block him.

  12. dogrufus

    TheXman:
    We’re really only in this game because of Chandler, guy has been solid on the rotations and rebounds.

    You could pretty much just copy-paste this for every game he’s played in for us.

  13. ruruland

    Bruno Almeida: defense has really been good, and shooting also, but what a terrible display of taking care of the ball…turnovers are kinda overrated, but not when you repeatedly give away the ball on the 3pt line on simple passes, this is stupid.

    I don’t understand how turnovers are overrated. They’re a lot worse than missed shots.

  14. ruruland

    jon abbey: that was an amazing shot by Williams.and holy shit, Amare is bad, absolutely no lift today. even his dunk, he double-clutched a bit, expecting someone to block him.

    And he missed a dunk on the alley-oop. it makes no sense at all given what we saw a couple of days ago. Chandler comes back and he can’t jump again?

  15. Robert Silverman Post author

    cgreene: it’s really unreal.Clyde talking about it on air.Also criticizing MDA for not have team motivated.But the pre planned rotation is the perfect example of MDA’s dogmatic approach, his inability to handle the depth and his inability to adjust his thinking on the fly in game.Melo is 26.Dude can play 40 minutes if he’s hot.

    Riley/Van Gundy did that too and it drove me nuts.

  16. dogrufus

    jon abbey:
    that was an amazing shot by Williams.

    Ever get the feeling that Louis Williams is basically the guard version of what Melo would be if he didn’t have the pedigree and the “superstar” label, and didnt get handed 38 mpg and all the shots he could take on day 1?

    Also I was just gonna remark that Amare looks less terrible than usual around the basket today…

  17. jon abbey

    cgreene: it’s really unreal.Clyde talking about it on air.Also criticizing MDA for not have team motivated.But the pre planned rotation is the perfect example of MDA’s dogmatic approach, his inability to handle the depth and his inability to adjust his thinking on the fly in game.Melo is 26.Dude can play 40 minutes if he’s hot.

    he’s a few months short of 28, but he definitely shouldn’t have sat that long.

    today Jorts is back to being buried.

  18. ruruland

    jon abbey: he’s a few months short of 28, but he definitely shouldn’t have sat that long. today Jorts is back to being buried.

    Yeah, very tough to play 10 guys. If Jorts could make open shots I might agree.

  19. dogrufus

    ruruland: I don’t understand how turnovers are overrated. They’re a lot worse than missed shots.

    Not always. An out of bounds turnover, for example, hurts you a lot less than a missed jumper with a long rebound leading to transition.

  20. ruruland

    TheXman: at least Lin not getting torched, so he’s back to being a good defender right?!

    Back to being a good defender?

    Sarcasm.
    When did anyone say that? We’re looking at about a ten game stretch where almost every point guard has gone off, much of that, not all of course, but much of it Lin’s fault.

    I’ve seen improvements the last couple of games though .

  21. ruruland

    dogrufus: Not always. An out of bounds turnover, for example, hurts you a lot less than a missed jumper with a long rebound leading to transition.

    Right not always. Knicks don’t make a lot of out of bounds turnovers, though.

    They all seem to lead to transition opportunities.

  22. d-mar

    jon abbey:
    that was an amazing shot by Williams.

    and holy shit, Amare is bad, absolutely no lift today. even his dunk, he double-clutched a bit, expecting someone to block him.

    Amare has 4 pts. on 4 shots, 4 reb, a block and a steal and his defense hasn’t been all that bad. Not fair to be on his case today (so far)

  23. art vandelay

    Amare has taken 4 shots all game….I don’t know how we can accurately depict him as terrible and without lift…he didn’t slam home that alley oop, but I actually thought he looked spry and with good lift on the one play he took the ball hard to the basket, whizzed by Brand in traffic and dunked.

  24. ruruland

    Some of the improvements with point guard defense the last couple of games stem from the pick and roll defense, which has ultimately led to some easy looks by other guys.

  25. TheXman

    ruruland: expecting someone to block him.

    Amare has 4 pts. on 4 shots, 4 reb, a

    Just saying you guys here basically interchange correlations with causations too easily

  26. llcoolbp

    just joining in. missed the first half. On’y down by 2. I’m cautiously optimistic. As long as we don’t have our usual 3rd quarter meltdown.

  27. art vandelay

    Yes, the key is to look at Points OFF of TO’s….our turnovers committed by Lin/Davis and also Fields when he turns to stone are almost automatic 2 points at the other end, especially against a super young, athletic fastbreaking team like Philly that likes to cause TO’s and get out in transition….moreso than other teams, our TO’s seem to be especially egregious…we commit hardly any deadball TO’s.

  28. ruruland

    d-mar: Amare has 4 pts. on 4 shots, 4 reb, a block and a steal and his defense hasn’t been all that bad. Not fair to be on his case today (so far)

    Yeah, but 2-4 when your looks are basically 4 shots right at the rim isn’t good, including a missed dunk. And the 4 rebounds don’t tell you about the two layups he allowed by not blocking out Brand.

  29. ruruland

    art vandelay: Yes, the key is to look at Points OFF of TO’s….our turnovers committed by Lin/Davis and also Fields when he turns to stone are almost automatic 2 points at the other end, especially against a super young, athletic fastbreaking team like Philly that likes to cause TO’s and get out in transition….moreso than other teams, our TO’s seem to be especially egregious…we commit hardly any deadball TO’s.

    Most of them seem to be extremely high-risk passes in traffic by Fields, Baron, or Lin, or Lin losing his dribble.

  30. TheXman

    Great job Amare, that’s exactly we can do afford to give away points. FUCK’S SAKE GOD YOU FUCKING IDIOT.

  31. kronicfatigue

    A turnover can be both over and under valued. Because they often lead to transition points the other way, they are usually “worse” than a missed shot. However, a turnover can also be the result of a high risk/reward play that happened to be “risk” result. Throwing an alley oop that leads to a easy dunk 70% of the time and a turnover 30% of the time is probably a smart play (without crunching the numbers b/c i don’t know how to). So when you get that 30% negative result you shrug your shoulders and realize that it’s not THAT bad.

  32. dogrufus

    TheXman:
    Great job Amare, that’s exactly we can do afford to give away points. FUCK’S SAKE GOD YOU FUCKING IDIOT.

    I wish he would restrict his giving away points to his terrible defense.

  33. TheXman

    Will likely be down by 14 by the 4th quarter. Then get the lead back down to 2 with 3 minutes left, then lose by 10.

  34. limpidgimp

    Tyson gets a new technical after a previous one was rescinded by the league. He’s not slowing down with the T’s.

  35. dogrufus

    ruruland:
    They all seem to lead to transition opportunities.

    Well of course the Knicks seem to do everything terrible, I just meant turnovers generally.

  36. d-mar

    If Amare had let Brand blow by him like Chandler just did, this board would have been calling for his execution

  37. TheXman

    Another non-existent Melo quarter. Lin needs to make some fucking shots, he just looks totally different out there from before. I guess defenses have him figured out, oh well. We don’t have a choice, BDIDDY?

  38. KJG

    This game has been an absolute bore. Knicks look a little more bored than the sixers… Too many guys just fail to get involved for stretches.

  39. TheXman

    Lol IGGY is now a better shooter than Melo. Awesome, 4 point play!!!! AHAHAHAH FUCKING WOW

  40. BigBlueAL

    I officially hate this team more than any of Isiah’s teams or even Larry Brown’s team.

  41. The Infamous Cdiggy

    BigBlueAL:
    I officially hate this team more than any of Isiah’s teams or even Larry Brown’s team.

    I know you upset, but c’mon. (lol kinda)

  42. dogrufus

    We have to lead the league by far in 4 point plays allowed.

    Seems like when we foul on a 3 it somehow increases the chance of it going in.

    Fuck this team. It’s one thing to suck, another to suck so predictably.

  43. kronicfatigue

    When Lin draws contact, it’s often after he’s recklessly put his head down, and kept the ball down by his waist. After the contact, he just throws the ball up from that low position. The reason that he doesn’t get the call, IMO, is that he looks like he’s going in there ONLY to draw the contact. He doesn’t look like a player legitimately attempting a shot.

    He’s looking for a bailout and he doesn’t deserve it.

  44. dogrufus

    TheXman:
    Lin never gets calls, Evan Turner doing what we need Melo to do.

    Notice how every game someone on the other team who isn’t a “superstar” seem to do what both Amar’e and Melo are supposed to do, far better than Amar’e and Melo actually do it? Like say, Dunleavy and Ilyasova?

  45. dogrufus

    kronicfatigue:
    When Lin draws contact, it’s often after he’s recklessly put his head down, and kept the ball down by his waist.After the contact, he just throws the ball up from that low position. The reason that he doesn’t get the call, IMO, is that he looks like he’s going in there ONLY to draw the contact. He doesn’t look like a player legitimately attempting a shot.

    He’s looking for a bailout and he doesn’t deserve it.

    And yet, such bailouts are routinely granted to plenty of players in the league on the basis of popularity and reputation.

  46. Frank O.

    Dear Knicks defense:
    Turner is kind if killing u. You might actually want to get within 3 ft of him when he shoots.
    D’Antoni needs to make some decisions about his rotation. Should be chandler, Amare, Melo, Lin and Baron. Then Jeffries, Smith, and Fields and Shumpert.

  47. dogrufus

    The Infamous Cdiggy: I know you upset, but c’mon. (lol kinda)

    He has a point. We at least knew those teams were garbage. This team has talent and teases us with potential only to suck more and more, reaching ever more shameful lows.

  48. art vandelay

    JR Smith, while he plays generally pretty good man-to-man defense, is absolutely incapable of avoiding committing the foul 9 times out of 10.

  49. Frank O.

    Possibly Jeffries will share day to day with Novak depending on what the team needs that night

  50. TheXman

    kronicfatigue:

    We really do need some hero to re-energize this team and steal this win because this is going to end badly. Then we will definitely lose against the Bulls on the road by then we will be tied or out of the playoffs.

    Turner, Dunleavy, Ilysova seem to play within the offense. No forcing and hero-balling. Just making the right decisions, they can go for 20 plus or not. Melo has the mindset he has to go for 20 plus everygame, I mean it’s not his fault the media will get on his case for averaging 18 a game or something. Turner, Dunleavy etc are not expected to be 20 plus scorers.

  51. knew_york_knicks

    Frank O.:
    Dear Knicks defense:
    Turner is kind if killing u. You might actually want to get within 3 ft of him when he shoots.
    D’Antoni needs to make some decisions about his rotation.Should be chandler, Amare, Melo, Lin and Baron. Then Jeffries, Smith, and Fields and Shumpert.

    agreed. by trying to make everyone happy by giving them minutes, he ultimately kills the flow of the team. someone said earlier, why take melo and lin out when they were doing well together earlier. smh

  52. TheXman

    JR Smith just keep on shooting jump shots every single time, u fucking idiot. Put in Landry, at least he’s trying.

  53. llcoolbp

    like earlier in the year before the lin phenomenon, i am now again rooting for this team to lose and lose badly. That way we can speed up dantoni’s departure.

  54. TheXman

    Is there another Lin 2.0 we can summon from the bench who sleeps on the couch to save us again? Bibby? BIBSANITY!

  55. dogrufus

    Louis Williams with 24 points on 80% TS% in 17 minutes.

    Man, if only we had a player capable of scoring like that.

    I might even pay 20 million for him

  56. Kikuchiyo

    TheXman: Is there another Lin 2.0 we can summon from the bench who sleeps on the couch to save us again? Bibby? BIBSANITY!

    As I like to put it, Mike Bibby’s mom likes the way this game is going.

  57. dogrufus

    dogrufus:
    Louis Williams with 24 points on 80% TS% in 17 minutes.

    Man, if only we had a player capable of scoring like that.

    I might even pay 20 million for him

    Check that, 27 on 85% TS in 17 minutes.

  58. TheXman

    BigBlueAL:
    This team is going to be 18-24 by the end of tomorrow night.Fucking hilarious.

    Hey we’re better than .500 when we were 8-15 pre-Linsanity. YESSS!!!!! D’Antoni looks like he wants to get fired, he can’t even take this himself. We won’t come back too like before, we’ll lose by 20 plus I’m sure of it.

  59. dogrufus

    BigBlueAL:
    This team is going to be 18-24 by the end of tomorrow night.Fucking hilarious.

    Look on the bright side, the record with our two superstars paying is something like 12-24

  60. Will the Thrill

    At the rate this is going, you might as well chalk it up as 18-27 by next week.

    BigBlueAL:
    This team is going to be 18-24 by the end of tomorrow night.Fucking hilarious.

  61. dogrufus

    Will the Thrill:
    A trade is looming, a trade is looming (hopefully a big one)

    If Melo and Chandler for Dwight is a possibility there’s really no excuse for passing

  62. Richmond County

    What is with this team and the 3rd quarter? It’s like D’antoni calls everyone in at halftime and forces them to listen to Enya.

  63. Kikuchiyo

    So which is it:

    A.) Improbable comeback that falls short in the last minute.

    B.) Complete surrender and loss by 25.

  64. Jake S.

    Not in favor of firing coaches mid-season, but I’m not sure how D’Antoni keeps this team from sinking into the abyss.

  65. dogrufus

    Kikuchiyo:
    So which is it:

    A.) Improbable comeback that falls short in the last minute.

    B.) Complete surrender and loss by 25.

    I’m rooting for option c, Sixers win by 40, Lou Williams with 50 points on under 20 shots

  66. TheXman

    Hilarious to look at the boxscore, each sixer is extremely efficient outside Holiday…wish I had a team like that.

  67. Will the Thrill

    Well that one is obvious, I’m talking trades that will rid us of bad contracts, and will improve our defense.

    dogrufus: If Melo and Chandler for Dwight is a possibility there’s really no excuse for passing

  68. formido

    Whenever Davis comes in, the game gets out of hand. People focus on individual plays. Watch the +/- flow over time. People talking about Lin looking like a D-leaguer. Who had the highest +/- last game again? Lin had +13 and Knicks lost to Milwaukee. The source of the Knick’s problems is too much Baron Davis but people keep nitpicking Lin’s game.

    Lin back in and already made several good plays, and got a couple bad breaks. But something structured and positive is happening.

  69. hoolahoop

    The knicks are sending us a message. It’s a gorgeous day. Why are you inside watching us multi-millionaires collect our checks. Get a life. Get outside. Or, stay home complaining how we suck laughing all the way to the bank. Fans, if we cared about you don’t you think we’d play harder.

  70. Gamecockerbocker

    Just turned the game on… Probably shouldn’t have. I assume since Melo isn’t in the game he’s 2-20 for 13 points?

  71. dogrufus

    Will the Thrill:
    Well that one is obvious, I’m talking trades that will rid us of bad contracts, and will improve our defense.

    Yeah, I’d like to trade Amar’e too. I’d also like to find $10 million in unmarked bills in a suitcase. Both scenarios are about as likely.

  72. Richmond County

    I hate living on the west coast. At least if the game started at noon for me, the Knicks would have only ruined half my day.

  73. Bruno Almeida

    yeah, let’s start Shumpert and J.R Smith and send Fields away, that’s totally going to make us a better team!

    pathetic loss, to say the least.

  74. dogrufus

    You know what? Fuck it, I went to Penn. Plenty of ties to Philly. This Sixers team looks like a well-coached group that cares and would be fun to root for.

    Lou Williams now with 28 on 88% TS in 20 minutes!

    When the playoffs start I’m rooting for Philly. At this rate I won’t even have to worry about any sort of conflict of interest since these losers will be on vacation by then.

  75. Gamecockerbocker

    wow just saw that huge bruise on Lin’s arm. I’m assuming he didn’t the foul call when that happened?

  76. hoolahoop

    Be prepared for the dagger. The knicks catch a little fire and Dantoni gets a four year extension.

  77. dogrufus

    massive:
    I don’t think this team cares that they’re being destroyed by a division rival.

    They didn’t care in Boston until too late for it to make a difference. I’d expect the same today.

  78. Will the Thrill

    Trade Melo. We at least will be able to get something for him.

    dogrufus:
    Will the Thrill:
    Well that one is obvious, I’m talking trades that will rid us of bad contracts, and will improve our defense.

    Yeah, I’d like to trade Amar’e too.I’d also like to find $10 million in unmarked bills in a suitcase.Both scenarios are about as likely.

  79. joengai

    shameless self-plug, classy.

    dogrufus:
    You know what?Fuck it, I went to Penn.Plenty of ties to Philly.This Sixers team looks like a well-coached group that cares and would be fun to root for.

    Lou Williams now with 28 on 88% TS in 20 minutes!

    When the playoffs start I’m rooting for Philly.At this rate I won’t even have to worry about any sort of conflict of interest since these losers will be on vacation by then.

  80. Bruno Almeida

    even Novak is less terrible than Amare on defense.

    by the way, what a joke of a performance by our so-called ultra deep backcourt.

  81. hoolahoop

    In case any of you guys think you’re wasting time watching this game, I lost my connection and have been following the second half through you guys. Tell me, I’m pathetic.
    Going out to play some ball. Have fun, my knicks brothers.

  82. dogrufus

    If only Amare and Melo’s playing time was dependent on their production instead of their salary, this team would be pretty good.

    One of them needs to go to the bench- we literally can’t afford having them both on the floor at once.

  83. The Infamous Cdiggy

    fyi: subtract Jrue Holiday’s 1-12 and the Sixers are 35-56 from the field… yikes.

  84. Bruno Almeida

    why the hell is Chandler still in the fucking game? so he can reaggravate his injury, that’s the idea?

    take him out for fuck’s sake

  85. kronicfatigue

    Could this team sustain a full court press for a large chunk of the game? Good depth, Shump and Chandler seem like they could handle it at the ends of the court. Might at least tire out the other team a bit.

    The reason we fail in the 3rd quarter is b/c other teams adjust at halftime and MDA can’t.

  86. dogrufus

    joengai:
    shameless self-plug, classy.

    For that to be a plug you’d have to consider it something worth bragging about; I do not

  87. Will the Thrill

    You know it’s sad when the fans get so excited when we ALMOST get the lead down to 10 with 3 minutes left

  88. massive

    I hope that D’Antoni keeps Melo and Amar’e off the court. Hopefully the New York media will roast them for not playing defense.

  89. Doug

    dogrufus:
    You know what?Fuck it, I went to Penn.Plenty of ties to Philly.This Sixers team looks like a well-coached group that cares and would be fun to root for.

    Lou Williams now with 28 on 88% TS in 20 minutes!

    When the playoffs start I’m rooting for Philly.At this rate I won’t even have to worry about any sort of conflict of interest since these losers will be on vacation by then.

    LOLOLOL GOOD RIDDANCE

  90. Bruno Almeida

    I can’t believe nobody traded for Iguodala back when the Sixers were actively shopping him, most NBA GMs truly are stupid

  91. Gamecockerbocker

    Bruno Almeida:
    why the hell is Chandler still in the fucking game? so he can reaggravate his injury, that’s the idea?

    take him out for fuck’s sake

    Isn’t there another 7 footer on the end of our bench? I believe his name is Jerome … uh Jordan? Why risk Chandler when we could just throw Jordan out there.

  92. dogrufus

    Doug: LOLOLOL GOOD RIDDANCE

    Oh don’t worry, I’ll still bitch about the Knicks until we’re definitely out of the playoffs

    Looking at the schedule that shouldn’t be too long

  93. ess-dog

    D’Antoni’s done. We keep getting creamed in the 3rd quarter. That’s on the coach. Philly has made adjustments to our guys but we haven’t done the same. We also just come out of halftime flat. Sure our guys are mediocre, but the lack of fire and preparedness… that’s all on Mike.

    What good coaches are out there besides Jax of course? Who’s taking over this mess? I wish we could’ve gotten Adelman…

  94. Will the Thrill

    Lin making some reallllly stupid passes, I think when we are down he is desperate for the perfect pass to get us easy baskets, but they are not working.

  95. dogrufus

    __________ _________ steals the ball from Jeremy Lin.

    __________ _________ steals the ball from Jeremy Lin.

    __________ _________ steals the ball from Jeremy Lin.

    __________ _________ steals the ball from Jeremy Lin.

    When I watch the box scores online I feel like I’m just reading that over and over.

  96. Gamecockerbocker

    Fuck it. Start this lineup (Jeffries for Novak when he gets healthy) against Chicago. Make Melo and STAT earn their playing time. Also what were the fans chanting while Smith was on the line? Something about twitter?

  97. jon abbey

    hoolahoop:
    boycott MSG

    at least Dolan raised prices again for next season, I would take 100 losses in a row if it meant he would sell the team.

    jesus, JR Smith is just terrible. jesus.

  98. Bruno Almeida

    if Turner ever becomes a consistent player, he’s going to be a superstar and Philly might just be a top 3 team in the east and a pretty serious contender.

  99. 2010

    Ok-I’ve seen enough of this combo of D’Antoni, Melo, Stat, and the rest. They suck. The team can’t defend, can’t run the offense and they look unmotivated at home even in an important game. No one else is coming in to save the team. They need to make changes and trades.

  100. themark

    They look uninspired. and why is it that we get destroyed in the 3rd quarter? i feel like this happens a bit too often for it to be a coincidence..

  101. jon abbey

    second straight game that Melo has started off red-hot and done very little the last three quarters. that combined with how many layups he has been unable to finish makes me wonder if he actually is out of shape as some people have guessed previously.

    almost no bright spots today, when Landry Fields is your best player, you’re not going to win many games. pitiful and embarrassing, D’Antoni must go.

  102. Bruno Almeida

    Jake S.:
    Has this team had a players only meeting? Anything? Any signs of life?

    why should they? Carmelo is probably laughing and making jokes right now like he did after the other games…

    there’s nothing wrong with this team, it’s only a matter of playing together and it will all be ok………………….

  103. er

    Excuse me it was the guard combo of Williams and turner who killed the knicks not forwards

    massive:
    I hope that D’Antoni keeps Melo and Amar’e off the court. Hopefully the New York media will roast them for not playing defense.

  104. TheXman

    Evan Turner is a like a suped up Landry Fields. Can we trade Amare for Elton Brand/Turner. Or Melo for Iggy/Turner? Hah that’d be a hilarious coup. Can we just trade everyone, Dolan, D’Antoni and keep Clyde.

  105. dogrufus

    jon abbey: at least Dolan raised prices again for next season, I would take 100 losses in a row if it meant he would sell the team.

    jesus, JR Smith is just terrible. jesus.

    I would probably accept Jeremy Lin being traded to the Lakers for Metta World Peace and then going on to lead them to 9 consecutive championships and going down as the greatest athlete in all history if it meant Dolan selling the team.

    That’s the cancer, guys.

  106. formido

    Lin second on team on +/- at -2 (Landry -4). Davis -13. But, yeah, Lin’s the one who looks like a d-leaguer. Last game Knicks lose to Milwaukee despite Lin’s +13. But, yeah, Lin has fallen off. Rolls-eyes.

    Also, it’s funny how much easier it is to defend the opposing PG when there’s a shot blocker behind you. But, yeah, basketball isn’t about team defense. It’s all about on the ball defense.

  107. Jake S.

    jon abbey:
    second straight game that Melo has started off red-hot and done very little the last three quarters. that combined with how many layups he has been unable to finish makes me wonder if he actually is out of shape as some people have guessed previously.

    almost no bright spots today, when Landry Fields is your best player, you’re not going to win many games. pitiful and embarrassing, D’Antoni must go.

    Interesting thought. He looks like he’s sucking wind a little, but maybe I’ve convinced myself that’s what I’m seeing.

  108. Will the Thrill

    Yeah, how can anyone defend them and/or be against making a major change? Can we possibly get worse? If we traded Melo/Amare for freaking Nate Robinson and Al Harrington we would get the same results, losses. I hate the way Amare has played, and I’m guessing other GMs have too, so I am hoping on the firing of D’antoni, and the trading of Melo of some decent young players and maybe draft picks.

    2010:
    Ok-I’ve seen enough of this combo of D’Antoni, Melo, Stat, and the rest. They suck. The team can’t defend, can’t run the offense and they look unmotivated at home even in an important game. No one else is coming in to save the team. They need to make changes and trades.

  109. Bruno Almeida

    jon abbey:
    second straight game that Melo has started off red-hot and done very little the last three quarters. that combined with how many layups he has been unable to finish makes me wonder if he actually is out of shape as some people have guessed previously.

    almost no bright spots today, when Landry Fields is your best player, you’re not going to win many games. pitiful and embarrassing, D’Antoni must go.

    if he is out of shape 41 games into the season then he needs to get traded asap for cap relief, this is a joke.

    dude gets paid 20 million and his only motherf**** job is to be in shape and play basketball, and he’s out of shape after 41 games in the season?

    Chandler must want to kill himself right now.

  110. dogrufus

    Bruno Almeida:
    if Turner ever becomes a consistent player, he’s going to be a superstar and Philly might just be a top 3 team in the east and a pretty serious contender.

    Too bad we never draft in the top 3 even after being the laughingstock of the league for three years..

  111. TheXman

    I like the team without Amare and Melo, they had nothing to lose and played unselfish basketball. We are officially stuck with both of them, we also can’t even get any draft picks. We’re cursed.

  112. The Infamous Cdiggy

    Here’s another Just For The Hell of It Trade (stupid ESPN Trade Machine won’t calculate my trade results):

    Three-team trade btwn Indy, Orlando and NYK

    NYK gets:
    D12, Danny Granger, Hedo Turkoglu and Dantae Jones

    Indy gets:
    Amar’e, Glen Davis and JJ Redick (maybe throw-in Fields)

    Orlando gets:
    Melo, Chandler, and David West

    how crazy and impossible is that?

  113. jon abbey

    formido:
    Lin second on team on +/- at -2 (Landry -4). Davis -13. But, yeah, Lin’s the one who looks like a d-leaguer. Last game Knicks lose to Milwaukee despite Lin’s +13. But, yeah, Lin has fallen off. Rolls-eyes.

    seriously? how much of that was another garbage time run? 5-18 with 6 turnovers is spectacular, well argued.

  114. Will the Thrill

    Davis is definitely worse than Lin, but that doesn’t mean Lin plays well every game!!! Today he didn’t, and that’s okay. He’s young.

    formido:
    Lin second on team on +/- at -2 (Landry -4). Davis -13. But, yeah, Lin’s the one who looks like a d-leaguer. Last game Knicks lose to Milwaukee despite Lin’s +13. But, yeah, Lin has fallen off. Rolls-eyes.

    Also, it’s funny how much easier it is to defend the opposing PG when there’s a shot blocker behind you. But, yeah, basketball isn’t about team defense. It’s all about on the ball defense.

  115. er

    He made 10 freethrows jeez u guys on the guys meat so hard yea he missed 6 shots but he made TEN freakin freethrows and did not play in the forth goddamn

    Bruno Almeida: if he is out of shape 41 games into the season then he needs to get traded asap for cap relief, this is a joke.

    dude gets paid 20 million and his only motherf**** job is to be in shape and play basketball, and he’s out of shape after 41 games in the season?

    Chandler must want to kill himself right now.

  116. ess-dog

    Thank God I didn’t waste my afternoon watching that dreck. I think I need to shift my attention to March Madness.

  117. Richmond County

    The moral of the story is that the bench has the heart to keep us from getting blown out but our “superstars” don’t have the heart to win us games.

  118. Will the Thrill

    It’s awesome for the Knicks, good for Orlando, and absolutely awful for Indiana.

    The Infamous Cdiggy:
    Here’s another Just For The Hell of It Trade (stupid ESPN Trade Machine won’t calculate my trade results):

    Three-team trade btwn Indy, Orlando and NYK

    NYK gets:
    D12, Danny Granger, Hedo Turkoglu and Dantae Jones

    Indy gets:
    Amar’e, Glen Davis and JJ Redick (maybe throw-in Fields)

    Orlando gets:
    Melo, Chandler, and David West

    how crazy and impossible is that?

  119. formido

    People are focusing too much on other players. When Baron Davis runs the offense, the point differential just gets more and more negative over time. If there’s a lead, it evaporates. If they’re behind, the game gets out of hand, like in the third. This is as consistent as it gets, whether Baron is playing with first or second teamers.

  120. dogrufus

    formido:
    Lin second on team on +/- at -2 (Landry -4). Davis -13. But, yeah, Lin’s the one who looks like a d-leaguer. Last game Knicks lose to Milwaukee despite Lin’s +13. But, yeah, Lin has fallen off. Rolls-eyes.

    Also, it’s funny how much easier it is to defend the opposing PG when there’s a shot blocker behind you. But, yeah, basketball isn’t about team defense. It’s all about on the ball defense.

    Oh, I think Lin is just as good as he was during 7-0 Linsanity. If he was allowed to play with Novak/Jeffries/Tyson consistently and not have to labor with the millstones we call superstars, he’d probably look just as great as he looked during that stretch, and our team would have won some of these games.

    Amare and Melo are just terrible, below average players now. That is the new reality. Their reputations and contracts have gotten them more leeway than any other players would get and they just prove over and over that they aren’t even starter quality in this league, let alone stars.

    In the context of our team Novak is a better player than either of them.

  121. limpidgimp

    Gamecockerbocker:
    Why didn’t smith… you know… jump really high and dunk that?

    Not sure if you were being serious, but I was thinking the same thing hehe. He missed that layup. Sigh.

    I’d like to see him drive more instead of trying to find his shot from the perimeter, which hasn’t been happening for him.

  122. TheXman

    heh Iggy, with 19 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists playing like a max player, wish I knew how it feels to have a player liker that. Sixers are young have some solid talent with ThadYoung and Even Turner. They don’t even have Hawes yet. They have a decent young big in Vucecic. While we’re a so-called “win-now” team, LOOOOOL.

  123. jon abbey

    The Infamous Cdiggy:
    Here’s another Just For The Hell of It Trade (stupid ESPN Trade Machine won’t calculate my trade results):

    Three-team trade btwn Indy, Orlando and NYK

    NYK gets:
    D12, Danny Granger, Hedo Turkoglu and Dantae Jones

    Indy gets:
    Amar’e, Glen Davis and JJ Redick (maybe throw-in Fields)

    Orlando gets:
    Melo, Chandler, and David West

    how crazy and impossible is that?

    hahahahahahaha, I’m really not trying to be insulting but that is the most lopsided trade proposal I may have ever seen. Indiana gives away West and Granger and gets back that pu-pu platter of poo, thank you for the best laugh I’ve had today.

  124. dogrufus

    Richmond County:
    The moral of the story is that the bench has the heart to keep us from getting blown out but our “superstars” don’t have the heart to win us games.

    Unfortunately, heart being the issue might be wishful thinking. They don’t appear to even have the basketball skills, forget heart.

  125. Bruno Almeida

    The Infamous Cdiggy:
    Here’s another Just For The Hell of It Trade (stupid ESPN Trade Machine won’t calculate my trade results):

    Three-team trade btwn Indy, Orlando and NYK

    NYK gets:
    D12, Danny Granger, Hedo Turkoglu and Dantae Jones

    Indy gets:
    Amar’e, Glen Davis and JJ Redick (maybe throw-in Fields)

    Orlando gets:
    Melo, Chandler, and David West

    how crazy and impossible is that?

    Indy would never do it, even if they’re probably a little bit fed up with Granger… the way Amare is playing right now, West is not that far behind him.

    that would be a HUGE trade for the Knicks, but not likely.

    Philly was our perfect trade partner for a while, but now it’s gone… why the hell would they want to get rid of their assets to get our overpaid “stars”?

    Turner, Iguodala and Holiday all could be had with the right offer, teams were just stupid and never went for it.

  126. Will the Thrill

    The team with Amare and Melo can’t win. But the team without Melo and Amare can’t win either (against good teams). But this can be easily fixed, make some trades! Move some players!

    TheXman:
    I like the team without Amare and Melo, they had nothing to lose and played unselfish basketball.We are officially stuck with both of them, we also can’t even get any draft picks.We’re cursed.

  127. jon abbey

    formido:
    People are focusing too much on other players. When Baron Davis runs the offense, the point differential just gets more and more negative over time. If there’s a lead, it evaporates. If they’re behind, the game gets out of hand, like in the third. This is as consistent as it gets, whether Baron is playing with first or second teamers.

    no:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320307024
    http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320306006
    http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320304002

    that is three of the last five games, now please stop with that particular line of silliness.

  128. formido

    jon abbey: seriously? how much of that was another garbage time run? 5-18 with 6 turnovers is spectacular, well argued.

    Can you seriously not understand that there’s a lot more to winning basketball than that? The offense looks much more smooth and much more structured when Lin is in. It just does. The team has a purpose when he’s at point. If you refuse to acknowledge aggregate numbers which demonstrate this conclusively, I don’t know what to tell you.

  129. dogrufus

    jon abbey: hahahahahahaha, I’m really not trying to be insulting but that is the most lopsided trade proposal I may have ever seen. Indiana gives away West and Granger and gets back that pu-pu platter of poo, thank you for the best laugh I’ve had today.

    Makes me a little sad that a year ago today Amar’e/2 good role players for West and Granger would not be prima facie unreasonable

  130. er

    Lol stay off the pipe Novak couldn’t even move today

    dogrufus: Oh, I think Lin is just as good as he was during 7-0 Linsanity.If he was allowed to play with Novak/Jeffries/Tyson consistently and not have to labor with the millstones we call superstars, he’d probably look just as great as he looked during that stretch, and our team would have won some of these games.

    Amare and Melo are just terrible, below average players now.That is the new reality.Their reputations and contracts have gotten them more leeway than any other players would get and they just prove over and over that they aren’t even starter quality in this league, let alone stars.

    In the context of our team Novak is a better player than either of them.

  131. TheXman

    Lin played pretty bad with wild shots and telegraphed passes. He’s playing too out of control when he penetrates too, I guess his confidence is shaking and he may be thinking too much out there. Now this isn’t Melo’s fault, but Lin probably played like he had nothing to lose.

  132. jon abbey

    formido: Can you seriously not understand that there’s a lot more to winning basketball than that? The offense looks much more smooth and much more structured when Lin is in. It just does. The team has a purpose when he’s at point. If you refuse to acknowledge aggregate numbers which demonstrate this conclusively, I don’t know what to tell you.

    jesus christ, look at the box scores I just posted. your thesis holds no water.

  133. dogrufus

    jon abbey: no:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320307024
    http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320306006
    http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320304002

    that is three of the last five games, now please stop with that particular line of silliness.

    To be fair Jeremy Lin’s effectiveness is crippled because he has to play with our two worst rotation players most of the time.

    When he got to play with our better players (the bench) he posted great +/- every game.

  134. TheXman

    They’re fucking unmoveable. Bill Simmons called Amare an upcoming expiring contract in a couple of years, that’s how bad it’s gotten. Amare is like a good old Antonio McDyess.

    Will the Thrill:
    The team with Amare and Melo can’t win.But the team without Melo and Amare can’t win either (against good teams).But this can be easily fixed, make some trades! Move some players!

  135. er

    Yea ur love affair with lin

    formido: Can you seriously not understand that there’s a lot more to winning basketball than that? The offense looks much more smooth and much more structured when Lin is in. It just does. The team has a purpose when he’s at point. If you refuse to acknowledge aggregate numbers which demonstrate this conclusively, I don’t know what to tell you.

  136. jon abbey

    I’m not the one comparing Lin and Baron, but Baron had a +46 over Lin in those three games combined, so formido’s thesis is absurd. neither one of them has been anything to write home about lately.

  137. 2010

    Making the playoffs or even winning a few rounds is worthless. The team has sucked for so long the fans deserve a team that can contending for a championship. This isn’t it. They need to see if trading for Dwight is an option and start over. Again.

  138. d-mar

    They gave up 38 points IN ONE QUARTER! At home, to an average offensive team. That is truly disturbing, this team is broken.

  139. dogrufus

    er:
    Lol stay off the pipe Novak couldn’t even move today

    Novak -5 in 26 min
    Melo -16 in 29
    Amare -12 in 29

    I’ll stay on the pipe, thanks. If Novak couldn’t move, and still helped our team more than Melo/STATue, what does it say about them?

  140. formido

    jon abbey: seriously? how much of that was another garbage time run? 5-18 with 6 turnovers is spectacular, well argued.

    Also, garbage time? The Knicks were up 5-7 when Lin first went out. Baron lost the lead. When Baron ran point with Lin on the court in the third, Philly got a lead. When Lin went out, the lead ballooned.

    Same pattern at Milwaukee. If you doubt me, please watch future games with this in mind. Stats are meaningless. Let me rephrase, stats are only meaningful to the extent that they reflect winning basketball. Lin’s affect on point differential when he’s running point is so much better than Davis it’s not funny. Even when Lin is on the floor but Davis is running point, the Knicks do worse.

  141. jon abbey

    TheXman:
    They’re fucking unmoveable.Bill Simmons called Amare an upcoming expiring contract in a couple of years, that’s how bad it’s gotten.Amare is like a good old Antonio McDyess.

    it’s like when Elton Brand fell off a cliff, he at least figured out a way to be an OK role player. I am so sick of watching Amare’s legs rooted in concrete as a rebound goes just over his head.

  142. er

    Lmao ur such an ass …they played a bunch of bad teams and barely won….they just played 5 solid teams in a row

    dogrufus: To be fair Jeremy Lin’s effectiveness is crippled because he has to play with our two worst rotation players most of the time.

    When he got to play with our better players (the bench) he posted great +/- every game.

  143. ruruland

    Tyson Chandler has the worst +/- on the team. So, you might want to re-calibrate your arguments.

  144. The Infamous Cdiggy

    Will the Thrill:
    It’s awesome for the Knicks, good for Orlando, and absolutely awful for Indiana.

    prolly a stretch, but let me have a shot at Indiana’s rationale:
    people been saying that Granger is (somewhat?) expendable b/c of Paul George. They get a frontcourt-scoring 4 while sliding George to the 3 with Big Baby a capable backup (or trade fodder). George Hill, sharpshooter JJ Redick at the 2 and Landry to back-up P.George at the 3.

  145. dogrufus

    jon abbey:
    I’m not the one comparing Lin and Baron, but Baron had a +46 over Lin in those three games combined, so formido’s thesis is absurd. neither one of them has been anything to write home about lately.

    If Baron had to play with our twin millstones as much as Lin did, Lin would probably have a +64 over him. Notice how we get massacred every 3rd quarter, as if Melo and STATue spend the entire halftime pounding shots of whisky?

  146. er

    Lol yea that includes garbage time today smarty pants

    dogrufus: Novak -5in 26 min
    Melo -16 in 29
    Amare -12 in 29

    I’ll stay on the pipe, thanks.If Novak couldn’t move, and still helped our team more than Melo/STATue, what does it say about them?

  147. jon abbey

    formido: Also, garbage time? The Knicks were up 5-7 when Lin first went out. Baron lost the lead. When Baron ran point with Lin on the court in the third, Philly got a lead. When Lin went out, the lead ballooned.

    Same pattern at Milwaukee. If you doubt me, please watch future games with this in mind. Stats are meaningless. Let me rephrase, stats are only meaningful to the extent that they reflect winning basketball. Lin’s affect on point differential when he’s running point is so much better than Davis it’s not funny. Even when Lin is on the floor but Davis is running point, the Knicks do worse.

    I do watch games with this in mind, and I’ve come to the exact opposite conclusion. Lin really isn’t a starter in this league at this point (maybe in the future), unfortunately this incarnation of Baron might not be much better.

    so how do you explain the massive +/- numbers in the three games before Milwaukee or have you caved on that line of argument?

  148. limpidgimp

    I’m cringing about the upcoming Bulls game. Hopefully they will show up to play for national TV.

  149. TheXman

    All the fans were right though fearing when Melo came back they would go back to losing. It’s not his fault, we probably would’ve lost anyways with Melo and Amare. I think without those two, we would’ve been more competitive, something about them are just blackholes, vacuums on both ends. You just can’t explain it, everything they touch or do turns bad.

  150. jon abbey

    Joe Posnanski ? @JPosnanski

    Watching the Knicks play now is so depressing. Linsanity ended more quickly than Kardashian marriage.

  151. Will the Thrill

    There is no way in hell Melo is unmoveable. I kind of agree with Amare though.

    TheXman:
    They’re fucking unmoveable.Bill Simmons called Amare an upcoming expiring contract in a couple of years, that’s how bad it’s gotten.Amare is like a good old Antonio McDyess.

  152. ruruland

    TheXman: All the fans were right though fearing when Melo came back they would go back to losing. It’s not his fault, we probably would’ve lost anyways with Melo and Amare. I think without those two, we would’ve been more competitive, something about them are just blackholes, vacuums on both ends. You just can’t explain it, everything they touch or do turns bad.

    They have a much longer history of winning than anyone else on this team, sans Chandler.

    Chandler, btw, has the worst +/- profile on the team.

  153. er

    Don’t say that to the people who wanna manipulate…like the guy who said Novak played better then melo lmao I’m done going to the park it’s nice today

    ruruland:
    Tyson Chandler has the worst +/- on the team. So, you might want to re-calibrate your arguments.

  154. 2010

    I still think Orlando would trade Dwight for Melo and the Nets would trade Williams for Stat instead of risking losing them for nothing.

  155. dogrufus

    er:
    Lmao ur such an ass …they played a bunch of bad teams and barely won….they just played 5 solid teams in a row

    Today I Learned the Bucks without their 2 best players are a solid team.

    They also beat the Lakers during Lin’s run, and the Mavs… better teams than we’ve ever beat with our twin millstones.

    If you haven’t noticed, you’re the only one hurling personal insults. That’s not the way we do things here. Persist, and I won’t bother correcting your ignorance any further.

  156. Jake S.

    2010:
    I still think Orlando would trade Dwight for Melo and the Nets would trade Williams for Stat instead of risking losing them for nothing.

    And you, sir, would be wrong.

  157. TheXman

    jon abbey: it’s like when Elton Brand fell off a cliff, he at least figured out a way to be an OK role player. I am so sick of watching Amare’s legs rooted in concrete as a rebound goes just over his head.

    The best was when Amare just had his back turned under the rim, and Evan Turner just dunked on him. Amare turned around didn’t know what happened….lol just fucking CLUELESS. If he weren’t a max player and didn’t have his reputation, he would’ve gotten yanked. Melo also disappeared after the 2nd.

  158. jon abbey

    2010:
    I still think Orlando would trade Dwight for Melo and the Nets would trade Williams for Stat instead of risking losing them for nothing.

    make that Chandler and Melo for Howard and Turkoglu and Williams for Amare and Lin and you’d maybe have a shot.

    and yes, I’d do both of those in a split second, and then still fire D’Antoni.

  159. er

    I hope u guys get ur wish an he’s traded tho everyone will have to find a new scapegoat unfortunately

    TheXman:
    All the fans were right though fearing when Melo came back they would go back to losing.It’s not his fault, we probably would’ve lost anyways with Melo and Amare.I think without those two, we would’ve been more competitive, something about them are just blackholes, vacuums on both ends.You just can’t explain it, everything they touch or do turns bad.

  160. dogrufus

    er:
    Lol yea that includes garbage time today smarty pants

    We wouldn’t have garbage time if Melo and STATue weren’t objectively terrible game in and game out.

  161. ruruland

    er: Don’t say that to the people who wanna manipulate…like the guy who said Novak played better then melo lmao I’m done going to the park it’s nice today

    a) the meda and fanbase is going to do everything in its power to divide the team and make sure it doesn’t turn around b)the negativity will continue when/if the team turns it around

    Sixers made shots today. Half-court defense was pretty solid for the most part. the nights the Sixers shoot the ball like this they’re as good as anyone in this league.

  162. The Infamous Cdiggy

    jon abbey: hahahahahahaha, I’m really not trying to be insulting but that is the most lopsided trade proposal I may have ever seen. Indiana gives away West and Granger and gets back that pu-pu platter of poo, thank you for the best laugh I’ve had today.

    I admit you’d have to do a good sales job on Amar’e being able to regain form, but then again, who’s Indiana’s bona fide top dog???.
    And Amar’e is not > West ?? Maybe this year it’s even – maybe

  163. er

    Dude had 22 in three quarters …real terrible

    dogrufus: We wouldn’t have garbage time if Melo and STATue weren’t objectively terrible game in and game out.

  164. Jake S.

    2010: Well wrong or right, the Knicks better make those calls to find out.

    I’m with you, but I think at the very least they’ll try this roster with a different coach. Due diligence and all that.

  165. nicos

    formido: Also, garbage time? The Knicks were up 5-7 when Lin first went out. Baron lost the lead. When Baron ran point with Lin on the court in the third, Philly got a lead. When Lin went out, the lead ballooned.

    Same pattern at Milwaukee. If you doubt me, please watch future games with this in mind. Stats are meaningless. Let me rephrase, stats are only meaningful to the extent that they reflect winning basketball. Lin’s affect on point differential when he’s running point is so much better than Davis it’s not funny. Even when Lin is on the floor but Davis is running point, the Knicks do worse.

    Davis had a better +/- than Lin in the Miami, Boston, Dallas, and SA- so four out of the last seven games. Lin played really well against Milwaukee, other than that he hasn’t been great, today included. Also, the Knicks defensive issues start in the backcourt- they allow way too much dribble penetration. Anyone who thinks the Knicks lost the game because of Amar’e's defense is seriously crazy.

  166. TheXman

    Honestly I say just keep the current team and develop Lin over the summer. Out of sheer generosity, maybe Nash takes a paycut and we retain Lin somehow. Keep Novak, lose JR Smith. On paper of course we look “talented” lol.

    Or we can just tank, because we have our 2013 draft pick.

  167. ruruland

    TheXman: The best was when Amare just had his back turned under the rim, and Evan Turner just dunked on him. Amare turned around didn’t know what happened….lol just fucking CLUELESS. If he weren’t a max player and didn’t have his reputation, he would’ve gotten yanked. Melo also disappeared after the 2nd.

    6 offensive rebounds, 3 assists, 12 free throws and 1 turnover in 29 minutes is very good production.

    He missed shots but he was a killer on the offensive boards, made the proper passes within the structure of the offense.

    Highest TS% on the team outside of the catch and shoot Novak.

    Sixers made shots tonight. The only thing that will keep this team from turning it around are external agendas trying to divide.. That, during a losing streak, bleeds into the team’s collective psyche.

    Knicks fans get exactly what they deserve.

  168. Will the Thrill

    What’s up with all of this +/- stuff? This has always been a deceiving stat, and it surely does not tell which players are better than other players. Novak did not play better than Melo, but Melo didn’t play good. Since he is our “best player”, he probably should. Lin struggled all game, and Baron sucked too. Something needs to change on this roster, and I think it will.

  169. Dan Panorama

    I’ve been a strong D’antoni defender this whole time but this was the first game I really thought he might have to go, certainly at the end of the season. Team was just totally listless on the bench, no one seemed to give a shit. It’s like they all quit. That kind of attitude is a coaching problem, not just a player problem.

  170. ruruland

    TheXman: Honestly I say just keep the current team and develop Lin over the summer. Out of sheer generosity, maybe Nash takes a paycut and we retain Lin somehow. Keep Novak, lose JR Smith. On paper of course we look “talented” lol. Or we can just tank, because we have our 2013 draft pick.

    You’re all over the place.

    Line has a 5-18 night with 6 turnovers, and he’s been awful every time he’s faced good defenses, he’s been the biggest problem defenisvely during this strtech, yet he’s the apple of your eye.

    It’s Melo’s fault he’s playing poorly, which is really fascinating.

  171. Will the Thrill

    It seems like every game you are acting like there was nothing the Knicks could’ve done to win because the other team played so well. The Celtics were amazing so we couldn’t beat them, the Bucks got hot from deep so we couldn’t beat them, and the Sixers “made shots tonight” so we couldn’t beat them.

    ruruland: 6 offensive rebounds, 3 assists, 12 free throws and 1 turnover in 29 minutes is very good production.

    He missed shots but he was a killer on the offensive boards, made the proper passes within the structure of the offense.

    Highest TS% on the team outside of the catch and shoot Novak.

    Sixers made shots tonight. The only thing that will keep this team from turning it around are external agendas trying to divide.. That, during a losing streak, bleeds into the team’s collective psyche.

    Knicks fans get exactly what they deserve.

  172. Jake S.

    Dan Panorama:
    I’ve been a strong D’antoni defender this whole time but this was the first game I really thought he might have to go, certainly at the end of the season. Team was just totally listless on the bench, no one seemed to give a shit. It’s like they all quit. That kind of attitude is a coaching problem, not just a player problem.

    I’m with Dan Panorama. It’s entirely possible that the game has passed D’Antoni by.

  173. 2010

    Jake S.: I’m with you, but I think at the very least they’ll try this roster with a different coach. Due diligence and all that.

    I’ve always been a big fan of D’Antoni. He’s not doing a good job motivating players (who shouldn’t need to be motivated) or figuring out how to get the players to mesh. For all the talk about “can melo play with stat” it seems like the much better question is “can melo play for D’Antoni? I think changing coaches ultimately wouldn’t make more than a few games difference over the season.

  174. jon abbey

    ruruland, “he was a killer on the offensive boards”. how many of those were of his own missed and blocked layups?

    “Knicks fans get exactly what they deserve.”

    I am a fan of yours as you know, but go fuck yourself with this. I’ve been rooting for this team since I was a kid (30+ years at this point) and have been rewarded with zero titles, I do not deserve James Dolan and his organization of shittiness. if this is really how you feel, go away.

  175. dogrufus

    er:
    Dude had 22 in three quarters …real terrible

    Big deal, Louis Williams had more on less shots and less minutes while playing less bad D.

    Someone on the other team always does that. Has there been a single game this season where Amare or Melo has been the best player on the court?

  176. ruruland

    Will the Thrill: What’s up with all of this +/- stuff? This has always been a deceiving stat, and it surely does not tell which players are better than other players. Novak did not play better than Melo, but Melo didn’t play good. Since he is our “best player”, he probably should. Lin struggled all game, and Baron sucked too. Something needs to change on this roster, and I think it will.

    60+TS with 9 rebounds and a 3-1 turnover differential in 29 minutes is excellent….It’s not like any of his shots were a result of others setting him up. he was creating double teams, which resulted in 3 of Lin’s baskets, and other weakisde opportunities.

    Defensively he was making team rotations, getting back and transition and making the proper play. he gave space on a couple of below average 3 pt shooters whp happened to make shots.

    he wasn’t unbelievale, but he was placed on the bench when he had his stroke going, and not allowed to play in the fourth quarter.

  177. jon abbey

    Dan Panorama:
    I’ve been a strong D’antoni defender this whole time but this was the first game I really thought he might have to go, certainly at the end of the season. Team was just totally listless on the bench, no one seemed to give a shit. It’s like they all quit. That kind of attitude is a coaching problem, not just a player problem.

    exactly, the rotations seem random and desperate, a good chunk of the team doesn’t seem to care.

    D’Antoni’s laissez-faire approach doesn’t work without Steve Nash running the team on the court, it’s pretty obvious at this point.

  178. limpidgimp

    ruruland: The only thing that will keep this team from turning it around are external agendas trying to divide.. That, during a losing streak, bleeds into the team’s collective psyche.

    Knicks fans get exactly what they deserve.

    I wonder if Melo ever reads these boards with so many fans hating on him. It must be like getting mentally gangbanged by a mob.

  179. The Infamous Cdiggy

    TheXman:
    Honestly I say just keep the current team and develop Lin over the summer.Out of sheer generosity, maybe Nash takes a paycut and we retain Lin somehow.Keep Novak, lose JR Smith.On paper of course we look “talented” lol.

    Or we can just tank, because we have our 2013 draft pick.

    I think this is probably the most logical and realistic route. Take the summer for Shump Shump to get a better clue on offense (improve on finishing around the rim, work on that J), Lin to tighten his handle and react to double-teams as well as working to stay in front of his man, Landry to revive his outside J (esp from deep), and Amar’e to get his back in order and find that missing lift. A full summer, a full training camp. Then let it rip and use the first half of next season to decide if the pieces can once-and-for-all fit.

  180. Bruno Almeida

    ruruland: 6 offensive rebounds, 3 assists, 12 free throws and 1 turnover in 29 minutes is very good production.

    He missed shots but he was a killer on the offensive boards, made the proper passes within the structure of the offense.

    Highest TS% on the team outside of the catch and shoot Novak.

    Sixers made shots tonight. The only thing that will keep this team from turning it around are external agendas trying to divide.. That, during a losing streak, bleeds into the team’s collective psyche.

    Knicks fans get exactly what they deserve.

    sorry man, I agree that the media loves it, but to say that the fanbase has something to do with it is not right.

    fanbases don’t mean anything in the game, Indiana has a super depressing fanbase and they’re much better this year, Portland has an absolutely awesome fanbase and they suck this year.

    just look at how much scrutiny Miami has faced, and they’re the best team in the game… how can you explain that all the negativity, the fair weather fan base hasn’t damaged Miami’s “collective psyche”?

  181. 2010

    Will the Thrill:
    It seems like every game you are acting like there was nothing the Knicks could’ve done to win because the other team played so well.The Celtics were amazing so we couldn’t beat them, the Bucks got hot from deep so we couldn’t beat them, and the Sixers “made shots tonight” so we couldn’t beat them.

    Yeah, how many times does another player come in against the Knicks and have the game of his career? This is a Knicks problem, not some sort of “luck” or “Hot shooting”

  182. Will the Thrill

    No…

    dogrufus: Big deal, Louis Williams had more on less shots and less minutes while playing less bad D.

    Someone on the other team always does that.Has there been a single game this season where Amare or Melo has been the best player on the court?

  183. jon abbey

    The Infamous Cdiggy: I think this is probably the most logical and realistic route.Take the summer for Shump Shump to get a better clue on offense (improve on finishing around the rim, work on that J), Lin to tighten his handle and react to double-teams as well as working to stay in front of his man, Landry to revive his outside J (esp from deep), and Amar’e to get his back in order and find that missing lift.A full summer, a full training camp.Then let it rip and use the first half of next season to decide if the pieces can once-and-for-all fit.

    I’m fine with this if they can’t trade for Howard, but D’Antoni should not be the man in charge next year.

  184. ruruland

    Will the Thrill: It seems like every game you are acting like there was nothing the Knicks could’ve done to win because the other team played so well. The Celtics were amazing so we couldn’t beat them, the Bucks got hot from deep so we couldn’t beat them, and the Sixers “made shots tonight” so we couldn’t beat them.

    Yes, that’s true. The defense could have been better, but in the NBA, there are nights when teams make shots. When those teams are good defensively, it’s very difficult to win.

    I saw defensive improvements today, but a Sixers team that was really hot shooting jumpers.

    I watch as much NBA as anyone here, and I would be willing to bet I’ve watched as much of this league as anyone the last 10-15 years.

    The defense was really poor against San Antonio. Proper defensive adjustments were made against the Bucks, but they were hot, too.

    It’s all happening at once. It will turn around so long as the team stays together– that’s something I’m questioning at this point. And I think a big reason it could fall apart is the market they’re in.

  185. Will the Thrill

    Yeah it’s not other teams EVERY GAME. The Knicks’ play is the reason they are losing.

    2010: Yeah, how many times does another player come in against the Knicks and have the game of his career? This is a Knicks problem, not some sort of “luck” or “Hot shooting”

  186. dogrufus

    ruruland: 60+TS with 9 rebounds and a 3-1 turnover differential in 29 minutes is excellent….It’s not like any of his shots were a result of others setting him up. he was creating double teams, which resulted in 3 of Lin’s baskets, and other weakisde opportunities.

    Defensively he was making team rotations, getting back and transition and making the proper play. he gave space on a couple of below average 3 pt shooters whp happened to make shots.

    he wasn’t unbelievale, but he was placed on the bench when he had his stroke going, and not allowed to play in the fourth quarter.

    Melo: 22 pts on 61% TS, 9 reb 3 ast

    Iguodala: 19 pts on 79% TS, 7 reb 8 ast 4 stl

    Do you see the problem? Even on one of Melo’s better games of the season his counterpart destroys him because he’s one dimensional and doesn’t play defense half the time.

    Melo’s a one dimensional player, and his one dimension isn’t even that great. Not when Iguodala, Dunleavy, you name it just destroy him night in and night out.

  187. ruruland

    Bruno Almeida: sorry man, I agree that the media loves it, but to say that the fanbase has something to do with it is not right.fanbases don’t mean anything in the game, Indiana has a super depressing fanbase and they’re much better this year, Portland has an absolutely awesome fanbase and they suck this year.just look at how much scrutiny Miami has faced, and they’re the best team in the game… how can you explain that all the negativity, the fair weather fan base hasn’t damaged Miami’s “collective psyche”?

    Well, perhaps it’s the media creating that perception about the fanbase. But if there wasn’t a huge demand for stories that slowly divide the team, then the media would search for those storylines.

    Not necessarily the fanbases fault. There’s no doubt Knicks fans have great passion, but this is not the environment to build a team in.

    It’s a toxis, destructive media environment. I’m not saying it’s the reason the Knicks have struggled, put it certainly compounds the issues in a lot of different ways.

  188. Will the Thrill

    If he is, good. He has done nothing to try to prove us wrong.

    limpidgimp: I wonder if Melo ever reads these boards with so many fans hating on him. It must be like getting mentally gangbanged by a mob.

  189. dogrufus

    limpidgimp: I wonder if Melo ever reads these boards with so many fans hating on him. It must be like getting mentally gangbanged by a mob.

    If he doesn’t care enough to pay attention and put forth effort during the actual games half the time, why would he care enough read about it on his personal time?

    Were I in his position, I’d rather bang groupies and spend cash than read the rantings of a bunch of nerds with Battered Fan Syndrome.

  190. Will the Thrill

    Okay, sweet. You have to backtrack to literally the first game of the season where one of our max players was the best on the court.

    er:
    1st game of the season 37 n 11 game winnin ft but I’m really going out now good day gents

  191. ruruland

    dogrufus: Melo: 22 pts on 61% TS, 9 reb 3 astIguodala: 19 pts on 79% TS, 7 reb 8 ast 4 stlDo you see the problem? Even on one of Melo’s better games of the season his counterpart destroys him because he’s one dimensional and doesn’t play defense half the time. Melo’s a one dimensional player, and his one dimension isn’t even that great. Not when Iguodala, Dunleavy, you name it just destroy him night in and night out.

    4 of Iggy’s six makes were in transition off long rebounds or turnovers.

    That has nothing to do with Iggy’s offense or Melo’s defense.

    Melo’s won his Iggy matchup the vast majority of his NBA career. Giving him space is the right defense– he’s a poor 3pt shooter.

    That 4 play is indicative of where this team’s luck is right now.

  192. dogrufus

    er:
    1st game of the season 37 n 11 game winnin ft but I’m really going out now good day gents

    Oh, so there was one, just 40 games ago. You sure showed me.

  193. jon abbey

    ruruland: Well, perhaps it’s the media creating that perception about the fanbase. But if there wasn’t a huge demand for stories that slowly divide the team, then the media would search for those storylines.

    Not necessarily the fanbases fault. There’s no doubt Knicks fans have great passion, but this is not the environment to build a team in.

    It’s a toxic, destructive media environment. I’m not saying it’s the reason the Knicks have struggled, put it certainly compounds the issues in a lot of different ways.

    it’s the OWNER, not the fan base! the owner is the one ultimately responsible. you could say the exact same things about the Red Sox before John Henry bought the team, cleaned house, rebuilt from the ground up, and won two titles.

  194. The Infamous Cdiggy

    jon abbey: I’m fine with this if they can’t trade for Howard, but D’Antoni should not be the man in charge next year.

    Two things Mr Abbey (or anyone):
    1. If D’Antoni goes, should the team go after Chief Triangle? And if so, how does that affect the development of J Lin given the triangle is kind of an anti-PG system?

    2. You really think Indiana’s getting the crap end of the stick of my proposed trade? Make a case that an “average” Amar’e is not better than either Granger or West. I’m not that great with the advanced stat stuff as you probably are, but I (friendly) challenge you.

  195. ruruland

    dogrufus: Melo: 22 pts on 61% TS, 9 reb 3 astIguodala: 19 pts on 79% TS, 7 reb 8 ast 4 stlDo you see the problem? Even on one of Melo’s better games of the season his counterpart destroys him because he’s one dimensional and doesn’t play defense half the time. Melo’s a one dimensional player, and his one dimension isn’t even that great. Not when Iguodala, Dunleavy, you name it just destroy him night in and night out.

    He has an opponenet PER under 12 for the year. I would say about 30-40 percent of Dunleavy and Iggy’s production is attributable to Melo’s defense in the half court the last two games.

  196. Will the Thrill

    It definitely would. But I would prefer younger players, and maybe a draft pick.

    ess-dog:
    Maybe Dallas would do Odom/Marion for Melo?That would actually make us a lot better.

  197. Bruno Almeida

    ruruland: Well, perhaps it’s the media creating that perception about the fanbase. But if there wasn’t a huge demand for stories that slowly divide the team, then the media would search for those storylines.

    Not necessarily the fanbases fault. There’s no doubt Knicks fans have great passion, but this is not the environment to build a team in.

    It’s a toxis, destructive media environment. I’m not saying it’s the reason the Knicks have struggled, put it certainly compounds the issues in a lot of different ways.

    I don’t know man, then how about Boston?

    Boston is the crown jewel of media negativity, they go to the Super Bowl for the 5th time in 10 years and the media kills them and hangs Brady and Welker out to dry… the Bruins win a Stanley Cup and all the media talks about is how Tim Thomas refused to go the White House… the Red Sox are being treated like they are the Royals right now… Rondo gets involved in a trade rumour every 2 minutes and the media kills him for not being able to shoot / not wanting to get fouled on crunch time.

    and yet, the Celtics, after years and years of futility, built a great team, won a title and nothing the media said about it mattered one bit.

    if you’re a multi-millionaire professional athlete and you let what the media says get to you, then maybe you should look for a different job.

  198. er

    Lol I don’t remember every game we won…I no he did in wash and against Detroit and some others but it don’t matter u not gonna like the dude so it is what it is bruh

    Will the Thrill:
    Okay, sweet.You have to backtrack to literally the first game of the season where one of our max players was the best on the court.

  199. 2010

    dogrufus: Oh, so there was one, just 40 games ago.You sure showed me.

    Rondo’s line from that game: 31 points (11/19), 13 assists, 5 rebounds and 5 steals

  200. ruruland

    P>if you’re a multi-millionaire professional athlete and you let what the media says get to you, then maybe you should look for a different job.

    That’s a really conveniant thing to say if you’re a fan here.

    But, let’s be honest, these guys aren’t robots. They’re human. There’s a very small percentage of the population that wouldn’t let it affect them.

  201. The Infamous Cdiggy

    dogrufus: If he doesn’t care enough to pay attention and put forth effort during the actual games half the time, why would he care enough read about it on his personal time?

    Were I in his position, I’d rather bang groupies and spend cash than read the rantings of a bunch of nerds with Battered Fan Syndrome.

    You do realize he is (very publicly) married, right? (lol)

  202. jon abbey

    The Infamous Cdiggy: Two things Mr Abbey (or anyone):
    1. If D’Antoni goes, should the team go after Chief Triangle? And if so, how does that affect the development of J Lin given the triangle is kind of an anti-PG system?

    2. You really think Indiana’s getting the crap end of the stick of my proposed trade?Make a case that an “average” Amar’e is not better than either Granger or West.I’m not that great with the advanced stat stuff as you probably are, but I (friendly) challenge you.

    if they’re going to keep Melo, then maybe Jackson is a good choice, but really I’d like a hard-ass disciplinarian. I don’t have a good answer here, but I know D’Antoni is not it.

    as for the trade, I think Amare is a net negative right now until proven otherwise. his offense is sporadic at best, his rebounding and D have always been terrible.

  203. 2010

    Will the Thrill:
    It definitely would.But I would prefer younger players, and maybe a draft pick.

    I think Dallas is hoping for Dwight and Williams- thats why they ripped their team apart after winning the championship

  204. Bruno Almeida

    ruruland: That’s a really conveniant thing to say if you’re a fan here.

    But, let’s be honest, these guys aren’t robots. They’re human. There’s a very small percentage of the population that wouldn’t let it affect them.

    sorry, but there’s also a MUCH SMALLER percentage of the population that gets paid 20 million a year to play basketball.

    they’re humans, not robots, but it’s really easy to want all the good things about being an NBA player and not want any responsibility with it… if you want to get paid 20 mil. a year to play basketball, then I think it’s only fair enough that you’ll be treated to higher standards of criticism.

  205. ruruland

    jon abbey: it’s the OWNER, not the fan base! the owner is the one ultimately responsible. you could say the exact same things about the Red Sox before John Henry bought the team, cleaned house, rebuilt from the ground up, and won two titles.

    True.

    I agree with that to an extent.

    The team construction isn’t necessarily ideal, nor is the coach implement a versatile enough offense to fully exploit it, nor does he stress or coach/create defensive culture.

  206. dogrufus

    ruruland: 4 of Iggy’s six makes were in transition off long rebounds or turnovers.

    That has nothing to do with Iggy’s offense or Melo’s defense.

    Melo’s won his Iggy matchup the vast majority of his NBA career. Giving him space is the right defense– he’s a poor 3pt shooter.

    That 4 play is indicative of where this team’s luck is right now.

    Really? Melo’s lazy transition defense and mediocre conditioning have nothing at all to do with Iguodala killing us in transition, or with every opposing team killing us in transition on a nightly basis?

    Philly only committed 2 less turnovers than us. Why can’t Melo get easy buckets in transition?

    If Melo was playing such smart defense and giving Iggy his shot, why did he get a 4 point play on Melo?

    Melo, like STATue, has done a lot of things for the majority of his career that he has shown a greatly diminished ability to do now. For this season, he’s a below average NBA player- a millstone around the neck of this team both on the court and on the salary cap. Thankfully he’s still scraping together enough of the holy grail stat (points per game) that the league hasn’t yet fully caught on to how overrated he is.

  207. jon abbey

    NY has the worst third quarter scoring margin in the entire league, -8.3. let that one sink in for a second, worse than every other team…

    D’Antoni gets outcoached seemingly every single game.

  208. Doug

    dogrufus: If he doesn’t care enough to pay attention and put forth effort during the actual games half the time, why would he care enough read about it on his personal time?

    It’s not an issue of not caring enough but an issue of not caring what anonymous strangers think of you.

    I don’t think any pro athlete should be poring over comment sections of fan blogs on his or her personal time. That’d be a sign of insecurity and there’s nothing good that can come of it.

  209. dogrufus

    And ruruland, wad Melo also applying his clever strategy of not contesting open threes against Dunleavy?

    What mental gymnastics will you employ to explain that 25/5/4 on 74% TS performance?

    Is it too much to ask that our superstar SF not consistently give up from opposing SF’s better games than any he’s had this whole season?

  210. ruruland

    Bruno Almeida: sorry, but there’s also a MUCH SMALLER percentage of the population that gets paid 20 million a year to play basketball.they’re humans, not robots, but it’s really easy to want all the good things about being an NBA player and not want any responsibility with it… if you want to get paid 20 mil. a year to play basketball, then I think it’s only fair enough that you’ll be treated to higher standards of criticism.

    I don’t think he is shying away from the criticism. Some of it has been fair, much of it hasn’t.

    And, sure, the amount of money he gets paid I suppose is criterion for the proportion of criticism he recieves. Still doesn’t seem conmiserate.

    But, my point isn’t necessarily whether it’s just or not, it’s more about the enivornment for creating and building a good basketball team. This isn’t baseball or football.

    Media has a much greater ability to affect the fragile chemistry in this sport. By trying to divide and tear down players, specifically combinations of guys, it’s quite disruptive. Players spend a lot of their time conducting interviews and answering questions.

    EVen if they didn’t care about their perception or read the rags, they know the question askers line of reasoning through his questions.

  211. dogrufus

    jon abbey: it’s the OWNER, not the fan base! the owner is the one ultimately responsible. you could say the exact same things about the Red Sox before John Henry bought the team, cleaned house, rebuilt from the ground up, and won two titles.

    Yes Dolan is the cancer, but he has as much likelihood of parting with the Knicks as a feudal lord does of parting with his land.

  212. er

    Lol fans are blaming him for illoyasylva and dunleavy so he was playing both all game lmao wow

    dogrufus:
    And ruruland, wad Melo also applying his clever strategy of not contesting open threes against Dunleavy?

    What mental gymnastics will you employ to explain that 25/5/4 on 74% TS performance?

    Is it too much to ask that our superstar SF not consistently give up from opposing SF’s better games than any he’s had this whole season?

  213. jon abbey

    ruruland, again, mad respect for your overall knowledge, but you’re showing your ignorance of NY here, so please stop. the problem is on the court and in the organization, nowhere else.

  214. ruruland

    dogrufus: And ruruland, wad Melo also applying his clever strategy of not contesting open threes against Dunleavy?What mental gymnastics will you employ to explain that 25/5/4 on 74% TS performance?Is it too much to ask that our superstar SF not consistently give up from opposing SF’s better games than any he’s had this whole season?

    I’d be happy to go through the video of the game.

    If you want to use this line of reasoning, understand that Melo’s opp. PEr on the year is one of the lower marks on the team.

    He hasn’t been great in transition this year, but he was back tonight for the most part. He was the only one back to break up Turner’s layup.

    Philly is a great transition team. When they make shots, they’re as good as any team in basketball.

  215. dogrufus

    2. You really think Indiana’s getting the crap end of the stick of my proposed trade?Make a case that an “average” Amar’e is not better than either Granger or West.I’m not that great with the advanced stat stuff as you probably are, but I (friendly) challenge you.

    Dude, not to be a jerk, but that fact that you aren’t familiar with the stats is the only conceivable reason you could think this is anything but a franchise-killing disaster of a trade for IND. This season Amare has been one of the worst rotation players in the entire league, on both ends of the court. It’s not just that he doesn’t live up to a max contact, it’s that if he didn’t have that contract he might not be an NBA player right now.

  216. er

    I really want him to be traded it’s so hilarious that every game is his fault when u got ur pg out there looking like a d leaguer hahahaha cool

  217. jon abbey

    dogrufus: Yes Dolan is the cancer, but he has as much likelihood of parting with the Knicks as a feudal lord does of parting with his land.

    I agree, as long as people are buying his obscenely overpriced tickets. if the Garden was half-empty for a year, it’d be interesting to see what happened then.

  218. Caleb

    Thanks to our brilliant ownership this team has no real salary flexibility until 2015 – not to mention that Amare is untradeable, so no point really trying to clean house at this point.

    I know what the mainstream view is, but can you say with a straight face that Carmelo is a better player than Iguodala, who’s $6-7 million a year cheaper? Not better scorer, but better player?

    Since this particular “core” clearly isn’t going to be a contender, ever, I’d try and mix things up. Dwight Howard might not be available, but you’d improve just trading Carmelo for Iguodala. Or another good player not making $20 million. And pray that Lin, Shumpert, Harrelson, etc. can be good rotation players.

  219. dogrufus

    er:
    Lol fans are blaming him for illoyasylva and dunleavy so he was playing both all game lmao wow

    No, Amare is blamed for Ilyasova. We have two millstones on this team, plenty of blame to go around.

    I thought you were leaving, bro!

  220. Bruno Almeida

    ruruland: I don’t think he is shying away from the criticism. Some of it has been fair, much of it hasn’t.

    And, sure, the amount of money he gets paid I suppose is criterion for the proportion of criticism he recieves. Still doesn’t seem conmiserate.

    But, my point isn’t necessarily whether it’s just or not, it’s more about the enivornment for creating and building a good basketball team. This isn’t baseball or football.

    Media has a much greater ability to affect the fragile chemistry in this sport. By trying to divide and tear down players, specifically combinations of guys, it’s quite disruptive. Players spend a lot of their time conducting interviews and answering questions.

    EVen if they didn’t care about their perception or read the rags, they know the question askers line of reasoning through his questions.

    what you say does make sense, but I don’t think the environment plays such a large role on a team’s success.

    for all we know, the 2000′s Lakers had one of the most toxic locker rooms in recent age and they won 3 titles… nobody liked playing with Michael Jordan and his maniacal demands for teammates, but they worked and had success.

    the media can disrupt chemistry on a team, but a really good team with the right players wouldn’t be affected. the fact that this team is potentially so affected by media talk just shows that it’s not a good mix of players / coaching staff / stupid m******** president.

  221. ruruland

    jon abbey: ruruland, again, mad respect for your overall knowledge, but you’re showing your ignorance of NY here, so please stop. the problem is on the court and in the organization, nowhere else.

    No need to get defensive. It’s not a personal criticism, really.

    The problems absolutely start from the top and are on the court. My point is that it’s more difficult to get through this kind of deal in this market than others — you have to deal with things other organizations don’t when you’re losing. That’s fairly obvious.

    And again, it’s not like the other sports.

  222. art vandelay

    Just think a week ago some of us were calling for Grunwald to win Exec. of the Year!!! This rollercoaster ride keeps bouncing us back and forth…I have major whiplash!

  223. Bruno Almeida

    art vandelay:
    Just think a week ago some of us were calling for Grunwald to win Exec. of the Year!!! This rollercoaster ride keeps bouncing us back and forth…I have major whiplash!

    he still has done an awesome job with the hand he was dealt… it’s not his fault we have two massively overpaid superstars.

  224. er

    Yea u are right I was but jus checked back on mobile real quick I’m about to try to play better than the Knicks lmaooooo good dAy for real tho enjoy the chatter guys

    dogrufus: No, Amare is blamed for Ilyasova.We have two millstones on this team, plenty of blame to go around.

    I thought you were leaving, bro!

  225. dogrufus

    jon abbey: I agree, as long as people are buying his obscenely overpriced tickets. if the Garden was half-empty for a year, it’d be interesting to see what happened then.

    The problem is that given the size and wealth of NYC, and the interest in Jeremy Lin, that’s virtually impossible. Tickets will sell no matter what, and even if you massively cut the team’s profitability it’ll still be profitable, and Dolan will just hold on until we get mediocre or acquire another overpriced superstar which will start the frenzy again. Dolan having Lin is like the ring of power falling into the hands of Sauron.

    This city is STARVED for good basketball like a horde of wanderers in the desert starved for water. Dolan owns the only well. A boycott isn’t going to happen. If you don’t want to buy his water for $100, some other wanderer will.

  226. jon abbey

    ruruland: No need to get defensive. It’s not a personal criticism, really.

    The problems absolutely start from the top and are on the court. My point is that it’s more difficult to get through this kind of deal in this market than others — you have to deal with things other organizations don’t when you’re losing. That’s fairly obvious.

    And again, it’s not like the other sports.

    right, but you’re wrong. Rajon Rondo is wearing sunglasses in the warmup layup line today, and that team won a title and almost two. the Lakers are having player meetings about changing their coach’s offense and they won multiple titles. and we all know about Miami, and they came two games from winning a title in their first year together.

    so seriously, just stop. if the Knicks win games, the media and fans will be just fine, and in fact their collective expectations are way lower than in any of those other three situations.

  227. ruruland

    dogrufus: Dude, not to be a jerk, but that fact that you aren’t familiar with the stats is the only conceivable reason you could think this is anything but a franchise-killing disaster of a trade for IND. This season Amare has been one of the worst rotation players in the entire league, on both ends of the court. It’s not just that he doesn’t live up to a max contact, it’s that if he didn’t have that contract he might not be an NBA player right now.

    I think that’s a bit of an overstatement.

    Look, I used to post about Amar’e with Suns fans a long time ago.

    Even at his peak, this is a guy who’s production is pretty unique.

    How many guys in league history could post absolutely dominant offensive stats under such very defined conditions –perfect spacing and great point guard play on about two or three different kinds of plays.

    He really needs those special circumstances. With them, he’s a fantastic asset that others in his position have never been. Without them, he’s sum negative.

  228. jon abbey

    art vandelay:
    Just think a week ago some of us were calling for Grunwald to win Exec. of the Year!!! This rollercoaster ride keeps bouncing us back and forth…I have major whiplash!

    I do still think he’s done a good job, I’d like to see this team with a hard-ass coach like Collins or Skiles.

  229. ruruland

    jon abbey: right, but you’re wrong. Rajon Rondo is wearing sunglasses in the warmup layup line today, and that team won a title and almost two. the Lakers are having player meetings about changing their coach’s offense and they won multiple titles. and we all know about Miami, and they came two games from winning a title in their first year together.so seriously, just stop. if the Knicks win games, the media and fans will be just fine, and in fact their collective expectations are way lower than in any of those other three situations.

    The difference is stark however.

    In both of those situations you have coaches who know how to manage those situations — they’re great at it.

    More importantly, however, you have established hiearchies and roles.

    This is a team searching for those roles, without a coach that seems to know how to manage thes situations.

    With Rondo, you’ve got 3 sage vets, established, with rings. Of course the trade rumors arn’t going to affect Rondo nearly as much.

    In LA, you have arguably the greatest psychatrist/counselor/manager of personalities coach of all time, and playing under a structured offense with fitting pieces.

    That’s very different than the situation this team is in, basically from all angles.

  230. jon abbey

    ruruland:

    In LA, you have arguably the greatest psychatrist/counselor/manager of personalities coach of all time, and playing under a structured offense with fitting pieces.

    again, Rondo wore sunglasses in the layup line today, and by all reports, is a huge asshole in the locker room.

    and you know Mike Brown is the Lakers coach now, right, not the guy you’re describing? you need to take a deep breath once in a while and re-examine some of your positions, my man.

  231. ruruland

    jon abbey: I do still think he’s done a good job, I’d like to see this team with a hard-ass coach like Collins or Skiles.

    I think somehow ridding this team of Amar’e contract, finding a solid rebounding 4 who can defend and make an open mid-range shot, under the direction of a defense-oriented coach, would be ideal for this team.

    The things Lin is doing he can do with any coach, outside of the triangle. But, honestly you can’t run the triangle with Amar’e and CHandler as your passing bigs.

    Melo is an ideal traingle player.

  232. jon abbey

    ah, Rondo got poked in the eye before the last game, hence the sunglasses. that team is still way more dysfunctional than they should be given their core and their previous success.

  233. ruruland

    jon abbey: again, Rondo wore sunglasses in the layup line today, and by all reports, is a huge asshole in the locker room. and you know Mike Brown is the Lakers coach now, right, not the guy you’re describing? you need to take a deep breath once in a while and re-examine some of your positions, my man.

    I thought you were talking about the Lakers of years past. Because clearly the trade rumors and front office issues have hurt them this year. They’re an awful road team that’s lost to Washington and a couple other bad teams recently–really hard to do with gasol and bynum inside.

    AS for Boston, yeah Rondo is a douche, but you have established leadership there and a great personality manager.He’s also a pass first player, not a scorer like Lin. I don’t see how the situations are at all similar.

    The media isn’t picking two players out, or dividing groups of players, as MDA has played into the media’s trap before.

  234. ruruland

    jon abbey: ah, Rondo got poked in the eye before the last game, hence the sunglasses. that team is still way more dysfunctional than they should be given their core and their previous success.

    So the media does have an effect?

  235. JC Knickfan

    It would nice if MDA run some plays to help Novak get some open look, otherwise he defensive liability. Teams know not leave him now.

    How many time did Lin get his guy in the air not try to draw the foul? Learn to get to line when your shooting is off and it was off today.

    Knick probably will still squeeze out 8th seed due team below being just as bad, but my expectation of this being a good team is down the drain.

  236. art vandelay

    Dolan could probably raise prices another 100% and he would still largely sell out the Garden almost every night…They were atrocious as we all here know from 2002-2009 and they averaged 19,500….pacers are excellent this season and can’t draw fleas in the Conseco Fieldhouse….

    what changed during that ignominious decade is that the type of crowd changed…the history and location of MSG in mid-town manhattan will always draw large crowds whether the knicks suck or not….you just won’t see the same 90s-style crowds with celebs and die hards….I went to games during that terrible stretch and the garden was full of kids and tourists who didn’t have a clue what was going on on the court….totally different feel.

    so basically Dolan can (pitifully for us) keep this team in perpetuity and there is nothing we can do short of staging a coup (can this be done)?

    The location alone in mid-town will attract crowds of tourists who will pay big bucks to see a game…when the mets are terrible (I am a die hard fan…yes, I hate my sports life right now) as they are now, no one will go to games…same could be said of yankees in 80s when they were pretty bad and no one went to games…I can’t see any scenario in which knicks suck, however, and the
    Garden is empty…which is what we would need for Dolan to maybe wise up.

  237. jon abbey

    art vandelay:
    Dolan could probably raise prices another 100% and he would still largely sell out the Garden almost every night…They were atrocious as we all here know from 2002-2009 and they averaged 19,500….pacers are excellent this season and can’t draw fleas in the Conseco Fieldhouse….

    what changed during that ignominious decade is that the type of crowd changed…the history and location of MSG in mid-town manhattan will always draw large crowds whether the knicks suck or not….you just won’t see the same 90s-style crowds with celebs and die hards….I went to games during that terrible stretch and the garden was full of kids and tourists who didn’t have a clue what was going on on the court….totally different feel.

    so basically Dolan can (pitifully for us) keep this team in perpetuity and there is nothing we can do short of staging a coup (can this be done)?

    The location alone in mid-town will attract crowds of tourists who will pay big bucks to see a game…when the mets are terrible (I am a die hard fan…yes, I hate my sports life right now) as they are now, no one will go to games…same could be said of yankees in 80s when they were pretty bad and no one went to games…I can’t see any scenario in which knicks suck, however, and the
    Garden is empty…which is what we would need for Dolan to maybe wise up.

    I think a serious organized fan boycott might (and I emphasize MIGHT) start the ball rolling, but it’s going to be a million times harder post-Lin.

  238. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    ruruland: I thought you were talking about the Lakers of years past. Because clearly the trade rumors and front office issues have hurt them this year. They’re an awful road team that’s lost to Washington and a couple other bad teams recently–really hard to do with gasol and bynum inside.

    I’d guess that Phil Jackson’s absence has hurt them much more than trade rumors have. Some players do have fragile psyches, but Phil Jackson is a much better coach than Mike Brown.

  239. jon abbey

    we’re going to look back at D’Antoni’s reluctance to foul at the end of regulation in Boston as a crucial turning point of this season, unfortunately. we needed that one.

  240. thyrdrail

    because no matter how much new yawkers get pissed off by the knicks and no matter how much they bitch and moan about them, deep down inside they love their knicks and they are loyal to them. that’s a TRUE NEW YAWKER!! GO NEW YAWK!! GO KNICKS!!! :)

    art vandelay:
    Dolan could probably raise prices another 100% and he would still largely sell out the Garden almost every night…They were atrocious as we all here know from 2002-2009 and they averaged 19,500….pacers are excellent this season and can’t draw fleas in the Conseco Fieldhouse….

    what changed during that ignominious decade is that the type of crowd changed…the history and location of MSG in mid-town manhattan will always draw large crowds whether the knicks suck or not….you just won’t see the same 90s-style crowds with celebs and die hards….I went to games during that terrible stretch and the garden was full of kids and tourists who didn’t have a clue what was going on on the court….totally different feel.

    so basically Dolan can (pitifully for us) keep this team in perpetuity and there is nothing we can do short of staging a coup (can this be done)?

    The location alone in mid-town will attract crowds of tourists who will pay big bucks to see a game…when the mets are terrible (I am a die hard fan…yes, I hate my sports life right now) as they are now, no one will go to games…same could be said of yankees in 80s when they were pretty bad and no one went to games…I can’t see any scenario in which knicks suck, however, and the
    Garden is empty…which is what we would need for Dolan to maybe wise up.

  241. The Infamous Cdiggy

    ruruland: I think that’s a bit of an overstatement.

    Look, I used to post about Amar’e with Suns fans a long time ago.

    Even at his peak, this is a guy who’s production is pretty unique.

    How many guys in league history could post absolutely dominant offensive stats under such very defined conditions –perfect spacing and great point guard play on about two or three different kinds of plays.

    He really needs those special circumstances. With them, he’s a fantastic asset that others in his position have never been. Without them, he’s sum negative.

    i appreciate the feedback ruruland.
    dogrufus: Amar’e has been offensively subpar – THIS year. In his best years where he was an offensive force (including first half last year), his D was bad – though I’d like anyone here who watched Amare in Phoenix consistently answer whether his D was ever THIS bad?

    I admit you’d have to sell Indiana on Amare bouncing back, but I mean, did I miss where Danny Granger and David West were perennial All-Stars/1st Team anything? Amare will have a young big in Hibbert to play off of.

  242. Doug

    If the Garden wasn’t empty during the worst days of Isiah, it will never be empty until the end of time itself.

  243. art vandelay

    Part of Lin’s problems with predictability stem from his going to the well one to many times on certain plays, which is playing into teams’ scouting reports of him…for instance, whenever Novak is in the game I notice he does everything he can to get Novak a 3 pointer….completely looking straight at him while he is running off a screen…he basically telegraphs that that is where he wants to go with the ball….and once the passing angle has been cut off or Novak can’t break free….basically there are under 8 seconds on shot clock and Lin has no idea what to do on the possession.

    In other words, this is just one example of how he is forcing the issue to try to make a specific play work that has been successful in the past…he needs to be a bit more creative and dynamic as the floor distributor….of course this should come with more time and experience (he is but a rookie, essentially). But I see him looking for one play at all costs and not adjusting to the defense and going with Plan B or C if his pre-determined play is forestalled.

  244. limpidgimp

    ruruland:
    The problems absolutely start from the top and are on the court. My point is that it’s more difficult to get through this kind of deal in this market than others — you have to deal with things other organizations don’t when you’re losing. That’s fairly obvious.

    NY Media organs like the New York Post and the like have been weaving these bullshit stories like ‘Can Melo play with Lin?’ and the recent one depicting Smith as very frustrated about deferring to Melo’s ISOs. An ounce of truth in these, perhaps, but they get peddled for several pounds. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Knicks players are subjected to more interviews than other teams (certainly Dolan has not shielded Lin from the hype but promoted it), and once there are more public comments on record, there’s just more material to take out of context and weave a story that is at best distracting and at worst divisive. Even if players don’t read these, what dogrufus calls ‘nerd’ boards, these boards are not a sealed bubble: journalists certainly follow some of it and it gets filtered down to players via interview questions. And there’s probably considerable continuity between online sentiments and fan behavior at the Garden — you can literally hear that noise at home court. Lastly, fans goad other fans to extremes. E.g., I’ve seen Melo blamed for everything under the sun, and if I hadn’t watched the game(s) myself, I would have believed all of it as truth.

    Again, this is not to deflect responsibility from the players, or to say that a cuddly fanbase would made the Knicks record better, but to say that the team doesn’t play in a bubble. To say that all this mental gangbanging shouldn’t affect them at all is really just stating a principle instead of describing reality.

  245. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: I’d guess that Phil Jackson’s absence has hurt them much more than trade rumors have. Some players do have fragile psyches, but Phil Jackson is a much better coach than Mike Brown.

    I’d agree. It’s derivative of my argument.

    I don’t think fragile is the right word. Most on this board would likely crumble under the kind pressure some of these guys are under.

    Public pro athletes build a lot of mental strength over their careers, and even then, there are situations that can be too much.

  246. ruruland

    The Infamous Cdiggy: i appreciate the feedback ruruland.dogrufus: Amar’e has been offensively subpar – THIS year. In his best years where he was an offensive force (including first half last year), his D was bad – though I’d like anyone here who watched Amare in Phoenix consistently answer whether his D was ever THIS bad? I admit you’d have to sell Indiana on Amare bouncing back, but I mean, did I miss where Danny Granger and David West were perennial All-Stars/1st Team anything? Amare will have a young big in Hibbert to play off of.

    Yes. I live in Tempe.

    His defense has always been atrocious. Always the top target in pnr.

    Many, many fans have had the same complaints, questions and criticisms going back almost a decde now. “He’s such a good athlete, he just has to learn how to…..” You get the deal. That;s been going on forever.

  247. 2010

    Stat’s risky contract is looking worse every day. I thought the first 3 years would be low risk and years 4+5 would be a crap shoot. Now its looking like years 2-5 are a huge mistake.

  248. A Voice of Reason

    I think ruru was referring to 302 when he mentioned the Zen Master…

    jon abbey: I do still think he’s done a good job, I’d like to see this team with a hard-ass coach like Collins or Skiles.

    I absolutely agree with this. Our coach is a real problem. Maybe he’s a good coach, but he is a system coach, not a basketball coach. He has shown no ability to adjust, or evolve his philosophy to fit our team. As I said yesterday, if Melo is considered selfish, the coach should be considered just as selfish, if not more so. Players on good teams typically take on the personality of the coach. If he can’t sacrifice his system for the players, why should any player sacrifice their game for him?

  249. ruruland

    limpidgimp: NY Media organs like the New York Post and the like have been weaving these bullshit stories like ‘Can Melo play with Lin?’ and the recent one depicting Smith as very frustrated about deferring to Melo’s ISOs. An ounce of truth in these, perhaps, but they get peddled for several pounds. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Knicks players are subjected to more interviews than other teams (certainly Dolan has not shielded Lin from the hype but promoted it), and once there are more public comments on record, there’s just more material to take out of context and weave a story that is at best distracting and at worst divisive. Even if players don’t read these, what dogrufus calls ‘nerd’ boards, these boards are not a sealed bubble: journalists certainly follow some of it and it gets filtered down to players via interview questions. And there’s probably considerable continuity between online sentiments and fan behavior at the Garden — you can literally hear that noise at home court. Lastly, fans goad other fans to extremes. E.g., I’ve seen Melo blamed for everything under the sun, and if I hadn’t watched the game(s) myself, I would have believed all of it as truth. Again, this is not to deflect responsibility from the players, or to say that a cuddly fanbase would made the Knicks record better, but to say that the team doesn’t play in a bubble. To say that all this mental gangbanging shouldn’t affect them at all is really just stating a principle instead of describing reality.

    Fantastic post.

  250. jon abbey

    art vandelay:
    Part of Lin’s problems with predictability stem from his going to the well one to many times on certain plays, which is playing into teams’ scouting reports of him…for instance, whenever Novak is in the game I notice he does everything he can to get Novak a 3 pointer….completely looking straight at him while he is running off a screen…he basically telegraphs that that is where he wants to go with the ball….and once the passing angle has been cut off or Novak can’t break free….basically there are under 8 seconds on shot clock and Lin has no idea what to do on the possession.

    In other words, this is just one example of how he is forcing the issue to try to make a specific play work that has been successful in the past…he needs to be a bit more creative and dynamic as the floor distributor….of course this should come with more time and experience (he is but a rookie, essentially). But I see him looking for one play at all costs and not adjusting to the defense and going with Plan B or C if his pre-determined play is forestalled.

    also he walks it up on almost every possession, it’s a big difference if you get over halfcourt in 3 seconds or 8 seconds. whatever happened to SSOL?

  251. ruruland

    A Voice of Reason: I think ruru was referring to 302 when he mentioned the Zen Master…I absolutely agree with this. Our coach is a real problem. Maybe he’s a good coach, but he is a system coach, not a basketball coach. He has shown no ability to adjust, or evolve his philosophy to fit our team. As I said yesterday, if Melo is considered selfish, the coach should be considered just as selfish, if not more so. Players on good teams typically take on the personality of the coach. If he can’t sacrifice his system for the players, why should any player sacrifice their game for him?

    I’m not sure where the selfish ting comes into play.

    He’s doing what wings are supposed to do in this offense. This is a pg-centric offense.

    People talk about Marion, but that’s a guy who scored bundles of points off Nash and running. His efficiency was garbage post-Nash. Same with Joe Johnson and a lot of other guys.

    I’m not sure why you’d trade for a guy who’s established himself, not just as premier scorer, but as guy who tilts defenses and creates easy looks for teammates on a consistent basis, if you’re only going to ask him to do play off the ball in this offense.

  252. ruruland

    jon abbey: also he walks it up on almost every possession, it’s a big difference if you get over halfcourt in 3 seconds or 8 seconds. whatever happened to SSOL?

    Lin once again missed quite a few open guys once his drive had started. It’s turning into a big problem when he’s the guy with the ball 70 percent of the time.

  253. jon abbey

    ruruland:
    I’m not sure why you’d trade for a guy who’s established himself, not just as premier scorer, but as guy who tilts defenses and creates easy looks for teammates on a consistent basis, if you’re only going to ask him to do play off the ball in this offense.

    Dolan did it to sell tickets.

  254. nicos

    ruruland: I think that’s a bit of an overstatement.

    He really needs those special circumstances. With them, he’s a fantastic asset that others in his position have never been. Without them, he’s sum negative.

    He really wasn’t a sum negative last year- a .565 TS% on 30% usage with below average turnovers may not be worth 20 million but it’s worth something- Melo’s only had one year with a better TS%. Put him on any team that can spread the floor and he can still score the ball. Would I still trade him? In a heartbeat.

  255. xduckshoex

    ruruland: I think that’s a bit of an overstatement.

    Look, I used to post about Amar’e with Suns fans a long time ago.

    Even at his peak, this is a guy who’s production is pretty unique.

    How many guys in league history could post absolutely dominant offensive stats under such very defined conditions –perfect spacing and great point guard play on about two or three different kinds of plays.

    He really needs those special circumstances. With them, he’s a fantastic asset that others in his position have never been. Without them, he’s sum negative.

    …except for last year, when he was very productive without great point guard play, and the year before Nash arrived in Phoenix, when he was great without great point guard play(scoring 24+ running with Howard Eisley)

    Amare isn’t struggling because he’s not in some kind of bubble that he needs to be in to play effective basketball, he’s struggling because his shot isn’t falling even when he’s wide open and because his first step no longer gets him past his defender. It doesn’t matter what point guard you play him with, as long as that continues you’re going to struggle.

    You get way to hung up on these “circumstances” that you feel a player needs to be successful. How about that Deron Williams? Still think he can only be effective in a flex offense now that he’s posting the highest scoring numbers and PER of his career?

  256. ruruland

    art vandelay: Part of Lin’s problems with predictability stem from his going to the well one to many times on certain plays, which is playing into teams’ scouting reports of him…for instance, whenever Novak is in the game I notice he does everything he can to get Novak a 3 pointer….completely looking straight at him while he is running off a screen…he basically telegraphs that that is where he wants to go with the ball….and once the passing angle has been cut off or Novak can’t break free….basically there are under 8 seconds on shot clock and Lin has no idea what to do on the possession.In other words, this is just one example of how he is forcing the issue to try to make a specific play work that has been successful in the past…he needs to be a bit more creative and dynamic as the floor distributor….of course this should come with more time and experience (he is but a rookie, essentially). But I see him looking for one play at all costs and not adjusting to the defense and going with Plan B or C if his pre-determined play is forestalled.

    great post.. I have a lot of hope for Lin. But, to me, when he’s attacking seams as opposed to trying to run pnr every time he’s quite effective.

    We’ve seen him slash quite well when playing on the weakside with Melo creating the tilt.

  257. jon abbey

    ruruland: Lin once again missed quite a few open guys once his drive had started. It’s turning into a big problem when he’s the guy with the ball 70 percent of the time.

    he’s not a NBA starter, it’s becoming increasingly clear, at least right now. he would be even more overmatched in the playoffs by most teams than Fields was against Boston last year.

  258. Thomas B.

    Amare’s basketball abilities have been in steady decline since he discovered he has Jewish ancestry. Coincidence?

    I think it is commonly accepted that the Cavs are really bad. Now when the Knicks are less the 2 games ahead of the Cavs, what does that say about the Knicks? I’m not so sure this team can hold on to the 8th spot.

    Well that could be a good thing. Maybe the Rockets can package that pick in a deal to Orlando to get Howard by the trade dealine. If they resign him in the summer, he wont end up kicking our butts 4 times a year as a Net. So, maybe the Donnie Walsh’s 2009 draft, and later trade with Houston is actually a good thing. Right? Right?

  259. ruruland

    xduckshoex: …except for last year, when he was very productive without great point guard play, and the year before Nash arrived in Phoenix, when he was great without great point guard play(scoring 24+ running with Howard Eisley)Amare isn’t struggling because he’s not in some kind of bubble that he needs to be in to play effective basketball, he’s struggling because his shot isn’t falling even when he’s wide open and because his first step no longer gets him past his defender. It doesn’t matter what point guard you play him with, as long as that continues you’re going to struggle.You get way to hung up on these “circumstances” that you feel a player needs to be successful. How about that Deron Williams? Still think he can only be effective in a flex offense now that he’s posting the highest scoring numbers and PER of his career?

    Yeah, but really, if we look at all but one of his games with his career in NJ — a team that, btw, doesn’t get the same effort others teams get from other opponents– his numbers and efficiency are down quite a bit.

    He’s an excellent player, but not the same out of the flex. The Net’s have been decent on offense with him out of the lineup– the talent issues are a little overplayed.

    Anyway, I think both things are playing a part. His overall efficiency with Shaq/Chandler or without Nash is quite a bit lower. Clearly his shot and the missing explosion is part of the huge drop this year.

  260. max fisher-cohen

    Melo should still be at least as valuable as he was last year. Yes, last year he didn’t struggle as he has this year, but last year he was also on an expiring contract and had promised most of hte league that he wouldn’t re-sign with them. Sure, he has struggled this year, but due to the fact that he’s still young and hasn’t had any health red flags, it’s much easier to create a narrative that his struggles are a result of the fact that he fits so poorly with the rest of the roster.

  261. A Voice of Reason

    ruruland: I’m not sure where the selfish ting comes into play.

    He’s doing what wings are supposed to do in this offense. This is a pg-centric offense.

    People talk about Marion, but that’s a guy who scored bundles of points off Nash and running. His efficiency was garbage post-Nash. Same with Joe Johnson and a lot of other guys.

    I’m not sure why you’d trade for a guy who’s established himself, not just as premier scorer, but as guy who tilts defenses and creates easy looks for teammates on a consistent basis, if you’re only going to ask him to do play off the ball in this offense.

    Exactly. I don’t think Melo is selfish at all. He was brought here to shoot, and to score. You cannot score if you do not shoot. Fans are insatiable, however, so they want to dictate where he shoots, what type of shots, how often, how early in the clock, how late in the game, etc. What they don’t realize is that the coach (who I now refuse to address by name) asks Melo to shoot when he feels comfortable. Anyone who is a good shooter on this board knows that there are many times where your shot is a good one, especially if you were being paid $20M to shoot it. Goodness, I understand the need for a scapegoat, and the subsequent apologist remarks for his defenders, but Melo is NOT the problem with this team. The Nuggets were two inbound passes away from beating the Magic in the finals, and it was MELO who took them, along with good guard play and good interior defense/toughness. if this team gets in the playoffs, does anyone actually think we would win a series without Melo?? Seriously ruru, game threads are for reading only!

  262. ruruland

    jon abbey: he’s not a NBA starter, it’s becoming increasingly clear, at least right now. he would be even more overmatched in the playoffs by most teams than Fields was against Boston last year.

    I’m starting to get convinced of that, as well. Handle, vision, passing instincts and lateral movement just aren’t good quite enough against the pressure man defense.

  263. JC Knickfan

    art vandelay:
    Part of Lin’s problems with predictability stem from his going to the well one to many times on certain plays, which is playing into teams’ scouting reports of him…for instance, whenever Novak is in the game I notice he does everything he can to get Novak a 3 pointer….completely looking straight at him while he is running off a screen…he basically telegraphs that that is where he wants to go with the ball….and once the passing angle has been cut off or Novak can’t break free….basically there are under 8 seconds on shot clock and Lin has no idea what to do on the possession.

    In other words, this is just one example of how he is forcing the issue to try to make a specific play work that has been successful in the past…he needs to be a bit more creative and dynamic as the floor distributor….of course this should come with more time and experience (he is but a rookie, essentially). But I see him looking for one play at all costs and not adjusting to the defense and going with Plan B or C if his pre-determined play is forestalled.

    When he try penetrate to basket he just not aware where all his teammates are. It’s a hard skill to develop on when to move option b or c. These are split second decision which will take time to develop.

  264. ruruland

    A Voice of Reason: Exactly. I don’t think Melo is selfish at all. He was brought here to shoot, and to score. You cannot score if you do not shoot. Fans are insatiable, however, so they want to dictate where he shoots, what type of shots, how often, how early in the clock, how late in the game, etc. What they don’t realize is that the coach (who I now refuse to address by name) asks Melo to shoot when he feels comfortable. Anyone who is a good shooter on this board knows that there are many times where your shot is a good one, especially if you were being paid $20M to shoot it. Goodness, I understand the need for a scapegoat, and the subsequent apologist remarks for his defenders, but Melo is NOT the problem with this team. The Nuggets were two inbound passes away from beating the Magic in the finals, and it was MELO who took them, along with good guard play and good interior defense/toughness. if this team gets in the playoffs, does anyone actually think we would win a series without Melo?? Seriously ruru, game threads are for reading only!

    Yeah, haha. I hear you.

  265. The Infamous Cdiggy

    jon abbey: he’s not a NBA starter, it’s becoming increasingly clear, at least right now. he would be even more overmatched in the playoffs by most teams than Fields was against Boston last year.

    If you mean “an NBA starter” in general, then I 100% disagree. He’s learning on the fly, in a short season, at a position most feel is the hardest to be a rookie at. Let’s give him a whole summer and offseason to correct his problems. If he’s committing the exact same problems this time next season, then maybe I could see your point a bit.

  266. ruruland

    JC Knickfan: When he try penetrate to basket he just not aware where all his teammates are. It’s a hard skill to develop on when to move option b or c. These are split second decision which will take time to develop.

    No guarantee he can develop them.

    Sports science did a piece on how it’s a really an eye-hand talent that few guys posses.

    Some guys just don’t have it, just as some guys can’t get into the lane as much as Lin does.

    There might be a reason he came up as a two guard.

  267. ephus

    Thomas B.:

    I think it is commonly accepted that the Cavs are really bad.Now when the Knicks are less the 2 games ahead of the Cavs, what does that say about the Knicks?I’m not so sure this team can hold on to the 8th spot.

    Well that could be a good thing.

    There is only one way that is a good thing, and it is a longshot. Remember that the Knicks pick is top 5 protected. So if the Knicks crash and burn out of the playoffs, there would be a tiny chance that they could actually hold the pick and get a top 5 player.

  268. jon abbey

    The Infamous Cdiggy: If you mean “an NBA starter” in general, then I 100% disagree.He’s learning on the fly, in a short season, at a position most feel is the hardest to be a rookie at.Let’s give him a whole summer and offseason to correct his problems.If he’s committing the exact same problems this time next season, then maybe I could see your point a bit.

    I said “at least right now”.

    and sadly that thought about a top 5 pick occurred to me a few days ago too.

  269. ruruland

    ephus: There is only one way that is a good thing, and it is a longshot. Remember that the Knicks pick is top 5 protected. So if the Knicks crash and burn out of the playoffs, there would be a tiny chance that they could actually hold the pick and get a top 5 player.

    The Cavs, btw beat Denver and OKC on the road in the last week — a team the Knicks blew out of course.

    Have a really hard time seeing the Knicks missing the playoffs.

  270. thyrdrail

    that’s why 3 people tried out as pg for knicks and all failed. lin has been the most successful of them all. even guys who have eye-hand talent still need on-the-job training to develop skills and experience.

    i’d like to know how the current elite point guards started out in their rookie years. everyone’s always comparing lin to elite point guards who’ve been playing in the nba for years. it’s more accurate to compare his performance when they were all rookies.

    ruruland: No guarantee he can develop them.

    Sports science did a piece on how it’s a really an eye-hand talent that few guys posses.

    Some guys just don’t have it, just as some guys can’t get into the lane as much as Lin does.

    There might be a reason he came up as a two guard.

  271. A Voice of Reason

    thyrdrail:
    that’s why 3 people tried out as pg for knicks and all failed. lin has been the most successful of them all. even guys who have eye-hand talent still need on-the-job training to develop skills and experience.

    i’d like to know how the current elite point guards started out in their rookie years. everyone’s always comparing lin to elite point guards who’ve been playing in the nba for years. it’s more accurate to compare his performance when they were all rookies.

    Valid thought here..

  272. Doug

    limpidgimp: Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Knicks players are subjected to more interviews than other teams (certainly Dolan has not shielded Lin from the hype but promoted it), and once there are more public comments on record, there’s just more material to take out of context and weave a story that is at best distracting and at worst divisive.

    Great points. My theory is that Dolan brings it on the team himself with his antagonistic relationship with the NY media. He pisses off reporters by cutting off access to the front office, which makes them all the more inclined to rip the team. One of the reasons Donnie Walsh was fired was that Dolan despised his openness and candor with the media. Dolan’s skin is like paper thin and he can’t take any heated criticism, so he shuts reporters out of the Knicks organization. It’s the height of stupidity to give them an axe to grind, but it’s what he does and this is where we are.

  273. thyrdrail

    Thomas B.:
    Amare’s basketball abilities have been in steady decline since he discovered he has Jewish ancestry. Coincidence?

    is amare jewish? gee i hope he doesnt start wearing a yamulke cuz that would REALLY weigh him down and affect his problematic lift!!

  274. The Infamous Cdiggy

    thyrdrail:
    that’s why 3 people tried out as pg for knicks and all failed. lin has been the most successful of them all. even guys who have eye-hand talent still need on-the-job training to develop skills and experience.

    i’d like to know how the current elite point guards started out in their rookie years. everyone’s always comparing lin to elite point guards who’ve been playing in the nba for years. it’s more accurate to compare his performance when they were all rookies.

    That’s what I’m saying exactly. He’s basically a rookie – makes more sense to compare him to say Kyrie Irving, whom he played to a draw basically in that last Cavs game.

    Lin is a starting PG in this league, as a rookie… think about that. Like I told Mr. Abbey, if he’s having the same struggles in 12 months, I’ll reconsider my opinion.

  275. xduckshoex

    Lin is certainly not Chris Paul but to say that he’s not an NBA starter at this point in time is kind of ridiculous. The sample size we have should be big enough to say what we know he does well and what we know he struggles with.

    Pros:

    Can finish through contact
    Unfazed in crunch time
    Good mid-range shot off the dribble
    Decent spot up three point shooter
    Gives 100% on defense
    Keeps dribble alive most of the time
    Has a tendency to make up for mistakes, for example he tends to steal the ball back after his turnovers or follow up a costly turnover with a huge shot
    Extremely hard worker

    Cons:

    Dribbles too far away from his body which makes it easier to poke the ball away
    Telegraphs passes
    Often gets caught in traffic with no idea what he is going to do there
    Goes right 110% of the time

    I think most of those cons are things that can be taken care of in an offseason(developing some moves going to the left, tightening up that dribble) or improved with experience. For a guy who is a de facto rookie I think that’s actually really good.

  276. thyrdrail

    The Infamous Cdiggy: That’s what I’m saying exactly. He’s basically a rookie – makes more sense to compare him to say Kyrie Irving, whom he played to a draw basically in that last Cavs game.

    Lin is a starting PG in this league, as a rookie… think about that.Like I told Mr. Abbey, if he’s having the same struggles in 12 months, I’ll reconsider my opinion.

    The Infamous Cdiggy: That’s what I’m saying exactly. He’s basically a rookie – makes more sense to compare him to say Kyrie Irving, whom he played to a draw basically in that last Cavs game.

    Lin is a starting PG in this league, as a rookie… think about that.Like I told Mr. Abbey, if he’s having the same struggles in 12 months, I’ll reconsider my opinion.

    i think d’antoni should play lin as backup bench for 2nd half and let baron start. not to punish lin – because he can definitely start and in some games he played awesome – but just to get all his cynical critics and haters and jaded sports writers just writing anything to create drama get off his back. lin tends to play well in 2nd half anyway. then we’ll see how baron does as a starter and let him get all the hypercriticisms that lin is getting. then if baron doesnt play well then everyone will be begging for lin to start again and we can all tell them to JUST SHUT UP AND LET THE KID PLAY!!! but nah, doubt that will happen cuz it will just keep going in circles cuz that’s how the world goes just round n round…

  277. ruruland

    xduckshoex: Lin is certainly not Chris Paul but to say that he’s not an NBA starter at this point in time is kind of ridiculous. The sample size we have should be big enough to say what we know he does well and what we know he struggles with.Pros:Can finish through contactUnfazed in crunch timeGood mid-range shot off the dribbleDecent spot up three point shooterGives 100% on defenseKeeps dribble alive most of the timeHas a tendency to make up for mistakes, for example he tends to steal the ball back after his turnovers or follow up a costly turnover with a huge shotExtremely hard workerCons:Dribbles too far away from his body which makes it easier to poke the ball awayTelegraphs passesOften gets caught in traffic with no idea what he is going to do thereGoes right 110% of the timeI think most of those cons are things that can be taken care of in an offseason(developing some moves going to the left, tightening up that dribble) or improved with experience. For a guy who is a de facto rookie I think that’s actually really good.

    Pretty generous on the defense.

    Look up going under screens and not trying to recover back to the shooter and consistently getting beat off the dribble.

    I agree with a lot but that’s incredibly selective scouting report. His defense, while perhaps slowly improving, is arguably the biggest issue in this slump.

  278. d-mar

    Thomas B.:
    Amare’s basketball abilities have been in steady decline since he discovered he has Jewish ancestry. Coincidence?

    I think it is commonly accepted that the Cavs are really bad.Now when the Knicks are less the 2 games ahead of the Cavs, what does that say about the Knicks?I’m not so sure this team can hold on to the 8th spot.

    Well that could be a good thing.Maybe the Rockets can package that pick in a deal to Orlando to get Howard by the trade dealine. If they resign him in the summer, he wont end up kicking our butts 4 times a year as a Net.So, maybe the Donnie Walsh’s 2009 draft, and later trade with Houston is actually a good thing. Right? Right?

    In a week of depressing posts, I think this one just vaulted to #1 on the pop charts.

  279. ruruland

    thyrdrail: i think d’antoni should play lin as backup bench for 2nd half and let baron start. not to punish lin – because he can definitely start and in some games he played awesome – but just to get all his cynical critics and haters and jaded sports writers just writing anything to create drama get off his back. lin tends to play well in 2nd half anyway. then we’ll see how baron does as a starter and let him get all the hypercriticisms that lin is getting. then if baron doesnt play well then everyone will be begging for lin to start again and we can all tell them to JUST SHUT UP AND LET THE KID PLAY!!! but nah, doubt that will happen cuz it will just keep going in circles cuz that’s how the world goes just round n round…

    Yes, because people are on Lin’s back lmao.

  280. thyrdrail

    i’d like to know what are the weaknesses of other elite point guards. are there any glaring weaknesses – like are there others who only go right or left or dribble only with right hand or left hand or shoot with right or left, dribble too high or far from body, etc?

  281. JC Knickfan

    ruruland: No guarantee he can develop them.

    Sports science did a piece on how it’s a really an eye-hand talent that few guys posses.

    Some guys just don’t have it, just as some guys can’t get into the lane as much as Lin does.

    There might be a reason he came up as a two guard.

    Well he play Havard as combo guard and lead team in assists and points both in his junior/senior. Plus lead team in rebound his junior year. I believe they started 3 guards so really can’t compare this normal division 1 powerhouse. Unfortunately, he has scorer mentality due role in college.

  282. thyrdrail

    what do you mean – why is that unfortunate?

    JC Knickfan: Well he play Havard as combo guard and lead team in assists and points both in his junior/senior. Plus lead team in rebound his junior year. I believe they started 3 guards so really can’t compare this normal division 1 powerhouse. Unfortunately, he has scorer mentality due role in college.

  283. xduckshoex

    ruruland: Pretty generous on the defense.

    Look up going under screens and not trying to recover back to the shooter and consistently getting beat off the dribble.

    I agree with a lot but that’s incredibly selective scouting report. His defense, while perhaps slowly improving, is arguably the biggest issue in this slump.

    Every point guard in the NBA gets beat off the dribble consistently, that’s why help defense is more valuable than ever. If Lin gets beat and Amare doesn’t step up to challenge the drive that’s not Lin’s fault at all, he did exactly what he should have done by steering the driving player to where his help should be.

    I agree that he gets lost on screens and doesn’t recover, but he’s a rookie. As long as he’s trying on defense(which is really the only thing I said about his defense in the first place) everything else should fall into place as he plays more.

  284. thyrdrail

    JC Knickfan: Unfortunately, he has scorer mentality due role in college.

    why is that unfortunate? lin can score and has scored big against some teams. some point guards on other teams cant even score at all.

  285. xduckshoex

    thyrdrail:
    i’d like to know what are the weaknesses of other elite point guards. are there any glaring weaknesses – like are there others who only go right or left or dribble only with right hand or left hand or shoot with right or left, dribble too high or far from body, etc?

    Most elite point guards tend to be pretty well-rounded. Actually, that’s probably true of all positions.

    Rondo is the only one I can think of that has a glaring weakness.

  286. joe

    to me its not mda…………….mike is a great coach he has had success in phoenix with less talent…..(nash and amare) and on top of that they have mike woodson who has nice success in atlanta…………..my point is as men the knicks should not accpet going out there every night and getting beat down like that at all there has to be a sense of pride in every player that im just not seeing……………..im not a nba player by anymeans but when i was in highschool my coach always said “BE MEN PLAY LIKE MEN AND HAVE PRIDE LIKE MEN” and its not there in ny right now……………..on defense just about everyone stands around and on offense they do as well……….even on isos with melo no one moves with out the ball and because of that it makes it even harder on melo to pass and he feels he has to take it on himself………….STAT idk whats good with him its like he has no will to play anymore………….lin i will give him a pass 15 games as a consistent rotation player…………its gonna take time.but as i said before its all about pride if they dont have it the season is a loss………………

  287. ruruland

    xduckshoex: Every point guard in the NBA gets beat off the dribble consistently, that’s why help defense is more valuable than ever. If Lin gets beat and Amare doesn’t step up to challenge the drive that’s not Lin’s fault at all, he did exactly what he should have done by steering the driving player to where his help should be.I agree that he gets lost on screens and doesn’t recover, but he’s a rookie. As long as he’s trying on defense(which is really the only thing I said about his defense in the first place) everything else should fall into place as he plays more.

    talk about overstatement. No, not all guards “always allow” penetration. That’s just silly.

    If that were true, then Lin’s ability to get into the lane would mean nothing.

  288. xduckshoex

    @ 372 – Why did you put quotes around “always allow” like it was something I said?

    Regardless, getting beat of the dribble consistently happens to most point guards. That’s why almost every great defensive team of late has consisted of great help defenders in the front court and supporting players who know how to rotate. Let’s face it, nobody is going to consistently stay in front of Brandon Jennings, Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Rajon Rondo, Tony Parker, John Wall, etc. The rule changes and the ridiculous speed and handles the modern point guard possesses put the defense at a huge disadvantage that no individual player is able to overcome. It doesn’t matter what you do, as long as you are in a reactive position dealing with that level of quickness you are going to lose the one on one battle far more often than not.

    And Lin’s ability to get in the lane is significant because nobody on the team was able to do it before he broke out, not because he does it better than most other point guards in the NBA.

  289. JC Knickfan

    thyrdrail: why is that unfortunate? lin can score and has scored big against some teams. some point guards on other teams cant even score at all.

    Let me re-phase that – being primary scorer on his team college he lack experience playing tradition pg. Bring ball half court seem to choir for him which I think he just had very little practice. Harvard forward where max 6’7 so not even use to throwing ball to post player. I’ve notice he his entry pass does not put post player in ideal position score.

    In the height linsanty, I’m definitely not seeing Steve Nash, but Elite scoring PG. Even now still feel he in top 10-15 as scorer for PG. He seem average passing PG and below average ball handler.

  290. JLam

    Im off this roller coaster ride.
    Good luck you die hard knickers fans.
    Let me know when some drastic measures shakes up the team.

  291. Juany8

    xduckshoex:
    @ 372– Why did you put quotes around “always allow” like it was something I said?

    Regardless, getting beat of the dribble consistently happens to most point guards.That’s why almost every great defensive team of late has consisted of great help defenders in the front court and supporting players who know how to rotate.Let’s face it, nobody is going to consistently stay in front of Brandon Jennings, Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Rajon Rondo, Tony Parker, John Wall, etc.The rule changes and the ridiculous speed and handles the modern point guard possesses put the defense at a huge disadvantage that no individual player is able to overcome.It doesn’t matter what you do, as long as you are in a reactive position dealing with that level of quickness you are going to lose the one on one battle far more often than not.

    And Lin’s ability to get in the lane is significant because nobody on the team was able to do it before he broke out, not because he does it better than most other point guards in the NBA.

    People can’t consistently stay in front of Derrick Rose, now, but Lin can’t stay in front of anybody. He’s a fucking pathetic defender. Pathetic. So is Landry, which maybe says something about why they got drafted where they are. Unless they are game changers offensively, giving that much dribble penetration is always a net negative. Which means Landry Fields has yet to have a good game this YEAR. Any guard in the league can run a pick and roll with any PF against this team and they will compromise the Knicks defense severely. Our only 2 starters that are plus defenders are Chandler and Melo (yes he is actually a pretty solid defender, surprise!) Lin and Landry simply can’t play together, not if Stoudemire is going to continue to be among the league’s worst defenders.

  292. xduckshoex

    @ 376 – But again, the point is that Lin doesn’t give up more dribble penetration than any other point guard. And saying that he can’t stay in front of anyone is a gross overstatement, he did a great job on Jennings in that fourth quarter against the Bucks but Jennings hit some tough shots. Whose one on one defense forced that terrible shot by Jennings late in the game, which was a wasted effort as Amare and Melo both failed to secure the defensive rebound? That was Lin, blanketing one of the more elusive point guards in the league.

    As for pick and roll defense, that starts with the big man. Garnett is one of the best. So is Varejao. Gibson and Noah are both great at it. Duncan was excellent. Big Ben and Sheed were both great at it. That covers every defensive team that I could consider great since the rule changes made it that much harder to stay in front a perimeter player. What do you think would happen to those teams if you had Stoudemire instead of the defenders listed? Their pick and roll defense would be terrible, and it would have nothing to do with their point guards.

  293. flossy

    It’s been several games back with Melo now and Lin is averaging 8.7 assists per 36 with a 45 AST%. Yes, he still misses some passes and penetrates too far but the idea that he has terrible court vision or isn’t a PG seem way off base to me.

    The one, overriding problem with this team is blatantly obvious. Way, way too many minutes and dollars are being given to a pair of one-dimensional players whose one dimension not only overlaps, but is actually not being performed at the elite level for which they are being paid. That is the problem. Period.

  294. flossy

    Juany8: Our only 2 starters that are plus defenders are Chandler and Melo (yes he is actually a pretty solid defender, surprise!)

    LOL! You can’t expect anyone to take an argument seriously if you actually say things like “Melo is a plus defender.” We all watch these games too, you know.

  295. thyrdrail

    JC Knickfan: Let me re-phase that – being primary scorer on his team college helack experience playing tradition pg.Bring ball half court seem to choir for him which I think he just had very little practice. Harvard forward where max 6’7 so not even use to throwing ball to post player.I’ve notice he his entry pass does not put post player in ideal position score.

    yes, he didnt play pg at harvard so he has no real experience in the position which is considered the most difficult position in the game. so for lin to play pg with knicks with no prior experience, no training sessions, playing with new players constantly added to the team, basically learning on the fly, and against some really good teams that’s been playing together for years, really says a lot about the kid dont u think??

    In the height linsanty, I’m definitely not seeing Steve Nash, but Elite scoring PG.Even now still feel he in top 10-15 as scorer for PG. He seem average passing PG and below average ball handler.

  296. thyrdrail

    JC Knickfan: Let me re-phase that – being primary scorer on his team college helack experience playing tradition pg.Bring ball half court seem to choir for him which I think he just had very little practice. Harvard forward where max 6’7 so not even use to throwing ball to post player.I’ve notice he his entry pass does not put post player in ideal position score.

    In the height linsanty, I’m definitely not seeing Steve Nash, but Elite scoring PG.Even now still feel he in top 10-15 as scorer for PG. He seem average passing PG and below average ball handler.

    yes, he didnt play pg at harvard so he has no real experience in the position which is considered the most difficult position in the game. so for lin to play pg with knicks with no prior experience, no training sessions, playing with new players constantly added to the team, basically learning on the fly, and against some really good teams that’s been playing together for years, really says a lot about the kid dont u think??

  297. JC Knickfan

    thyrdrail: yes, he didnt play pg at harvard so he has no real experience in the position which is considered the most difficult position in the game. so for lin to play pg with knicks with no prior experience, no training sessions, playing with new players constantly added to the team, basically learning on the fly, and against some really good teams that’s been playing together for years, really says a lot about the kid dont u think??

    Potential to be very good to elite PG is there. With Gilbert Arenas rule Lin guarantee to be Knick for another year. The question who going to be coach?

  298. Will the Thrill

    haha, if Lin is bad, what is Baron Davis?
    If Landry is bad, what is JR Smith?
    Melo is a plus defender? Wow you must know something that nobody else knows.

    Juany8: People can’t consistently stay in front of Derrick Rose, now, but Lin can’t stay in front of anybody. He’s a fucking pathetic defender. Pathetic. So is Landry, which maybe says something about why they got drafted where they are. Unless they are game changers offensively, giving that much dribble penetration is always a net negative. Which means Landry Fields has yet to have a good game this YEAR. Any guard in the league can run a pick and roll with any PF against this team and they will compromise the Knicks defense severely. Our only 2 starters that are plus defenders are Chandler and Melo (yes he is actually a pretty solid defender, surprise!) Lin and Landry simply can’t play together, not if Stoudemire is going to continue to be among the league’s worst defenders.

  299. Juany8

    Will the Thrill:
    haha, if Lin is bad, what is Baron Davis?
    If Landry is bad, what is JR Smith?
    Melo is a plus defender? Wow you must know something that nobody else knows.

    I know that Doc Rivers ran his offense around getting Melo away from his best player. I know no one goes straight at Melo pretty much ever. He’s a very mediocre help defender, which kills on a team that gives this much dribble penetration, but he’s one of the best options to guard Lebron in the entire league, he’s at least an average defender overall.

    Also yes, Baron is much better at preventing penetration than Lin, he is just awful, just as JR is better than Landry. Neither is a particularly good defender, which is why Shumpert should start, he’s the best wing defender on the whole team (and yes, that still meant that Paul Pierce wanted to go at Shumpert instead of Melo) Lin can then be put on the opponents weaker guard, solving our problems against anyone except OKC.

  300. Caleb

    Melo isn’t as bad as some people I could mention, but he’s always a weak link.

    I don’t think Lin is terrible, especially not for a rookie. I mean people are talking about how Brandon Jennings burned him, but aside from Jennings being a pretty good player, Lin burned Jennings going the other way, just as bad.

    And not sure where this, “terrible, not even starter-level guy,” came from. I wasn’t a Linsanitic but I can see he’s good at running the offense and getting in the lane, and the numbers back it up… The top 5 or 10 veteran PGs in the league isn’t the best comparison, look at what other guys did the first 20 games of their rookie years (I know he’s a little older, which skews it, but he also hasn’t had the same amount of top-level competition).

    But agree, Lin and Fields together causes a lot of problems defensively. Of course when you think J.R. Smith is going to solve a defensive problem, ouch. Let’s hear it for Shump! That’s a guy who has (or should have) a defined role.

    If anyone wants to look at the bright side, our team 18-22 against the weakest schedule in the league… we’ve actually been unlucky! Our point differential is that of a 21-19 team!

    @322 For better or worse, I don’t think it matters much. We might miss the playoffs by a game and that one would hurt, but #9 vs. 1st-round wipeout? Meh.

  301. Caleb

    @385 Baron was a killer defender in his prime. Still looks ok to me.

    I agree Melo is an ok to pretty good man defender (at least against bigger opponents, like LeBron) but he’s so oblivious to switches and anythign away from the ball, there’s no way he makes it to average. His team has always given up more points with him on the floor than off, except one season (2006) when it was even. Some seasons it was ugly.

  302. hoolahoop

    jon abbey: do watch games with this in mind, and I’ve come to the exact opposite conclusion. Lin really isn’t a starter in this league at this point (maybe in the future), unfortunately this incarnation of Baron might not be much better.

    Lin will never start a single game for another team.

  303. hoolahoop

    limpidgimp:
    I’m cringing about the upcoming Bulls game. Hopefully they will show up to play for national TV.

    I was thinking they shouldn’t show up at all – save the airfare.

  304. hoolahoop

    Fire Dantoni.
    -The knicks W-L is below their talent level.
    -They don’t play with sustained intensity. They usually come out flat every quarter.
    -Terrible clock management.
    -Bad rotations.
    -They lose most of their games.

    I was happier than anyone when the knicks got Dantoni. It’s obvious, he got to go. I’ve come to realize that Nash made Dantoni. Nash is a basketball genius. It was him that ran the team on the court. He kept everyone involved and made his teammates better.

  305. Will the Thrill

    I didn’t mean just defensively, I meant Landry vs. Smith, and Lin vs. Baron as a whole.

    Juany8: I know that Doc Rivers ran his offense around getting Melo away from his best player. I know no one goes straight at Melo pretty much ever. He’s a very mediocre help defender, which kills on a team that gives this much dribble penetration, but he’s one of the best options to guard Lebron in the entire league, he’s at least an average defender overall.

    Also yes, Baron is much better at preventing penetration than Lin, he is just awful, just as JR is better than Landry. Neither is a particularly good defender, which is why Shumpert should start, he’s the best wing defender on the whole team (and yes, that still meant that Paul Pierce wanted to go at Shumpert instead of Melo) Lin can then be put on the opponents weaker guard, solving our problems against anyone except OKC.

  306. thyrdrail

    hoolahoop: Lin will never start a single game for another team.

    oh really ur that sure huh? quite a statement for u to make about a rookie with barely any professional nba playing experience.

  307. ruruland

    Caleb: @385 Baron was a killer defender in his prime. Still looks ok to me. I agree Melo is an ok to pretty good man defender (at least against bigger opponents, like LeBron) but he’s so oblivious to switches and anythign away from the ball, there’s no way he makes it to average. His team has always given up more points with him on the floor than off, except one season (2006) when it was even. Some seasons it was ugly.

    2008.

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