2012 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Suns
January 18th, 2012 by Jim Cavan | @JPCavan | Comments | Permalink |
Spit truth here.
Beyond his work for KnickerBlogger, Jim is a contributor to the New York Times Off the Dribble NBA blog, ESPN.com, and The Classical. He is currently working on a biography of Robert Silverman, titled "Clownin' and Astoundin.'" Follow him on Twitter @JPCavan.
SHUMP SHUMP
(if NY loses again tonight, we may have to try something else next game.)
Liking the ball movement, involvement of Amare, and who’s this #7 Anthony guy?
It’s so maddening and obvious that every team just says set a simple big man screen at the top of the offense and the Knicks will switch. Then take the big man on the guard into the post and the Knicks will double then move the ball to the open man. This is how you beat the Knicks. Plain and simple and easy.
Knicks offense isn’t much harder. Double Anthony and watch him pass to Douglass. Cue laugh track
Perfect example of what is killing this offense. Melo drives and kicks it out to an open Jorts who doesnt shoot the 3pter, instead swings it to TD in the corner who wasnt open. He dribbles it all the way back out to the top of the key before driving and hitting all backboard on a floater.
Jorts and Jeffries running a 2-man game on offense. WTF. lol
Only Toney can make Nash look like a good defender.
TD hit all backboard again on a jumper and Jorts misses the easy putback. This is pretty sad.
He seems like good people, but it may be time to send Toney Douglas to the glue factory.
I mean it’s almost comical. Toney Douglas and Landry Fields can barely hit the rim on jump shots. It’s insane. It’s absurd. These guys are D League level players. How can Melo be expected to pass to them? I mean really?
Can we at least try benching the former? I’m not sure how he provides much of an upgrade over Bibby, or even Jeremy Lin right now.
Amar’e cant score on Gortat.
Gortat’s a pretty bad dude.
have to call jared jefferies dr jared after that wild finish……
Amare cant go left and he’s also lost his first step speed. So with no more 15 footer and no more explosion he’s below average. Seems like the speed and the jumper should come back tho
I love Gortat, is on my fantasy team.
Also MDA has completely screwed up Shumpert. He has him trying to think so much like a pass first PG that he completely misses wide open driving lanes to the basket. He is playing totally hesitant.
These are 2 bad teams.
Sorry, my irony detector is on the fritz.
Open question: When was the last time the Knicks shot over 45% from the field? Jeez Louise.
For my own sake, I think I need to turn this off and go outside. I can’t sit through another one of these hideous 93-89 victory/defeats or plain ol’ defeat/defeats.
Oh look at that. A Melo Amar’e PnR lead to free throws.
That’s a flagrant? He’s still alive. C’mon.
i’ve got an idea…. maybe bibby should start out defending gortat and chandler should start on nash. that way we could eliminate the pnr from phoenix’s offense.
This is fucking awful.
Here’s some truth. This team is not good.
Its especially not good when Melo is playing with only 1 hand. lol
+1000 this is painful
Is there any doubt the Knicks of first half of last season would crush this current Knicks squad as it is currently playing????
So, Melo needs to shoot more now right, or is he the reason guys aren’t converting off of the doubles he’s creating?
I’ve started smoking cigarettes again so something positive is coming out of this debacle
Depends, is the first half Knicks team from last season which twice lost 6 in a row be playing the current Knicks??
Awful, awful, awful! How can an NBA team be so bad???? Not to mention the so called “superstars”… Awful!
Ive never smoked in my life but watching this game might lead me to doing so lol
I’m pretty sure he’s hurt, so I don’t think I’d want him shooting a lot. I’d like some post-ups from him.
Steve Nash is too good. There should be a law where he has to be 10% less good.
I can’t recal any superstars playing super-star like for extended periods of time with a supporting cast as bad and incompetent as this one. Actually, I can only think of a few NBA teams that were this bad 4-12.
It’s so painful to watch those 18 foot jumpers. From the moment the player jumps, be that Stat, Fields, or whoever, you already know he is going to miss. Painful!
For the 76ers thread, the opening shump shump was done thusly:
SHUMP SHUMP!!!
Since then, we have had not one all-caps-triple-exclamation-point shump shump. We also have not won a game.
QED
Melo has been in the post. It creates an automatic double team which isn’t being converted at all.
Right, I’m saying I’d continue doing that. He’s hurt, so his shooting is going to be off, so just continue posting. If his teammates don’t hit, then so be it. But go with what gets his teammates open looks rather than forcing shots when his shooting is likely going to be off due to his injury.
This team would be 180 degrees different on offense with Baron Davis, and say JR Smith, who wants to play in NY with his old pal.
it’s not just that players 4-12 are bad offensively, it’s that they’re so bad they compound each other’s ineptitude.
Of course! These people look like they never played together before!
D’Antoni’s Nugget team or whoever coached the year before Melo arrived?
i’ve seen Melo score 20 second half points against the Indiana Pacers in ’08 with a broken hand (which forced him to miss the next month or so)…..
This team has no chance unless he tries to take over at some point, and if he finds a release point he will take over.
Precisely. Anthony Goldwire, Donnel harvey and the 11 win squad, as well as the Camby, Nene-”led” 17 win team in 2002
Ruru you sound like you’re Melo’s agent, and JR Smith’s as well
I’ve seen Melo force the issue in the second half of a close game and go 4-14 in the second half against the Orlando Magic in ’12 with the same injury he has right now.
The team doesn’t have a great chance with that, either.
Jeff Bzdelik squad.
understood. But given what we’ve seen tonight do you blame him for taking those shots ( alot of them open looks?)
Did you read the WSJ piece on JR Smith. It’s not a random reference.
Phil Weber was droppin some knowledge in that brief pre-2nd half interview. Was that a rare candid moment or are assistant coaches exempt from the constant cliched talk that happens in hoops? Or am I making too big a deal out of a 30 second interview (probably this one).
In Melo’s defense near the end of the half he passed to Fields, who missed a three and then on the next possession passed go Fields against and Fields hit the jumper.
I live in Denver and either the nuggets need to lose a ton of games or, better yet, the knicks need to win a ton. I’m tired of my “friends” mocking me and laughing derisively at my support of a guy I ain’t liked since cuse. Good finish by shump.
yes clyde, “the grandeur of shumpert.” couldn’t have said it better myself
Fields percolating out there!
I need to get back to working on my book “Toney Douglas misses the 23-foot jumper: the story of the 2012 Knicks”
Yes Landry! Aggressiveness!
Melo should be sitting tonight. He must be in pain because his shot is not falling and his defense is very lame
Can I just say I’ve lost all the love for TD?
The Knicks got some flow going and then TD drove into no where and threw up a prayer. He picks up the dribble for no reason on the next possession. He’s terrible.
I think Melo was kinda trying to shoot his way back into rhythm, but clearly in this case he shouldn’t.
Jeffries’ high socks make me chuckle.
Playing a terrible team tight…snicker.
Stat….
Stat can play D when he tries, but he just doesn’t put in the effort.
This is an ugly game
by the way i don’t know if anyone noticed, nate robinson is playing well. I still feel the knicks should have given him a look. This team is so offensively challenged, he couldn’t hurt.
This is really really really hard to watch. The Knicks are in a dogfight with a team that’s lost 5 in a row and got their doors blown off last night in Chicago. And I have no idea who we can turn to for offense. I foresee a painful ending.
Yes. Yes you can. And yes, yes he is. Gotta be a lack of confidence. I doubt he forgot how to dribble, shoot, pass and defend. Gotta be confidence.
For the love of GOD can someone on the Knicks make a freaking wide open 3pter!!!!!!!!!
great block by STAT!
man I wish Landry would find his long-range stroke again.
He was always in and out of the dog house. I don’t think the coaching staff would want him.
TD just can’t get 15-20 mins a game anymore. He has to be benched.
Cant blame the Knicks D or the team’s effort tonight.
Clutch FT shooting by the Knicks.
Sigh
Wow. I’ve never seen anything like this before.
Melo should be sitting, TD should never get off the bench and the Knicks each need 200 FTs tomorrow because they suck at it.
Did you just pull off the rare double sarcasm move?
69 points on 34% shooting from field against phoenix…1-11 from 3-point range! saweeet!
The gang that couldn’t shoot straight:
35%
9%
66%
We’re losing to a bad team that has played badly. The only successful part of the suns offense all night has been Nash on switches and Grant Hill losing Anthony for open 12 footers.
Just an awful game to watch.
btw, san antonio and orlando are in overtime tied at 79….HAHHAHAHHAHHAAH…gotta love post-lockout NBA!
Does anyone have a solution to the blackout issue for Time Warner users. Kind of would like to watch this debacle….
Shump Shump
No you don’t
wish that was a 3, but it looks like Shumpert’s shooting form is starting to come to him.
Ive had it with this crap. Melo trade is the worst trade in Knicks history. Maybe NBA history.
(I might change my mind in a few minutes)
Does anyone think we would be better w Harrelson than Melo right now?
Mda offense has always been predicated on having a great pg. This seems like something we could’ve addressed years ago. Not in the draft mind you. We needed jordan hill.
Great rebounding down the stretch by the Knicks.
Great strategy down the stretch of leaving Shannon Brown wide open in the corner.
Wow Shumpert! Then a suck shot three by Brown
triple sarcasm!
Im on a roll!!
Ick.
win or loss, let[s be honest….no good was coming out of this utter debacle.
I was gonna post about that. Phoenix takes about a minute of clock and scored. Awful
Amar’e and Melo a robust 10-40 from the floor. That’s why they get the big dollars.
This is going to be the final nail for D’Antoni. He should be gone tomorrow.
I’m glad Tyson Chandler is on our team.
we might lose this one, but if this game means Shumpert has found his outside shot, mannnnnnnnnnnnnnn…..
You hit the rarified quad sarcasm. That’s ( great shot shump!!) all star level.
I guess you could say Fields went from sucky to OK, that’s a positive, right?
D’Antoni looks like all the blood has left his body.
Wizards just beat Oklahoma City,
I sure hope that rumor of trading shump and fields for Nash is true cause potential and youth is for gypsies and teams with a plan.
that was truly a miracle three by Anthony…
At least the Knicks are fighting at the end
Holy Shot Melo. Then again Nash is on the line.
And with his 22nd shot of the night, Carmelo finally reaches double digit points. CLUTCH.
WHAT THE H*LL WAS THAT!!!!!
Even for a low-percentage desperation play, that was bad.
Oh geez. I mean what in the name of Charles Oakley is going on here?
Not possible b/c of the cap. And it’d be dumb
Madison Square Garden – where sick teams come to get better
man, there’s no rent-a-PG or ANYONE in the D-League that can run an offense competently. Screw having a jumpshot (though you’d love it a guy did have a J); just SOMEONE to run an NBA offense and pass a little.
Oh well considering the game was obscene it seems appropriate that I posted one as well
12 points on 24 possessions. Go Melo….
It’s a good thing I am blacked out it seems…
super dumb.
Strangely, I’m not too mad about this one.
-Melo’s clearly hurting.
-Stat hasn’t found his jumper yet.
-Fields played well!!
-Shump played well!! (though he’s not a point guard)
-We still don’t have any healthy point guards worth a damn (except maybe Lin.)
-The bench is still pretty useless.
-Baron still provides a glimmer of hope for the future.
Right now we’re just going to suck, there’s no two ways about it. By mid-February, maybe we’ll be a decent enough team to make the playoffs and make some minor noise…..
SECOND!!!
that mid Feb possibility is the only thing keeping me going. I’m far too numb to be mad. I haven’t had legitimate hope since the 90′s of us being a real contender.
I hope Baron Davis realizes that the hopes of thousands of Knicks fans rest on his shoulders (and bulging disk) Think he’s up for that?
Right now he’s probably thinking “Shit, I should’ve been nicer to Dan Gilbert.”
I would really love to know what James Dolan is honestly thinking right now about this team.
MSG comment: “Steve Nash may be able to get more than what the Knicks will be able to offer through the mid-level exception.” Well, take a 3 milliions away from overpaid Stat, 3 away from overpaid Melo, 2 away from overpaid Chandler, and you have enough salary cap space to bring Nash on anybody else. Melo, Stat, and Chandler are not the problem. They are good players. The problem is that they are being paid like superstars. And this creates a very-very disbalanced, and, at the end, BAD BAD team.
The mindless switching on screens is laughable. How do they expect to win with this defensive technique????? D’antoni has to be the dumbest coach I have come across since Isiah. When was the last time anyone has said “good play written up by D’antoni” or “smart decision by D’antoni”?
The offense is absolutely nothing but iso’s some random pick and rolls thrown in that never amount to anything (of course, teams aren’t switching like we are). Right now our offense is totally reliant on the ability to make contested jump shots in isolations and when we finally get an open shot, we can’t convert.
It is getting pretty embarrassing watching a team underperform so badly and it just seems like something has to be changed (firings, trades, something)
Oh, no, don’t worry, he will be OK. Ticket prices raised by 50% this season, I think. Same for commercials, etc. He’ll be ok, don’t worry.
Next 2 games Fri and Sat home vs the Bucks who the Knicks always play horrible against and of course vs the Nuggets. It could get real ugly at MSG this weekend.
Five things I wonder:
1) Is
2) It
3) Time
4) to
5) Panic?
It’s so much more infuriating watching this team than the pre-Melo knicks. Hell, it was less infuriating watching the Knicks with David Lee and Robinson! At least they didn’t have the tools to be a good team, they were just a bad one. I am seriously starting to believe that Melo’s ego is hurting this team more than anything and that his style of play is ruining the Knicks chances. If they get a PG (Davis) and they still suck, then the team needs to be blown up ASAP.
1-5) Too late for me lol
Whew! For a second there I thought he might sell the team to a component owner.
I doubt that. He knows what his opportunities are with this team and this city. I really believe most of the teams ills right now fall in line with Davis’ strengths. Again, we don’t need (or should expect) 2007 Baron; 2020 Baron at this point will help tons.
I think hitting a low point is going to be good for this team. It may not come for awhile. But by the time they come out of it the unhinged floodgates of pent up frustration will be something to see.
he’s counting the gate receipts and laughing his ass off while popping his third tuinal for the evening……..
All the frustration in the world won’t stop them from switching on screens 40 feet from the basket. Nor will it help them make contested fadeaway after contested fadeaway. Tactics/systems needs to change with the team’s offense and defense and then we will be getting somewhere.
how about “WHEN THE HELL WILL BARON BE HEALTHY AND READY?!?!?”
i didnt have time to watch he game but just an assumption you guys think the starters are overworked and we need real quality bench players as in trade melo for some quality bench players watcha think
It would be unwise for fans to bury this team, not with the respective competitive fires of Chandler, Amar’e and Melo. Right now the Knicks are the embarrassment of the league. Amar’e took a chance to sign here. This is Melo’s hometown. Chandler put his name on the line to play alongside those two.
There is much more than a season on the line. These guys’ legacies will come under question as the losses pile up.
Oftentimes, it’s a great recipe for a late-season run. When things to start to click, and they will, I think it gives the team a chance to make a deep playoff run.
Now we get to see
Thanks God for the Giants.
I can still tell people I’m a Nicks fan.
Defense is actually really good right now. A lot of teams switch on the Suns because it disables their potent pick and roll.
With Chandler’s coverage inside it’s actually a good defensive strategy because it takes teams out of sets and turns them into stagnant, iso/post ups centric offense.
Offensively I’m really just at a loss for words. But I can’t believe it’s going to get worse. I’ve never seen a team play this poorly as a collective unit.
For those willing to wait out this storm their will be a reward, perhaps a significant one.
But this team is going to get absolutely buried after tonight. Don’t think that gets lost on guys.
I agree with this, obviously he woke up too late in this one and it’s clearly due to the lack of exclamation points at opening tip. people keep saying he shoots too much, I wish he shot more given the rest of the options, or at least had the ball in his hands a lot more. they send him to stand in the corner too often, give him the damn ball.
anyway, very positive signs for Shump Shump and Fields especially, was I the only one who noticed our guys getting whacked in the head repeatedly on drives down the stretch?
also, Jared Jeffries played his ass off on D in the first half, he guarded both Nash and Gortat successfully one on one within a minute or so, the list of guys in the league who can do that is very short.
so good game for the supporting cast, but Melo looks hurt and Amare still doesn’t have his normal lift. and the switching as people said is ridiculous, so predictable. there aren’t many legit post threats like Howard and Gortat around, but still, tough to watch.
Sound idea. I’m sure the Melo/Amar’e hate will commence as never before. Just remember to stick with it when this starts going the other way on you.
there is precedent with the 99 squad. Pride is a helluva motivator for normal people, doubly so for pro athletes. Realistically its still early. Granted its a short season but we are in the east. A solid 1, shump with more experience, and everybody else in rhythm and we can make noise.
the knicks have 53 million tied up next year with amar’e, chandler and melo. add shumpert’s 1.68 million and 8 cap holds and they are at the cap.
best of luck getting those 3 to give back 10 million or so next season for nash.
The switching is counter-intuitive but there is clearly a method to it that’s creating fantastic outcomes, for the most part.
it often puts the honus on guys unaccustomed to creating their own shot to make individual plays, make decisions with the ball in their hands. It’s deceptively effective, luring teams into doing things they aren’t good at.
Fields was much more aggressive tonight and that was nice to see. But he still cant make a 3pter to save his life and he barely hit rim on some of his FT’s (0 for 4 3pt, 5 for 9 FT).
But I will take tonight’s Fields every day. Gotta hope/assume he will start hitting some 3pters in the future.
BTW, the Knicks outrebounded the Suns by 16 tonight.
Defensive switching isn’t a terrible strategy when you have Chandler out on the perimeter, or even someone like Jeffries, or Jorts, guys who can keep up with perimeter players. When you end up with Amar’e on Nash though…. you need to rethink your strategy
That’s what the 2008 Nuggets did. When things finally came together, after what was really an ugly, frustrating start to the season, they had another gear that other teams, good teams, couldn’t match.
basketball is unique in that way.
You can see it in the frenetic desperation they played with tonight….And the looks on their faces after the game.
I think it’s quite natural for any person or group of people, who, once they’ve survived a situation with their backs to the wall, become infused with adrenaline….
Beyond that, confidence….I have a sense this team will be front-running squads out of MSG in March.
Looking at the box score only 1 reason Knicks lost plain and simple, they couldnt shoot. Horrible 3pt (4 for 15) and FT shooting (20 for 30). Cost them the game.
I don’t mind a fair amount of switching, just don’t be so predictable about it. When the other offense can rub their guy off 25 feet from the basket early in the shot clock over and over, something is wrong.
Nash is going to have the ball in his hands anyway. The idea is that you’d rather have your big trying to contest his shot than stop the roller on the impeccable Nash pass.
Unless you have great PNR defense, it’s a great strategy IMO. Chandler, Amar’e and jeffries should be good enough laterally to force guards into cluttering up the spacing inside. Guys like Melo, as you saw tonight, are strong enough to take-on bigs inside. Shumpert, with his length, is quite versatile in that sense as well.
im sorry, but to be honest i still dont think its the team. its the team concept. we have the key players, we have key bench players. and that only leaves one solution; we need to fire mda and give the reigns to coach woodson. trust me when i tell you this team will win. two main reasons, the team is better defensively this year because of him, second he knows how to get the most out of all his players. mda doesnt know how to use a bench. he always had a 9 man rotation. they need to rest the starters. mda is not a chess player. he is still playing flying kings, coach woodson at least knows the fundamentals of chess and thats all thats needed to win in a short seaon with this team ask the clippers
Here’s the new KB logo: http://twitpic.com/88zqyr
I used to be this optimistic but honestly I just cant be anymore because it is totally irrational to do so.
Right now all Im looking at is a team who will at best be a 7th or 8th seed who can hopefully avoid the Bulls or Heat in the 1st round so they could maybe win a couple of games and have a competitive series.
I think his problem is not that they need him to hit 3 pointers. They need him to play his game. What is his game? Use his head hustle grab rebounds, drive to the basket that is his game.
http://knickerblogger.net/quick-reaction-suns-91-knicks-88/
Spew away, gang.
Nash did almost all of his damage off of switches- took open jumpers when Chandler switched on him and just drove right past Amar’e when he switched. Shumpert was actually really good when switched on the big- Morris drew a shooting foul but every other time he either stripped the big or really challenged the shot and forced a miss. I’d agree that the only other real option would have been to trap the p n r but Nash is as tough to trap as anyone in the league. Still, the Knicks surrender that switch way too easily- rather than trying to get over the pick and only switching as a last resort the Knicks are just switching right away- that’s fine if it’s a two and three, or even two/four or one/three but you shouldn’t switch one/five without a fight no matter who your five is.
Ruru I’m just saying this is disgraceful. Did you see the minutes, 40 for Shump a rookie, 38 melo a man with half a body working, tyson chandler 38 a man that’s accident prone not to mention 38 for amare and 37 for fields. That’s nuts, and what did the bench score i don’t know less than 10, come on be real they need to use their bench. That’s what I’m saying
understandeable……But I think you need to recongize that this team is playing as bad as it possibly can on offense…
This is so true I’m just so disgusted really but not with the players. Nope I’m disgusted with the coaches. Even regular people like ourselves see what is wrong with the Knicks and the Coach cant see didly. Is he watching the same game as us smh. Ive always been a big Knicks fan but this is disgraceful the knicks in 2008 were better, at least they had heart and where fun to watch. This team is playing tired and all i hear is excuses. I dont hear Amare Saying wake up. I dont Hear melo Saying we need to practice by ourselves That way our shots go down. No i hear we cant hit the ocean. Come on no heart just collecting paychecks smh