Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, November 25, 2014

2012 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Mavs

For all your in-game chortles.

165 comments on “2012 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Mavs

  1. Gideon Zaga

    And please stop with the Dantoni nonsense. They just need someone like Nate McMillan who is willing to run the 7sol. Dantoni remember is not a coach. I mean why fire Mike Brown and replace him with Dantoni. Thats like replacing a one trick pony with the other trick. Just stop.

  2. massive

    Does anybody notice how much the Knicks talk to each other between plays? Did that happen last year, or is this something new?

  3. yellowboy90

    massive: Does anybody notice how much the Knicks talk to each other between plays? Did that happen last year, or is this something new?

    I saw them huddle a lot last year

  4. yellowboy90

    Rasheed must have put in some serious work to get in shape. He also must be doing great in practice for Camby not to play. Camby and other players said he has been ready to play. What a luxury

  5. PD

    Carlisle’s facial expressions are only 2nd to pop. I get such a kick out of him.

    And Felton can pass.

  6. Juany8

    Well the Knicks had to miss good looks sometime, they’ve been outplaying the Mavs but the Mavs are simply making shots right now while the Knicks aren’t.

  7. Juany8

    EB:
    So much for Crowder holding Melo to 13pts.

    I think Melo has scored every time Crowder has guarded him. He’s a solid young player, but who the hell does he think he is lol

  8. Bruno Almeida

    when Brewer and Kidd play this is a considerably better team.

    Melo is having a pretty awesome half so far.

  9. EB

    If this is what it looks like when we can’t hit a three and the other team hits all of them, I think I can live with it.

  10. ruruland

    FWIW, Melo put up 45 on Jones in 19 minutes in China, and trashed him on numerous other occasions. Melo’s been provoked again. Bad move on Jones’ part.

  11. BigBlueAL

    Only down 2 at the half?? I’ll take it. Would be nice though to get Mayo his 4th foul early in the 3rd quarter lol

  12. Nick C.

    So many Knicks with good halves: Brewer, Melo and Felton to name three. Novak missing killed a few minutes of possessions early in the second as JR was true to his word “look for Novak.” Feels weird to have the Knicks trailing. Hopefully Mayo and Carter come back to earth.

  13. johnlocke

    Observations thus far:
    Positives:
    – Melo has it going and is efficient
    – So is JR
    – Felton has made great passes, but needs to be a bit more aggressive offensively

    Negatives:
    – Novak has been terrible on defense, and is rushing his shot
    – Camby added 5 mins of blah…but it’s his first game so he gets a pass
    – Prigs is irritating me with his over-passing he needs to penetrate to shoot, everyone knows that as soon as he gets in the paint he’ll jump i the air and pass it out, that’s eventually going to lead to horrible turnovers

  14. d-mar

    johnlocke:
    In other news the Nets are destroying Orlando

    Is it possible to have an easier early schedule than Brooklyn? First 6 games – Toronto, Minnesota, Miami, Orlando twice and Cleveland. If they were as good as advertised, they’d be 5-1 at that point.

  15. d-mar

    Jason Kidd may be one of the smartest players I’ve ever seen on a basketball court. Remember a few years ago when he saw a coach roaming onto the court and purposely ran into him to draw a T? That was Woody.

  16. d-mar

    J Kidd vs. Marbury in the early 2000’s, one of the greatest basketball IQ mismatches in NBA history

  17. BigBlueAL

    Interesting seeing Knicks using big lineups for first time this season. Thats some wingspan on the court with Chandler and Wallace.

  18. Juany8

    Jae Crowder is going to learn to keep his mouth shut from now on lol, Knicks are straight up picking up him.

  19. johnlocke

    PRIGs is making all kinds of mistakes out there…picking up his dribble at halfcourt, dribbling around aimlessy….

  20. BigBlueAL

    With the way the NBA is now with flagrant fouls, that couldve been called a flagrant on Jones.

    On a side note, damn is Melo looking quick as hell with the ball this season.

  21. Nick C.

    massive:
    Novak for 3! Now I can go to sleep tonight in peace.

    He’s also put the ball on the floor and hit a short jumper, went in the air for a rebound and had a couple good help defensive plays.

  22. BigBlueAL

    That corner 3 from Melo with the shot clock winding down could be the beginning of the end for the Mavs.

  23. Nick C.

    Now that’s the Felton I remember so fondly: pushing the ball up the court and making good things happen.

  24. Frank O.

    Ruru:
    Melo on pace for the game you predicted. He’d be there now if not for some poor shots from the stripe.

  25. Bruno Almeida

    man, it seems we have really gone from one of the lowest basketball IQ teams in the league to one of the highest… even Who shot? J.R is making some smart passes…

  26. ephus

    It is not in the least bit surprising that Vince Carter has gone from hero to zero since he tweaked his hip in the third quarter. Tyson Chandler is one extreme of on-court toughness, Vince Carter is the opposite extreme.

  27. Bruno Almeida

    ephus:
    It is not in the least bit surprising that Vince Carter has gone from hero to zero since he tweaked his hip in the third quarter.Tyson Chandler is one extreme of on-court toughness, Vince Carter is the opposite extreme.

    Carter is embarassing, so much talent wasted…

  28. massive

    Remember those 20 win 76ers that we embarrassed two nights in a row? They’re about to beat the Celtics.

  29. Nick C.

    Frank O.:
    Ruru:
    Melo on pace for the game you predicted. He’d be there now if not for some poor shots from the stripe.

    I thought that too but he’s 9-19 from the floor.

  30. Juany8

    Worst game of the season and it still looks like the Knicks are going to win by 10+. With Philly and Miami winning, the Knicks are about to go up 4-0 against teams that have gone 12-1 against everyone else, and if this lead holds all of those wins will have been by double digits. At the very least, the Knicks have been by far the best team in the league so far. They didn’t even play well tonight and are still going to win pretty convincingly.

  31. massive

    I think it’s fair to say that Harden struggles against the league’s premier defenders. 3-15 from the floor with 5 TOs playing against one Tony Allen tonight. I think he’ll get it together sooner than later, though.

  32. Nick C.

    Well I can’t say I like the way this is closing out, but they haven’t had to close out a game yet so it’s good practice.

  33. johnlocke

    Just off on my pre-game predictions, b/c Chandler didn’t contest that two…haha.
    Predictions:
    Knicks win by 12 –> won by 10
    Mayo has ~30 –> Mayo had 23
    Dallas scores less than 100 –> 92

  34. Frank O.

    Tina: Describe your commitment to defense this year…
    Melo: We’re committed….

    Game 4 and Tina’s exhausted intellectually…

  35. cgreene

    The funny thing is that although Melo is doing other things like rebounding and playing tough D and making smarter ball decisions, he’s actually not really playing that great on O. If he goes on a tear like last April for a little bit it could get scary.

  36. johnlocke

    LOL – true. One of the under-the-radar stats folks aren’t talking about. Much more important than the threes made IMO

    llcoolbp:
    Knicks with only 8 turnovers. Sometimes that was a half for Jeremy Lin last year.

  37. ruruland

    EB:
    Melo with a .550 TS% in that game, but damn missed a lot of layups and FT’s.

    He’s never gotten the kinds of consistent looks he’s gotten in this offense.

    He’s nowhere near getting going yet. His assisted basket attempts are way up, and they are high quality looks. Because there is so much balance and sharing in the offense, he’s getting single coverage and less tilts in isolation. The offense is so much less predictable than it was in Denver.

    All of these things are the things we talked about this off-season, fantastic indicators for a career year.

  38. chrisk06811

    so….when they come back, whose minutes do amare and shump get?

    Sheed got 18 tonight; those go to amare, so do 10 of brewers; I can live with him at 28.

    Shump gets the 10 mins from prigs, 4 of JR’s and 4 of Novaks and 4 of feltons, gets him to 18, Smith to 23.

    what do you think? Should I even give a shit?? we are undefeated.

  39. Gideon Zaga

    Did it in Houston today, man needs to improve ball security

    llcoolbp:
    Knicks with only 8 turnovers. Sometimes that was a half for Jeremy Lin last year.

  40. ruruland

    johnlocke:
    LOL – true.One of the under-the-radar stats folks aren’t talking about. Much more important than the threes made IMO

    It’s the biggest reason the Knicks offensive efficiency will skyrocket from last season.

  41. llcoolbp

    Knicks showed they can win ugly. Sheed and Novak a combined 1-8 from 3. Camby only 8 minutes. When brewer and camby both get their legs back, they will be scary defensively. Barring (knock on wood) a major injury to melo this team is so deep they can probably have a terrific regular season. I might have to revise them to 55 or more wins.

    The question is can they integrate stat and go into the playoffs healthy for once, and really get on a roll. The one constant has to be melo. He needs to stay healthy and continue the unselfish play all year. Then they have a shot at being special.

  42. Gideon Zaga

    Goes to the assisted baskets long posts u subjected us to. Great job Nicko

    ruruland: He’s never gotten the kinds of consistent looks he’s gotten in this offense.

    He’s nowhere near getting going yet. His assisted basket attempts are way up, and they are high quality looks. Because there is so much balance and sharing in the offense, he’s getting single coverage and less tilts in isolation. The offense is so much less predictable than it was in Denver.

    All of these things are the things we talked about this off-season, fantastic indicators for a career year.

  43. d-mar

    Guys, regardless of whether Melo misses half his shots or 2/3 of his shots, it all comes down to defense for this team. Dallas had to fight for every single basket tonight, and once their bombs stopped falling, it was over Johnny. Did you see Tyson get all pissed off when Dallas got a layup with 30 seconds left? That’s the attitude of this team, nothing easy for the other team, contest everything. So when the Knicks’ shots aren’t falling (like Novak early) they’ll still hang around because of their D.

  44. llcoolbp

    Gideon Zaga:
    Did it in Houston today, man needs to improve ball security

    I didn’t even see today’s box score. I believe he’s also shooting 36 percent from the field and in the 20’s from 3. Imagine how crazy we would all be going right now if Lin was putting up those numbers here.

  45. DRed

    Another terrific win. I really have no complaints. If we keep playing defense like this we’re going to win a lot of games.

  46. johnlocke

    PRIGS is not essential…Shump takes the majority of his minutes. Interesting battle for time will be btw Sheed and Camby.

    chrisk06811:
    so….when they come back, whose minutes do amare and shump get?

    Sheed got 18 tonight; those go to amare, so do 10 of brewers; I can live with him at 28.

    Shump gets the 10 mins from prigs, 4 of JR’s and 4 of Novaks and 4 of feltons, gets him to 18, Smith to 23.

    what do you think? Should I even give a shit?? we are undefeated.

  47. jon abbey

    Smith took 16 shots in 27 minutes, and I would have liked to seen him take at least 3-4 more. some of the lineups he was out there with had very little firepower, he should at least be touching the ball on almost every possession if Melo is on the bench.

    good, really ugly win. Woodson now 22-6 in the regular season, a 64-18 pace otherwise known as “ruru territory”. :)

  48. BigBlueAL

    Frank O.:
    Tina: Describe your commitment to defense this year…
    Melo: We’re committed….

    Game 4 and Tina’s exhausted intellectually…

    Is it just me or is Tina looking kinda hot these days?? lol

  49. Gideon Zaga

    Funny thing about assisted baskets and ruruland thing, I actually saw Melo catch the ball on the move with the defense rotating off balance. That never happened last year. Melo had to tilt the defense and was never on the receiving end of it.

    Gideon Zaga:
    Goes to the assisted baskets long posts u subjected us to. Great job Nicko

    Gideon Zaga:
    Goes to the assisted baskets long posts u subjected us to. Great job Nicko

    Gideon Zaga:
    Goes to the assisted baskets long posts u subjected us to. Great job Nicko

  50. massive

    I can’t win to see how the media downplays this victory. Who do you think will be the first team to eclipse 100 points against us? I think the only team that has a chance this month is San Antonio.

  51. EB

    Lin actually had a pretty good game today 15 pts on 10 shots, 4 TO’s is a little much but nothing outrageous.

  52. nicos

    With this being the first game where Woodson had to use a real closing lineup it was interesting to see Kidd on the bench in crunch time. The Felton/JR/Brewer/Melo/Chandler front line looks like the Knicks best defensive lineup esp. when JR is getting after it. I will say Wallace had a few plays where he didn’t even bother to try to rotate out to the perimeter- if that continues look for KT get back into the rotation. Camby pretty invisible but excusable as it was his first real action of the season.

  53. bockadoo

    jr vs jamal for best 6th man. both are scoring machines on good teams. i’ll take jr with the better d.

  54. cgreene

    Lot of good signs in this game.

    1) Faced our first little bit of adversity and battled back fairly easily against a team we should beat but that is playing well.

    2) Did it without Melo for most of the 3rd

    3) JR Smith consistency continues

  55. BigBlueAL

    1993-94 Knicks started 7-0. These Knicks should start 5-0 but gonna be tough to match the 93-94 Knicks with a back-to-back vs the Spurs and Grizz next week on the road.

  56. cgreene

    Bill Simmons just put it perfectly…

    Just curious – how many Knicks fans would trade Carmelo for Gallinari, Chandler and Mosgov right now?

  57. PD

    Great ugly win for the Knicks.

    I flipped between the the Knicks and the rockets tonight. I will post later what I think about harden is being used.

    I still feel the Knicks are vunerable to an uptempo team and it was somewhat apparent early. The Knicks did a good job in the 2nd half to controll the pace and limit their turnovers as they have in the past few games.

    They still need to rebound a bit better. The 3pt weren’t falling at crazy rate but 36 percent for the team is still very good. A lot of good things for the team.

  58. jon abbey

    cgreene:
    Bill Simmons just put it perfectly…

    Just curious – how many Knicks fans would trade Carmelo for Gallinari, Chandler and Mosgov right now?

    also one of the main arguments there has always been the alleged impossibility of building depth around the contracts of Melo and Amar’e, which it seems like couldn’t have happened much quicker if there was no cap at all.

  59. cgreene

    jon abbey: also one of the main arguments there has always been the alleged impossibility of building depth around the contracts of Melo and Amar’e, which it seems like couldn’t have happened much quicker if there was no cap at all.

    We actually have depth and it’s not nearly as old as has been portrayed in the media and elsewhere. When Shump comes back we will have 5-6 major rotation players 30 and under if you include Novak and then 7 when Amare returns. You only need “old” minutes from Kidd (in the 20ish range) and ONE of Camby, Rasheed or Kurt.

  60. Juany8

    jon abbey: also one of the main arguments there has always been the alleged impossibility of building depth around the contracts of Melo and Amar’e, which it seems like couldn’t have happened much quicker if there was no cap at all.

    This team has a max contract of dead weight and it’s only draft pick from the last 3 years is sitting on the bench. Grunwald has done an absolutely masterful job of building this team, and it’s starting to look like the Jeremy Lin no sign (a move I strongly opposed when it was made) was the right call. Lin is flashier and a better scorer, but this team’s main strength is the lack of turnovers and the excellent passing from positions 1-5 (Amar’e being out helps big time in this regard)

    As a side note, it is outright depressing to see how James Harden performs against All-Defense wings. The Finals performance was only a fluke if you ignore that he was going up against Miami, he just can’t get separation without using the pick and roll and teams just instantly trap him now since the Rockets don’t have a lot of other options (this exact strategy stops Jeremy Lin too lol, he just gets less attention) I still think he’ll be worth the contract he got, but the Rockets offense isn’t going anywhere unless they get more shot creation in the front court.

  61. PD

    Hey Juany.

    We will see on the Lin no sign. If he played next to Kidd I wonder if some good habits would rub off. Though I am a fan of Felton. I was in the early part of 10-11. I was most upset when he got traded. He wasn’t a good 2nd option on offense (he shot too much and still does). But he runs the “dantoni” 4 out screen and roll very well. I understand
    the advanced stat knock on him and I feel it. Though I feel he has value. He can pass the ball well and has good court vision.

  62. Brian Cronin

    1993-94 Knicks started 7-0. These Knicks should start 5-0 but gonna be tough to match the 93-94 Knicks with a back-to-back vs the Spurs and Grizz next week on the road.

    Don’t worry, Tim Duncan will get hurt tomorrow! This is a blessed Knicks season! Believe in it!

  63. massive

    Or until Harden adjusts to what the defenses give him, which is more plausible for him, a top 3 pick, than it is for the undrafted Jeremy Lin. I think Harden will figure it out sooner than later, but Parsons, Patterson, and Asik don’t really help him much on offense.

  64. PD

    I also have to give props to ruraland. His observation about the turnover percentage with the new players can’t be overvalued. Combined with the slower pace the team is playing if makes a huge difference.

  65. JC Knickfan

    Ugly shooting by Felton, but I have admit doing good job running the team. His shooting go hurt us later, but right now looks like Knicks’ FO made right decision.

  66. yellowboy90

    DId anyone get excited to see SHeed, Camby and Melo on the floor together? I got excited even when it was Novak, Sheed, and Camby. Even though that group didn’t play that well the potential is scary. Sheed is really a game changer for this team with his versatile game, size, and defense ability. HE could be the key to Amar’e and Melo working great together although if Stat is making his shot there will be no problem because I have no doubt they will work a 2man game more though.

  67. jon abbey

    PD:
    I also have to give props to ruraland. His observation about the turnover percentage with the new players can’t be overvalued.Combined with the slower pace the team is playing if makes a huge difference.

    yep, I meant to say this, they’ve gone from 29th in the league in turnovers to 1st (not adjusting for pace, just raw numbers). good job, ruru!

  68. jon abbey

    11 out of the next 15 on the road, including a bunch of tough ones. we will know a lot more about the non-Amare/Shumpie version of this team after that.

  69. massive

    Anybody watching the Nuggets game? Gallinari’s form seems changed from when he was in New York, which is probably why it isn’t falling anymore.

  70. jon abbey

    massive:
    Anybody watching the Nuggets game? Gallinari’s form seems changed from when he was in New York, which is probably why it isn’t falling anymore.

    yeah, someone said that here a few days ago, that he changed it after an injury and it has yet to ever be the same.

  71. yellowboy90

    My man C. Brewer with back to back 3s including a 4 pt play. Never understood why the Knicks cut him. It worked out though.

  72. PD

    so. here is my take on the rockets:

    ill give mchale some credit tonight for staggering lin and harden. but first ill address when they were sharing the court. when harden is initiating the offense why is lin left in the corner? he isnt a spot up 3pt shooter. when the ball will reach him he has to run a baseline/side pick and roll. that is not his game. he needs space. he needs to be up top. why i like the felton/kidd pairing is they are both up top when the offense is initiated and they can both create (either one) or drive (felton). after the initial action kidd can leak to the corner if felton is handling or kidd can find someone on a backdoor cut if the ball is swung to him. houston having 2 elite pick and roll players (as well as good passers overall) to keep the defense guessing is a huge advantage. especially one being right handed (lin) and one left handed (harden). they should be positioned in a left/right wing (in an inverse to their dominate hand) hockey type setup up at first then switch the sets to keep the defense guessing.

    as far as when harden is without lin. they subbed lin for delfino. so he is the defacto point. he NEEDS to push the ball more. harden has a quirky “laid back” game which i love. though he needs to understand (or the coach need to tell him) they are a young roster who needs to push the pace. if he can get down early and the rockets get into their offensive sets quicker they will be way more efficient. he’s too slow getting the ball up…

  73. PD

    as far as the question on harden being a #1 option. does machale call plays for him? is he just freelancing in a weird way to be the “man” (hero ball i guess)? why is he in isolation so much? he’s not melo or kobe (while i dont love that type of game they are better at it)..he is a great pick and roll handler who can draw fouls with the best of them. push the pace. spread the flour. high pick and roll. attack. mchale should know what he has. there is no reason because he’s the #1 option that he has to be taken so far out of his game. modern nba defensive are so smart and they love when a player like harden is forced into an iso/mid range game (especially one whom isnt accustom to it). having 2 players in lin and harden if done right can pick apart the modern “strong side” or hybrid zone schemes if done well. push the pace. spread the floor. high pick and roll. corner 3s. attack.

    i guess you can pick apart the roster and they don’t have the players to do this. it might be true. but delfino needs to be defended on the perimeter. parsons can shoot (i like him alot). maybee one of the multitude of power forwards can contribute. asik is so good on defense and the boards i cant fault him. the fact he kinda looks like a huge Judge Reinhold makes it hard for me to critique him as well. and lin. lin is still lin. for better or worse. ill give it more games before i really try to pick him apart. i’ll always have a soft spot and i love the fact the pressure is off of him somewhat. though he has looked ok so far

  74. jon abbey

    there was a sequence tonight with just over 8 minutes to go that was exactly what I was talking about in the offseason, how a missed shot can sometimes help the team, that THCJ amusingly called the dumbest thing he’d ever heard or something along those lines:

    Felton drives to the basket, draws his guy and Chandler’s, gets his shot blocked but no one is covering Chandler, who easily puts it back. official scoring:

    8:17 82-88 Elton Brand blocks Raymond Felton ‘s 2-foot layup
    8:15 82-88 Tyson Chandler offensive rebound
    8:12 82-90 Tyson Chandler makes layup

    so Felton is given no credit in the stats, only blame, even though it was his play that broke down the D and created the hoop. this seems shockingly easy to understand, but since some people seemed to have trouble last time, I thought I’d try again.

  75. massive

    The missed shot didn’t help the team, though. What helped the team was Felton’s penetration, and he screwed it up by getting his shot blocked (I bet Prigioni would have made the pass). It ended up that Tyson Chandler was in position to get the rebound and put it back (due to Felton’s penetration), but that is more of a function of Tyson cleaning up behind Raymond Felton than the missed shot helping the team.

  76. jon abbey

    I don’t think Felton had an angle to get Chandler the ball, but the point is that Chandler’s defender picks his poison on a play like that, either he lets Felton get an easy shot or Chandler an easy shot. I disagree that getting his shot blocked is ‘screwing up’ in that case, as it was almost certain that Chandler would then get the ball for an easy putback. the blocked shot confuses things a bit, but I still think it’s a good example.

    and yes, Prigioni would have passed, Prigioni always passes. he’s fine for a third stringer, but I will be happy to see him out of the rotation eventually.

  77. massive

    I’m just not sure how missing a shot is beneficial. Dribble-drive penetration that forces a defense to collapse helps an offense. Grabbing a rebound and putting it back helps an offense, but missing a lay-up? I guess your argument is something along the lines of:

    “Chandler is a better offensive rebounder & finisher than Felton is a finisher at the rim, but Chandler is not good at creating his own offense. If you allow Felton to drive to the basket and free up Chandler for a put back (off of Felton’s eventual miss), you have created a scoring opportunity for Tyson Chandler.”

    If that is in fact your argument, then I agree. I just think that it’s not the missed shot that helps, it’s the “crash the glass for more possessions” philosophy that helps as it allows Chandler to hang around the rim for the putback.

  78. jon abbey

    no, I am not saying that at all, this has nothing to do with whether Chandler has the offensive skills of Olajuwon or Chris Dudley.

    my argument is that Felton’s penetration and beating his man forces the defense to either allow him an uncontested shot or to leave Chandler alone. either way, NY will score. Felton and Chandler both do their jobs, Brand chooses which man he will leave open, the end result is identical from a team perspective but not from a box score perspective.

    maybe this is where you’re stuck: it’s not exactly that missing the shot is beneficial, it’s whether the shot goes in or not doesn’t matter. what matters is the penetration, the drawing Chandler’s defender to leave him open, and the getting the shot off. whether the initial shot goes in or not doesn’t matter, as the result for the team is identical.

  79. er

    someone above said melo needs more than 1 assist. I remind you last year in the early season he was avg something like 4.5-5 assists a game and we were losing constantly. Ill take my wins over stats

  80. er

    Great points. That brand play was showing your point to a T

    jon abbey:
    no, I am not saying that at all, this has nothing to do with whether Chandler has the offensive skills of Olajuwon or Chris Dudley.

    my argument is that Felton’s penetration and beating his man forces the defense to either allow him an uncontested shot or to leave Chandler alone. either way, NY will score. Felton and Chandler both do their jobs, Brand chooses which man he will leave open, the end result is identical from a team perspective but not from a box score perspective.

    maybe this is where you’re stuck: it’s not exactly that missing the shot is beneficial, it’s whether the shot goes in or not doesn’t matter. what matters is the penetration, the drawing Chandler’s defender to leave him open, and the getting the shot off. whether the initial shot goes in or not doesn’t matter, as the result for the team is identical.

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