Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, September 2, 2014

2012 Game Thread: Knicks vs Bucks

Void your rheum here…

200 comments on “2012 Game Thread: Knicks vs Bucks

  1. art vandelay

    a bit belated tonight I guess, but we had to try SOMETHING different to get off of the schnide!

  2. ess-dog

    Nick C.:
    Melo finding his stroke recently.

    He bricked 3 long twos that kinda put us behind. If he and Stat could just shoot 40% each we’d probably win.

  3. art vandelay

    I think they absolutely MUST put in Novak at some point…no one can hit an open 3 and bucks will have to double melo rest of game….they have to have at least one guy out there who can shoot the ball….the shooting is just killing us, plain and simple.

  4. BigBlueAL

    Fields, TD, Walker each missed WIDE OPEN 3pters that quarter. Walker couldve taken 1 hour to check the laces on the ball he was so wide open.

    Everyone can continue to bring up a million reasons why the offense sucks right now but it really is plain and simple, make some fucking open jumpers.

  5. ruruland

    ess-dog: He bricked 3 long twos that kinda put us behind. If he and Stat could just shoot 40% each we’d probably win.

    Yeah, Melo is killing the Knicks again tonight. Need to get the ball out of his hands and into the better offensive players on this team.

  6. ruruland

    BigBlueAL: Fields, TD, Walker each missed WIDE OPEN 3pters that quarter. Walker couldve taken 1 hour to check the laces on the ball he was so wide open. Everyone can continue to bring up a million reasons why the offense sucks right now but it really is plain and simple, make some fucking open jumpers.

    The only reason they’re missing right now is because Melo is taking them out of rythym.

  7. Nick C.

    ess-dog: He bricked 3 long twos that kinda put us behind.If he and Stat could just shoot 40% each we’d probably win.

    I meant very recently as in last two minutes :-)

  8. art vandelay

    I heard a rumor that toney douglas hit 9 3-pointers in a game last year to tie a Knicks record….I didn’t believe it, though…I assume this was just a joke, right?

  9. art vandelay

    Knicks literally have 4 nba-level players out there at the moment: Melo, STAT, Chandler and Shumpert I would say….anyone else on the roster who would not be a 10th man (let’s say rotation player) on a contending team?

  10. art vandelay

    and by “out there” I meant playing in this game..not literally on the floor at the moment.

  11. Droidz1979

    They sure do need a “decent” point guard at least.. that pass to Amare was poor that resulted to a forced shot and an offensive foul..

  12. Droidz1979

    That was a wide open 3 Bibby.. shoot it at times! Good thing defense seems to be bailing them out as of the moment. Hope it holds though

  13. art vandelay

    coming into this season I didn’t even think Jorts would get minutes, let alone be part of the rotation…what an indictment again the rest of the bench!

  14. art vandelay

    Baron Davis said earlier today apparently that last month he didn’t even think he would ever play basketball again…uh….kind of a red flag, no?

  15. ess-dog

    ruruland: Yeah, Melo is killing the Knicks again tonight. Need to get the ball out of his hands and into the better offensive players on this team.

    he’s at -4 with 3 turnovers and one awesome assist.

    I know it’s monday morning qb-ing, but in retrospect, perhaps we should’ve kept Chauncey and platooned Jorts and Jordan at center? I really like Jorts.

  16. Droidz1979

    Good thing Chandler is down the block.. opponents seem to fear driving thru the hoop nowadays.

  17. ess-dog

    Shump can’t shoot too good, but 5 dimes, two steals and 0 turnovers is pretty nice.

    Still shooting under 40% as a team…

  18. ess-dog

    This game is totally even except that we’ve missed 5 more shots than the Bucks, which is a lot relatively.

  19. art vandelay

    The only positive I have seen over this horrendous losing streak (including tonight) is that Fields is looking more aggressive, less tentative, and not afraid to make a mistake….he has shown signs that he could still be a very useful player if they had a real playmaker at the point.

    on the downside, pretty much everything else for the team.

  20. Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta) Post author

    art vandelay:
    The only positive I have seen over this horrendous losing streak (including tonight) is that Fields is looking more aggressive, less tentative, and not afraid to make a mistake….he has shown signs that he could still be a very useful player if they had a real playmaker at the point.

    on the downside, pretty much everything else for the team.

    Tyson Chandler’s having his usual good game. Shump’s made some nifty passes and JORTS!

  21. ess-dog

    ess-dog:
    This game is totally even except that we’ve missed 5 more shots than the Bucks, which is a lot relatively.

    Or to put it another way, if Melo had held off on 5 of his shitty shots, this game would probably be tied.

  22. Michael Cline

    Agree with all the Fields love, at least on offense. He is getting more agressive. But honestly, isn’t the majority of his success tonight due to fast breaks and ball movement? If we did that more often, maybe Landry wouldn’t look so terrible (Then again, his defense is still atrocious…if Amare wasn’t on this team, we’d be calling out Fields’ defense a lot more).

    On that note, how in the world has Amare gotten to this point? Is it all point guard driven? Does having a good point guard suddenly help him stop telegraphing his drives from the 3 point line that ALWAYS end up in charges? It’s just sad.

  23. nicos

    Shumpert needs to do a better job of keeping track of Jennings. He did push the ball well. Amar’e has back rimmed a bunch of dunk attempts this season- not a good sign. And they actually went to Chandler in the post- he made an ugly move but did draw a foul. That’s something you’d think they might try at least a little bit.

  24. ess-dog

    Michael Cline:
    Does having a good point guard suddenly help him stop telegraphing his drives from the 3 point line that ALWAYS end up in charges? It’s just sad.

    Yeah, that is really weird. He used to be a lot more fluid. Maybe he is more musclebound now? At least he’s trying. Hopefully it will become quicker and more fluid…

  25. Michael Cline

    Chandler is putting together a nice string of games. Rebounding better than he ever did with the Mavs. Seriously, how bad would our interior defense be without him? But with him and Jeffries down low, we’re actually really tough

  26. ess-dog

    nicos:
    Shumpert needs to do a better job of keeping track of Jennings.He did push the ball well.Amar’e has back rimmed a bunch of dunk attempts this season- not a good sign. And they actually went to Chandler in the post- he made an ugly move but did draw a foul.That’s something you’d think they might try at least a little bit.

    We can’t switch on Jennings, he’s too fast. How can they not see that?

  27. Nick C.

    Geez Fields is looking cloddish on these last few possessions. Dribbling into Bogut, throwing a crappy pass at Amare’s shin and before that useless with the ball in traffic under the basket.

  28. joe

    art vandelay:
    I think they absolutely MUST put in Novak at some point…no one can hit an open 3 and bucks will have to double melo rest of game….they have to have at least one guy out there who can shoot the ball….the shooting is just killing us, plain and simple.

    I like this thought………..but there is no effort and no husstle at all and it seems that they have given up………and there is NO BALL MOVEMENT none at all

  29. bobneptune

    Michael Cline:
    Agree with all the Fields love, at least on offense. He is getting more agressive. But honestly, isn’t the majority of his success tonight due to fast breaks and ball movement? If we did that more often, maybe Landry wouldn’t look so terrible (Then again, his defense is still atrocious…if Amare wasn’t on this team, we’d be calling out Fields’ defense a lot more).

    On that note, how in the world has Amare gotten to this point? Is it all point guard driven? Does having a good point guard suddenly help him stop telegraphing his drives from the 3 point line that ALWAYS end up in charges? It’s just sad.

    what on earth is he doing with the ball in his hands at the 3 point line??? earth to point guards…..

  30. Jahredmen

    Is this real? These are the Bucks!!! The only positive I can really see is that hopefully MDA is getting closer to a happy retirement.

  31. BigBlueAL

    Tomorrow night might go down as the most embarrassing night in Knicks history. Thats how bad an ass-whooping the Nuggets will probably deliver.

  32. Jahredmen

    The Bucks commentators were repeating “Melo not passing” earlier in the game throughout HIS possessions, kinda hilarious.

  33. ess-dog

    OK did you guys see that??? GREAT defensive possession and then Melo gets the ball takes 3 dribbles and just THROWS IT UP. I’m sorry, that guy is an IDIOT.

  34. joe

    Y’all if I’m wrong let me know but we need to trwde stat for like 2 or 3 players because him and melo just don’t work

  35. Jake S.

    I’ve been out living a moderately healthy and productive life. Has there been booing? I’m guessing there’s been booing.

  36. joe

    BigBlueAL:
    Tomorrow night might go down as the most embarrassing night in Knicks history.Thats how bad an ass-whooping the Nuggets will probably deliver.

    Yes!!!!!!

  37. Nick C.

    ess-dog:
    OK did you guys see that???GREAT defensive possession and then Melo gets the ball takes 3 dribbles and just THROWS IT UP.I’m sorry, that guy is an IDIOT.

    The whole offense is maddening. It either one pass an Melo does his thing or he passes to open shooters who on the last three went miss Walker, miss Bibby, make Jorts. Aargh

  38. JK47

    BigBlueAL:
    Tomorrow night might go down as the most embarrassing night in Knicks history.Thats how bad an ass-whooping the Nuggets will probably deliver.

    The most embarrassing night in Knicks history will be when the Nuggets use our pick to draft Harrison Barnes next year.

  39. xduckshoex

    Melo has shot below 38% in half of the games he’s played this season. I hope nobody is still holding on to that “he has to shoot because nobody else can make shots” nonsense. He’s not making them either.

    Also, is it just me or is the crowd starting to turn on Melo?

  40. ess-dog

    Nick C.: The whole offense is maddening. It either one pass an Melo does his thing or he passes to open shooters who on the last three went miss Walker, miss Bibby, make Jorts. Aargh

    Melo’s missed more threes than Walker, and Walker looks like shit. Basically the Knicks don’t have the spackle to make Melo’s game look semi-decent the way the Nuggets did.

  41. Michael Cline

    4-21 for Melo. The good news? By the end of the fourth, it will probably be 6-25. :( I agree that Melo is hogging it. But when he does pass, Bibby, Walker, and TD miss wide open looks. It’s a lose-lose for this team right now.

    I’ve never posted this on here before, but I think MD has to go. Either he can’t draw up decent sets (which he used to be known for doing quite well), or this team doesn’t listen to him. I think it’s the later, and thought it may be the players’ fault, it’s still on him to change that culture. He has to go. They are not going anything.

  42. Nick C.

    That final posssion was WTF. Melo stands with the ball above the top of the key waving Jorts up from the opposite corner Jorts comes over melodrama gives it to Bibby gets it back takes two dribbles and clangs without even using or having Jorts do anything

  43. Jake S.

    xduckshoex:
    Melo has shot below 38% in half of the games he’s played this season.I hope nobody is still holding on to that “he has to shoot because nobody else can make shots” nonsense.He’s not making them either.

    Also, is it just me or is the crowd starting to turn on Melo?

    I’m stuck watching the gamecast. Do tell!

  44. cgreene

    It may not be the correct thing but Dantoni is not going to be able to keep his job through this. The Knicks are the worst team in the league and getting worse

  45. xduckshoex

    ess-dog: Melo’s missed more threes than Walker, and Walker looks like shit.Basically the Knicks don’t have the spackle to make Melo’s game look semi-decent the way the Nuggets did.

    That’s the thing that people didn’t seem to get before the trade: the Nuggets were not a good team because of Melo, they were a good team. Period. When they were at their best, they went 10 deep, always had at least two guys who can create offense out of nothing on the floor and matched up well with everyone on the defensive end. If they had an average small forward in place of Melo they would still have been at least a .500 team.

  46. Nick C.

    ess-dog: Melo’s missed more threes than Walker, and Walker looks like shit.Basically the Knicks don’t have the spackle to make Melo’s game look semi-decent the way the Nuggets did.

    agreed.

  47. Jake S.

    I find myself rooting for them to get blown out in order to bring “it” to a head. Not sure if the “it” in this instance means a trade, a coaching change, mass suicide, or what.

  48. joe

    I just caught a glipmse of glen grunwald on the floor and man u should have seen the lost look on his face…….but yea mda just might have to go

  49. bobneptune

    Michael Cline:
    4-21 for Melo. The good news? By the end of the fourth, it will probably be 6-25. :( I agree that Melo is hogging it. But when he does pass, Bibby, Walker, and TD miss wide open looks. It’s a lose-lose for this team right now.

    I’ve never posted this on here before, but I think MD has to go. Either he can’t draw up decent sets (which he used to be known for doing quite well), or this team doesn’t listen to him. I think it’s the later, and thought it may be the players’ fault, it’s still on him to change that culture. He has to go. They are not going anything.

    fellas…. you can’t run an nba offense without an nba point guard.

  50. BigBlueAL

    Celtics losing 67-59 to the Suns at home. There are 6 mins left in the game. Rondo is out though.

  51. bobneptune

    BigBlueAL:
    You think Dolan would even allow Grunwald to trade Melo or Amar’e??

    never melo….. that would be admitting jimmy’s taking over the denver negotiations was an epic fail.

    never, ever happening. say hello to senor melo for the next 5 years of ball stopping/chucking pleasure.

  52. Jake S.

    BigBlueAL:
    Celtics losing 67-59 to the Suns at home.There are 6 mins left in the game.Rondo is out though.

    At least they get to blow up their team at the end of the year.

  53. Thomas B.

    So how is this Dolan’s fault? I know everything else ever was his fault, but is this his doing as well?

  54. Michael Cline

    bobneptune: fellas…. you can’t run an nba offense without an nba point guard.

    That’s just utter bullshit right there. Why does not having a pg have to do with missing wide open shots, playing terrible defense, and refusing to change the strategy? It’s just stupid. Every game we watch on this board, we see things that MDA just seems oblivious too (like all the switching). These guys have quit on him. It’s so obvious.

  55. BigBlueAL

    Amar’e looks like Ewing. Ewing in 2000. Although at least Ewing when he was old and could barely score anymore still rebounded and defended like crazy.

  56. bobneptune

    Thomas B.:
    So how is this Dolan’s fault?I know everything else ever was his fault, but is this his doing as well?

    do you really need it explained?

  57. BigBlueAL

    Thomas B.:
    So how is this Dolan’s fault?I know everything else ever was his fault, but is this his doing as well?

    If the reports that the Melo trade was all his doing are correct than damn right it is mostly his fault.

  58. arro

    How is that not a clear path foul ???? Why is that foul called at all ? Why is it not called after the play has finished, NBA needs to take up advantage like football (soccer).

    Im starting to hate the NBA, all the hope that I had for the Knicks has evaporated. They actually suck so much that I should get paid to watch them. Why did we trade for Melo when we had a rising team, just plain stupid.

  59. Thomas B.

    BigBlueAL: If the reports that the Melo trade was all his doing are correct than damn right it is mostly his fault.

    So this is all about Melo?

  60. arro

    Why is a player that has won nothing, done nothing and amounted nothing get 20 million a year. Melo sucks.

  61. ess-dog

    I’m about 5 games away from becoming a Nets fan. I’ve lived in Brooklyn for 15 years. I don’t need this shit.

  62. SSS

    Watching Shump Shump play defense is the only thing about these Knicks right now that doesn’t make me want to gouge out my own eyes and fill them with bleach.

  63. joe

    Michael Cline: That’s just utter bullshit right there. Why does not having a pg have to do with missing wide open shots, playing terrible defense, and refusing to change the strategy? It’s just stupid. Every game we watch on this board, we see things that MDA just seems oblivious too (like all the switching). These guys have quit on him. It’s so obvious.

    Yup the only way someone can have their pride ripped from them is to quit on the coach

  64. BigBlueAL

    Thomas B.: So this is all about Melo?

    Nah, Ive always been a Melo supporter and still am. But as much as I tried to believe the trade wasnt bad its pretty clear now it was a bad trade. Mortgaging the future wasnt anywhere near worth it.

  65. Jake S.

    Not that I have any real interest in defending Mike D’Antoni right now, but I can’t imagine things being much better under Mike Woodson. I imagine more switching on defense and an offense that’s even more inept (if that’s possible).

  66. arro

    Its getting pretty desperate when you need to turn to a rookie for positives when you got 3 players getting $60M a year that suck so bad that they look like they are playing a completely different sport that involves no teamplay.

    I miss Gallo, Moz, Chandler and co … that team at least played as a team … this team is so bad its gonna be #26 in the next power rankings.

  67. SSS

    Jake S.:
    Not that I have any real interest in defending Mike D’Antoni right now, but I can’t imagine things being much better under Mike Woodson. I imagine more switching on defense and an offense that’s even more inept (if that’s possible).

    Just because he’s a former coach, does that mean he’s definitely the replacement? I fear that you’re right – but the logic to get to that point is just awful.

  68. Jake S.

    Thomas B.: Because before the trade the Knicks were in the playoffs?

    No, Thomas, but they were on their way to the playoffs. I don’t pretend that they broke up some future dynasty, but it’s looking increasingly clear that this trade was a sideways step at best.

  69. Thomas B.

    Jake S.: No, Thomas, but they were on their way to the playoffs. I don’t pretend that they broke up some future dynasty, but it’s looking increasingly clear that this trade was a sideways step at best.

    Is this specultion or fact? Were the Knicks in a playoff spot when the trade happened?

  70. arro

    Thomas B.: Because before the trade the Knicks were in the playoffs?

    Yes, we were 6th in east about the time of the trade. So YES we were a playoff TEAM. A TEAM.

  71. Jake S.

    Thomas B.: Is this specultion or fact? Were the Knicks in a playoff spot when the trade happened?

    They were two games over .500 and, if memory serves, were seventh or eighth in the playoff seedings at the time. Again, I’m not dumping on Melo, just lamenting that this looks like it’s not working out. Not sure what you’re bristling about over there.

  72. Thomas B.

    arro: Yes, we were 6th in east about the time of the trade.So YES we were a playoff TEAM. A TEAM.

    Fair enough. Historically many 6th seeds have won titles.

  73. Kikuchiyo

    FWIW, Knuggets got 58 points and 16 rebounds from Gallinari, Moz, and Al Harrington tonight. 21 for 32 shooting.

    I know, it’s meaningless to add it like that. But it does sting.

  74. ess-dog

    Thomas B.: Fair enough. Historically many 6th seeds have won titles.

    Really it’s that we gave up all our cap room that we could’ve used on other, better players.

  75. gregor.samsa

    Hell, David Lee’s putting up almost 20 and 10, shooting 53% from the floor.

    Kikuchiyo:
    FWIW, Knuggets got 58 points and 16 rebounds from Gallinari, Moz, and Al Harrington tonight. 21 for 32 shooting.

    I know, it’s meaningless to add it like that. But it does sting.

  76. Jake S.

    Thomas B.: Fair enough. Historically many 6th seeds have won titles.

    No one is saying that they were anything resembling a contender before the trade (see my comment at #111), but you have to admit that short of some kind of miraculous turnaround, this trade was a mistake.

  77. Thomas B.

    Lets say we didnt trade for Melo, who is running the point for NY right now? Denver has a very good point to run the show. The Knicks have no point now and no point when we made the trade. AND our shoot guard situation would still not be great.

    The problem is not Melo. The problem is bad drafting and an awful trade for McGrady that kept this team from stocking young talent. So when the Melo trade did happen, the team was damn near thread bare. They still are.

  78. ruruland

    I told you this was going to happen. Keep it up guys I’ll be sure to post your comments at the appropriate time, and I’ll be just as incessant.

  79. arro

    If you see Oklahoma play, you know we will NEVER be champions with this team. Not even if everyone excels and the team actually starts playing as one.

    It just sucks that we are again stuck with a loaded roster of LJ’s and co. This time last year I was ecstatic about the team !!!!

  80. Jake S.

    Can someone describe the post-buzzer atmosphere? Booing? Fire D’Antoni chants? I’m in the dark here.

  81. ruruland

    Thomas B.: Lets say we didnt trade for Melo, who is running the point for NY right now? Denver has a very good point to run the show. The Knicks have no point now and no point when we made the trade. AND our shoot guard situation would still not be great. The problem is not Melo. The problem is bad drafting and an awful trade for McGrady that kept this team from stocking young talent. So when the Melo trade did happen, the team was damn near thread bare. They still are.

    This is all Melo’s fault. let’s organize a headhunt.

  82. bobneptune

    Jake S.: More about the four players they lost to get him.

    please don’t forget also anthony randolph, 2-#2 draft choices in 2013, the knicks #1 draft choice in 2014 and the ability for denver to swap the knick’s #1 pick in 2016 !

    some poker player that jimmy d is!

  83. JK47

    The pre-Melo Knicks still had Amar’e Stoudemire on a max contract, so I’m sad to say that team probably wasn’t gonna win a whole lot either. Let’s face it, we were boned the minute LeBron went to Miami. I hate the NBA.

  84. gregor.samsa

    Thomas B.:
    Lets say we didnt trade for Melo, who is running the point for NY right now? Denver has a very good point to run the show. The Knicks have no point now and no point when we made the trade. AND our shoot guard situation would still not be great.

    The problem is not Melo. The problem is bad drafting and an awful trade for McGrady that kept this team from stocking young talent. So when the Melo trade did happen, the team was damn near thread bare.They still are.

    Raymond Felton sounds great right about now at PG, considering that everyone’s sitting around praying that Baron Davis comes back and plays as well as Felton did before he left.

  85. Jake S.

    Thomas B.:
    Lets say we didnt trade for Melo, who is running the point for NY right now? Denver has a very good point to run the show. The Knicks have no point now and no point when we made the trade. AND our shoot guard situation would still not be great.

    How about the thoroughly competent Raymond Felton? They had inked him to an inexpensive two year contract with a team option for a third.

    The problem is not Melo. The problem is bad drafting and an awful trade for McGrady that kept this team from stocking young talent. So when the Melo trade did happen, the team was damn near thread bare.They still are.

  86. art vandelay

    I wish the lockout had lasted the entire season now in retrospect…and we had gone directly into free agency 2012…maybe we would have been better off structurally..ended up with cp3…..no idea…but it couldn’t have been worse than this!

  87. ruruland

    arro: If you see Oklahoma play, you know we will NEVER be champions with this team. Not even if everyone excels and the team actually starts playing as one.It just sucks that we are again stuck with a loaded roster of LJ’s and co. This time last year I was ecstatic about the team !!!!

    OKC would be just as bad if you switched back-courts, probably worse.

    Thanks for your insight though.

  88. Jake S.

    meant this: How about the thoroughly competent Raymond Felton? They had inked him to an inexpensive two year contract with a team option for a third.

  89. bobneptune

    ess-dog:
    Melo’s just pushing people out there now.Classy.

    the coward got himself ejected in a pussy way so he didn’t have to hear the cat-calls coming down from the rafters atbthe buzzer.

  90. Thomas B.

    It was a fool’s errand to give up so much to move Jeffries chasing the fantasy that LBJ would come here. They drafted a stiff in Jordan Hill when they could have drafted the point that is running the show in Denver. Of the four players that Denver got for Melo, how many of them are helping Denver right now? So this four players crap makes no sense to me.

  91. ruruland

    bobneptune: the coward got himself ejected in a pussy way so he didn’t have to hear the cat-calls coming down from the rafters atbthe buzzer.

    I’m sure it had nothing to do with being frustrated by his and his team’s performance. No, he’s a coward and a pussy, oh, and an idiot, let’s see selfish, lazy, greedy… what am I missing?

  92. bobneptune

    Thomas B.: Is this specultion or fact? Were the Knicks in a playoff spot when the trade happened?

    they were 2 games over .500 with all the distraction of the year long melo drama

  93. xduckshoex

    Thomas B.: Fair enough. Historically many 6th seeds have won titles.

    I think a 6th seed has a better chance than a lottery team, but I may be wrong about that.

  94. Thomas B.

    Jake S.:
    meant this: How about the thoroughly competent Raymond Felton? They had inked him to an inexpensive two year contract with a team option for a third.

    Yes I know. Who was happy with him? You could have had a cheaper are more competent player in Felton if DOnnie could draft worth a damn. Is there anyone he drafted that is playing well for the Knicks?

  95. ruruland

    xduckshoex: Melo got himself ejected so he could post here under the name “ruruland”.

    yeah, ok. I’ll remember my pitch-fork and silken rope next time I post on this board.

    Kill Melo

    better?

  96. Jake S.

    Thomas B.: Yes I know. Who was happy with him?You could have had a cheaper are more competent player in Felton if DOnnie could draft worth a damn. Is there anyone he drafted that is playing well for the Knicks?

    Two separate truths co-existing here. The Knicks have drafted poorly for the past decade AND they made a lousy trade for Melo, a good but flawed player.

  97. Thomas B.

    Jake S.: Two separate truths co-existing here. The Knicks have drafted poorly for the past decade AND they made a lousy trade for Melo, a good but flawed player.

    Exactly. So people should NOT put it all on Melo. The entire product is a total fluster cluck. One player does not make a good team this bad. He might make a good team struggle, but he wont make them awful.

  98. ruruland

    Jake S.: Two separate truths co-existing here. The Knicks have drafted poorly for the past decade AND they made a lousy trade for Melo, a good but flawed player.

    Every1 knos the Knicks gave up too much. But for as obvious as that is it should be even more obvious that no team is going to have success on offense if you don’t have competent ball-handling guards, and you don’t have guards who can make open jump shots.

    No offense will ever have any success without at least one of those ingredients.

    You can’t blame the Melo trade on not having even D_league level guard play on offense, just as you can’t blame Melo or Stat for this multiplying, compounding issues it creates in trying to put the ball through the hoop.

    Now back to your regularly shceduled programming

  99. bobneptune

    ruruland: I’m sure it had nothing to do with being frustrated by his and his team’s performance. No, he’s a coward and a pussy, oh, and an idiot, let’s see selfish, lazy, greedy… what am I missing?

    frustrated by his “team’s performance”???

    wasn’t that crisp 11-26 he chucked up there tonight on par with his previous inane chuck-fests???

  100. Jake S.

    Thomas B.: Exactly. So people should NOT put it all on Melo. The entire product is a total fluster cluck. One player does not make a good team this bad. He might make a good team struggle, but he wont make them awful.

    I’m not laying this all on Melo, so cool it with the venom. My point, from the beginning (of time, it feels like these days), is essentially the same as yours: they don’t have enough basketball players. That’s really what made the Melo trade so hard to swallow, not his individual flaws.

  101. ruruland

    Thomas B.: Exactly. So people should NOT put it all on Melo. The entire product is a total fluster cluck. One player does not make a good team this bad. He might make a good team struggle, but he wont make them awful.

    The Knicks are a lot worse on offense with Melo off the floor. Melo has not been very efficient scoring the ball this year. Can someone please explain to me how any sane person would even come close to suggesting that Melo is taking a good team and making it worse.

  102. JK47

    Yeah, we would have been awesome with Felton, who has been absolutely terrible this year and for most of his career.

  103. arro

    Actually one player can make a team bad. A team is … “a group of people who have been chosen to work together to do a particular job”

    We actually had a team 12 months ago. Today we just have a bunch of over paid players.

  104. ruruland

    bobneptune: frustrated by his “team’s performance”???wasn’t that crisp 11-26 he chucked up there tonight on par with his previous inane chuck-fests???

    please tell me what you think Melo should be doing on the court right now…

  105. xduckshoex

    Thomas B.: Exactly. So people should NOT put it all on Melo. The entire product is a total fluster cluck. One player does not make a good team this bad. He might make a good team struggle, but he wont make them awful.

    You’re kind of right, but Melo personally torpedoed the Knicks trade leverage by saying he might re-sign in Denver a couple of weeks before he was traded.

    But why are we talking about the draft? Gallo was a good pick. Fields was a good pick. Douglas was a good pick for where he was taken. Shump was a good pick, and Harrellson looks like a good pick too. Why is the draft being made out to be the problem here?

  106. xduckshoex

    ruruland: The Knicks are a lot worse on offense with Melo off the floor. Melo has not been very efficient scoring the ball this year. Can someone please explain to me how any sane person would even come close to suggesting that Melo is taking a good team and making it worse.

    The benefits of ball movement have been explained to you more than once. If you don’t get it, you don’t get it.

  107. ruruland

    arro: Actually one player can make a team bad. A team is … “a group of people who have been chosen to work together to do a particular job”We actually had a team 12 months ago. Today we just have a bunch of over paid players.

    give me one backcourt in the NBA that’s worse (or has been worse). You can choose any year since the merger.

    Once you make a selection or two, given that it’s reasonable, post their team offensive rating.
    thanks

  108. ruruland

    xduckshoex: The benefits of ball movement have been explained to you more than once. If you don’t get it, you don’t get it.

    Why are the Knicks significantly worse with Melo off the floor this year, and last year?

  109. airchibundo507

    Melo is a ballstopper. So is Kobe. What’s the difference between them? Kobe isn’t surrounded by DLeaguers, and the Knicks have no discernible offense. Compound that with the lack of shooters, depth and spacing. Those extenuating circumstances partially excuse Melo.

    Melo is the only legitimate scoring option on this team right now, and a bad Melo shot is usually our best shot.

  110. ruruland

    xduckshoex: The benefits of ball movement have been explained to you more than once. If you don’t get it, you don’t get it.

    moreover, how do you create good ball movement when you have, at most, two competent offensive players on the court at once, no ballhandling, shooting or playmaking threats at guard (playing more than a few minutes a game–Bibby)

  111. airchibundo507

    I blame this mostly on D’Antoni. He is more than content with iso, and Melo has no choice but to chuck.

    Isolation ball isn’t ineffective in itself; it just requires spacing and reliable shooters. All we have is Harrelson.

  112. bobneptune

    ruruland: Every1 knos the Knicks gave up too much. But for as obvious as that is it should be even more obvious that no team is going to have success on offense if you don’t have competent ball-handling guards, and you don’t have guards who can make open jump shots.

    and why don’t we have an nba caliber point guard??? because melo had to get “his” money and jimmy d had to raise his ticket prices and that mix allowed denver to force the expansion of the melo trade to include a dump of all the crap off the denver roster and the rape of the knick roster.

    that’s why we don’t have a point guard that was compatible with amar’e . he went to denver for no good reason.

    you don’t have perimeter shooting (gallo and w.chandler) for the same reason.

    you don’t have a back up center for the same reason.

    you don’t have 2-second round draft choices in 2013 for the same reason

    you don’t have a 2014 #1 choice for the same reason.

    and you very well may be swapping #1 picks in 2016 for the very same reason

  113. ruruland

    airchibundo507: I blame this mostly on D’Antoni. He is more than content with iso, and Melo has no choice but to chuck.Isolation ball isn’t ineffective in itself; it just requires spacing and reliable shooters. All we have is Harrelson.

    I hear that but you can’t run any kind of offense without an NBA caliber guard.

  114. xduckshoex

    ruruland: Why are the Knicks significantly worse with Melo off the floor this year, and last year?

    See, this is where you lose me.

    You use +/- as proof that Melo is doing a great job.

    Then you talk about how terrible the Knicks backcourt is.

    Unfortunately, Landry Fields has the best +/- on the entire team, so if you’re going to use that as proof that Melo is a crucial cog in this team who is beyond criticism, Landry Fields has been the best player on the Knicks to date so their backcourt is an asset.

    Regardless, you’re asking a loaded question. How the Knicks play in the 10 minutes per game Melo is not on the court in an individual game is not necessarily how the Knicks would play in a full season without him.

  115. arro

    ruruland: give me one backcourt in the NBA that’s worse (or has been worse). You can choose any year since the merger.

    Once you make a selection or two, given that it’s reasonable, post their team offensive rating.
    thanks

    I cant see what your fishing for here …. give you what of what ? Im simply saying that trading Gallo, Moz, Chandler and felton made the team weaker.

    Last 12 months prove it. I dont care if we dont have a PG or not, my point is simply before trade we had what $30M cap. Now we have what $2M and a shitty team. How great is that ?

    At least a year ago we had potential, now we suck, and we suck bad. The offense is singular and relies too much on Melo. The defense is non hustling and stale. Overall the team looks nothing like one. Its just frustrating to watch, and I think it would be more exciting to whatch paint dry, count snow flakes or just sleep.

    This team just sucks. Emphasis again on TEAM.

  116. ruruland

    bobneptune: and why don’t we have an nba caliber point guard??? because melo had to get “his” money and jimmy d had to raise his ticket prices and that mix allowed denver to force the expansion of the melo trade to include a dump of all the crap off the denver roster and the rape of the knick roster.that’s why we don’t have a point guard that was compatible with amar’e . he went to denver for no good reason.you don’t have perimeter shooting (gallo and w.chandler) for the same reason.you don’t have a back up center for the same reason.you don’t have 2-second round draft choices in 2013 for the same reasonyou don’t have a 2014 #1 choice for the same reason.and you very well may be swapping #1 picks in 2016 for the very same reason

    melo did what any reasonable person in the free market would do. You believe in capitalism, right?

    The Knicks could have kept Gallo instead of Fields. Gallo would help spread the floor quite a bit. Wilson Chandler is playing in CHina.

    There was not a large enough sample on Douglas to know what he was……

    Dolan gave up too much, everyone knows that. but even this kind of top-heavy payroll shouldn’t preclude you from having NBA caliber guards.

    Baron Davis and JR Smith, capable professional basketball players, would make an almost unquantifiable difference.

  117. xduckshoex

    airchibundo507:
    Melo is the only legitimate scoring option on this team right now, and a bad Melo shot is usually our best shot.

    Melo’s field goal percentage is lower than the rest of the teams field goal percentage. That’s why I don’t buy the “a bad Melo shot is the best option” stuff.

    Also, the difference between Melo and Kobe is the fact that Kobe is a much better overall player.

  118. bobneptune

    airchibundo507:
    Melo is a ballstopper. So is Kobe. What’s the difference between them? Kobe isn’t surrounded by DLeaguers, and the Knicks have no discernible offense. Compound that with the lack of shooters, depth and spacing. Those extenuating circumstances partially excuse Melo.

    it doesn’t excuse melo in my mind because his avarice is the reason there are no point guards , no shooters and no future draft choices.

    the reason there are no complimentary players is all the complimentary (gallo, w.chandler, felton. mozgov. a randolph and 4 future picks) players unnecessarily went bye- bye.

    but melo got his money plus the green light to heave them up from all angles at any moment. all melo sees is this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5TwT69i1lU

  119. ruruland

    arro: I cant see what your fishing for here …. give you what of what ? Im simply saying that trading Gallo, Moz, Chandler and felton made the team weaker. Last 12 months prove it. I dont care if we dont have a PG or not, my point is simply before trade we had what $30M cap. Now we have what $2M and a shitty team. How great is that ?At least a year ago we had potential, now we suck, and we suck bad. The offense is singular and relies too much on Melo. The defense is non hustling and stale. Overall the team looks nothing like one. Its just frustrating to watch, and I think it would be more exciting to whatch paint dry, count snow flakes or just sleep.This team just sucks. Emphasis again on TEAM.

    Understand, but look at how you’re changing your argument.

    My challenge was pretty straight forward. If you think it’s currently impossible for the Knicks to at some point in the next year acquire or activate NBA-caliber guards then maybe you should just switch teams.

    or you can organize an abduction and kidnapping.I’m sure you’ll have plenty who’ll join you.

  120. airchibundo507

    xduckshoex: Melo’s field goal percentage is lower than the rest of the teams field goal percentage.That’s why I don’t buy the “a bad Melo shot is the best option” stuff.

    Also, the difference between Melo and Kobe is the fact that Kobe is a much better overall player.

    where is this BS coming from?

    coming into tonight Melo was shooting 41.1% from the field. The Knicks, 41.3%.

    Amare = 40.8%
    Shumpert = 39.2%
    Douglas = 32.5%
    Fields = 43.0%
    etc

    besides Melo everyone else on the roster is an opportunistic scorer, proves my point

  121. ruruland

    xduckshoex: Melo’s field goal percentage is lower than the rest of the teams field goal percentage. That’s why I don’t buy the “a bad Melo shot is the best option” stuff.Also, the difference between Melo and Kobe is the fact that Kobe is a much better overall player.

    right, and I’m sure you believe this is the norm and will continue indefinitely. Now can you answer me why the Knicks are significantly more dreadful with Melo off the floor on offense, you know, when the team has a chance to play like a team with great ball movement?

    Don’t be a coward like Melo.

  122. Jake S.

    Open question: What kind of time table are we looking at before the Knicks tear this thing down? Things will improve (I think?), but it’s clear that like the squad before it, this team has a definite ceiling–one that’s at least two rounds from a championship caliber team. Do we need to go through this song and dance for two more years before we begin rebuilding?

  123. Owen

    Ruruland – It doesn’t matter who the Knicks have playing point guard. That’s not the problem.

    Take a look at Kobe Bryant’s TS% numbers. Do they look like they fluctuate wildly depending on what guard he was playing with? Smush Parker anyone?

  124. xduckshoex

    airchibundo507: where is this BS coming from?

    coming into tonight Melo was shooting 41.1% from the field. The Knicks, 41.3%.

    Amare = 40.8%
    Shumpert = 39.2%
    Douglas = 32.5%
    Fields = 43.0%
    etc

    besides Melo everyone else on the roster is an opportunistic scorer, proves my point

    Before the game, Melo and the Knicks were both shooting 41% from the floor.

    The Knicks as a team shot better than Melo as an individual tonight.

    This puts Melo’s individual field goal percentage below the rest of the team.

  125. xduckshoex

    Actually, my bad. It looks like Melo hit a few shots to bring his percentage up.

    Still doesn’t really change the overall point, Melo is not some ultra-efficient scorer who can ignore his teammates. He’s on their level. People need to stop pretending that he’s not.

  126. ruruland

    xduckshoex: See, this is where you lose me.You use +/- as proof that Melo is doing a great job.Then you talk about how terrible the Knicks backcourt is.Unfortunately, Landry Fields has the best +/- on the entire team, so if you’re going to use that as proof that Melo is a crucial cog in this team who is beyond criticism, Landry Fields has been the best player on the Knicks to date so their backcourt is an asset.Regardless, you’re asking a loaded question. How the Knicks play in the 10 minutes per game Melo is not on the court in an individual game is not necessarily how the Knicks would play in a full season without him.

    I’m not saying “Melo is doing a great job.”

    I’m saying if your argument is that the reason the Knicks offense is struggling is because of Melo’s style of play, then it must logically follow that the Knicks would play better with Melo off the floor, when the ball movement has a chance to shine (presumably).

    And if you’re saying that the 250+ minutes Melo has been of the floor is not a big-enough sample, than neither is the 500 minutes he’s been on it.

  127. xduckshoex

    ruruland: right, and I’m sure you believe this is the norm and will continue indefinitely. Now can you answer me why the Knicks are significantly more dreadful with Melo off the floor on offense, you know, when the team has a chance to play like a team with great ball movement?

    Don’t be a coward like Melo.

    I already responded. Maybe you should read more carefully before you throw out insults.

  128. Jake S.

    xduckshoex:
    Actually, my bad.It looks like Melo hit a few shots to bring his percentage up.

    Still doesn’t really change the overall point, Melo is not some ultra-efficient scorer who can ignore his teammates.He’s on their level.People need to stop pretending that he’s not.

    OK, Carmelo Anthony is not on Toney Douglas’ level.

  129. nicos

    Melo does get to the line a ton and his turnover rate is lower than the team average so other than Chandler he really is their best option. That doesn’t excuse some of his shot selection.

  130. xduckshoex

    ruruland: I’m not saying “Melo is doing a great job.”

    I’m saying if your argument is that the reason the Knicks offense is struggling is because of Melo’s style of play, then it must logically follow that the Knicks would play better with Melo off the floor, when the ball movement has a chance to shine (presumably).

    And if you’re saying that the 250+ minutes Melo has been of the floor is not a big-enough sample, than neither is the 500 minutes he’s been on it.

    Who said anything about there being only ONE reason that the Knicks offense is struggling? Nobody has said that. You’re over-simplifying things so you can spin them in a pro-Melo manner again.

    Melo is not the only issue the Knicks have to contend with, that doesn’t mean that he’s not a problem and is above criticism.

  131. xduckshoex

    Jake S.: OK, Carmelo Anthony is not on Toney Douglas’ level.

    If Melo has a 40% chance of making a shot and the rest of the Knicks as a team have a 40% chance of making a shot, is Melo shooting clearly the teams best option?

    It’s not.

    I’m not saying he’s not their best player or anything, but this idea that he is somehow miles ahead of everybody else in terms of efficiency is simply not true. And, as has been repeated here over and over again, believing that requires ignoring how efficient everyone on this roster has been in the past. These guys can put the ball in the basket, they’ve proven that in years past.

  132. ruruland

    xduckshoex: Actually, my bad. It looks like Melo hit a few shots to bring his percentage up.Still doesn’t really change the overall point, Melo is not some ultra-efficient scorer who can ignore his teammates. He’s on their level. People need to stop pretending that he’s not.

    Melo leads the team in assists. He has by far the highest TS% of any guard/wing on the team, and he’s slumping bad (or in your world he’s been extremely luck I have no idea).

    Would you like Melo to defer more to teammates? What evidence do you have that the Knicks would be anymore succesfull if Melo deferred any more than he currently is? Are there magical playmaking and shooting powers that have fallen victim to the black-hole?

  133. ruruland

    xduckshoex: Actually, my bad. It looks like Melo hit a few shots to bring his percentage up.Still doesn’t really change the overall point, Melo is not some ultra-efficient scorer who can ignore his teammates. He’s on their level. People need to stop pretending that he’s not.

    Melo leads the team in assists. He has by far the highest TS% of any guard/wing on the team, and he’s slumping bad (or in your world he’s been extremely luck I have no idea).

    Would you like Melo to defer more to teammates? What evidence do you have that the Knicks would be anymore succesfull if Melo deferred any more than he currently is? Are there magical playmaking and shooting powers that have fallen victim to the black-hole?

    Moreover, Melo has a very high assist rate among wings and scoring 4′s (non-Lebrons), despite having the worst supporting offensive players in the league. Is it not concievable, perhaps probable, that if Melo had just close to average shooters around him he’d be averaging in advance of 5 assists a game?

    Does he need to average 6, 7, more than Lebron? What evidence is there that he’s not passing enough?

  134. ruruland

    xduckshoex: If Melo has a 40% chance of making a shot and the rest of the Knicks as a team have a 40% chance of making a shot, is Melo shooting clearly the teams best option?It’s not.I’m not saying he’s not their best player or anything, but this idea that he is somehow miles ahead of everybody else in terms of efficiency is simply not true. And, as has been repeated here over and over again, believing that requires ignoring how efficient everyone on this roster has been in the past. These guys can put the ball in the basket, they’ve proven that in years past.

    So you believe that Melo’s mindset should be to just keep passing, not worrying about the results because we all know Douglas, Fields, Shumpert, Jorts are going to start making shots– I mean their career numbers are far too overwhelming to believe otherwise.

    And we all know that Melo, being the career 40% shooter that he is, isn’t going to improve much either.

    So, the thought process should be clear: defer to the time-tested supporting cast and get out of the way of the offense so it can function properly.

  135. ruruland

    nicos: Melo does get to the line a ton and his turnover rate is lower than the team average so other than Chandler he really is their best option. That doesn’t excuse some of his shot selection.

    Chandler is an offensive option?

  136. hoolahoop

    Melo-bury is a very very stupid player. His ball stopping is horrendous. His shot selection is awful. He doesn’t play well with other players. He demands the ball. He makes everyone around him worse. And he’s very selfish.
    The shame is if he had a high basketball IQ he’d be one of the best players ever.
    Every announcer, from Clyde to Bernard King to opposing team announcers, during the game politely denounce his ball stopping, one-on-one style.
    Great talent wasted.

  137. xduckshoex

    @188 – Melo has above average shooters around him, at least they’ve been average or above average in their NBA careers before this season. Do you think that professional basketball players in their mid-20′s just forgot how to shoot? Or could there be another reason for them falling off, perhaps an offense that is out of rhythm because it is heavily reliant on isolations instead of ball movement? It makes perfect sense to pretty much everybody but you.

    And it’s not about “deferring to his teammates”. That means that there are two kinds of players: ones who dominate and ones who are subservient to the dominant player. Why can’t they all just play together, and have whoever gets the best shot be the one who takes it? Anyone who has played basketball probably realizes that this ends up being the best player anyway.

    Melo waves off screeners or calls for the ball on the wing so he can take his defender one on one. He does this all the time and it’s a huge part of the reason the Knicks offense is so bad, this is an inarguable fact. Melo produces 0.9 points per possession; when he takes a shot out of an iso, he produces 0.68 points per possession and only makes the shot 29% of the time. The Knicks as a whole produce 0.86 points per possession(right on par with Melo) but as a team they produce 0.67 points per possession in isolation(again, right on par with Melo) See, this is the whole problem: what he chooses to do often is not something he does well. It drags down his efficiency and ruins the rhythm of the team because they are not involved in the play on any level.

  138. hoolahoop

    ruruland: So you believe that Melo’s mindset should be to just keep passing, not worrying about the results because we all know Douglas, Fields, Shumpert, Jorts are going to start making shots– I mean their career numbers are far too overwhelming to believe otherwise.

    And we all know that Melo, being the career 40% shooter that he is, isn’t going to improve much either.

    So, the thought process should be clear: defer to the time-tested supporting cast and get out of the way of the offense so it can function properly.

    If he was as great as you think he is he would use his talent to get his teammates easy baskets (not 3′s). But i guess it’s not so much fun for him if he’s not one of the scoring leaders. That’s what I think it’s about for him. Not winning, but being a scoring leader.

  139. xduckshoex

    hoolahoop: If he was as great as you think he is he would use his talent to get his teammates easy baskets (not 3?s). But i guess it’s not so much fun for him if he’s not one of the scoring leaders. That’s what I think it’s about for him. Not winning, but being a scoring leader.

    I don’t think it’s quite that bad, I just don’t think Melo has really been in this position before and doesn’t quite understand what is going on, which isn’t his fault because people have probably been gassing him up since he was 10 years old. Until now his talent was enough; he probably won a ton in high school, won a title at Syracuse and his Nuggets teams were pretty good(though they were probably more talented than he realized)

    Now, as a 28 year old man, doing what he has always done(isolations, going one on four, etc.) isn’t getting it done. We think we can see why, but we don’t have 18 years of conditioning telling us that his talent is good enough to win out at the end of the day like he does. I think he’s going through something similar(but still very different) to what Lebron went through in Cleveland when he fell short those last two years. Lebron swallowed his pride and sought help like a grown man should in that situation, I hope Melo can swallow his pride/break his conditioning and do the same. The numbers make it pretty clear that his teammates can help him get better looks if he uses them properly.

  140. Z-man

    Owen: Ruruland – It doesn’t matter who the Knicks have playing point guard. That’s not the problem. Take a look at Kobe Bryant’s TS% numbers. Do they look like they fluctuate wildly depending on what guard he was playing with? Smush Parker anyone?

    Uh, Kobe IS a guard.

  141. Z

    I wonder if Ruruland spends his non Knickerblogger internet time defending Newt Gingrich at the Huffington Post?

  142. Thomas B.

    Jake S.: I’m not laying this all on Melo, so cool it with the venom. My point, from the beginning (of time, it feels like these days), is essentially the same as yours: they don’t have enough basketball players. That’s really what made the Melo trade so hard to swallow, not his individual flaws.

    If you think this is my “venom”, you don’t know me very well.

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