Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, October 21, 2014

397 comments on “2012 Game Thread: Knicks v. Raptors

  1. jon abbey

    the record for most turnovers by a player in a game is 14 by Jason Kidd, Lin looks like he may make a run at that tonight.

  2. KnickInSeattle

    Surely Toronto will come back down to earth.
    They’re fired up to play/beat us due to the hype, but they ought to fall off enough for us to make it closer before losing.

  3. dogrufus

    Honestly, the conventional wisdom was so fucking unanimous that Amar’e and Lin were going to make beautiful music, it was pretty much inevitable they’d just fall apart before our eyes.

    Lin’s invincibility potion seems to have worn off. I semi-regretted all those highs, because I knew this comedown would be hard.

  4. Degree_Absolute

    jon abbey:
    the record for most turnovers by a player in a game is 14 by Jason Kidd, Lin looks like he may make a run at that tonight.

    hmmmm, maybe your expectations were unreasonable?

  5. rururuland2

    dogrufus: Honestly, the conventional wisdom was so fucking unanimous that Amar’e and Lin were going to make beautiful music, it was pretty much inevitable they’d just fall apart before our eyes.Lin’s invincibility potion seems to have worn off. I semi-regretted all those highs, because I knew this comedown would be hard.

    Dude, they’ve played 10 minutes together.

  6. rururuland2

    Will the Thrill: Well, I should say, how can Shumpert be so bad at scoring

    He was a great dunker in college. He’s missed a few dunks this year. Guy with 6’10” wingspand and 42 inch vert shouldn’t miss relatively easy dunks.

  7. John R.

    Bill Walker needs to go back to Planet Boston and we have to pick things up somehow… As Doris Burke always reminds us- Where is our spark of the game?

    Regardless the T-Wolves deficit didn’t look optimal either. In fact the situation was probably worse.

  8. er

    Lmao @ the knick radio announcers saying that Toronto has an Asian-American population of 11%. Hahahahahahaha

  9. JK47

    How many good games has Amar’e had this year? Like one or two maybe? No more excuses for this guy. He can’t play with Melo, he can’t play with Chandler, he can’t play without a point guard… He has been just horrendous all season long.

  10. John R.

    er: Lmao @ the knick radio announcers saying that Toronto has an Asian-American population of 11%. Hahahahahahaha

    Yeah theres like ca. 580,000

  11. anubav

    Surprisingly, perhaps, the best thing about Lin’s game at the moment is his outside shot. He’s really been stroking it over the last few games.

  12. rururuland2

    JK47: How many good games has Amar’e had this year? Like one or two maybe? No more excuses for this guy. He can’t play with Melo, he can’t play with Chandler, he can’t play without a point guard… He has been just horrendous all season long.

    Linas Klieza is a really bad defender, always has been.

    Amar’e should be eating him alive, just coming back or not.

  13. Degree_Absolute

    Goddamnit, Landry can’t even shoot a free throw anymore. What did the Knicks coaching staff do to him?

  14. Nick C.

    Not the finest of halves so far. Too many baskets at the basket by Toronto (sorry for the horrible phrasing).

  15. rururuland2

    They are asking Lin to do too much right now. He’s not beating his defender nearly as often as he was previously, and guards are pressuring him further out than before.

  16. John R.

    Why was the assumption made that the combination of Lin and Stoudemire would be bread and butter? We all assumed it true, and while it still may play out that way- why do we have to be tormented by the Toronto Raptors? Why? Can this team not escape the depths of being mediocre pretenders with Players of the Year and, count them, three all stars? Against the Raptors!

  17. rururuland2

    John R.: Why was the assumption made that the combination of Lin and Stoudemire would be bread and butter? We all assumed it true, and while it still may play out that way- why do we have to be tormented by the Toronto Raptors? Why? Can this team not escape the depths of being mediocre pretenders with Players of the Year and, count them, three all stars? Against the Raptors!

    Want to give it more than a half?

  18. Degree_Absolute

    rururuland2:
    They are asking Lin to do too much right now. He’s not beating his defender nearly as often as he was previously, and guards are pressuring him further out than before.

    Agreed. Lin and Chandler are the only Knicks shooting above 33% and Chandler has been in foul trouble for the entire first half. I have not been a defender of Melo, but the criticism of Lin thus far reminds me a lot of what Melo was taking when he was the primary facilitator. People need to hit fucking shots. Come on!

  19. ess-dog

    Lin and Amare have to develop a “rapport” before the pnr really starts to work. That just takes practice/experimenting. They both have the requisite talents, so it should happen.

    John R.:
    Why was the assumption made that the combination of Lin and Stoudemire would be bread and butter? We all assumed it true, and while it still may play out that way- why do we have to be tormented by the Toronto Raptors? Why? Can this team not escape the depths of being mediocre pretenders with Players of the Year and, count them, three all stars? Against the Raptors!

  20. rururuland2

    My biggest concern is that Lin is not beating Jose Calderon, one of the slowest lateral movement guards in the game.

    Maybe it’s dead legs. Maybe it’s the ankle. Maybe he’s not as quick as he looked before.

  21. JK47

    @66

    That’s a good point, ess-dog. It did take a while for the Felton/Amar’e PnR to start percolating (in Clyde’s words) so I’m going to be more patient with our overpaid PF for now. But it would be great if he could start showing something soon. I can’t take much more of watching him suck.

  22. llcoolbp

    DRed:
    Put in Balkman!I mean, why not?

    I was saying the exact same thing about Lin. Dantoni is so freaking stubborn. Walker is just garbage. Dantoni’s stubborness cost’s us games. It’s one thing to stick with Tony Douglas who showed last year he could be valuable. But walker is just pure garbage. Balkman needs to play over him.

  23. hoolahoop

    Notice how Lin is shying away from the ball? .. . and just dumping if off at the top of the key. Not holding his dribble, no PNR’s.

    Hope it was just a bad half.

  24. rururuland2

    ess-dog: Lin and Amare have to develop a “rapport” before the pnr really starts to work. That just takes practice/experimenting. They both have the requisite talents, so it should happen.

    Amar’e needs to set better screens and allow for larger passing windows.

  25. ess-dog

    Lin is again leading the team in minutes so far. I’m glad that D’Antoni likes him, but he shouldn’t literally “ride him like Secretariat.”

  26. llcoolbp

    Lin has a very weak left. He needs to exclusively work on that. It’s more important to him then his J. He needs to tie his right hand around his back and just walk around dribbling with his left ever waking hour. Frankly, why every basketbal player who is serious should be doing this. Just no excuse at this level, much less a point guard, to have a weak left hand.

  27. hoolahoop

    JK47:
    THIS GAME IS AN INDICTMENT ON MELO

    Oh wait, no it isn’t.

    Of course it is. If you can’t see that this is his fault you not be allowed to post here anymore.

  28. rururuland2

    hoolahoop: Notice how Lin is shying away from the ball? .. . and just dumping if off at the top of the key. Not holding his dribble, no PNR’s. Hope it was just a bad half.

    He’s not shying away from the ball, he’s dominated it more than Melo has in any half in his entire career.

    He’s a pg in an MDA offense without another playmaker on the floor.

    But he’s not getting a step on his defender, which is forcing him to have to stop his dribble when the help comes. That’s where the 5 turnovers have occured.

  29. Thomas B. Post author

    Well after the T-wolves game and one half of basketball in Toronto, I think one thing is clear. Lin is better with a little MSG.

  30. JK47

    I really hope we sign JR Smith. We need as many people as possible who are actually decent at basketball.

  31. ess-dog

    That is Amare’s style to leave the pick early (a confusion tactic) and sprint to the basket. I think it could be an effective combo alongside Chandler’s hard picks.

    rururuland2: Amar’e needs to set better screens and allow for larger passing windows.

  32. Bruno Almeida

    the problem has clearly been spacing… with Amare, Chandler, Fields and Walker, none of which can really shoot from the outside, the Raptors can crowd the paint and hedge hard on any pnr attempt by Lin.

    we need more Novak together with Amare and Chandler, not as a backup 4.

  33. jkhar

    I’m not sure what is worse right now Bill walker’s overall play, or Landry Fields Free throw shooting. Hoping to see more Novakaine in the second half.

  34. KnicksFanInVA

    Novak needs to start over Walker in the second half. This Walker obsession with MDA is getting creepy.

  35. hoolahoop

    JK47:
    THIS GAME IS AN INDICTMENT ON MELO

    Oh wait, no it isn’t.

    Of course it is. If you can’t see that this is his fault you not be allowed to post here anymore.

    Obviously, just kidding.
    But, seriously, you have no understanding of the game, and really should not be allowed to post anymore.

  36. Degree_Absolute

    jon abbey: hmmmm, maybe your expectations were unreasonable? :)

    Perhaps. He only shot 68% from the line in college with 432 attempts. Last year he shot 78% in 147 attempts. Regression is frustrating :)

  37. KnickInSeattle

    Maybe the ankle is slowing him down a bit?
    Everyone else bricking shots like they’re trying to make Walker look good isn’t helping either.

  38. Z-man

    Lin has a fundamental flaw…he is much weaker going to his left and can’t finish at all with his left hand under pressure. The Raptors are forcing him left and then as soon as he goes that way they are rushing a defender at him. Let’s see if he can adjust in the second half. In a larger sense, that’s probably something he needs to address during the off-season. If he can’t, forget about him being anything close to the next Nash or Stockton.

    Still, he is light years ahead of Douglas or Bibby.

  39. hoolahoop

    rururuland2: He’s not shying away from the ball, he’s dominated it more than Melo has in any half in his entire career.

    He’s a pg in an MDA offense without another playmaker on the floor.

    But he’s not getting a step on his defender, which is forcing him to have to stop his dribble when the help comes. That’s where the 5 turnovers have occured.

    I’m convinced. You’re blind.

  40. rururuland2

    ess-dog: That is Amare’s style to leave the pick early (a confusion tactic) and sprint to the basket. I think it could be an effective combo alongside Chandler’s hard picks.

    I understand he likes to slip screens. But it takes a really good point guard to find him when that’s all he does.

    He’s an unbelievable finisher in the PnR but doesn’t help his guard much.

    Melo and Lin have had a lot more success with Chandler in the PnR because he actually sets a screen.

  41. anubav

    Lin is really great at taking sharp angles off the screen and creating separation, but Amar’e needs to hold the picks longer to give him the chance to turn the corner. He’s diving to the basket way too quickly. With Chandler as the roll man, there was some wiggle room; since he’s so tall, Lin can just throw the ball up and over the defender. With Amar’e, timing is going to be the key. They’ll figure it out, though.

  42. rururuland2

    hoolahoop: I’m convinced. You’re blind.

    My god. When Lin crosses the half-court line gives the ball up to another guard so that he can come off down screens, get the ball back and then PnR. I’m sure that’s what you’re referring to. That’s always been MDA’s offense.

    So, you have no idea what you’re talking about or looking at.

    9 shots, 6 assists, 5 turnovers, but most possessions have been in his hands.

  43. Z-man

    Also, how much longer are people going to be deluded into thinking that Landry Fields is anything but a below-average player. I guess he’s worth every penny we’re paying him, but not much more. Maybe he improves, but right now he just ain’t that good.

  44. art vandelay

    Could this Linsanity mania come back to screw us, kind of like the disadvantage we have discussed on this board at times of playing at MSG…I think teams like the raptors are going to come out before a full house fired up to beat the crap out of us due to all the Lin attention!!!

  45. anubav

    ess-dog:
    That is Amare’s style to leave the pick early (a confusion tactic) and sprint to the basket.I think it could be an effective combo alongside Chandler’s hard picks.

    My only concern is that while Lin has shown the ability to throw the lob pass to the roll man, he hasn’t been very successful with dump-offs and bounce passes in traffic.

  46. Z-man

    Finally, can Shump finish a dunk, please? That’s the one thing that I never guessed he’d have trouble with!

  47. JK47

    @85

    All right dude. Ignoring you from now on, and you can feel free to do the same. You add nothing of value here anyway.

  48. ess-dog

    We just have to stop turning it over. That’s when the Raptors get easy baskets.

    I think it’s a little premature to worry about Amare. He’s been out and our whole system has changed with Lin. It will take time to integrate Amare and Melo.

    Of course as I speak, Jeffries does his thing again on D.

  49. rururuland2

    hoolahoop: Of course it is. If you can’t see that this is his fault you not be allowed to post here anymore.Obviously, just kidding.But, seriously, you have no understanding of the game, and really should not be allowed to post anymore.

    Funny, but your comment that Lin was shying away from the ball by giving it up to initiate a motion set was one of the more ignorant things I’ve read on this board.

  50. Degree_Absolute

    I don’t understand. What has earned Walker 16 minutes? His 3 Pfs, his 2 TOs, or his 1/5 from the field (0-4 from three)?

  51. art vandelay

    raptors have 6 fouls in first 4 minutes of the quarter…we need to stay aggressive and try to chip away at the deficit by maybe getting to the line a bit.

  52. jon abbey

    now we have a little Lin to Stoudemire chemistry going.

    so is Toney Douglas just not available anymore? his story has been lost amidst Lin-silliness.

  53. Nick C.

    Lin finds Amare underneath. Jeez Calderon had 30 his last game and niece this. Lin is getting pinballed off all sorts of screens.

  54. Jake S.

    Jose Calderon makes my NBA all smug team. Jesus, has the guy ever been in the playoffs? Stop smirking.

  55. cgreene

    I was so much more worried about Amare’s D than his O. His defense is just pathetic. It’s mind boggling what a dumb defensive player he is.

  56. Mulligan

    Gah. Raptors making a few insane shots now. Our defense isn’t this horrible, they’ve gotta come back to earth right? Desperate 4th quarter comeback a la Minnesota? Or are we goners? Why has thou forsaklinme?!

  57. TheXman

    I guess we now know this team may be better without Amare and Melo, lol. We can trade them for just some people who can play D and make the open shot, that’s all we really need.

  58. Will the Thrill

    Amar’e has been god-awful all night, on both ends of the court. Don’t even know what to think about this team… It already has a totally different feel, and this is only with 1 “superstar” back.

  59. ess-dog

    Yeah him and Kleiza both bug the shit outta me.

    Jake S.:
    Jose Calderon makes my NBA all smug team. Jesus, has the guy ever been in the playoffs? Stop smirking.

  60. daJudge

    Tough start. Amare way off. Lin needs to keep his dribble a little more. IMO, we win this game and it will turn soon.

  61. BigBlueAL

    Fields is playing alot better but it still is hard to have a starting SG who plays as many minutes as Fields does be such a bad 3pt and FT shooter.

  62. John R.

    I would never think I would say this, but you put Jeffries in and immediately he draws a charge. Put Amare in, Lenis Kleiza hits a stepback fadeaway from the top of the key.

  63. rururuland2

    TheXman: I guess we now know this team may be better without Amare and Melo, lol. We can trade them for just some people who can play D and make the open shot, that’s all we really need.

    This is one of the reasons Knicks fans get a bad rap.

  64. rururuland2

    Will the Thrill: Amar’e has been god-awful all night, on both ends of the court. Don’t even know what to think about this team… It already has a totally different feel, and this is only with 1 “superstar” back.

    give it a rest, man, unless you’re joking of course.

  65. Mulligan

    I can’t stand listening to the raptor’s announcer? Who’s the a-hole who sounds like tommy heinsohn but WORSE? Your team is 9-20, pal. Three solid quarters and you’re talking like this isn’t some kind of fluke…

  66. DRed

    I know the board has generally been anti-Melo this year, but I’d much rather try to dump Amare on some other team. He’s been really awful, all season long.

  67. TheXman

    Amare just sit the 4th, get chandler in. Novak, shump and landry with lin to lead the charge please. At least they play D.

  68. rururuland2

    Mulligan: I can’t stand listening to the raptor’s announcer? Who’s the a-hole who sounds like tommy heinsohn but WORSE? Your team is 9-20, pal. Three solid quarters and you’re talking like this isn’t some kind of fluke…

    They’re bad, I agree.

    Knicks defense has been good all year.

  69. KnicksFanInVA

    Who will take him though?

    DRed:
    I know the board has generally been anti-Melo this year, but I’d much rather try to dump Amare on some other team.He’s been really awful, all season long.

  70. Nick C.

    Hmm. I know it’s old news but I never understand how the football carry (Barbosa) isn’t a travel.

  71. rururuland2

    DRed: I know the board has generally been anti-Melo this year, but I’d much rather try to dump Amare on some other team. He’s been really awful, all season long.

    You want to give him more than 20 minutes playing with an NBA point guard?

    You see the last two possessions he was involved with Lin?

    You can’t be serious.

  72. rururuland2

    Lin has been amazing this quarter. Clearly it was tired legs in the second quarter. need to keep his minutes around 32-34 until he gets 36-38 minute NBA endurance.

  73. Droidz1979

    so much negativity and were just down 6 on the 4th quarter still with 8:34 time.. jeesh! its still a winnable game and were not down by 29 like the Pacers are with the Heat right now.

  74. DRed

    rururuland2: You want to give him more than 20 minutes playing with an NBA point guard?

    You see the last two possessions he was involved with Lin?

    You can’t be serious.

    I’m not serious, I’m DRed.
    Amare is 5-15 and is being outrebounded by our shooting guard (again) while playing no defense whatsoever. I’d definitely look to move him.

  75. Droidz1979

    we still have Novak and his +6 +/- stat, apparently the only one with the positive digits for the Knicks tonight.. Chandler will be fine

  76. Nick C.

    Beautiful feed by Lin to Amare. Then some good defense and a shot in the paint by Amare. Only down two.

  77. rururuland2

    DRed: I’m not serious, I’m DRed.Amare is 5-15 and is being outrebounded by our shooting guard (again) while playing no defense whatsoever. I’d definitely look to move him.

    Smh

  78. d-mar

    The Amare trashing on this site during his first game back after the death of his brother is just way over the top.

  79. Jake S.

    d-mar:
    The Amare trashing on this site during his first game back after the death of his brother is just way over the top.

    Oh come on, we’re talking basketball.

  80. massive

    Lin’s style of basketball bothers me. Look at how he’s getting hammered in the regular season by the Raptors! Imagine what KG or Noah would do to him in the playoffs?

  81. Nick C.

    I guess Lin needs to get fouled by multiple players to get a call. Woof had Charles Smith flashbacks there. What are they shooting at the line?

  82. rururuland2

    massive: Lin’s style of basketball bothers me. Look at how he’s getting hammered in the regular season by the Raptors! Imagine what KG or Noah would do to him in the playoffs?

    Someone make sense of this for me.

  83. massive

    Watching Amar’e play defense is painful. He doesn’t even look like he’s trying half of the time. He could at least foul Barbosa on that drive.

  84. Kikuchiyo

    You’re right. This announcer is a BAD Tommy Heinsohn. Ugh.

    And Balderon is villainous. I still like Barbosa though.

  85. d-mar

    We’re not losing this game because of Amare’s defense, Calderon destroyed us in the 1st half and it’s been uphill ever since

  86. massive

    rururuland2: Someone make sense of this for me.

    I mean that the way Lin takes the ball to the basket, he can get injured at any moment. You can see him wincing every time he gets hit, and it’s not like we’re playing a defensive powerhouse in the Raptors. Against a team like the Celtics or the Bulls, he’s likely to get hit much harder, and that worries me.

  87. Jake S.

    d-mar:
    We’re not losing this game because of Amare’s defense, Calderon destroyed us in the 1st half and it’s been uphill ever since

    But that’s the thing. Amar’e’s supposed to pop out on that pick and roll.

  88. massive

    d-mar:
    We’re not losing this game because of Amare’s defense, Calderon destroyed us in the 1st half and it’s been uphill ever since

    His defense sure isn’t helping lol

  89. MKinLA

    I don’t understand MD waiting to move Shump Shump over to Calderon. Once he did, Calderon was shut down cold. Too bad the horses had already fled the barn…

  90. Thomas B. Post author

    Would any of you be surprised to see Shumpert named first team defense in the NBA some day?

  91. jon abbey

    MKinLA:
    I don’t understand MD waiting to move Shump Shump over to Calderon. Once he did, Calderon was shut down cold. Too bad the horses had already fled the barn…

    he’s not a very good coach, mediocre at best.

  92. jon abbey

    Thomas B.:
    Would any of you be surprised to see Shumpert named first team defense in the NBA some day?

    he’s one of the best defending guards I’ve ever seen already, so no.

    SHUMP SHUMP!!!!!!

  93. SeeWhyDee77

    it’s funny in a takin a drink an wanting to jump off a bridge kinda way how the moment Amare returns 2 tha lineup, our defense takes a complete nose dive. A nose dive so hard that the team might actually find themselves in China. Yea…so not funny. I don’t mind the team missin shots cuz I believe they will heat up..but the defense has been pathetic overall..but they are playin nice when it counts I will give them that..

  94. atnnyjet

    LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  95. xduckshoex

    I could have gone to this game tonight, the girlfriend and I were going to go for valentines day but we were too broke and I have a midterm at 8 am.

    My roommate, a Raptors fan, went though. It’s nice knowing he had his heart broken by Lin.

  96. The Infamous Cdiggy

    WOW… I thought that the Raptors were missing just enough shots to keep us in it, but WOWWWW!!!

    And let’s give Shump Shump a game ball for that man of a steak-and-basket.

  97. d-mar

    I know Lin made the shot, but the game ball goes to Shump, he completely shut down smug Calderon, and that steal probably saved the game for the Knicks.

  98. Droidz1979

    xduckshoex:
    I could have gone to this game tonight, the girlfriend and I were going to go for valentines day but we were too broke and I have a midterm at 8 am.

    My roommate, a Raptors fan, went though.It’s nice knowing he had his heart broken by Lin.

    Quote of the night, HANDS DOWN! Sorry Raptor fans..

  99. Frank O.

    Wow.
    I knew they would win, but I didn’t know it would be like that.
    Of course they don’t win without SHUMP shutting Calderon down

  100. The Infamous Cdiggy

    d-mar:
    I know Lin made the shot, but the game ball goes to Shump, he completely shut down smug Calderon, and that steal probably saved the game for the Knicks.

    +1 …by the way I meant steal of a basket… but someone SHOULD buy him a steak for his D on Calderon.

  101. jon abbey

    d-mar:
    I know Lin made the shot, but the game ball goes to Shump, he completely shut down smug Calderon, and that steal probably saved the game for the Knicks.

    yep, he sucked for most of the game, but he really seems to be a crunch time player, my favorite Knick in a long time.

  102. Nick C.

    SHUMP S

    cite=”c

    36m

    Sorry for the multiple cap Lin posts. The phone must have been freaking out too.

    Thomas B.:
    Would any of you be surprised to see Shumpert named first team defense in the NBA some day?

    Thomas B.:
    Would any of you be surprised to see Shumpert named first team defense in the NBA some day?

  103. rururuland2

    jon abbey: yep, he sucked for most of the game, but he really seems to be a crunch time player, my favorite Knick in a long time.

    The momentum turned on that steal. Shump has elite competitiveness.

    When Amar’e and Melo get going this team is going to be something else.

  104. matte sideburns

    It sure is nice being on the other side of these lead-by-10-all-game-only-to-lose-it-at-the-buzzer games.

  105. DRed

    jon abbey: yep, he sucked for most of the game, but he really seems to be a crunch time player, my favorite Knick in a long time.

    If he could learn to finish at the basket he’d be like a young Spreewell. I think you’re probably the only person besides mama Shumpert who prefers him to Lin right now, though, Jon.

  106. Frank O.

    My sons are watching basketball with me!
    They never used to watch ball. My 9 year old is now into e game and asked for a basketball for his b-day.
    And when Lin buried that last shot, my 18 year old, grumpy adolescent, jumped up and down and hugged and high-fived me.
    This may sound silly, but after a tough year with him, I’m actually grateful for Lin and the Knicks for a new reason entirely.
    A great game, and a great night for the clan here.
    Amazing

  107. Thomas B. Post author

    Owen:
    Lol. Crazy.

    I got to give Shump Shump a hat tip, great game….

    Show some LOVE for Chandler-the T-1000-for the block and the offensive board that gave Lin the chance to drain the game winner. I love this team right now!!!!

  108. rururuland2

    DRed: If he could learn to finish at the basket he’d be like a young Spreewell. I think you’re probably the only person besides mama Shumpert who prefers him to Lin right now, though, Jon.

    I sort of see the Spree comparison. It makes no sense that Shump isn’t finishing.

    Guy was a great finisher at Gtech. And he can probably go higher on the glass than anyone on the roster.

  109. Tony Pena

    ESPN LA reporter tweet:

    @mcten Dave McMenamin:
    The Lakers’ players lounge just erupted when Lin hit that big 3. World Peace emerged and ran through the locker room yelling ‘Linsanity!!’

  110. xcat01

    I am enjoying watching the Knicks for the first time since the 90s. This is awesome. Shump was awesome. I was said this before and I will say it again, JLin has ice water in his veins. You can’t teach that, you are born with that.

  111. rohank

    AHHHHHHHHHHH JEREMY LIN IS AMAZINGGGGGGGGG

    BEST THING TO HAPPEN TO NY SINCE DEREK JETER!!!

    I’m so lucky my gf wanted to watch the game with me tonight. she is AWESOME

  112. rururuland2

    Tony Pena: ESPN LA reporter tweet:@mcten Dave McMenamin:The Lakers’ players lounge just erupted when Lin hit that big 3. World Peace emerged and ran through the locker room yelling ‘Linsanity!!’

    Yeah, the Lakers are done, too.

  113. ess-dog

    Thomas B.: Show some LOVE for Chandler-the T-1000-for the block and the offensive board that gave Lin the chance to drain the game winner. I love this team right now!!!!

    He’s now 6th in the league in WS48. Lin would be 10th if he qualified.

  114. The Infamous Cdiggy

    BigBlueAL:
    One player who needs to get major props besides Lin is Shump for his amazing D in the 4th quarter.

    Shump Shump will be an elite perimeter defender (elite meaning he’ll be able to stay with the DRose’s, DWade’s Rondo’s Westbrook’s et al). I can’t wait to see how he develops within the next year or two. And oohhh boy if he ever develops a consistent jumper…

  115. Thomas B. Post author

    I know you guys are all Lin, and I’m not taking anything away from him, but Iman Shumpert turned this game around with his defense on Calderon. He shut him down. You older fans might recall the famous 4th quarter shut down during the Mason, Oakley, Starks, Ewing era. Well Shumpert brought that back for me tonight. It was a total transformation when Shumpert went at Calderon. Wow.

    I don’t say this often, but Jon Abbey called it on this guy from the moment he was drafted. Iman Shumpert is the real deal.

    Shump Shump!!

  116. rururuland2

    The Infamous Cdiggy: Shump Shump will be an elite perimeter defender (elite meaning he’ll be able to stay with the DRose’s, DWade’s Rondo’s Westbrook’s et al). I can’t wait to see how he develops within the next year or two. And oohhh boy if he ever develops a consistent jumper…

    He had a really tough time against Rose and Rondo. Still struggles quite a bit in PnR.

    The best hands I think since Mookie Blaylock, still a lot to work on but can shut down average quickness guys on ball.

  117. xcat01

    This Knicks team is fine the way it is. Build the team around JLin, Shump and Fields that should be the core for the next 5 -10 years.

  118. rururuland2

    Thomas B.: I know you guys are all Lin, and I’m not taking anything away from him, but Iman Shumpert turned this game around with his defense on Calderon. He shut him down. You older fans might recall the famous 4th quarter shut down during the Mason, Oakley, Starks, Ewing era. Well Shumpert brought that back for me tonight. It was a total transformation when Shumpert went at Calderon. Wow. I don’t say this often, but Jon Abbey called it on this guy from the moment he was drafted. Iman Shumpert is the real deal. Shump Shump!!

    The great defenders in this league can really slow down premier scorers. I see al the potential in the world for Shump to do that, but he’s yet to do that.

    Calderon is pretty slow.

    That’s the next step. But yeah, potentially you could be looking at an elite man defender with incredible ball hawk skills.

    Not many guys in NBA history with that combo.

  119. rururuland2

    xcat01: This Knicks team is fine the way it is. Build the team around JLin, Shump and Fields that should be the core for the next 5 -10 years.

    lmao

  120. Bruno Almeida

    as much as I hate Bill Walker right now and absolutely love Shumpert’s defense, there’s just no way we can start him…

    Fields is already a bad 3pt shooter, he’s being left alone in the 3pt line often, if we play another terrible 3pt shooter there will be no spacing at all for Lin’s drives and for the pick and roll.

    let’s just hope Walker has a few more lucky games before Melo is back… or we could start Novakalypse, but god, just thinking about him guarding opposing 3’s is brutal.

  121. Doug

    rururuland2: I sort of see the Spree comparison. It makes no sense that Shump isn’t finishing.

    Guy was a great finisher at Gtech. And he can probably go higher on the glass than anyone on the roster.

    Two-footed leaper? It takes him that much more time to lift off.

  122. Frank O.

    Btw, Amare’s d was pretty terrible, made more stark by how well the D played as soon as he sat.
    But Amare made some big shots down the stretch there and kept some balls alive. He started to find his way on the floor.
    But Lin, Shump, Chandler, Jeffries, Fields and Amare all made important contribs.

  123. massive

    Thomas B.:
    I know you guys are all Lin, and I’m not taking anything away from him, but Iman Shumpert turned this game around with his defense on Calderon.He shut him down.You older fans might recall the famous 4th quarter shut down during the Mason, Oakley, Starks, Ewing era.Well Shumpert brought that back for me tonight.It was a total transformation when Shumpert went at Calderon.Wow.

    I don’t say this often, but Jon Abbey called it on this guy from the moment he was drafted.Iman Shumpert is the real deal.

    Shump Shump!!

    Yeah, Shumpert’s defense really did save the game for us. I can see why he was touted as the best defender in the draft. I don’t think there’s a perimeter player in the league he can’t at least bother with his length and intensity.

  124. Droidz1979

    Teams better stop daring J-LIN to shoot 3’s.. payback has been a bitch so far and it obviously does not work. Go ask the Raps on that one, they know the feeling.

  125. rururuland2

    Bruno Almeida: as much as I hate Bill Walker right now and absolutely love Shumpert’s defense, there’s just no way we can start him…Fields is already a bad 3pt shooter, he’s being left alone in the 3pt line often, if we play another terrible 3pt shooter there will be no spacing at all for Lin’s drives and for the pick and roll.let’s just hope Walker has a few more lucky games before Melo is back… or we could start Novakalypse, but god, just thinking about him guarding opposing 3?s is brutal.

    Linas Kleiza was absolutely destroying him on the glass. Novak is a 180-200 WS guy so what do I know.

    Clearly the statistical sample is large enough; Novak is a top 15 player.

  126. Thomas B. Post author

    Calderon is pretty slow.

    I agree he is pretty slow but he had 20+ points and was getting anywhere he wanted before the 4th. Calderon aint Tony Parker by any stretch, but Shumpert did what no other Knick found a way to do. And it was that work that made the Raptor look like the bottom tier offense that they really are.

  127. Frank O.

    The key play was when Amare got faced and the Knicks were falling back on D, but then Shump poked the ball away from Calderon, and made the monster jam. It lit a fire. We never used to get those momentum swings our way.
    That was when you knew the game was heading the Knicks way.

  128. Tony Pena

    Thomas B.:
    I know you guys are all Lin, and I’m not taking anything away from him, but Iman Shumpert turned this game around with his defense on Calderon.He shut him down.You older fans might recall the famous 4th quarter shut down during the Mason, Oakley, Starks, Ewing era.Well Shumpert brought that back for me tonight.It was a total transformation when Shumpert went at Calderon.Wow.

    I don’t say this often, but Jon Abbey called it on this guy from the moment he was drafted.Iman Shumpert is the real deal.

    Shump Shump!!

    I’ve long been on the Shump train, when about half here hated it. Though to be fair I wanted Markieff Morris or Reggie Jackson before him…

    Shump Shump

  129. Frank O.

    Thomas B.: I agree he is pretty slow but he had 20+ points and was getting anywhere he wanted before the 4th.Calderon aint Tony Parker by any stretch, but Shumpert did what no other Knick found a way to do.And it was that work that made the Raptor look like the bottom tier offense that they really are.

    And credit Mike D. For making the switch

  130. rururuland2

    Frank O.: Btw, Amare’s d was pretty terrible, made more stark by how well the D played as soon as he sat.But Amare made some big shots down the stretch there and kept some balls alive. He started to find his way on the floor.But Lin, Shump, Chandler, Jeffries, Fields and Amare all made important contribs.

    Amar’e is going to be great again in this situation. I have no doubts about that. I think it shows the ignorance of many on this board, in this very thread in fact, who talked trading Amar’e after his poor first half.

    You need a couple hundred reps before you can begin developing a real rapport with a guy in the PnR. You saw glimpses in the second half of what these guys will be doing defenses — it is a slightly poorer man’s version of Nash/Amar’e. It’s pretty obvious.
    He will more than make up for his defensive issues. To have a guy like Jeffries though who can turn a game around defensively is fantastic.

    But riding a guy like Jeffries 25-30 mpg and expecting sumpreme defensive effort is just too much.

    he’s a momentum player who can fit into any situation, and used for long stretches only when your team needs a defensive spark will maximize what he brings you.

  131. d-mar

    KnickInSeattle:
    Possible injuries across Knickland on that 3, like with Houston @ Miami in 99.

    Worth it!

    It’s funny you bring that up, when Houston made that shot I jumped up and smashed a ceiling light fixture. Came close to a replay tonight!

  132. Z-man

    Thomas B.: I don’t say this often, but Jon Abbey called it on this guy from the moment he was drafted. Iman Shumpert is the real deal.
    Shump Shump!!

    Go back to the draft day thread, TB. Then come back and give me some love too. I was hotter for Shump than anyone BEFORE we drafted him!

  133. rururuland2

    Doug: Two-footed leaper? It takes him that much more time to lift off.

    It’s a good point. but some of his misses have come with clear lanes where he can get clean take-offs.

    it’s just odd.

  134. jon abbey

    I said it last game too, but NY really should invest in a specialized coach for Shumpert, Ron Harper was my idea. he has so much potential, off the charts.

  135. jon abbey

    Z-man: Go back to the draft day thread, TB. Then come back and give me some love too. I was hotter for Shump than anyone BEFORE we drafted him!

    yeah, I don’t think I get credit there, I’ve been a huge fan since seeing him in preseason, I was agnostic on draft day without enough knowledge.

    I will take credit for Lawson and Blair in 2009, though, I was SCREAMING for Walsh to take Lawson or at least another PG.

  136. rururuland2

    Thomas B.: I agree he is pretty slow but he had 20+ points and was getting anywhere he wanted before the 4th. Calderon aint Tony Parker by any stretch, but Shumpert did what no other Knick found a way to do. And it was that work that made the Raptor look like the bottom tier offense that they really are.

    Hey, I’m not taking anything away from Shump.

    I see the same POTENTIAL you all see, which is easily a topp-5 wing defender.

    But before I proclaim him one of those guys I need to see him do this to an elite guard or wing. Not shut them down but really get them into hero-mode and slow them down.

    So far he’s really failed big time in his big-time tests. But it’s ridiculously early and he has the attibutes to do it.

  137. Frank O.

    Yeah, at any give tie folks have called for Amare to be traded, Mike D. To be fired, Carmelo to be traded, Jeffries has routinely been abused.
    Anyway, just occurred to me

  138. rururuland2

    Frank O.: Yeah, at any give tie folks have called for Amare to be traded, Mike D. To be fired, Carmelo to be traded, Jeffries has routinely been abused.Anyway, just occurred to me

    And it’s not just a few fans. Go to any message board and it’s clearly a large percentage of Knicks fans.

    It’s quite sad actually.

  139. Thomas B. Post author

    Z-man: Go back to the draft day thread, TB. Then come back and give me some love too. I was hotter for Shump than anyone BEFORE we drafted him!

    Love and respect to you as well Z. I was not high on the guy (actually I considered ritual seppuku when they called his name), hey I was wrong.

  140. A Voice of Reason

    I am very interested in Lin’s ability to find Melo for catch and shoots. Melo is a great catch and shoot player, and those opportunities get his off dribble game going. Shumpert’s defense should be noticed by anyone with eyes. Calderon is a good player and he was shut down in the fourth. Lin seems to have a sweet little jumper too, although quirky. A high arc, smooth release and calm rhythm help him snap the nets. Amare will be better than tonight. Things are wonderful in Knickland thanks to a lincredible shot.

  141. jon abbey

    rururuland2:

    But before I proclaim him one of those guys I need to see him do this to an elite guard or wing. Not shut them down but really get them into hero-mode and slow them down.

    So far he’s really failed big time in his big-time tests. But it’s ridiculously early and he has the attibutes to do it.

    not sure what this is based on, who has toasted him? he held Kobe to 3-11 (when he was the one guarding him) and had at least one abusive take away.

  142. Z-man

    jon abbey: yeah, I don’t think I get credit there, I’ve been a huge fan since seeing him in preseason, I was agnostic on draft day without enough knowledge.I will take credit for Lawson and Blair in 2009, though, I was SCREAMING for Walsh to take Lawson or at least another PG.

    Lawson would have been nice, but we probably would have dumped him by now to clear cap space or something a la Hill.

    And if we kept him, we wouldn’t have lived to see this spectacle of historic proportions. LINSANITY LIVES!!!

  143. rururuland2

    A Voice of Reason: I am very interested in Lin’s ability to find Melo for catch and shoots. Melo is a great catch and shoot player, and those opportunities get his off dribble game going. Shumpert’s defense should be noticed by anyone with eyes. Calderon is a good player and he was shut down in the fourth. Lin seems to have a sweet little jumper too, although quirky. A high arc, smooth release and calm rhythm help him snap the nets. Amare will be better than tonight. Things are wonderful in Knickland thanks to a lincredible shot.

    As I’ve said before Melo’s never played with this kind of point guard. But he has played with one pg who could find him moving without the ball, that was much inferior version of Melo who had 60+ % of his baskets assisted.

    People will be shocked at how well Melo is going to eventually work with Lin. It’s not likely to happen right away though.

    As is this has a chance to be a dominant offensive team.

  144. Tony Pena

    jon abbey:
    I said it last game too, but NY really should invest in a specialized coach for Shumpert, Ron Harper was my idea. he has so much potential, off the charts.

    Shump is like a guard version of Wilson Chandler

  145. rururuland2

    jon abbey: not sure what this is based on, who has toasted him? he held Kobe to 3-11 (when he was the one guarding him) and had at least one abusive take away.

    Rose killed him. Rondo in the first game of the year. The only game I missed was the Lakers game, and I was under the impression that Fields was matched up with him most of the night.

    I’d love to go and look back at that 3-11 against Kobe. it doesn’t surprise me a bit. But I will say I was surprised at how tentative he was against the elite pgs.

  146. Z-man

    Thomas B.: Love and respect to you as well Z. I was not high on the guy (actually I considered ritual seppuku when they called his name), hey I was wrong.

    Thanks, Thomas, I needed that. Especially since my wife is not especially enamored with the way I went about Va-Lin-tine’s Day.

    I to nearly disemboweled myself when he got carried off the court after a glimpse of what he can be in game 1 vs. Boston. Hopefully the best is yet to come!

  147. massive

    rururuland2: Rose killed him. Rondo in the first game of the year. The only game I missed was the Lakers game, and I was under the impression that Fields was matched up with him most of the night.

    I’d love to go and look back at that 3-11 against Kobe. it doesn’t surprise me a bit. But I will say I was surprised at how tentative he was against the elite pgs.

    You’d have to remember that the team struggled against those teams, not just Shump. He plays both Rose and Rondo again this season, so we’ll see. But then again, the only person I’ve ever seen shut one of those two down (and it was Rose) is LeBron James.

  148. xduckshoex

    Are we really criticizing a rookie for having some trouble with an all-star in his first NBA game, and the reigning MVP 20 games into his career?

  149. The Infamous Cdiggy

    You know what… I know Linfinity had eight turnovers, but I agree with Jeffries’ comments about him still having a great game.
    Maybe by advanced stats he didn’t have a *great* game, but 27pts and 11asts with the King Kong-balls three to win the game…

    I believe in Jeremy Lin.

  150. The Infamous Cdiggy

    xduckshoex:
    Are we really criticizing a rookie for having some trouble with an all-star in his first NBA game, and the reigning MVP 20 games into his career?

    co-signed

  151. d-mar

    If you watch the replay on Lin’s 3 point play, I think he kicked Johnson in the balls and got the foul call. That’s what happens when you are the chosen one.

  152. nicos

    Rose was 12-26 so it’s not like he killed Shump- the only guy that I thought really killed him was Westbrook. The great thing about Shumpert is that he’s getting all those steals on the ball, not by gambling in the passing lanes.

  153. Tony Pena

    d-mar:
    If you watch the replay on Lin’s 3 point play, I think he kicked Johnson in the balls and got the foul call. That’s what happens when you are the chosen one.

    I guess, he’s been getting mauled since the Laker game. MAybe he needs to call Gallo and ask him how to do that head-jerk thing.

  154. Frank O.

    nicos:
    Rose was 12-26 so it’s not like he killed Shump- the only guy that I thought really killed him was Westbrook.The great thing about Shumpert is that he’s getting all those steals on the ball, not by gambling in the passing lanes.

    …like TD did all the time.

  155. Thomas B. Post author

    d-mar:
    If you watch the replay on Lin’s 3 point play, I think he kicked Johnson in the balls and got the foul call. That’s what happens when you are the chosen one.

    Maybe Amare should have done that when Johnson was blocking 4 of his shots.

  156. Degree_Absolute

    A bi-polar effort, but good teams get it together when it counts. I can’t say enough about Shump’s D on Calderon in the second half. Also, Chandler, despite foul trouble, was a wall down low. I know we missed Chauncey, but he is our MVP so far.

    When we weren’t hitting shots early, Lin felt pressured to make something happen and he tried to do too much. After a lot of frustration, he and STAT eventually came together for a few pretty connections and then Lin performed yet another miracle. Good job, guys.

    LINIONS!!!

  157. flossy

    rururuland2: Rose killed him. Rondo in the first game of the year.

    Are you really knocking Shumpert for not shutting down one of the best PGs in the NBA in his *very first game* as a professional? (In which he also got injured?)

  158. rururuland2

    xduckshoex: Are we really criticizing a rookie for having some trouble with an all-star in his first NBA game, and the reigning MVP 20 games into his career?

    The context of my responses escapes you once again. No surprise.

  159. rururuland2

    flossy: Are you really knocking Shumpert for not shutting down one of the best PGs in the NBA in his *very first game* as a professional? (In which he also got injured?)

    Read. The .Thread. Before. You. Respond.

    It’s not a knock on Shumpert, I’m saying before you elevate him to premier wing/guard defender he needs to show THIS against one of these guys a few times.

    I believe he can do it, but so far he hasn’t.

  160. rururuland2

    nicos: Rose was 12-26 so it’s not like he killed Shump- the only guy that I thought really killed him was Westbrook. The great thing about Shumpert is that he’s getting all those steals on the ball, not by gambling in the passing lanes.

    Shumpert was very poor in PnR against Rose. He still is not a good PnR defender.

  161. nicos

    rururuland2: Shumpert was very poor in PnR against Rose. He still is not a good PnR defender.

    No one, and I mean no one can stay in front of Rose in the pnr, but Shumpert did a decent job on Rose in straight isolation situations. I’d also note that Shumpert has done a much better job at getting over screens in the last couple of weeks, hopefully that will continue.

  162. rururuland2

    “Jeremy Lin and Amar’e Stoudemire were especially effective using the pick-and-roll, a strategy Stoudemire had not used much this season. Stoudemire averaged one field goal attempt per game before Tuesday when using the pick-and-roll offense, and he averaged a half-point more per play Tuesday than he had this season.” per ESPN

  163. rururuland2

    nicos: No one, and I mean no one can stay in front of Rose in the pnr, but Shumpert did a decent job on Rose in straight isolation situations. I’d also note that Shumpert has done a much better job at getting over screens in the last couple of weeks, hopefully that will continue.

    Not sure about this: “No one, and I mean no one can stay in front of Rose in the pnr”

    Miami did. Boston does.

    “I’d also note that Shumpert has done a much better job at getting over screens in the last couple of weeks, hopefully that will continue.”

    Agree, need to see a lot more of that.

  164. TelegraphedPass

    d-mar:
    Do you think a fair comparison to Shumpert is Artest in his prime before he became Metta Crazy SOB?

    Nah. Very different. Artest is huge and might still be the strongest player in the league at his position. Counting LeBron. Artest is inhumanly strong. In his prime, he held all opposing forwards down to some stupidly low average. I don’t recall the exact number, but it was outrageous. Shump isn’t that.

    He is a super-athletic guard though. And he’s quick. It was clear to me when NY picked him that they wanted someone who could guard Wade and Rose come playoff time. I think he can do that very well, given time and experience. That will be his greatest contribution.

  165. James

    rururuland2: As I’ve said before Melo’s never played with this kind of point guard. But he has played with one pg who could find him moving without the ball, that was much inferior version of Melo who had 60+ % of his baskets assisted.

    People will be shocked at how well Melo is going to eventually work with Lin. It’s not likely to happen right away though.

    As is this has a chance to be a dominant offensive team.

    You’ve repeated this constantly but I think you’re grossly overestimating how much a difference a point guard makes in the shooting efficiency of a high possession perimeter player. A good point guard or any playmaker at all can make bigs or role players efficient because they get set shots for both or catch them on rolls or cuts to the rim. But the top scorers in the league are efficient regardless of the point guards they play with. You can put Durant next to anyone and he’ll be efficient because of his shooting stroke, shot selection and ability to get to the line. Same with Lebron, Wade or anyone else in history.

    Melo is often compared to Pierce but the three years before Garnett and Ray became his teammates, Pierce’s TS% was 58.3, 58.2 and 57.1 and he was playing with the likes of Marcus Banks, Orien Greene, Sebastian Telfair and a rookie Rajon Rondo.

    Melo’s has only been average efficiently, not because he’s played next to non playmaking point guards, but because he loves the long-2, the most inefficient shot in basketball, because he loves to iso (the most inefficient way to create shots in basketball) and because he’s not very good from deep. He has the ability to be efficient but it’s going to take him playing smarter more than the fairy dust of a point guard.

  166. art vandelay

    Big props to Chandler for rebounding that last shump miss and setting up the final Lin game winner!!! btw, I absolutely punctured the ceiling accidently jumping on the bed back in 99 on Houston’s miami game 5 game winner!

  167. TelegraphedPass

    Thomas B.: Love and respect to you as well Z.I was not high on the guy (actually I considered ritual seppuku when they called his name), hey I was wrong.

    I remember loving the Shump pick. He was arguably the best athlete in the draft, he was a combo guard to match with some of the threats in the east, and he had a chance to get burn. Everyone was sweating Singleton, but he had no chance to get serious PT here without a Melo injury. At which point we’d likely be out of contention anyways. Singleton has not lived up to the defensive hype yet at all, by the way.

  168. xduckshoex

    rururuland2: The context of my responses escapes you once again. No surprise.

    It appears as though the context was lost on everyone else as well. No surprise.

  169. rururuland2

    James: You’ve repeated this constantly but I think you’re grossly overestimating how much a difference a point guard makes in the shooting efficiency of a high possession perimeter player. A good point guard or any playmaker at all can make bigs or role players efficient because they get set shots for both or catch them on rolls or cuts to the rim. But the top scorers in the league are efficient regardless of the point guards they play with. You can put Durant next to anyone and he’ll be efficient because of his shooting stroke, shot selection and ability to get to the line. Same with Lebron, Wade or anyone else in history. He has the ability to be efficient but it’s going to take him playing smarter more than the fairy dust of a point guard.

    Again, you’re not going deep enough here. Yes, we all know his tendencies in isolation.

    But what I’m asking you to do here is think of Melo taking 20-30 (perhaps more) percent less contested isolation step-backs and replacing it with more open 3 pt catch and shoot shots, more plays handling the ball in the pick and roll (I can explain why he’ll get more of these too), and things you’ve never seen Melo do before– make hard cuts to the basket either as Lin is penetrating, or quick fronts near the rim, semi-transition, and running the wing on the break (where he excelled with Andre Miller)

    All of those things Melo can do when he has a guard that gets in the lane, is a good passer, and can be trusted to deliver.

    Durant’s game is not like Westbrook’s. Durant’s primarily a catch-and-shoot player who doesn’t need anything more than a solid pass from a guard behind the 3pt line.

    Wade and Lebron essentially function as point guards most of the time.

    None of the guys you mentioned are good comaprisons.

    and things you probably have never seen Melo do here: get behind a defender

  170. rururuland2

    xduckshoex: It appears as though the context was lost on everyone else as well. No surprise.

    I could either waste my time explaining to you in detail how your response was incogent to the discussion, or I could ignore you.
    hmm.

  171. nicos

    rururuland2: Not sure about this: “No one, and I mean no one can stay in front of Rose in the pnr”

    Miami did. Boston does.

    “I’d also note that Shumpert has done a much better job at getting over screens in the last couple of weeks, hopefully that will continue.”

    Agree, need to see a lot more of that.

    Not to belabor the point- because I’d agree that the pnr is probably Shumpert’s weakest point- but both Miami and especially Boston have bigs who blitz the pnr to get the ball out of the guards hands. Jeffries is the only Knick big who really does this. Miami and Boston don’t let Rose turn the corner- once he does that it’s over.

  172. rururuland2

    James: You’ve repeated this constantly but I think you’re grossly overestimating how much a difference a point guard makes in the shooting efficiency of a high possession perimeter player. A good point guard or any playmaker at all can make bigs or role players efficient because they get set shots for both or catch them on rolls or cuts to the rim. But the top scorers in the league are efficient regardless of the point guards they play with. You can put Durant next to anyone and he’ll be efficient because of his shooting stroke, shot selection and ability to get to the line. Same with Lebron, Wade or anyone else in history.Melo is often compared to Pierce but the three years before Garnett and Ray became his teammates, Pierce’s TS% was 58.3, 58.2 and 57.1 and he was playing with the likes of Marcus Banks, Orien Greene, Sebastian Telfair and a rookie Rajon Rondo. Melo’s has only been average efficiently, not because he’s played next to non playmaking point guards, but because he loves the long-2, the most inefficient shot in basketball, because he loves to iso (the most inefficient way to create shots in basketball) and because he’s not very good from deep. He has the ability to be efficient but it’s going to take him playing smarter more than the fairy dust of a point guard.

    Having a pg like Lin not only gives Melo a chance to take less contested shots without the dribble, but it opens up the entirety of his toolbox as a scorer.

    In that sense, there really is no reference point for the efficiency Melo will eventually score with when you have the elements of floor spacing, probing guard, multiple motion and strong-wise PnR dominance of Amar’e/Lin.

    Again, Melo’s never played with a point guard who consistently gets into the lane nad has the prescence of mind and skills to make accurate passes out of it.

  173. rururuland2

    nicos: Not to belabor the point- because I’d agree that the pnr is probably Shumpert’s weakest point- but both Miami and especially Boston have bigs who blitz the pnr to get the ball out of the guards hands. Jeffries is the only Knick big who really does this. Miami and Boston don’t let Rose turn the corner- once he does that it’s over.

    Sure, alot of its success is Boston blitzing and great hedging by bigs.

    But I want to see a lot more aggressiveness in attacking the PnR before I annoit Shump as an all-world defender.

    I have little doubt he will take his mentality on the ball and use it in those scenrarios. Some of it may be coaching as well.

  174. James

    rururuland2: Again, Melo’s never played with a point guard who consistently gets into the lane nad has the prescence of mind and skills to make accurate passes out of it.

    Neither have most of the top scorers in the league who have also managed to be above average to excellent in terms of efficiency.

    rururuland2: Having a pg like Lin not only gives Melo a chance to take less contested shots without the dribble, but it opens up the entirety of his toolbox as a scorer.
    In that sense, there really is no reference point for the efficiency Melo will eventually score with when you have the elements of floor spacing, probing guard, multiple motion and strong-wise PnR dominance of Amar’e/Lin.

    I like Lin a lot but you’re also overrating how good of a playmaker Lin is. You’re making him out to be a transcendent passer like Nash or Stockton or Paul. He’s not suddenly going to create dozens of wide open shots for Carmelo. It’s just not going to happen with the opposition’s top defender marking him. NBA defenses are much more difficult than that.

    For Melo to be efficient, he has to work out of the post more, use more picks, eschew the long-2s and improve his three point shot. That’s mostly independent of Lin or any point guard.

  175. James

    If Melo was taking 10 shots a game, a point guard or playmaker could make a big difference in his efficiency. But when you’re taking 18 or more shots a game, there’s only so many standstill jumpers and open cuts you’ll get. The efficiency of a high possession scorer is up to him.

  176. rururuland2

    James: .I like Lin a lot but you’re also overrating how good of a playmaker Lin is. You’re making him out to be a transcendent passer like Nash or Stockton or Paul. He’s not suddenly going to create dozens of wide open shots for Carmelo. It’s just not going to happen with the opposition’s top defender marking him. NBA defenses are much more difficult than that. For Melo to be efficient, he has to work out of the post more, use more picks, eschew the long-2s and improve his three point shot. That’s mostly independent of Lin or any point guard.

    “Neither have most of the top scorers in the league who have also managed to be above average to excellent in terms of efficiency.”

    Would you like to provide some evidence of this claim?

    I can think of plenty of top scorers who were greatly aided by penetrating point guards (not great point guards mind you) and more still who were aided by the floor spacing created by good post men.

    Melo’s played with neither.

    Melo is a good post player. Shumpert and Douglas struggled mightily simply getting entry passes to Melo from a few feet away.

    Melo can and will pin his defender if he knows a point guard can get him the ball.

    How many open looks has Melo gotten this year? How many open looks are created by penetration and rotation?

    I don’t have the empirical evidence at hand but I can assure these basic things are almost always essential to most any great perimeter/wing scorer.

    Durant gets plenty of great looks out of Westbrook or Harden penetration.

    Your assertion seems to be that great wings scorers only rely on their ability to create their own shots to be great– frankly that’s ignorant.

  177. rururuland2

    James: If Melo was taking 10 shots a game, a point guard or playmaker could make a big difference in his efficiency. But when you’re taking 18 or more shots a game, there’s only so many standstill jumpers and open cuts you’ll get. The efficiency of a high possession scorer is up to him.

    Melo was a .575 TS last year in this system and a .600 + TS this year pre-injury.

    The last time he played with a good passing point guard in an uptempo system he was a 600TS player over a 7 month stretch.

    Right now 30 percent of his makes are assisted. Watching the games Melo has played tells me most of his shots are difficult, the stats do too.

    We know the reasons for that.

    I can see at least 30-40 percent of Melo’s shots in THIS offense will be clean (or much cleaner).

    If you don’t think that won’t make a huge difference in efficiency come back and talk to in April when Melo will have set his career high in TS.

  178. TelegraphedPass

    rururuland2: Melo was a .575 TS last year in this system and a .600 + TS this year pre-injury.

    The last time he played with a good passing point guard in an uptempo system he was a 600TS player over a 7 month stretch.

    Right now 30 percent of his makes are assisted. Watching the games Melo has played tells me most of his shots are difficult, the stats do too.

    We know the reasons for that.

    I can see at least 30-40 percent of Melo’s shots in THIS offense will be clean (or much cleaner).

    If you don’t think that won’t make a huge difference in efficiency come back and talk to in April when Melo will have set his career high in TS.

    This may be as good a time as any to note that Melo’s career FG% is roughly 46% on 19 shots per game, and Durant’s is about 47% on 19 shots per. Durant is the more efficient scorer, but let’s not pretend Melo is some inefficient chucker and Durant is god’s gift to shotmaking.

  179. jon abbey

    yeah, Artest isn’t a great comparison for Shump Shump, Crazy Ron could guard the post if absolutely necessary. I remember he was one of the few who could guard Eddy Curry successfully the year he led the league in points in the paint (yes, this happened). the comparison I’ve been using in my head is Tony Allen.

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