Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Monday, October 20, 2014

2012 Game Thread: Knicks @ Thunder

The Mike Bibby era has officially begun.

116 comments on “2012 Game Thread: Knicks @ Thunder

  1. BigBlueAL

    Id rather Amar’e start making some shots rather than trying to act like a Charles Oakley tough guy.

  2. d-mar

    We look so much more like a team without Melo out there, ball movement, cohesion… oh wait, we’re down by 16

  3. Jake S.

    I know we’re missing our best guy tonight, but it’s clear the Knicks are just light years away from a team like this.

  4. BigBlueAL

    I thought the Knicks would lose a close game tonight but I underestimated how bad Amar’e and Shumpert are offensively right now.

  5. Jake S.

    llcoolbp:
    down by 23. where are all the carmelo haters tonight?

    I’m actually pro-Melo, but even watching the Knicks stumble around and spit up on themselves tonight, I understand the arguments against what he does to this offense. His assists may be way up, but he needs to move the ball more, plain and simple.

  6. scogg888

    this is pretty much what i expected…the thunder are the class of the league, we don’t have our best player, and most of our role players wouldn’t be the 11th man on okc’s roster

  7. Jake S.

    llcoolbp:
    knicks are going to need more then a healthy baron davis, this obvious now.

    They need more basketball players. Their top two isn’t good enough to drag its team to 60 victories like a certain, sub-tropical team. And as the Nuggets (and Bulls, and last year’s Mavs, etc.) reveal, the top heavy model may be flawed to begin with.

  8. latke

    THunder are playing just about as well as they can, but they are just a great great team. They really have four guys who if given the minutes would be all-stars: Ibaka, Harden, Westbrook, and Durant, and none of them need the ball to be effective. Durant can catch and shoot or dribble drive, Ibaka averages 11, 9 and 3 blocks per 36 and can spread the floor out to like 16 feet, Westbrook can kill you if you give him an opening into the paint, and Harden (probably my favorite player young player in the league) is just so balanced. He can do everything well and is a top flight shooter.

    Then you have a bench that is very solid and balanced with Collison (another super underrated player), Cook, Sepholosha (he starts but plays bench minutes) and Maynor. Even with Maynor out, Harden can play the one.

  9. bobneptune

    llcoolbp:
    believ me i understand that he needs to move the ball more. But without him, this team is unwatchable.

    of course it is…. the rest of the team is in denver.

  10. Shad0wF0x

    @27

    That team was fantastic to watch last night. I’m proud of Mosgov and how he keeps the ball up now.

  11. scogg888

    latke:
    THunder are playing just about as well as they can, but they are just a great great team. They really have four guys who if given the minutes would be all-stars: Ibaka, Harden, Westbrook, and Durant, and none of them need the ball to be effective. Durant can catch and shoot or dribble drive, Ibaka averages 11, 9 and 3 blocks per 36 and can spread the floor out to like 16 feet, Westbrook can kill you if you give him an opening into the paint, and Harden (probably my favorite player young player in the league) is just so balanced. He can do everything well and is a top flight shooter.

    Then you have a bench that is very solid and balanced with Collison (another super underrated player), Cook, Sepholosha (he starts but plays bench minutes) and Maynor. Even with Maynor out, Harden can play the one.

    yes

  12. BigBlueAL

    latke:
    THunder are playing just about as well as they can, but they are just a great great team. They really have four guys who if given the minutes would be all-stars: Ibaka, Harden, Westbrook, and Durant, and none of them need the ball to be effective. Durant can catch and shoot or dribble drive, Ibaka averages 11, 9 and 3 blocks per 36 and can spread the floor out to like 16 feet, Westbrook can kill you if you give him an opening into the paint, and Harden (probably my favorite player young player in the league) is just so balanced. He can do everything well and is a top flight shooter.

    Then you have a bench that is very solid and balanced with Collison (another super underrated player), Cook, Sepholosha (he starts but plays bench minutes) and Maynor. Even with Maynor out, Harden can play the one.

    Harden and Ibaka’s development has really turned them into a championship contender.

  13. KenB

    there is no ball movement. everyone is trying to create on their own. the knicks could put a 6th guy on the floor and it wouldnt help

  14. BigBlueAL

    KenB:
    there is no ball movement.everyone is trying to create on their own.the knicks could put a 6th guy on the floor and it wouldnt help

    Thats the myth that many here think that ball movement automatically leads to easy baskets. It doesnt matter how many passes you make and how much movement there is if the individual players cant get by their man and create shots for other players by drawing defenders or they cant even create shots for themselves than all these passes and movement is useless.

    It also helps to be able to make 3pters regardless if you are wide open or not.

  15. bobneptune

    Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta): Actually only Gallo and Moz are still there.

    there are the knick’s 2014 #1 and gs and the knicks #2 this year which all might be pretty good , too

    you get my point, bob. they traded essentially felton, gallo, mozgov, randolph, w. chandler 2 #2’s and a #1 choice for melo and the contract of chauncey that became t. chandler. so when melo isn’t in the lin-up…. there are an awful amount of holes to fill.

  16. KenB

    BigBlueAL: Thats the myth that many here think that ball movement automatically leads to easy baskets.It doesnt matter how many passes you make and how much movement there is if the individual players cant get by their man and create shots for other players by drawing defenders or they cant even create shots for themselves than all these passes and movement is useless.

    It also helps to be able to make 3pters regardless if you are wide open or not.

    i’ll agree with that. there is no threat on the floor when no one is hitting shots

  17. Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta)

    bobneptune: there are the knick’s 2014 #1 and gs and the knicks #2 this year which all might be pretty good , too

    you get my point, bob. they traded essentially felton, gallo, mozgov, randolph, w. chandler 2 #2?s and a #1 choice for melo and the contract of chauncey that became t. chandler. so when melo isn’t in the lin-up…. there are an awful amount of holes to fill.

    Straw man argument, bob. I never said the knicks didn’t give up a ton. Im just pointing out that Those pieces aren’t on the nuggets bench anymore, which is what you claimed

  18. Z

    Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta): Straw man argument, bob. I never said the knicks didn’t give up a ton. Im just pointing out that Those pieces aren’t on the nuggets bench anymore, which is what you claimed

    ??

    Bob’s point was pretty clear. If you trade all your good players for one guy, and that guy doesn’t play, you are going to have serious problems.

    (Unfortunately, when that guy does play, though, we still have most of the same problems.)

  19. BigBlueAL

    I will be my fairly optimistic usual self and say Knicks even after tonight will still be at .500 and in 7th place in the East with 4 home games in a row coming up. Also Baron Davis could be back in a couple of weeks.

    Have faith people!! lol

  20. Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta)

    Z: ??

    Bob’s point was pretty clear. If you trade all your good players for one guy, and that guy doesn’t play, you are going to have serious problems.

    (Unfortunately, when that guy does play, though, we still have most of the same problems.)

    No. Bob said “the rest of the team is in Denver.” which is not true. Moz and Gallo are the only ex Knicks left. The “knuggets” fallacy.

    I wasn’t commenting on whether or not the Knicks gave up a ton for Melo. Bob wrote that I did. That’s the straw man argument he presented. I’ve said many, many times the Knicks gave up too much. To imply that I did say or have said otherwise is untrue

  21. D.

    Hey how about them melo-less Knicks huh, told ya it will be a 20 point blowout. What of the guys keep missing here when they talk about mel is his leadership skills on offense, look at okc, it’s clear cut that Durant is the leader and this boosts their confidence and that’s the same with Melo and the Knicks. Guys here overestimate ball movement over Melo’s ability, he his a one man assassin and so long as he is on the floor, u got a chance.

    BigBlueAL:
    I will be my fairly optimistic usual self and say Knicks even after tonight will still be at .500 and in 7th place in the East with 4 home games in a row coming up.Also Baron Davis could be back in a couple of weeks.

    Have faith people!!lol

  22. ess-dog

    Shad0wF0x:
    @45

    I think the style of play and (personnel) we want is in Denver.

    Or Utah, Philly, Chicago, LA, Portland, Indiana, or the one beating the crap out of us now.

    I’m so fed up with this team. Unfortunately, Brooklyn will be even more of a disaster thanks to the Deron Williams rental…

  23. D.

    Don’t worry folks, Melo will be back to save day. My little boys even drew a Melo superhero figure person haha. Looking at our schedule we might need some of that. The team clearly can’t play well without it’s leader. I bet ruruland will cement my satire by saying that melo used to wear number 15 and that some guy named Tebows number as well. So u get the idea, anyhow where is that Melo lover? Can’t believe he didn’t show up on a day like this. Now let’s talk some stats.

  24. tenebrous

    thunder is the worst team in the league. I don’t know what u guys r so hyped up about? They won tonight but it means nothing in the long run.

  25. tenebrous

    i kinda like the fact that our starters are getting a break .. considering what the knicks went thru beginning as of say iseha and last and this year alone

  26. ruruland

    D.: Don’t worry folks, Melo will be back to save day. My little boys even drew a Melo superhero figure person haha. Looking at our schedule we might need some of that. The team clearly can’t play well without it’s leader. I bet ruruland will cement my satire by saying that melo used to wear number 15 and that some guy named Tebows number as well. So u get the idea, anyhow where is that Melo lover? Can’t believe he didn’t show up on a day like this. Now let’s talk some stats.

    ;)

    I thought Amar’e was going off tonight without the ball stopper?

  27. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Heaven forbid any of these guys get real burn.

    Balkman is a good player. He is a good player who makes dumb mistakes, true, but he is still a good player. Sending him to Siberia every time he makes a dumb mistake is a poor usage of his talent. At the end of the day, he gives more than he takes.

    Jordan should also see some playing time. Heck, even Lin. Okay, maybe not Lin.

  28. BigBlueAL

    Knicks bench is becoming good at face-saving 4th quarters. Lets hope this doesnt become a habit lol

  29. D.

    Wow I sometimes wander if this site seriously needs to consider rendering an IQ test to incoming members. But please do explain to me why u think the Thunder is the worst team in the league.

    tenebrous:
    thunder is the worst team in the league. I don’t know what u guys r so hyped up about? They won tonight but it means nothing in the long run.

  30. ess-dog

    D.:
    Hey how about them melo-less Knicks huh, told ya it will be a 20 point blowout. What of the guys keep missing here when they talk about mel is his leadership skills on offense, look at okc, it’s clear cut that Durant is the leader and this boosts their confidence and that’s the same with Melo and the Knicks. Guys here overestimate ball movement over Melo’s ability, he his a one man assassin and so long as he is on the floor,u got a chance.

    This is crap. It’s more that OKC has about 10 starter-quality players and we have 3. They are much better than us with Melo at full health. All you’ve proven is that you like to gloat over absurd notions like “leadership” skills.

  31. tenebrous

    D.:
    Wow I sometimes wander if this site seriously needs to consider rendering an IQ test to incoming members. But please do explain to me why u think the Thunder is the worst team in the league.

    theyre one of the youngest. they haven’t won anything. and they think we should b paying their bill

  32. Juany8

    The main problem with the Melo led offense so far has mostly been inconsistency. They’ve had moments where the team looks legit, but Melo has never been the point guard of the team in 7 years in the league. To expect him to totally change his playing style in 7 games is ridiculous, especially since Melo has actually made legitimate strides this year, which makes it obvious the only person this board would be happy with is Lebron James. Kevin Durant, Dirk, Howard, any top player who’s not a guard would be useless for this team as long as Amar’e is the second star. You can’t play without any competent guards, period. I know it seems crazy to hope for Baron Davis, but he’s a competent professional point guard. Luke Ridnour would probably make this team run well, we really don’t need anything spectacular. Also until Melo comes back, expect more losses like this, there’s no one on this team that can dribble…

  33. ruruland

    ess-dog: This is crap. It’s more that OKC has about 10 starter-quality players and we have 3. They are much better than us with Melo at full health. All you’ve proven is that you like to gloat over absurd notions like “leadership” skills.

    Thunder’s payroll is similarly configured to Knicks…..

    makes you think.

    Maybe you do whatever you can to unload Amar’e for expirings and rebuild around Melo and Chandler. STATS issues have me thinking he may be completely unmoveable in a couple of years…which would mean you can’t rebuild for 3-4 years….

    You can avoid that abyss though

  34. ruruland

    Actually, OKC has yet to sign Westbrook to his big deal. They are locked in with a lot of their role players for the next two years though…

    I just think you do whatever you can to get rid of Amar’e’s contract.

  35. Jahredmen

    Can we merge the Knicks and Nets, cherrypick a decent team, have Prokhorov send Dolan to Siberia, and split the home games between msg and Brooklyn?

  36. ess-dog

    Juany8:

    I know it seems crazy to hope for Baron Davis, but he’s a competent professional point guard.

    Well sure, it does makes sense that he could completely overhaul his game in his 15th season. I hope he’s eligible for the All-Star game…

  37. ess-dog

    ruruland:

    I just think you do whatever you can to get rid of Amar’e’s contract.

    Do you remember who we were bidding against for the honor of giving him a 5 year, uninsured contract? Oh right… nobody.

  38. ruruland

    Sorry for the barrage of posts and things you already know.

    But Melo has played good defense when the culture was there… When Chauncey came over in 2008, on Team USA…

    I think you build around Chandler and Melo (3rd star, Howard a pipe dream but would obviously be incredible with Chandler) with a defensive coach.

  39. ruruland

    ess-dog: Well sure, it does makes sense that he could completely overhaul his game in his 15th season. I hope he’s eligible for the All-Star game…

    Absurd… But you can still recover from it if you unload him this year or the off-season.

    The longer you wait the worse it’s going to get.

  40. ess-dog

    The only hope is that all of these things happen:

    -Shumpert becomes a real point guard, probably next year.

    -Landry returns to his old form on offense and just tightens up a little on defense.

    -TD becomes a halfway decent 6th man again.

    -Jorts becomes a semi-decent 3rd big, probably next year.

    -We use next year’s midlevel WISELY and get an underrated guard or bench forward.

    Then we’re still no more than a 4th seed in the east, depending on trades.

  41. tenebrous

    play lin play lin play lin … hes fast and should b able to play with stat in a pnr and shump as 2

  42. njasdjdh

    tenebrous:
    what happened to the new uniforms we were suppose to get? does anyone know?

    They were shipped to Melo’s house, but he’s refusing to share them.

  43. ess-dog

    Here are some cool stats:

    -Gallo’s 2nd in the league in steals so far with 23.

    -Our buddy Al Harrington has a .624 eFG, yowza!

    -Ty Lawson is 17th in the league in WS48 at .204 just ahead of Melo.

    -Shumpert has the 3rd highest steal pct in the league at 4.

    -The Nets have 2 rotation players shooting over .450 from three. We have none.

  44. tenebrous

    njasdjdh: They were shipped to Melo’s house, but he’s refusing to share them.

    no seriously I y can’t we have some new uniforms? really.

  45. bobneptune

    Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta): But without him, this team is unwatchable.

    with all due respect, you are picking nits. i probably should have known after a game like this there would be nit picking and said “they shipped the entire team to denver so they have no depth left” rather than ” the rest of the team is in denver” but i’m fairly clear the sentiment was clear to ray charles.

    the fact of the matter is the melo trade rejuvenated the denver franchise and has ruined the knick franchise in the present and moving forward. all so melo could get “his” money and jimmy d could raise prices through the roof.

  46. bobneptune

    ruruland: ;)

    I thought Amar’e was going off tonight without the ball stopper?

    amar’e isn’t going off on anyone unless he has a point that can run the pnr and is surrounded with a bunch of 3 point shooters that can space the floor for him. it also is a big help to him when the other team’s 5 has to guard him. :-)

  47. Shad0wF0x

    Is there any chance that people stop buying tickets to go to Knicks games? At the very least the fans can hurt Dolan in the one place possible.

  48. Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta)

    Shad0wF0x:
    Is there any chance that people stop buying tickets to go to Knicks games? At the very least the fans can hurt Dolan in the one place possible.

    The Knicks make up 2% of Cablevision’s corporate earnings. It’s literally impossible to hurt him financially by boycotting the games, alas.

    It’d be like if you went fishing through my couch for loose change and thought that by pilfering the odd nickel, you’d hinder my ability to pay rent for the month.

  49. bobneptune

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
    Heaven forbid any of these guys get real burn.

    Balkman is a good player. He is a good player who makes dumb mistakes, true, but he is still a good player. Sending him to Siberia every time he makes a dumb mistake is a poor usage of his talent. At the end of the day, he gives more than he takes.

    Jordan should also see some playing time. Heck, even Lin. Okay, maybe not Lin.

    just out of curiosity…. what is balkman’s particular “talent” that george karl and d’antoni have thus far failed to recognize. :-)

  50. Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta)

    bobneptune: with all due respect, you are picking nits. i probably should have known after a game like this there would be nit picking and said “they shipped the entire team to denver so they have no depth left” rather than ” the rest of the team is in denver” but i’m fairly clear the sentiment was clear to ray charles.

    No, Bob. You’re wrong. And you’re misrepresenting what I said (again). I made the comment b/c the general perception exists that the Nugs are winning w/the Knicks castoffs. And it’s not true. Gallo’s a big part of it, but they drafted REALLY well (Lawson, Faried) and made some smart FA signings/trades (Afflalo, [amazingly] Harrington, Miller for Felton, Brewer/Fernandez for cap space).

    You’re still claiming that my comment was intended to refute the fact that the Melo trade seems to be a big win for Denver. That’s false. Please stop doing that.

    I’ve never made that point. I agree with your assertion about the problems of the Melo trade. Heck, I made the same comment when the trade went down last year: http://knickerblogger.net/goodbye-ee-part-3-gallo/

    I’m sorry if you think the fact that I made a fairly benign comment about where the ex-Knicks are actually playing is “Nit-picking.” You’re just wrong in this instance, and is often the case, when someone points out that you’re wrong, you double down, with a sense of self-aggrandizing persecution and self-righteousness that is frankly, annoying, with all due respect.

  51. ruruland

    bobneptune: with all due respect, you are picking nits. i probably should have known after a game like this there would be nit picking and said “they shipped the entire team to denver so they have no depth left” rather than ” the rest of the team is in denver” but i’m fairly clear the sentiment was clear to ray charles.the fact of the matter is the melo trade rejuvenated the denver franchise and has ruined the knick franchise in the present and moving forward. all so melo could get “his” money and jimmy d could raise prices through the roof.

    Denver was really, really good before it was clear Melo wanted out…

    they’ve won some regular season games since the trade. awesome.

  52. ruruland

    bobneptune: amar’e isn’t going off on anyone unless he has a point that can run the pnr and is surrounded with a bunch of 3 point shooters that can space the floor for him. it also is a big help to him when the other team’s 5 has to guard him. :-)

    My point exactly…..

  53. bobneptune

    mase:
    The celtics need to get younger, maybe we can pry ray Allen off them somehow ?

    well the only possibilities are trading either melo or amar’e since we are over the cap. chandler could be traded 90 days after his signing.

    doesn’t look very promising……i personally think we should trade melo to sacramento just out of spite.

  54. ruruland

    Robert Silverman (@BobSaietta): No, Bob. You’re wrong. And you’re misrepresenting what I said (again). I made the comment b/c the general perception exists that the Nugs are winning w/the Knicks castoffs. And it’s not true. Gallo’s a big part of it, but they drafted REALLY well (Lawson, Faried) and made some smart FA signings/trades (Afflalo, [amazingly] Harrington, Miller for Felton, Brewer/Fernandez for cap space). You’re still claiming that my comment was intended to refute the fact that the Melo trade seems to be a big win for Denver. That’s false. Please stop doing that.I’ve never made that point. I agree with your assertion about the problems of the Melo trade. Heck, I made the same comment when the trade went down last year: http://knickerblogger.net/goodbye-ee-part-3-gallo/I’m sorry if you think the fact that I made a fairly benign comment about where the ex-Knicks are actually playing is “Nit-picking.” You’re just wrong in this instance, and is often the case, when someone points out that you’re wrong, you double down, with a sense of self-aggrandizing persecution and self-righteousness that is frankly, annoying, with all due respect.

    Not sure how big of a win it’s for Denver’s franchise because it’s convinced George Karl that they can win without a star player… which of course is going to be refuted every year until course is changed.

  55. ruruland

    bobneptune: well the only possibilities are trading either melo or amar’e since we are over the cap. chandler could be traded 90 days after his signing.doesn’t look very promising……i personally think we should trade melo to sacramento just out of spite.

    Why would you trade Melo over Amar’e outside of your personal vendetta?

  56. Juany8

    Why do people pretend the “Knuggets” are better than the Nuggets were with Melo? When Chauncey came they made the Western Conference playoffs the first year, where they gave the Lakers the hardest series they had that playoffs. Then they had a really good team going, and were considered the second best team in the west and a strong contender for the Western Conference before George Karl got cancer and the team fell apart under Adrian Dantley. The Knuggets got dominated by an OKC team that didn’t challenge Dallas too strongly later that playoffs. They were nowhere close to contenders. It’s yet to be seen where they’ll end up this year, but their best case scenario is getting home court and winning one round this year. Depth and a strong transition game wins lots of regular season games, it doesn’t do as great in the playoffs.

  57. ruruland

    Juany8: Why do people pretend the “Knuggets” are better than the Nuggets were with Melo? When Chauncey came they made the Western Conference playoffs the first year, where they gave the Lakers the hardest series they had that playoffs. Then they had a really good team going, and were considered the second best team in the west and a strong contender for the Western Conference before George Karl got cancer and the team fell apart under Adrian Dantley. The Knuggets got dominated by an OKC team that didn’t challenge Dallas too strongly later that playoffs. They were nowhere close to contenders. It’s yet to be seen where they’ll end up this year, but their best case scenario is getting home court and winning one round this year. Depth and a strong transition game wins lots of regular season games, it doesn’t do as great in the playoffs.

    Precisely… Check Denver’s winning percentage from the time Chauncey arrived to when Karl got cancer…..

    When they had both Melo and Chauncey in the lineup I’m quite sure they won more than 70 percent of their games..

    It wasn’t just the Karl cancer in 2010 that started the slide, but a ton of injuries to the frontcourt that persisted through the Jazz series (and was the biggest reason they failed to advance).

    Everyone wanted Melo back, but it was theway that series played out that convinced Melo to force his dream of playing in NY…..

    He went about that move, however, in thewrong way as we know.

  58. bobneptune

    ruruland: Denver was really, really good before it was clear Melo wanted out…

    they’ve won some regular season games since the trade. awesome.

    denver was facing the zombie apocalypse like cleveland with melo possibly leaving for nothing and decimating the team.

    facing that, their ownership fleeced jimmy d for greater than equal value when his only leverage was jimmy d’s addicted personality’s impetuosity. jimmy d needed to have his new toy and he wanted it now!

    denver went from facing the abyss to being a younger , deep 50 win team stockpiled with extra draft picks for the foreseeable future.

    wouldn’t you switch franchises with denver now if you could?

    that is awesome.

  59. ruruland

    bobneptune: denver was facing the zombie apocalypse like cleveland with melo possibly leaving for nothing and decimating the team.facing that, their ownership fleeced jimmy d for greater than equal value when his only leverage was jimmy d’s addicted personality’s impetuosity. jimmy d needed to have his new toy and he wanted it now!denver went from facing the abyss to being a younger , deep 50 win team stockpiled with extra draft picks for the foreseeable future. wouldn’t you switch franchises with denver now if you could?that is awesome.

    Trust me, I understand the argument… Denver is certainly positioned well moving forward, but so often we see young teams without a star to build around start handing out contracts to maintain cohesiveness and overpaying FA to shore up weaknesses, all because the teams ability to win in the pos-season is overestimated.

    We saw a lot of that with Portland, in my estimation. Denver is going to give Gallo a nice contract, and then Lawson, overpay a FA C, be starless, and they’ll be in for a much longer rebuild than the Knicks……They’ll be an excellent regular season team, as so many of Karl’s pre- Melo, virtually starless clubs were, and get killed in the postseason. (unless they get lucky in the draft)

    Karl is a great coach in many ways, but he’s always tried to change the NBA paradigm to fit his philosophy of basketball— which overlaps with his days at North Carolina and his own career as a pro.

    It’s a big part of the reason Denver never maximized its talent with Melo… Karl simply didn’t care and I think at a subconsicous level actually wanted a lot of those teams to fail….

    Now, Denver would certainly not be in an abyss had they signed Melo… With Martin’s contract coming off the books they would have been positioned to re-sign Nene and add another piece to a really…

  60. Shad0wF0x

    @83

    Well that just unfortunate to hear. It’d be nice of them to charge ticket prices based on how the team is doing but I guess I’d be asking for too much.

  61. ruruland

    excellent club. That argument notwithstanding, the Knicks are still positioned to “win” the trade, so long as they unload Amar’e and begin to build a defensive team around Chandler, Shumpert and Melo….. that will require a coaching change, of course….

    As a Denver fan, I’d love both teams to win the trade.. But,as is, I see significant flaws in both approaches….

    New York acquiescing to Dolan ( I suppose) and Denver to Karl….That’s a part of it.

  62. bobneptune

    Juany8:
    Why do people pretend the “Knuggets” are better than the Nuggets were with Melo?

    because melo was never, never resigning with denver and the lopsided trade with the knicks will keep the knuggets a 50 win team for a very long time moving forward.

    had denver not been able to dump melo and billups for plus players like gallo, felton and chandler (they still hold his rights when he returns from china in march and ignoring mozgov and the 3 picks from the knicks) do you ever think nene and afflalo would have resigned?

    the question isn’t whether the knuggets are better than the nuggets with melo, because moving forward, the nuggets were never going to have melo on their roster.

    denver turned a chicken poop situation into a lovely chicken salad buffet.

  63. bobneptune

    Now, Denver would certainly not be in an abyss had they signed Melo… With Martin’s contract coming off the books they would have been positioned to re-sign Nene and add another piece to a really…

    melo had made it abundantly clear he was never resigning with denver so this line of thinking is moot.

    denver had to trade melo to someone for the best they could get, and the found a recovering addict who wasn’t a very good poker player.

  64. ruruland

    bobneptune: because melo was never, never resigning with denver and the lopsided trade with the knicks will keep the knuggets a 50 win team for a very long time moving forward. had denver not been able to dump melo and billups for plus players like gallo, felton and chandler (they still hold his rights when he returns from china in march and ignoring mozgov and the 3 picks from the knicks) do you ever think nene and afflalo would have resigned?the question isn’t whether the knuggets are better than the nuggets with melo, because moving forward, the nuggets were never going to have melo on their roster.denver turned a chicken poop situation into a lovely chicken salad buffet.

    That’s a really conveniant assumption you base your entire argument on. It’s an argument absent the perspective of someone who followed the Nuggets intently throughout the Melo years.

    Melo, as you may understand, signed two contracts in Denver… You don’t understand the nuances and intracies involved in Melo’s decision to leave…..Much of it had to do with a reluctance from ownership to go deep into the luxury tax in 2009 to build a team that could beat the Lakers, his relationship with Karl, the loss of assistant Tim G., and of course the engrained memories of playoff failures…..

    Those were all clearly significant as Melo implied after the Jazz playoff series, before during and after the trade ordeal.

  65. bobneptune

    ruruland:
    excellent club. That argument notwithstanding, the Knicksare still positioned to “win” the trade, so long as they unload Amar’e and begin to build a defensive team around Chandler, Shumpert and Melo….. that will require a coaching change, of course….

    how are the knicks supposed to “unload” a max contract for the next 4 years on a player with an uninsurable contract who has had microfracture surgery?

    inquiring mind’s want to know! who want’s the privileged of paying amar’e 21.6 million in 2014 and 23.6 million in 2015 when the luxury tax goes through the roof?

  66. bobneptune

    ruruland: That’s a really conveniant assumption you base your entire argument on. It’s an argument absent the perspective of someone who followed the Nuggets intently throughout the Melo years.

    its not like i made that up. melo made that abundantly clear last season. there isn’t a chance in the world denver was going to ignore melo’s threats of leaving and end up like cleveland getting 2 , #2 picks for lebron. denver was moving him to the highest bidder.

    that they were able to get jimmy d to take billups off their hands along with balkman and the others saved them 10-20 million and a ticklish pr situation with the denver fan base.,

  67. bobneptune

    ruruland: Why would you trade Melo over Amar’e outside of your personal vendetta?

    i said that in response to someone who suggested trading for ray allen from boston. since the knicks are over the cap, the only way they could get ray allen is by trading amar’e or melo since no other combination of knick’s contracts would equal 75% of allen’s 10,000,000.

    i wasn’t suggesting the knicks do that…. i was merely pointing out it was highly unlikely as melo or amar’e would have to be moved to make the salaries work out.

    and i have no “vendetta” against amar’e (who i like very much. it isn’t his fault the knicks are a mismatched roto team as presently constructed) or melo. my vendetta is against jimmy d for not calling melo’s and denver’s management’s bluff and not agreeing to anything til an hour before the trade deadline.

    from the knick’s perspective… what’s the worst thing that could have happened?

  68. Juany8

    Did Cleveland really come out that badly? And is Denver coming out as well as we imagine? Denver is going to go forward with a core of Lawson, Afflalo, Gallinari, and Nene. That will be a nice, entertaining line up capable of winning a fair amount of games for a long time. Realistically, they’re nowhere close to the star studded lineups the Clippers and Thunder have going forward, and this season the Nuggets might not be capable of beating out the veteran teams in the west this year. They’re basically going to be a worse version of the Suns when they still had Amar’e, a team that will have to scrape and fight just to be able to lose in the second round.

    Cleveland on the other hand, totally bottomed out, got 2 top 4 picks, and have several more lottery picks in the coming years. Although there’s no guarantee that those picks will pan out, they’re going to be able to build around rookie contracts while being able to easily add more expensive veteran since they’ll have cap space. Basically they went all out on the Sam Presti rebuilding strategy and have a pretty nice outlook going forward. The Nuggets will definitely be better the next 3-4 years, but if the ultimate goal is a championship, those 3-4 years will be wasted for the Nuggets while the Cavs have the blank slate needed to build something lasting.

  69. ruruland

    bobneptune: how are the knicks supposed to “unload” a max contract for the next 4 years on a player with an uninsurable contract who has had microfracture surgery?inquiring mind’s want to know! who want’s the privileged of paying amar’e 21.6 million in 2014 and 23.6 million in 2015 when the luxury tax goes through the roof?

    Right. I get this of course… he needs to have a huge run when Baron gets back and play well in the postseason…

  70. ruruland

    bobneptune: its not like i made that up. melo made that abundantly clear last season. there isn’t a chance in the world denver was going to ignore melo’s threats of leaving and end up like cleveland getting 2 , #2 picks for lebron. denver was moving him to the highest bidder.that they were able to get jimmy d to take billups off their hands along with balkman and the others saved them 10-20 million and a ticklish pr situation with the denver fan base.,

    I’m with you as is everyone else.

  71. ruruland

    Juany8: Did Cleveland really come out that badly? And is Denver coming out as well as we imagine? Denver is going to go forward with a core of Lawson, Afflalo, Gallinari, and Nene. That will be a nice, entertaining line up capable of winning a fair amount of games for a long time. Realistically, they’re nowhere close to the star studded lineups the Clippers and Thunder have going forward, and this season the Nuggets might not be capable of beating out the veteran teams in the west this year. They’re basically going to be a worse version of the Suns when they still had Amar’e, a team that will have to scrape and fight just to be able to lose in the second round.Cleveland on the other hand, totally bottomed out, got 2 top 4 picks, and have several more lottery picks in the coming years. Although there’s no guarantee that those picks will pan out, they’re going to be able to build around rookie contracts while being able to easily add more expensive veteran since they’ll have cap space. Basically they went all out on the Sam Presti rebuilding strategy and have a pretty nice outlook going forward. The Nuggets will definitely be better the next 3-4 years, but if the ultimate goal is a championship, those 3-4 years will be wasted for the Nuggets while the Cavs have the blank slate needed to build something lasting.

    excellent post

  72. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Did Cleveland really come out that badly? And is Denver coming out as well as we imagine? Denver is going to go forward with a core of Lawson, Afflalo, Gallinari, and Nene. That will be a nice, entertaining line up capable of winning a fair amount of games for a long time. Realistically, they’re nowhere close to the star studded lineups the Clippers and Thunder have going forward, and this season the Nuggets might not be capable of beating out the veteran teams in the west this year. They’re basically going to be a worse version of the Suns when they still had Amar’e, a team that will have to scrape and fight just to be able to lose in the second round.

    Cleveland on the other hand, totally bottomed out, got 2 top 4 picks, and have several more lottery picks in the coming years. Although there’s no guarantee that those picks will pan out, they’re going to be able to build around rookie contracts while being able to easily add more expensive veteran since they’ll have cap space. Basically they went all out on the Sam Presti rebuilding strategy and have a pretty nice outlook going forward. The Nuggets will definitely be better the next 3-4 years, but if the ultimate goal is a championship, those 3-4 years will be wasted for the Nuggets while the Cavs have the blank slate needed to build something lasting.

    Of course you’d take Denver’s team going forward. Did anyone predict the Mavericks to win the NBA title last year? Of course not. They said the same things about the Mavericks that you’re saying about the Nuggets – that they were a team that will have a good regular season and then scrape and fight to lose in the second round. However, as the Mavericks (and the Suns the year before) show us is that all you need to do is get into the playoffs (preferably at a high seed in the first round) and then who knows what will happen? Heck, the Melo Nuggets are even a good example! Perennial one and done for years until one year they almost made it to the Finals. The Jazz in 2007 is another example. Look at all the different teams that have made the Western Conference FInals these past few years!

    Meanwhile, what’s the success rate of teams bottoming out to get high draft picks? The Clippers did it for close to 20 years and it just recently finally paid off because they had the good fortune to pick #1 in a year with a real #1 (and even then, it also required the NBA vetoing an agreed-upon trade!). The Cavs just picked #1 in a year without a real #1. They also picked 4th in a year without much of a #4, either. For every Derrick Rose, there’s a John Wall. For every Dwight Howard, there’s an Andrew Bogut (who is a lot better than the other examples i’m giving for bad #1’s, but still, you know what I mean). For every Lebron James, there’s an Andrea Bargnani. For every Kevin Durant, there’s a Greg Oden. For every Dwyane Wade, there’s a Darko Milicic. For every Chris Paul, there’s a Marvin Williams. For every Tim Duncan, there’s a Michael Olowokandi. For every Blake Griffin, there’s a Kwame Brown. There’s certainly great things to be had in bottoming out to draft a superstar, but the odds are pretty poor in return for being a terrible team for years.

    So no, I would much much rather have a team playing .667 ball and getting a, what, a #3 seed? A #4 seed? than having a team bottom out when there’s no clear game-changing player on the horizon (and even if there were, the odds would be against you getting that player). Heck, Cleveland is not even bad enough to be an odds-on favorite for a top 3 pick this upcoming draft!

    So what you have is two approaches that both require some good luck. One approach, though, allows you to watch a really good team for years and the other forces you to watch a shitty team for years. I’m taking the former every day of the week and twice on Sundays. And that’s not even counting the possibility of Denver trading multiple players for a single “star” player in the upcoming years.

  73. iserp

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): For every Lebron James, there’s an Andrea Bargnani. For every Kevin Durant, there’s a Greg Oden. For every Dwyane Wade, there’s a Darko Milicic. For every Chris Paul, there’s a Marvin Williams. For every Tim Duncan, there’s a Michael Olowokandi.

    I think that wasn’t the point.

    As NBA salaries are structured… rookie scale salaries are much more favorable to a NBA team. And since the point is to accumulate as much talent as possible to win it all; the best you can do is to draft rookies for 2 or 3 years, let them play together, to know themselves… and then add veteran players with all the cap space of all the contracts that ended during those 2 or 3 years.

    Denver Nuggets traded talent for depth, and it is working for them. Also, i believe that their players have a good personality and are very coachable by Karl, that has done a really good job of having the team working in such a little time (they kept Ty Lawson, Harrington, Nene, and Afflalo, but the rest of the roster seems really different from previous years). So most analysts had the going very high.

    NY traded depth for talent. And in the short run is not working… but that was kind of expected. D’Antoni can’t work as good as Karl since he has glaring holes in the lineup (namely the guard position), and has always to hide that fact (Melo playing point forward, putting SGs at the PG position, forgetting about team play and going all the time to ISOs). It’s not only that D’Antoni “needs Nash” to make his teams work, but that every coach needs someone semi-competent in every position so the team (as a whole) works. All this “the wole is more than the sum of its parts”

  74. iserp

    About Dallas, it is not like they were given a 0% chance every year of being champions. They were like 10-12 years winning 50 or more games each season. They just had a different route. They had Dirk Nowitzki and decided to build around him, adding as many players as possible. If those players didn’t work, they traded for more players… adding payroll systematically. In the end, they had a very high payroll. Unlike most teams, they got that high payroll trading systematically, not because their rookies finished their rookie scale contracts. This way they built gradually around Dirk. It’s not like the championship team was much better than the team two years ago, or this one much worse. Perhaps they won by a combination of talent, luck, balance of the team, and years of playing together.

    I have to point out that the other team adding payroll systematically was NY under Isiah Thomas, the main difference is that Dallas always care of getting contracts that would be tradable in the future (all this contracts with a non guaranteed final year… Erick Dampier, for example)

    Going back to the current situation. Denver is in a good position… but since in playoffs starters count much more than bench players, they will have to trade for talent if they want to go deep in the playoffs. The Knicks need time of playing together and some balance of the team; hopefully Baron Davis will make the Knicks look more respectable towards the end of the season, but i wouldn’t put my hopes too high. We’re very well set going to the future, we just need to build around our core …. perhaps we will need 2 or 3 years to be a real contender, just don’t trade Amare now for peanuts! This team is always going to be a very dangerous playoff team, even if we fall to the 8th seed.

  75. Ben R

    I don’t buy the argument that Denver losing in the first round last year was proof that their team isn’t built to win in the playoffs. The Nuggets had a great record after the trade deadline last year but the Thunder had an even better record. The Thunder were the hottest team in the NBA going into last years playoffs and made it into the finals where they lost to the eventual NBA champions. Denver didn’t lose to a bad team they lost to a better team a team that is still better and possibly the best team in the NBA.

    It is the same as the argument about D’Antoni’s Suns being “not built for the playoffs” it is bogus. The Suns, like the Nuggets, were a good team who lost to better teams not because they “weren’t built for the playoffs” but because they were simply not as good as the teams that beat them.

    As for the Nuggets future I think they are as good moving forward as any team without a top 5 player (LeBron, Howard, Paul, Wade, Durant/Rose). Denver has never had the opportunity to get a top 5 player so instead they built a great team. Top 5 players usually win but the Nuggets are built to challenge the best teams as well as anybody else.

  76. mase

    As unpopular as it may sound we need a third scorer to balance the offensive attack and create consistency. Fields is not that guy as we know, nor is Douglas who is an ideal 6th man. Iman is too raw and young to have to rely on for that role… They brought in Bibby to fill that need and then shortly after baron who as we all know will be injured again.
    As unpopular a decision to make a run at Arenas would be I think the results would justify the P.R. Hit the team would take.
    Right now there is ‘no flow to the O’ and without a balanced attack there ain’t no team chemistry, only losing ways… Hypothetically, if we could pull of a Howard for Tyson trade it would be ideal but that’s not happening anytime soon so having a third scorer would have an instant impact. We will all see that to be true when baron comes back for a limited time only, and then we lose him again come playoffs and we are forced to sign arenas. Why not do it now while we still hold the cards in our favor?

  77. iserp

    Denver’s proble isn’t that his team is worse in the playoffs… but that other teams can play his starters more time. Nowitzki played 34 minutes per game during the season, but almost 40 during the playoffs. Durant averaged 42 minutes against the nuggets in the playoffs. How many minutes were averaging D-Wade, Bosh and Lebron James last year in the playoffs?

    What i am saying is not that Denver is not built for the playoffs, but that in the regular season, they have the advantage of depth, but that isn’t a real advantage during the playoffs. In the playoffs, team play with their 7-8 best players for the most time. Denver has some really nice players, but what use is to have such a large bench except to eat cap space once playoffs arrive?

  78. d-mar

    I just don’t get the constant pronouncements about how the Knicks’ model doesn’t work, how we all wish we had Denver’s roster, we need to dump STAT etc. etc, AFTER 12 GAMES, many of which we were missing key players (Shump, STAT, Melo) If we’re getting our butts kicked in late Feb. with a full roster (including Davis) then it’s time to worry. But do you really think we’re seeing the best the Knicks have to offer right now? They’re 6-6 and should be 7-5 or even 8-4, but the world is not coming to an end, give it a little bit of time. Boston is struggling mightily and their best player Pierce is off to the worst start of his career and the Heat just lost 3 in a row out West. It’s a weird season that will take time to take shape, patience my brothers.

  79. ruruland

    Ben R: I don’t buy the argument that Denver losing in the first round last year was proof that their team isn’t built to win in the playoffs. The Nuggets had a great record after the trade deadline last year but the Thunder had an even better record. The Thunder were the hottest team in the NBA going into last years playoffs and made it into the finals where they lost to the eventual NBA champions. Denver didn’t lose to a bad team they lost to a better team a team that is still better and possibly the best team in the NBA. It is the same as the argument about D’Antoni’s Suns being “not built for the playoffs” it is bogus. The Suns, like the Nuggets, were a good team who lost to better teams not because they “weren’t built for the playoffs” but because they were simply not as good as the teams that beat them.As for the Nuggets future I think they are as good moving forward as any team without a top 5 player (LeBron, Howard, Paul, Wade, Durant/Rose). Denver has never had the opportunity to get a top 5 player so instead they built a great team. Top 5 players usually win but the Nuggets are built to challenge the best teams as well as anybody else.

    Perhaps… But if you actually watched the games you’d understand that a lack of an individual offensive talent did them in three of their losses in the 4th quarter, and was clearly apparent throughout the series as the team had a very difficult time creating good looks in the half-court… even with great ball-handling, spacing and shooters.

  80. ruruland

    iserp: Denver’s proble isn’t that his team is worse in the playoffs… but that other teams can play his starters more time. Nowitzki played 34 minutes per game during the season, but almost 40 during the playoffs. Durant averaged 42 minutes against the nuggets in the playoffs. How many minutes were averaging D-Wade, Bosh and Lebron James last year in the playoffs?What i am saying is not that Denver is not built for the playoffs, but that in the regular season, they have the advantage of depth, but that isn’t a real advantage during the playoffs. In the playoffs, team play with their 7-8 best players for the most time. Denver has some really nice players, but what use is to have such a large bench except to eat cap space once playoffs arrive?

    correct…. The game slows down in the playoffs for myriad reasons… That’s why Denver won’t be as good in such a setting. It’s a diminishing returns deal with possessions, too.

    Denver plays perfectly to its depth by playing a ton of possessions.

    It’s much easier to slow the game down in the playoffs.

    Top-heavy teams are better able to produce max effort games in the playoffs, negating the advantages of deeper teams.

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