2012 Game Thread: Knicks @ Hawks
April 22nd, 2012 by Thomas B. | Comments | Permalink |
New York ( 33-30) take on Atlanta ( 38-25). Atlanta has been strong at home going 21-9 while New York (12-19) hasn’t fared well on the road. The 6th seed is still in play, but a loss today eliminates any chance of New York moving up.
Your in-game thought here.
@Don't bother; I don't tweet
Baron’s back
Tank Tank!
Prediction: this will be the lightest game thread of the Carmelo era. I’ll set the over/under on comments at 51.5
Tyson on the bench?
I like the idea of Melo at the 4 and Amare at the 5, but in all seriousness Tyson will be on the floor when it counts, right?
Baron playing like shit. Melo with 2 blown layups and a missed contested J. Knicks look terrible.
I really wish Chandler would have started and played about 20 minutes today. They really need to form some sort of continuity with the big 3 before the playoffs.
Wow Chandler would have stuffed Marvin Williams. Goodbye stat. 2 fouls. First one was a dumb one out in the perimeter.
Hawks are going to score 120 today with Tyson out. Looks like we are in full tank mode. I should stop posting so Z’s prediction will come through.
51.5. Funny that is also the over/under for how many points the Knicks will give up by the end of the 1st quarter.
Lol even Knickerblogger is tanking.
Wow they just called us the better defensive teams. Oh come on Shump!!!
Without TC we can’t stop penetration. This is disappointing.
Come on Knicks , finish the play!
Clyde talking up Amare coming off the bench..
Lol Bibby and Novak the defending duo on the break. Now that’s funny.
Wow STAT welcome back, I missed you so much.
Doris Burke is a actually a pretty decent commentator.
I’m supposed to be rooting against the Knicks, right?
Amare looks pathetic on defense.
STAT was doing better defensively before he got injured, bad timing and even his hair shows how quickly he’s returned to his old self.
So we’re tanking to get the Bulls? That’s OK
Why not try for the 6th seed?
Earl is a defensive beast!
Glad to see how healthy and spry Amare looks.
Stat ha such a low basketball IQ. Does a lot of boneheaded things out there, and not just on defense. He’s goofy. His turnovers are just clumsy. Some of it might be rust, but we’ve seen this kind of play from him. Man if they could trade him for Gerald Wallace and Kris humphries, I would be ecstatic. Shit stat and Lin for humphries and d willy in a sign and trade. Sigh. Only in dreams.
I’d rather get the 6th or 8th seed but if I was a betting man, we’d probably get 7th and lose to the Heat in 4-5 games.
At least he has been effective on a few PnR’s with JR and looks spry and relatively quick…he doesn’t look as stiff as the STAT from beginning to middle of season, if not quite as explosive as STAT prior to disc injury on March 24th. Clearly a step slow defensively but his mistakes are being magnified without Chandler in there today. I am just glad he looks relatively healthy and can move somewhat (i.e. not robotic).
Btw, some of Bibby’s entry passes into the post to feed STAT were the worst I have ever seen.
Yep but looks like we might get the Bulls after all, no D rose for the rest of the season. And if we kick everything into another gear we beat them. Whoever plays the Knicks this year is doomed anyway.
Shumpert needs those three trips on permanent loop in his head:
1.) Nice jump shot.
2.) Fine drive to the hoop.
3.) Made both FTs.
You know, I’ve thought a lot about Amare’s defensive IQ. Is it possible that its related to the severe lack of coaching he’s had?
Consider:
High School: He jumps around from school to school, never really getting consistent instruction. His short time at Mt. Zion was probably the best and most consistent coaching he got. Regardless, a player of his caliber doesn’t get pushed a lot on defensive concepts in high school. Block Shots. Dunk. Rinse. Repeat.
NBA: Frank Johnson for one season, then D’Antoni. We know what a disaster D’Antoni is, so no need to elaborate. Gets Gentry for two years, then comes back to D’Antoni. I don’t know a great deal about Johnson and Gentry, but neither are known as fantastic defensive coaches.
I have to wonder how much a full camp and a season with Woody and Tyson would mean to his defensive growth.
I love Shump but it’s too bad he has that tunnel vision when he drives. He had Melo for an easy lay up on his (Shump’s) last drive that got blocked.
Safe to say the defense is a tad not as good without Chandler in there…Hawks 8-10 on 3′s and 20-36 shooting overall.
I hate watching games like this. Defense is beyond atrocious. Rest of the regular season is going to be like this unfortunately.
he’s been pretty decent on offense, just rusty… but on defense, the Knicks have allowed Teague to drive straight to the rim without no contest a billion times, it’s driving me crazy, honestly.
the Knicks are a pretty bad lottery team without Chandler.
agreed….and honestly, while his offense has been good today, so far Shumpert’s D has left a lot to be desired, surprisingly…several times Teague has just blown by him easily without much resistance….JR actually has probably been the one dude I have seen out there showing a lot of defensive effort thus far.
You know, Shump is a very good defender, but no guard can be a good defender without good interior D to back him up.
This may be why for years Knicks’ perimeter defense has been so putrid.
Without interior help, guards must sag back to avoid getting beat on the drive, which leaves the shooter open.
Hawks started out raining threes. When the guards went out to D up, there were a lot of drive bys.
yeah, much of what Shumpert does so well is direct guys driving to where Chandler is… but wiith Amare at the 5, nobody is there to help him.
Teague is so fast that it’s impossible for a much bigger guard, like Shump, to stay in front of him 100% of the time.
The triples, which are really the difference in the game, aren’t so much a direct reflection on Chandler. Not many if any are drive and kick. They’ve been pull ups and based on ball rotation.
When ATL has penetrated it’s been for scores. That’s a problem, but it’s hardly unique to NY. I doubt you can find a team without a bonafide shot blocker that stops penetration. For that matter, it’s not just Chandler, it’s also Jeffries.
I usually like Doris Burks but she’s way overstating the point about Tyson Chandler. Sure, he’s holding people accountable but that’s marginally important. It’s more about the fact that opponents respect him — and they also respect Jeffries. Those guys discourage forays into the lane. ATL is also shooting lights out from deep. They’re not that good.
Also, have we even played ATL this season? If so, it was early. It’s clear that we need to adjust the scouting report. I’m sure we knew he could drive, but he really loves to go left. We’ve been shading him to where he wants to go I think.
…and Amare just isn’t of the defensive mindset. He’s a bit slow to react, first, because he’s rusty, but also because he’s in foul trouble.
If I’m a ticket holder, I’m a little ticked that the Knicks may not be putting their best effort forward
We played them in Atlanta a few weeks ago and lost. Give you 3 guesses who destroyed us in the 4th quarter. Give up? Willie Green (probably your first guess).
I think there’s no chance to beat Chi, but a puncher’s chance of hanging with Miami.
Rose coloered glasses:
Melo, at his best, can come as close to offsetting LeBron as anyone. Amare can at least out score Bosh. Chandler is better than anything they have at C. The Knicks have better depth. Miami’s half court offense is questionable. Miami has awful karma; they may pay forever for this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9BqUBYaHlM
“You know, Shump is a very good defender, but no guard can be a good defender without good interior D to back him up.”
That’s a point that was mentioned on a weekly basis during the Isiah era….
Very true I think….
Shump struggles in a few areas pretty consistently.
Hopefully Fields can get on track
Holy Crap. Fields just made a 3. Mark down this day.
Two 3′s? In a row? The wonders never cease.
Doris Burke is an idiot.
Damn d-mar. I had repressed that. Thanks for making me re-live that pain.
Buy one, get one free! Today only!
Hell has frozen over, Fiels just made 2 3pters in a row.
Maybe if we could hypnotize Fields for playoff games into believing we’re playing a meaningless game in Atlanta, he’d be pretty effective.
Landry Novak?
ahh shit. Its the return of the jump shot…
Woodson better not try to win this game in the 4th quarter.
Disagree. I like Burke. She doesn’t overpower the game and CAN be insightful. You gotta watch her across college and NBA. It’s clear she knows college better, so you get more nuance. In the NBA she doesn’t know any one team that well. So she stays on a single valid point until it gets blown out of proportion.
It’s because Spike has his “Muddy” Fields jersey on. He got away from that for awhile, just like Landry got away from playing well.
Why would anyone who has a choice listen to Doris Burke when Clyde is on?
Consecutive 3′s by Fields? That is like a solar eclipse or something, no?
Amare is a terrible defender. Just terrible.
Announcer: “Let’s see what Larry Drew ‘drew up’ for a play after the timeout.”
Joe Johnson: dribble, dribble, dribble….shoots contested long-two that clanks off rim.
God DAMMIT Baron Davis with the lazy passes!
Holy shit. Fields hits third three
I hate Baron. And I hate whoever made the decision not to cut Bibby for a living, breathing pg.
She just mentioned that Landry Fields is a guy who hits open shots twice in a matter of 3 minutes.
Fields hit two threes?
Behind on dvr lol
Melo needs to dunk there and force a foul
That was true last year. Not surprisingly, she doesn’t know the personnel.
Three threes straight
It was nice of Amare to just stand and watch while Melo battled the entire Atl frontcourt for an offensive RB
Even Charles Smith is shaking his head after that effort.
In her defense, Landry is 6-6, with three straight threes,so tonight he’s hitting his open jays.
Fields!! and 1
Shocking.
Knicks out boarding Hawks
7-7 now
I had said previously that Lin was the team’s MVP, but there’s no doubt it’s Chandler. There must be so many things he does that don’t show in his stats.
Ouch
I guess 15 minutes of cursory research on the team she’d be covering today is asking too much.
I could point out quite a few other ridiculous statements.
It has nothing to do with her being a woman. A lot of announcers are at her level or worse. But she sucks.
Fields coming to life just in time for the stretch run….wait, don’t we want to lose the rest of our games? Landry can’t do anything right this season!
Amare is irritating.
and Baron might be my most hated Knick since Jamal Crawford, and that’s saying a lot.
There’s the Carmelo I know.
Also, Fields doesn’t belong in this league, and Jerome Jordan hasn’t proven anything, so I’m glad he’s on the bench. I really like seeing Knick basketball without an actual center playing a minute.
On offense, he sets much better screens than Amare. That fact is often overlooked.
People are KILLING STAT right now. Some of that is way overdone. But one thing people often fail to mention is that he’s a terrible screen setter.
Stat is 6-7
Melo is 10-23
The Knicks are getting efficient scoring overall! But they are giving up 60% from the field and 70% from 3
I like the scowling Melo much more than the smiling Melo
Meh. National crews and road crews never know anything about your role players. That’s universal.
He definitely is the MVP over Lin. But his absence doesn’t have much to do with the Hawks being 11-15 from 3.
now Amare is even forcing stupid shots, this is great.
You’re pathetic
Did she say something mean about Melo? Lol
Seriously, I think you’re being a little hard, but so what…
I’m pretty sure it does.
having an inside presence like Chandler allows perimeter defenders to stay closer to the shooters, takes away driving lanes (and the resulting kickouts) and Chandler is also really, really good at directing the defense and making sure our rotations are always well done.
some of the shots have been well guarded and lucky ones, but Chandler’s presence makes pretty much everything better on D.
oh, by the way, our starting center has 5 rebounds against a team that has JOSH SMITH, 6’8”, at the 5.
Yeah, hard to bitch about it since the Knicks had a three night like this recently. I think they cool in the fourth
Please rest the starters the 4th quarter. This is the chance to get the 8th seed as Philly is likely to tank after sealing playoff berth tomorrow.
So, did Teague screw melo’s wife or something? They look like they’re about to come to blows.
Nothing to do with Melo. I don’t have respect for professionals who don’t do the minimum amount of work and then feign knowledge.
It’s pervasive in the industry.
what happened with the whole “Carmelo owns LeBron” argument uh?
I find her a little try-hard and I think there is a little overcompensation going on….
Not a huge fan, but there are worse commentators out there…
Yes I understand how that works. But I don’t see the Knicks defenders giving extra space out there given how often they’ve been blown by to the rim.
The Hawks are just hot, actually.
Nice finish STAT!!!
What the fuck are you talking about?
Melo bringing some 90′s Knicks back.
I agree. She is not the worst.
STAT getting it done!
Amar’e and Melo pretty good together offensively today. Maybe they both needed to be healthy. Maybe it’s Chandler. Maybe it’s an anomaly.
Amar’e physically at least is looking pretty damn good.
Like he didn’t miss a beat.
Agreed. You can tell the schtick is not her. It’s unnatural.
At NBA on ESPN, “try-hard” seems like a job requirement (outside of Hubie). Mark Jones is the King of Try-Hard. They seem to allow the college hoops color commentators to be more natural.
you have repeatedly argued here on this boards that Carmelo brings his A-game against LeBron all the time, and that he has owned him on several occasions.
so, if we would have the best player on the series on our side, why are you so afraid of facing Miami?
too bad this isn’t like football, where Amare could only play on offense.
JR Smith doing his best to get the Knicks the 8th seed this quarter lol
Two dumb pullup from JR…
and just like that.
Poof!
The lead is gone.
if Baron’s going to get owned by Jannero Fucking Pargo, we might as well play Bibby.
I think ruruland is Carmelo’s publicist. Wish we could make a poll.
This is a ridiculous misrepresentation of my argument. I’m not going over all of the reasons the Knicks should want to play the Bulls when it’s so obvious.
I’m late but Amare smash!!
Hawks 13-17 from downtown and we’re only down by 1, Weird game.
JR begins his time on the floor with a couple heatcheck. #itsjusthowheplays
Screw tanking I say. I hear the logic but asking for CHI is ridiculous. They need to go into the playoffs with some momentum.
Hahaha those who took this game off will regret it, playoff feel right here, all these lead changes
Crazy game – overall though a pretty good effort on the road against a team with everything to play for and without our ‘MVP’ (at least according to KB). this is exactly the kind of game we need today and on wed/thurs. Give Fields some more confidence, get amare back in rhythm, keep Melo hot. But i guess no amount of ‘practice’ will make Baron any smarter.
I love how hard I get trolled on this board only for people to bitch when I respond.
How about a poll on Stat’s new haircut?
Not sure I love it….
Hey man. I knew I was going to see you here after Fields goes 3/3 on 3s for the first time ever? Lol
God bless JR Smith
That’s some block….
Even with the foul….
Marvin Williams has turned out pretty ok hasn’t he….
that’s what it looks like, honestly.
@113
maybe because your blind defense of anything Carmelo does or has done is ridiculous?
We’ve already gone over this.
why would anyone rather play Chi than Miami? Chi has demonstrated time and again that they will destroy the Knicks on the boards. Any Knick fan wants Lebron in MSG.
well, one thing we’ve learned today is that Chandler is the one who killed Fields’ game. :)
Makes him look very young
God that was a terrible shot by Davis….
At least it went in….
Tanking is ridiculous. Win the games in front of you.
Fun 2nd half at least lol
Jesus, all we need is a red, white and blue basketball.
I kinda love J.R Smith, even though he’s really stupid sometimes.
lmao
Hahaaaa that Booom Dizzy STARE DOWN!!!
well, one thing we’ve learned today is that Chandler is the one who killed Fields’ game. :)
Lol, yeah…..
I wonder what Fields is thinking sitting on the bench having scored 18 points on 8.5 shots….
This is a very entertaining game, defensive ineptness aside.
Sure, but a few years of true suckitude in there.
if we were complaining about lucky shots from Atlanta, we hit more than our fair share of lucky ones too.
Yeah, Stat looks far from tough with that haircut….
And I’m thrilled with Amare’s play.
Yes, his D is off, but that is the toughest area to be good when you have been out, IMHO.
Baron just dunked! :-)
I can’t understand why Baron is playing and not him, seriously.
How the fuck does Marvin Williams have 27 points??? How’s he scoring
Ah the pullup 19 foot elbow j….
There is no defender in the NBA who can keep Melo from getting that shot off….
Boy, you just get ass-raped by officials on the road in the NBA.
Virtually all triples.
I know were supposed to want to lose this game, but I really want to beat the Hawks, they’re a bunch of punks
My take on tanking:
It’s good that they don’t have to squeeze every drop to get wins this week, but it’s foolish to try to lose games before a playoff run. Rest players when and if you have to, but play to win. (I’ll mention, again, that I’m a NY Giants fan.)
Plus, this teams needs a 34th win to have a winning season.
Doris Burke doing her JVG talking about Amare’s moves.
that’s it, take it to the fucking rim, stop shooting idiotic 19-footers.
WTF, does someone have to stab melo for him to get a call today?
this technical is just bullshit.
Speaking of rape: Melo had his Horst at his knees and a man on his back and no call. And he got penalized for complaining
How does a guy Paul Pierce get every foul call and Melo gets mugged and nothing?
Bully ball!
Hahahaha how can you not love Melo!
I would say Melo is ready for playoff basketball
Carmelo Anthony won’t allow the Knicks to lose today. As far as I’m concerned, this will be our 34th win.
Has there ever been a worse non-call than the play before Carmelo’s tech where he got hacked in the middle of both arms to prevent a lay-up on purpose and nothing was called?
Missed ft. Ball don’t lie!
For me, I don’t like the head band. :)
I must admit. I LOVE Pierce, always have, even at Kansas (and I’m a Mizzou grad). But that SOB gets calls on YOUR home floor against your best players. And he probably hasn’t had five fouls in regulation in a decade.
It’s infuriating.
if he goes shooting 19-footers, I hate him… if he keeps driving to the basket against a team with inferior defenders and no inside presence, I love him.
it’s simple as that.
Just ask a couple of our resident stat heads.
what a stupid foul by Amare
Wow this has been some fucking game!
Big D by Shump there
Ok Woody!!! Don’t be stupid
They should have a ran a play, you can’t let Melo iso with 1 one up.
I like the angry, driving to the hoop melo. I don’t like the smirking, mailing it in melo
If ATL gets to advance this the fix is in.
Why did Melo heave a 3 like that?
There was time on the clock
Well this will be an interesting ending. Remember what the Knicks did on a Sunday two weeks ago? Hope that isn’t returned now.
I’m worried because of the way the Hawks have been hitting their shots today
ATL will be playing for the cheap foul if they’re smart.
I’m not saying they are…
No TOs for ATL. Pressure the inbounds.
exactly.
no reason we shouldn’t be seeing more of the first and less of the second, even if ruruland obviously disagrees.
Wow that sure sounded like a whistle
Wow. Missed dunk
Wow
well, today we learned that Melo and Amare trump Melo and Chandler. suck it, WoW boys. :)
Holy shit! Amare!
Wow, amazing ending…
lol Marvin Williams is incredibly stupid
Hawks would never pull that with Chandler playing.
Wow. He didn’t even get there
I was sure they called a foul.
this is dumb even if it’s a joke.
Wow!!!
It’s interesting, if they had had the time they should have by calling a timeout immediately after rebounding Melo’s shot, I guess they might have gotten that call….
It was a foul I think, but after the clock expired…
Is there any possible way that the Bobcats decide to show up for one game and beat the Magic? They’ve already got the most ping pong balls locked up
nice job by Shumpert denying Johnson the return pass. he looks either exhausted or resting in recent games, but that was a nice play.
Well, enough missed shots by Melo to keep Owen and co. happy for awhile.
Lol I expect Jowles to chime in 3…2…1
Orlando has actually played pretty well in Howard’s absence. It’s a powerball ticket for sure.
Agreed. Point taken. My apologies.
dunno, people like to draw conclusions about Amare based on the Cleveland game, why can’t we do the same based on this game? Atlanta needed this game and was playing hard, we lost in Atlanta a few weeks ago with the same exact lineup except Chandler instead of Amare.
just saying, things are more complicated than some people like to believe.
Shot was after the buzzer anyway. Wouldn’t have counted.
The best part about today? Baron Davis’ stat line. He scored 13 points (3-4 from deep, 5-9 overall), had 10 assists, and 2 steals.
No worries. We’ve all done it from time to time. Thanks for taking the high road.
I agree but, Fields kinda kicked your butt a lil bit with his play this game. Those 3s were, well unlike him.
and the point is that clearly we’re a better team with Amare as an option. it’s up to Woodson to best utilize his personnel, but we don’t have enough offense without Amare and Lin.
heh, yes, 40 bad games in a row and one where he hit shots and played dreadful D sure proved me wrong. :)
dude, I’m happy the Knicks won, just that.
if Carmelo made 55% of his shots every game, that would make me really happy, and that could be accomplished simply by not taking stupid 19-footers and driving to the basket more, specially against a team starting Josh Smith at the 5.
yet, he refuses to do that, and my question to you is: why?
he could have driven to the basket on every single play with Atlanta having no inside presence at all, and he did that to very good results some times, but why it seems that he HAS to keep taking mid-range jumpers?
I can’t see a plausible explanation other than ego and the whole “nobody can stop him from taking those shots”
I know this is has been debated ad nauseum, but we really need Amare to step up and ask to come off the bench for the playoffs. When Chandler comes back, it’s gonna get crowded again in the paint. Bringing Amare in to sub for Chandler would work perfectly, gets Melo over to the 4, gives Amare space down low, etc. Just seems to make a whole lot of sense.
I agree that things are more complicated than 1-game sample sizes, but to say we’re clearly a better team with Amare ignores the fact that we conceded 112 points to Atlanta (a team playing without one of it’s 3 best players in Horford) and could have easily won it if Marvin Williams had half of a brain.
If Josh Smith had a brain he’d be unstoppable. Amazing talent, and always on my fant. bball teams, but he always seems to do something stupid.
Bring on the Heat!
Lol a lil bit, it’s a good start though. I know you want to see him do well.
Woodson’s been terrific, and I think he has the strength of mind to put Amar’e on the second team if that’s the Knicks’ best chance. There are still too many variables to know what the right decision is. He’s obviously trying to get Amar’e's confidence back, and that has worked. Now he has to play the three together more and see what comes of it. Also, the opponent matters too.
we lost to the same team three weeks ago without Horford, and were never really in it because no one could score besides Melo and Shumpert.
we’re obviously a way better defensive team with Tyson, but is it possible we’re a better offensive team without him and with Amare at the 5?
hey guys long time no speak. this was a great game. love that melo and amare can coexist at least for one game.
i love that fields had a break out game, and i love the fact that after getting some rest baron had this type of game (man he even dunked the ball in between plays. wow he must have slept in Micheal Jacksons’ oxygen bed)
great overall play by the knicks. even smith played within himself.
the only thing i hated about watching this game was the glaring disparity on calls against the knicks and for the hawks
It takes a lot of effort to drive to the basket 20 times a game. Michael Jordan changed his game quite a bit and became a mid-range specialist.
You have to have counters to the drive. And shot-creators can preserve energy with the mid-range.
If Melo gets a few calls tonight he goes to the line 14-15 times and scores in the mid 40s on 60+ts.
He took basically all of the end of quarter/end of possession shots today.
His last spurt at the end helped the Knicks win. Like some of us were talking about earlier, a line-up with Amar’e/Melo and some shooters is almost impossible to outscore. It needs to be the lineup when CHandler is out, as d-mar mentioned.
Don’t act as if the guy doesnt make his 19 footers at a good clip and don’t also ignore the risk of driving to the basket on every play. Jeremy did that and look at what happened to him. Come on it’s not that simple as he should drive to the basket more, factor in the defense, the contact, the refs and injuries.
and yeah, Amare probably should be coming off the bench. I’m glad I don’t have to figure out how to optimize this set of personnel because there are no ideal answers.
So Fields goes to the bench and comes out balling. Davis sees Bibby play well and he plays a good game. Coincidence?
I think so but its a win. lol.
“Well, enough missed shots by Melo to keep Owen and co. happy for awhile.”
Indeed, I relish these 39 point 36 shot performances…
Btw, I don’t know if you noticed my last post last night, but adjusting for league average, and after last nights game, Denver this year is scoring .3 last points per 100 relative to league average.
So, yeah, the best offense Melo ever played a full season on was barely better than the Nuggets this year.
The most important thing about this game is that 34 wins means we finish above .500 something I did not think was possible on February 3, 2012.
What I really liked about this win (besides STAT and Melo meshing pretty well, at least offensively) is that it kept their streak alive as far as not dropping consecutive games under Woodson…good sign of resiliency for this club!
It’s simply common sense abbey because interaction effects aren’t real. Stats show Tyson Chandler to be a dominant offensive player, therefore he has a significantly positive offensive impact.
I play pool, and melo reminds me of the great shot makers I often beat because they take too many high risk, low reward shots. Of course, when they make all of their shots high risk shots I lose, but over the long run that way of playing is fool’s gold.
why argue? why not just mix it up when needed when you need offense?
put in amare when you need defense leave chandler when you need defense.
i believe you can now put amare and melo in the 4th to finish of the game and if you get a big enough league you put chandler in.
its a win win situation. im loving it.
32 shots, but what’s the difference. The Knicks won in spite of MElo today.
I like how you ignore the essential parts of the arguments I make. it really ups my post count to repeat them over and over again.
I don’t know, it’s a fact that it takes a lot of energy to keep driving, but he still settles too much on outside shots when he could do it, for me.
I have no issue with him taking open jumpers, be it 3 pointers or 18-footers, but there’s just no justification for a 18-footer with a long defender like Josh Smith on your face.
@216
ok, we’re a better offensive team with Amare in place of Chandler, you’re right, but I believe the fall defensively is just gigantic, it’s not worthy, specially on the playoffs where defense will be pivotal against a team that loves to keep driving to the rim, like Miami.
Amare is not coming off the bench, so why bother debating it? More likely, Woodson will figure out how to play them so that 1) Amare subs out early, leaving Melo and Chandler, 2) Amare subs in for Chandler, 3) Chandler subs in for Melo, then they all play again. Bottom line is, Melo and Chandler are getting 30 or more minutes a game and Melo is getting 40 or so. They are going to be on the floor together 20 minutes a game, and surely at the beginning and end of games.
Agree, Amare always had more success at the 5 but I think we’re versatile now. Melo at the 3 will be a mismatch most nights as well on both ends. We can go big or small or medium with Jefferies.
Great game. Melo got his, although less efficiently than in his recent streak, Amare looked great on O, Baron looked healthy and Fields hit three 3s! Good win though? Guess we’ve sorta kept our options open for now…
nobody makes 19 footers at a good enough clip to justify taking them even while closely guarded if your nome is not Michael Jordan.
Jordan could take a billion mid-range jumpers and still have a +.600 TS%, Carmelo can’t.
Melo was getting malled in the paint on almost all of his forays, drives, etc without fouls being called (which is why he picked up the tech)….so I think he appropriately adjusted to the officiating but not taking the ball all the way to the rack….of course if they were giving him the benefit of the doubt down low it might make more sense to take the ball to the hoop….he also had his shot rejected several times down low…the answer is not to simply just take the ball to the hoop at all costs…he is arguably the best mid-range shooter in the game when healthy and motivated…I thought his game plan was fine tonight…he didn’t hit as many mid-range shots as maybe we would like, but he isn’t going to shoot 55% every single night…
It’d be nice if he started getting a few calls to reward the drive.
Let’s remember Melo’s injury history — a lot of his issues stemmed from getting his hands and arms tangles up inside all the time.
He’ll be more aggressive going to the basket in the playoffs now that there are other threats on the floor.
again, I just don’t think it’s so black and white. Chandler didn’t seem to have much of an effect against Miami last week, and Amare has had some huge offensive games against them.
really the way to go might be to just go with our best five players as starters: Shumpert, Smith, Melo, Amare, Chandler, and ride them as hard as we can. Amare’s defense shouldn’t hurt too much alongside those other four guys. Baron, Novak, Fields, Jeffries, that’s your bench, each getting maybe 10-15 minutes.
If Melo had gotten the benefit of the doubt on some awful foul calls, he would have been 14-28 or 14-29 and no one here would be talking about efficiency.
I hope so, he could be just so much better than he is, because he’s so incredibly strong and talented with both hands.
the calls, I think, are a matter of perception… since Melo is so strong, sometimes it looks like defenders are bouncing off him, when they’re actually fouling him.
let’s hope you’re right and he goes to the playoffs with this attitude.
The only problem with bringing Amar’e off of the bench is that he really needs to be playing with Baron- he’s the only guard who seems capable of getting him the ball on the move.
Also- don’t you kind of give back what you get from resting Chandler by having Melo and Amar’e both play the entire second half? I know Amar’e didn’t play a whole lot in the first but it got pretty physical in the second and having him expend so much energy without a blow seems a little crazy. Ditto Melo- 42 minutes is too much. If the Knicks were that desperate for the 6th seed then why didn’t Chandler or Melo play in the 4th against Cleveland?
MJ didn’t approach 600 ts after his seventh year in league.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html
very difficult to be a high-usage player without the mid-range game. A few super athletes can do it — Wade and Lebron– but even they take a lot of mid-range shots in the halfcourt. They do so much more of their damage in transition.
I agree, Shumpert and Smith should start, but we’ll probably see Baron starting… anyway, the crunch time lineup should be that one, with Shump and Smith at the guards.
Amare needs game time, he’s rested plenty.
Right, and if Melo was concerned about his efficiency he wouldn’t continue to take all of the end of quarter and and of shot clock shots. He could easily shave a few shots a game if he was about pleasing the stats crowd.
I agree, makes zero sense. Worst win of the year. Just stupid.
This is a case which bolsters Abbey’s point about being flawed at the core or at the collection point. 32 shots so what, how about we count out the shot clock running down upheaves, the missed put backs which btw are not high percentage with all the action going on in the paint. It doesnt matter anyway at the end of the day we won.
I agree with you a lot of the time, but I think you’re crazy to so strongly want Chicago over Miami.
Harden tearing up the opponent’s second unit wings per usual.
If Jordan had played with the current rules regarding perimeter defense his TS would have been 65+ every year.
if we win our remaining games and build some really good momentum, with Amare getting some rhythm back, I’d rather face Miami than Chicago after 3 tanking losses.
i think arguing about melo is pointless at this juncture especially after this game. he made timely shots, did it mostly in the flow of the offense, and personally speaking i would take a contested mid range jumper from melo, late in the clock than give it to any other player.
these are my reasons:
1) fields is not consistent
2)they were playing novak tight he couldn’t get a shot off and is horrible getting the ball out in when the defense stops his motion.
3) Baron Davis was making horrible passes all game and is not a great spot up shooter.
4)do you honestly want smith chucking up the ball more than melo.
5)and amare was losing the ball left and right and was not even looking or ready for half the passes in the 4th
i just think arguing about Melos play today is like complaining about getting a new iPhone cause you just have a couple scratches on the current one. its pointless.
He was guarding Joe Johnson whose one of the most offensive impressive players the Knicks have played this year….fields played pretty good D on a lot of his ridiculous makes
+1
great answer, thank you, for making it for me.
Jordan was hand checked and bumped every single play, and he was hammered MUCH MORE on drives every time he went to the paint, like our own beloved Knicks did it against him.
if Melo can’t take the beating he takes right now, imagine if he played one single game against Oak + Mason + Ewing.
Chicago’s front-court depth petrifies me. I agree with ruru that rebounding is in large part effort and can be amped up for big games, but I think there’s too big a gap to bridge there.
im sorry but i agree with abbey. not for nothing but bieng a low seed and wanting to win the whole thing the best shot would be the heat.
taking the heat by suprise in the first round would be easier than getting a well rested miami team in the 2nd round.
also Phily Chicago will probably go 6 or seven. giving the knicks a team not so well rested but off because they most likely will take them in six.
the heat on the other hand are dealing with injuries to their star players.
IMHO abbey is 100% right
Really, how about Dirk or Kobe or even Durant. Are u kidding me? I hope Melo takes em all day everyday so long as it doesn’t hurt us. Look at the volume drivers in the league, Wade is at the top of that list and he seemed to be banged up year after year and now D rose has added himself to that group, and Rubio has started off well. It’s not that simple “homes”, the game offensively is dictated by what the defense gives. And if you drive drive, you are at a higher risk of injury.
I just think you always take the team with less individual shot-makers in the playoffs. In this case, the Bulls have half of one, maybe one all-together if you combine a hobbled Rose with some Hamilton and Boozer.
So much easier to stop than the Heat. To me, rebounding can be controlled a lot easier than Lebron and Wade.
im sorry i agree with you bruno
I wasn’t really trying to compare Melo with Jordan, for fuck’s sake, I was just showing you that a lot of high-usage scorers play the mid-range game quite a bit because they can’t drive all the time — obviously it won’t be effective as shooting dunks and 3s every time… My point is that’s NOT Possible.
the point is: it hurts us.
you’re talking about completely different players, my god.
if Melo was able to keep an over .600 TS% like Dirk and Durant have been capable of doing, I would have absolutely no problem with him shooting whatever shots he wants.
but he has never done it in his career, that’s the point.
Dirk and Durant are both better offensive players than Carmelo.
Why do we so quickly accept the false dichotomy of Amare vs. Melo? Who cares who starts?
Who plays should be about opponent matchup and game situation.
To his credit I’d say Woody has handled that generally well. My only complaint is that his patience with JR’s pull-ups and assorted oddities seems to know no bounds while Fields can’t get out of the doghouse even when he has it “going” (insofar as he does that from time to time).
I mean, we’re talking about two of the best four or five teams in the league, we’ll be serious underdogs to either one, deservedly so. I understand your perspective, but to me it’s more a case of picking your poison, cyanide or arsenic.
one thing about facing Miami is that if they did somehow manage to win, they’d get Indiana next instead of Boston, so that’s a positive for the 2/7 matchup.
damn abbey i thought you would want the heat for sure you just surprised me. you have to look at the big picture. if we win against Chicago but get a rested hot heat team whats the point. but if we get a hobbled Heat and a hobbled Chicago in the second we could talk about championship
Yep I used to say this a lot, even Lin couldn’t handle getting Amare his touches with TC in the mix. I still want Lin back though, so Amare and Baron can captain the second unit. Melo will stare Lin down if he doesn’t pass him the ball in the post haha with what he did to teague today, the guy is a real real Bully. Plus Baron has good handles so the pnr with Melo and Amare was beautiful, imagine multiple pnr with Baron, Amare or Baron Chandler.
by the way, for all the talk about Melo not being respected by the refs, he averages 7.8 FTA per game for his career, the exact same number as Durant and Kobe (who has 7.6) and much higher than Dirk (6.5), Derrick Rose (5.0) and Chris Paul (5.3)
by the way, NY is now a remarkable 9-2 against the Eastern 3-9 teams (IND/BOS/ATL/ORL/PHI/MIL) under Woodson. that is incredible, think about that for a second.
now im really lost who is taking chicago whos taking the heat lol
It’s a no-win of course. For as much as Melo can neutralize Lebron, everyone else will really have to outplay Wade/Bosh and the role players. That means Amar’e will need to play great and we’ll have to really shoot it.
you wouldn’t play them in back to back rounds no matter what (you’d get either the winner of IND/ORL or BOS/ATL in the second round), but I do kind of want Miami. I also wouldn’t be too surprised if either team beat NY four straight, though, so it’s hard to say “I want Miami”.
Yeah. If they can ever get healthy they can mix and match as well as any team depending, on the situation/opponent.
Bruno the fact is he should be getting more fouls he should have had at least those two calls in the 4th. come on r u serious he was mugged in the lane on those two plays. i have never seen melo lose his cool with the refs in the 4th, not even when they called that tech when he slammed the ball after getting injured the other day.
Dirk, Durant better than Melo?? Not according to myself and Charles Barkeley. Whatever your TS stat saids we have forever argued it’s flaws. All I’m saying is I agree with Melo shooting his bad shots, heck aren’t we all happy when they go in. The reason he’s great is because he doesn’t play conservative, you have Fields to that for you.
whoa, Baron had 10 assists in that game! I had no idea.
Welcome non interim coach Woodson
Here’s why Woody will get the job. We’ve all noted that our owner has an IQ on par with a sea slug and has put that awesome intellect and judgment towards bringing or aggreeing to bring a parade of overrated or washed up players to the Knicks. Rogues’ Gallery of Francis, Tim Thomas twice, two Roses, McDyss, McGrady, Randolph, Crawford and of course the Pieces de la Resistance: Curry and Marbury. I shudder to type their names. OK, enter Donnie and we show some patience and scrub the cap and sign Amare and then…and then…Dolan trades the team for Carmelo. This is controversial. We were impatient; we overpayed. Carmelo can’t play with Amare etc etc etc. And the team…doesn’t do too well. Well, even sea slugs have feelings and D must have been dying to see Carmelo become a class A star. And since Woody took over, that’s what he’s been. In Denver, he was known for scoring and rebounding. Under Woody, he’s added passing, defense, and winning. He’s been the most exciting this around here since B King. So given this dynamic, Dolan can’t be dumb enough to dump Woody in favor or some marquis coach like Jackson or Calipari. He couldn’t be that dumb. Could he?
Wow, anyone see that Artest elbow knock out Harden? What a cheap shot.
but wade finger is screwed in his shooting hand, he will not be as effective as you think. melo can neutralize lebron, and shumpert can take a hobbled wade. bosh cant play well against amare, amare has had his number every year. that leaves Tyson, smith, novak against charmers, hasleem, and miller i like our chances at least on paper.
In other news, Ron Artest is clearly an asshole.
ok, then it’s your opinion and Barkley’s, not analysis.
Dirk has won a title, Durant is the leader of the best team in the west and has reached the western conference finals in 4 years in the league, and Melo’s team is fighting for the 7th seed.
oh well.
@271
I agree that he should have gotten some calls, but this is the NBA, on the road you aren’t getting those calls… and it only gets worse in the playoffs if your name is not Dwyane Wade.
but this is one game… what is evident is that, throughout his career, he has been getting free throws at the same rate of pretty much every other superstar out there, except Wade and Lebron.
Agree w ruru. The Carmelo effect will be canceled out by Lebron over the course of the series. Amare and Bosh are about even, the big issue is Dwayne Wade….to make up that difference we need our inconsistent bench to consistently step up. The Bulls will have the advantage on the glass but I agree we can compensate for that more effectively so it’s not 15+ rebound advantage, that’s huts effort
Mike Breen is just a hater, a little wimp, bet he was Bullied as a kid. No wander he hates Melo too. Artest didn’t do it on purpose.
it’s his non-shooting hand.
He plays at the rim more than Durant or Dirk, Kobe too — take a higher percentage of shots at the rim than any of them. He should have more fta than those guys. It hurts his at rim percentage.
…….
just stop man.
Can’t stand Breen anymore.
Me too, but since I disagree with ruru, who just knows for a fact that Chi. is the better match-up, that means I deserve a “lmao” from him for giving this opinion.
then how about Rose, who drives to the basket all the time and averages even less free throws? and yet a lot of people complain about how the refs protect him?
all I’m saying is that there are, in my opinion, two players who have been clearly protected by the referees in their careers: Wade and LeBron.
the rest is in the same boat.
Yeah you say all this now. Go back and check what the consensus was about Dirk before he won the championship now people seem to have forgotten that he still can’t play D. Go on, mr Analyst. Gimme a break.
Was the elbow that bad or did Breen over sale it. In slow motion it looks awful but I was just amazed how long JVG did not say something and only joined after Breen coaxed him. Usually JVG would go off.
He clearly did it on purpose. He felt Harden’s presence and then threw the elbow directly at his neck. You don’t beat your chest and throw an elbow.
my bad but even in his non shooting hand it will screw up his hot especially from deeper than 18 feet
Just stop what?? Can’t I have an opinion Mr. Analyst?
Rose gets a bad whistle — but he also avoids contact. Melo goes for contact and plays an extremely high-contact game.
Again, there’s a big discrepancy in the ratio between shots at rim and fta compared to most of these guys. Melo is actually one of the more aggressive half-court, high-usage offensive players in the NBA.
then when Melo wins a MVP and a NBA title, we’ll talk about it.
the fact is, Dirk was criticized, and he went there and did it… I hope Melo does it too for the Knicks, but I’m not holding my breath.
You’re seriously whining about my response to you after debasing yourself in last night’s thread?
I dunno man, I saw it differently. Arrests always does the Double Ape chest pound every time he does something out of the ordinary to celebrate, it was just the reflex that caught Harden.
Rah-rah, way to be a fan!!
come on, don’t tell me YOU are using the “fan” argument lol
That’s a lot of wishful thinking. Wade said he’ll be fine and has history of playing well hurt. Bosh has hurt us in games with and without Amare thus year bc Chandler is too slow to guard him and Amare is not a strong defender. It comes down to your belief in our bench and they have been inconsistent if JR is hot for a series sure…but he has not been consistent. They are also excellent on help D and close outs which would neutralize Novakaine…Too much offensive firepower and bad matchup defensively for us. We match up much better with the Bulls.
That was intentional. Hes getting suspended a few games for that
I could see your argument regarding Dirk, but have you had a chance to watch a lot of Durant? Durant is better than Melo in every facet of the game, with the possible exception of passing.
you forget Dan gadzuric can help alot in the lane and with bosh
I guess a find it hard to believe that so many Knicks “fans” root for the trade failing, Melo failing, and being right about things than they do the Knicks winning.
It’s one thing to make intellectual arguments about all of this, it’s another thing to make the kind of posts at certain times that certain Knicks “fans” do.
Once again their blowing it out of proportion, yeah needs to be punished but to say his intent was malicious is mind boggling. They keep showing only half of the replay. Show the whole thing ESPN. But I guess they need something to talk about all week.
but we have melo which i can finally say without a doubt in my mind im fine with. so why argue apples and oranges makes no sense. we now have a top 5 player in the league if he brings (which he will) this kind of intensity and defense into the playoffs
That’s how I saw it. It was so funny to see a guy with “World Peace” on his jersey do that.
I think it was just a heat of the moment thing though- a reflex action by a crazy person, not a premeditated attempt to hurt Harden.
Wait, what who? Lol
He’s a more efficient scorer. He’s an incredible shot-maker. But he doesn’t post-up very effectively or create double teams.
Statistically he’s never been on par with Melo as rebounder, passer (measured by assists per 36 and a/to)
Melo has owned Durant in individual match-ups.
another point for playing the heat. that means Boston might play Chicago, they will bruise Chicago up, and still lose. which to me is pertinent, because i do not want to see the Celtics in the playoffs.
laugh all you want, but he is great a grabbing rebounds, and if you have a guy known for fouling hard if you go down the lane, you’ll think twice about going to the whole.
After hundreds of posts defending a guy like he was your closest relative, you’re accusing me of debasing myself?
I think Woody and his staff should watch lots and lots of tape from last years Finals. Here’s the two rosters:
Dallas Finals’ starters: Nowitzki, Barea, Kidd, Marion, Chandler
Knicks current starters: Melo, Davis, Amare, Fields, Chandler
Dallas bench: Terry, Cardinal, Mahinmi, Stevenson
Knicks bench: Smith, Novak, Shumpert, Bibby
The biggest disparity in starting lineups is Kidd vs. Davis and Marion vs. Fields. That’s where we’re gonna get hurt, Kidd and Marion can guard anybody, Fields and Davis ?? But I like our bench a lot more than Dallas’. I think our only chance against Miami is to win the bench battle to keep it close until the end, because we really haven’t shown much of an ability to slow down Wade or LeBron on defense.
Another point on heat vs bulls….we love turning the ball over and the Heat are at their absolute best getting turnovers and scoring in transition….not good
next thread is up guys
Laughing at the fact that you think a dleaguer who hasn’t played in our last 2 games and is behind toney Douglas on the bench will get meaningful playing timein the playoffs
only time will tell john. dont forget you heard it from me first!!!!!!!!
Consider their ages.
Durant was a much better rebounder per 36 than Melo in 3 of the their 4 first years in the league, and is much better this year, which indicates he will probably continue to be a better rebounder since Durant is just entering his prime.
Durant is a much more efficient scorer, as you said. He’s also become a legit shot blocker.
Melo is the better passer.
You can’t be seriously saying that Melo is a better ball player than Durant, are you?
You guys still don’t get it, Yes Durant is a better scorer than Melo according to the numbers but when it comes to the scoring abilities, that dynamic talent to be able to score anyway possible, demand double teams and make your team mates better. How can you say Durant is better than Melo, Durant doesn’t play defense, doesnt command doubles and doesn’t even have the passing ability or have the rebounding ability of Carmelo Anthony. But like Melo did previously, Durant plays in a small Market, is likeable and doesn’t get grilled as Melo does and guess what his teams have always been better than Melo’s Denver teams and yet they’ve both only been to the CF and lost. I’m sorry but Kevin Durant is not a better player than Carmelo Anthony, maybe a better scorer but not a better player.
Agreed and Woody needs to install a zone defense as soon as possible. It’s very important.
and thats only cause he cant play until the playoffs lol jokes on you
I’ve said it a billion times that I would be the happier person in the world if we actually won a championship with this roster.
I just don’t think it’ll happen, and that’s what I emphasize here.
when Melo was killing it, when Amare was injured, I made several posts here complimenting his play, saying that it was good to finally see him play well and carry this team.
but don’t expect me to put on rose colored glasses and stop noticing this team’s failures and shortcomings.
I, as a Knick fan, am way too scalded to get giddy over small change.
There’s a difference between being an objective realist all the time and being a fan. It’s seems that many folks are only the latter when they’re called out.
We all understand the arguments and skepticism (to put it nicely) at this point, why not look for the clues that foreshadow the necessary changes?