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Saturday, September 20, 2014

2012-13 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Hawks

When you have a really bad loss (and last night’s game was probably the Knicks’ worst loss of the season) then it is sometimes a real boon to have a game the next day to get the taste of suck out of your mouth. This is hopefully the case tonight when the Knicks host the Atlanta Hawks.

The Hawks have played well recently, but they’re dealing with the loss of Lou Williams, which hurt their chances a lot of making some real noise in the Eastern Conference. The Knicks have owned the Hawks in recent years. This is oddly the first meeting between the two teams this season.

I think the Hawks will work well as a sort of gauge of where the Knicks are. Are the Knicks in the upper echelon of the East or are they in the mix with teams like the Hawks? We will find out tonight!

Carmelo Anthony, by the way, is trying to set the record for the most consecutive 20 point games in Knick history. If he scores 20 tonight he tie Richie Guerin for the record! It is a sort of a fluky record, but it is still impressive (if only because it is so hard to do).

195 comments on “2012-13 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Hawks

  1. d-mar

    Would be nice to see Melo shoot over (or at least somewhere near) 50%, getting tired of these 9-28 nights.

  2. johnlocke

    Despite our terrible loss yesterday — all these teams also lost: Heat, Bulls, Nets, Pacers. Can’t get much better than that. Having said that, we need a win. We somehow still have a real shot at the #1 seed in the East if we can start playing a little better – think that’s the only way we could realistically think about getting to the Finals

  3. johnlocke

    Rondo going down is like beating a dead horse. He was most likely trade bait I’d presume – everyone else is either too old or has a terrible contract

    Douglas:
    whoaaaa, Rondo tore his ACL, out for the season. RIP Celtics.

  4. ruruland

    It’s really hard for me to watch Durant sometimes. The calls he consistently gets that Melo rarely does at the basket……

    There really isn’t a difference in each other’s ability to get to the basket. Durant’s a better finisher, but he simply gets the contact calls at the rim. It makes an incredible difference.

  5. ruruland

    it’s interesting to watch KD get frustrated when he doesn’t get ONE call.

    He’d have to really adapt mentally if he got a Melo whistle. It’ll obviously never happen though. Officials are his ss agents for life.

  6. Frank O.

    Two words: the fast.
    Lost energy. Lost strength.
    Stupidest thing I have heard an athlete do in the middle of a season that can can recall, outside of law breaking.

    Question is do we get good Melo or bad?
    His efficiency is collapsing.

  7. Frank O.

    Btw, I think the Celts get better without Rondo.
    The other guys don’t like him, and I really like this Bradley kid.
    I think the team gets better.
    Call me crazy.mgo ahead

  8. yellowboy90

    Will Melo learn from his mentor Kobe and pick up his passing? HE is not at Kobe level but he can pass the ball very well. Or will he have a Durant night minus the FT attempts?

  9. mr.JayP

    No way the celtics get better without rondo. No way rondo gets traded.

    Dude is an elite pg period. He accounts for 35 of the celtics points. No one on the celtics can create their own shot. Or cover those amount of pts.

    If Ainge is smart he will retool his team to be more of a run n gun team. Sort of like the spurs. Rondo just has to continue to improve his mid range jump shot.

    My question. How do we create a package to get KG to play our 4 lol :P

  10. KnickFanInCelticLand

    Frank O.:
    Two words: the fast.
    Lost energy. Lost strength.
    Stupidest thing I have heard an athlete do in the middle of a season that can can recall, outside of law breaking.

    Question is do we get good Melo or bad?
    His efficiency is collapsing.

    I completely agree. If he is really doing this, he is getting some bad advice.

  11. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Watch when I’ve correctly guessed Carmelo’s end-of-season TS% and ruruland dismisses it because of the fast and Felton’s injury.

  12. Douglas

    I just realized that “JB” is the irrationally Knick-hating Jon Barry. It will sure be fun listening to his passive-aggressive barbs against Melo & Amare all night.

  13. ShumpStuff

    Juany8:
    Amar’e is so bad at defense…

    It’s nice that he’s attempting to defend though. Same guy that said he’s never been taught defense a few weeks ago

  14. Douglas

    DRed:
    Stevenson v. JR in a stupid tattoo battle would be interesting

    I don’t think you can beat Stevenson’s Abe Lincoln on the throat.

  15. Juany8

    Melo taking terrible shots recently. It’s perplexing that he doesn’t try to drive inside anymore. I realize he doesn’t get a particularly friendly whistle, but he often gets the step on a defender and simply jacks up a shot instantly.

  16. flossy

    Douglas: I don’t think you can beat Stevenson’s Abe Lincoln on the throat.

    JR Smith is definitely the only straight man in the world with a giant rainbow SWISH neck tattoo, I’ll tell you that much

  17. Douglas

    flossy: JR Smith is definitely the only straight man in the world with a giant rainbow SWISH neck tattoo, I’ll tell you that much

    That’s true. Worth considering.

  18. hegotgame

    OMG. I just chocked so hard on a “WAIT, MELO WHAT ARE YO.. *cough cough splutter. dead*”

    That was HORRIBLE shot selection. I mean I love melo, but he cant be doin that to me. I nearly died choking just now, real talk.

  19. Nick C.

    Melo going crazy right now with threes. Maybe luck but certainly better to shoot uncontested heat checks than dribble into or try to shoot over double and triple teams.

  20. yellowboy90

    Juany8:
    Melo taking terrible shots recently. It’s perplexing that he doesn’t try to drive inside anymore. I realize he doesn’t get a particularly friendly whistle, but he often gets the step on a defender and simply jacks up a shot instantly.

    Unfortunately those drives ends in blocks or missed lay ups

  21. flossy

    Seriously though if Melo had been 3 feet farther back on that 3, Lebron would have come out and tackled him

  22. hegotgame

    Ok. So I didnt choke on my “wtf are you doing melo?!?” this time round. I guess hes looking out for me in his own special way…

  23. AnonymousODG

    Douglas:
    whoaaaa, Rondo tore his ACL, out for the season. RIP Celtics.

    Cue Mr. Burns bringing his hands together, “Excellent… excellent.”

    Sloppy transition defense, mostly precipitated by turnovers on offense. Really (and I mean REALLY) lucky bounces permitting the Hawks to grab some offensive boards. But we’re playing ok.

    We just need to tighten up on defense a little. /nosh1tsherlock

  24. hegotgame

    Dude is 5/13 today too and Knicks shooting over 50%. He really needs to contribute some more hard nosed buckets. I realize that he’s still getting his usual shitty whistle but he’s gotta force the issue or get some dimes. the long jumper wont fall consistently till he can get a lot more shots closer to the rack, open and in rhythm. Or better yet some free-throws. Come on Melo, lets take it back to november…

  25. yellowboy90

    They need to play off the PnR instead of the post/iso Melo. He is not going to post Josh Smith up consistently and Smith is fast enough to contain him off the dribble. They need to get him running more screens leading to free throw line jumpers.

  26. Will the Thrill

    I don’t think anyone should be surprised about these injuries.

    Juany8:
    more injuries for the Knicks, this season is becoming pretty frustrating

  27. Juany8

    Will the Thrill:
    I don’t think anyone should be surprised about these injuries.

    You’d hope they wouldn’t all come at once, notice that Brewer isn’t playing either. Also doesn’t make it less frustrating

  28. flossy

    Juany8: You’d hope they wouldn’t all come at once, notice that Brewer isn’t playing either. Also doesn’t make it less frustrating

    Brewer got 5 whole seconds of PT in the 1st half

  29. Will the Thrill

    I don’t think Melo at PF is working anymore Woody. When Chandler is out of the paint we have no chance of stopping anyone.

  30. cgreene

    Also there is no ball movement left in the offense. Every team is sagging off the PnR. Felton is gun shy. Jeez.

  31. flossy

    Will the Thrill:
    I don’t think Melo at PF is working anymore Woody. When Chandler is out of the paint we have no chance of stopping anyone.

    It’s true, his help defense to stop penetration is horrendous. Amar’e is useless when the other team involves him in a PnR action, but Melo provides absolutely no help when it’s Chandler’s man setting the screen.

  32. Juany8

    On thing to keep in mind about this game is that even if the Knicks were at 100 percent and in perfect conditions, the Hawks are still a pretty solid team that would be hard to beat. Shouldn’t be surprising that they’re keeping pace, this Atlanta team is very solid

  33. yellowboy90

    cgreene:
    Also there is no ball movement left in the offense.Every team is sagging off the PnR.Felton is gun shy.Jeez.

    i have like the movement though. There are at least screens being set to open up JR and Melo at the 3 got a nice shot off the Amar’e post. Need much more movement in the offense. I do not mind iso with the other players moving to get open its the iso plus standing around that sucks

  34. Juany8

    Melo is making some ridiculous shots, but in general he’s getting much better looks than he has been recently. He’s just spotting up and getting open looks, attacking Josh Smith by post ups is just not an ideal offense.

  35. cgreene

    yellowboy90: i have like the movement though. There are at least screens being set to open up JR and Melo at the 3 got a nice shot off the Amar’e post. Need much more movement in the offense. I do not mind iso with the other players moving to get open its the iso plus standing around that sucks

    Fo be fair the movement has gotten much better at the end of the 3rd. Melo being unconscious helps.

  36. hegotgame

    Damn. Melo is on fire. Flashbacks of the Nigeria game.. Dunno how hes open though, kinda amazing lol. But also, I think this why dude was so efficient earlier this year/last year. He is a monster from the spot up situation. He gets shitty percentages when he gets bad calls inside and settles for contested midrange. Theres no way to stop an open melo. Best scorer in the league.

    Yes. All of that was blindingly obvious. Why cant we work harder to put him in these situations on the regular though? Other dudes really need to step up and make open shots.

  37. AnonymousODG

    Among everything else, STATs screens have also improved dramatically. He’s looking good. Just worried about the minutes he’s logging.

  38. Kurt

    Is Zaza fronting the post the first time anyone’s fronted STAT this year? After the game STAT should call up Hakeem for a counter. He looked a little befuddled there. Unless he comes up with a counter, everyone will start doing it.

    One way around it is forming a triangle with the corner shooter passing to Amar’e to avoid the front.

  39. Unreason

    Amare at the 5 is just a recipe for defensive disaster. Whatever the spacing problems are on the offensive end. He’s to big of a hole on D to be out there without Chandler.

  40. Kurt

    Even though JR is hitting, his makes are still fools’ gold, since they’re not really in the flow of the offense. He also missed STAT on some rolls and went one on one and just got lucky.

    Most recent shot was also an awkward miss.

  41. flossy

    Kurt:
    Is Zaza fronting the post the first time anyone’s fronted STAT this year? After the game STAT should call up Hakeem for a counter. He looked a little befuddled there. Unless he comes up with a counter, everyone will start doing it.

    One way around it is forming a triangle with the corner shooter passing to Amar’e to avoid the front.

    Or just go backdoor?

  42. flossy

    Amar’e, Melo and Novak might be the worst defensive frontcourt in the league. Can’t wait for Camby or Sheed to come back so that basically never happens.

    Also, I want to give some props to Felton for not keeping the FG attempts at an entirely reasonable level tonight.

  43. TheXman

    I don’t know how many times I can take Amare trying to go one-on-one and losing the ball off his foot. God he is utterly useless, once hero Melo ball stops, Hawks could probably steal this.

  44. Kurt

    Question for anyone with Synergy: Melo on spot ups vs. Durant on spot ups. It’s really scary how good he shoots when he spots up and shoots within the flow of the offense.

    Unreason:
    HOLY CRAP Melo is just filthy tonight

  45. Unreason

    Good to see this unit with Melo, Amare, Chandler, and Smith trying to work it out. The O looks good even considering that Melo’s night is anomalous.

  46. d-mar

    Here’s what bothers me – all of our baskets are Melo heat checks, and all of Atlanta’s baskets are dunks and open shots. Not good.

  47. Kurt

    Melo’s on spot ups is good enough that they’re good shots, especially since they’re threes, making them efficient shots.
    d-mar:
    Here’s what bothers me – all of our baskets are Melo heat checks, and all of Atlanta’s baskets are dunks and open shots. Not good.

  48. hegotgame

    WTF raymond? Wide open jumper and then u try and pass it to JR with a man guarding him and another in the passing lane??

  49. flossy

    d-mar:
    Here’s what bothers me – all of our baskets are Melo heat checks, and all of Atlanta’s baskets are dunks and open shots. Not good.

    It’s true, if Melo’s not unconscious we’re getting blown out

  50. Thomas B.

    Maybe I’m getting ahead of myself here–I lack Brian’s optimism–but is this going to be the worst loss of the year?

  51. TheXman

    Melo tech makes the difference. Also Amare doing the lane violation off the Ivan Johnson free throw is painful.

  52. Kurt

    First time I’ve heard Barry doing analysis. Don’t always agree with him, but I can’t think of anyone who fills in more depth.

  53. d-mar

    If Woodson calls a play where they let the clock run down to 5 seconds or less I’ll throw something at the TV.

  54. Will the Thrill

    That was Novak

    TheXman:
    Melo tech makes the difference.Also Amare doing the lane violation off the Ivan Johnson free throw is painful.

  55. Juany8

    Lol just 2 seconds this season was over. Maybe everyone needs to calm down and accept that a hobbled Knicks team won’t be blowing teams out anytime soon?

  56. flossy

    cgreene:
    There’s no point to even having Ray Felton back the way this is being run.

    To be fair, there’s no way Melo hits 17 threes or whatever it was tonight if he’s the one initiating the offense every possession.

  57. AnonymousODG

    Everybody in the Garden and watching on TV was like…

    “NNNNNnnoooooooOOOoOOOoo-

    YYYEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!”

  58. llcoolbp

    Brian Cronin:
    Is that the Knick record for most threes made in a game? It would be funny if Melo tied two different Knick records in a single amazing game!

    Ties John Starks, spree, and the immortal TDDWTDD.

  59. cgreene

    flossy: To be fair, there’s no way Melo hits 17 threes or whatever it was tonight if he’s the one initiating the offense every possession.

    That’s my whole point. Melo had 9 3′s at the end of the 3rd. In the 4th they went to iso Melo at the elbow the entire quarter and he didn’t get another open shot. I was complaining that they went away from what was working and until the final possession (which was the first time Melo made a quick move off the high post) it was failing. Hawks were overloading the strong side and we had 3 – 4 terrible possessions in a row.

  60. jon abbey

    the first 70 posts of this thread are hilarious, just ripping Melo left and right.

    this team basically lives or dies by JR Smith. less than ideal, but that’s the way it is, I think.

  61. AnonymousODG

    TheXman:
    I don’t know how many times I can take Amare trying to go one-on-one and losing the ball off his foot.God he is utterly useless, once hero Melo ball stops, Hawks could probably steal this.

    18 pts, 8 reb, 1 ast, 1 blk on 6/9 shooting in 29 minutes.

    I’ll take a few turnovers for that kind of production.

  62. Juany8

    One bright note to take away from this: Amar’e just played a back to back and played pretty good offense in both. As he rounds into shape and starts playing 30 or so minutes a game he should help the offense quite a bit. Gonna need a lot of help on defense though, especially if Chandler is injured seriously

  63. d-mar

    jon abbey:
    the first 70 posts of this thread are hilarious, just ripping Melo left and right.

    this team basically lives or dies by JR Smith. less than ideal, but that’s the way it is, I think.

    Yeah, they come crawling out of the woodwork every time Melo struggles, just ridiculous.

    I agree about JR, but maybe less so if we can continue to get contributions from Amare. He took 15 shots tonight, which I can live with.

  64. jon abbey

    AnonymousODG: 18 pts, 8 reb, 1 ast, 1 blk on 6/9 shooting in 29 minutes.

    I’ll take a few turnovers for that kind of production.

    how many open layups and dunks did he give up on the other end, though? (this is an actual and not rhetorical question, but it sure seemed like a lot)

  65. johnlocke

    just finished the game on DVR. 9 3s, 42 points, 15/28 shooting. He just ‘unreverted’ from the mean..

    cgreene:
    Ruru, can you explain why Melo is playing so poorly last 10 games?

  66. Kurt

    Also, I believe that on that possession he didn’t get the ball in a good position, though have to look back at the tape.

    I’ll take a few turnovers for that kind of production.

  67. Kurt

    I want to look back at those open dunk plays, but I believe on one of them it looked like Chandler was helping Amar’e when it wasn’t really necessary.

    jon abbey: how many open layups and dunks did he give up on the other end, though? (this is an actual and not rhetorical question, but it sure seemed like a lot)

  68. AnonymousODG

    jon abbey: how many open layups and dunks did he give up on the other end, though? (this is an actual and not rhetorical question, but it sure seemed like a lot)

    As opposed to Brewer, Copeland and Thomas? I mean…these are the guys that would get his minutes otherwise. And I think all Knicks fans who watch games regularly know that Chandler is the most notorious offender on that note — I still don’t get how he isn’t called by writers/fans alike (too likable???).

  69. nicos

    flossy: To be fair, there’s no way Melo hits 17 threes or whatever it was tonight if he’s the one initiating the offense every possession.

    True. Melo got a bunch of great looks off of Felton running the side pnr.

  70. flossy

    jon abbey: how many open layups and dunks did he give up on the other end, though? (this is an actual and not rhetorical question, but it sure seemed like a lot)

    Amar’e was not great on defense tonight (surprise!) but neither was Carmelo… or Chandler… or Felton. Felton looked like Teague was about to make him cry at one point, and Melo just straight up doesn’t rotate when fast guards blow by Felton (and Chandler) out on the perimeter.

    At least Amar’e was scoring efficiently and rebounding– Chandler contributed a whole 2 points and 3 rebounds in his 36 minutes in addition to being a non-factor on defense (but hey he made the All-Star game! Go Eastern Conference!)

  71. lavor postell

    AnonymousODG: 18 pts, 8 reb, 1 ast, 1 blk on 6/9 shooting in 29 minutes.

    I’ll take a few turnovers for that kind of production.

    Definitely positive signs from Amar’e, but he seems to be a much better offensive rebounder and much worse on the defensive glass. He’s really poor at boxing out and then when he does box out he doesn’t jump. There were a few times today the Hawks generated extra possessions and easy points because STAT thought once he boxed the guy out the ball would just come directly into his hands.

    Also as a team our high pNr coverage is pathetic. I have no idea what the strategy is because opposing points are getting into the paint consistently and not only are we allowing easy layups, we also seem to give up a number of spot up threes. Chandler clearly was hurting so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt, but I’m struggling to remember the elite defensive unit we were last year under his stewardship. I know Shumpert is working back from injury and there’s no need to rush him, but I would like to see him getting more minutes when opposing guards are dictating the game to us.

  72. Juany8

    Also want to point out that the Knicks are just 2 losses behind Miami in the standings. For all the issues the Knicks have had, the 1 seed is still wide open at this point.

  73. nicos

    jon abbey: how many open layups and dunks did he give up on the other end, though? (this is an actual and not rhetorical question, but it sure seemed like a lot)

    That was probably his worst defensive game since the first two after his return. To be fair, Chandler didn’t handle the pnr much better than Amar’e did. Hopefully, it was a momentary blip and he gets back to playing the acceptable (C or C- most nights) defense he’s been playing lately.

  74. johnlocke

    I mean…i know this is the game thread, so overreaction is cool and all…but wow

    TheXman:
    This team seriously sucks, we’ll end up out of the top 5 by the end of the season.

  75. AnonymousODG

    Granted, I think 3 of those 4 offensive rebounds were lucky bounces or him fumbling about for his own missed shot.

    lavor postell: Definitely positive signs from Amar’e, but he seems to be a much better offensive rebounder and much worse on the defensive glass.He’s really poor at boxing out and then when he does box out he doesn’t jump.There were a few times today the Hawks generated extra possessions and easy points because STAT thought once he boxed the guy out the ball would just come directly into his hands.

    It’s always been my strong belief that you’re generally not supposed to jump when boxing out. You’re supposed to be jockeying for best position, not out-jumping your foe. And when you’re leaving your feet or getting ready to jump, you’ve essentially stopped boxing out.

    While a good solid jump after establishing strong position helps stave off people trying to knock the ball out (like Chandler does) STAT wasn’t really going up against those kind of guys. And, really, we shouldn’t be expecting Amare to be getting huge hops when his knees are suspect/sore.

    In sum, I felt the opposite on this from you, I thought Amare was boxing out much much better than he had been previously on defensive rebounds. And most of his offensive rebounds were lucky bounces to him or him fumbling with the ball after a missed shot.

  76. Kurt

    http://www.nba.com/games/20130127/ATLNYK/gameinfo.html?ls=iref:nbahpt6b

    Looked at this transition play. If you look at it carefully, STAT is covering Ivan Johnson during transition. Novak was back and was in front of Horford. But then, Novak leaves Horford to pick up his man Zaza, even though Zaza was being covered by Smith(?). This leaves Horford open for the dunk. On the other hand, STAT could have run back a little faster and seemed to get lost for a moment, which also could have stopped the open dunk.

  77. Z-man

    Great start to the 2nd half of the season!

    Amare really wasn’t that bad on D today, I saw Felton getting beat off the dribble by Teague, Chandler getting beat on several occasions, and Melo backpedaling when he should have been running in transition and getting beat by Josh Smith. Frankly, Amare has shown steady improvement on both ends since returning, he was very active going after loose balls and rebounds. That foul on Korver’s 3 was dumb, but he was not a complete stiff out there.

  78. Z-man

    @152, yeah, Novak seems more useless every day, I’m starting to regret that we signed him (I was definitely for it at the time!)

  79. Kurt

    Also, in all fairness to Chandler, the Teague-Horford pick and pop is lethal. I remember reading that Horford among the best if not THE best mid range jump shooter in the NBA. On one sequence, Chandler left to hedge Teague and Horford burried the J. On the very next play (shown in the NBA.com first half reel), Chandler overplays the pop and he’s badly out of position to hedge Teague, leading to (as Clyde would put it) matador D, even if it was a really nice move. On another play, Teague just turned the corner on Chandler and made a really nice play.

  80. lavor postell

    AnonymousODG:
    Granted, I think 3 of those 4 offensive rebounds were lucky bounces or him fumbling about for his own missed shot.

    It’s always been my strong belief that you’re generally not supposed to jump when boxing out.You’re supposed to be jockeying for best position, not out-jumping your foe.And when you’re leaving your feet or getting ready to jump, you’ve essentially stopped boxing out.

    While a good solid jump after establishing strong position helps stave off people trying to knock the ball out (like Chandler does) STAT wasn’t really going up against those kind of guys.And, really, we shouldn’t be expecting Amare to be getting huge hops when his knees are suspect/sore.

    In sum, I felt the opposite on this from you, I thought Amare was boxing out much much better than he had been previously on defensive rebounds.And most of his offensive rebounds were lucky bounces to him or him fumbling with the ball after a missed shot.

    I think looking back at it you’re right about the offensive rebounds. Some lucky carroms that he stumbled upon. A couple of the tips on the defensive glass came when he was matched up on Pachulia. From what I saw it seemed like he needed to jump to garner the rebound because of where he was positioned in relation to the ball and Zaza. Either way I think I would say that his rebounding has been better, but somewhat deceiving.

  81. nicos

    Another interesting note- no Chandler on the floor on the Knicks last offensive possession. It’ll be interesting to see if that becomes a regular thing now that Stat’s back.

  82. johnlocke

    I am one of Amare’s biggest critics on the defensive-end, but all things considered this guy has been playing great! He’s shooting around 60% from the field, and is a good FT shooter and seems to actually be improving on the defensive end. JR and Felton should not be shooting more than 12-15 times a game…MAX. I’d like to see some more focus on getting Amare in the PnR and in the post up game. His post up game actually looks legit and he added that this past summer, that’s pretty unbelievable. Felton just got back, Amare is just getting into his groover and Shump just got back…and we’re 2 games out of 1st place in the Eastern Conference. At this point last year I don’t even think we were an 8th seed. I just felt like I needed to inject some optimism here, that was a great game and awesome win!

    nicos: That was probably his worst defensive game since the first two after his return.To be fair, Chandler didn’t handle the pnr much better than Amar’e did.Hopefully, it was a momentary blip and he gets back to playing the acceptable (C or C- most nights) defense he’s been playing lately.

  83. ruruland

    Owen:
    What was the number? 55%?

    Knicks look ok. These Hawks are no pushover….

    I said minimum of 57, but I didn’t think his usage would be this high. Jowles predicted 54, I believe.

  84. johnlocke

    The problem on our Teague coverage was that we were not making him a jump shooter, the big guy has to help long enough for the guard to recover and not switch and then force the switching on the jump shooting big man (Horford) if necessary. Felton was playing too close to Teague not backing off enough and allowing him to blow by and cause havoc, pick or no pick

    Kurt:
    Also, in all fairness to Chandler, the Teague-Horford pick and pop is lethal. I remember reading that Horford among the best if not THE best mid range jump shooter in the NBA. On one sequence, Chandler left to hedge Teague and Horford burried the J. On the very next play (shown in the NBA.com first half reel), Chandler overplays the pop and he’s badly out of position to hedge Teague, leading to (as Clyde would put it) matador D, even if it was a really nice move. On another play, Teague just turned the corner on Chandler and made a really nice play.

  85. ruruland

    johnlocke:
    I am one of Amare’s biggest critics on the defensive-end, but all things considered this guy has been playing great! He’s shooting around 60% from the field, and is a good FT shooter and seems to actually be improving on the defensive end. JR and Felton should not be shooting more than 12-15 times a game…MAX. I’d like to see some more focus on getting Amare in the PnR and in the post up game. His post up game actually looks legit and he added that this past summer, that’s pretty unbelievable. Felton just got back, Amare is just getting into his groover and Shump just got back…and we’re 2 games out of 1st place in the Eastern Conference. At this point last year I don’t even think we were an 8th seed.I just felt like I needed to inject some optimism here, that was a great game and awesome win!

    Jr is playing pretty terrible right now, and he missed Amar’e quite a few times on the roll. Amar’e is playing every bit as well as I thought he would and he’ll get better. On many nights, there is virtually nothing that separates him from Chandler on defense save a stupid foul

    In fact on a per-paint attempt basis I think AMar’e gives better effort contesting shots and boozing out his man (on defense).

    Chandler needs a break, it’s unfortunate that both Sheed and Camby are injured.

    Melo hasn’t had his legs in a few weeks, really, but the beauty of his game is that he now has a 3-point shot when he really doesn’t have the pop to carry the offense for a stretch.

    But I’m not worried about Melo getting his legs backs. He’s not injured, so this slump won’t last long.

    JR has had some really bad stretches before, and he seems to be playing in a real fog. I think he’s mentally drained from the minutes and newfound responsibilities.

    Both guys will be fine.

  86. ruruland

    johnlocke:
    The problem on our Teague coverage was that we were not making him a jump shooter, the big guy has to help long enough for the guard to recover and not switch and then force the switching on the jump shooting big man (Horford) if necessary. Felton was playing too close to Teague not backing off enough and allowing him to blow by and cause havoc, pick or no pick

    pnr defense was terrible. Felton is providing no resistance, there is confusion on switches, Chandler is not heddging well at all and not helping…. give a team confidence through easy inside shots and they start making shots. It’s happened too many times this year.

    However, Woodson is not going to let this team be consistently bad on defense, not with all of the personnel back.

    The trendline still looks positive, and the Knicks have over a month where they can really get right on both ends.

    One thing no one wants to talk about is that the Knicks are playing a lot of lineups where guys haven’t had many reps with one another.

    Perhaps we’ve forgotten that Felton, Shump and Amar’e just don’t have many reps with Melo, Chandler et al.

    Surely you all can see the potential of Amar’e flashing to the elbow off a Felton/Chandler pnr or Amar’e flashing to the paint on a Melo double or Amare creating a double with his new post-moves and finding Melo or….. Shump consistently beating his rotating man (which has been really impressive)….

  87. JK47

    Amar’e has been better than I expected him to be right out of the gate. His TS% is now up to .606 and he looks like he’s in the flow of the game for the most part. He had a few ugly-looking turnovers today but obviously at a .606 TS% he’s bringing a lot to the table on offense.

    On defense he made some really stupid plays today– fouling Korver at the 3-point line was unfortunate, and that lane violation was hideous– but you can’t really single Amar’e out as a defensive liability when the team’s approach to defense is so flawed. As Lavor Postell noted above, the Knicks are HORRENDOUS at guarding the high pick and roll, and that is the number 1 reason why NYK allows such a high eFG%. The Knicks allowed a .677 eFG% today, which is just pathetic. If they don’t fix the high PnR defense they’re not going to go very far.

  88. ruruland

    Kurt:
    Also, in all fairness to Chandler, the Teague-Horford pick and pop is lethal. I remember reading that Horford among the best if not THE best mid range jump shooter in the NBA. On one sequence, Chandler left to hedge Teague and Horford burried the J. On the very next play (shown in the NBA.com first half reel), Chandler overplays the pop and he’s badly out of position to hedge Teague, leading to (as Clyde would put it) matador D, even if it was a really nice move. On another play, Teague just turned the corner on Chandler and made a really nice play.

    those aren’t the plays I’m worried about and you’re absolutely right.

  89. ruruland

    JK47:
    Amar’e has been better than I expected him to be right out of the gate.His TS% is now up to .606 and he looks like he’s in the flow of the game for the most part.He had a few ugly-looking turnovers today but obviously at a .606 TS% he’s bringing a lot to the table on offense.

    On defense he made some really stupid plays today– fouling Korver at the 3-point line was unfortunate, and that lane violation was hideous– but you can’t really single Amar’e out as a defensive liability when the team’s approach to defense is so flawed.As Lavor Postell noted above, the Knicks are HORRENDOUS at guarding the high pick and roll, and that is the number 1 reason why NYK allows such a high eFG%.The Knicks allowed a .677 eFG% today, which is just pathetic.If they don’t fix the high PnR defense they’re not going to go very far.

    they didn’t switch as much as they usually do. I think they need to switch more and stop doubling off of 3-point shooters.

    This strategy worked perfectly fine last year. The Knicks have the versatile on-ball defenders to make it work so long as they stop over-helping, and most of that is Chandler who makes so many risky rotations.

  90. Kurt

    John: I don’t completely understand your suggestion. How are you suggesting the big man hedge Teague? If you’re saying that Felton should just go under the screen I agree with you. But even then explosive guards really good at the pnr can exploit the extra space provided by the screen without shooting.

    Otherwise, it’s impossible to both hedge and at the same time prevent the open Horford pop without switching.

    johnlocke:
    The problem on our Teague coverage was that we were not making him a jump shooter, the big guy has to help long enough for the guard to recover and not switch and then force the switching on the jump shooting big man (Horford) if necessary. Felton was playing too close to Teague not backing off enough and allowing him to blow by and cause havoc, pick or no pick

  91. Kurt

    I have to say that Amar’e is not known as a passer, so I was pleasantly shocked at his long pass to Melo for the three. He also had another nice pass to Melo beyond the arc but Melo couldn’t decide what he wanted to do and turned it over.

    ruruland: pnr defense was terrible. Felton is providing no resistance, there is confusion on switches, Chandler is not heddging well at all and not helping…. give a team confidence through easy inside shots and they start making shots. It’s happened too many times this year.

    However, Woodson is not going to let this team be consistently bad on defense, not with all of the personnel back.

    The trendline still looks positive, and the Knicks have over a month where they can really get right on both ends.

    One thing no one wants to talk about is that the Knicks are playing a lot of lineups where guys haven’t had many reps with one another.

    Perhaps we’ve forgotten that Felton, Shump and Amar’e just don’t have many reps with Melo, Chandler et al.

    Surely you all can see the potential of Amar’e flashing to the elbow off a Felton/Chandler pnr or Amar’e flashing to the paint on a Melo double or Amare creating a double with his new post-moves and finding Melo or….. Shump consistently beating his rotating man (which has been really impressive)….

  92. Kurt

    I also noticed JR missing STAT on the roll. It’s concerning if Amar’e is going to keep playing with the second unit.

    ruruland: Jr is playing pretty terrible right now, and he missed Amar’e quite a few times on the roll.

  93. ruruland

    Kurt:
    I also noticed JR missing STAT on the roll. It’s concerning if Amar’e is going to keep playing with the second unit.

    rurulandds l: Jr is playing pretty terrible right now, and he missed Amar’e quite a few times on the roll.

    Jr will go through these stretches. The ball needs to be in Prigs hands more and in his hands less. This will happen at some point. JR just doesn’t have the endurance mentally (as it were) to consistently make the right decision with the ball in his hands.

    I don’t know why we’re not running A LOT MORE Prigs/Amar’e pnr. they’ll figure it out eventually.

  94. ruruland

    Kurt:
    I have to say that Amar’e is not known as a passer, so I was pleasantly shocked at his long pass to Melo for the three. He also had another nice pass to Melo beyond the arc but Melo couldn’t decide what he wanted to do and turned it over.

    ruruland: pnr defense was terrible. Felton is providing no resistance, there is confusion on switches, Chandler is not heddging well at all and not helping…. give a team confidence through easy inside shots and they start making shots. It’s happened too many times this year.

    However, Woodson is not going to let this team be consistently bad on defense, not with all of the personnel back.

    The trendline still looks positive, and the Knicks have over a month where they can really get right on both ends.

    One thing no one wants to talk about is that the Knicks are playing a lot of lineups where guys haven’t had many reps with one another.

    Perhaps we’ve forgotten that Felton, Shump and Amar’e just don’t have many reps with Melo, Chandler et al.

    Surely you all can see the potential of Amar’e flashing to the elbow off a Felton/Chandler pnr or Amar’e flashing to the paint on a Melo double or Amare creating a double with his new post-moves and finding Melo or….. Shump consistently beating his rotating man (which has been really impressive)….

    Amar’e, like Melo, drives to score. They both have blinders on when they go to the rim off the dribble.

    Now that Amar’e is playing more with his eyes away from the basket he can see the floor better and is more apt to wait and watch things develop.

    I don’t think in either player’s case their tendency to shoot is because they’re selfish, it’s their instinct.

    Both guys make the proper play out of double teams. I’d like to see more Amar’e post-ups.

  95. ruruland

    Begley: Carmelo Anthony is the first #Knicks player since Bernard King in ’84-’85 to have at least 15 30-point games in the team’s first 42 games.

  96. ruruland

    Kurt:
    John: I don’t completely understand your suggestion. How are you suggesting the big man hedge Teague? If you’re saying that Felton should just go under the screen I agree with you. But even then explosive guards really good at the pnr can exploit the extra space provided by the screen without shooting.

    Right, and if you try to switch, Horford is a very good post player (not to mention Teague is a .38% 3pt shooter)

    The fact that Berri’s tribe would claim someone like Chandler is better on offense than Horford is truly mind-numbing.

  97. Kurt

    I agree. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I loved it when JR spots up in the weakside corner and goes for the alley oop when his man turns his head. It’s perfect because even when his head isn’t on straight he’ll always have his athleticism. I think that’s a much better usage for him rather than leading the pnr.

    ruruland: Jr will go through these stretches. The ball needs to be in Prigs hands more and in his hands less. This will happen at some point. JR just doesn’t have the endurance mentally (as it were) to consistently make the right decision with the ball in his hands.

    I don’t know why we’re not running A LOT MORE Prigs/Amar’e pnr. they’ll figure it out eventually.

  98. ruruland

    Kurt:
    I agree. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I loved it when JR spots up in the weakside corner and goes for the alley oop when his man turns his head. It’s perfect because even when his head isn’t on straight he’ll always have his athleticism. I think that’s a much better usage for him rather than leading the pnr.

    ruruland: Jr will go through these stretches. The ball needs to be in Prigs hands more and in his hands less. This will happen at some point. JR just doesn’t have the endurance mentally (as it were) to consistently make the right decision with the ball in his hands.

    I don’t know why we’re not running A LOT MORE Prigs/Amar’e pnr. they’ll figure it out eventually.

    he still has the skill-set to be one of the better off-ball players in the league. The numbers are very straightforward on this. His 3-point shot will come around.

  99. Owen

    HOLY CRAP!

    Can’t believe i missed the ending of that game. Must have been truly epic on Carmelo’s part…..

  100. jon abbey

    ruruland:

    The fact that Berri’s tribe would claim someone like Chandler is better on offense than Horford is truly mind-numbing.

    watching him try to make a post move against Philly yesterday was sad/depressing, he is pretty useless on offense now that teams are expecting the lob every time.

    honestly he deserves to be an All-Star for his performance in the Finals two years ago and his DPOY level of play last year, but he has had a lot of dud games so far this season.

  101. Kurt

    http://www.nba.com/games/20130127/ATLNYK/gameinfo.html?ls=iref:nbahpt6b
    At 2:06 mark is the play I was talking about before. Amar’e is guarding Smith at the elbow and Horford, Chandler’s man, sets a slight screen on STAT. Chandler decides to trap Smith and Horford slips the screen with Smith finding him for the dunk.

    I can see why Chandler decided to hedge. However, I’m not so sure Smith is such a great ball handler that it wouldn’t have been better to just let STAT fight off the pick. Also, Smith, despite his rep for not exactly being a mensa candidate, always seems to have a good assist rate. If Chandler called a switch then Amar’e should have dropped back. But, even so, Horford slipping the pick like that put him basically behind STAT. Ironically, it reminds me of classic Phoenix Suns slipping the pick STAT.

    Anyhow, I think that play was more of a result of miscommunication/Horford slipping than bad defense on Amar’e’s part. The only way to avoid it is someone communicating the pick to STAT and STAT going under the screen because Smith can’t shoot.

  102. Owen

    Not sure any Berri-ite would quibble with Horford being a great player. He has graded out as a stud every step of the way.

  103. Owen

    Well, he was a perfect player in 09-10 and almost again the next year. And then he got hurt.

    Chandler does rate out better. But it’s not like WOW people don’t love Horford. We do.

  104. ruruland

    jon abbey: watching him try to make a post move against Philly yesterday was sad/depressing, he is pretty useless on offense now that teams are expecting the lob every time.
    ere

    honestly he deserves to be an All-Star for his performance in the Finals two years ago and his DPOY level of play last year, but he has had a lot of dud games so far this season.

    With his length and strength there is no excuse for not having developed a couple post moves by now.

    I’m not sure there’s another center in the league outside of Marcus Camby that can’t post up a guard or small forward on occasion.

    And to think he’s been turning down Olajuwon.

  105. ruruland

    Owen:
    Well, he was a perfect player in 09-10 and almost again the next year. And then he got hurt.

    Chandler does rate out better. But it’s not like WOW people don’t love Horford. We do.

    I don’t understand what you mean by love. You mean you appreciate a player based on his wp/48 number which corresponds to some perceived value?

    Fun fact: Tyson Chandler (alone) accounts for more than a third of the Knicks win this year.

    Steve Novak has produced more than twice as many wins as Carmelo Anthony in 400 fewer minutes.

    http://www.thenbageek.com/teams/nyk

    You just can’t make this shit up.

  106. nicos

    Kurt:
    http://www.nba.com/games/20130127/ATLNYK/gameinfo.html?ls=iref:nbahpt6b
    At 2:06 mark is the play I was talking about before. Amar’e is guarding Smith at the elbow and Horford, Chandler’s man, sets a slight screen on STAT. Chandler decides to trap Smith and Horford slips the screen with Smith finding him for the dunk.

    I can see why Chandler decided to hedge. However, I’m not so sure Smith is such a great ball handler that it wouldn’t have been better to just let STAT fight off the pick. Also, Smith, despite his rep for not exactly being a mensa candidate, always seems to have a good assist rate. If Chandler called a switch then Amar’e should have dropped back. But, even so, Horford slipping the pick like that put him basically behind STAT. Ironically, it reminds me of classic Phoenix Suns slipping the pick STAT.

    Anyhow, I think that play was more of a result of miscommunication/Horford slipping than bad defense on Amar’e’s part. The only way to avoid it is someone communicating the pick to STAT and STAT going under the screen because Smith can’t shoot.

    You could see after the play Melo made a gesture like “communicate guys” It’s odd, last season, especially early, you could hear Chandler talking a lot on defense during the broadcast- this year not so much. One thing (and maybe really the only thing) the Knicks miss about Rasheed is his communication on defense- it should really help Amar’e when they’re paired together.

  107. Unreason

    ruruland: Woodson is not going to let this team be consistently bad on defense, not with all of the personnel back.
    The trendline still looks positive, and the Knicks have over a month where they can really get right on both ends.
    One thing no one wants to talk about is that the Knicks are playing a lot of lineups where guys haven’t had many reps with one another.

    I agree about the importance of the main guys finally getting more time together on the floor.

    Unreason:
    Good to see this unit with Melo, Amare, Chandler, and Smith trying to work it out. The O looks good even considering that Melo’s night is anomalous.

    I’m less sure than you are about the defense. I have to admit that I don’t see the improvement in Amare’s D that you and several people have noted. He still seems prone to stand there looking clueless when everyone else rotates in unison. He’s always shown occasionally good man D, but I’ve yet to see a game where he showed signs that he could be consistently good on that end.

    He was not alone in sucking on D tonight. Felton is the other main culprit IMO. Teague is too fast for lots of guys to stay in front of, but Ray was just toast from buzzer to buzzer. And last night it wasn’t about speed. Jrue isn’t that fast. Hes a lot taller than Ray but not a lot stronger or quicker. But it was the same deal. Ray couldn’t do anything at all to even bother him and he just torched the Knicks.

    But obviously it’s not just the two of them. The team D that was so locked in the first month or so has just vaporized. If I start to see that come together again I’m going to get very very excited.

  108. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    ruruland: I don’t understand what you mean by love. You mean you appreciate a player based on his wp/48 number which corresponds to some perceived value?

    Fun fact: Tyson Chandler (alone) accounts for more than a third of the Knicks win this year.

    Steve Novak has produced more than twice as many wins as Carmelo Anthony in 400 fewer minutes.

    http://www.thenbageek.com/teams/nyk

    You just can’t make this shit up.

    incredulity = point proven

    QED, my friends.

  109. ruruland

    Unreason: I agree about the importance of the main guys finally getting more time together on the floor.

    I’m less sure than you are about the defense. I have to admit that I don’t see the improvement in Amare’s D that you and several people have noted. He still seems prone to stand there looking clueless when everyone else rotates in unison. He’s always shown occasionally good man D, but I’ve yet to see a game where he showed signs that he could be consistently good on that end.

    He was not alone in sucking on D tonight. Felton is the other main culprit IMO. Teague is too fast for lots of guys to stay in front of, but Ray was just toast from buzzer to buzzer. And last night it wasn’t about speed. Jrue isn’t that fast. Hes a lot taller than Ray but not a lot stronger or quicker. But it was the same deal. Ray couldn’t do anything at all to even bother him and he just torched the Knicks.

    But obviously it’s not just the two of them. The team D that was so locked in the first month or so has just vaporized. If I start to see that come together again I’m going to get very very excited.

    There were certainly breakdowns tonight, especially on pnr when the Knicks didn’t switch, but the Hawks efficiency is largely attributable to transition and semi-transition. This will be apparent when you watch a second time.

    The Hawks were only credited with 17 fastbreak points, but the scored a bunch before the Knicks defense was set.

  110. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: incredulity = point proven

    QED, my friends.

    Novak rb % = 5.1
    Melo reb %= 9.5

    Melo steal %= 1.3
    Novak steal %= .8

    Melo block % 1.5
    Novak block % .5

    Novak to %= 2.1
    Melo to % 8.9

    Novak ts %= 608
    Melo ts %= 570 (or so after tonight)

    The lesson: In order to game the WoW system of value, come into the league with a very limited skill set, be unable to dribble the ball or move, and only take super-optimal shots created by teammates. This can be achieved by simply passing the ball to a teammate regardless of circumstance if you cannot catch the ball in position to shoot.

    Let’s see if Jowles disappears now.

  111. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: incredulity = point proven

    QED, my friends

    Fact: If Melo took only spot-ups, off-screen, cuts, offensive rebounds, off rolls and transition shots –all off-ball shots which is what Novak is limited to (though he can’t do most of these things anywhere near as consistently or at similar volumes as Melo for a wide variety of reasons)

    here is what his true shooting percentage and turnover % would look like: .598 ts% 4.8 to %

    All of a sudden, Melo becomes a much more valuable player than Novak (when we consider all the huge advantages he has in floor stats)
    ————————————————————————–

    65/156 (43 3s) ( 6ft) 173

    34/65 (18) (7ft) 86

    9/20 (2 free throws) 18

    22/39 (3) 47 points

    18/29 (1) 9 free throws

    361+ 21 = 382 (total points)

    309 fga +.44(24) x 2 = 639.12

    382/639.12= .598

  112. jon abbey

    can’t we all just agree that WoW is the Scientology of hoops stats? it’s a waste of time even debating, it’s so obviously ludicrous to even the most casual observer.

  113. Owen

    No, I am afraid we can’t agree on that. Formulas are a blunt instrument no doubt, but in the case of Carmelo they at least remind us just how one dimensional a player he is.

    Great game last night though…..

  114. jon abbey

    so silly. I’ve said it before, but people are going to look back on WoW in a couple of decades and laugh and laugh. hell, I’m doing it now. it’s not a “blunt instrument” in this case, it’s a cockeyed, misleading, entirely worthless one.

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