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Sunday, October 26, 2014

2012-13 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Clippers

The Clippers are healthy again but they got absolutely spanked by an under the weather Heat team on Friday, so let’s hope that the Knicks can keep up the Eastern Conference’s winning ways over the Clippers today (the Clippers have lost eight of eleven, but a lot of those games they were missing either Chris Paul or Blake Griffin, so it is a bit misleading) I’m just happy that both teams were able to get to MSG to play in the game, what with all of the terrible weather this weekend! How weird would it have been to see the Knicks postpone multiple games in a single season due to weather?

Let’s go Knicks!

272 comments on “2012-13 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Clippers

  1. ephus

    That is exactly what we don’t want from Shumpert. He should not be trying to take people off the bounce early in the shot clock.

  2. Frank O.

    ephus:
    That is exactly what we don’t want from Shumpert.He should not be trying to take people off the bounce early in the shot clock.

    Yeah, he kind looked like bad Melo there, except he’s three inches shorter and without the strength and touch

  3. Frank O.

    Is it me, or is Chandler’s head not in it yet?
    He’s been hit in the hands twice and couldn’t hold it…

  4. johnlocke

    Terrible hands…playing like he’s asleep. Not been his biggest fan recently. Get Stat in there!

    Frank O.:
    Is it me, or is Chandler’s head not in it yet?
    He’s been hit in the hands twice and couldn’t hold it…

  5. rohank

    Forcing the passes here.

    The Clippers may have Crawford to mirror our JR, but NO ONE has an Amare off the bench

  6. Frank O.

    Knicks have decided to deny paint and accept the perimeter.
    Interesting to see how this goes. Paul I so good out there

  7. ephus

    JR Smith’s last tweet last night was @ 10:16 pm. Looking for a great game from a tanned, rested and ready Earl.

  8. Hubert Davis

    So, Hubie Brown is going to push the “Knicks shoot too many threes” narratives this whole game?

  9. johnlocke

    He’s especially good when he’s getting wide open shots…including one where Chandler just watched him like he’s John Wall

    Frank O.:
    Knicks have decided to deny paint and accept the perimeter.
    Interesting to see how this goes. Paul I so good out there

  10. maxwell_3g

    what will it take for us to stop the needless double teaming, leving the other team wide open for 3? a letter writing complain? an online petition?

  11. Juany8

    flossy: That was literally the worst transition defense I have ever seen.Just shameful.

    You need to watch more Lakers games lol, Kobe is and Gasol are just funny in transition

  12. Juany8

    This unit is just awful defensively. Novak and STAT are an awful frontline defensively and on the boards.

  13. maxwell_3g

    shump needs to start chucking up shots with melo and tyson out. at least it would give us a break from the JR chucks

  14. maxwell_3g

    ahhhh. the constant switching creates communicationj problems. how about this??? everybody stay with their man!!!

  15. d-mar

    Barnes couldn’t believe there was no one near him, so he thought about for a few minutes and then dunked

  16. Frank O.

    Different team with Chandler there.
    Novak gave up on that play. Stat yelled at him. Woodson too.
    But they’re sleep walking

  17. flossy

    Does JR have some kind of vendetta against Amar’e? He seems to go out of his way not to pass him the ball on the roll, or when STAT has established post position… or really ever.

  18. johnlocke

    Yeh it’s annoying.
    Novak playing like crap, JR playing like crap….. let’s get stat some post ups

    flossy:
    Does JR have some kind of vendetta against Amar’e?He seems to go out of his way not to pass him the ball on the roll, or when STAT has established post position… or really ever.

  19. Juany8

    Knicks need Sheed or Camby back, Chandler can’t be the only big against a team like the Clippers. Melo has no hope of rotating on the pick and roll to stop Blake Griffin on the move.

  20. lavor postell

    I love Chris Paul but this guy might be the biggest whiner in the NBA and that’s saying something.

  21. lavor postell

    Wow Felton are you joking with that? Make him pick that up before he’s 5 feet across halfcourt.

  22. JK47

    Chris Paul is murdering the Knicks. 14 points on 7 FGA, 5 assists, 0 turnovers, 2 steals, 2 rebounds.

    He just makes it look so easy. What a brilliant player.

  23. johnlocke

    He’s amazing…but we’re making it really easy for him. Chandler has dared him to shoot two wide open threes, pick and roll coverage is spotty per usual. On offense we are Melo dependent, no one else besides Ray has done much. Novak-nothing, Shump-horrible, Kidd-nothing, ….etc

    Juany8:
    Damn, Chris Paul is just ridiculous

  24. JK47

    I wonder if there’s going to be any defensive adjustment in the second half or if the Knicks are just going to continue to give the Clippers the same easy looks. If I see Tyson Chandler guarding Paul on the perimeter again I might just have to turn the game off.

  25. yellowboy90

    johnlocke:
    He’s amazing…but we’re making it really easy for him. Chandler has dared him to shoot two wide open threes, pick and roll coverage is spotty per usual. On offense we are Melo dependent, no one else besides Ray has done much. Novak-nothing, Shump-horrible, Kidd-nothing, ….etc

    Need to stop the elevator screen. It is getting Paul open looks.

    They went to a zone late but Tyson “got my popcorn ready” Chandler did not show.

  26. Juany8

    Why is the media so desperate to prove the Knicks are bad? They’ve been great since Felton came back, other than a bad loss the first game (see what happened to the Clippers against a depleted Miami team) they’ve lost literally one game, and blew out a couple of teams in the process. Knicks are still in this game, and if they win they’ll have the same record as the darling Clippers. Melo, and felton have missed a bunch of games too…

  27. Hubert Davis

    That halftime crew was terrible. Simmons is operating off of last year’s narratives. “That three man unit of Melo, Tyson, and Amar’e never looks good together.”

  28. ephus

    Am I the only who noticed that the Knicks went to a 2/3 zone for the last four minutes of the first half. Chris Paul recognized, and made the Knicks pay with a three, followed by a pull up jumper in the joints of the zone. Strangely, Chandler was playing the wing of the zone.

  29. Hubert Davis

    Also from Simmons: “they looked great those first two weeks because they hitting 3’s but we all knew that wouldn’t last and it hasn’t.”

    So, why are they 32-16 then?

  30. massive

    Hubert Davis:
    That halftime crew was terrible.Simmons is operating off of last year’s narratives.“That three man unit of Melo, Tyson, and Amar’e never looks good together.”

    “It’s just not their destiny.”

    Talk about conjecture

  31. ephus

    OK. Everyone who ha been calling for Shumpert to play defense on the 1. That was ugly. Shumpert tries to close out and then Paul. He does not have all of his lateral quickness back.

  32. Hubert Davis

    ephus:
    OK.Everyone who ha been calling for Shumpert to play defense on the 1.That was ugly.Shumpert tries to close out and then Paul.He does not have all of his lateral quickness back.

    It’s looked better on subsequent possessions. Starting to get excited!

  33. johnlocke

    He’s been better on D this half.

    Those hold the ball and dribble btw your legs moves may not be the most efficient but so sweet to watch when they drop

    ephus:
    OK.Everyone who ha been calling for Shumpert to play defense on the 1.That was ugly.Shumpert tries to close out and then Paul.He does not have all of his lateral quickness back.

  34. ephus

    As hot as Carmelo is, Woodson has to get him some rest in the next 8 minutes. He can’t play 44 minutes and be effective down the stretch.

  35. Hubert Davis

    Come on, Kidd. You are too smart to double off Chris Paul and give help on Blake 15 feet from the basket.

  36. Juany8

    Watching this game, is it so crazy to say that Melo is right behind the Lebron, Durant, Chris Paul group? He was up there with those guys in the Olympics when they were playing together, and he has looked fantastic this season when he doesn’t have to initiate the offense all the time.

  37. ephus

    Novak’s no-show gets Carmelo off the bench after two minutes of rest. He is going to play the rest of the way, if the game is close.

    Last two minutes, Novak looked as bad as possible on defense. His hedge on Bledsoe preceded a Bledsoe 3, then he literally had his back turned when his man (Billups, I think) launched a 3. On offense, Novak moved himself out of shooting position, so that he had to reach for the kickout pass and launch a 3 off the back rim.

    Novak needs to get back to last season’s stride.

  38. johnlocke

    He’s a net negative right now. I really have a hard time seeing him help come playoff time…too one dimensional, slow and unathetic

    Frank O.:
    Novak asking mental errors on D

  39. ruruland

    flossy:
    Novak is a great white vortex of suck

    He is a 12th man in a playoff series, like he had been his entire career prior to NY.

    Killing us defensively.

  40. flossy

    JK47:
    Enough of this Eric Bledsoe guy.Let’s get Chris Paul back in there.

    Not a good sign that Paul and Griffin can sit on the sidelines and watch their back-ups put the Knicks to bed

  41. ruruland

    I’m really worried about JR Smith’s total ineffectiveness as an offensive player for most of the year.

  42. flossy

    ruruland:
    I’m really worried about JR Smith’s total ineffectiveness as an offensive player for most of the year.

    Yeah, the fact that “Crawford vs. Smith for 6th man of the year” is even a thing is ridiculous. Crawford absolutely slays JR Smith this year and it’s not even close.

  43. JK47

    JR has played 83 games with the Knicks now and has a .499 TS%.

    Knicks can’t do shit in this 4th quarter.

  44. ephus

    All is not lost, because the Knicks have the Clippers in the bonus early. Expect lots of foul shots over the next four minutes.

  45. Hubert Davis

    Clips probably did enough in first 8 minutes of 4Q to withstand this run.

    Our guys look fatigued. Maybe Woodson ought to lay off playing Melo 44 minutes a game.

  46. ruruland

    flossy: Yeah, the fact that “Crawford vs. Smith for 6th man of the year” is even a thing is ridiculous.Crawford absolutely slays JR Smith this year and it’s not even close.

    Yeah. Really disappointed in JR’s first half. Needs to have a big second half. I still think he’s capable, he’s had some really crazy 1st/2nd half splits a few years.

  47. Will the Thrill

    Never really looked like we were really competitive with this team, weird because we played Miami so well.

  48. ephus

    This is the price Knicks fans pay for falling in love with JR Smith. I am sitting here, looking at mementos of earlier this season, with misty water colored memories, of the way we were.

  49. flossy

    In other news, the way Felton’s played in the 2nd half makes me think someone should smack him in the face before every game

  50. JK47

    I’m glad the Knicks lost this one by double digits and didn’t make some fake run to close within 6 or something. The score is a true reflection of the way these teams played.

    The Clippers are very, very good but the Knicks’ guard rotation is looking pretty awful. JR, Kidd and Shump were a combined 3-17 and the Clipper guards went berserk on us. Not an encouraging game today.

  51. d-mar

    Wasn’t just Crawford who killed us, Bledsoe was 6-6, 13 pts., 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 blocks and 1 steal – in 19 minutes. Sort of a Lebron mini-game.

    Very dispiriting loss, looked like we didn’t belong on the same court with the Clippers.

  52. Owen

    I might give Chandler a pass too.

    The Clippers are really good. They kind of have it all. Can’t really think of a single weakness other than maybe having too many guys….

  53. er

    Owen:
    Amazing to watch Chris Paul close games out….

    It ain’t that hard if u can sit the first 8+ mins of the fourth because Bledsoe n Crawford look like Cousy and Havlichek

  54. er

    Also this game is simple to see who performed and who didn’t with +/- Melo somehow had a -2 in 43 mins of a 24 point L. Look at the clips CP3 had a -6 while Bledsoe and Crawford are +20 + 17 respectively

    On the Knicks amare -19 jr -18 Novak -12

    Simple

  55. er

    er:
    Also this game is simple to see who performed and who didn’t with +/- Melo somehow had a -2 in 43 mins of a 24 point L. Look at the clips CP3 had a -6 while Bledsoe and Crawford are +20 + 17 respectively

    On the Knicks amare -19 jr -18 Novak -12

    Simple

    Sorry a 14 point L

  56. Hubert Davis

    Brewer & Novak have failed to stick.

    Coach doesn’t trust Pablo enough to give him real backup PG minutes, he’d rather play Felton 40 minutes a game.

    Camby & Sheed can’t stay healthy.

    Kurt Thomas and James White can’t be in a real rotation.

    We’re really operating with 8 guys right now. One of them is 40, one of them can disappear like today, and one is still getting into playing shape. We need a backup PG and either Sheed or Camby back.

    Welcome, All Star break.

  57. maxwell_3g

    that was awful. this team is very average right now. novak should not see the court anymore until further notice. melo needs rest and more shump, copeland, etc are going to have to be the solution. its not only novak’s lack of athleticism, but awful defensive decision making as well. i admit shump is not playing well, but he is also the thng that is most likely to improve by the playoffs, meaning that we absolutely cannot give up on him. he is our wild card

  58. ruruland

    Owen:
    I might give Chandler a pass too.

    The Clippers are really good. They kind of have it all. Can’t really think of a single weakness other than maybe having too many guys….

    Wait, you’d be willing to give Chandler a pass? Crazy.

    You’re right about the Clippers, and Paul has always been the game’s best closer.

    Chandler and Amar’e were outplayed pretty badly inside by Griffin, Hollins and to a lesser extent Jordan.

    Clippers will always outplay the Knicks backcourt, you just hope it’s not this bad.

    To me, it was Chandler and Amar’e not stepping up that was most important.

    Of course, because he took and made 4 alley-oop shots that had more to do with Felton’s penetration and had another good game with tip outs, he’ll look incredible statistically.

    But if he’s your first best player by a long shot, Owen, he’d better play like it a lot more frequently than he has this year.

    Notice how difficult it is for Owen to avoid these double-standards in his arguments.

  59. Hubert Davis

    yellowboy90:
    I’m tired of Tyson making back up bigs look like Dennis Rodman. But hey lest give him a pass.

    He tried real hard for two games when Woodson called him out and then went right back to playing half assed.

  60. ruruland

    Juany8:
    Does anyone else find it odd that Chandler didn’t finish the game? Is he injured?

    Getting killed on the defensive glass in the 4th quarter, no rim protection again.

  61. maxwell_3g

    clearly woody watches the tape, so he has to see what we see. can anyone come up with a reason to continue with the overswitching and overdoubling? do you think he has that little faith in our individual players and their ability to get through screens/ play individual defense? there has to be some logical reason, i just dont see it

  62. Owen

    I thought Chandler played ok actually. And the +/- numbers bear that out. I didn’t actually notice us getting dominated when he was out there.

    But yeah, I agree with the poster who noted that going small against a team like the Clips probably is not going to work out for us…..

    I do wonder if Chandler is hurt. Odd he wasn’t out there….

  63. ruruland

    Owen thinks Chandler outplayed Griffin today because Chandler made all 3 of his shots and Griffin missed 5 of 12 and got the line 5 times, with 4 turnovers. That’s 9 possessions Griffin used with zero points.

    Chandler only had two possessions with zero points.

    Never mind the double-teams and fouls Griffin was creating under the basket, or running ahead in transition and allowing opportunities for trail shots.

  64. Owen

    As I pointed out, it’s not like we got killed with Chandler on the floor. We actually got killed with him off it.

  65. maxwell_3g

    ruruland:
    Owen thinks Chandler outplayed Griffin today because Chandler made all 3 of his shots and Griffin missed 5 of 12 and got the line 5 times, with 4 turnovers. That’s 9 possessions Griffin used with zero points.

    Chandler only had two possessions with zero points.

    Never mind the double-teams and fouls Griffin was creating under the basket, or running ahead in transition and allowing opportunities for trail shots.

    i didnt think Griffin played particularly well until he hit a few j’s at the end. but chandler played like hot garbage today. the bottom line is that if the other team’s centers are deandre jordan and ryan hollins, we need chandler to dominate. he didnt at all

  66. ruruland

    Owen:
    As I pointed out, it’s not like we got killed with Chandler on the floor. We actually got killed with him off it.

    You realize James Harden has a -3.4 +/- this year, which is the second worst on his team among guys who’ve played 500 or more minutes, and is the 4th worst number among starters.

  67. Owen

    I guess today is a good day to continue your seasonlong attack on Chandler. Melo was awesome today. Take out two end of quarter heaves and that’s probably one of the most efficient scoring performances of Melo’s career.

    That said, Melo has stopped passing the ball. The rock simply isn’t moving like it was at the beginning of the season….

  68. ruruland

    ruruland: You realize James Harden has a -3.4 +/- this year, which is the second worst on his team among guys who’ve played 500 or more minutes, and is the 4th worst number among starters.

    Excuse me, second worst among starters.

  69. jon abbey

    yeah, another mostly lazy/outclassed effort from Chandler, glad people here are starting to notice those at least.

    but we know Chandler is very limited offensively (well, all of us except THCJ know that), the bigger point is that we can’t beat a good team without decidedly more from the combo of STAT/JR/Kidd/Shumpert/Novak on offense, 7-27 combined from those five, embarrassing.

  70. jon abbey

    Owen:
    I guess today is a good day to continue your seasonlong attack on Chandler. Melo was awesome today. Take out two end of quarter heaves and that’s probably one of the most efficient scoring performances of Melo’s career.

    That said, Melo has stopped passing the ball. The rock simply isn’t moving like it was at the beginning of the season….

    who the fuck is he supposed to be passing it to? the big men can’t catch and the perimeter guys can’t shoot.

  71. ruruland

    Owen:
    I guess today is a good day to continue your seasonlong attack on Chandler. Melo was awesome today. Take out two end of quarter heaves and that’s probably one of the most efficient scoring performances of Melo’s career.

    That said, Melo has stopped passing the ball. The rock simply isn’t moving like it was at the beginning of the season….

    Really, season long attack? GTFO.

    I’ve given objective and comprehensive analysis of his play. He does a lot of really good things every game, as I’ve consistently said, screening and tipping the ball out for extra possessions, finishing when he has an unabated opportunity at the rim

    He has been elite in those three areas.

    His defense has been below average, his defensive rebounding has been average at best. Those are areas the Knicks really need him.

    Outside of that recent stretch, he’s been very mediocre this year.

  72. jon abbey

    Woodson is also not doing an especially good job lately, it might be time to start Amar’e, which can coincide with playing more zone. starting Kidd and Shumpert is just not working.

  73. jon abbey

    ruruland: Really, season long attack? GTFO.

    I’ve given objective and comprehensive analysis of his play. He does a lot of really good things every game, as I’ve consistently said, screening and tipping the ball out for extra possessions, finishing when he has an unabated opportunity at the rim

    He has been elite in those three areas.

    His defense has been below average, his defensive rebounding has been average at best. Those are areas the Knicks really need him.

    Outside of that recent stretch, he’s been very mediocre this year.

    also, he is a total non-factor on most offensive possessions, the opposition just ignores him if he’s not right at the basket, as well they should.

  74. jon abbey

    even Chandler’s screens mostly result in open 22 footers, not exactly shots you want to be taking consistently (although NY does seem to hit more than their share of them).

  75. ruruland

    Owen:
    . Take out two end of quarter heaves and that’s probably one of the most efficient scoring performances of Melo’s career.

    That said, Melo has stopped passing the ball. The rock simply isn’t moving like it was at the beginning of the season….

    This is funny. He’s taken well above the average % of late shot clock shots throughout his career.

    The efficiency comment is lols

    Also, when Melo is singled up he scores extremely efficiently, always has, which is why he usually gets doubled. The Clippers and Wolves singled him, allowing him to score a lot of points very efficiently.

    Melo generally gets his assists when the extra defenders close on him in high pnr or when he gets double teamed.

    There was no other mode of attack that worked today outside of a few good drives by Felton.

    The Clippers had multiple modes of attack that worked.

  76. ruruland

    jon abbey:
    Woodson is also not doing an especially good job lately, it might be time to start Amar’e, which can coincide with playing more zone. starting Kidd and Shumpert is just not working.

    I don’t think JR should be getting minutes over Amar’e, which is clearly the decision Woodson has created for himself.

    More often than not he keeps JR in the game as the small forward.

  77. Owen

    Honestly, I just don’t see the same things you guys are seeing. I can understand why Ruru has a vendetta against Chandler, can’t have anyone stealing Melo’s spotlight, but Jon, I don’t get the constant negativity.

    Chandler played a perfectly serviceable 30 minutes tonight. He has to be accounted for at every moment on the offensive end. And he is defending as well as any center in the NBA.

    The problem with this team is that the ball has stopped moving.

  78. ruruland

    Owen:
    I guess today is a good day to continue your seasonlong attack on Chandler. Melo was awesome today. Take out two end of quarter heaves and that’s probably one of the most efficient scoring performances of Melo’s career.

    That said, Melo has stopped passing the ball. The rock simply isn’t moving like it was at the beginning of the season….

    Harden has a -3.4 +/- this year, the second worst number on the team.

    Your response:

  79. Unreason

    ruruland: Clippers will always outplay the Knicks backcourt, you just hope it’s not this bad.

    To me, it was Chandler and Amar’e not stepping up that was most important.

    I agree with the second statement but not the first. If the Knicks backcourt hadn’t been abused by every team good and bad for the last few weeks, I’d be with you. But they have been.

    The D in general is the problem IMO. Chandler gets no pass from me. He’s not the leader on D I thought he was. The atrocious perimeter D is really mysterious. Felton can’t be getting back into game shape at this point. Even if Shump’s learning to trust his new ACL, it doesn’t explain how ineffective he is.

    maxwell_3g:
    clearly woody watches the tape, so he has to see what we see.can anyone come up with a reason to continue with the overswitching and overdoubling?do you think he has that little faith in our individual players and their ability to get through screens/ play individual defense?there has to be some logical reason, i just dont see it

    Agree completely.
    Everyone’s communication and coordination are consistently poor. It makes me wonder whether Woodson is trying new things other than the occasional zone that are confusing everyone. Just speculation, but I’m lookin for ways to understand why they continually switch too much, double too much, etc. So even when the effort and intensity are there, they give up easy shots all over the place.

  80. ruruland

    Owen:

    Chandler played a perfectly serviceable 30 minutes tonight. He has to be accounted for at every moment on the offensive end. And he is defending as well as any center in the NBA.

    This is why no one takes you seriously here anymore.

    Second, I don’t have a vendetta against Chandler. Far from it. I think he’s great. He can be a dominating force. The Knicks need him to be a dominating force. He just hasn’t been very often this year. He can dominate a game with his presence, he has to give effort.

  81. Z-man

    OK, excuse mode: we have played shitty teams for a long time, causing bad habits.

    That said, there has been a worrisome trend developing…on the boards, on O, defensively…

    The switching and doubling is out of control. Why can’t guys just man up and fight through screens?

    Novak is a truly terrible defender.

  82. ruruland

    Unreason:
    ruruland: Clippers will always outplay the Knicks backcourt, you just hope it’s not this bad.

    To me, it was Chandler and Amar’e not stepping up that was most important.

    I agree with the second statement but not the first. If the Knicks backcourt hadn’t been abused by every team good and bad for the last few weeks, I’d be with you. But they have been.

    The D in general is the problem IMO. Chandler gets no pass from me. He’s not the leader on D I thought he was. The atrocious perimeter D is really mysterious. Felton can’t be getting back into game shape at this point. Even if Shump’s learning to trust his new ACL, it doesn’t explain how ineffective he is.

    their were great defensive sequences, but they usually occurred after scores. The Knicks can play great defense, and they’ll have to make a big run in the playoffs because you saw what an upper echeleon playoff team is going to do to the Knicks offense.

    The Knicks need to reverse that.

  83. ruruland

    For the record, that was the 50th game Melo had a ts % above .700 since 2006.

    One should assume that in most of those games he was taking far more difficult shots than his teammates and most of the players in the league given his usage and role throughout his career.

  84. Unreason

    Owen: Chandler played a perfectly serviceable 30 minutes tonight.

    I think this is right, but serviceable is pretty different than defensively dominant and I think his leadership on D has a huge impact on the team. So even if the number of plays he takes off isn’t much different than most centers, he decision to be relentless from the opening tip has a disproportionate impact. I admit I can’t back that up with numbers, but that’s how it seems to me.

    I think Melo’s being a willing passer has a similar effect on the team’s offense. I wasn’t as concerned about that today because JR’s shot wasn’t falling. JR’s willingness to look for Amare seemed more like the issue to me.

  85. jon abbey

    Owen:

    Chandler played a perfectly serviceable 30 minutes tonight. He has to be accounted for at every moment on the offensive end. And he is defending as well as any center in the NBA.

    The problem with this team is that the ball has stopped moving.

    he only has to be accounted for when he is right at the basket or has an open lane. he is zero threat anywhere else, not just to score, but to make a pass for an easy basket. even when he gets the ball deep in the post with a defender on his back, he is close to zero threat and rarely even looks to shoot. he is one-dimensional and many teams lately have been able to almost entirely take that dimension away.

    and again, as for the ball movement, who would you have liked to get more shots today exactly? Kidd is open constantly, gets the ball when he is open constantly, and hasn’t been able to buy a jumper for a month. Shumpert’s decision making right now is putrid on both ends, I think it’s much more physical than mental.

  86. ruruland

    Owen:
    Honestly, I just don’t see the same things you guys are seeing. I can understand why Ruru has a vendetta against Chandler, can’t have anyone stealing Melo’s spotlight, but Jon, I don’t get the constant negativity.

    Chandler played a perfectly serviceable 30 minutes tonight. He has to be accounted for at every moment on the offensive end. And he is defending as well as any center in the NBA.

    The problem with this team is that the ball has stopped moving.

    I’ve also been objective about Melo. He’s had stretches this year where his defense has been atrocious. I thought he did a pretty solid job today, but he can’t just decide to show up defensively against the playoff teams.

    Yes, he has a pretty huge burden on offense, and he’ll never be able to carry that load on offense and still be a great defender like Lebron, but he’s capable of stringing together far more really good defensive possessions than he has this year.

    He’s part of the defensive problem, to be sure. But most of it is the guards and Chandler refusing to contest shots in the paint.

  87. jon abbey

    honestly if Chandler’s effort level this year was as consistent as Melo’s has been, NY would be challenging OKC and SA for the best record in the league. again, I don’t think this would necessarily be the smartest thing, as NY needs max effort from Chandler in the postseason and not have him burned out by then, but it doesn’t make it any less true. as I said the other day, if Melo’s effort levels were as haphazard as Chandler’s have been this year, he’d be ripped on the back page of the tabloids constantly.

  88. jon abbey

    also, Chandler never has to be doubleteamed on offense, just stay between him and the rim and you’re almost always good.

  89. nicos

    I thought Chandler had an okay game- not what you want out of an all-star but not terrible. Again, this was a game where Camby or Rasheed would have really helped- I never, ever want to see Novak playing the four with Amar’e at eh five and three guards- he’s the most useless interior defender/rebounder I’ve ever seen. Also, our perimeter defense is never going to improve unless Kidd and JR stop spending all their time in the passing lanes/needlessly helping and start actually sticking their men- guards are basically granted free movement all over the floor by those two so it’s no wonder they’re getting wide open shot after wide open shot.

  90. ruruland

    Unreason: I think this is right, but serviceable is pretty different than defensively dominant and I think his leadership on D has a huge impact on the team. So even if the number of plays he takes off isn’t much different than most centers, he decision to be relentless from the opening tip has a disproportionate impact. I admit I can’t back that up with numbers, but that’s how it seems to me.

    I think Melo’s being a willing passer has a similar effect on the team’s offense. I wasn’t as concerned about that today because JR’s shot wasn’t falling. JR’s willingness to look for Amare seemed more like the issue to me.

    Why is it a challenge to understand that when Melo faces single coverage in isolation or post-ups he’s going to look to score, and most often that is a good thing because he’s going to do so efficiently, as Synergy numbers have shown his whole career?

    Second, the Knicks converted a very low percentage of their spot-up shots when guys were passing out of drives.

  91. jon abbey

    yeah, we really really need a hardnosed defensive big man off the bench. Martin, Amundson, Sheed, Camby, but SOMEONE.

  92. Unreason

    ruruland: Why is it a challenge to understand that when Melo faces single coverage in isolation or post-ups he’s going to look to score, and most often that is a good thing because he’s going to do so efficiently, as Synergy numbers have shown his whole career?

    Second, the Knicks converted a very low percentage of their spot-up shots when guys were passing out of drives.

    I not only get that, I was happy for it in today’s game. I think he has been a more willing passer this year in general. On days like today when he’s getting decent looks and other scorer’s are struggling I’m glad he’s not overpassing. That’s why I was pointing to JR. I thought he could have looked for Amare more, especially since he was so cold.

    I’m just saying Melo and Chandler are the leaders who set the tone on their respective ends of the floor. So Melo being a more willing passer is as key to the offense as Chandlers intensity is to the defense. When any perimeter shooter has it going, Melo generally has been, and it’s made the whole team much harder to defend. I agree with Jon that Melo’s effort has been more consistent.

  93. iserp

    Owen: That said, Melo has stopped passing the ball. The rock simply isn’t moving like it was at the beginning of the season….

    I agree, the ball wasn’t moving today and Melo started many isolations without looking for other options. I also agree with you in that Chandler was serviceable today.

    We have to start playing like at the beginning of the season. First of all, Kidd has to elevate his play, he is looking passive. Second, we have to get Felton and Melo some rest; Melo looks specially gassed on the offense at the end of matches, he moves very little unless he gets the ball. Third, we have to recover the balance with our 2nd unit; which is gonna be hard with Rasheed out. Now, a 2nd unit of Amare, Novak, JR, Shumpert and Prigioni is just a disaster waiting to happen. Not only we sorely lack in D because of Amare and Novak, but our offense consists in JR chucking (misusing Amare incredibly). If we are gonna let JR to chuck, we should bring a tough lineup with Rasheed and Ronnie Brewer (Novak should stay to open things a little, along with Prigioni), and if not, we should concentrate on playing through Amare, and try to make up for the bad D with the guys who switch the best (which should be Copeland and Shumpert).

  94. BigBlueAL

    Couldnt watch the game but its the 2nd time in 3 games the Knicks turned a close game heading into the 4th quarter into a double digit loss thanks to allowing over 30 pts in the 4th. That whole Knicks can play great D whenever they want just look at their 4th quarter defense argument is slowly losing validity.

    The Knicks really do have to seriously start looking for another SG/SF who can shoot. Not necessarily Dudley since I know we debated that yesterday but someone like him I think might be more important to acquire than another big man especially considering Sheed or Camby should hopefully return soon.

    Anyway whatever, hopefully they close out the 1st half with a win on Wed and get a week off to hopefully come out rejuvenated for the stretch run because March is going to be a brutal month.

  95. flossy

    ruruland: Harden has a -3.4 +/- this year, the second worst number on the team.

    Your response:

    I mean, do you honestly think Harden is the 2nd worst player on the Rockets? Is this a dig at Harden or +/-? I think we all recognize (or should) that Houston would suck ass without Harden.

  96. ess-dog

    His eFG is as low as it’s been since his rookie year. Granted, we didn’t have the cap space to get someone much better, but I’d prefer he wasn’t on the team.

    jon abbey:
    JR? are you crazy?

  97. ess-dog

    flossy: I mean, do you honestly think Harden is the 2nd worst player on the Rockets?Is this a dig at Harden or +/-?I think we all recognize (or should) that Houston would suck ass without Harden.

    Seriously, you bash WoW, but hang your hat on +/-?

  98. ruruland

    flossy: I mean, do you honestly think Harden is the 2nd worst player on the Rockets?Is this a dig at Harden or +/-?I think we all recognize (or should) that Houston would suck ass without Harden.

    Of course, not, Harden is great in many ways, I have a more nuanced opinion on him, but clearly he is a big part of their winning.

    I believe +/- can be a good indicator. I was simply refuting Owen’s point that +/- could be used to show Chandler had a good game when we consider the full context of what happened out there.

    If we just looked at +/- and if we just looked at fg %, you could be misled on his performance, especially relative to his abilities.

  99. Owen

    “also, Chandler never has to be doubleteamed on offense, just stay between him and the rim and you’re almost always good.”

    I mean, I don’t agree. Other teams have to account for Chandler all the time. Otherwise he catches a lob. Assuming anyone is looking to throw him one. There are few guys who make better targets in the entire NBA.

    Regardless, neither Chandler nor Melo were the story tonight. The second unit got torn apart and that was the difference.

    That said, at the moment I don’t like where the team is headed. I can feel the offensive dynamic changing substantially. Some of it is Amare perhaps. But the fluid, team oriented offense of the first 25 games is a distant memory at the moment.

    And, as mentioned by many, it also seems ludicrous we have exactly one guy capable of playing interior defense.

    And I can give Shump a pass all season, because I tore an ACL and it sucks. But he isn’t helping right now…

  100. flossy

    Has anyone noticed that not a single one of our collection of SG/SFs has a scoring efficiency any better than “terrible?”

    James White: .498 TS%
    JR Smith: .494 TS%
    Iman Shumpert: .440 TS%
    Ronnie Brewer: .434 TS%

    Felton’s also down in the toilet at .473 (though I think his playmaking for others balances out his scoring problems) and he and Smith are both 24%+ usage guys.

    Nothing could make me nostalgic for last year’s backcourt, but the when you think about how goddamn terrible the backcourt defense has been and then consider how none of these dudes can put the ball in the cup at even league average efficiency it’s really a minor miracle we’re 15 games over .500.

    I really don’t understand why Amar’e is the 24mpg player on this team and Smith regularly gets 36+.

  101. flossy

    ruruland: Of course, not, Harden is great in many ways, I have a more nuanced opinion on him, but clearly he is a big part of their winning.

    I believe +/- can be a good indicator. I was simply refuting Owen’s point that +/- could be used to show Chandler had a good game when we consider the full context of what happened out there.

    If we just looked at +/- and if we just looked at fg %, you could be misled on his performance, especially relative to his abilities.

    I always ignore single game +/-; I think anyone who appreciates the interaction effects going on between 10 players on a court would do well to do the same. +/- over the course of a season I think is more informative, but again, like the whole “Ronnie Brewer, superstar” WP thing, sometimes the formula is obviously wrong. James Harden is awesome and he’s the reason the Rockets don’t suck. If +/- says otherwise, that’s a rhetorical bullet I’d keep in the holster…

  102. jon abbey

    Owen:
    “also, Chandler never has to be doubleteamed on offense, just stay between him and the rim and you’re almost always good.”

    I mean, I don’t agree. Other teams have to account for Chandler all the time. Otherwise he catches a lob. Assuming anyone is looking to throw him one. There are few guys who make better targets in the entire NBA.

    they are always looking to throw Chandler lobs, he’s virtually never open. he’s actually not nearly as good of a target as he should be IMO, amazing how much (a few) people overrate him on the offensive end.

  103. JK47

    flossy:
    Has anyone noticed that not a single one of our collection of SG/SFs has a scoring efficiency any better than “terrible?”

    James White: .498 TS%
    JR Smith: .494 TS%
    Iman Shumpert: .440 TS%
    Ronnie Brewer: .434 TS%

    Felton’s also down in the toilet at .473 (though I think his playmaking for others balances out his scoring problems) and he and Smith are both 24%+ usage guys.

    Yep, which is why the Jared Dudley trade is not really such a terrible idea. A wing who can knock down a jumpshot with some regularity would be a welcome addition to this bunch.

  104. Owen

    ‘that’s a rhetorical bullet I’d keep in the holster…”

    I like that line….

    I don’t think James Harden is hurting the Rockets either.

    And again, having watched the game, I actually didn’t notice Chandler being the problem out there.

    What i noticed was the second unit looking like they were getting gored by a bull with Chandler and Melo were off the court.

    Going small is all the rage. But it’s pretty clear, having watched the Knicks play without a center for roughly 10 years, that size matters in the NBA. And we have too little of it right now.

  105. Donnie Walsh

    ruruland: This is why no one takes you seriously here anymore…

    If this is true, which I don’t think it is, it is more likely because you have chased away all of the people here that used to make this blog site great. Caleb, Ben R., even Mike, the site’s creator, never contribute here anymore. But you manage to write dozens of posts a day, condescending people who have been Knicks fans a lot longer than you. Get a life, dude.

  106. BigBlueAL

    flossy:
    Has anyone noticed that not a single one of our collection of SG/SFs has a scoring efficiency any better than “terrible?”

    James White: .498 TS%
    JR Smith: .494 TS%
    Iman Shumpert: .440 TS%
    Ronnie Brewer: .434 TS%

    Felton’s also down in the toilet at .473 (though I think his playmaking for others balances out his scoring problems) and he and Smith are both 24%+ usage guys.

    Nothing could make me nostalgic for last year’s backcourt, but the when you think about how goddamn terrible the backcourt defense has been and then consider how none of these dudes can put the ball in the cup at even league average efficiency it’s really a minor miracle we’re 15 games over .500.

    I really don’t understand why Amar’e is the 24mpg player on this team and Smith regularly gets 36+.

    To me this is why the rumors of a trade for Dudley (or for someone similar) makes alot of sense. Forget looking for another big man, they need another wing player who can shoot.

    But reading alot of Melo quotes on Twitter from after the game where he said Shump isnt going nowhere and the Knicks arent going to make any trades might make this a moot point lol.

  107. ruruland

    Owen:
    Going small is all the rage. But it’s pretty clear, having watched the Knicks play without a center for roughly 10 years, that size matters in the NBA. And we have too little of it right now.

    I definitely agree with that.

  108. BigBlueAL

    I need to stop watching Heat games until the Knicks hopefully play them in the Conf Finals because the more I watch them and LeBron/Wade play the way they are playing right now the harder it is to believe the Knicks have a legitimate chance of beating them in a playoff series. Luckily I dont feel the same way when watching any other team from the East.

  109. ruruland

    flossy: I always ignore single game +/-; I think anyone who appreciates the interaction effects going on between 10 players on a court would do well to do the same.+/- over the course of a season I think is more informative, but again, like the whole “Ronnie Brewer, superstar” WP thing, sometimes the formula is obviously wrong.James Harden is awesome and he’s the reason the Rockets don’t suck.If +/- says otherwise, that’s a rhetorical bullet I’d keep in the holster…

    Well, the Rockets have a lot going for them offensively besides Harden, and he’s been pretty atrocious defensively as well, which is sort of a given with his minutes and how much creation he has to do.

    But, he along with James and Durant are having historically great offensive seasons. There’s no denying that.

  110. ruruland

    Donnie Walsh: If this is true, which I don’t think it is, it is more likely because you have chased away all of the people here that used to make this blog site great. Caleb, Ben R., even Mike, the site’s creator, never contribute here anymore. But you manage to write dozens of posts a day, condescending people who have been Knicks fans a lot longer than you. Get a life, dude.

    Really, I chased them away? Why do you think that is? Why did Robert and Mike ask me to write for KB?

    I don’t post as often as you think. Certainly it would appear that way by this thread.

  111. flossy

    BigBlueAL: But reading alot of Melo quotes on Twitter from after the game where he said Shump isnt going nowhere and the Knicks arent going to make any trades might make this a moot point lol.

    Hah, yeah… he’s the boss, after all.

  112. ruruland

    Owen:
    “also, Chandler never has to be doubleteamed on offense, just stay between him and the rim and you’re almost always good.”

    I mean, I don’t agree. Other teams have to account for Chandler all the time. Otherwise he catches a lob. Assuming anyone is looking to throw him one. There are few guys who make better targets in the entire NBA.

    Well, actually, prior to the shot going up they have to account for him in just one way, the pick and roll.

    They only have to account for him with one defender.

    Good and great offensive players in this league demand more than one defender.

    Chandler’s screening and finishing is certainly critical to the pnr working, but Felton’s penetration is as well.

    Prior to the shot going up, Chandler doesn’t really have to be guarded on most possessions. And that certainly hurts the offense.

    It’s unlikely you’ll respond to this, but the Clippers largely shut down the Melo/Chandler pnr by sneaking an extra defender towards Melo on the strong side and sinking their big defending the screener into the paint.

    If Chandler had any semblance of a jump shot from the elbow-in area, he had a few uncontested pick and pop opportunities.

    The lack of any kind of jump shot can often mitigate the effects of his screening.

    When a player who is wide open inside 15-18 feet and cannot make a play, it forces the rest of the offense to play 4-5.

    Very simple stuff that anyone should pick up pretty quickly.

  113. nicos

    Owen:

    That said, at the moment I don’t like where the team is headed. I can feel the offensive dynamic changing substantially. Some of it is Amare perhaps. But the fluid, team oriented offense of the first 25 games is a distant memory at the moment.

    I’d say the biggest difference has been Kidd’s play- his TS% in November and December was .634- since then just .454. No one thought his great three point shooting was sustainable but he’s just cratered- he’s passing up open threes, guys aren’t running out at him anymore so those easy swing passes aren’t available, ect… He was as responsible as anyone for the great ball movement to start the season but now he’s not helping much at all.
    I’d also say that in Felton’s absence JR had to handle the ball a lot more and he hasn’t readjusted to playing back off of the ball since Felton’s return.
    Also, while JR’s run the side pnr well at times, it’s pretty clear he’d rather just go one on one- too many possessions have JR with the ball out high and when the big (usually Amar’e) come to set the screen JR either hesitates to run his man off of it or just plain ignores it. And Amar’e has been pretty diligent about actually setting screens rather than constantly slipping them as he’s used to doing. This leads to four or five seconds of everyone standing around waiting to see what JR’s going to do- that’s not helping ball movement much either.

  114. BigBlueAL

    flossy: Hah, yeah… he’s the boss, after all.

    lol yeah but I mean I wouldnt expect him to say anything else since he is essentially sticking up for his teammates. I certainly dont care if they dont make a trade but I sure think its something they should certainly look into if possible.

  115. flossy

    BigBlueAL: lol yeah but I mean I wouldnt expect him to say anything else since he is essentially sticking up for his teammates.I certainly dont care if they dont make a trade but I sure think its something they should certainly look into if possible.

    Yeah, I’m torn–now that reality has set in, this team badly needs help in several areas, but we have exactly one tradable asset and trading him now would mean selling as low as possible in a quintessentially Knicks-y way.

    Nothing against Jared Dudley (hell, he’d improve this team for sure), but during the off-season Shumpert was seriously discussed as a viable trade piece for Steve freakin’ Nash… 12 games later, he’s been downgraded to Jared Dudley status? Yikes.

  116. johnlocke

    When Wade is playing like this… it’s basically about who’s playing for 2nd. Wade’s play is demoralizing.

    BigBlueAL:
    I need to stop watching Heat games until the Knicks hopefully play them in the Conf Finals because the more I watch them and LeBron/Wade play the way they are playing right now the harder it is to believe the Knicks have a legitimate chance of beating them in a playoff series.Luckily I dont feel the same way when watching any other team from the East.

  117. BigBlueAL

    johnlocke:
    When Wade is playing like this… it’s basically about who’s playing for 2nd. Wade’s play is demoralizing.

    Thats true. Lebron is always great but what has made the Heat look so vulnerable has been how bad their big men (inlcuding Bosh) have been defensively and rebounding wise. Also Wade looking like he has lost a step. But lately it seems like he has found that lost step lol.

  118. jon abbey

    you guys know I’m a big picture, non-knee-jerk guy, but this season is looking more and more like we’re going out in the first round unless we get a favorable matchup. I’d take Miami, Chicago, Indiana, Boston and maybe even Brooklyn over us right now, so hopefully we can draw ATL or MIL.

  119. BigBlueAL

    jon abbey:
    you guys know I’m a big picture, non-knee-jerk guy, but this season is looking more and more like we’re going out in the first round unless we get a favorable matchup. I’d take Miami, Chicago, Indiana, Boston and maybe even Brooklyn over us right now, so hopefully we can draw ATL or MIL.

    No chance the Nets beat the Knicks in a playoff series and same for the Celtics w/o Rondo. I also dont think the Pacers would win a playoff series against the Knicks but that would definitely be a 6 or 7 game series. Bulls and especially the Heat would definitely be favored and rightfully so.

    If the Heat continue to play like they have recently they should just get a bye to the NBA Finals lol.

  120. cgreene

    That 2nd unit that includes Prigs, Novak and Amare simply cannot play together. Novak in particular is just killing us right now. I hate that rotation by Woodson. Also I hate the starting lineup w Kidd and Shump and I think that’s part of what is hurting Shump. He is playing out of position. Some bad coaching here.

  121. JK47

    This roster that was supposed to be 15 deep turns out to have a lot of dead wood on it. Copeland and White aren’t really NBA rotation players and the decrepit Camby-Sheed-Thomas trio is giving us a whole lot of nothing. Ronnie Brewer is deservedly a consistent DNP-CD and Novak’s usefulness is also pretty questionable right now.

  122. ruruland

    cgreene:
    That 2nd unit that includes Prigs, Novak and Amare simply cannot play together.Novak in particular is just killing us right now.I hate that rotation by Woodson.Also I hate the starting lineup w Kidd and Shump and I think that’s part of what is hurting Shump.He is playing out of position.Some bad coaching here.

    Amar’e needs to be getting 30 minutes. IOW, he needs to take Novak’s minutes. There are a variety of ways you can accomplish that.

    Novak only plays well against really bad teams. He’s a sort of an expensive secret weapon that should be used to reduce key rotation minutes against weak teams, and on certain occasions against good teams.

    The Knicks offense should be great running pnr and more Amar’e post-ups to complement what Melo does.

    JR needs fewer minutes, too, and needs to be involved in more screening and off-ball action.

    Prigs should get more minutes.

    Rotation should be tightened up. Novak and Brewer are situational players.

    If you can add a good wing defender that can shoot to that core, the Knicks will still be right there.

  123. ruruland

    And obviously you’re not likely getting that wing this year. Probably have to draft him unless you can get really creative for Dudley.

  124. ruruland

    cgreene:
    That 2nd unit that includes Prigs, Novak and Amare simply cannot play together.Novak in particular is just killing us right now.I hate that rotation by Woodson.Also I hate the starting lineup w Kidd and Shump and I think that’s part of what is hurting Shump.He is playing out of position.Some bad coaching here.

    Shump is getting some opportunities and I think he’s actually looked really good with many of them despite missing around the basket.

    He’s consistently beating the rotating defender. He’s just not getting calls at the basket yet. The rest of his issues seem to be not knowing exactly how to fit on offense. He needs to make plays with Kidd and Chandler on the court.

  125. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin: Thank goodness he didn’t play like this at the end of the last Knicks/Celtics game!

    In alot of ways I dont want anything to do with the Celtics in the 1st round of the playoffs. But in some ways I kinda would like to play them because eliminating them would be so sweet and w/o Rondo despite how good they have played recently I cant see the Knicks losing 4 of 7 to them.

  126. BigBlueAL

    We used to complain alot when Gallo was a Knick that he didnt shoot enough and just wasnt aggressive on offense. That certainly is no longer the case with him cause man he takes a bunch of horrible looking shots nowadays lol.

  127. Brian Cronin

    Pierce tied the game with a three with five seconds left at the end of the second overtime and then made a great play to stop Gallo from winning it at the end of the second overtime. Now KG has made three big outside shots.

  128. Brian Cronin

    George Karl’s obsession with Andre Miller is bizarre. Miller’s a good player to have, but when he’s out there, he always thinks he should be the one doing the ballhandling and not Lawson (even when Lawson is having an awesome game like tonight). The only way to dissuade him of this is to take him out of the game. In the last thirty seconds alone he overdribbled then got picked off and then he takes an absurd three that had no chance of going in.

    Big win for the Celtics.

  129. ruruland

    Brian Cronin:
    George Karl’s obsession with Andre Miller is bizarre. Miller’s a good player to have, but when he’s out there, he always thinks he should be the one doing the ballhandling and not Lawson (even when Lawson is having an awesome game like tonight). The only way to dissuade him of this is to take him out of the game. In the last thirty seconds alone he overdribbled then got picked off and then he takes an absurd three that had no chance of going in.

    Big win for the Celtics.

    Some of it stems from Lawson’s passivity. But yeah, Miller had some bad moments in the overtimes. He was very good in regulation, and is the one guy Karl can trust to consistently make half-court plays late in close games.

  130. BigBlueAL

    Well its not just jon abbey, not surprisingly Bill Simmons just now on ESPN and most people on Twitter are going on about nobody wanting to play the Celtics in the 1st round. Screw that, I hope the Knicks play the Celtics in the 1st round!! Actually 2nd round would be better, it would be like finally beating the Bulls in 1994 but with the same asterisk of MJ not playing back then and Rondo this season lol.

  131. Brian Cronin

    Some of it stems from Lawson’s passivity. But yeah, Miller had some bad moments in the overtimes. He was very good in regulation, and is the one guy Karl can trust to consistently make half-court plays late in close games.

    Oh yeah, it is not a knock on Miller in general, as he is obviously still a good player, but as you note, Karl trusts him to an absurd degree. The guy hadn’t done anything in any of the overtimes and suddenly he has the ball down two and is expected to just figure it out? You could see Miller was expecting Karl to call a timeout but instead he let Miller just play it out. I don’t mind that idea as a rule, but when a guy looks as frazzled as Miller did (and who just got picked off on a bad overdribbling play the prior possession!) just call the timeout, dude! It wasn’t like they were down three and he wanted them to get a three before the defense set. They were down two. Call a timeout and diagram a play!

  132. d-mar

    This overreaction to the Celts winning streak is exactly like the one when the Nets went on their tear after firing Johnson. The C’s have played 6 of their last 7 at home, let’s see them win some tough road games before we talk about how they don’t miss Rondo.

  133. jon abbey

    honestly I don’t especially care who they play, I just am losing faith in their ability to win a playoff series against anyone but ATL or MIL.

  134. Brian Cronin

    The Spurs are opening up a can of whup-ass on the Nets in the third and fourth. They were down six at the half and now they’re up 21 in the fourth with four minutes left!

  135. maxwell_3g

    ruruland: Shump is getting some opportunities and I think he’s actually looked really good with many of them despite missing around the basket.

    He’s consistently beating the rotating defender. He’s just not getting calls at the basket yet. The rest of his issues seem to be not knowing exactly how to fit on offense. He needs to make plays with Kidd and Chandler on the court.

    i agree completely. we are all over shump, but i didnt really expect much better 12 games in. he will be fine, and yes, trading him when his value is low would be a classic idiot Knicks move.
    ruru, as for stat’s minutes, i dont think he needs to be a 30 minutes guy yet. its not that i dont think he is better thannovak or JR, but I dont trust the knees, and ultimately, we need him fresh and healthy for the playoffs. if we are going to remove novak from the rotation, id like to see cope get a legit shot. as for JR and melo’s minutes, which both need to be reduced, they should be split between shump and cope

  136. ruruland

    jon abbey:
    honestly I don’t especially care who they play, I just am losing faith in their ability to win a playoff series against anyone but ATL or MIL.

    IMO, there are teams that you simply know are going to make it happen.

    This Knicks team is not going to lose in the first round, and they won’t get beat by any EC team other than Chicago or Miami.

    Melo, Chandler, Felton, Kidd, these guys will simply not allow that to happen against a Boston, Indiana, or Brooklyn team. It’s not based on anything other than feel.

    Melo is not going down in the first round again. Believe that.

  137. ruruland

    maxwell_3g: i agree completely.we are all over shump, but i didnt really expect much better 12 games in.he will be fine, and yes, trading him when his value is low would be a classic idiot Knicks move.
    ruru, as for stat’s minutes, i dont think he needs to be a 30 minutes guy yet.its not that i dont think he is better thannovak or JR, but I dont trust the knees, and ultimately, we need him fresh and healthy for the playoffs.if we are going to remove novak from the rotation, id like to see cope get a legit shot.as for JR and melo’s minutes, which both need to be reduced, they should be split between shump and cope

    Cope is worth giving another look. He simply can’t be worse defensively or rebounding, and his offensive versatility can help open up non-Melo lineups.

    Amar’e been out for so long, I think he’s ready for 30 minutes.

    Woody eventually relented on forcing Brewer into the lineup, I think he’ll eventually make the shift with Amar’e and Novak.

    Loyalty strikes both ways.

  138. ruruland

    “We stuck to our game plan,” Chauncey Billups said. “Melo was having a huge night, but that’s what we were giving up…He’s such a great player and he’s going to, at some point, get his numbers, but we can’t let him get his numbers and everybody else make 15, 16 threes.”

    Why is it that every player in the NBA seems to understand that certain players create double teams, which create open shots for others?

    Why would an NBA team have a game plan to single team a player in order to limit the scoring of others if every player was solely responsible for everything they did on the court?

  139. jon abbey

    ruruland: IMO, there are teams that you simply know are going to make it happen.

    This Knicks team is not going to lose in the first round, and they won’t get beat by any EC team other than Chicago or Miami.

    Melo, Chandler, Felton, Kidd, these guys will simply not allow that to happen against a Boston, Indiana, or Brooklyn team. It’s not based on anything other than feel.

    Melo is not going down in the first round again. Believe that.

    hope you’re right, man. I’m certainly cheering that way, just not too optimistic currently.

  140. yellowboy90

    One thing that disappoints me with this Knicks staff is their stubbornness not to add a big while Wallace and Camby is out. You can’t have Noavk and Amar’e as your 4 & 5 that’s just retarded. If you are that crazy to have them out there at least go to a zone.

    Also, White’s contract was structured as a trade chip like Gadz was. So will that be an off season trade chip or will they get some help now? Now means after the all-star break.

  141. massive

    Ehh, we lost to the Clippers. It’s not like the completely unacceptable loss against Washington. Raymond Felton predictably couldn’t stop Chris Paul in the waning minutes of the 4th. Jamal Crawford made a living off of 19 footers. Our bench couldn’t stop theirs. These sorta things aren’t so bad when the team you’re playing is a better version of you. I doubt JR, Chandler, and Shumpert play that bad in the Spring.

  142. Frank

    massive:
    Ehh, we lost to the Clippers. It’s not like the completely unacceptable loss against Washington. Raymond Felton predictably couldn’t stop Chris Paul in the waning minutes of the 4th. Jamal Crawford made a living off of 19 footers. Our bench couldn’t stop theirs. These sorta things aren’t so bad when the team you’re playing is a better version of you. I doubt JR, Chandler, and Shumpert play that bad in the Spring.

    co-sign on this. I just think it was a little disconcerting to see how badly our bench got outplayed by theirs.

    Much as I love Novak, I think he belongs in Ronnie Brewer jail right now, at least for most of the game. I think he is best played when the Knicks are up 5+ late in the game and we are looking for the knockout punch — it sure seems he never misses in that circumstance. But his defense is just God-awful. I can’t imagine Copeland can’t give us what Novak is giving us now and also play slightly better defense.

    And maybe I missed it in the 260+ comments above, but putting Shump on a guy like Crawford is why you have a guy like Shump. Why not put him in? Crawford just killed us.

    yellowboy90: One thing that disappoints me with this Knicks staff is their stubbornness not to add a big while Wallace and Camby is out.

    They like James White for whatever reason. I don’t have a problem with not overreacting to injuries mid-season. At some point, one of the Wallace/camby combo will be healthy, and then you’d just have Lou Amundsen sitting at the end of the bench rather than White.

    On this roster we currently have 5 guys capable of playing the PF or C at a high level (Tyson, Sheed, Camby, STAT, Melo). That should be enough depth. Just bad luck with injuries so far, but it’s only Feb.

  143. Frank

    And re: Shump – agree with ruru that he looks a little lost out there. He looks hesitant to pull the trigger from 3 when open, and when he gets to the basket, looks like he’s afraid to take it strong. IMO where he’s looked best is on side PNR as secondary action – some really nice dishes to the roller – so maybe they should run more of that to get him into a flow?

    On defense, it really looks like he doesn’t know what he’s supposed to be doing out there from a team defense perspective. My feeling is that he just needs practice — remember he went through an abbreviated training camp as a rookie, then no training camp this year. This year’s team is completely different than the team he played on last year in terms of his role, so it’s not surprising to me that he is a little lost. That plus the fact that he’s really still a rookie…

    btw, to add to the cries against the second unit with Amare/Novak/JR/Prigs – Knicks are -10 per 100 poss with that unit on the floor. And surprisingly, it can’t score – 0.97 PPP for, 1.07 PPP-against. Need to figure something out, although it’ll probably be made better when Rasheed comes back. If he can even give us 5 minutes per half with that 4some, that would be huge, because the first 5-6 minutes of the 2nd and 4th seem to be a big problem.

  144. jon abbey

    Frank: co-sign on this.I just think it was a little disconcerting to see how badly our bench got outplayed by theirs.

    Much as I love Novak, I think he belongs in Ronnie Brewer jail right now, at least for most of the game.I think he is best played when the Knicks are up 5+ late in the game and we are looking for the knockout punch — it sure seems he never misses in that circumstance.But his defense is just God-awful.I can’t imagine Copeland can’t give us what Novak is giving us now and also play slightly better defense.

    And maybe I missed it in the 260+ comments above, but putting Shump on a guy like Crawford is why you have a guy like Shump. Why not put him in? Crawford just killed us.

    They like James White for whatever reason. I don’t have a problem with not overreacting to injuries mid-season. At some point, one of the Wallace/camby combo will be healthy, and then you’d just have Lou Amundsen sitting at the end of the bench rather than White.

    On this roster we currently have 5 guys capable of playing the PF or C at a high level (Tyson, Sheed, Camby, STAT, Melo). That should be enough depth. Just bad luck with injuries so far, but it’s only Feb.

    what this leaves out is Kurt Thomas, no reason to not drop him and try one of the other guys while we’re waiting for Sheed and Camby. it’s been weeks without a serviceable defensive big behind Chandler, it’s been hurting the team and wearing down Tyson.

  145. Owen

    “what this leaves out is Kurt Thomas, no reason to not drop him and try one of the other guys while we’re waiting for Sheed and Camby. it’s been weeks without a serviceable defensive big behind Chandler, it’s been hurting the team and wearing down Tyson.”

    Yeah, agreed. When your starting power forward is 6’6 and your backup big off the bench is Amare, it’s not a recipe for an elite defense. We need to get reinforcements. It made a big difference having Sheed and Camby around.

  146. Nick C.

    I would assume some of Tyson’s defensive passivity stems from a fear of foul trouble. So a competent backup would be nice. Has he or Woodson ever said anything?

  147. Owen

    Yeah, it’s been an issue. Reference in a NYT article earlier this month….

    “Chandler knew Woodson was watching him closely. They had talked at Tuesday’s practice. In Woodson’s opinion, Chandler had been passive on offense and was too worried about getting into foul trouble.”.

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