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Wednesday, April 23, 2014

2012-13 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Bulls

If you love watching low usage centers go at it, this is your game.

Will be interesting to see if the Knicks can keep the three point shooting going as well.

Have at it….

132 comments on “2012-13 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Bulls

  1. Juany8

    So I think with this season Rasheed has pretty much become my favorite player of all time. He has an awesome, unique game and he’s one of the funniest athletes of all time. Entire teams don’t get as many technicals as Rasheed Wallace

  2. Owen Post author

    The Knicks play so hard, it’s fun to watch. Did not expect this kind of effort from this year’s edition.

    That said, great perimeter defense from the Bulls, they are working pretty hard too…..

    Sheed, I don’t know. His willingness to shoot at any provocation might wear on me. But it’s fun to watch him for sure and he is an amazing story this year….

  3. Juany8

    So Toney Douglas officially looks like an NBA player again. If he keeps it up, that’s the most mind blowing story of the season. At this rate the Rockets be talking about the Toney Douglas trade as a bigger deal than the Lin signing lol

  4. Owen Post author

    Not really sure what happened to Toney last year. No one really cared enough I think to get to the bottom of it. But it was really strange after what he showed as a rookie. Makes all the sense that he is back to being a rotation guy….

  5. BigBlueAL

    TD’s shoulder last season was never close to 100% I assume. People forget that TD lead the NBA in 3pters made after the All-Star break which coincided with the Melo trade. What happened to him last season was mind boggling.

  6. Nick C.

    Didn’t TD have some girlfriend issue. I think it involved a difficult pregnancy but that may just be a guesstimate

  7. johnlocke

    This game has ZERO entertainment value. Just need the W

    Owen:
    Go Novak!

    For fans of gritty rebounding, this game is a blockbuster…

  8. yellowboy90

    Just caught up on dvr. Sheed is doing work on D. In WGN(Chi) you can hear him talking on D. I wish they would post him up. If I have one problem with Woody it is that he doesn’t tell them to go to sheed down low. Noah can take away Chandler on the lob. Also, Gibson being out should help Novak get more shots. They will play small on Novak and he should be able to shoot over whoever is guarding him baring Deng.

  9. yellowboy90

    EB:
    I kind of want to see Copeland in there tonight, take advantage of Boozer’s defense.

    Sheed should be in the post killing him. No one can challenge his shot down low and Boozer is terrible on D so why he is not posting up is beyond all of us.

  10. Owen Post author

    Wow, James Harden. Thirty point half for Houston. On 15 true shots. That should help his percentages….

  11. EB

    yellowboy90: Sheed should be in the post killing him. No one can challenge his shot down low and Boozer is terrible on D so why he is not posting up is beyond all of us.

    In full support of Sheed in the post, we need another scoring option whoever it is.

  12. d-mar

    This is some butt ugly basketball, but I give the Bulls credit, they play some serious in your face defense. First team to 80 wins.

  13. johnlocke

    Kobe is wrong for clowning his teammates on not knowing Lincoln gets killed at the end of the movie…lol. Did he also have to warn them that the Titanic was gonna sink?

  14. Will the Thrill

    So much for JR having a break out year, he has been horrendous since his burst in the beginning of the season (minus the buzzer beater)

  15. BigBlueAL

    Listening to the Bulls broadcast you would think the Knicks have the worst record in the league.

  16. David Crockett

    BigBlueAL:
    Listening to the Bulls broadcast you would think the Knicks have the worst record in the league.

    They’re notorious for being fanboys.

  17. johnlocke

    he’s done a solid job. Ray, Kidd, White, Sheed, Chandler would be the lineup I’d go with to end the game…but of course, JR will never ever sit

    yellowboy90:
    White is looking very nice.

  18. Owen Post author

    Yeah, props to White. Having a really nice game. He actually looks like he knows how to play. And obviously has the athleticism….

  19. Owen Post author

    JR is having the worst game I have seen from him.

    How we didn’t get a bucket out of that sequence I don’t know…

  20. johnlocke

    Dude is doing nothing right, but woody stays iwth him…

    Owen:
    JR is having the worst game I have seen from him.

    How we didn’t get a bucket out of that sequence I don’t know…

  21. Owen Post author

    This is an ugly game. Brings me back to the mid-nineties…

    Also, I love how clyde calls him Knorr like the the soup, rather than Noah….

  22. johnlocke

    I would never be one to say one player cost us a game…. but JR, he taketh away again and again and giveth nothing in this game

  23. David Crockett

    WOW.

    Never seen a call changed to an offensive foul. JR was clearly in the circle.

    That was bad. No call I could see, but that was awful.

  24. Owen Post author

    Yeah, puzzler. Never seen that. Almost like those refs wanted to be the first to do it…..

    Slipping away here….

  25. Owen Post author

    Can’t believe the minutiae involved in rules, including the fact that if your heel is up but over the restricted area line, it’s a block….

  26. Owen Post author

    If Jr doesn’t ice this game for the bulls with a tech i will be shocked…..

    the kettle is boiling over….

    crappy call in his defense, had deng locked up….

  27. BigBlueAL

    Bulls are on a 2nd night of a back-to-back w/o Rose plus Hinrich and Gibson for the entire 2nd half. Pretty bad game for the Knicks tonight.

  28. David Crockett

    Noah is really controlling the defensive painted area.

    A bunch of weak stuff going up in there.

  29. johnlocke

    JR is not tall enough to guard Deng, Brew locked him up in the first half…but coach looking for offense….great.

  30. David Crockett

    Owen:
    Felton……

    Maybe kick it to Novak for three?

    To their credit, the Bulls are forcing NY to finish at the rim.

  31. Nick C.

    Not a pretty game for sure, but the Knicks are without Melo. His shots seem to have all gone to a very off JR and Felton.

  32. David Crockett

    BigBlueAL:
    Bulls are on a 2nd night of a back-to-back w/o Rose plus Hinrich and Gibson for the entire 2nd half.Pretty bad game for the Knicks tonight.

    In fairness, they played Detroit. Chi vs Det might be the easiest roadie in the league.

  33. BigBlueAL

    David Crockett: In fairness, they played Detroit. Chi vs Det might be the easiest roadie in the league.

    They are also missing Hamilton. But it doesnt matter because apparently Belinelli is a huge upgrade over him judging by how the Knicks cant guard him.

  34. johnlocke

    Game is over. Woody can look to his idiotic stubbornness in not sitting JR. Oh well. 2-1 not bad, but JR is truly an agonizing player to watch play bball when he’s off

  35. Owen Post author

    Felton took too many shots. Had a lot of opportunities to dish to open three point shooters. Think he can smell an all star berth.

  36. BigBlueAL

    Unfortunately I cant get back these last 2 1/2 hours of my life I wasted watching this atrocious game lol. Wouldve been alot easier to watch if the Knicks wouldve won.

    If Melo is out tomorrow night gonna be tough for the Knicks to win I fear.

  37. Owen Post author

    It’s been a titanic battle between Chandler and Noah, fun to watch if you like that kind of thing….

    Which i definitely do….

  38. johnlocke

    The battle between my brain and watching JR not use his….was especially painful

    Owen:
    It’s been a titanic battle between Chandler and Noah, fun to watch if you like that kind of thing….

    Which i definitely do….

  39. Owen Post author

    Yeah, Nate played a really really nice game….

    Nuggets will be interesting. Strikes me Melo is likely to be back. Would be a suitable return date…

  40. BigBlueAL

    Felton finished 9 for 30 and JR 4 for 14. They took 44 shots compared to the rest of the team who combined took 40 shots.

  41. BigBlueAL

    Owen:
    Yeah, Nate played a really really nice game….

    Nuggets will be interesting. Strikes me Melo is likely to be back. Would be a suitable return date…

    Shot 4 for 15 so not exactly on fire. Did have 8 asts and 6 rebs with only 2 to’s though.

  42. DRed

    BigBlueAL:
    Felton finished 9 for 30 and JR 4 for 14.They took 44 shots compared to the rest of the team who combined took 40 shots.

    That’s what shot creators do.

    Anyone can create shots. The trick is treating good shots. Melo doesn’t really do that either, but he does it better than Felton and JR.

  43. ruruland

    Glew:
    whelp fellas can anyone still say melo’s shot creation is not important to this team?

    Yes, they’ll be coming out of the woodwork when it’s conveniant.

  44. ruruland

    BigBlueAL:
    Felton finished 9 for 30 and JR 4 for 14.They took 44 shots compared to the rest of the team who combined took 40 shots.

    You think were just chucking because it looked cool, or perhaps the Bulls weren’t helping off shooters?.

    Total mystery. Maybe Owen, Dred and THCJ can explain.

  45. Glew

    Exactly my point, without Carmelo creating then this is the next best offense which was frankly just hard to even watch

  46. DRed

    ruruland: You think were just chucking because it looked cool, or perhaps the Bulls weren’t helping off shooters?.

    Total mystery. Maybe Owen, Dred and THCJ can explain.

    Well, Felton is one of the best players in basketball at the high pick and roll. He’s an amazing fit on the Knicks, and anyone who thinks differently is a dumbass. Especially people who mention that Felton isn’t an efficient scorer.

  47. BigBlueAL

    ruruland: You think were just chucking because it looked cool, or perhaps the Bulls weren’t helping off shooters?.

    Total mystery. Maybe Owen, Dred and THCJ can explain.

    There were definitely some horrible shots between Felton and JR though. The Bulls are the best defensive team and they didnt give Novak any space at all to shot but still Felton and JR did not have to force up some of the shots they did.

    Sure wouldve been nice to have had Amar’e tonight especially once Gibson was thrown out of the game.

  48. BigBlueAL

    DRed: Well, Felton is one of the best players in basketball at the high pick and roll.He’s an amazing fit on the Knicks, and anyone who thinks differently is a dumbass.Especially people who mention that Felton isn’t an efficient scorer.

    People who dont like Felton will never like him and will only point out his main weakness which unfortunately was out in full force tonight.

    One thing you cant criticize him for this season is what shape he is in. He is looking quick as hell in some of his drives to the basket.

  49. DRed

    BigBlueAL: People who dont like Felton will never like him and will only point out his main weakness which unfortunately was out in full force tonight.

    One thing you cant criticize him for this season is what shape he is in.He is looking quick as hell in some of his drives to the basket.

    Felton’s a decent point guard. I have nothing against a non-fat Felton. But he is what he is, and what he is is someone who shoots too much and misses too often.

  50. Will the Thrill

    Pretty sure it doesn’t matter what kind of shot JR gets (whether he creates it or Melo does), it isn’t going in these days.

  51. Brian Cronin

    You really can’t ever complain about Felton shooting too much when melo is out. 30 shots is still pretty hilarious.

    Good JR coming back would be nice. I can’t blame Woody fot sticking with him, though, since so much of JR’s success is tied up in confidence and Woody’s relationship with JR is based on Woody’s faith in him. If he starts showing JR up, it will not be good and Woody knows it.

  52. jon abbey

    yep, we needed JR to play a lot better in that game. Noah singlehandedly stopped the Felton/Chandler pick and roll for most of the game, although not as badly as Sheed was abusing Boozer on D.

  53. Juany8

    Although JR can create in a pinch, that’s really not his strength. He can’t get to the rim off the dribble all that well, which means his shot ration is mostly shooting fadeaways, and he’s a solid, but not great, passer. He works as a nice utility player off the ball, but when he gets asked to actually create shots because there are no other good options, he will struggle. As some have said, that will be the biggest advantage of getting Amar’e back, suddenly the Knicks will be able to run an effective pick and roll the entire game instead of just when Chandler is in. Should help put JR off the ball a bit more, which will help his numbers.

    As far as shot creation, when you’re making tough 3′s against a crappy defense like Miami, you’re going to score a ton of points. When you’re not making those same tough 3′s against an elite defense? Not so much. That’s where the true value of a shot creator lies, did no one look at Felton and JR’s attempts to attack the defense and think they could live with some Melo post ups right about now? The Bulls shut down the pick and roll with Chandler, at that point the best options are really Felton, JR, and Sheed jacking up shots.

  54. ruruland

    DRed: Well, Felton is one of the best players in basketball at the high pick and roll.He’s an amazing fit on the Knicks, and anyone who thinks differently is a dumbass.Especially people who mention that Felton isn’t an efficient scorer.

    He is one of the best players in the high pnr in the game.

    Think about the posts you’ve made the last few days, just for a second if you have the attention span.

    Last night, your argument was the Carmelo’s impact was basically negligible in this offense.

    Tonight, it’s that the Knicks have a very mediocre point guard (maybe worse?)

    So, can you please fucking explain to me how the Knicks have a top 3 efficient offense after tonight?

    Is it just Chandler?? It is it just Kidd and Chandler? Could you basically surround those two guys wth a bunch of decent players and be title conteders every year, because that’s essentially what it sounds like you’re saying.

  55. ruruland

    Juany8:
    Although JR can create in a pinch, that’s really not his strength. He can’t get to the rim off the dribble all that well, which means his shot ration is mostly shooting fadeaways, and he’s a solid, but not great, passer. He works as a nice utility player off the ball, but when he gets asked to actually create shots because there are no other good options, he will struggle. As some have said, that will be the biggest advantage of getting Amar’e back, suddenly the Knicks will be able to run an effective pick and roll the entire game instead of just when Chandler is in. Should help put JR off the ball a bit more, which will help his numbers.

    As far as shot creation, when you’re making tough 3?s against a crappy defense like Miami, you’re going to score a ton of points. When you’re not making those same tough 3?s against an elite defense? Not so much. That’s where the true value of a shot creator lies, did no one look at Felton and JR’s attempts to attack the defense and think they could live with some Melo post ups right about now? The Bulls shut down the pick and roll with Chandler, at that point the best options are really Felton, JR, and Sheed jacking up shots.

    There are a few teams with a strong enough guard and a mobile and long enough big to slow down the pnr without wing help.

    Chicago is one of those teams.

    I still think it’s been the best play in basketball this year, and much of that credit goes to Felton.

  56. ruruland

    Wish I didn’t have to make this post, it seems pretty superflous to me and should to many others.

    Prior to tonight, Knicks offensive numbers with Melo on floor and bench.

    Chandler: Melo on bench 61%, Melo on floor 73%

    Felton: Melo on bench 40, 41% (from 3), Melo on floor 44, 42%

    Novak: Melo on bench 35, 34%, Melo on floor 53, 53%

    Brewer: Melo on bench 30, 39%, Melo on floor 47, 39%

    Wallace: Melo on bench 37, 24%, Melo on floor 40, 33%

    The 3 guys who had comparable numbers with Melo on the bench, shot a combined 6-24 tonight, and those numbers wont be added to servers for few hours.

    Most players who’ve played with Melo have higher than career efficiency numbers.

  57. DRed

    A tale of two rurus:

    “No team can stop it!! Felton is an elite pnr point guard, and with Chandler’s screening, finishing ability and mobility — that is the key– and the shooters around him, there just isn’t anything teams can do.”

    “There are a few teams with a strong enough guard and a mobile and long enough big to slow down the pnr without wing help.
    Chicago is one of those teams.”

  58. Juany8

    3 years ago, when Chandler was on a Charlotte team with guys like Gerald Wallace and Raymond Felton, his TS% was around 65%, still good but nowhere near the monster levels he’s putting up now. When he joined the champion Mavs, with guys like Dirk and Jason Kidd, his TS% skyrocketed to 70%, and it’s been increasing every year. He had only been out of the first round with Chris Paul in his career, with the 2008 Hornets. He posted a TS% of 63%, which was a career high at that point.

    When Pau Gasol got traded from Memphis to the Lakers, he had 3 straight years that would have been career high years in Memphis, while he also had 3 straight years that would have been career lows in usage up to that point. He had never even won a playoff game in Memphis, and suddenly he was going to the Finals with a team that had Derek Fisher as it’s 4th best player (Bynum and Ariza were injured the first year)

    Kevin Garnett was a beast in his prime in Minnesota, yet every single year he’s been with the Celtics, years plagued with injuries, advancing age, and a regular season strategy emphasizing health a lot more than wins, he’s had good years in terms of efficiency relative to the rest of his career. There is no doubt in anyone’s mind that he’s not the same player he was in Minnesota, and most of his numbers show it. His TS%, however, has been higher than his career average every single year he’s been in Boston. He went from a playoff afterthought to an instant champion.

    All 3 of these guys made these noticeable improvements late in their careers, after they were already established players close to 30. They had already shown some signs of decline with their previous teams, and they had won 3 playoff series in their careers, as well as 0 playoff games between the 3 of them the year before joining the new teams, all of which instantly made the Finals. Hard to believe Kobe, Dirk, Melo and Pierce played no part in those changes

  59. ruruland

    DRed:
    A tale of two rurus:

    “No team can stop it!! Felton is an elite pnr point guard, and with Chandler’s screening, finishing ability and mobility — that is the key– and the shooters around him, there just isn’t anything teams can do.”

    “There are a few teams with a strong enough guard and a mobile and long enough big to slow down the pnr without wing help.
    Chicago is one of those teams.”

    Ohhh, got me!!

    Excuse my excitement in the afterglow of the Heat win, but I stand by that statement with the amended caveat.

    As you look across the league, Noah is really the one guy with the lateral movement to hedge on Felton and still get back to Chandler and contest him.

    I guess we’ll see if there’s another team out there that can stop that play without helping.

    It should be noted that Felton missed 5-6 shots in the paint that were not contested, if he makes 3 or 4 of them, the original statement stands factually, doesn’t it?

    I guess that makes up for all the ridiculous makes he had against Miami.

    What exactly is your point?

    You still haven’t explained how the Knicks have an elite offense despite their three highest usage players being run-of-the-mill, waiver wire caliber players.

    Kidd and Chandler, right?

  60. DRed

    Okay, so there’s only one team in the NBA that can stop our Melo-less offense. I stand corrected. Why do we need Melo back again?

    Kidd and Chandler certainly help, but I think the simple explanation is that we’re playing over our heads right now. We’re not shooting this well from 3 over the course of the year. On the other hand, we’ve already won all these games, so even if we’re not a true 60 win talent team, we still have a shot and winning 60. And who knows, if Shump’s shooting improvement down the stretch last year was for real, we might even get better.

  61. jon abbey

    Chicago was missing a ton of guys too tonight: Rose, Hamilton, Hinrich missed the second half, Gibson got tossed early. they’re a legit threat to us even making the conference finals, as is Boston, as is Brooklyn. not sure about Atlanta yet…

  62. ruruland

    DRed:
    Okay, so there’s only one team in the NBA that can stop our Melo-less offense.I stand corrected.Why do we need Melo back again?

    Kidd and Chandler certainly help, but I think the simple explanation is that we’re playing over our heads right now.We’re not shooting this well from 3 over the course of the year.On the other hand, we’ve already won all these games, so even if we’re not a true 60 win talent team, we still have a shot and winning 60.And who knows, if Shump’s shooting improvement down the stretch last year was for real, we might even get better.

    Felton, like every player in basketball, is not effective trying to go downhill every single play. Not that they even try.

    Besides, a team closing out on Novak or Smith is typically a different outcome when they close hard on Melo.

    It doesn’t quite matter if the Knicks are a 40% team from 3, though they can be close. It’s how well they shoot in comparison the league. Of course they can be a top 5 3pt shooting team, and when adjusted for attempts, maybe the most effective 3pt shooting team.

    Amar’e opens up another dimension to the offense.

    But yeah, this is a TRUE 60-win team, enjoyr yourself denying that at the end of the year.

  63. jon abbey

    Owen:
    Wow, James Harden. Thirty point half for Houston. On 15 true shots. That should help his percentages….

    depends on the percentages, the guy he was allegedly guarding (Mayo) scored 40 with a +/- of +20 where Harden’s efficient 39 (w/6 turnovers) left him with a -7 and a loss.

  64. Juany8

    jon abbey: depends on the percentages, the guy he was allegedly guarding (Mayo) scored 40 with a +/- of +20 where Harden’s efficient 39 (w/6 turnovers) left him with a -7 and a loss.

    You can tell the obvious bias stat guys have for defense by who they attack for their limitations and who they conveniently ignore.

    To set the record straight, while on the Knicks Melo has never had as bad a defensive game as James Harden has every other game this year. He SUCKS at fucking defense. Remember when everyone would get pissed at Melo for not consistently trying? Well Harden is that minus any actual defensive talent. Same with guys like Kevin Love, and Kenneth Faried, Dirk got blasted for years for his mediocre defense, but Love gets a pass for chasing rebounds more than he cares about good defensive position? Hell I remember John Hollinger saying the Knicks were going to be something like the 6th seed since they were likely to regress on defense despite adding a bunch of above average to elite defensive players.

    In the one thing they can’t measure, stat heads show how poorly they understand what’s actually happening. A great offensive player means very little if he allows his opponent to become a great offensive player every night. Defense is half the game and we’re calling the worst defenders in the league stars. It’s insulting that Melo’s been in that group for several years, teams NEVER attack him on offense unless they simply have someone like Durant leading the offense. Lazy or not, there’s something to be said when teams game plan around attacking Harden and Faried but not Kevin Martin (better defender than Harden) and Melo.

    On that note, Amar’e deserves every defensive criticism we’ve ever got, and I’m still not convinced that’s going to magically change

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