Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, September 23, 2014

2012-13 Game Thread: Knicks @ Raptors

If ever there was a time for a statement game, this would be it. The Knicks lost to the Raptors right before the break in one of the ugliest games of the season and then followed that up by being absolutely destroyed by the Indiana Pacers in the first game of the second half. If there’s still some fight left in these Knicks (and I certainly believe there to be), they will exact their revenge on the Raptors tonight. You have to believe that Melo will be ready for Landy Field’s defense tonight and will torch the former Knick.

But, I guess, the proof is in the proverbial pudding. So we shall see!

Let’s go Knicks!

240 comments on “2012-13 Game Thread: Knicks @ Raptors

  1. maxwell_3g

    im pulling all the stops.
    1) ewing sneakers? check
    2) bernard king throwback? check
    3) 6 pack of stone IPA? check

    lets go!!!!

  2. maxwell_3g

    SJK:
    Is anyone else having problems with league pass? It just doesn’t work for me

    i was earlier. grab your cable box. flip it upside down once or twice. belieive it or not, sometimes that works

  3. Owen

    Melo to Chandler, that’s how it’s supposed to happen….

    Can’t believe they didn’t call a hook on Melo on Fields there, but I will take it….

    Melo looks fired up…..

  4. SJK

    maxwell_3g: i was earlier.grab your cable box.flip it upside down once or twice. belieive it or not, sometimes that works

    Unfortunately I’m using wifi out of a college dorm

  5. maxwell_3g

    i know im in the minority here but i feel that woody should demand that shump takes at least 12-15 shots a game. he cant just wander through games without at least trying to contribute offensively. we have exactly four players who have the potential to create their own shot, shump being one of them (and that is counting JR and his step back “J”). we need more from shump

  6. maxwell_3g

    at this point, is it our players cocnentration or woody’s strategy of switching all the time that is resulting in all these open 3′s, game after game? we need to figure out what it is and adjust!!

  7. Thomas B.

    I decided to honor Ronnie Brewer by bending my arm at an awkward angle and pouring out a bit of my 40. The beer missed the ground by two feet.

  8. er

    Here goes breen on his Melo attack….derozan led with his knee what the fuck was Melo supposed to do? He was tryna avoid the foul but there was knee to body contact smh

  9. Frank O.

    Why are the Knicks such a bunch of bitches? They bitch about every. Damn. Thing.

    And then Smith becomes a street cone and Melo just watches as A guard penetrates for an easy layup and foul…
    This team loos heartless.
    And how many shots in a row must Lowry drain before the Knicks stop losing him?

  10. Owen

    What the hell was that foul? Who did they call it on? Derozan wasn’t really touched, not by Melo anyway….

  11. er

    Owen:
    Feels like we are down twenty….

    Yep it’s all Melos fault according to breen…he’s leaving the guards open for 3 ,oh wait

  12. flossy

    Thomas B.:
    I decided to honor Ronnie Brewer by bending my arm at an awkward angle and pouring out a bit of my 40. The beer missed the ground by two feet.

    Ha!

  13. ruruland

    Owen:

    Can’t believe they didn’t call a hook on Melo on Fields there, but I will take it….

    Melo looks fired up…..

    lmao

  14. cgreene

    maxwell_3g:
    at this point, is it our players cocnentration or woody’s strategy of switching all the time that is resulting in all these open 3?s, game after game?we need to figure out what it is and adjust!!

    it’s both. i think the switching strategy actually leads to a more laid back mindset because you don’t have to fight as hard to stay with your man.

  15. maxwell_3g

    flossy: No fucking thank you

    flossy. we all know you hate shump. you wanted to trade him for reddick. obviously, the knicks and the rest of the league disagreed with your enlightened stance, as the magic were able to obtain the “king’s ransom” of Tobias Harris for your savior, JJ reddick. shump is a knick, and we need him to produce. melo scoring 40 a game is not realistic and is not going to win us games

  16. maxwell_3g

    cgreene: it’s both.i think the switching strategy actually leads to a more laid back mindset because you don’t have to fight as hard to stay with your man.

    your prbably right. no accountability when you are not expected to stay with your man

  17. Owen

    “Owen:
    Can’t believe they didn’t call a hook on Melo on Fields there, but I will take it….
    Melo looks fired up…..
    lmao”

    You are the one talking about what a “bad whistle” he gets, but that’s an offensive foul on 95% of players in the league, no question about it, you just aren’t allowed to use your off arm that way unless you are a superstar……..

  18. Frank O.

    When did they become a low IQ team?
    I mean Stat saw that man set up three steps out and he still charged.

  19. Owen

    And on cue, Melo gets whistled for using his off arm again….

    Great pass from JR….

    Owen:
    “Owen:
    Can’t believe they didn’t call a hook on Melo on Fields there, but I will take it….
    Melo looks fired up…..
    lmao”

    You are the one talking about what a “bad whistle” he gets, but that’s an offensive foul on 95% of players in the league, no question about it, you just aren’t allowed to use your off arm that way unless you are a superstar……..

  20. Thomas B.

    At this point I think I’d like Kidd to call Knicks games and Breen to play the 2 because neither of them seems any good at their current occupation.

  21. cgreene

    Melo is so unlikeable sometimes. Have never had this kind of bipolar feeling about another Knick. You can just see the look on his face when he is about to do something dumb or not hustle on D. Hahn was right. In November Melo steps up and take Derozan on during that last play of the quarter.

  22. maxwell_3g

    i just dont get it. shump in for JR. How about shump in for KIdd, let ray be at point, shump play the 2, and JJ play the 3??? why does woody cotinue to insist on this 2 point lineup when kidd contibutes nothing but turnovers and bad defense???

  23. flossy

    maxwell_3g: flossy.we all know you hate shump.you wanted to trade him for reddick.obviously,the knicks and the rest of the league disagreed with your enlightened stance, as the magic were able to obtain the “king’s ransom” of Tobias Harris for your savior, JJ reddick.shump is a knick, and we need him to produce.melo scoring 40 a game is not realistic and is not going to win us games

    I don’t hate, I just wanted an upgrade. And I certainly don’t want Shumpert shooting 15 fucking times a game and neither does anyone else.

  24. Frank O.

    Monroe is making some pointed arguments about the way the Knicks have been playing. The point about how Melo is scoring now v earlier in the season was interesting.
    Also, getting on Chandler for complaining and not getting back on D.

  25. er

    cgreene:
    Melo is so unlikeable sometimes.Have never had this kind of bipolar feeling about another Knick.You can just see the look on his face when he is about to do something dumb or not hustle on D.Hahn was right.In November Melo steps up and take Derozan on during that last play of the quarter.

    Look at the replay and tell me what u wanted him to do seriously….once again jr smith wasn’t there huh?

  26. smokinjoe

    What happens if Sheed comes back and were still playing crappy defense..then there are no more excuses

  27. BigBlueAL

    Biggest difference between now and in November, Knicks up 4 and had 3 possessions in a row to extend lead, had 2 WIDE OPEN 3pters and missed them then turn it over leading to a Raptor basket and lead down to 2. Earlier this season the lead wouldve gotten to double digits in that stretch.

    Thankfully Kidd answered with a 3pter to extend lead back to 5 before a Raptors timeout.

  28. Owen

    Frankly, I can’t fault Breen. If I were the knicks announcer throughout the Dolan era and a Knick fan, I would be pretty ornery too….

  29. Frank O.

    ruruland:
    Breen and Monroe, truly insufferable.

    I see why folks don’t love Breen. But why is Monroe bothering u? Not argumentative. Just curious. Seems like to me he’s making observations that are on point.

  30. ruruland

    Frank O.:
    Monroe is making some pointed arguments about the way the Knicks have been playing. The point about how Melo is scoring now v earlier in the season was interesting.
    Also, getting on Chandler for complaining and not getting back on D.

    His spot-up attempts have actually gone up since early in the year. It’s just that everything begins to suck when a team loses, Melo is the logical scapegoat, at least for Breen and whoever gets sucked into his vortex of inane commentary.

  31. Owen

    And Kidd seems revitalized, maybe he got some pipe from JR?

    Is that the right way to use the expression?

  32. maxwell_3g

    flossy: I don’t hate, I just wanted an upgrade.And I certainly don’t want Shumpert shooting 15 fucking times a game and neither does anyone else.

    12-15. someone needs to shoot. im sick of the melo iso. we need everyone trying to score. it aint happing with kidd, novak, etc. amare is fools gold at this point. our secondary players have to be aggressive. but of course, since we’ve gone to the melo iso ball, our season has been working out so well.

  33. ruruland

    Frank O.: I see why folks don’t love Breen. But why is Monroe bothering u? Not argumentative. Just curious. Seems like to me he’s making observations that are on point.

    I actually think it’s more than anyone who has to do the color for Breen, either rejects his shtick, like the great JVG, or sort of has to go along with it.

    So, I don’t actually blame Monroe for it.

  34. BigBlueAL

    Ive only been watching since 7 mins left in this quarter and Ive already seen at least 3 wide open 3pters missed by the Knicks. Looks like D wasnt good in the 1st quarter but it has been very good since Ive been watching. Like I mentioned above if they would be making their open 3pters they would be up double digits right now.

  35. ruruland

    maxwell_3g: 12-15.someone needs to shoot.im sick of the melo iso.we need everyone trying to score. it aint happing with kidd, novak, etc.amare is fools gold at this point.our secondary players have to be aggressive.but of course, since we’ve gone to the melo iso ball, our season has been working out so well.

    Another false narrative that you’ve picked up from Breen. The Knicks have not isolated more with Melo or anyone else since they were winning.

  36. Owen

    Lol, i love it. Breen gives Melo some guff. And that means he is Ruru’s next target.

    I like Breen. Always have. Of course I have been listening to him since the late eighties on WFAN. So there is that….

  37. er

    ruruland: I actually think it’s more than anyone who has to do the color for Breen, either rejects his shtick, like the great JVG, or sort of has to go along with it.

    So, I don’t actually blame Monroe for it.

    But he only blasts the nix….he slobs any other big time player not name melo

  38. er

    Owen:
    Lol, i love it. Breen gives Melo some guff. And that means he is Ruru’s next target.

    I like Breen. Always have. Of course I have been listening to him since the late eighties on WFAN. So there is that….

    Lol I do think he does it to mess with ppl though so

  39. ruruland

    er: But he only blasts the nix….he slobs any other big time player not name melo

    Right, or anyone else on the Knicks, for that matter. Notice that when another player makes a bad play, it never becomes a referendum on his weaknesses, or is somehow extrapolated to represent (false) team issues.

    Most of the time Breen will only acknowledge one of these bad plays when a coach reacts to them.

  40. d-mar

    What bothers me is that if you were watching this game and didn’t know the teams’ records coming in, you would assume they were pretty much the same. The Knicks just don’t look better than other teams right now, early in the season they were just imposing their will and dominating, now everything is a struggle.

  41. jon abbey

    Thomas B.:
    At this point I think I’d like Kidd to call Knicks games and Breen to play the 2 because neither of them seems any good at their current occupation.

    Kidd is playing the best he has in weeks.

  42. ruruland

    Owen:
    Lol, i love it. Breen gives Melo some guff. And that means he is Ruru’s next target.

    I like Breen. Always have. Of course I have been listening to him since the late eighties on WFAN. So there is that….

    Dude, I’ve been talking about Breen since I’ve been here. I can’t stand him on national broadcasts either.

    As another master of false dichotomies and hair-brained analogies (you), how is that the best team in Nuggets history has lost (because they traded Melo) has lost three of four and given up 64 halftime points to Washington?

  43. Frank O.

    ruruland: I actually think it’s more than anyone who has to do the color for Breen, either rejects his shtick, like the great JVG, or sort of has to go along with it.

    So, I don’t actually blame Monroe for it.

    Breen does trip into blaming Melo for a lot. I get part of it: if you’re the star getting accolades when things go well, you’re going to catch shit when things go badly.
    But it’s an over simplification. The Knicks’ problems run much deeper than Melo.
    I’ve been a broken record on this today, but the guard play is pretty bad, generally. Shump is lost out there. Kidd and Felton are getting beat left and right. Prigs is no upgrade. It puts tremendous pressure on the bigs. Melo, Chandler, and Amare need to provide better help, but they can only do so much. Breen fixates on the failure of help D and fails to mention JR or Felton or Shump getting killed off the dribble. He bitches about Melo not helping JR, but says nothing about the matador D on the perimeter.

  44. maxwell_3g

    ruruland: Another false narrative that you’ve picked up from Breen. The Knicks have not isolated more with Melo or anyone else since they were winning.

    really??? wow. its me, and breen (who i never get on league pass) and the rest of the press covering the knicks. we must be all wrong and our eyes must all be lying. its amazing. begley (i believe) wrote a whole column on the lack of ball movement. he must be fooled too. and those nugget fans over the years. they must have been fooled too. we had success when we moved the ball. that has stopped. its not all melo’s fault. the other players need to be aggressive too. that is why im saying that shump, amare, felton, etc need to shoot (i would have added JR, but he doesnt really need encouragement)

  45. maxwell_3g

    jon abbey: Kidd is playing the best he has in weeks.

    i dont know. still stupid turnovers, etc. it just so happens that he made both of his 3′s so far

  46. er

    d-mar:
    What bothers me is that if you were watching this game and didn’t know the teams’ records coming in, you would assume they were pretty much the same. The Knicks just don’t look better than other teams right now, early in the season they were just imposing their will and dominating, now everything is a struggle.

    Well the raptors did start the season 1-13 or something atrocious like that…so they have been playing well. And the Knicks…..

  47. ruruland

    maxwell_3g: really???wow.its me, and breen (who i never get on league pass) and the rest of the press covering the knicks.we must be all wrong and our eyes must all be lying.its amazing.begley (i believe) wrote a whole column on the lack of ball movement.he must be fooled too.and those nugget fans over the years.they must have been fooled too. we had success when we moved the ball.that has stopped.its not all melo’s fault.the other players need to be aggressive too.that is why im saying that shump, amare, felton, etc need to shoot (i would have added JR, but he doesnt really need encouragement)

    Right, Breen, after all these years, doesn’t seem to have the slightest idea how ball movement is created.

    Team are rarely helping off pick and roll and are doubling less.

    the Knicks get some penetration, but defenses don’t help off of it.

    So, it’s really about Melo playing more efficient offense in isolation/post-up and Felton making more shots when team’s don’t help, so that defenses are forced to focus on helping and shading again.

    Melo deserves blame during this losing streak for playing really inefficient offense against what should be great scoring situations.

  48. maxwell_3g

    ruru. you seem to think that your eyes see the truth while others (mine and owen’s) see false narratives. maybe you can help me out. for weeks , you told us that amare was going to be dominant for us and bring the team to the next level. i havent seen him producing lately. he has 6 points and 2 rebounds at the half. pretty pedestrian, to my untrained eyes. what am i missing??

  49. Darrell H.

    I’ve been watching Breen since the mid 80s. He was always very good with Marist. My take on him is that he has been very disillusioned by the last decade+ of Knicks turmoil. I also think that since he picked up all the national stuff that he’s trying to fight the appearance that he is a “homer” like Clyde. But, man, I really get tired of his negative, bandwagon, narrative at times too!

  50. Will the Thrill

    Love how they are acting like we are playing soooo well right now just because we aren’t down at the half for once.

  51. maxwell_3g

    geez. i want darrell walker to speak at my funeral. talk about putting a positive spin on things!!

  52. Frank O.

    So Darrell, you are saying that because they didn’t give up 73, you’re happy?
    Still struggling to beat a bad team

  53. ruruland

    Frank O.: Still slow on D, but his shooting is better as is his passing

    Kidd does a lot of really good things on defense. He’ll never be more than average on the ball.

  54. smokinjoe

    Does anyone know why Novak comes in before Copeland?..he certainly cant play any worse D than Novak..I think we are are still remembering the discount double checking of last year..

  55. Frank O.

    ruruland: Right, Breen, after all these years, doesn’t seem to have the slightest idea how ball movement is created.

    Team are rarely helping off pick and roll and are doubling less.

    the Knicks get some penetration, but defenses don’t help off of it.

    So, it’s really about Melo playing more efficient offense in isolation/post-up and Felton making more shots when team’s don’t help, so that defenses are forced to focus on helping and shading again.

    Melo deserves blame during this losing streak for playing really inefficient offense against what should be great scoring situations.

    That last graph.
    You get points for saying that. Melo hasn’t really been the same player since probably when he started that silly fast. He’s had a couple good games, but mostly very inefficient.

  56. d-mar

    Breen really does suck, that’s the second time this game he’s said “bad shot” when a player has to force it up at the end of the 24 second clock

  57. Nick C.

    On Brern I found it ironic he said this re: Rudy Gay ” with Gay on the team Derozan no longer has to be guarded by the other teams best wing defender. Having a big scorer helps his teammates.” I never hear this about Melo.

  58. maxwell_3g

    horrible layup/floater by shunp there, but he has to do it. melo with a good pass out the double…got to attack

  59. smokinjoe

    Frank O.:
    So Darrell, you are saying that because they didn’t give up 73, you’re happy?
    Still struggling to beat a bad team

    Bad team that beat indy twice on the road..and same one that just crushed us

  60. Frank O.

    ruruland: Kidd does a lot of really good things on defense. He’ll never be more than average on the ball.

    And he’s 40. His on ball D is more a problem when your other guards also are playing shit on ball D.
    He defends passing lanes well.

  61. ruruland

    Frank O.: That last graph.
    You get points for saying that. Melo hasn’t really been the same player since probably when he started that silly fast. He’s had a couple good games, but mostly very inefficient.

    He’s had pretty much a terrible stretch since the first 27 games of the year and that’s one of the big reasons for the .500 play.

  62. Darrell H.

    Frank O.: So Darrell, you are saying that because they didn’t give up 73, you’re happy?Still struggling to beat a bad team

    Hell no. I’m not happy at all. I was telling my wife how close I am to giving up on the Knicks.

    Breen has every right to bash the Knicks defense and the bad shots. But, he does seem to cherry pick his commentary at times. I really think he dislikes Carmelo. Carmelo frequently plays bad D but point me at a current Knicks rotation player that is playing good D. I see effort from some of them but it seems like alot of selfish defense to me! I can almost see guys muttering “it ain’t my man”. I hate that shit.

  63. ruruland

    maxwell_3g:
    horrible layup/floater by shunp there, but he has to do it.melo with a good pass out the double…got to attack

    He wanted the alley-oop. So indecisive. He’ll get there. The first step and acceleration look great.

  64. er

    maxwell_3g:
    nba refs are the worst.how in the hell is that a charge.these are the best refs in the world???

    Lol Landry is flopping his way to an Oscar just for this game hahahaha

  65. maxwell_3g

    ruruland: He’s had pretty much a terrible stretch since the first 27 games of the year and that’s one of the big reasons for the .500 play.

    i dont even reall blame melo too much, at least offensively. i wish he played better d and gave more efofrt, but the offense is more on the coaches and the other players than him. its easy to get on him for shooting too much or not moving the ball, but others need to step up and make decisive, agressive offensive moves. i just dont see that, excoet from ray falton on occasion. if no one steps up, what is melo supposed to do other than chuck away?

  66. maxwell_3g

    ruruland: He wanted the alley-oop. So indecisive. He’ll get there. The first step and acceleration look great.

    i agree man. maybe thats our common ground. i havent given up on him yet. he needs to stay at it. it will come around

  67. Frank O.

    Darrell H.: Hell no.I’m not happy at all.I was telling my wife how close I am to giving up on the Knicks.

    Breen has every right to bash the Knicks defense and the bad shots.But, he does seem to cherry pick his commentary at times.I really think he dislikes Carmelo.Carmelo frequently plays bad D but point me at a current Knicks rotation player that is playing good D.I see effort from some of them but it seems like alot of selfish defense to me!I can almost see guys muttering “it ain’t my man”.I hate that shit.

    Sorry, Darrell. I was talking to Walker at half time. He was lauding the fact that the Knicks had played some D. Lol

  68. Will the Thrill

    I don’t even mind Shumpert sucking on offense because he’s always sucked on offense. His defense is what is worrying me.

  69. Darrell H.

    Frank O.: Sorry, Darrell. I was talking to Walker at half time. He was lauding the fact that the Knicks had played some D. Lol

    Oh well. Darrell Walker is delusional :)

  70. Will the Thrill

    I wonder what the percentage is of the opposing team scoring when Amar’e switches onto a guard or small forward on the perimeter.

  71. maxwell_3g

    flossy:
    Also the switching is just out of control.

    i hear you on that. its crazy. i dont remeber woodson’s hawks doing this. when will he end this strategy???

  72. Frank O.

    First analysis I’ve heard about Stat’s footwork that wasn’t positive. Monroe’s explanation about how block work is more about pace…interesting.

  73. smokinjoe

    Say what you want about Stat..I never see him complain about a foul..I wish the knicks would follow his example rather than Melos complaining about every single call that doesnt go his way..attitude starts with the star and right now Melos attitude is ‘entitled’ and woe is me when things dont go my way

  74. flossy

    maxwell_3g: i hear you on that.its crazy.i dont remeber woodson’s hawks doing this.when will he end this strategy???

    The Hawks were notorious for switching. The difference is that Horford, Josh Smith and Joe Johnson could switch assignments and not bleed points.

  75. maxwell_3g

    has the deadline really past?? is it too late to trade melo and amar for a load of expirings, just to start all over?

  76. er

    smokinjoe:
    Say what you want about Stat..I never see him complain about a foul..I wish the knicks would follow his example rather than Melos complaining about every single call that doesnt go his way..attitude starts with the star and right now Melos attitude is ‘entitled’ and woe is me when things dont go my way

    Lol yea right

  77. smokinjoe

    Wow that was an ugly offensive posession..melo into triple team kicks out wild pass to prigs..who dribbles while Stat tries to initiate a pnr and we end up with a stat fadeaway..ugh

  78. Will the Thrill

    I think 5 would be doable. For some reason I can’t see Atlanta passing us. But 5 wouldn’t be bad unless we got Chicago.

    d-mar:
    I still think we can hang on to the 6th seed

  79. maxwell_3g

    flossy: The Hawks were notorious for switching.The difference is that Horford, Josh Smith and Joe Johnson could switch assignments and not bleed points.

    i know you dont like shump, but i honeslty think that this switching is killing shump’s value as a defender. just watching him, he plays good d on the ball, but if eveyone is going to switch, youcan just wait til novak is covering you

  80. maxwell_3g

    if the raptors dont all get suspended forflopping after this game, then what is the point fo the NBA anti-flopping rules??? this is ridiculous. lucas, fields, and landry are the primary culprits and the refs have bought it more often than not

  81. maxwell_3g

    i swear, when there is a loose ball, rebound to be gathered, challenge to be matched, im not sure our best player isnt raymond felton. at least we dont have to wonder if he cares. he just owned amir johnson on the blass through shear desire

  82. Kikuchiyo

    Mike Breen makes ANOTHER mistake about how many fouls a Knick has. He NEVER missed calls like this earlier in the season. But, you know, his body language is bad, and he’s complaining about mistakes rather than working on his delivery.

  83. maxwell_3g

    f’n switching gets us with chadler guarding lowry on a huge possession!!!!! when does the madness stop?? this is on woodson at this point, right??

  84. mcliff05

    This is scary. Nearly our best effort energy wise and we can’t beat the raptors. Felt like we really needed this one.

  85. AnonymousODG

    I am so sick and tired of Jason Kidd getting extended minutes over Stat and Shump when he does absolute shit on the court for offense. Woodson said they were 7-5 with him in the starting lineup about four losses ago.

    Get him the f#ck out.

  86. BigBlueAL

    Now we have to hope the Nets dont finish their comeback at home tonight just to remain alone in 1st in the freaking division. This is getting pretty bad.

  87. maxwell_3g

    AnonymousODG:
    I am so sick and tired of Jason Kidd getting extended minutes over Stat and Shump when he does absolute shit on the court for offense.Woodson said they were 7-5 with him in the starting lineup about four losses ago.

    Get him the f#ck out.

    agreed completely. this is what happens when you sign an old ass team. it was all good just a week (or month) ago

  88. jon abbey

    it is ridiculous that Kidd plays down the stretch when he contributes absolutely nothing on offense and looks afraid to shoot when he is wide open.

    anyway, someone needs to outlaw anyone associated with this team talking about winning a title. like I said yesterday, they’d be lucky to beat Toronto in a playoff series right now, let alone an actual playoff team.

  89. smokinjoe

    mcliff05:
    This is scary. Nearly our best effort energy wise and we can’t beat the raptors. Felt like we really needed this one.

    Knicks fans and players have to stop acting like we are supposed to just show up and beat teams like this..cant say raptors arent better in a tight game with gay

  90. Jake S.

    I’m not sure how giving Shumpert 25 minutes as opposed to 20 minutes changes anything. He’s been just as putrid as Kidd. If you want to bump up any guard’s minutes, it should probably be Prigioni.

  91. Will the Thrill

    The run of the Knicks after he took over where people were praising him so much had to do more with proving D’antoni wrong more than Woodson implementing anything. We got off to a hot start in the beginning of the year, now we aren’t shooting so well, and Woodson can’t adjust.

  92. BigBlueAL

    Jake S.:
    I’m not sure how giving Shumpert 25 minutes as opposed to 20 minutes changes anything. He’s been just as putrid as Kidd. If you want to bump up any guard’s minutes, it should probably be Prigioni.

    Or just play a normal front court at all times and have Felton and JR get most of the minutes in the backcourt. At this point once KMart is here and Sheed/Camby return this might be the best bet going forward. The less minutes Kidd and Shump play the better at this point.

  93. Will the Thrill

    We have a huge run coming up though, remember

    jon abbey:
    on the bright side, we only need to go 28-2 from here to get to ruru’s 60 wins. :)

  94. maxwell_3g

    ok knicks fans. the nuggets, after getting “fleeced” by us, have essentiually the same record as us at this point, except momentum in on their side. tell me when its time to revisit the winners an losers of the melo trade

  95. mcliff05

    smokinjoe: Knicks fans and players have to stop acting like we are supposed to just show up and beat teams like this..cant say raptors arent better in a tight game with gay

    But if you believe that the Knicks are a legit #2 in the East they need to prove it against team like this. Raptors with Gay or Wizards with Wall, we need to beat those teams, especially after being embarassed the last 3.

  96. maxwell_3g

    Jake S.:
    I’m not sure how giving Shumpert 25 minutes as opposed to 20 minutes changes anything. He’s been just as putrid as Kidd. If you want to bump up any guard’s minutes, it should probably be Prigioni.

    because he is a) young, b) coming off of an f’n acl surgery. he could get better between now and the end of the year. this just in….kidd aint getting better

  97. maxwell_3g

    maxwell_3g: because he is a) young, b) coming off of an f’n acl surgery.he could get better between now and the end of the year.this just in….kidd aint getting better

    and he got 15 minutes, not 20

  98. Jake S.

    BigBlueAL: Or just play a normal front court at all times and have Felton and JR get most of the minutes in the backcourt.At this point once KMart is here and Sheed/Camby return this might be the best bet going forward.The less minutes Kidd and Shump play the better at this point.

    Right.

  99. d-mar

    If we weren’t in the middle of this shitty slump, this loss wouldn’t be such a big deal. Raps are 7-1 in their last 8 and playing very well, and it’s not like we rolled over. Just really needed this game to get things back on track and it didn’t happen.

  100. smokinjoe

    Will the Thrill:
    The run of the Knicks after he took over where people were praising him so much had to do more with proving D’antoni wrong more than Woodson implementing anything. We got off to a hot start in the beginning of the year,now we aren’t shooting so well, and Woodson can’t adjust.

    I dont know what it has to do with but this game is about adjustments..you are right about Woodson just stubbornly clinging to doing things the same old way..if anyone watched the MSG postgame..Wally S had a very simple analysis..its about matchups..and the constant switching on D keep putting us at disadvantage on every play we switch on

  101. BigBlueAL

    Am I the only person thinking maybe Amar’e shouldve been in the game instead of Chandler that possession that lead to Chandler’s FT’s?? Wouldve rather had him at the line than Chandler even though he hadnt shot FT’s well tonight either. Also if Chandler hadnt been fouled what the hell was he gonna do with the ball that far out from the basket, at least Amar’e mightve been able to get a shot for himself.

  102. ruruland

    jon abbey: on the bright side, we only need to go 28-2 from here to get to ruru’s 60 wins. :)

    Haha, remember, 60 wins was best case scenario, all things go right. 53-58 was the range I predicted.

    I still think they’ll get to 53ish wins.

  103. Jake S.

    maxwell_3g: because he is a) young, b) coming off of an f’n acl surgery.he could get better between now and the end of the year.this just in….kidd aint getting better

    No, I’m all for cutting back Kidd’s minutes, I’m just not sure I’d allot them to Shumpert. They can’t afford to let him play his way through this, and I suspect he won’t be whole until next year.

  104. AnonymousODG

    Jake S.:
    I’m not sure how giving Shumpert 25 minutes as opposed to 20 minutes changes anything. He’s been just as putrid as Kidd. If you want to bump up any guard’s minutes, it should probably be Prigioni.

    #1 Shump doesn’t pass up three wide open shots (a result of great ball movement) and give the ball up to a bewildered teammate who is completely covered (rendering the previous good offensive rhythm irrelevant). #2 Shump getting anything less than 19 minutes is indefensible if he’s going to be an integral part of this team’s future. #3 Kidd getting more than 30 minutes is indefensible on all conceivable levels (4 out of last 5 games he’s played 30+ minutes).

    I get that Kidd’s defense is arguably better than Shump’s right now but it is, in absolutely no way, so much more superior to justify this blatant disparity in game minutes.

    Oh… and Kidd happens to be old as f#ck and his back is actin up. But y’know, whatever. Seems like Woodson is just trying to go for a hat trick with the whole he-should-be-a-starter-but-we’re-havin-him-come-off-the-bench schtick but it’s clearly not working like it is for Smith or Stat.

  105. ruruland

    jon abbey: it is ridiculous that Kidd plays down the stretch when he contributes absolutely nothing on offense and looks afraid to shoot when he is wide open. anyway, someone needs to outlaw anyone associated with this team talking about winning a title. like I said yesterday, they’d be lucky to beat Toronto in a playoff series right now, let alone an actual playoff team.

    The shots he passed up were killers.

  106. jon abbey

    Shumpert has been showing occasional signs of life in recent games, but it’s hard for him to get into a flow when he only plays 15 minutes.

  107. Frank

    d-mar:
    If we weren’t in the middle of this shitty slump, this loss wouldn’t be such a big deal. Raps are 7-1 in their last 8 and playing very well, and it’s not like we rolled over. Just really needed this game to get things back on track and it didn’t happen.

    Totally agree. Toronto is playing really well right now. In fact they beat Indiana in Indiana before the ASG. I thought the effort was great tonight. The biggest plays of the game were Felton missing that wide open 3 and the hot potato between Kidd and Jr. If we hit one out of two of those wide open 3s we probably win that game.

    Infant I thing the defense was pretty good also. Maybe it just felt like that but Toronto hit SO MANY contested long 2s tonight.

    At risk of sounding like ruruland I think this was a step forward. Obviously it’d be good to have the win but I didn’t think the team played badly tonight. Lost to a hot, hotshooting team who got a ridiculously friendly whistle. That 3 rd quarter whistle was totally ridiculous with the offensive fouls and touch fouls.

  108. Jake S.

    AnonymousODG: #1 Shump doesn’t pass up three wide open shots (a result of great ball movement) and give the ball up to a bewildered teammate who is completely covered (rendering the previous good offensive rhythm irrelevant). #2 Shump getting anything less than 19 minutes is indefensible if he’s going to be an integral part of this team’s future.#3 Kidd getting more than 30 minutes is indefensible on all conceivable levels (4 out of last 5 games he’s played 30+ minutes).

    I get that Kidd’s defense is arguably better than Shump’s right now but it is, in absolutely no way, so much more superior to justify this blatant disparity in game minutes.

    Oh… and Kidd happens to be old as f#ck and his back is actin up.But y’know, whatever.Seems like Woodson is just trying to go for a hat trick with the whole he-should-be-a-starter-but-we’re-havin-him-come-off-the-bench schtick but it’s clearly not working like it is for Smith or Stat.

    I’m not advocating for Kidd, but you can’t say Shumpert looks any less tentative. He is completely lost right now, has no idea what he wants to do with the ball.

  109. BigBlueAL

    ruruland: Haha, remember, 60 wins was best case scenario, all things go right. 53-58 was the range I predicted.

    I still think they’ll get to 53ish wins.

    Right now I would be beyond thrilled if they finish with 50 wins. To get to 53 they have to finish 21-9. That aint happening especially with the schedule next month.

    Whatever man at this point I dont care if its 50 or 48, just finish no lower than 3rd to give us hope for a decent run in the playoffs.

  110. Jake S.

    jon abbey:
    Shumpert has been showing occasional signs of life in recent games, but it’s hard for him to get into a flow when he only plays 15 minutes.

    He’s 5-26 over the last six games and has been averaging a shade under 20 minutes. Where are these signs of life of which you speak?

    I love Shumpert as much as the next guy, but it’s probably going to take a year.

  111. BigBlueAL

    Frank: Totally agree. Toronto is playing really well right now. In fact they beat Indiana in Indiana before the ASG. I thought the effort was great tonight. The biggest plays of the game were Felton missing that wide open 3 and the hot potato between Kidd and Jr. If we hit one out of two of those wide open 3s we probably win that game.

    Infant I thing the defense was pretty good also. Maybe it just felt like that but Toronto hit SO MANY contested long 2s tonight.

    At risk of sounding like ruruland I think this was a step forward. Obviously it’d be good to have the win but I didn’t think the team played badly tonight. Lost to a hot, hotshooting team who got a ridiculously friendly whistle. That 3 rd quarter whistle was totally ridiculous with the offensive fouls and touch fouls.

    I go back to the 2nd quarter, Knicks missed so many wide open 3pters late in that quarter that couldve given them a double digit lead at the half instead of just a 3 pt lead. But yeah that possession with JR and Kidd not wanting to shoot was beyond puzzling.

  112. ruruland

    Frank: Totally agree. Toronto is playing really well right now. In fact they beat Indiana in Indiana before the ASG. I thought the effort was great tonight. The biggest plays of the game were Felton missing that wide open 3 and the hot potato between Kidd and Jr. If we hit one out of two of those wide open 3s we probably win that game. Infant I thing the defense was pretty good also. Maybe it just felt like that but Toronto hit SO MANY contested long 2s tonight. At risk of sounding like ruruland I think this was a step forward. Obviously it’d be good to have the win but I didn’t think the team played badly tonight. Lost to a hot, hotshooting team who got a ridiculously friendly whistle. That 3 rd quarter whistle was totally ridiculous with the offensive fouls and touch fouls.

    I thought the whistle was decent. The Raptors are a good team (now), playing extremely well, against a Knicks team struggling with confidence etc.

    There are stretches like this, the Knicks will get hot again. They just aren’t dominant enough to avoid stretches like this, as it may have appeared earlier in the year.

  113. AnonymousODG

    Jake S.: I’m not advocating for Kidd, but you can’t say Shumpert looks any less tentative. He is completely lost right now, has no idea what he wants to do with the ball.

    Shump’s not regularly passing up multiple wide open shots to a defended teammate. And that single fact alone makes him a far superior contributor to offense than Kidd. It’s completely indefensible.

    You can argue who’s better or worse for the next four facts: #1 They both meander with the ball. #2 They both rarely penetrate anymore. #3 They both rarely create good screens. #4 They both rarely make great assists anymore like they used to.

    But Kidd’s getting more minutes and getting progressively worse on all of those fronts with seemingly no bottom and Shump can only get better with more consistent playing time on the court. At this point, it’s getting so bad that Kidd’s indirectly dumping his offensive ineffectiveness onto Felton’s shoulders and it’s wrecking Felton’s subpar game.

  114. Owen

    “ok knicks fans. the nuggets, after getting “fleeced” by us, have essentiually the same record as us at this point, except momentum in on their side. tell me when its time to revisit the winners an losers of the melo trade”

    The Nuggets are pretty good. Missed the second half and some discussion of them apparently. The rockets are also pretty damn good. Both teams are better than the Knicks right now, much younger, and have more cap flexibiility.

    Realistically, the Knicks are just a good team and not a great one. We played like championship contenders for a month but that dream faded, unless Rasheed is actually a huge difference maker waiting in the wings. Honestly, we are lucky to be in the Eastern conference because if we were in the West we probably wouldn’t be in the playoffs.

    I sympathize with anyone who wishes we could start over and just start running the franchise right. But the truth is, Jim Dolan runs this organization. It isn’t happening.

    Man, tough night to be a Knicks fan. Getting some flashbacks to some feelings from 08…..

  115. Thomas B.

    jon abbey:
    Shumpert has been showing occasional signs of life in recent games, but it’s hard for him to get into a flow when he only plays 15 minutes.

    Signs of Bibby’s life, which is to say none.

  116. BigBlueAL

    I will say this, I think the Knicks and Nuggets are really in the same boat. What they are now is what they will be for the next couple of years. The Nuggets if Im not mistaken have basically used up all their future cap space in signing their own players long term (Gallo/Chandler/McGee/Lawson) plus have Miller for another couple of years still and could lose Iggy this off-season and will eventually have to pay big to keep Faried. Dunno really how high a ceiling their current nucleus has. At least the Knicks are in the East lol.

    The Rockets on the other hand look like the team who could really become scary good since they have cap space this off-season.

  117. Thomas B.

    ruruland: Haha, remember, 60 wins was best case scenario, all things go right. 53-58 was the range I predicted.

    I still think they’ll get to 53ish wins.

    45 wins.

  118. Frank O.

    My kid took my ipad for a time, but watched the ret of this nightmare.
    Kidd passing on those threes just destroyed continuity.
    Ray chucking up a horrible three. Really poor play, poor decisions.
    Chandler committing the foul on Gay was pretty thoughtless.
    They are completely without confidence.

  119. njasdjdh

    BigBlueAL:
    I will say this, I think the Knicks and Nuggets are really in the same boat.What they are now is what they will be for the next couple of years.The Nuggets if Im not mistaken have basically used up all their future cap space in signing their own players long term (Gallo/Chandler/McGee/Lawson) plus have Miller for another couple of years still and could lose Iggy this off-season and will eventually have to pay big to keep Faried.Dunno really how high a ceiling their current nucleus has.At least the Knicks are in the East lol.

    The Rockets on the other hand look like the team who could really become scary good since they have cap space this off-season.

    Leaving out the age of the respective squads and how that affects their potential to develop and exceed expectations is misleading.

  120. nicos

    njasdjdh: Leaving out the age of the respective squads and how that affects their potential to develop and exceed expectations is misleading.

    Other than maybe Faried developing a real jumpshot (possible) or McGee getting coached into not being a complete knucklehead (not likely) I’m not sure what improvements you’re going to see from that roster- all those other guys have been in the league long enough that they pretty much are who they’re going to be.

  121. BigBlueAL

    njasdjdh: Leaving out the age of the respective squads and how that affects their potential to develop and exceed expectations is misleading.

    How much better is Gallo, Chandler, Lawson, McGee gonna get?? They arent on their rookie contracts anymore, they are who they are right now. Faried is different since he is young enough to maybe develop a better offensive game.

    You really think this Nuggets team can make a run at a championship?? I cant see them ever getting past the 2nd round in the West. Im not saying they arent very good because they are plus they are a fun team to watch. But comparing them to the Knicks in terms of championship potential to me they arent any different with the exception that the Knicks playing in the much weaker conference could make a run to their conference finals in the next couple of seasons where as I would be shocked if the Nuggets ever do just because the Thunder/Spurs/Clippers and even the Grizz are too good. Never mind the Lakers or Rockets looking at the next couple of seasons.

    The Nuggets have had a better record since the Melo trade (saw that stat on Twitter today) but in terms of who won the trade to me its been pretty much a wash. Give the Nuggets credit though because instead of just letting him go as a FA they made a trade and got some future picks and a good young player in Gallo (plus Felton who lead to Andre Miller). But its not like the Nuggets screwed the Knicks over with the trade and made themselves into an instant title contender.

  122. njasdjdh

    My point is less about the Nuggets guys having the potential to explode into something bigger/better and more about the fact that odds are they will incrementally improve since most are on the right side of their prime compared to the Knicks where most of the roster is…not young and this likely the best year we will see them have.

  123. nicos

    The only positive I can take out of tonight is that aside from Shump the guard play was better- those threes Kidd turned down were killers but otherwise he looked better than he has in a month. Same with JR- he was probably the Knicks best player tonight. And while Woodson is still stubbornly sticking with a starting lineup that isn’t working, at least it like he’s adjusted the second unit rotations so that Amar’e is never paired with Novak as the power forward. This next stretch is huge with Philly, a struggling Warriors team, and Washington coming up they’ve got an opportunity to get this turned around before that nationally televised game against the Heat.

  124. BigBlueAL

    nicos:
    The only positive I can take out of tonight is that aside from Shump the guard play was better- those threes Kidd turned down were killers but otherwise he looked better than he has in a month.Same with JR- he was probably the Knicks best player tonight.And while Woodson is still stubbornly sticking with a starting lineup that isn’t working, at least it like he’s adjusted the second unit rotations so that Amar’e is never paired with Novak as the power forward.This next stretch is huge with Philly, a struggling Warriors team, and Washington coming up they’ve got an opportunity to get this turned around before that nationally televised game against the Heat.

    Then they follow up the Heat game with games at Cleveland and Detroit before the absolutely brutal part of their schedule. Home games vs OKC and Utah followed by that 5 game west coast trip.

    Thankfully the schedule does get easier after that trip thru the end of the season.

  125. bobneptune

    nicos: Other than maybe Faried developing a real jumpshot (possible) or McGee getting coached into not being a complete knucklehead (not likely) I’m not sure what improvements you’re going to see from that roster- all those other guys have been in the league long enough that they pretty much are who they’re going to be.

    Seriously? Their starting 5 are 23, 23, 24, 25 and 29. Of their 10 rotation players only iggy and miller are over 26.

    They are also going to have the benefit of being practically intact for the next 4-5 seasons. that playing together has to make them better in the long run.

    Also, they have our 2014 pick and a flip of 2016 if they want which might be a big deal when kidd is 43, camby is 42 and chandler, amar’e and melo are entering their 14th, 13th and 12th season.

    The knicks and their fans are essentially members of the WAAF party!

    Somewhere in Indiana, Donnie Walsh is laughing his ass off.

  126. ruruland

    njasdjdh:
    My point is less about the Nuggets guys having the potential to explode into something bigger/better and more about the fact that odds are they will incrementally improve since most are on the right side of their prime compared to the Knicks where most of the roster is…not young and this likely the best year we will see them have.

    Which players do you expect to incrementally improve? I think Javele and Faried might be able to tap into something more.

    But this current core has also been extremely fortunate with injuries and is largely athleticism reliant.

    But the Nuggets are locked into their core longer than the Knicks, with escalating salaries. Since they aren’t a lux cap team, it’s unlikely they can add an impact player over what they have, especially if Iguodola is re-signed.

    Yes, Denver is better positioned to make a move for a top level guy, but it’s hard to see who will be moving in the next few years given that most of the best players are on good teams.

    Denver looks a lot better two years from now, but after that it’s a clean slate for the Knicks.

    We’ve seen it’s relatively easy to build an average supporting cast with small deals, imagine what Chandler and Melo could do with a true max player (healthy and productive) beside them in a couple years?

  127. er

    bobneptune: Seriously? Their starting 5 are 23, 23, 24, 25 and 29. Of their 10 rotation players only iggy and miller are over 26.

    They are also going to have the benefit of being practically intact for the next 4-5 seasons. that playing together has to make them better in the long run.

    Also, they have our 2014 pick and a flip of 2016 if they want which might be a big deal when kidd is 43, camby is 42 and chandler, amar’e and melo are entering their 14th, 13th and 12th season.

    The knicks and their fans are essentially members of the WAAF party!

    Somewhere in Indiana, Donnie Walsh is laughing his ass off.

    Lol haven’t seen u in a while….I love nugget trolls lol

  128. ruruland

    bobneptune: Seriously? Their starting 5 are 23, 23, 24, 25 and 29. Of their 10 rotation players only iggy and miller are over 26.

    They are also going to have the benefit of being practically intact for the next 4-5 seasons. that playing together has to make them better in the long run.

    Also, they have our 2014 pick and a flip of 2016 if they want which might be a big deal when kidd is 43, camby is 42 and chandler, amar’e and melo are entering their 14th, 13th and 12th season.

    The knicks and their fans are essentially members of the WAAF party!

    Somewhere in Indiana, Donnie Walsh is laughing his ass off.

    Who do you see improving?

  129. er

    All you guys with hard ons for the nuggets are funny man. So they are a great team? The Knicks an nuggets are about the same which is what their records are.

    I thought this stupid trade talk from a whole TWO FUCKING YEARS AGO was over but I was wrong. Gallo is an average player who plays above avg from time to time. What else from the Knicks do they have? Faried has nothing to do with melo and niether do iggy and mcgeee so pahleeez spare me the bitching and moaning. Man knick fans always sound so freakin butt hurt Mind you most of you nuggets fanatics love Tyson, who wouldn’t have been here if not for the trade.

  130. Brian Cronin

    For the past few years, there has been consistent trolling both ways, depending on how the Knicks (and Nuggets and now Rockets) are doing and yes, it is all quite silly. But no one really has any sort of moral high ground in this discussion.

  131. dogrufus

    Well, good thing there wasn’t some sort of better guard we could have acquired or retained in the offseason that could have helped us from having the WORST guard rotation in the entire league.

    Good thing we let that guy go to save money so we could sign Jason fucking Kidd to a multi-year deal. His falling off a cliff wasn’t the most predictable outcome in the goddamn world or anything.

    We’re 3 on 5 on offense, and 3 on 5 on defense. A mediocre team.

    If ruru is now predicting 53 wins, I expect 43.

  132. er

    Brian Cronin:
    For the past few years, there has been consistent trolling both ways, depending on how the Knicks (and Nuggets and now Rockets) are doing and yes, it is all quite silly. But no one really has any sort of moral high ground in this discussion.

    I respectfully disagree , the nuggets supporters created the Melo trolls. Honestly I always loved the Knicks and kinda rooted for Melos nuggs becuase I’m a Cuse fan so I like both teams, but the bitching is absurd. Woody has more to do with the Knicks now than gallo

  133. er

    dogrufus:
    Well, good thing there wasn’t some sort of better guard we could have acquired or retained in the offseason that could have helped us from having the WORST guard rotation in the entire league.

    Good thing we let that guy go to save money so we could sign Jason fucking Kidd to a multi-year deal.His falling off a cliff wasn’t the most predictable outcome in the goddamn world or anything.

    We’re 3 on 5 on offense, and 3 on 5 on defense.A mediocre team.

    If ruru is now predicting 53 wins, I expect 43.

    Lol it’s sad but you are correct…. I wasn’t really a LiN fan and I have egg on my face….. Ah we’ll the joy of being a knick fan

  134. jon abbey

    Jake S.: He’s 5-26 over the last six games and has been averaging a shade under 20 minutes. Where are these signs of life of which you speak?

    I love Shumpert as much as the next guy, but it’s probably going to take a year.

    there’s a lot to the game besides shooting, and he had nowhere to go but up after his initial few weeks. the improvement has come more on D where he seems to be getting right into people a bit more often, he still looks tentative and a mess on offense, although it doesn’t help that he plays a lot alongside Kidd who the D can just ignore currently.

  135. bobneptune

    ruruland: Who do you see improving?

    I see the knicks 2014 pick and especially the knicks 2016 pick as being big assets.

    Koufos has logged only 1900 minutes coming into this season. why shouldn’t he improve at 23?

    There’s no reason faried can’t develop a 12 foot shot and learn to play d with a little more savvy over time.

    gallo is having his best season at 24 (it seems like he should be older) posting career bests in scoring, rebounding and ws/48

    lawson is in his second season as the starter at point, unpossible for him to get better @ 25

    Mc Gee’s ws/48 improve every season and if he ever grows up just a touch, the sky is the limit.

    Iggy and miller aren’t getting any better nor is chandler.

    But that core is going to be around for years AND in 2014-15, they will be way under the cap @46M while the knicks will still be stymied @76M

    When the next big player becomes available, they are in a great position to make a 3 for 1 deal.

  136. bobneptune

    BigBlueAL:

    The Nuggets have had a better record since the Melo trade (saw that stat on Twitter today) but in terms of who won the trade to me its been pretty much a wash.

    Sort of a false dichotomy. My only criticism of the melo trade was and still is, there never should have been a melo trade. ever.

    I know something about addiction and dolan is a classic impetuous recovering addict. the franchise will never be truly successful with him at the helm.

  137. BigBlueAL

    Here is my thing about the Nuggets and Knicks which is what I was trying to say earlier. I totally agree that the Nuggets have a very good team who should remain very good for the next few years. But I just dont see how they can breakthrough and even get past the 2nd round of the playoffs in that time frame. Now as a fan I would have no problem whatsoever rooting for a perennial 50 win team who could/should win a playoff series every year, plus they are a super fun team to watch. Sure beats what we have been watching for over the past decade.

    BUT the whole thing about the Melo trade and some of their subsequent moves was people complaining because all they have done is put together a decent/good team that in the 3 year window they currently have wont be able to win a championship. If they win 50 games this season and next and win a couple of playoff series but dont go to the NBA Finals most of the people who hated the trade and letting Lin go will feel vindicated. But if the Nuggets do the same thing they get credit.

  138. jon abbey

    bobneptune: I know something about addiction and dolan is a classic impetuous recovering addict. the franchise will never be truly successful with him at the helm.

    yep. I revived the FB Occupy MSG thread a few days ago, first time since the summer. the rot starts at the top, as it always has.

  139. BigBlueAL

    bobneptune: Sort of a false dichotomy. My only criticism of the melo trade was and still is, there never should have been a melo trade. ever.

    I know something about addiction and dolan is a classic impetuous recovering addict. the franchise will never be truly successful with him at the helm.

    Hey man I hate Dolan as much as anybody so you are preaching to the choir there lol.

    About not wanting a trade for Melo, thats an easy thing to say in hindsight. Sure they dont do the trade, then what?? They somehow trade for CP3 correct?? If not then what?? Especially with Amar’e getting hurt and not being the player he was in his first season here what would the Knicks look like now??

    Like I said a few days ago once LeBron signed with the Heat there was no easy/quick way to build a true title contender. I certainly am not 100% thrilled with all the moves that have been made by the Knicks in the past couple of years but Im not exactly upset or pissed at the team they have put together right now.

  140. Owen

    Re 231 Duncan retires or gets hurt. Once that happens more things are possible. Like upsetting the Thunder in the CF. beating both those teams would be tough.

    I think the Nuggets could get a lot better on defense. And they have the trade pieces and cap space to make moves.

    They also have a pretty savvy front office and ownership group hi have a pretty strong track record of making good decisions.

    That’s really the major difference,

    I also think there is a lot of room for a bunch of the Nuggets to improve. Their whole front court in particular.on the defensive end.

    Re 233 – they could have not signed amare and just bottomed out. But yeah, that’s old news at this point….

  141. bobneptune

    BigBlueAL: Hey man I hate Dolan as much as anybody so you are preaching to the choir there lol.

    About not wanting a trade for Melo, thats an easy thing to say in hindsight.Sure they dont do the trade, then what??

    Not hindsight, many were saying just that at the time. the knicks were 2 over .500 at the time of the trade after being paralyzed by rumors for the previous month. they could have won the one playoff game they won in the 2 following years by doing nothing and letting curry, azibuke, the pharoah and felton expire over the next 2 seasons which would have opened a max slot the first year and a near max slot the second year.

    cp3 was traded for an already sore eric gordon, a 10th pick in the draft and 2 rolls of toilet paper.

    dwight howard was traded. deron williams was traded. there could have been a lot of options, hell, maybe melo might have signed as a FA, but even if he went to ni there were lots of options.

    When dolan let billups be forced into the trade (with the other crap) they were then forced to play with an old sore kneed point guard or a defensive specialist center (chandler) and no point guard (that didn’t work out too well) and no chance to amnesty a’mare later in his contract which everyone knew was likely to need to happen.

    I could go on, but the result of the melo trade was pairing a one way offensive machine with a one way defensive specialist center and a sore kneed amare with virtually nothing else. Oh… I forgot… Ray Felton is your #2 scoring option for the next 4 years!

  142. max fisher-cohen

    BigBlueAL:
    Here is my thing about the Nuggets and Knicks which is what I was trying to say earlier.I totally agree that the Nuggets have a very good team who should remain very good for the next few years.But I just dont see how they can breakthrough and even get past the 2nd round of the playoffs in that time frame.

    It’s about possibility. Before the Melo trade, the Knicks were longs hots to sign or trade for Paul or Howard. After, they had no shot and were stuck with two consolation prizes whose games didn’t complement each other. That doesn’t make you a little sad/angry?

    Denver has younger guys mostly on reasonable deals & a bunch of draft picks. They can make cap space in a flash with nearly anyone on their roster being desirable. NY has $35m/year locked into Camby, Kidd, Novak and STAT. Which team is more likely to able to get a game changing player? Both teams likely won’t win titles any time soon, but certainly Denver has a better shot.

    .500-ish teams are blood simple to build in the NBA; it only becomes challenging when you do so while maintaining a young roster & cap flexibility, and really without a top 5 player, that’s the only thing to reach for. The cap & rookie scale are designed to lure dumb management into trading youth and picks for vets in the same way a dumb teenager might be tempted to sell the Apple stock his grandpa bought him so he can buy the entire Members Only catalog. That dude looked cool for a few years, and maybe even had sex a couple times, but now his jackets are in the landfill whereas his $1k in apple stock would be worth $10 million.

    It’s not about vindication. I just want a team that has hope, that isn’t trending downwards from a not-so-impressive peak. I don’t want the Knicks to make me sad anymore.

  143. jon abbey

    max fisher-cohen: It’s about possibility. Before the Melo trade, the Knicks were longs hots to sign or trade for Paul or Howard. After, they had no shot and were stuck with two consolation prizes whose games didn’t complement each other. That doesn’t make you a little sad/angry?

    Howard isn’t looking like much of a prize these days, and it’s pretty easy to make an argument that no transaction has mattered at all (as far as a potential championship) since LeBron chose Miami.

  144. BigBlueAL

    Gotta admit, as big a Knicks fan as I am I certainly am not as tortured by them as many of you guys seem to be. I can probably thank the Yankees for that lol.

  145. jon abbey

    yeah, in the end it’s just sports, the most entertaining reality TV. you can only get so upset if you’re not one of the people playing or making the front office decisions, or at least that’s how I feel.

  146. BigBlueAL

    jon abbey:
    yeah, in the end it’s just sports, the most entertaining reality TV. you can only get so upset if you’re not one of the people playing or making the front office decisions, or at least that’s how I feel.

    Most of my friends and family think Im nuts and way too obsessed with the Knicks/Yankees and I often tell them you have no idea how normal a fan I am compared to many people on the internet lol.

    I often go crazy during games and I literally plan my days most of the time around Knicks/Yankees games. I love watching them play more than anything else on TV. For me it is by far my favorite form of entertainment. But in the end I love them so much that I cant fathom hating them or not wanting to root for them anymore. Thats why I was a bit surprised by some of the reactions over the summer about Knick fans wanting to quit being fans of the team over a team decision they hated.

    I almost view the Knicks/Yankees as my family, you may hate things they do and get angry at them but in the end they are your family and you “love” them no matter what. I dont ever regret watching them when they lose because Im angry or whatever and feel like it was a waste of time.

    Shit now the more that I look at it maybe I am a bit too obsessed with them lol.

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