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Saturday, August 30, 2014

2012-13 Game Thread: Jeremy Lin v. New York, UPDATE: Melo’s out

So, no Carmelo Anthony, but..to get you ready for Jeremy’s return, here’s Jim Cavan over at the Mothership:

1. Fact or Fiction: Jeremy Lin’s career peaked in New York.

Jim Cavan, KnickerBlogger: Fiction. Hanging 38 on the Lakers might seem an NBA lifetime ago, but let’s not forget that Jeremy Lin is 24 years old. Assuming he can still improve and become a productive player on a playoff-caliber team, there should be ample opportunity for Lin to show that those halcyon Garden days merely sparked, rather than defined, his unique story.

And here’s me chatting with the gang at TheKnicksWall.com

Once again, no matter the result, emotions are sure to be running high. I implore y’all, be kind to one another.

97 comments on “2012-13 Game Thread: Jeremy Lin v. New York, UPDATE: Melo’s out

  1. ruruland

    Good for Melo to sit and get himself right. He has a tendency to sometimes rush through injuries and prolong their effects.

    I have a pretty good feeling junior is going to have his best game of the season tonight.

  2. ruruland

    Gee whiz, what you know:

    http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/8756203/deron-williams-brooklyn-nets-says-not-same-trade-utah-jazz

    “And that system (in Utah) was a great system for my style of play. I’m a system player, and I loved Coach (Jerry) Sloan’s system. I loved the offense there. We could’ve been a really good team. We just weren’t that good defensively as a group.”

    “I grew up in high school, my coach wasn’t one of those guys that would let us just throw out the ball and let us play,” Williams said. “We were a system team. We had staple plays that we relied on. We were good at execution. In college (at Illinois), we ran the motion offense. A lot of cutting, a lot passing, a lot of screening, a lot of extra passes. I’m used to just movement. So I’m still trying to adjust.”

  3. dogrufus

    Calling this a loss tonight with no Melo and Harden getting 15+ FTA.

    Is there a more boring “star” to watch?

  4. Juany8

    One thing I will always defend and love about Melo: He never would have passed the ball to a teammate with 2 seconds left to avoid taking a shot that would lower his percentages. Rose does the same thing with end of the quarter 3′s, he takes every single one and he doesn’t give a shit about what it does to his shooting percentage if she’s shooting a bunch of half court shots.

  5. Nick C.

    Do you think not having Melo going off hurts the defense. Presumably teams FG% is higher after defensive rebounds.

  6. Juany8

    Nick C.:
    Do you think not having Melo going off hurts the defense. Presumably teams FG% is higher after defensive rebounds.

    It’s certainly harder to run in transition, and I’m sure that having the guards spacing the floor instead of penetrating helps them get back a little easier too. Offense and defense are certainly not independent of each other on a team level.

  7. BigBlueAL

    Knicks shooting tonight might actually be worse than their defense so far. Just keep it under double digits at half-time and hopefully in the 2nd half their shooting touch returns as does their defensive intensity. Rockets getting tired legs would be nice too since they are playing the 2nd of a back-to-back and 3rd game in 4 days.

  8. maxwell_3g

    for the second half, can we just let harden shoot j’s? i know hes a great shooter, ut i would prefer that to the layup line

  9. JK47

    Knick guards can’t contain dribble penetration. Lin just blew by Kidd like he was a traffic cone and Chandler was forced to pick up his third foul.

    Sorry guys, but Lin is embarrassing the Knicks in this one.

  10. BigBlueAL

    custer:
    shitty third foul calls on jr and tyson

    The 3rd foul on Chandler was total crap. Kidd had blocked the shot clean from behind and Chandler barely touched Lin after he had lost the ball already.

  11. Glew

    What is everyone’s concern level on Carmelo’s injury? Anyone have any insight into why he hasn’t received an MRI or x ray?

  12. cgreene

    Glew:
    What is everyone’s concern level on Carmelo’s injury? Anyone have any insight into why he hasn’t received an MRI or x ray?

    One would assume bc he doesn’t need that.

  13. BigBlueAL

    I didnt miss this feeling of being embarrassed as a Knicks fan. At least I can look at the standings after the game and feel good about them again though lol.

  14. BigBlueAL

    I blame this embarrassment on Tracy Morgan taking over the Knicks twitter feed for tonight’s game.

  15. ruruland

    JK47: Knick guards can’t contain dribble penetration. Lin just blew by Kidd like he was a traffic cone and Chandler was forced to pick up his third foul.Sorry guys, but Lin is embarrassing the Knicks in this one.

    Quick guards have killed the Knicks all year. hello Shumpert.

  16. ruruland

    Also, this would have been an ideal game to have Marcus Camby. He is the perfect guy to play clever penetrating guards who live in the paint. Defending those kind of forays is what he does really well on defense.

  17. JK47

    ruruland: Is that supposed to mean something?

    Yeah, I mean shouldn’t the Knicks be totally awesome tonight? I mean, 3/5 of the starting lineup are WoW superstars Chandler, Kidd and Brewer, and that hack Carmelo Anthony isn’t out there to muck things up.

  18. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    JK47: Yeah, I mean shouldn’t the Knicks be totally awesome tonight?I mean, 3/5 of the starting lineup are WoW superstars Chandler, Kidd and Brewer, and that hack Carmelo Anthony isn’t out there to muck things up.

    fallacey of big sampel size

  19. maxwell_3g

    i think we have one of the best 11th (soon to be 13th) men in the league in Cope. thats something positive

  20. BigBlueAL

    Ruru just wait til this abomination of a game is over later tonight and link a page to the NBA standings in response to whatever glee THCJ will take from this game.

  21. maxwell_3g

    the good thing about having this much depth is that our subs fight toothe and nail for playing time, which results in our guys playing hard all the time. cope and prigs and even novak and jr are atleast out there competing still

  22. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    BigBlueAL:
    Ruru just wait til this abomination of a game is over later tonight and link a page to the NBA standings in response to whatever glee THCJ will take from this game.

    ya mabey u’r rite but, it is happy to see harden? he playing very good tonight?

  23. BigBlueAL

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: ya mabey u’r rite but, it is happy to see harden? he playing very good tonight?

    I cant argue with you there, I think Harden is great and disagree big time with the people here who try to minimize how good he is.

  24. JK47

    Harden looks pretty good when he’s being guarded by a 50-year old with the mobility of chocolate pudding.

  25. BigBlueAL

    Well at least Stu Jackson’s 1989-90 Knicks team is still in the record books for best home start to a season.

  26. Bison

    The depressing thing about tonight is that if Lin and Felton had switched places, Lin playing for the Knicks and Felton for the Rockets, we would probably have won.

  27. ruruland

    Bison: The depressing thing about tonight is that if Lin and Felton had switched places, Lin playing for the Knicks and Felton for the Rockets, we would probably have won.

    And the Knicks would have a worse record going into the game.

  28. Bison

    ruruland: And the Knicks would have a worse record going into the game.

    Unlikely. Last year when Lin was running the point for Woodson, we were briefly by far the best team in the NBA. And this was before we got Kidd and Sheed.

    Lin has been playing badly in Houston because McHale has not allowed him to play his natural PG position. Normally this year, you would see Lin crossing midcourt, instantly dumping the ball to Harden, and moving to the corner for the rest of the possession. Under the McFail, Lin is not allowed to make plays; he’s forced to use the weakest part of his game, i.e. to be a spot up shooting guard. This game was unusual, probably because Lin just said “fuck it, McHale, I’ll play it my way for once”. And you see the results.

    I fully expect the coach to force Lin to be a corner camper again next game — which was exactly what happened the game after Lin dropped 38/7 on the Spurs. Apparently that wasn’t good enough for McFail.

    If we still had Lin, I doubt Woodson would be so stupid. Our record might even be better than it is.

  29. ruruland

    Chandler is at career low in shot block %, and he doesn’t even try to protect the rim much of the time. I’m not sure if he’s trying to conserve his energy for offense, but there’s a big need for Marcus Camby on this team until Ty starts playing on the defensive end.

  30. Z-man

    Bison: Unlikely.Last year when Lin was running the point for Woodson, we were briefly by far the best team in the NBA.And this was before we got Kidd and Sheed.

    Lin has been playing badly in Houston because McHale has not allowed him to play his natural PG position.Normally this year, you would see Lin crossing midcourt, instantly dumping the ball to Harden, and moving to the corner for the rest of the possession.Under the McFail, Lin is not allowed to make plays; he’s forced to use the weakest part of his game, i.e. to be a spot up shooting guard.This game was unusual, probably because Lin just said “fuck it, McHale, I’ll play it my way for once”. And you see the results.

    I fully expect the coach to force Lin to be a corner camper again next game — which was exactly what happened the game after Lin dropped 38/7 on the Spurs.Apparently that wasn’t good enough for McFail.

    If we still had Lin, I doubt Woodson would be so stupid.Our record might even be better than it is.

    Where were you yesterday when Lin was stinkin’ up the joint in Toronto?

  31. Static

    If we still had Lin, I doubt Woodson would be so stupid.Our record might even be better than it is.

    It’s an interesting question but I don’t think so. Lin has to much of a scorer’s mentality, and his turnovers are far to high.

  32. Static

    I didn’t see the game.

    How did Copeland’s points come? Did he create them, just hit open looks or what?

  33. d-mar

    I guess it’s easy to say that the Rockets just have our number, but give me Shump to throw at Lin and Harden, and who exactly on Houston is guarding STAT? Oh, and we were missing some guy named Anthony tonight.

    Anyone who makes a big deal out of this game, and also tries to turn it into a Lin vs. Felton referendum, is a complete moron.

  34. ruruland

    We’ve been over this topic before, quite a few times.

    James Harden is the best pick and roll player in the NBA (Melo is the second most efficient pnr scorer, Harden is a better pnr passer).

    Having Harden in the game does not preclude Lin from running side pnr, driving against his man in isolation (where he was best last year) or driving against a rotation.

    In fact, he’s done all of those things with Harden in the game. The problem is that much of the time Lin struggles and becomes quite passive with the ball.

    He seems to get a lot more aggressive with the ball in his hands when Harden leaves the game.

    It’s hard to be a good nba point guard when you have to dominate the ball and can’t shoot.

    I would expect Lin to start playing more assertively as the season progresses with Harden in the game, I’m not so sure if/when he can improve his jump shooting, nor am I sure that his finishing is something he can consistently count on.

    he is a good playmaker, and along with Felton, one of the better penetrating guards in the league. That always helps an offense.

    Would I want Lin on my team? Yes, especially if he was taking Prig’s minutes. I always felt the team should have re-signed Lin because of his upside as a third scorer and playmaker, even if he wasn’t as good of a fit as Felton.

    But it was a business decision that actually was quite prudent financially.

    Good for Lin tonight. could be a jump-start for them. They’e a very dangerous offensive team and will have a chance to sneak into a great western conference.

  35. ruruland

    d-mar: I guess it’s easy to say that the Rockets just have our number, but give me Shump to throw at Lin and Harden, and who exactly on Houston is guarding STAT? Oh, and we were missing some guy named Anthony tonight.Anyone who makes a big deal out of this game, and also tries to turn it into a Lin vs. Felton referendum, is a complete moron.

    Knicks isolation defense is worst in league. Shumpert was one of the premier isolation defenders last year.

    Knicks are fifth worst team in paint fg% allowed. Yeah, Camby and Chandler deciding to play.

  36. Bison

    The posting limit means I’ll have to trim off lots of your long message.

    ruruland:
    We’ve been over this topic before, quite a few times.

    James Harden is the best pick and roll player in the NBA (Melo is the second most efficient pnr scorer, Harden is a better pnr passer).

    Did you notice that Harden scored 28 points tonight on 50% shooting? An offense run by Lin doesn’t hurt the Beard.

    Having Harden in the game does not preclude Lin from running side pnr, driving against his man in isolation (where he was best last year) or driving against a rotation.

    Tell that to the Houston coaches. Normally Lin gets no pnr plays — none.

    In fact, he’s done all of those things with Harden in the game.

    As I said, tonight was very unusual.

    The problem is that much of the time Lin struggles and becomes quite passive with the ball.

    It’s hard to be aggressive when you are ordered to camp in the corner and get no pnr plays. That by the way was exactly what occurred against the Raptors yesterday. You would think McFail would realize that Lin could blow by Calderon at will, but that was obviously not the game plan. Lin was forced to dump to ball to Harden, Parsons, even Morris — do anything except make Calderon play defense. Because of this brilliant game plan, the Rockets lost.

    I would expect Lin to start playing more assertively as the season progresses with Harden in the game, I’m not so sure if/when he can improve his jump shooting, nor am I sure that his finishing is something he can consistently count on.

    I doubt Lin will be allowed to be more aggressive. Next game it’s back to the salt mines for him.

    Lin was involved in 38 points tonight (22 scored, 8 assists); Felton, 22. The difference is more than the losing margin. If the two guards had…

  37. Bison

    Damn, another cut off. Here’s the last sentence again:

    If the two guards had been interchanged, we would have won.

  38. Bison

    BigBlueAL:
    If the Knicks had Lin instead of Felton they would be better than 18-6??Damn.

    Quite possibly, BigBlueAl. Remember, we were 6-1 with Lin and Woodson and had the best point differential in the NBA during that period (even if you ignore the 40+ point blowout against the tanking Blazers).

    Also, we have Kidd and Sheed this year. Our record could possibly have been better than 18-6 with Lin.

  39. Eric Chen

    Lin has to much of a scorer’s mentality, and his turnovers are far to high.

    Static: It’s an interesting question but I don’t think so. Lin has to much of a scorer’s mentality, and his turnovers are far to high.

    Not this season. Lin’s ball-handling, passing, and judgement while handling the ball have improved. He’s not looking to score as much, either, but it’s hard to say whether that’s by his own choice or the system.

  40. jon abbey

    Shumpert is going to take Prigioni’s minutes plus some of Kidd’s, for a helluva four man guard rotation.

    hopefully we have more players next game, Melo, Sheed, almost anyone would help.

    quote of the night from Clyde, I think in the second or third quarter after Chandler blocked a ball that didn’t count anyway because they called an offensive foul just before: “finally, Chandler shows some tenacity.”

  41. jon abbey

    the Lin fanboys are back tonight. glad we’re done with Houston for the season now, for multiple reasons.

  42. Bison

    That’s right, Jon, run away and hide.

    The next time we have a Feltdown, you’ll remember what Lin’s team did to us this season — twice.

    By the way, I’m still a Knicks fan. It’s just that with Lin in Houston I’m watching twice as many basketball games as usual. That is why I hardly post here anymore: I have a lot less time now.

  43. nicos

    I posted this on the game recap but will post it here as well because it seems the Lin/Felton discussion is still going on.

    For this team Felton>>>Lin. Why? He’s better PNR player- much better. Last year Lin averaged .8 ppp on the pnr (that includes turning it over a whopping 25.9% of the time). This year Felton is averaging .79 ppp on the pnr and turning it over 12.9% of the time. Well, you could say, even with the turnovers Lin is still averaging a bit more in terms of ppp so he’s better. But, lets look at how the roll man is doing- Chandler’s been far better with Felton. He’s the number one roll man in the league, averaging 1.44 ppp and turning it over just 3.5% of the time. Last year he averaged 1.18 ppp and turned it over 11.2% of the time as the roll man. Now that includes the rest of the season where he was running it with other guys but considering his TS% was .664 with Lin starting (actually worse than he averaged without him) and his turnovers pretty much the same- 17.2 with, 17.1 without- I don’t think you can say those numbers are misleading. Yes, Kidd is helping and Chandler’s numbers were probably hurt by the wrist injury last year but those numbers aren’t even remotely close. Also, Felton’s low turnover numbers have a real benefit that doesn’t show up in the ppp numbers- he gets the ball up to the rim more often and as we’ve seen Chandler has gotten a ton of putbacks on those shots. You can’t get a putback off of a turnover. Given how often the Knick run pnr with Felton/Chandler those numbers outweigh any vague intangibles you might claim on Lin’s behalf.

  44. jon abbey

    Bison:
    That’s right, Jon, run away and hide.

    The next time we have a Feltdown, you’ll remember what Lin’s team did to us this season — twice.

    you haven’t been here very long if you think I’m running away, and the second sentence is just idiotic, but whatever gets you through the night.

    the matchup issue with HOU seems to be Asik maybe more than the guards, add him to the short list of guys who give Chandler big problems on the offensive end (NY’s offensive end, I mean).

  45. jon abbey

    and actually…

    Bison:

    The next time we have a Feltdown, you’ll remember what Lin’s team did to us this season — twice.

    even if I did remember this, my next thought would be about how Lin let Jose Calderon light him up the day before for a triple double (including 14 assists), and then be thankful that kind of thing doesn’t happen to NY much anymore.

  46. timbuk2

    jon abbey:
    and actually…

    even if I did remember this, my next thought would be about how Lin let Jose Calderon light him up the day before for a triple double (including 14 assists), and then be thankful that kind of thing doesn’t happen to NY much anymore.

    And Lin lit up Calderon in the previous 2 meetings. Whereas we’re 0-2 against the Rockets.

    Anyway, time will tell.

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