Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Friday, December 19, 2014

252 comments on “2011 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Thunder

  1. Nick C.

    Hope the time off has let them rest up and not seem so gassed. I expect a win. Does that make me delusional?

  2. John Kenney

    While we may not win, we can expect it to be nail-biter at the very least- we went into OT with them last year if I remember correctly.
    As a pregame diversion- what do you guys think of the story on ESPN that if we don’t get Carmelo we’d go after Iguodala? I don’t know how I feel- I have always liked Iggy more than most, but he doesn’t really shoot well from 3…

  3. GHenman

    John Kenney: While we may not win, we can expect it to be nail-biter at the very least- we went into OT with them last year if I remember correctly.As a pregame diversion- what do you guys think of the story on ESPN that if we don’t get Carmelo we’d go after Iguodala? I don’t know how I feel- I have always liked Iggy more than most, but he doesn’t really shoot well from 3…  (Quote)

    He’s shooting 37% from three so far this year. Even if he only shot 32% I think he’s a better fit because he’s cheaper and plays better D.

  4. latke

    I like Iguodala. Hopefully philly goes on a bit of a losing streak and they really commit to the rebuild. Turner played much much better what iggy was hurt, so I think they’d be really open to salary cap relief and a young player/pick.

  5. BigBlueAL

    Knicks with 9 assists in the 1st quarter, Thunder with only 3 assists yet still lead at the end of the quarter.

  6. Brian Cronin

    You have to wait, like, nine seconds before they ever invoke the five seconds out of bound rule.

  7. BigBlueAL

    Combine horrible officiating with horrible Knicks defense and you have the Thunder approaching 50 points with half the 2nd quarter left.

  8. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin: How can you not love Turiaf?He’s one of, like, three Knicks my wife actually recognizes.  

    Turiaf single-handedly bringing the Knicks back in the game!! lol

    A healthy Turiaf and TD would do wonders for the bench.

  9. BigBlueAL

    2 unfortunately pretty big baskets by Westbrook to end the half and stem an amazing Knicks run just before half-time.

  10. Peter87

    “Beardy” :-D love it!
    Good half; hope we can keep up the energy.
    I like the fact that the players, talking about the last few practices, almost all emphasized that they were ‘tightening up the D’, and in fact we saw some nice defensive sequences near the end of the half.

  11. Jimmy C

    I’ve missed the last few games, so this might be old news, but Gallo’s haircut looks like it’s making him twice as fast. Why couldn’t Clyde be here to give us “Gallo, aerodynamic and emphatic!”

  12. jaylamerique

    as weird as it sounds, i think jamal crawford with his improved ts% and efg would be the perfect bench player for the knicks. I still think a good scoring bench player is the one thing this team is missing

  13. BigBlueAL

    Nick C.: Despite that buzzer shot, nice way to close out the half. Up 8 and if I heard correctly 20 assists.  

    20 assists on 25 made FG’s. Thunder on the other hand with just 9 assists on 21 made FG’s.

    Knicks finally decided to play some good D last 5 minutes of the half.

  14. Frank O.

    Again, beautiful game to watch.

    The knicks needs some bench help because when the are rested, they’re tough. But when tired, they’re rough…

  15. BigBlueAL

    Knicks have a chance to put this game away early, Thunder played last night and might not have the energy for big 4th quarter comeback.

  16. latke

    any possibility that the fact that it looks more likely ‘Melo is going to NJ has caused the knicks to loosen up a bit?

  17. Jimmy C

    latke: any possibility that the fact that it looks more likely ‘Melo is going to NJ has caused the knicks to loosen up a bit?  

    Definitely.

  18. Nick C.

    ltmurray: Alright Knicks! I stepped out when it was tied in the 1st — how’d they build up this lead?  

    Turiaf came in, defense stepped up, and they knocked down shots. A real team effort. Or something like that. Aldo not many turnovers.

    ltmurray: Alright Knicks! I stepped out when it was tied in the 1st — how’d they build up this lead?  

  19. ltmurray

    Thanks Nick — OKC hasn’t looked like a 20-9 team in this half, but the Knicks have had a lot more rest lately.

    As for “Melo to NJ” taking some pressure of the Knicks, I sure hope that’s the case.

  20. Frank O.

    ltmurray: Thanks Nick — OKC hasn’t looked like a 20-9 team in this half, but the Knicks have had a lot more rest lately.As for “Melo to NJ” taking some pressure of the Knicks, I sure hope that’s the case.  

    but knicks had the busiest sked this past month

  21. Jimmy C

    Yeah they need to stop playing Christmas music during timeouts at the Garden. Turiaf just looks confused.

  22. Nick C.

    Yeah Extra E has been having a nice game. It might not have looked like it’s at times but a good quarter as the lead was stretched from 8 to 12

  23. ltmurray

    Is it just me or is Toney D having a pretty good night? Only 3 assists, but the offense hasn’t felt dead when he’s running the point like it usually does.

  24. rama

    ltmurray: Is it just me or is Toney D having a pretty good night? Only 3 assists, but the offense hasn’t felt dead when he’s running the point like it usually does.  (Quote)

    In general the bench has been really strong. TD struggled a bit when he first came in, but once Turiaf settled everyone down, they’ve been solid. A healthy Turiaf makes a really big difference.

  25. rama

    Tripuka had a good comment: they don’t have to be a great defense, they just have to be great in spurts.

    And I’m tempted to do the Landry Fields schtick here, but I’ll try to restrain myself.

  26. rama

    Another smart play from Fields. We really, really, can’t trade that dude. Draws a foul, makes a block, hits a three, and boards and boards and boards.

    I mean, we are BLOWING OUT a very, very good team. We need to add a part, not trade away what we’ve got.

  27. Jimmy C

    ess-dog: We can NOT trade Fields!!!  

    Is it insane to make the Bill Bradley comparison here? Obviously Bradley was much more heralded in and coming out of college, but they both put up great numbers at the college level, and have somewhat similar games: smart, efficient, unselfish and constantly aware. I might be grasping at generational straws, but, like ess-dog said, why would you ever trade this guy?

  28. ltmurray

    I’m sure this is old news, but 2 of the first 3 clips of the new NBA Big Head commercial is Gallinari getting dunked on. Still love you Gallo!

  29. Jimmy C

    Frank O.: AR hasn’t been standing out in practices, according to the press  

    I’m sure he reads all the trade rumors and sees that he and Curry are pretty much the two constants in any conceivable move. Either that, or his attitude and effort are legitimately piss poor. Or some combination of the two.

  30. GHenman

    Jimmy C: Is it insane to make the Bill Bradley comparison here? Obviously Bradley was much more heralded in and coming out of college, but they both put up great numbers at the college level, and have somewhat similar games: smart, efficient, unselfish and constantly aware. I might be grasping at generational straws, but, like ess-dog said, why would you ever trade this guy?  (Quote)

    Excellent comparison.

  31. ltmurray

    Randolph was definitely looking to pass on that possession. Don’t think I’ve seen that approach from him yet.

  32. Doug

    ess-dog: Walker sucks.Same ‘ol Moz.  

    Did you see when AR tried to hit him with a pass while he was making a cut in the paint? Too fast. Hit him in the hands, turnover.

  33. misterma

    Not to be a Debbie Downer, but wow that was one depressing garbage time. Not one of those guys earned a single extra minute.

    Great win though.

    AQUAAA

  34. Frank O.

    misterma: Not to be a Debbie Downer, but wow that was one depressing garbage time. Not one of those guys earned a single extra minute.Great win though.AQUAAA  

    I had the same thought. the scrubs played like scrubs. Still nice to give the starters a blow

  35. rama

    Basically, the only team that’s really spanked us this year was the Heat. We were right there with the Cs, and of course the Cavs loss was just the classic hangover game. Since the team started playing well, they’ve shown they can match anyone.

  36. GHenman

    rama: Basically, the only team that’s really spanked us this year was the Heat. We were right there with the Cs, and of course the Cavs loss was just the classic hangover game. Since the team started playing well, they’ve shown they can match anyone.  (Quote)

    How about the Bucks?

  37. alsep73

    misterma: Not to be a Debbie Downer, but wow that was one depressing garbage time. Not one of those guys earned a single extra minute.Great win though.AQUAAA  

    In fairness, Mozgov did catch a pass for a dunk. A major step in the right direction for him.

  38. Droidz1979

    Frank O.: I had the same thought. the scrubs played like scrubs. Still nice to give the starters a blow  (Quote)

    I think Shawne Williams and Douglas was still on that Knick garbage time team and they sure made some contribution earlier.. I guess it shows you how valuable “beardy’s” playmaking and D is important especially when healthy. I agree, we need a real back-up PG and a decent big. Great win by the Knicks!

  39. rama

    GHenman: How about the Bucks?  (Quote)

    I said, since the team started playing well, GHenman. Yeah, in the very beginning of the season, before D’Antoni even really knew who to play, they had a few bad games. A few early harbingers as well…but basically they didn’t become a good team until 15 games in or so.

  40. mr front row

    It’s really good to see the team get a good win, versus a good team…i’ll take a win anyway i can get it, but this right here was solid. a few tweaks here n there n i see good things..gonna be an easy night of rest…

  41. Garson

    love that felton played 33 min… although still think douglass cant run the offense. the rest was needed.

  42. Jimmy C

    Great win. I hope I’m not the only one who takes from this game the conviction that making a lopsided trade for Melo is NOT what this team needs. I know the gut instinct is to look at Boston, Miami, and to a lesser extent LA and say that you need at least two — and preferably three — superstars to win a championship in today’s NBA. But the chief difference between all three of those teams and these Knicks is this: those teams had very little other than their respective superstars, whereas our Knicks have a very legitimate supporting cast around a superstar who, while not top echelon, is carrying himself in a city and a tradition that is fast MAKING HIM top echelon. We need more pieces, absolutely, but as has already been discussed ad nauseum, and as Mike via Hahn outlined in great detail, those pieces ought to fill NEEDS, and not WANTS.

    If Melo is somehow available at the end of the year and we can get him for spare parts, great. If not, let’s focus on getting guys who can round out the roster and put us on a sustainable path for the long term. My prediction is that someone, be it New Jersey, Dallas, Orlando, or someone else, will end up overpaying or flat-out renting Melo for the rest of the season. If that’s the case, we could very well find ourselves involved tangentially or indirectly, and will be in a better position to fill some of those needs — backup PG and legit 5 being chief among them.

    Obviously Christmas Day could very well end up tempering our excitement, but this last 15 game-or-so stretch has shown how far we’ve come, how good we can be, and yes, how far we have left to go. But for a team that basically came together three months ago, our chemistry and comradarie is pretty remarkable. Please let’s not sacrifice that for the sake of Spencer Haywood, Bob McAdoo, or Stephon Marbury. I think Melo’s outstanding, but I want him here on OUR terms, not HIS.

  43. jon abbey

    wow, can’t ask for much more than that, a balanced effort from eight guys against a tough young team, even if they played last night.

    some crazy +/- numbers for NY tonight, Shawne Williams was really -21 in 18 minutes? that looks like a misprint.

  44. David Crockett

    Sorry I missed the in-game. (Tonight was Busch Braggin’ Rights!) Looked like a very nice all around effort tonight on both ends. Durant got his–that guy, but it looks like we clamped down on others.

    Very nice.

  45. Spree8nyk8

    Look, you can’t take one win and jump on the “we don’t need another star” bandwagon. It’s one game, nothing more and nothing less, still only makes them 1-3 in their last 4. I mean yeah if you want to go to eastern conference finals or the second round, this team can probably grow into that. To win a title they are going to need help though.

  46. Ben R

    Spree – You can’t go chasing the top teams. Every move has to be made with the long term health of franchise in mind. We are not as good as the top teams, we might never be, but we need to let this team grow and develop. If you’re constantly swinging for homeruns, looking at the LA’s and Boston’s of the world, you’re gonna strike out alot more often than actually connect.

    Should OKC gut their team because they are not as good as LA or Boston or should they have patience and let their youth develop. We are as young as them and honestly I think just as good. We don’t need to win our championship this year. Let’s make the playoffs and see how we actually do before we gut the team.

    I personally don’t think we should trade a single person in our rotation unless a stupid hugely lopsided trade comes down the pipe. I say we go to war with the team we have and only make small trades to shore up weaknesses.

  47. latke

    Spree8nyk8: Look, you can’t take one win and jump on the “we don’t need another star” bandwagon.It’s one game, nothing more and nothing less, still only makes them 1-3 in their last 4.I mean yeah if you want to go to eastern conference finals or the second round, this team can probably grow into that.To win a title they are going to need help though.  

    Agreed, but I’m to feel as though ‘Melo will end up costing too much. We have young players, great cap flexibility, and a solid team. Good things usually happen to teams who keep themselves in that kind of position. This summer, we could re-sign chandler and at worst, bring in maybe Luther Head or TJ Ford along with maybe Kenyon Martin, Carl Landry, or Leon Powe, to shore up our bench. If we want to ensure maximum cap flexibility, we have the space to overpay these guys a bit to take one year contracts.

    The best case scenario – we resign chandler and steal a guy like Nene or Marc Gasol with the $10-11 million we have left in cap space. Either one of those guys could be enough, along with the maturation of the young dudes, to put us into the same department as Boston, LA or San Antonio (all of whom have a core of aging players and should decline some in the next couple years). OKC, Chicago, New York, and of course the Heat seem in the best position to represent the next generation of top teams.

  48. JK47

    jon abbey: wow, can’t ask for much more than that, a balanced effort from eight guys against a tough young team, even if they played last night.
    some crazy +/- numbers for NY tonight, Shawne Williams was really -21 in 18 minutes? that looks like a misprint.  

    That does look strange, because “Extra E” played pretty well tonight– 7 points on 7 FGA, three blocks, three rebounds, a steal and only one turnover in 18 minutes. Not world-beating stats, but decent for a swingman off the bench.

    Sometimes +/- numbers are just flukey.

  49. TheRant

    Ben R: Should OKC gut their team because they are not as good as LA or Boston or should they have patience and let their youth develop.

    Oh, that’s an easy one. Without question they should gut their team, preferably by trading Durant and Westbrook to the Knicks for Randolph and Rautins.

  50. BigBlueAL

    Just read this game note at the end of one of the game recaps:

    The game featured the top three career scorers from the 2007 draft. Durant came in averaging 25.5 points since being the No. 2 pick, Jeff Green (No. 5) was at 14.3, and Chandler (No. 23) at 13.9.

    Was that draft really that weak that Chandler at 14 ppg is the 3rd highest scorer of the class and that Jeff Green, who is considered to be a bit of an underachiever, is 2nd barely averaging more??

  51. BigBlueAL

    Well Horford and Noah were drafted in the Top 9 in that draft and they seem to clearly be the 2nd and 3rd best players in the draft. Conley has begun to start somewhat living up to his draft position now too.

    It seems like a great draft though in terms of late 1st round and 2nd round picks. Alot of very good players taken in those picks. A pretty horrible draft in terms of the Top 20 picks but the rest of the picks make up for it.

  52. Spree8nyk8

    Our “cap flexibility is a bit of a misnomer. Doing nothing will eventually cost us anyway. Any of chandlers raise will count against that cap. As will Gallo’s and anyone else we keep. If we cap out we can still sign those guys. And I’m sorry, but I do not see the point of sitting by to watch the development of a team that cannot win an NBA championship. If you had a crystal ball and told me that 4 years from now this team would go to the eastern conference championship and lose in 7 games I’d say gut them. Sorry man, but it’s been what 37 years? It’s time to play to win. I’m not saying gut the team right now, but start adding the pieces to win. And stop thinking after we beat one team that was on the second night of a back to back means that we don’t need to make moves.

    If the team misses out on Melo cause Melo signs somewhere so be it. But they still need to make some trades to cap out. They can trade for reasonable contracts but going into the off season with cap room this year is not superwise. The money will simply start to evaporate.

  53. MSA

    Every time I hear “young and developing core” I remember Portland.

    4 years later and they are not even close to be a contender.

  54. Nick C.

    MSA: Every time I hear “young and developing core” I remember Portland.4 years later and they are not even close to be a contender.  (Quote)

    That’s more bad fortune than a misstatement, unless Oden and Roy were injury risks back when the statement was being thrown about.

  55. d-mar

    Was at the game, and I focused on Gallo guarding Durant to see how he would fare. I have to give Gallo his props, he played him about as well as you can, and in the 3rd quarter was up in his grill on most of his shot attempts. Gallo catches a lot of heat for being a poor defender, but I think he’s improving and often willingly guards the other team’s best scorer. I think unfortunately he’s a victim of the “white European players can’t guard anyone” stereotype.

  56. MSA

    @124

    Well, there was a lot of bad luck for them. But you’re saying that with a healthy Roy and Oden they are at the same page of Lakers, Boston and Miami?

    The “fortune” factor is there for all teams. Boston is playing without basically their whole frontcourt and still has one of the best records in the league. Lakers played the whole season without Bynum and still maintained their level.

    That’s happen and could happen with the knicks too.

    For me this knicks team has a “core” of a contender. We must add some quality pieces not just some random-fill-the-gap-cap-friendly players. For that some players will have to go. If Melo fit one of this spots is another story.

  57. Brian Cronin

    But you’re saying that with a healthy Roy and Oden they are at the same page of Lakers, Boston and Miami?

    Very possibly – the Blazers went to six games last year against the Suns without Roy or Oden (yes, Roy played Games 4-6, but he clearly should not have and actually hurt the team by doing so when he was not really back from his injury), and the Suns went to six games with the Lakers (and Camby is a lot better matchup for the Laker frontline than the Suns’ centers – the Blazers were 2-1 against the Lakers in the regular season, and Camby did not play in the loss).

    Now, would you say that adding Melo and subtracting Gallo (or Chandler) and Fields would put the Knicks on the same page as those teams (you shouldn’t, because it wouldn’t)? Since it wouldn’t, why not go the route of developing their young players and adding pieces (which they can do and go over the cap enough so that they could re-sign all their own players, a la Portland)?

  58. MSA

    About the Blazers we will have to agree to disagree. I don’t think they are this good honestly.

    And I’m not saying we should trade for Melo. I’m AGAINST it. I’m just saying that this team in the future will be probably good and fun to watch. And that’s it.

  59. Peter87

    @125 I agree completely with you, d-mar. In fact I have already posted that I think Gallo’s an underrated defender.

    Back to the Melo question: outside of the technical merits, does anyone here agree with me that it’s more fun to root for a team of mostly drafted / underrated players, than just buying a bunch of superstars? Sure, the Yankees have a won a bunch of rings, but I find them usually to be a soulless team; they can’t match either the ’69 or ’86 Mets for heart. For me, sports isn’t JUST about winning; it’s about the passion. Ask yourself: would this make a good movie, or not?

  60. Brian Cronin

    And I’m not saying we should trade for Melo. I’m AGAINST it. I’m just saying that this team in the future will be probably good and fun to watch. And that’s it.

    What about Detroit when they won the 2004 title? That was basically a developed team, right?

  61. Nick C.

    Brian Cronin: What about Detroit when they won the title? That was basically a developed team, right?  (Quote)

    You could say the same thing about the Spurs or even the Webber Kings to a lesser extent.

  62. Brian Cronin

    Webber Kings, definitely.

    Spurs, though, I dunno, Duncan is just soooooo good that that seems to be outside of the Knicks best-case scenario (in other words, Amar’e is never going to be as good as Duncan). But that Kings team is a definite possibility, as there’s not a big difference between Amar’e and Webber (I’d probably still lean towards Webber, but it’s basically a toss-up).

  63. jaylamerique

    Peter87: @125 I agree completely with you, d-mar.In fact I have already posted that I think Gallo’s an underrated defender.Back to the Melo question: outside of the technical merits, does anyone here agree with me that it’s more fun to root for a team of mostly drafted / underrated players, than just buying a bunch of superstars?Sure, the Yankees have a won a bunch of rings, but I find them usually to be a soulless team; they can’t match either the ’69 or ’86 Mets for heart.For me, sports isn’t JUST about winning; it’s about the passion.Ask yourself: would this make a good movie, or not?  

    No, especially if that team loses. I want to see the Knicks win a championship one day and i dont really care how it gets done. Plus the 96′ and 98′ Yankees team were pretty special.

  64. MSA

    For every Piston team that we found in the history of the NBA will be 6 or 7 Blazers. Promising young teams that in the end won nothing.

    But I agree with Peter87. It’s fun to watch the way we are right now. But a championship team… well…

  65. Nick C.

    MSA: For every Piston team that we found in the history of the NBA will be 6 or 7 Blazers. Promising young teams that in the end won nothing.But I agree with Peter87. It’s fun to watch the way we are right now. But a championship team… well…  (Quote)

    But really with only one champion a year and a 3-6 year window the odds are that most teams will not win it all. If its championship or bust then you will always win that argument as you would with most forms of team construction.

  66. Nick C.

    I think you need a mix of both. I don’t necessarily disagree with you its just I inferred, rightly or wrongly, that you thought Portland sucked and assuch the “young core” concept did as well.

  67. Doug

    JK47:
    That does look strange, because “Extra E” played pretty well tonight– 7 points on 7 FGA, three blocks, three rebounds, a steal and only one turnover in 18 minutes.Not world-beating stats, but decent for a swingman off the bench.Sometimes +/- numbers are just flukey.  

    He came in with big leads and while he was playing, OKC would whittle those double digit leads to 8 or 9.

  68. NYK Ewing

    @125

    I was at the game too and agreed that Gallo stepped up his game on a lot of aspects. I can’t say too much though until he starts playing like this consistently… not really hitting shots consistently, but putting in effort consistently. He fought for rebounds (I’ve never seen him do that), he played good D, and he hit shots (should also be noted he didn’t get one flop call, which he usually does).

    I have two theories about his playing. One, I think he’s a lot like Nate, in that if he hits his first few shots of the game he’s about a 10x better player and thrives off the confidence (but it also works vice versa). Two, he steps up his game significantly when he’s against superstars. This might just be because I remember his game against Melo last year so well, but whenever I see him guard the other team’s star, it seems like he gets more into it.

    A third theory is that he might actually be on the cusp of becoming a star himself, although I’d rather think that’s not the case and be pleasantly proven wrong as the season progresses.

    It seems to me like a lot of people here are particularly conservative when it comes to rebuilding the team. I think this is a better mindset than ‘gut everything and go all out right now,’ but I don’t think a number of intangibles are being factored in. I think unquestionably, on paper, the best move right now is to take it slow and take a few years to rebuild. We could get Melo for (relatively) cheap, have a great shot in the Deron/Paul (/Howard?!) sweepstakes, and get a few quality roleplayers in the process. That mentality also shows on how a lot of people here favor advanced stats that give you a really good idea of what kind of player/team we’re against.

    The problem is, the game isn’t played on paper. Stats, no matter how advanced they are, can’t replace actually watching a player.

  69. tastycakes

    All Tastycakes wants for Christmas is a team that can compete for a championship.

    So yeah, we’re not there, but really, that’s all you can *ever* hope for. Y’all are talking about Portland not living up to the hype, well, take a look at these OKC Thunder we just outright decimated. They’re young. They have a super-duperstar. They won 50 games last year and most of their guys are barely out of diapers. So the press anoints them, most likely to win a dozen championships!! Durant is the new Basketball Jesus! But the games have to be played and unfortunately injuries are part of the game. Imagine if, say, Westbrook suddenly had Brandon Roy-itis and started moving like an old man, but they had already signed him to a max deal. Well, guess what, OKC would be rightly fucked.

    Point being: all you can ask for in the Association is a shot, and IMO, keeping this team together and intelligently adding the right kinds of role players and letting the kids develop is the absolute best shot we have, because there are no true superstars available this year. (I’m talking about you, Melo).

    This year, I am just happy that I get to watch the Bockers semi-frequently put together a beautiful game of basketball. Winning it all is NOT everything. I learned that from Ted Nelson (miss you big guy!).

  70. NYK Ewing

    Look at Hollinger’s PER – in one of the few lines I agreed with in Simmon’s tome on basketball, he points out that a system that ranks Marreese Speights 30th and Sean Battier 230+ isn’t going to be a perfect system. You need to look for intangibles that you can only get by watching the game / getting a feel for it. Stats are great, but they can be taken out of context.

    I think this also applies to free agency – you need to look at the context. Waiting it out makes sense, until you factor things in like fan and player discontent. The NBA is a business, and we’re in one of the biggest and most demanding markets in that business. The typical fan right now is not as patient as an informed poster on Knickerblogger, and the typical fan is also what generates revenue for the Knicks. Walsh has to play a balancing game between appeasing in the short term and building in the long term. You can’t just ignore the former, or you get issues that I think are plaguing teams like Orlando right now (except magnified by a market that’s like 5x bigger). The rumors are that Dolan is pressuring Walsh to get Melo quickly. I can’t confirm or deny them, but knowing Dolan (I’m very good friends with his neice and have met him on several occasions), I’m sure they’re true. Walsh’s job is harder than it looks.

    At the end of the day, I think the best position is somewhere between ultra-conservative and going all-out in terms of this team’s future. I personally hope for it to lean more towards conservative, but there are arguments for both sides.

  71. tastycakes

    Oh, and I’d be outright thrilled if the Thunder were our team, they absolutely ARE positioned to contend for the next 5-10 years. My point being: you never know.

  72. tastycakes

    [q]Walsh has to play a balancing game between appeasing in the short term and building in the long term. You can’t just ignore the former, or you get issues that I think are plaguing teams like Orlando right now…The rumors are that Dolan is pressuring Walsh to get Melo quickly.[/q]

    That doesn’t make sense to me. I may not be in NYC, but the energy and revenue that is getting generated by this team must dwarf any Knick team from the last decade.

    Well, it makes sense in as much as Jimmy Dolan is an idiot.

  73. Brian Cronin

    Look at Hollinger’s PER

    Even Hollinger will tell you that PER is almost entirely an offensive measurement, hence defensive specialist being underrated by it. Win Shares, however, thinks Battier is awesome (well, was awesome – he’s definitely one of those players whose skills will deteriorate pretty quickly, and that appears to have already begun, hence Houston seemingly offering him up in every trade scenario they put out there).

  74. ess-dog

    I agree with tastycakes,
    Gutting a team that is playing successful ball is not a recipe for greatness. We are clearly playing like a 5-6 seed right now.
    I’m not sure how this isn’t beyond every fan’s wildest expectations!
    We’re about 8 months removed from watching Earl Barron and Sergio Rodriguez fighting for contracts in meaningless games against the Celtic and Hawk bench players… but now we should be the Lakers???
    Get real!
    Even putting talent aside (lets assume the Knicks, Celts and Lakers all have the same talent level, which they don’t) how many years has the Celtic and Laker cores been together? 3-4 years? This Knicks team has been on the floor together for about 25 games.
    I love this team.
    We very well may trade for Melo and I’ll make the best of it if we do, but count me firmly against the idea. I’m not opposed to some tweaking and/or finding some good deal out there on the market. The truth is, we’ll probably have to part with someone eventually but I really like how Donnie holds every asset as a sacred and vital part of the team. Value around the league starts with how you value yourself.

  75. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Two things I want to say about the misuse of statistics:

    1) I saw someone talking about streaks in a previous thread, and I wanted to make this point: there is no such thing as a streak. Saying that someone is X for his last Y is an arbitrary choice unless you can isolate specific variables that have changed and can be shown to affect outcome: i.e. playing with different players on the team during a win “streak”; making a marked adjustment in one’s shooting mechanics at the foul line. Saying that the Knicks are 1 for their last 4 is an arbitrary “frame” superimposed upon a larger set of data — the data of the whole. It would be no less correct to say that they are 2 for their last 5.

    2) Saying that the game isn’t played on paper is a straw-man. Of course it’s not played on paper. But statistics measure the previous outcome of events that happen on a basketball court, which, unlike what we see in NFL quarterbacks, remains fairly consistent over time. If a player is a career .53 TS% shooter (and I won’t name names…), odds are that he’s never going to get in that +.60 range that makes him elite. Statistics may not be able to tell you why Rondo or Paul are such great on-the-ball defenders, but they certainly can tell you that they are. That’s what most important. If you move Chris Paul to a poor defensive team, he’s not going to suddenly become a bad defender.

  76. ess-dog

    And let’s remember, the key isn’t trading for a superstar, it’s making a LOPSIDED trade for a superstar. Celtics and Lakers are perfect examples.
    Let’s imagine in 2007 that the Twolves offer you a trade of Eddy Curry, Malik Rose, Fred Jones, Jared Jefferies and two or three draft picks for Kevin Garnett. Would you take it? Cause that’s basically the trade that went down.
    I’m exaggerating a bit (Jefferson did have more value back then) but essentially, he’s not that different from mid-career Eddy.
    Plus, what you get back is Garnett! Not a “star” with a bunch of statistical red flags like Melo, but a REAL star. A top 5 NBA player, no doubt.
    THAT is the kind of trade that creates NBA championship contenders, and they are very rare. The only other option is crazy free agency stunts like LBJ or getting Amar’e because the cheap-ass owner doesn’t want to pay him.
    In short, a Melo trade would NOT be a Garnett trade. If Melo says NYC or bust and Denver gets desperate and we can get him for AR, Curry and peanuts, fine.
    But otherwise, NO THANKS.

  77. Jafa

    Donnie checking in on Earl Barron and looking at Raymond Session:

    http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/70734/20101223/knicks_check_in_on_barron_still_prefer_backup_pg/

    We haven’t talked about Sessions for a while on this blog, so I looked at how his season is going and compared him to some back up PG options we have discussed, like Ridnour and Telfair (in case you are wondering HCJ, I also like your Antonio Daniels suggestion):

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=sessira01&y1=2011&p2=ridnolu01&y2=2011&p3=telfase01&y3=2011

    TS%? Ridnour
    eFG%? Ridnour
    AST/36? Ridnour & Sessions
    TOV/36? Ridnour & Sessions
    3PT%/36? Ridnour

    Maybe there is a reason we haven’t talked about Sessions this season. So why is Donnie knocking on this door?

  78. Nick C.

    Jafa, yowza. Sessions’ shooting has plummented. But Telfair is just such the no go worst assist ratio but highest TO ratio and FWIW a WS/48 of 0.006 when league average is @ 0.110. Telfair is in his own way Roger Mason Jr with minutes.

  79. NYK Ewing

    @ Brian Cronin

    I agree with you. But it’s one of the most comprehensive statistics we have in the game, and it still can’t represent a players true value. I’m not saying the statistic is worthless, it just needs to be put in context.

    @ Jowles

    I’m referring to people who single out certain statistics and present them as an accurate representation of who a person is as a character, so it’s not a straw man. Statistics are very beneficial, my problem (as I said in my post) is that you need to watch the game to tell you which statistics present an accurate portrayal of a player’s game. I’m not saying the statistics don’t exist for it, but you need to weigh them and put them in their context.

  80. d-mar

    I think the Hawks are an interesting comparison to our current situation, as we are about where they were the last few years, a middle of the pack playoff team with no real shot at a title. The big difference, IMO, is it’s NY vs. Atlanta, and we have a better shot at attracting FA’s down the road. And look at the Magic, they have always been considered “championship contenders” and did make the Finals, but are basically blew up the team around Dwight as they realized that they had no legitimate shot at a title.

    I guess the point is how difficult it is to become a true contender for a championship. The Celtics and the Lakers made lopsided trades that put them over the top, and the Heat situation is once in a lifetime. There really aren’t any shortcuts, you just have to try and improve every year, and I think Donnie knows that and won’t do anything stupid like his predecessor would.

  81. Z

    Just watched the game.

    Nice D. Good to know we have it in us.

    And the Knicks didn’t get hosed by the refs in this one! (Though I see a few people still managed to complain about the whistle-blowers in this thread. Clearly they weren’t feeling the pounding we were giving Westbrook on all of his “letting them play” drives :)

  82. Z

    Spree8nyk8: I’m sorry, but I do not see the point of sitting by to watch the development of a team that cannot win an NBA championship.If you had a crystal ball and told me that 4 years from now this team would go to the eastern conference championship and lose in 7 games I’d say gut them.Sorry man, but it’s been what 37 years?It’s time to play to win.   

    May I suggest you root for the Heat instead of the Knicks then for the next 5 years.

  83. Jafa

    d-mar: I think the Hawks are an interesting comparison to our current situation, as we are about where they were the last few years, a middle of the pack playoff team with no real shot at a title. The big difference, IMO, is it’s NY vs. Atlanta, and we have a better shot at attracting FA’s down the road. And look at the Magic, they have always been considered “championship contenders” and did make the Finals, but are basically blew up the team around Dwight as they realized that they had no legitimate shot at a title.I guess the point is how difficult it is to become a true contender for a championship. The Celtics and the Lakers made lopsided trades that put them over the top, and the Heat situation is once in a lifetime. There really aren’t any shortcuts, you just have to try and improve every year, and I think Donnie knows that and won’t do anything stupid like his predecessor would.  

    I’m taking a wait-and-see approach on the trades Orlando made. While I agree they were necessary, I don’t know if it moved them higher on the East contender totem pole. I still think a healthy Boston and Miami will beat them in 7 games.

    Speaking of what you need to do to become a true contender for a championship, lets take a look at recent past winners:
    Lakers – after getting Gasol in a trade
    Celtics – after getting KG & Allen in a trade
    Spurs – good draft picks, FA signings and smart management. No gimmicks here.
    Pistons – after getting Sheed in a trade
    Heat – after getting Shaq in a trade

    Crap. I guess we gotta make a trade. Unless we want to be like the Spurs…

  84. Jafa

    And by the way, Atlanta is a pretty attractive FA destination: Good weather year round, higher speed limit, grits on the menu and the ownership will grossly overpay if you show you can play.

    Heck, Shaq thought about it before going to the Celtics.

  85. DS

    Jafa: I’m taking a wait-and-see approach on the trades Orlando made. While I agree they were necessary, I don’t know if it moved them higher on the East contender totem pole. I still think a healthy Boston and Miami will beat them in 7 games.

    Speaking of what you need to do to become a true contender for a championship, lets take a look at recent past winners:
    Lakers – after getting Gasol in a trade
    Celtics – after getting KG & Allen in a trade
    Spurs – good draft picks, FA signings and smart management. No gimmicks here.
    Pistons – after getting Sheed in a trade
    Heat – after getting Shaq in a trade

    Crap. I guess we gotta make a trade. Unless we want to be like the Spurs…  

    And what gave those teams the best chance to trade for a superstar?? Holding onto their young talented pieces like Lamar Odom/Caron Butler; Marc Gasol (OK, maybe the Lakers got lucky); Al Jefferson and not cashing them in for payroll-clogging gunners like Joe Johnson, Vince Carter, and Carmelo Anthony.

  86. villainx

    And look at the Magic, they have always been considered “championship contenders” and did make the Finals, but are basically blew up the team around Dwight as they realized that they had no legitimate shot at a title.

    With Orlando, they will likely have a very legit shot to contend as long as Howard and some other competent complimentary players are there. So I don’t think they blew it up to the extent that blowing it up implies.

    I definitely think it’s worthwhile to view the Knick situation as it relates to how other teams build or rebuild and whatnot. At least in Orlando, if you want to discuss Melo, they brought in (albeit pass prime?) volume scorer in Vince Carter, and looks like that didn’t work.

  87. Spree8nyk8

    Z:
    May I suggest you root for the Heat instead of the Knicks then for the next 5 years.  

    Why because I’d rather see us at least try to beat those guys? I’d rather see them try and fail than to just say “well this teams good enough for 3rd in the east….mission accomplished”

  88. tastycakes

    Cock Jowles: right on.

    As a side note, I think Orlando actually severely weakened themselves with this round of trading. Arenas is past his prime (which wasn’t all that), Turkoglu is straight up DONE, and J-Rich doesn’t make that much of a difference. Meanwhile they lose their best perimeter defender and any cohesion they had from playing together.

    It’s MIA + BOS at the top and then I really believe 3-6 is up for grabs between ORL, CHI, ATL, and NYK. CHI is maybe my favorite to hit the 3 spot, they have been very strong since getting the Booze. Realistically, I’m imagining the Knicks finishing 6th, with a first round match-up against CHI .. that would be dreamy!!

  89. Jafa

    Tastycakes (what a name!),

    I agree with your points except for J-Rich. I think he’s better than Vince and Lewis right now and will have extra motivation being in a contract year. But who exactly what their best perimeter defender that they lost?

    Also, I’ll take either CHI or ATL in the first round. I like our chances against any of those teams.

  90. Ben R

    Spree8nyk8: I’d rather see them try and fail than to just say “well this teams good enough for 3rd in the east….mission accomplished” Spree8nyk8

    Spree that’s not what people are saying. We don’t know how good this team is. We’ve played less than 30 games together and are very young. I think all people are saying is let’s let this team develop, go to the playoffs and compete before we start tearing it down.

    We will probably need too add parts eventually, but lets make sure we know what we need before we start throwing away our youth in a desperate attempt to compete with the best teams. We have upside, Boston, LA, San Antonio, Dallas do not. In a cou-le of years they will be falling off and we will be one of the new generation of elite teams rising to the top.

  91. Spree8nyk8

    Man I can’t win any argument ever with you people. When I said wait and see how good they are everyone insisted that they were not as good as they seemed. Then when it becomes evident that they were not as good as they seemed everyone is against upgrading the team unless he basketball genie shows up and grants us three wishes. We are going to have to give up talent to get talent. And if we pass on Melo now the odds of us getting someone along that lines in the future is remote. It’s not every year you have someone of that caliber available, it’s even more remote to have someone of that caliber basically screaming “I want to go to NY!!!”. We spent years gutting the team trying to get a guy who never even took this team seriously and basically dismissed us as a joke. Now when we have a star player desperately trying to get here you guys make every argument against it. If we pass on this opportunity we will regret it for years to come. Everytime we get close to being something you’re going to wonder if Melo could have helped us get over the top. It’s also mind boggling to me that everyone seems more concerned with getting cp3 or dwill who aren’t even possible till after NEXT season when we have a Raymond Felton here and now, and he’s doing GREAT. Hell let’s find someone to replace Felton and Stoudemire, we’ll upgrade our two best players instead of fixing the rest or bringing in someone to compliment those two. I just watched Dwill shoot 6-19 last night and thought wow this is the guy they really want to get over Carmelo?

    We have an opportunity right now, an opportunity that we are unlikely to have again. If we have two stars here, getting decent role players to come here should not be difficult. At least that is my opinion.

  92. Thomas B.

    If Melo says NYC or bust and Denver gets desperate and we can get him for AR, Curry and peanuts, fine.
    But otherwise, NO THANKS.  

    (Quote)

    Let the church say Amen.

  93. Nick C.

    Spree, it must suck to be ahea dof your time. :-) But the point is a lot of the No ‘Melo doesn’t see him as a “game changer.” Typing this I think of Vince Carter with NJ, they may be different stylistically but at @ the same level.

  94. JK47

    I don’t get the Orlando trades at all. Did they secretly hire Isiah Thomas as a consultant or something? The Arenas trade is classic Isiah– move a bad contract for an even worse contract, a contract that pays a smallish, fading guard with character issues beaucoup dollars through the 2014 season. The only way I know Isiah wasn’t somehow behind it is that the Magic didn’t find a way to include multiple first-round draft picks in the deal.

  95. ess-dog

    Btw, Shawne still has a .718 TS%. If he can do any other thing well besides score, he could go from steal to huge steal.

    I’m going to throw something out there: A. Randolph for Thabeet, straight up. Who says no?

  96. JK47

    @167

    Thabeet appears to be completely terrible at the game of basketball, so I’ll say “no” to that one. I can’t envision any scenario in which Thabeet learns to play offense anywhere near well enough to earn minutes for Mike D’Antoni.

  97. BigBlueAL

    I think what the Knicks should do is play out the season with this team (adding a backup PG and/or C notwithstanding assuming it wont mean trading one of the young core of Fields/WC/Gallo) and see at the end how good they were this season.

    If this current team wins close to 50 games you have to start thinking this team w/o moves could become a perennial 50-55 win team assuming the young players naturally improve a bit and you build around them of course by adding depth. If they wind up winning in the low to mid 40’s and get the 6th seed and lose in the 1st round as we all expect (and for me at least would still be thrilled with) then it becomes a little easier to look to trade anybody not named Amar’e to try to get into that next level.

    You look at a game like last night and say they dont need Melo at all. Of course you look at a game like vs the Cavs and think no way they lose that game with Melo. To me it is a pretty interesting/tough question to answer. I dont think it is a clear answer either way in terms of would this team be much better w/wo Melo. I do think the only thing we should all agree on is its not worth trading for him if it means giving up all 3 of the young core, hell giving up 2 of them might be too much. But if it would only take one of them I think it is a trade really worth looking into.

  98. ess-dog

    JK47: @167Thabeet appears to be completely terrible at the game of basketball, so I’ll say “no” to that one.I can’t envision any scenario in which Thabeet learns to play offense anywhere near well enough to earn minutes for Mike D’Antoni.  

    His stats from last year aren’t that bad. .107WS/48 over 900 minutes and a .605 TS%. He can rebound (not as well as AR) and block shots.
    But yeah, for someone that makes almost 5 mil a year, it’s a huge risk. At least AR only makes a shade under 2 mil.
    I just feel like if we had even an average center to throw out there at times, it would help a lot considering how blocks really initiate our fast break (which is awesome.)

  99. latke

    Spree8nyk8: If the team misses out on Melo cause Melo signs somewhere so be it. But they still need to make some trades to cap out. They can trade for reasonable contracts but going into the off season with cap room this year is not superwise. The money will simply start to evaporate.  

    This year is not terrible. You only lose the MLE and Chandler money. Next year would be absolutely disastrous. We must without a doubt get over the cap by the trade deadline next season. Unless, of course, THe magic are crashing hard and d-howard is giving indications that he wants out. Then I would try to leave space for his contract. The problem is it would hurt our depth terribly.

    MSA: Well, there was a lot of bad luck for them. But you’re saying that with a healthy Roy and Oden they are at the same page of Lakers, Boston and Mia

    What options have they had to go all in? I think the team that more fits your “if you act now you could win a title!” is the Thunder. THey bring in one more good player and they might be over the top, and they could trade young talent to get that player.

    ess-dog: . Randolph for Thabeet, straight up. Who says no?

    Depends who looks better on our bench.

  100. Z

    JK47: I don’t get the Orlando trades at all.Did they secretly hire Isiah Thomas as a consultant or something?The Arenas trade is classic Isiah– move a bad contract for an even worse contract   

    Do we really not remember Isiah Thomas at all? His sin was that he turned bad contracts into worse contracts in the hope of becoming good.

    The Magic are already an elite team. They have a franchise center and are in win now mode.

    Rashard Lewis was contributing very little. True his contract is one year shorter, but Arenas is younger and is more productive. He’s also available not (solely) because of his diminishing play, but because the Wizards needed to move on after last season’s locker-room incidents.

    I think it’s similar to when the Knicks traded the albatross contract of Chris Mills for league pariah Latrell Sprewell. NY had a franchise center with a closing window and wanted to add a weapon. The move resulted in a trip to the finals.

    It may not be the most basketball savvy move ever, but it is rational.

    It’s not an Isiah move at all.

  101. JK47

    @172

    There might be a way to rationalize that trade, but considering there is a very good likelihood that Arenas spends much of that contract glued to the Orlando bench, it seems kind of like an Isiah deal to me. Arenas is a classic Isiah player in that his value comes entirely from his offense, and his offense isn’t even good to begin with. I’m 100% positive that if Isiah was re-hired a few months ago, his first move would have been to trade Eddy Curry’s expiring contract for Arenas.

    There’s one major difference between the Spree trade and the Arenas trade: Spree was still a good player when NYK acquired him. Arenas is a bad player– a sieve on defense and inefficient on offense.

  102. ess-dog

    Ugh, forget the Thabeet idea. He hits 1 of every 2 free throws.

    I’m becoming more and more convinced that D’Antoni will keep Stat at center. In fact, we’re looking a lot like the 04-05 Suns: Amare being Amare, Chandler being Marion, Gallo being a taller QRich, Fields as a tall sg like J.Johnson, and Ray as Nash w/ more defense.

    So it makes sense that a back up pg would be a higher priority than another big. We have 2 bigs sitting while being developed (I suppose.)

  103. Z

    JK47: There’s one major difference between the Spree trade and the Arenas trade: Spree was still a good player when NYK acquired him.Arenas is a bad player– a sieve on defense and inefficient on offense.  

    At the time of the trade, Spree and Arenas were basically the same player.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=sprewla01&y1=1999&p2=arenagi01&y2=2011

    For his career, Arenas has been the better basketball player across the board, in every statistical category except blocks, steals included.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=arenagi01&y1=2011&p2=sprewla01&y2=2005

  104. JK47

    @175

    If there was no such thing in the NBA as “defense,” then yes, Arenas and Sprewell would basically be the same player. Spree was a tremendous wing defender and a key component of a great defensive team. Arenas is a godawful defender, always was and always will be.

  105. rohank

    I went to the game last night.

    IT WAS FREAKING AWESOME.

    Garden was rocking more than i had ever seen in person.

    Loudest roar was for Amare’s block (you know the one I’m talking about). On a personal note, I started numerous “De-FENSE” chants from section 418.

    The defense was indeed very good. I wouldn’t trade for melo unless it was curry and randolph. That’s all i would offer. This team can easily grow into a championship contender. Gallo only 22, WC only 21, fields only 20ish.

  106. iserp

    I think Orlando improved with the trade, … but it is going to give them so little flexibility going forward, that it might bite them back. And you have to wonder if they could have get better players with what they gave.

  107. Brian Cronin

    Everytime we get close to being something you’re going to wonder if Melo could have helped us get over the top.

    I assure you, I’ll never regret not trading Gallo/Chandler, Fields and Randolph for Melo. The Knicks could be terrible for the next 10 years and I wouldn’t regret not making that deal – it’s way too much and since that’s apparently what Denver is insisting on, it does not make sense to get Melo.

    If Melo could be had a lot cheaper, then sure, but once you reach a certain level of cheapness, Denver is better off just trying to make a playoff run with him.

  108. Brian Cronin

    Peak level Arenas was better than peak level Sprewell, but yeah, at the time of their respective trades, Sprewell was the much better player.

  109. Spree8nyk8

    Brian Cronin:
    The Knicks could be terrible for the next 10 years and I wouldn’t regret not making that deal   

    This is as baffling a comment as i’ll ever read. I can’t wait till after the deadline passes so I don’t have to read stuff like this anymore here. I love this forum but man i feel like any side i take on any issue will be the wrong side apparently. Hell I was on BOTH sides of this argument and in the minority on both sides wtf?

  110. jon abbey

    Brian Cronin: Peak level Arenas was better than peak level Sprewell, but yeah, at the time of their respective trades, Sprewell was the much better player.  

    Sprewell was first-team All-NBA in 1994, Arenas made second team once and third team twice but never first team. plus Arenas has never played D, as was mentioned earlier…

  111. Z-man

    OKC coach Scott Brooks on the Knicks:

    “They have a lot of good players,” Brooks said. “Their starting five, they’re good. They’re well-coached. They play hard. They move the ball. That was as well of a first half of passing that I’ve seen all year against us. Just go down the line. Everyone on that team, they know what they’re supposed to do, and they do it well.”

    When’s the last time a coach of a good team spoke with such high regard for a Knick team? Music to my ears!

  112. d-mar

    Z-man: OKC coach Scott Brooks on the Knicks:“They have a lot of good players,” Brooks said. “Their starting five, they’re good. They’re well-coached. They play hard. They move the ball. That was as well of a first half of passing that I’ve seen all year against us. Just go down the line. Everyone on that team, they know what they’re supposed to do, and they do it well.”When’s the last time a coach of a good team spoke with such high regard for a Knick team? Music to my ears!  

    Yeah, but we still should have fired that bum D’Antoni when we were 3-8 and brought in a defensive minded coach like, say, Larry Brown (-:

  113. Z-man

    BTW, Shawne Williams and Landry Fields are like the best Knick surprise players since John Starks. I love what I have seen from Williams so far. Considering his lack of NBA game experience, he really knows how to play the game. He reminds me a lot of a young Stephen Jackson, except cooler-headed (for now.)

    When you think about how young Chandler, Gallo, Fields, Williams, Douglas are, it is mind-blowing to contemplate the potential of this team.

  114. ess-dog

    Well Shawne was taken higher in the draft. And he’s clearly been working on his shot. Randolph’s still young. If he keeps a good attitude, he could be a great player for us in a year or so. Look at Chandler’s improvement.

  115. JK47

    I’m glad Walsh and D’Antoni decided to go with the more talented Williams rather than go with the nepotism pick, Patrick Ewing Jr. I think the form on his jumper looks great and at 6’9″ he has terrific size for a wing.

  116. latke

    Brian Cronin: Now, would you say that adding Melo and subtracting Gallo (or Chandler) and Fields would put the Knicks on the same page as those teams (you shouldn’t, because it wouldn’t)? Since it wouldn’t, why not go the route of developing their young players and adding pieces (which they can do and go over the cap enough so that they could re-sign all their own players, a la Portland)?

    The thing that stands out to me in all this talk of trade-built vs. developed teams is that the trades that made teams into contenders have all been no-brainers. Of course you make cap room for shaq. Of course you trade crap for Gasol. Of course you bring in ray allen and garnett. No one would ever doubt that those guys are worth the $s. Carmelo it’s not so much the case. In each of these situations, without cap space and/or young assets, the teams could never have brought in the players they did. So IMO, regardless of your endgame, developing your youth is a good idea.

    As far as Orlando, it’s definitely a shakier proposition, and I’m sure if a guy like Sprewell had been available for the price (rashard lewis’s terrible contract) the Magic would have gone that direction. Nonetheless, I like Gilbert. He is a bad defender, and he takes bad shots sometimes, but he is constantly in attack mode and now that he’s in a position where he has teammates that he knows can score, I would expect him to become much more efficient. Will it put them over the top? I doubt it, but he was the most bang for the buck that orlando could get for Lewis’s contract.

  117. Z

    JK47: Arenas is a classic Isiah player in that his value comes entirely from his offense, and his offense isn’t even good to begin with.I’m 100% positive that if Isiah was re-hired a few months ago, his first move would have been to trade Eddy Curry’s expiring contract for Arenas.There’s one major difference between the Spree trade and the Arenas trade: Spree was still a good player when NYK acquired him.Arenas is a bad player– a sieve on defense and inefficient on offense.  

    I think the major difference between Isiah trading for Arenas and Otis Smith trading for him is that Isiah didn’t have Dwight Howard and Otis Smith does. If the Magic were bringing in Arenas to be the man (a la Isiah and Steph), then it would be a bad move. And if Isiah had a player of Howard’s caliber during his Knick tenure, his legacy would look a lot different.

    As for defense, I think Dwight Howard can erase a lot of the mistakes Arenas may make on defense.

    Besides, Arenas and Spree have almost the exact same career defensive rating, and Arenas has a higher career steal% and a higher defensive rebounding rate. And if we are basing Sprewell’s defensive legacy on the eye-test, my mind’s eye sees him poaching on a lot of steals that turned into 5 on 4’s against the Knicks.

    I think it was a decent attempt to improve the team, and I don’t think the Magic will regret it until 2013 when the financial sting of the deal rears its head. By that point, though, there will probably be some amnesty provision in the new CBA, and they’ll use it on him, so it won;t even matter :)

  118. JK47

    @191

    Defensive rating is a stat that is heavily influenced by one’s teammates, so using it to compare two players on different teams is kind of a dodgy proposition.

    For instance, look at Anderson Varejao. Last year, on a Cavs team that was a very good defensive team, his defensive rating was 102. The year before, it was 100. This year, without you-know-who on the team, it’s up to a career-high 107. It’s not like he’s a bad defender all of a sudden.

    It’s pretty obvious to me that Sprewell was a far superior defender. He always had a reputation as an excellent defensive player.

  119. Brian Cronin

    I love this forum but man i feel like any side i take on any issue will be the wrong side apparently.

    If you wouldn’t trade for Melo for anything more than a poo-poo platter (Curry and Randolph), then I would certainly agree with you!

  120. Brian Cronin

    Sprewell was first-team All-NBA in 1994, Arenas made second team once and third team twice but never first team. plus Arenas has never played D, as was mentioned earlier…

    First off, just on the face of your statement, it’s more impressive to make three straight All-NBA teams (whichever team) than it it to have one All-NBA team appearance. It’s really hard to make an All-NBA team, and Arenas made three in a row.

    But beyond that, come on, you remember 1993-94, right? Do you remember how weak the guard pool was? BJ Armstrong and John Starks were picked for the All-Star Game!! You have to give it a little more context – Arenas making second team when Kobe and Nash are first team and Dwyane Wade is third team (Wade was the second-teamer when Arenas was third-team) is a lot more impressive than Sprewell making first team when Mitch Ritchmond was the only other shooting guard who made the All-NBA team (and even there, you would have picked Payton in 1993-94 over 93-94 Sprewell easy, right? And yet Payton was third team. And you’d take 1993-94 Johnson over 1993-94 Spree, right? Johnson was second team).

    Peak Arenas was the rare point guard who combined high volume scoring with high efficiency as well a high assist rate and a low turnover rate for such a high usage rate (lower than Sprewell’s while maintaining a significantly higher usage rate).

    Sprewell’s defense did not make up for the vast offensive skills Arenas had.

    Now when Sprewell was traded, though, he was clearly a better player than Arenas is now. Arenas is a shell of his former self. But peak Arenas was really good – a super-efficient volume scorer is extremely hard to come by.

  121. Ben R

    Spree – I have never wanted to gut this team to get Melo, and I think what people were arguing with you about, before you changed your mind, was that you were saying that the Knicks might already be elite and many of us were stating that you were jumping the gun. Not arguing that this team wasn’t good, just trying not to get too excited. Personally I really liked your enthusiasm pre-Miami, even if my own jaded outlook as a Knick fan could not share your excitement.

    My personal take on the team has actually improved over the last five games not deminished. We beat two playoff teams in Denver and OKC, took another, possibly the best team in the league, down to wire and then fell apart in the second half versus a clearly better Miami team. The Cleveland loss does not concern me at all, we had a hangover from the game before, played terribly and still almost won. Every team has off nights, especially young ones. The Miami loss was growing pains, the next game in Miami should be better, we will still probably lose but it won’t be as lopsided. Considering we were about 2 tenths of a second from beating Boston and Cleveland needed a last second shot to take it to overtime we could very easily be 4-1 over the last five instead of 2-3.

    I projected us to win about 45 games and I actually think are better than that and would not be surprised if we are close to or even over 50 wins by seasons end. I think we have a really solid shot to make it out of the first round and then lose in 5 or 6 to one of the elite teams.

    You were questioning going after Paul or Deron when we already have Felton, I question going after Melo when we already have Chandler. Chandler is easily having as good of a season as Felton and I would argue that Chandler this season is alot closer to Melo than Felton is to either Paul or Deron. Plus I wouldn’t trade our young core for Deron anyway. I would rather hold steady than sell the farm even for an elite talent like Deron.

  122. iserp

    Brian Cronin: If you wouldn’t trade for Melo for anything more than a poo-poo platter (Curry and Randolph), then I would certainly agree with you!  

    No, Anthony is good. If you trade EC+AR+WC for Melo, you’re getting the better side of the trade.

    Let’s be reallistic, take the 50 best players as per Hollinger’s PER (Melo is 25 as i am writing) , and tell me who other player is avalaible AND young. Monta Ellis? Nene perhaps? Zach Randolph?

    Let’s be real, there aren’t many opportunities out there to improve the team, and Melo is one of them. Actually, Melo might not be a top 5 guy, but neither is Amare, and we see he really makes a difference. It’s true that he plays in a position well covered right now, but it is easier to have the stars in your team, and then fill it with role players than the other way round.

    The only other player we can get in FA that i find valuable is Marc Gasol. Tyson Chanler will likely resign with Mavs. Who other C is there waiting for us? Even the guys that will be FA in 2012 will likely remain in their teams or look elsewhere, Deron Williams in Utah, Dwight Howard in Orlando, CP3 who knows, he might even go to the Lakers (they have cap space if they renounce to bynum, or they might engineer a S&T)

    If you wait too much, extensions will kick in (2011 WC 2012 Gallo, Fields) and eat your flexibility; you have this year and the next to take advantage. I don’t see how Walsh can engineer a trade for a better player than Melo. Varejao is nice and all that, but i’d rather have on the court Melo / Gallo / Amare than Gallo / Amare / Varejao

  123. Brian Cronin

    PER overrates volume scorers (the flaw is so obvious I really don’t get why Hollinger just doesn’t adjust it). I don’t think Melo is a Top 25 player in the NBA.

    He is good, though, no doubt about that. I agree that the Knicks would improve if they did an EC/WC/AR trade for Melo. They just wouldn’t improve enough to warrant paying the guy more money than Amar’e, who Melo is nowhere nearly as good as. The NY Times had a great bit on Melo the other day – he was in the 25th percentile among NBA small forwards in points per shot attempt. 25th percentile!!!

  124. Ben R

    People are dismissing Chandler far too easily. The guy is having a breakout year. Since becoming the starter he is averaging almost 20 points a game with a 61% TS% while commiting just over 1 turnover. Carmelo this year is averaging just over 24 points with a 53% TS% and almost 3 turnovers a game.

    Long term I question how much of an upgrade Melo is over Chandler straight up. Chandler is 23 and has improved his TS% every single year he is in the league, Melo on the other hand is 26 and is having a third straight year of average efficiency.

    People say Carmelo will improve his efficiency by playing second fiddle to Amare but will that really be enough of an improvement to get him to 57.5%, Chandler’s TS% on the year, plus if Carmelo shoots less and scores closer to 20 points per game rather than 24 then I question if he is an upgrade at all over Chandler.

  125. Brian Cronin

    Melo is a better rebounder than Chandler, so that’s one area he’s definitely an improvement over Chandler. And I think there is definitely something to said for the mystique of a “star” like Melo. I don’t think there’s a lot to be said for it, but I think there’s something there.

    That said, while I think Melo is an improvement over WC, I’m totally with you that it is not a big enough of an improvement to want to trade WC for him. Again, I don’t want to trade either of Gallo, WC or Fields for Melo. The poo-poo platter of Curry and AR? Sure. Anything more – have fun in Brooklyn, Melo!

    The priority I would have for the Knicks is to trade Curry and AR for someone whose contract goes past this season. That way they could use the MLE next year (if there is a next year) and they could re-sign Chandler (and extend Gallo). Then they would continue to have their chips for the future if they chose to use them. Chandler making $9 million is still very tradeable.

  126. MSA

    I think we are valuing Chandler too much with his present contract.

    The way he is playing this season he will probably ask ALOT of money next season. So the present “productivity/payment” advantage over Melo could be not that big after all.

    Even though I don’t want to turn this team upside down for Melo (to be honest I dont even want him here), including WC in that trade doesn’t look like the end of the world for me.

  127. Brian Cronin

    If Chandler were to get a max contract, sure, I’d agree with you, as well.

    If Chandler gets $10 million, though, he’d be the better value than Melo.

    It is a fair point to note that we don’t really know what Chandler’s value on the open market would be right now. Wallaceesley Matthews (who was also a restricted free agent like Chandler) got $9 million a year. I would think Chandler would be valued at least that, right? Then again, it would come down to who had the money to make an offer to him.

  128. Z-man

    ess-dog: Well Shawne was taken higher in the draft.And he’s clearly been working on his shot.Randolph’s still young.If he keeps a good attitude, he could be a great player for us in a year or so.Look at Chandler’s improvement.  

    Come on, Ess, lazy statement. Shawne Williams was taken 17th, AR was taken 14th.

    I was enamored with AR and said over and over again in September that we should not trade him for Melo until we see him up close. Now that I have seen him, I have serious doubts about his b-ball IQ and his ability to play within the team concept. He is young and might one day live up to his potential, but I think that day is a long way off and not worth waiting for.

  129. Z-man

    I still don’t get the assumption that Melo is what he is and will never improve. I don’t want to give up more than one of Chandler (my preference) Fields or Gallo for him, but I am optimistic that he will play better here than he has in Denver.

    A lot of people were down on the Amar’e signing, basically saying that we overpaid for him, that he wasn’t a #1 guy, that his knee and eye and age made him too much of a risk, that he would’nt be nearly as good w/o Nash, that he wasn’t qualified to be a leader, etc.

    A lot of people were down on Felton, basically saying that he was the worst starting PG in the league, that he couldn’t shoot, that last year’s improved numbers were a fluke, etc.

    These folks have all turned out to be dead wrong.

    Melo is 26 years old. He hasn’t played with another superstar yet. He is hungry for a title. He wants to play here. The major flaw in his game (shot selection) is easily correctable and D’Antoni is just the guy to correct it. He has HOF talent and is just entering his prime. He has tons of teams drooling over him.

    I’m not going to be upset if we pass on him, but the doomsday scenarios being painted are just ludicrous. Given that Walsh has built this team, I have complete trust that he will do the right thing.

  130. alsep73

    Brian Cronin: Wallace Matthews (who was also a restricted free agent like Chandler) got $9 million a year.

    Heh. I know you mean Wesley Matthews, but the idea of ESPNNewYork giving Wallace Matthews $9 mil a year is both very funny and very scary.

  131. Brian Cronin

    Sure, Z-Man, I bet Melo will improve, too.

    I just don’t think he’ll improve to the point where he’d be remotely worth paying more money than Amar’e Stoudemire, who he’ll never be as good as (well, maybe when they’re both old and Amar’e is washed up, but you know what I mean).

    So when you combine having to give up a good, younger, cheaper player for the privilege of paying Melo more money long term than Amar’e, I don’t see it being worth it.

    If he wants to come as a free agent, then that’s different. He wouldn’t be making as much money in that scenario. So I’d be for it.

    And if he wants to come without the Knicks losing Chandler, Gallo or Fields, that’s be fine, too.

    Also, is shot selection really easily correctable? If it is easy to correct, why hasn’t Melo done it in his first eight seasons in the league?

  132. NYK Ewing

    Brian Cronin: Also, is shot selection really easily correctable? If it is easy to correct, why hasn’t Melo done it in his first eight seasons in the league?   (Quote)

    Are you kidding me? Have you played any sort of organized basketball before?

    Shot selection is heavily dependent on who you have around you. When you’re the best on the floor by far, you’re taking the hardest shots. When you’re not, you get a lot more open looks at the basket.

  133. NYK Ewing

    @ Brian

    Sorry, I don’t mean to come off as a d*ck. I’ve been playing competitive 5s throughout HS and college and still play now in the city. That notion has become so ingrained that it just seems intuitive to me by now.

  134. Spree8nyk8

    The even easier way to debunk that theory is to look at the player he is comparing him to, which is Wilson Chandler. People have harped on his shot selection for a really long time and including a good portion of the beginning of this season. His shot selection is much better now, and his TS% has risen as a result.

  135. Brian Cronin

    But if that is the case, that he will take the shots Wilson Chandler takes, then what’s the point of getting him when they already have Wilson Chandler in that role for much less money?

    I thought that the argument for getting Melo was that he would be the leading scorer when Amar’e is not in the game. In which case he’d be getting the same shots he would be getting in Denver, right?

  136. gransoporro

    I don’t doubt Carmelo Anthony’s qualities. I do think he is a top 25 player. What I doubt is if he is value for money, since the Knicks don’t want to go above the cap. Plus, the role is now well covered by Gallinari, Fields, Chandler, etc, all much cheaper even if of less star appeal.

    Now, the side effect of getting Anthony could be similar to Miami: veterans willing to take the minimum to win a ring; and then show it at the car dealership they will own after retirement. However I doubt the addition of Anthony will have the same Heat effect: something less than that.

    Overall I am not convinced that Anthony is THE good move the Knicks are missing.

  137. NYK Ewing

    Brian Cronin: But if that is the case, that he will take the shots Wilson Chandler takes, then what’s the point of getting him when they already have Wilson Chandler in that role for much less money?I thought that the argument for getting Melo was that he would be the leading scorer when Amar’e is not in the game. In which case he’d be getting the same shots he would be getting in Denver, right?  (Quote)

    That’s not the argument for getting Melo.

  138. Brian Cronin

    That’s not the argument for getting Melo.

    Sure it is. Whenever the Knicks go into a funk without Amar’e on the court, people say “this is where they need Melo.”

  139. Brian Cronin

    And if it isn’t, then really, what is the argument for Melo if it is not to be the main scorer when Amar’e is on the bench/in foul trouble?

  140. NYK Ewing

    Brian, it’s one thing to go off and say he’s inefficient in his offensive production (nevermind the fact that I and many others believe this is a product of the Nuggets system, and nevermind that the only time we’ve seen him where he’s not been the only go-to scorer on the team he’s been fantastic in international play). It’s another to completely disregard everything else he brings to the table and say that the sole reason we want him is to help Amare out with scoring. If that truly is your position, then its too inane for me to even justify the time I would spend to expain what else he would contribute to this team. If it’s not, then sorry I misunderstood you.

    It’s fair to be conservative about Melo, and I know he doesn’t correct the major problems this team has, but really, that position is just absurd.

  141. Brian Cronin

    So what is your argument for Melo? Why do you think it makes sense to make him the second-highest paid player in the NBA (while also giving up good, younger and cheaper players for the ability to make him the second-highest paid player in the league)?

  142. NYK Ewing

    And yes, I know I didn’t answer your question, mostly because its been answered in dozens of posts already (some by me) ever since the trade rumors heated up.

    Doesn’t anyone else watch the Nuggets on a consistent basis on League Pass or even national games?

    I still say Melo is not worth gutting the team for (and I still draw the line at Gallo/Curry/1st round pick from AR, though I’ve been considering Fields). But offering the Nuggets AR and Curry is basically telling them and Melo ‘We are waiting until free agency.’ It also means changing a rival team (in our DIVISION – ie ‘this will negatively affect our record down the road’) from a doormat to a playoff squad instantly. It’s worth something more than what you’re willing to give up to prevent that from happening, and I think Walsh (and pretty much every Knicks writer that I’ve read) agrees with that.

  143. d-mar

    Z-man: I still don’t get the assumption that Melo is what he is and will never improve.I don’t want to give up more than one of Chandler (my preference) Fields or Gallo for him, but I am optimistic that he will play better here than he has in Denver.A lot of people were down on the Amar’e signing, basically saying that we overpaid for him, that he wasn’t a #1 guy, that his knee and eye and age made him too much of a risk, that he would’nt be nearly as good w/o Nash, that he wasn’t qualified to be a leader, etc.A lot of people were down on Felton, basically saying that he was the worst starting PG in the league, that he couldn’t shoot, that last year’s improved numbers were a fluke, etc.These folks have all turned out to be dead wrong.Melo is 26 years old.He hasn’t played with another superstar yet.He is hungry for a title.He wants to play here.The major flaw in his game (shot selection) is easily correctable and D’Antoni is just the guy to correct it.He has HOF talent and is just entering his prime.He has tons of teams drooling over him.I’m not going to be upset if we pass on him, but the doomsday scenarios being painted are just ludicrous.Given that Walsh has built this team, I have complete trust that he will do the right thing.  

    Amen, Z-man, I just don’t get this trashing of Melo. Last year, the Nuggets won 55 games. Only 3 teams won more – Lakers, Cavs and Magic. Denver’s starting lineup included 2 players on the downside of their careers – Billups and Martin – a talented head case – JR Smith – and a decent center in Nene. Melo averaged 28.4 pts, 6.7 reb., 1.3 steals and 83% from the FT line. Which NBA players could you plug into his spot that would deliver 55 wins? I know some will point out their playoff failures, but jeez, he averaged 30.7 pts. and 8.5 reb., so can you blame it on him?

  144. d-mar

    Despite my comments above, I’m still with most posters on this site – don’t give up the ranch to get Melo, be patient and if he falls in our lap, fine, and if not, we move on.

  145. danvt

    A few things:

    I was hoping they’d be a resilient team after watching them provide false hope for a decade and the win against OKC seems to be a step in that direction. Both the Celtics and Cavaliers games were winnable, so, overall, just one bad game out of the last very many.

    This team reminds me of the pre Shaq trade Suns. They could go from even to up 15 in a short amount of time (or the other way I suppose). They had young athletic non brand name players in addition to a two established stars. Diaw, Barbosa, Bell, Marion (maybe he was a star?) provided speed and athleticism and they were very explosive. The Shaq trade was the beginning of the end for a group that almost got to the finals.

    There is that same kind of special chemistry here now potentially. We certainly don’t have any problem scoring. I prefer both Gallo and Will to Melo. They don’t dominate the ball, it moves, and the team scores.

    I hope the Nets pull off the Melo deal. I like Donnie and a plan B. He did a great job this summer. Instead of thinking about Lebron and nobody he was forced to think about his team 1-15. We have a potentially excellent young roster and financial flexibility. All the draft picks we traded will be mid first rounders because we’ll probably make the playoffs. So the McGrady trade gamble paid off.

    Let’s see how it goes and make smart moves to get better as we evaluate our club going forward and see who is available.

  146. Brian Cronin

    And yes, I know I didn’t answer your question, mostly because its been answered in dozens of posts already (some by me) ever since the trade rumors heated up.

    I don’t recall your argument. I repeat my argument against getting him all of the time. I just did a few posts ago. I’ll repost it now:

    I bet Melo will improve, too.

    I just don’t think he’ll improve to the point where he’d be remotely worth paying more money than Amar’e Stoudemire, who he’ll never be as good as (well, maybe when they’re both old and Amar’e is washed up, but you know what I mean).

    So when you combine having to give up a good, younger, cheaper player for the privilege of paying Melo more money long term than Amar’e, I don’t see it being worth it.

    If he wants to come as a free agent, then that’s different. He wouldn’t be making as much money in that scenario. So I’d be for it.

    And if he wants to come without the Knicks losing Chandler, Gallo or Fields, that’s be fine, too.

    That’s my take on why I don’t think adding Carmelo Anthony is a good idea if it costs the above three players. Why do you think he is worth trading Gallo and possibly Fields for him?

  147. ess-dog

    Z-man:
    Come on, Ess, lazy statement.Shawne Williams was taken 17th, AR was taken 14th.for.  

    Whoops. My brain remembered him as a #7 pick.

  148. danvt

    Also, NY Times blog talked about Fields as a potential second star. I mean, why not? 29 games as a pro. He’s ahead of Lee in his development.

    Gallo turned his season around after the “I’m not LeBron” statement. He is really a very unselfish player. His passing has improved. He doesn’t pound the ball on the perimeter like he used to. He gets open and picks his spots. He carries the team at times and blends in at others.

  149. ess-dog

    Seriously, is there anyone on this board that thinks a Gallo, Fields, AR as a pick, 2014 pick, and Curry for Melo is something that should happen?

    I think most of us are in agreement that sure maybe Melo would be ok, but we don’t want to gut the team for him.

    Is anyone (besides Cock Jowles) dead set against Melo at all costs?

    Is anyone willing to give Denver whatever they want for Melo in a trade this year?

  150. Z-man

    ess-dog: Seriously, is there anyone on this board that thinks a Gallo, Fields, AR as a pick, 2014 pick, and Curry for Melo is something that should happen?I think most of us are in agreement that sure maybe Melo would be ok, but we don’t want to gut the team for him.Is anyone (besides Cock Jowles) dead set against Melo at all costs?Is anyone willing to give Denver whatever they want for Melo in a trade this year?  

    No, and certainly Donny doesn’t.

    Re: Melo v. Chandler, there are many things that Melo does better than Chandler. For one, he goes to the FT line as much as anyone in the league, particularly in the 4th quarter. He also rebounds better. He is also better at converting open shots (the problem is that he takes too many contested shots…I think there was a study referred to a couple of weeks back that pointed this out.)

    Re: Melo v. Amar’e, I don’t see Melo as a 2nd option to Amar’e as a first, any more than I see Pierce as a second option to Garnett as a first. In fact, I see Melo and Amar’e complementing each other much the way that Pierce and Garnett complement each other. Three years ago, both could cary the team on any given night, or efer to Allen and the other complementary players when they were having a good game. That’s what great teams do, they have their team concept but can fall back on talent when necessary. There is absolutely no disputing Melo’s raw talent. The only question is: can he be a team player, and does getting him compromise putting a good supporting cast around him and Amar’e? If the answer to either question is no, then I agree that he should pass. But to pass on the basis of questioning his talent and potential is ludicrous.

  151. danvt

    ess-dog: Is anyone (besides Cock Jowles) dead set against Melo at all costs?

    I understand the point, but the truth is, even if he comes here as an FA and the same team exists with, say, Roger Mason getting cut, Will or Gallo, lose playing time. We, also, may not get to ever see what AR does.

    My point is that I actually want to root for who we have. I remember when we gave up on Rod Strickland for Mo Cheeks. We beat the Celtics in a playoff series, when Bird missed a dunk, but still lost and then I watched the guy have an amazing ten year career for other teams. Cheeks was gone by the end of the next year. Not analogous to Melo exactly, but Will is making a high percentage of his shots over this last run, including three pointers, and I think this is probably the real him that we’ve been waiting for.

  152. iserp

    Brian Cronin: They just wouldn’t improve enough to warrant paying the guy more money than Amar’e

    The argument for Melo is that he is the best move we can make.

    Why did Orlando get Arenas? because they couldn’t get Melo
    Why did Lakers get Gasol? because they couldn’t get Garnett
    Why did Blazers get Miller? because they couldn’t get Turkoglu (!)
    Why did the Spurs get Richard Jefferson? …

    So, we have a good amount of cap space and some trade chips moving forward. Let’s do the best we can with them. We can think about lots of best-case scenarios, but they are unlikely. Melo is not only a good scenario, it is a likely one.

    So, let’s compare four possible scenarios:
    1) NYK trades Eddy Curry, Anthony Randolph and Wilson Chandler for Carmelo Anthony. In the offseason, we spend the MLE on Joel Przybilla.
    2) The same as above, but you add Gallo or Fields to the trade.
    3) The Knicks resign WC and sign Tyson Chandler (or your favourite FA).
    4) The Knicks resign WC and wait for 2012
    5) Melo signs with the Knicks in the offseason and we resign WC.

    It is easy to see that 5 > 1 > 2
    What about 1 and 3? That is the same as what would you rather have in your team Melo / Przybilla or WC / TC. The same for other combinations

    If you don’t do 1 or 2, you’ll get 3, 4 or 5. So let’s say Donnie Walsh is offered 2, but since he thinks 3,4 & 5 > 2 he passes. Then Denver offers 1; what does DW think:

    If he thinks 3 > 5, he’ll pass no matter what.
    If he thinks 1 > 3 he has to gauge how likely is 3 in relation to 5. If 3 is very likely, he should accept the offer
    If he thinks 3 > 1 he should pass the offer, but still, T Chandler is not a given, then he might do 3b (M. Gasol) 3c (Oden) 3d… If 3a > 1 > 3b and 3a is not very likely, then he might still go for 1.

    We aren’t getting many chances like this one, let’s not dismiss it so easily.

  153. Z-man

    Tommy Dee at TKB had an excellent write-up on Gallo’s game vs. teh Thunder. If he can play like that consistently, look out NBA!

    BTW, my most compelling argument AGAINST the Melo trade is that there is something to be said for watching a team with a ton of home-grown talent. I have liked Chandler since his rookie year, and have defended him vs. Ted Nelson and others who were harsh critics. Gallo and Fields are easy to love, too. Still, does anyone (even his most ardent supporters) want the eminently lovable David Lee back for Amar’e at this point?

  154. iserp

    I haven’t discussed too much the “wait for 2012 scenario” which is an important one… but you’re rolling your dice on what the players will think about the Knicks in 2 years and the new CBA (not to mention Amare’s legs, i hope he has Malone longevity, but…).

    We might have certain urgency to reach the top, since we see the goal closer. And i think Melo is a good move in that direction. We’ll have many more chances to fill the backup C (if Melo comes, i believe Amare will play C willingly) than to get a really solid starter.

    We can roll our dice with CP3, he is better than Melo; but that could turn out to be “The Decision 2.0″, Melo wants to come, 100%.

    Now… i think i am repeating myself, xD (sorry). I trust Donnie in what he chooses; it is not easy to see how good/bad a player will become in a different team. We have seen the good (Nash, Felton) and the bad (Iverson, Curry); and although in hindsight is very easy to say how inflated some guys numbers are; at the time of the decision is hard to say if they are for real or not; even using advanced statistics.

  155. Brian Cronin

    The argument for Melo is that he is the best move we can make.

    The Knicks can trade Curry/AR for players signed through next season (and this is something they can easily do – it’s no shot in the dark, Curry/AR has plenty of value) to put them over the cap so that they can extend Chandler and use the MLE on whoever.

    I think that’s the best move the Knicks can make.

  156. iserp

    Brian Cronin: The Knicks can trade Curry/AR for players signed through next season (and this is something they can easily do – it’s no shot in the dark, Curry/AR has plenty of value)

    Yes if you want Stephen Jackson… I mean, how many teams are shopping their franchise players at a discount?

  157. Spree8nyk8

    I am probably the only person that has this as even a remote concern. But along with what Ewing said about not letting NJ get Melo, one of the other reasons that I guess I am really for trying to get Melo now is that Miami, while really starting to play great ball, has not won anything yet. I look at them like the Bulls before they won, you could see that they were a great team on the rise but for several years in a row someone found a way to stop them. But once they won, they were unstoppable. You could not dethrone them. I just don’t want to see Miami become that unstoppable force and maybe getting Melo this year will not be enough to beat them. But I know for sure that the current team can’t. And once Miami finds that recipe for winning, we could very well be up against Jordan’s bulls again for the next half a decade.

    I know it’s not the best argument, I know most will not agree. But man those years sucked and i really don’t wanna go through that crap again.

  158. Brian Cronin

    Yes if you want Stephen Jackson… I mean, how many teams are shopping their franchise players at a discount?

    Obviously, Jackson specifically wouldn’t work, but sure, players just a bit better than Jackson are fine with me. Whoever the best player Walsh can get for Curry/AR that is signed through next year is what I want. There are plenty of those players out there.

  159. ess-dog

    Spree8nyk8: I am probably the only person that has this as even a remote concern.But along with what Ewing said about not letting NJ get Melo, one of the other reasons that I guess I am really for trying to get Melo now is that Miami, while really starting to play great ball, has not won anything yet.I look at them like the Bulls before they won, you could see that they were a great team on the rise but for several years in a row someone found a way to stop them.But once they won, they were unstoppable.You could not dethrone them.I just don’t want to see Miami become that unstoppable force and maybe getting Melo this year will not be enough to beat them.But I know for sure that the current team can’t.And once Miami finds that recipe for winning, we could very well be up against Jordan’s bulls again for the next half a decade.I know it’s not the best argument, I know most will not agree.But man those years sucked and i really don’t wanna go through that crap again.  

    Hollinger (not Bible) has the Miami big three ranked even above all the Bulls big threes. The highest rated big three ever. Of course, you have to play the games, but it’s pretty daunting.
    I just don’t see us beating them with or without Melo. Maybe with Melo and Paul we have a shot with a good supporting cast.
    And you never know – if they lose Wade or Bosh to injury for a long period of time, they suddenly become just great and not all-time great.

  160. NYK Ewing

    Going to go out on a limb here and say that the Nets with Melo/Harris/Lopez have a better starting 5 than us (and better than a lot of the league actually). They would essentially have sacrificed most of their depth (future depth, not like they have depth right now) in that deal, but they would be evenly matched against us.

    Lopez has definitely not hit his ceiling yet, and people seem to forget how good Harris is – he might be having a down year, but I’d wager that’s a fluke. I guess one of the benefits to having YES in the Yanks’ offseason is seeing Nets games, and at one point he was a top PG in the East (and I think still can be).

  161. d-mar

    NYK Ewing: Going to go out on a limb here and say that the Nets with Melo/Harris/Lopez have a better starting 5 than us (and better than a lot of the league actually). They would essentially have sacrificed most of their depth (future depth, not like they have depth right now) in that deal, but they would be evenly matched against us.Lopez has definitely not hit his ceiling yet, and people seem to forget how good Harris is – he might be having a down year, but I’d wager that’s a fluke. I guess one of the benefits to having YES in the Yanks’ offseason is seeing Nets games, and at one point he was a top PG in the East (and I think still can be).  

    Wow, I really have to disagree with that, NYK. I would take our starting 5 (plus our bench) in a heartbeat. Would you take Harris over Felton? And who are the other 2 starters for the Nets? Morrow and Outlaw? I just don’t see it.

  162. Ben R

    Comparing the Melo vs Chandler argument to the Lee vs Amare one is not a good argument. People said Amare was not a huge upgrade because people expected Amare’s numbers to go down and were concerned about injury. Amare’s numbers did not go down and it’s too soon for the injury question. We were not expecting Amare to come in here and become a different player. He is the same player he’s been for the last 5+ years. So Amare is who he showed himself to be, the concerns about him being a product of Nash were unfounded.

    With Melo people seem to think he will come here and become a different player, because the player he’s been for the last three years is a serious downgrade on Chandler or Gallo. Players are who they appear to be. Melo is extremely talented but he dominates the ball and shoots difficult shots. To expect him to come here and all of a sudden become simply a cog in our offfense only shooting when he’s open and moving the ball along the perimeter, taking a backseat to Amare, are kidding themselves. Melo is who he is. If he only takes open shots how is he even an upgrade on Gallo or Chandler.

    People need to stop looking at his talent and skill and just look at his production becasue end of the day that is all that matters and I do not want a player on this team scoring 20+ points while shooting a TS% of below 55%.

  163. Spree8nyk8

    There are other intangibles to Melo though, he creates his own shots better than WC or Gallo do although both have improved in that area this year, he rebounds better, steals more. But what I think is also a huge part is that he should in theory make the players around him better. He should draw more double teams than either WC or Gallo, so that should make whichever one of them would still be here able to get better opportunities. I don’t see why people insist that if he’s going from a system where he is a primary scorer to going to one where he is not the primary scorer why he wouldn’t be able to adapt to that. I really think this is very narrow thinking.

  164. villainx

    I think Stoudemire has demonstrated he is a different player than we thought he’d be. That he could be such a dominant half court player is a bit of a surprise.

    The thing that I like to add about Carmelo Anthony is that he actually wants to be with the Knicks. That says something, and is pretty refreshing. Though ultimately if the Knicks should want him is a different matter.

  165. JK47

    This made me chuckle:

    “Nets Hope To Sell Carmelo On Future By Landing Miller”

    That sounds like a genius plan, trading the 27-year old point guard who is the best player on your team (Devin Harris) for a 34-year old point guard who has zero career all-star appearances.

    So you’d be left with Andre Miller, Anthony Morrow, Carmelo Anthony, Kris Humphries and Brook Lopez, who is playing like absolute dog crap this season. Good luck with that, Nets– uh, I mean Brooklyn New Yorkers or whatever cheeseball name you decide to go with.

  166. BigBlueAL

    Yeah, if Melo goes to the Nets Im not worried about them at all. From everything I have read recently Harris will be traded in all the scenarios leaving the Nets with Melo, Lopez and crap basically. I mean Ive read guys like Al Harrington going to the Nets too along with old PG’s like Billups or Miller as mentioned above.

    Plus they will have no draft picks basically in the next couple of seasons and not much cap room once they re-sign Lopez. Also as has mentioned Lopez has actually regressed alot and does absolutely nothing outside of scoring which he isnt even doing efficiently. He makes Amar’e look like Rodman on the boards. Actually he has gotten worse every season in terms of rebounding and shot blocking.

    The Nets are the least of the Knicks worries to say the least even if they get Melo.

  167. NYK Ewing

    d-mar:
    Wow, I really have to disagree with that, NYK. I would take our starting 5 (plus our bench) in a heartbeat. Would you take Harris over Felton? And who are the other 2 starters for the Nets? Morrow and Outlaw? I just don’t see it.  

    That’s why I said their starting 5 vs ours not including the bench, overall I’d say we’re a better team. But if you asked me who I’d rather have any season before this, I would say Harris instantly. He’s an all-star and a great player who is having a down year (yet to see if that’s a fluke or a trend yet). Lopez is another all-star and he’s only going to get better. It’s hard to find a 7 footer with his skill-set. Add Melo, who is a superstar and a potential future hall-of-famer. And yea, Morrow and Outlaw are roleplayers. But saying Fields/Gallo/Chandler are anything significantly more than roleplayers at this point in their careers is silly (note that I’m not talking about their potential).

    I think you’re underestimating how good of a ‘big three’ DH/Lopez/Melo would be.

  168. GHenman

    Melo said last week that he wants to sign the extension rather than wait for free agency. I think if there was a reasonable deal to be made with Denver, it would have been done by now. I doubt if AR has any trade value right now and I doubt if Donnie wants to give up any of our core guys. This makes it unlikely we can acquire Melo now or as a free agent.

  169. NYK Ewing

    If they don’t retain DH in the process, then I agree they’re not too much a threat, but I don’t think any team with Melo is a pushover.

  170. JK47

    NYK Ewing:
    That’s why I said their starting 5 vs ours not including the bench, overall I’d say we’re a better team. But if you asked me who I’d rather have any season before this, I would say Harris instantly. He’s an all-star and a great player who is having a down year (yet to see if that’s a fluke or a trend yet). Lopez is another all-star and he’s only going to get better. It’s hard to find a 7 footer with his skill-set. Add Melo, who is a superstar and a potential future hall-of-famer. And yea, Morrow and Outlaw are roleplayers. But saying Fields/Gallo/Chandler are anything significantly more than roleplayers at this point in their careers is silly (note that I’m not talking about their potential).
    I think you’re underestimating how good of a ‘big three’ DH/Lopez/Melo would be.  

    Brook Lopez stinks. He rebounds like Eddy Curry and shoots with the efficiency of Knicks-era Jamal Crawford. His scoring efficiency and rebounding rate have gotten worse every year he’s been in the league. He is about as overrated as they come.

  171. latke

    Brian Cronin:
    The Knicks can trade Curry/AR for players signed through next season (and this is something they can easily do – it’s no shot in the dark, Curry/AR has plenty of value) to put them over the cap so that they can extend Chandler and use the MLE on whoever.I think that’s the best move the Knicks can make.   

    I think this is the best move if we can’t get ‘Melo for peanuts. You shop the AR/Curry package for a package that gets you back players that expire next season, you get the MLE and resign Chandler. That kills our cap space for 2012, but it gets us expirings. You hope that a star who has a better chance of putting us over the top becomes available, like D Williams, Paul, or Howard, and then you offer those expirings along with a package of 2 of our starters for that guy.

    The problem is that if we can’t get camby, our options for curry-sized contracts that expire in 2012 are pretty limited. You have Chris Kaman, who might be available from the Clips, but he seems too slow to play for D’Antoni. Then you have Gerald Wallace, who has a player option for the 12/13 season (which could screw us but could also help us, as, similar to the ‘melo situation, we could trade him after the season but before free agency). Wallace is a good player, but he is almost the same player as Wilson Chandler. Finally, you have Chauncey Billups, who has a team option this summer for $14 million. Billups might actually be the best option. He’d be grossly overpaid, but at least he could make a nice 6th man, backing up and playing next to felton for 25-30 MPG. I don’t know if he’d accept that role though.

    After that, you have guys like Carlos Delfino ($3.5), Jermaine O’Neal ($6.5), James Posey ($6.9), Jamison ($15.0), Bibby ($6.2). All of them might not even get up off the bench for the knicks.

  172. tastycakes

    Z-man: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/fields_of_dreams_TshRmiWBy37DVcmxLVj3LPWalsh compares Fields to John Havlicek.Crazy.  

    Funny, my Dad made the same comparison. (He also once famously suggested that Hubert Davis was going to be a hall-of-famer, so …)

    Either Walsh is talking him up to inflate his value OR he wants to keep him. Personally, if you have young Havlicek, you keep him.

    I mean, Gallo is also the best shooter Mike D has ever seen, so I guess we can safely say that the Knickerblogger crowd is not the only bunch of homers around.

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