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Sunday, June 16, 2019

2011 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Sixers

For your in-post game thoughts.

Thomas B here:

The 76ers (1-5) are winless in two road games.  The Knicks (3-2) are 1-1 at home after defeating the Wizards.  ESPN is reporting that Andre Iguodala  is out for this game.  A quick look at the four factors shows the 76ers are 19th in offensive efficiency (104.4), and 16th in defensive efficiency (105.8).

The match up of Brand vs. Stoudemire should be interesting.  Brand is playing well (18.6 points per 36, 13.8 reb-r) after two seasons in which he struggled to stay healthy.  Brand has also pushed his blocks per game closer to he pre-Sixer years (1.9/per 36). The front line is rounded out by several other shot blockers in Hawes (2.5), Speights (1.2), and–wait he is still playing?–Battie (2.7).  I’d like to see Stoudemire not force the action too much but keep pressure on the foul prone 76er front line.  It’s the sort of smart balancing act you’d like to see from your star forward when facing this sort of front line.

Iguodala’s injury will likely mean more minutes for Louis Williams and Dru Holiday.  Williams is shooting well so far this season (63.4 TS%, 40.9 3fg%).  Holiday isn’t shooting as well but his speed and size may create some match up problems for Felton and Douglas.  Holiday is turnover prone, so sustained defensive pressure would be helpful. Evan Turner and Andres Nocioni are also options to take Iguodala’s minutes.

The nice thing about the Knicks so far is that they have beaten the teams they should beat.  In past years, a game like this was the classic trap game.  A team struggling and down a top player limps into MSG.  Everything pointed to a Knick victory and yet the Knicks found a way to drop the game.   Winning a game like this one would be a significant step away from past practices.  Let’s hope we are truly turning a page.

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190 comments on “2011 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Sixers

  1. massive

    The Knicks can actually start off the season 4-2 (maybe 4-3 if we played Orlando), with the only two losses being to not only playoff teams, but 50 win teams (and those were actually winnable games). I am loving the beginning of this season.

    I’m hoping Amar’e can have another efficient game, and Anthony Randolph gets some time playing in a line-up where he’s the 3rd-5th option. He needs to be taking better shots.

  2. giantg

    My Wish-list-seven for today’s game:

    1) The Knicks take Philly seriously from the jump and pick up where they left off on Friday night
    2) Gallo gets hot early
    3) STAT stays patient
    4) TD keeps DWTDD
    5) Moz takes a step closer to getting in to the flow
    6) Felton keeps us thinking the best has yet to come
    7) The Knicks keep the 76ers under 100 pts

  3. JK47

    The 76ers are a pretty weak offensive team and they will be without their best two-way player, Andre Iguodala. Should be a good opportunity for NYK to solidify their #7 overall defensive rating. No John Wall, Derrick Rose or Rajon Rondo to deal with today either. I’m pumped for this game.

  4. Frank O.

    Why am I blacked out of MSG in washington? Is the game on national TV? If it is who’s carrying it?

  5. Frank O.

    It looks like Directv problem. running checks.
    So annoying because I was watching the pregame and it just stopped when the game coverage started.

  6. jaylamerique

    is anyone else excited by our offense. Coach D is a really good offensive coach. the team is in constant motion on that side of the ball

  7. Ted Nelson

    Not liking the return to the Amare/Wil show the last 3 possessions or so… 2 long jumpers from those 2 and then an Amare 1-on-4 move… obvious result = zero points… Need to get back to the team concept and move the ball.

  8. Ted Nelson

    tastycakes: Sixers are unconscious right now.They can’t stay this hot.  

    That is true, the thing that discourages me is just that when the Knicks got down they turned away from team offense and went to a playground style… I guess maybe this is part of the team-building process and establishing an identity…

    But, yeah, Brand is 6-7, Turner 3-4…

  9. Ted Nelson

    Frank O.: I see AR frustrating folks again  

    Not for any real reason except that people are expecting him to, IMO. Other guys have made a lot of mistakes that cost the Knicks and no one pointed it out. AR was fouled and missed a dunk that resulted in FTs and he gets crap for it.

  10. Robert Silverman

    Clyde just called Cousins, “DaMockus”. I wonder what he calls Tomlinson. “LayDoniyun?”

  11. Ted Nelson

    Spree8nyk8:
    How did you quote that from me?I never said that lol?  

    I have no idea how that happened… meant to quote the how did he miss a dunk comment

  12. Robert Silverman

    Dear Landry Fields,

    You’re like, super-cool and stuff. Do you think I’m cool too?

    Your BFF,

    Robert

  13. Ted Nelson

    Nice to see the Knicks competing even when they’re not playing their best and the other team is maybe playing its best…

  14. Kevin McElroy

    Knicks win this game by 15+.

    It’s time to start taking this Toney Douglas thing seriously. We have very quietly compiled a really well-rounded cast of young, cheap role players.

  15. Kevin McElroy

    Ted Nelson: Nice to see the Knicks competing even when they’re not playing their best and the other team is maybe playing its best…  

    Ted,

    Agree — this team is not good. We should pull away in the 3Q.

    Love when Gallo is willing to attack the rim; hugely underrated facet of his game.

  16. Kevin McElroy

    Roger Mason Jr. started on a 50 win team last year. When Azubuike is healthy, Mason will be our 12th man.

    This means 2 things:

    1) The Knicks are deep.
    2) Tim Duncan is really, really good.

  17. Ted Nelson

    Kevin McElroy: Agree — this team is not good.

    They’re not good and I agree the Knicks *should* pull away in the 2nd half, but they are promising… If they keep the right guys and add a few guys the Sixers should be good in a couple of years. And I forgot that Iggy isn’t even playing tonight.

  18. Robert Silverman

    And now the effing Jets are making me nervous. Got the Nix on the computer, the Jets on the teevee, and a huge bottle of Tums.

  19. Kevin McElroy

    Ted Nelson:
    If they keep the right guys and add a few guys the Sixers should be good in a couple of years. And I forgot that Iggy isn’t even playing tonight.  

    Agree. Turner is a player. Always forget Hawes is only 22 also — he seems like he’s been around much longer.

  20. latke

    6 1/2 minutes for randolph, zero FGAs, passed out of a lot situations where he could have forced shots. Just sayin’…

  21. Kevin McElroy

    I have one complaint: why isn’t Amare dominating teams whose front lines are either slow or straight up awful? I get the bad game in Chicago, that’s fine, and even Javale McGee is enough of a physical specimen to stay in front of him — but I want him taking over games against the Bargnanis and Haweses of the world.

  22. d-mar

    This game does remind of Knicks’ road games of the past few years, where we’d play a better team, play a pretty good first half, and find ourselves trailing because the other team decided to step up its D. Nice to be on the other side of that for a change!

  23. Frank O.

    Robert Silverman: And now the effing Jets are making me nervous. Got the Nix on the computer, the Jets on the teevee, and a huge bottle of Tums.  

    Was wondering if the Jets would have another mid-year swoon. Lost six right in the middle last year…easy also to miss the Lions, who have a pretty high-powered O

  24. Ted Nelson

    latke: 6 1/2 minutes for randolph, zero FGAs, passed out of a lot situations where he could have forced shots. Just sayin’…  

    Agree. Totally different from Friday. Made a couple of nice passes and didn’t force the issue. Active on defense and the glass. Only FGA (which didn’t count due to foul) was a break away dunk… That with the occasional shot in the half court thrown in is what we’re looking for.

  25. Robert Silverman

    Kevin McElroy: I have one complaint:why isn’t Amare dominating teams whose front lines are either slow or straight up awful?I get the bad game in Chicago, that’s fine, and even Javale McGee is enough of a physical specimen to stay in front of him — but I want him taking over games against the Bargnanis and Haweses of the world.  

    Mainly b/c Brand’s been guarding him this game, but he’s missed a bunch of really easy shots today. Just not dropping for him now

  26. Frank O.

    latke: 6 1/2 minutes for randolph, zero FGAs, passed out of a lot situations where he could have forced shots. Just sayin’…  

    As he should. No TOs in 6 minutes is a nice improvement over last game. no shots…I can live with that.

  27. Kevin McElroy

    Robert Silverman:
    Mainly b/c Brand’s been guarding him this game, but he’s missed a bunch of really easy shots today. Just not dropping for him now  

    Fine I will expand my critique to wanting him to kick Brand’s butt as well but I don’t think its as simple as bad luck on his rolls; he goes straight into defenders and forces up contested layups rather than making a second effort to either go around guys with his quickness or, in the case of bargnani, simply overpower them.

  28. Ted Nelson

    Kevin McElroy: I have one complaint:why isn’t Amare dominating teams whose front lines are either slow or straight up awful?I get the bad game in Chicago, that’s fine, and even Javale McGee is enough of a physical specimen to stay in front of him — but I want him taking over games against the Bargnanis and Haweses of the world.  

    I would say it’s in part because he’s not going 1-on-1 most of the time. He did have at least one nice 1-on-1 move to meet Brand. When he catches it at a stand still (the further out the worse it is) and holds it for a second before making his move, though, the defense is ready and he often has 4 red (in this case) jerseys around him when he gets to the hole… he’s already left his feet and what can he do? Someone is in front of him blocking the basket and guys are around him blocking the passing lanes. What he did against Washington was perfect to me. Picked his spots, scored really efficiently, and moved the ball. The Knicks have enough scorers that they don’t need 30 pts from him. He’s done some of that tonight but also a bit too much of the iso/long-J stuff for me.

  29. Ted Nelson

    Also, part of it IMO comes down to: when Amare gets the ball mid-range-to-perimeter you know what’s usually going to happen… If he shoots it, the defense will take that all day. Once the ball goes on the floor he’s going to the basket the vast majority of the time. He has no real pull-up (or at least you’ll live with that all day too if he does) and his passing ability is limited. I just don’t think he’s someone who needs to be going at the defense from a stand-still off the dribble very often. It’s not a strength.

  30. Frank O.

    Ted Nelson: Also, part of it IMO comes down to: when Amare gets the ball mid-range-to-perimeter you know what’s usually going to happen… If he shoots it, the defense will take that all day. Once the ball goes on the floor he’s going to the basket the vast majority of the time. He has no real pull-up (or at least you’ll live with that all day too if he does) and his passing ability is limited. I just don’t think he’s someone who needs to be going at the defense from a stand-still off the dribble very often. It’s not a strength.  

    He is the product of a great point guard who could get him the ball where he was best.

  31. Ted Nelson

    I would really like to see AR out there with the first unit instead of Timo for a stretch… Not criticizing Timo particularly, but I don’t think AR could be much worse and it would be a different look.

  32. rohank

    Hey spree8nyk8 – for the atdhe.net link, did you download veetle player? If so, is it safe? I usually try for the non-veetle non-vshare links on atdhe.net for internet safety reasons, but i’m out of options right now.

    How are the jets looking? I dont have them on tv in pittsburgh today either.

  33. Ted Nelson

    Frank O.: He is the product of a great point guard who could get him the ball where he was best. 

    I think he has a definitely elite skill set as a finisher and that the Knicks have a good enough passing team to get him the ball in better spots… Just need to work on it collectively. Amare also has to work on his high-post game if he wants to “create” shots for himself.

  34. Frank O.

    Ted Nelson: I would really like to see AR out there with the first unit instead of Timo for a stretch… Not criticizing Timo particularly, but I don’t think AR could be much worse and it would be a different look.  

    I have to say, Timo is running the floor well and making some nice defensive plays.
    Nice of Fields to reward Mosgov’s hustle with the alley oop.

  35. Frank O.

    Ted Nelson:
    I think he has a definitely elite skill set as a finisher and that the Knicks have a good enough passing team to get him the ball in better spots… Just need to work on it collectively. Amare also has to work on his high-post game if he wants to “create” shots for himself.  

    You’re right. He needs to expand his game. I think it was too cozy for him for all those years with Nash.

  36. Frank O.

    Love this team, pass comes down and both Fields and Amare went out to the elbow to contest the ball-handler. In years past, two guys would have looked at each other waiting for the other to act.
    These guys are playing tough and smart

  37. Spree8nyk8

    rohank: Hey spree8nyk8 – for the atdhe.net link, did you download veetle player? If so, is it safe? I usually try for the non-veetle non-vshare links on atdhe.net for internet safety reasons, but i’m out of options right now.How are the jets looking? I dont have them on tv in pittsburgh today either.  

    yeah i did, it’s safe, no malware

  38. Kevin McElroy

    @62:

    Nash is a once-in-a-generation passer and it’s not like the Knicks could expect Douglas or Felton to become what he was for Amare. But I do think this team has so many good passers on the court at any given time that if Amare is willing to move off the ball in the halfcourt he could still be just as productive.

  39. latke

    Okay this is truly surprising to me and I gain a lot of respect for D’Antoni because of it. D’Antoni has gone big against the sixers because it’s working for them defensively. This is the first time, I’ve seen him not choose offense over defense. He left Mozgov in for a little extra time, and subbed turiaf for him when he took him out. This (partially) addresses one of my main concerns about D’Antoni — adjustments to the situation. Admittedly, it’s partly because felton is in foul trouble, but he could still have used Walker.

  40. Ted Nelson

    Frank O.: I have to say, Timo is running the floor well and making some nice defensive plays.
    Nice of Fields to reward Mosgov’s hustle with the alley oop. 

    I agree, I wasn’t criticizing Timo. He also brings mass that AR just doesn’t have. And might be a better jump shooter and finisher that AR. But AR runs the floor at least as well and also makes some defensive plays… AR could also be getting some nice alley-oops and feeds on cuts with the first unit. As is, he’s on a unit where Turiaf and himself are the only real playmakers at their positions. TD, WC, and Walker are a well below average passing group at the 1-3.

    With passers like Felton, Fields, and Gallo out there and an interior presence like Amare, AR could play more to his offensive strengths as a playmaker, foul drawer, and finisher. As is he’s with a group that’s been playing a lot of 1-on-1 ball. A good defensive group, but not a very cohesive offensive group so far.

  41. Frank O.

    Kevin McElroy: @62:Nash is a once-in-a-generation passer and it’s not like the Knicks could expect Douglas or Felton to become what he was for Amare.But I do think this team has so many good passers on the court at any given time that if Amare is willing to move off the ball in the halfcourt he could still be just as productive.  

    He can be as productive, but I think great players always work to improve their games. It wouldn’t hurt him to find news ways to attack the opposition. Great players always do.
    I don’t disagree with you. I just think it would be great if he expanded his skill set…

  42. tastycakes

    Knicks have gotten jacked on a couple of calls. I don’t feel super comfortable with a 7 point lead — this is the experienced Knicks fan in me :)

    We really should kill this team, considering they are sans Iggy. Hoping we pull away by the early 4th.

    You know, I’m trying to resist the Landry Fields love-fest, but he is just a really solid all-around player.

  43. Frank O.

    Frank O.: Love Fields. Talking to his coach and to the ref trying to understand what he’s doing wrong.  

    Because he’s been getting abused by Sixers’ guards on pump fakes and touch fouls.

  44. Ted Nelson

    latke: He left Mozgov in for a little extra time, and subbed turiaf for him when he took him out. This (partially) addresses one of my main concerns about D’Antoni — adjustments to the situation.

    On the season Turiaf and Timo are combining for 38 MPG (and that’s brought down by Timo’s first game where he was a foul machine)… Not sure why you would call it an adjustment. It’s what he’s done all season.

  45. tastycakes

    Spoke too soon. Lance with the bad foul, Toney with his 5th PF, and the Knicks lose the lead.

    A real game of runs here.

  46. Ted Nelson

    Ted Nelson: I really hate this unit…  

    Not hate… Just don’t really get it. I would like to at least see Gallo or Fields out there instead of Walker. It’s a good defensive group, but in the half court offense there’s just not a lot going on with them.

  47. ess-dog

    It’s strange how everybody’s back to missing all their threes. Not watching, is the Sixer perimeter D that good? At least we’re out-rebounding them…

  48. Robert Silverman

    tastycakes: Spoke too soon.Lance with the bad foul, Toney with his 5th PF, and the Knicks lose the lead.A real game of runs here.  

    Who’s Lance?

  49. latke

    Ted Nelson:
    On the season Turiaf and Timo are combining for 38 MPG (and that’s brought down by Timo’s first game where he was a foul machine)… Not sure why you would call it an adjustment. It’s what he’s done all season.  

    The normal rotation would have been chandler for mozgov at the 5-6 minute mark, then turiaf for gallo later, followed shortly by walker for amare. Chandler didn’t play PF at all in the 3rd.

  50. Kevin McElroy

    Seems to me that one of Turiaf or Randolph should be on the court at all times to protect the rim/bang the boards. Hate Amare/Mozgov together and it has nothing to do with either of them individually.

    Turiaf will be playing with the starters by game 25…

  51. Frank O.

    Kevin McElroy: And so begins Anthony Randolph’s seduction of the Knick faithful…  

    He’ll need lots and lots of flowers, chocolates, maybe a beemer or two and then he’d need to put a bag over his head…but it’s possible.
    :)
    Too harsh?
    :)
    It’s probably not that bad.

  52. Ted Nelson

    latke,

    Last game you’re talking about 1 minute between then WC entered in the 3rd and when Turiaf entered… He’s gone with a “real” C for like 40 mpg the last few games. I think as much as anything WC just isn’t playing very well today.

  53. Frank O.

    Knicks D giving up that cross court pass for a corner 3.

    Sixers have run it about three times, hitting twice.

  54. Thomas B.

    Not used to seeing good defense from a Knick power forward, at least not over the past 5 years.

  55. Kevin McElroy

    Love Will Chandler when he can be the primary option on the court but I just think Douglas and Fields both make more sense as the 2 with the unit that’s on the court.

  56. Frank O.

    We were talking about living and dying by the 3.
    Here is a case where the Knicks need to find another way to win.
    The zone is tougher to beat without the 3.

  57. Ted Nelson

    Just because they are 3-15 they can’t abandon the 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I don’t care if they are 0-30… not more mid-range crap.

  58. Ted Nelson

    Knicks shooters have not been ready all game!!!!!!!!!! They get the ball and aren’t ready to go up with it.

  59. Thomas B.

    The Knicks do realize that the clock only had to turn back 1 hour not an entire season right?

    I will say this for Lee, he could hit his free throws.

  60. tastycakes

    Ted, you are the voice of reason.

    Still, you’ve got to beat the bottom-feeders at home. Pretty disappointed.

  61. BigBlueAL

    Pathetic game. Thats what we get for getting excited about a 2 game winning streak predicated on amazing 3pt shooting.

  62. irvin00

    Live by the 3, die by the 3.

    D’Antoni really needs to have them play simple, fundamental basketball. I blame coaching for this loss.

  63. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    3-19 on threes. Chandler should be benched if he keeps this up. He’s not a good three shooter, and he’s not going to be. It’s bad coaching. Stupid coaching.

  64. Ted Nelson

    It’s pretty inexcusable, IMO, for Wilson Chandler to take as many 3s as Bill Walker and Toney Douglas combined.

  65. d-mar

    @133 it is just one game, but when you’re trying to be a playoff team, and there’s plenty of games ahead that will be sure losses, you HAVE to win games like this.

    I think Jim Jones spiked my kool aid.

  66. BigBlueAL

    Bill Walker for some reason looked scared to shoot today, and the one WIDE OPEN 3 he took he missed.

  67. d-mar

    Tomorrow in practice, D’Antoni should have a guard dribble across the lane, stop and head fake and make every single player take turns staying on their feet.

  68. irvin00

    D’Antoni MUST be held accountable for Chandler shooting all those 3’s and Amare’s subpar performance. Inexcusable.

  69. Kevin McElroy

    Everybody take a deep breath. A loss like this cancels out a win on the road against the Bulls. It happens. It’s frustrating. 40 wins makes the playoffs in the east this year. Long season. Want to go 10-5 against the non-Boston teams in division. 1-1 right now.

    Before new personnel learns to play together, threes are an easy crutch. The other stuff should only get better as the comfort level increases.

    It’s a crappy loss but in an 82 game season you have some crappy losses.

  70. Kevin McElroy

    @Everyone complaining about Chandler taking too many threes,

    This is surprising to you? This is the same thing he’s been doing since he was a rookie. He does not hav ea good understanding of his strengths and weaknesses as an offensive player and he will continue to be maddeningly inconsistent until he figures it out.

  71. jaylamerique

    irvin00: D’Antoni MUST be held accountable for Chandler shooting all those 3?s and Amare’s subpar performance. Inexcusable.  

    wait what. why is D’Antoni responsible for Stat not playing well or chandler taking 3s. it isn’t D’antoni’s fault that Stat isnt making shots or that Chandler takes games as an opportunity to work out the kinks of his 3 point shooting.

  72. Kevin McElroy

    irvin00,

    Amare did a lot of things that kept them in the game today. Great job on the boards, set some screens, etc. Free throw shooting is an exercise in probability and that means variance and that means days like this. But he had 21 points on 18 shots with 15 rebounds and 1 turnover — not exactly a terrible game.

  73. irvin00

    How many games before the “10 new guys” excuse becomes old? How long sohuld it take a professional basketball coach to make Chandler understand his best game does not include 3-point shooting? I’m afraid it’s D’Antoni who encourages the gimmicky, losing strategy. This team is batter than it plays.

  74. Ted Nelson

    d-mar: @133 it is just one game, but when you’re trying to be a playoff team, and there’s plenty of games ahead that will be sure losses, you HAVE to win games like this.

    I don’t think there are any sure losses. They can compete with any team when their shots are falling (in large part because their defense is solid this season).

    This loss was no worse to me than the Portland loss. Pretty similar, really. (I know people will go off about how great Portland is, but Elton Brand looked like his old self today and the Sixers have a lot of athletes and basketball players… I don’t think they’ll be a total bottom feeder all season.)

    It was just an unfortunate series of events… Down the stretch the Sixers turned it up and made their shots. And the Knicks missed their shots. Plus they went in stretches of “all we’re doing is mid-range pull ups” then “all we’re doing is 3s” then “all we’re doing is feeding Amare down low”… How about playing a coherent offense and mixing it up a little? The adjustments to the zone are just awful.

  75. Ted Nelson

    Owen: Tough loss. Should have won that one. I don’t know why Fields comes off the court…  

    Only guy who doesn’t stand around for the most part… I was also yearning for Fields when the Knicks were just standing around down the stretch. He’s so active and plays so smart…

  76. irvin00

    @ Kevin

    I agree that amare’s performance today was not terrible. I used the word “subpar” referring to Amare’s average play during the 5 season games so far. He needs to do better than that. He needs to play more intelligent than that.

  77. Kevin McElroy

    irvin00: How many games before the “10 new guys” excuse becomes old?   

    I dunno but it’s more than 6

    irvin00: How long sohuld it take a professional basketball coach to make Chandler understand his best game does not include 3-point shooting?   

    I have been as critical of Chandler’s shot selection as anyone to the point that I have been shouted down repeatedly. Obviously not gonna depart from you there.

    irvin00: This team is batter than it plays.  

    Really? There are two rookies in the starting lineup, they don’t have a true center, and it’s unclear whether they are capable of patching together 48 minutes of solid defense. Despite this, they have the 5th best point differential in the east even though they’ve already played @BOS, @CHI, and vsPOR. Should they really be better than that?

  78. Ted Nelson

    I don’t know if the Knicks did, but I certainly think people on this thread slept on and continue to sleep on the Sixers due to their 1-5 record… Jrue Holiday had a strong rookie season. Evan Turner was the #2 pick. Brand is a former All-NBA player on a max deal who may finally be healthy. Lou Williams can score with any guard in the NBA. They also have solid depth from guys like Young, Nocioni, Hawes, Speights… They’re very athletic. And then there’s Iggy. This is not a 1-5 team. This is not a 20 win team. This team has the talent to finish in the mid-30s win-wise on the season. I feel like people were looking at a 1-5 team and thinking we were playing last season’s Nets or something…

  79. irvin00

    @Kevin

    “Really? There are two rookies in the starting lineup, they don’t have a true center, and it’s unclear whether they are capable of patching together 48 minutes of solid defense. Despite this, they have the 5th best point differential in the east even though they’ve already played @BOS, @CHI, and vsPOR. Should they really be better than that?”

    We have seen this movie before, haven’t we? The Knicks play a couploe of good games against good teams only to play terribly for the next three against bad teams. who’s to blame for the inconsistency? The “10 new guys”? The “it’s only 5 games”?.

    I’m afraid the real cuplrit is a coach who relies (and probably encourages) on a fundamentally unsound strategy that forces a system on a group of players, instead of developing a system that fits the available talent. Gallo has a nice performance every seven games and people immediately forget he disappears in most 4th quarters and remains glued to the same spot beyond the 3-point arch instead of moving around creating openinigs. After 3 years in the League…

    If Chandler’s 3-point farce doesn’t stop, it can only mean one of two things:

    1. D’Antoni encourages the behavior, or
    2. D’Antoni has no input on Chandler’s play.

    But i guess it is the “10 new guys” fault…

  80. BigBlueAL

    OK Ive calm down now after watching that horrible final 15 minutes of the game.

    For as much as we all love TD he really hasnt come close to becoming anything resembling a PG yet. He still has no court vision whatsoever. Felton looked like he was struggling physically today and shot horrible but did still have 10 asts and 8 rebs plus while he was in foul trouble at least he wasnt one of the idiots being suckered into fouling off the pump fakes lol.

    The Knicks can not lose home games like this too much more this season (having an actual homecourt advantage would be nice too) but in reality as long as they stay at or around .500 for the first couple of months they should be fine because I hope/assume that this team will play better as the season moves along and they head into the final couple of months of the season.

  81. Ted Nelson

    At the same time, if the Knicks are 40% from 3 and the Sixers are 17%… the shoe is on the other foot.

    I blame that on a bunch of things… Luck. Shooters not being ready: I can think of at least 5 times a good shooter gets the ball and isn’t ready to go up with it. Seeming to decide in the 4th that they would take no 3s for a while, then suddenly deciding they would take only 3s. Maybe they only lose worse, but I would have liked them to stick with the 3 more even if it wasn’t falling. They got hesitant. A few misses will even out over time. Not staying with/closing out on Sixers shooters. Luck. Luck. And luck.

    You can look at FT% as a problem. It was. But no team is going to shoot 100%. That’s not sustainable. And even if the Knicks do shoot 100% from the FT line… the game is only tied. Ultimately the Knicks win this game if they make a few more 3s (and maybe if they take a few more, but maybe not…).

  82. Z-man

    I am concerned that Turiaf is “fool’s gold.” He made several bonehead plays down the stretch in this game and vs. Portland. He touches the ball too much in situations where we need offense. I undertand he blocks shots, but if he is going to commit dumb fouls and turnovers in critical situations, we don’t need him out there.

    That said, give the Sixers credit, they really executed well on both ends and would have beaten a lot of teams playing the way they did. When Battie hit those two jumbers, I had a bad feeling.

  83. Ted Nelson

    irvin00: If Chandler’s 3-point farce doesn’t stop, it can only mean one of two things:

    1. D’Antoni encourages the behavior, or
    2. D’Antoni has no input on Chandler’s play.

    Even if WC doesn’t take the 3 3pers he misses and the Knicks get 3 pts on each of those possessions… they still lose the game. That’s not the reason they lost.

  84. Kevin McElroy

    @164-

    Irvin, I dig the frustration but they also played Boston and Portland down to the last possession, beat the bulls on the road, and smoked Washington at home, the way they should smoke a bad team at home. They are 6 games into the year and have 2 forgivable losses, 1 really good win, 2 wins they should have won, and 1 bad loss. 2-1 as favorites, 1-2 as underdogs. Just nowhere near worthy of panicking unless you really thought this was a 48 win team before today, in which case I have a bridge to sell you.

  85. irvin00

    @Ted
    ” I feel like people were looking at a 1-5 team and thinking we were playing last season’s Nets or something…”

    It’s not that they lost – it’s the way they played. At least for me. Relying on 3-point shooting is a major mistake that continues to be made by the Knicks game after game under D’Antoni. Why? The first year, we were beginning the rebuilding – last year we were just waiting for Lebron while shedding more salary. This year it will be ‘the 10 new guys’. The only constant is the funky strategy and the correspondingly frustrating bad results. Who is responsible for that? I don’t expect the Knicks to be an elite team, but they should be more consistent and sound in their performance. That’s all I expect.

  86. Kevin McElroy

    Also you’re preaching to the choir on Chandler’s shot selection and D’Antoni’s (at least partial) culpability in that regard. For me it’s not even completely about how average his perimeter shooting is; it’s how great he is at the rim. Last year his efg% was .395 on jumpers and .639 from “close,” which doesn’t even include dunks. Just a ton of points left on the table every time he has a guy one on one and settles for the jumper.

    But again, this didn’t become news today. And I don’t want to hear it from people on days when he’s hot from downtown because the collateral damage is 3 times more days like this.

  87. nicos

    A bunch of Chandler’s 3’s came against the zone- pretty much all open looks that he’s getting dared to take. Against the zone they were getting either an open three for Chandler or a force on the drive by Douglas/Felton/Amare- neither are great options though I guess with the drive you at least have a shot at getting to the line. Going zone makes sense when both Chandler and Turiaf are on the floor- you take away Stat, shade towards Gallo and Douglas on the perimeter and force Chandler to be the one to shoot over the top- D’Antoni has to recognize this and adjust the line-up accordingly. They’re going to have to do something because given the success that both Philly and Portland had they’re going to be seeing that zone a lot. One thing they need to do is set more back screens for Gallo and get him moving rather than just standing in one place- ideally you’d like to see Gallo work harder to get himself open but moving without the ball hasn’t been his strong suit so it’s up to D’Antoni to figure out a way to make sure Gallo is the one shooting over the zone.

    I thought those two bad fouls by Fields really hurt- they were at a point where the Knicks could have stretched the lead but instead keep Philly in the game.

    About the only real positive was that Felton ran the break very well.

  88. irvin00

    @Ted Nelson:

    “Even if WC doesn’t take the 3 3pers he misses and the Knicks get 3 pts on each of those possessions… they still lose the game. That’s not the reason they lost. ”

    C’mon, Ted, you should exhibit a bit more intellectual integrity. Do not create strawmen arguments. I never said the Knicks lost this game because of Chandler missing his 3’s. I said it is fundamentally wrong to allow or encourage Chandler to shoot all those three’s.

  89. Kevin McElroy

    To those complaining about the quantity of threes:

    Knicks overall TS% is 54.9%, 13th in the NBA
    Knicks FG% at rim is 70.2%, 2nd in the NBA and they take the 16th most shots from that range
    Knicks FG% inside 10 ft is 43.3%, 21st in the NBA and they take the 15th most shots from that range
    Knicks FG% from 10-15 ft is 33.3%, 24th in the NBA and they take the 26th most shots from that range
    Knicks FG% from 16-23 ft is 30.6%, 29th in the NBA and they take the 25th most shots from that range
    Knicks eFG% on three pointers is 58.0%, 6th in the NBA and they take the 2nd most shots from that range

    Basically the Knicks do a really good job on threes and at the rim. They take a lot of shots from three which is good because their eFG% on threes is better than their overall TS%. It’s true that they don’t get to the rim enough relative to how successful they are there; although the marginal attempts at the rim would likely bring down their overall percentage, they would certainly be higher percentage shots than anything from the mid-range.

    The bottom line, though, is that the Knicks have personnel that are good at shooting threes and finishing at the rim and — if they are going to be successful — that’s where they should be shooting from and, for the most part, it has been thus far.

  90. Ted Nelson

    irvin00: It’s not that they lost – it’s the way they played.

    A lot of people have been talking about how the Knicks need to beat bad teams and bottom of the barrel teams… The Sixers were 1-5 coming into game, but they’ve got some talent.

    irvin00: Relying on 3-point shooting is a major mistake that continues to be made by the Knicks game after game under D’Antoni.

    Every team is going to win most games where they shoot 50, 60% from 3 and lose most games there they shoot 15% from 3. That’s not a D’Antoni thing. That’s a basketball team.
    When you have 4 or 5 40% 3pt shooters on your team, you absolutely should be taking 3s. Hitting 40% of your 3s is a TS% of 60%… I don’t know what you’re talking about. Do they need to get better in other ways? Sure. Are they going to lose when they shoot 15% from 3 and hesitate to take open 3s? Yes.

    irvin00: The only constant is the funky strategy and the correspondingly frustrating bad results.

    They are 3-3… What bad results are you talking about?

    irvin00: C’mon, Ted, you should exhibit a bit more intellectual integrity. Do not create strawmen arguments. I never said the Knicks lost this game because of Chandler missing his 3?s. I said it is fundamentally wrong to allow or encourage Chandler to shoot all those three’s.  

    I have gone out and said he can’t take as many 3s as Walker and Douglas combined. Read the comments.
    However, you are harping on it like it’s the reason the Knicks lost or it’s the end of the freaking world. That’s not why they lost. It’s part of it, but you’re talking about how D’Antoni needs to be “held accountable” for WC’s 3s… About the only way you hold a coach accountable is to fire him… That’s pretty dramatic. I’ve been fairly critical of D’Antoni over his time here, but I try to be fair and rational.

  91. hoolahoop

    irvin00: It’s not that they lost – it’s the way they played…… The first year, we were beginning the rebuilding – last year we were just waiting for Lebron while shedding more salary. This year it will be ‘the 10 new guys’. The only constant is the funky strategy and the correspondingly frustrating bad results. Who is responsible for that? I don’t expect the Knicks to be an elite team, but they should be more consistent and sound in their performance. That’s all I expect.

    You’re right. Every year it’s a new excuse. This year’s alibi for sucking is going to be that they are a new team and we need tol get another big free agent. Next year will be another excuse, then another the following year. Let’s be honest, this is a poorly run organization.
    Also, I think I’ve had enough of the D’antoni koolaid. I thought he was a great signing when he came here. I have not blamed him for the knicks poor play. I think I’ve had enough. I”m beginning to hink his offensive genius can be described in two words: Steve Nash.

    A lot of fans don’t like to hear this. They just want to keep fooling themselves that the team is really good, but. (fill-in-th-blank). Every team is as good or bad as their record.

    The good news is that the Knicks have been competitive in every game so far this season. Not a single blowout yet. That’s very positive because you can review the game and pinpoint where it was lost. When you get blown out it’s disheartening, but worse, it’s difficult to determine what steps to take to turn L’s to W’s.

    As has been said by many posters in this forum in different ways, the Knicks need to move the ball better, move without the ball better, and most importantly, take better shots.
    I play a game with myself when I watch the games. As soon as the ball is released by the shooter i guess whether it’s going in the basket or not. I’m right about 90% of the time (vs. about 50% of all shots that made). All you have to do is look at the quality of shot selection. Off balanced, rushed, heavily defended shot’s have a much lower chance of going in than what we all know to be “good” shot’s. Not coincidentally, the elite teams are taking much better shot’s.

  92. Kevin McElroy

    hoolahoop:
    Every team is as good or bad as their record.  

    Best point in your entire post. The Knicks are 3-3 against a slightly above average schedule thus far. This means they are probably a slightly better than .500 team. Did you REALLY expect more than this from a team that won 30 last year?

    Being critical of the team is necessary and encouraged when done within reasonable standards but are we seriously going to be pissed that they’re not a 50 win team in their first year of trying to compete? We’re a likely playoff team despite a 10-man rotation which includes only 3 players (Felton, Turiaf, Amare) who are older than 24 (and none of them are 30). We have plenty of trade chips and a bunch of big name soon-to-be free agents who have expressed interest in coming here. We have cap room after this season. We turned the 30th pick in last years draft and the 40-something-th pick in this year’s draft into Toney Douglas and Landry Fields. 2 years ago we were capped out beyond belief, Isiah was running the show, lots of the primary players were old, nobody wanted to come play here, and the people who WERE here wanted out.

    But yeah, the front office that engineered that transformation has “run the team poorly” and screw D’Antoni because it looks like we’ll “only” improve by 10-12 games this year. AFTER SIX GAMES.

    Apologize for the snark but, again, we have played 6 games and any reasonable observer would have had us as favorites in 3 and underogs in 3. We’re 2-1 as favorites and 1-2 as underdogs. The level of panic on this comment board is really surprising to me.

  93. irvin00

    @hoolahoop (76)

    “I think I’ve had enough of the D’antoni koolaid. I thought he was a great signing when he came here. I have not blamed him for the knicks poor play. I think I’ve had enough. I”m beginning to hink his offensive genius can be described in two words: Steve Nash.”

    Absolutely true. Unfortunately, many fans forget the many broken promises. A good example: when the Knicks signed D’Antoni, it was widely reported that he was a free agent magnet. He was a player’s coach. All free agents to-be wanted to play for him, etc., etc.

    When the Lebron fiasco developed, how come the Knicks didn’t use D’Antoni to attract any free agents? It was so pathetic that the Knicks sent Isiah Thomas – of all people – to try to talk to Lebron into coming to NY. Antoni did not attract (and has not attracted to this day) any top talent. Let’s not forget that the only reason Amare is in NY is that no other team was going to give him 100 millions over 5 years. Steve Kerr said it best: chances are the Knicks willl only get 2 good years out of amare – then it is back to Allan Houston territory.

    D’Antoni has coached two straight seasons of 30-win basketball – hell, Dolan himself wouldn’t have done much worse. Isaiah’s record was not much worse, either.

    Is there anything exceptional that D’Antoni has done for the Knicks during his tenure? I don’t see it. I only see a team gambling that the threes are going in.

    And yes, I know, i know: there is “ten new guys” and the season is only “six games old”.

    My apologies to every one of you, guys, for the negativity, but I have had enough of D’Antoni’s “31 Wins or Less” system!

    ;-)

  94. Ted Nelson

    hoolahoop: This year’s alibi for sucking is going to be that they are a new team and we need tol get another big free agent.

    3-3 can’t really be described as sucking.

    hoolahoop: The good news is that the Knicks have been competitive in every game so far this season.

    First you say they suck, now you say they are competitive in every game… See why it’s pretty tough to take your posts at all serious?

    irvin00: D’Antoni has coached two straight seasons of 30-win basketball

    You ever think that maybe the quality of players on the team has something to do with how many games the teams win? Ever just wonder if the talent of the players on each team has something to do with the outcome of games? Ever wonder why the bad teams always have the bad players and the good teams always have the good players? Could just be a coincidence…
    You really think Doc Rivers is such a great coach, for example, that he made KG, Pierce, and Allen into All-NBA players a decade before even coaching them?

  95. Nick C.

    OMG…I cannot believe the post game comments. 6 games in one loss, the first all season, to a team that isn’t predicted to win >50 games??? Really???? Miami already has lost 2 games. 4-1 GS lost to 1-5 Det last night. Criticize WCs shot selection, fine, but you could do that in about 50 more games this year. A bigger issue is the offense against the zone.

  96. irvin00

    @Ted

    “You ever think that maybe the quality of players on the team has something to do with how many games the teams win?”

    Sure. I also know that a coach that imposes his flawed system on a group of players is going to make them into under-achievers. That’s the case with D’Antoni after 2 seasons of 30-win basketball.

    What has D’Antoni really done that is exceptional? Nothing.

    What has he done that could have been improved?

    1. Not emphasizing players’ strenghts, while implementing a “shoot a three at the first opportunity” system that will fail miserably most of the time.
    2. Destroying team chemistry by playing favorites (Duhon was beyond reproach and Milicic never got a decent chance. Robinson’s benching was nasty. Marbury was treated unfairly, even though he is a total ass and a real disruption on any team; but D’Antoni should not have played him during the pre-season – old story).

    3. Not instilling player discipline: why is Chandler still taking those 3’s? Why is Gallo still immovilized beyond the 3-point arch instead of moving and creating opportunities?

    4. Not playing a semblance of defense the whole time. Why couldn’t he play defense for the past two seasons? I know the answer, though: because he believes shooting 3’s is the only and best way to outscore the opponent.

    I could go on and on, but the bottom line is this: yes, D’Antoni has NOT been given an elite team at any point during his tenure. But he was not given a 30-win team either. He has undeachieved the same way Riley overachieved with the Ewing, Oakly, Mason, Starks bunch…(ironically, the 3’s cost Riley his best chance at a championship when he allowed Starks to pull a D’Antoni on him).

    The Knicks need a coach that can take them to the next level. D’Antoni is not that person, I’m afraid…but it’s “ten new guys” and the season is “only six games old, for god’s sake!” (add irritated tone, please).

    :-)

  97. Nick C.

    Yes yes yes. I hope you weren’t one of those people calling for Tom Coughlin to be replaced by Bill Cowher after week 3. Look D’Antoni is no super genius but considering last years team and the year before were built to tank so to speak in the all-consuming quest to clear cap space for LeBron. By the way are we still griping about Amare constantly getting the ball at the free throw line extended??? If we are I haven’t noticed because someone made the adjustment after a few games.

  98. Ted Nelson

    irvin00: But he was not given a 30-win team either.

    You realize Al Harrington was their 2nd best player last season, right? That was definitely a 30 win team. This season’s talent does not look like a 30 win team. Guess what? Through 6 games they are not on a 30 win pace. They are on a 41 win pace. If you go back to the predictions article on this site or check out more pre-season predictions from any news outlet, you will see that 41 wins (.500 probably 8th seed or right around there) was the consensus prediction for this team.

    You definitely come across as one of those reactionary fans who wanted Coughlin fired. Who thought Landry Fields was a terrible pick, and generally criticizes picks based on the media reaction even if you’ve never seen them play (JPP and Cito Culver are other recent NY area examples).

    Has D’Antoni done a great job with the Knicks? No. Is it premature to say he’s done a bad job? Yes.

    irvin00: He has undeachieved the same way Riley overachieved with the Ewing, Oakly, Mason, Starks bunch…

    Do you follow basketball at all? That was the best defensive team of all time in a defense-first era. They played great D and mediocre O. The results were totally in-line with the talent. You don’t have to score super efficiently if you defend super well. I would highly recommend picking up a copy of Basketball on Paper by Dean Oliver. That was recommended to me when I came to this site telling people they were crazy to look at stats a few years ago. Totally changed by whole perception on the game of basketball.

    irvin00: Why is Gallo still immovilized beyond the 3-point arch instead of moving and creating opportunities?

    Do you watch Knicks games? Gallo has been doing a much better job of penetrating and getting to the hole this season.

    irvin00: Not playing a semblance of defense the whole time

    Again, do you watch the Knicks? Their defense is carrying them right now. They are much improved. Why? Because their defensive talent is much improved. David Lee and Al Harrington was their frontcourt last season. David Lee and Al Harrington. Those are not defenders. Through 6 games the Knicks have the 8th best defense in the league. You have no credibility when you go against facts, and are pretty much 100% troll.

    irvin00: it’s “ten new guys” and the season is “only six games old, for god’s sake!”

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Knicks are 3-3. 3-3. .500. This is exactly where we all expected them to be. Are you really that dense?

  99. irvin00

    @Ted Nelson

    Calling me a troll (and other personal insults) because I don’t buy into your irrational rants is not fair. But that’s you: a neurotic, most likely unemployed fanatic living with his mother who easily becomes upset when people can see through the endless rants and little debating tricks (strawman specialist).

    Pathetic.

  100. stratomatic

    Current thought on the Knicks.

    1. Live by the 3, die by the 3.

    I have a theory that a team like the Knicks should shoot more 3s against better teams and fewer against worse teams. Shooting a lot of 3s adds volatility to your results. Volatility is a good thing when you are playing a team better that yourself because you might get lucky and shoot above average and win. If not, you probably would have lost anyway. It’s not so good when you are playing the Sixers. It’s not like they shot a tremendous # of 3s yesterday, but clearly it was bad outside shooting from Felton, Chandler, and Douglas that hurt the most.

    2. Either Chandler is a total moron (and I say that so harshly out of love and hope for better), D’Antoni is a moron, or both are morons. It can’t be more obvious at this point that this kid can’t shoot from outside 15 feet and is hurting the team when he does. He has to be reigned in. I’ll hold the coaching staff responsible if it doesn’t happen soon because we KNOW he can play with restraint. He did it last year.

    3. Mozgov has been impressive in some ways, but overall I don’t think he’s ready or good enough. I’m a very big believer in the value of good rebounding. I think it almost has to be a primary quality of your C unless you have some combination of other players that far exceeds the norms for their position. We are holding our own overall, but we need more from him. Amare is an average rebounder for a PF at best and Gallo is nothing special at SF either. Fields is helping a lot, Chandler has been better when he’s on the court, and others are having good nights here or there, but we need 9-10 boards per 36 from our C. If not now, eventually.

  101. Z

    stratomatic:
    1. Live by the 3, die by the 3.  

    Last year, in the preview portion of the season, some one posted (I think it was either Kevin M or David C) that the Knicks should (arbitrarily) win 27 games due to hot 3 point shooting and lose 27 games due to cold 3 point shooting. The other 28 games would need to be won in the trenches.

    I have no idea whether much stock can be put into this theory, but it seems, a priori, to make some sense. And looking at last year, the Knicks won 28 games, indicating that they went 1-27 in the games their 3 point shooting didn’t carry them.

    If they can improve to .500 in those games they’ll win 42 games this year.

    (Those are, by the way, the 14 games Amar’e wins single-handedly by being a beast in the paint :)

  102. stratomatic

    Z,

    I agree.

    I think a key for this team is going to be finding a way to score more consistently in the paint if the other team is scoring and they aren’t getting many easy baskets in transition .

    Once it gets to a half court set (especially against a zone), they tend fire away from outside. If those shots aren’t dropping they are capable of losing to anyone.

  103. Ted Nelson

    irvin00: a neurotic, most likely unemployed fanatic living with his mother who easily becomes upset when people can see through the endless rants and little debating tricks (strawman specialist).

    I am irrational and making baseless personal insults? You don’t know anything about me. I am gainfully employed and like 450 miles away from my mother. I have not made any assumptions about you personally, I have based my comments entirely on the content of your comments.

    Think about what a troll is and then read your comments. You make baseless claims that often stand in direct opposition to verifiable, indisputable facts. You insult people personally when it is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

    I will no longer address your comments, please feel free to do the same.

  104. Ted Nelson

    stratomatic: but clearly it was bad outside shooting from Felton, Chandler, and Douglas that hurt the most.

    On the flip side, you could also argue that if they had taken more 3s their luck would have evened out. They stayed away from the 3s for long stretches, and away from their good shooters (towards WC) for others. You have to take some perimeter shots, especially against a packed-in zone, and I would rather those be good looks from 3 than mid-range shots.

    stratomatic: We are holding our own overall, but we need more from him.

    I think you directly contradict your earlier point here. You say that if the rest of your players counteract your C it’s ok. The rest of the Knicks are counteracting Timo, but you say it’s not ok.

    stratomatic: but we need 9-10 boards per 36 from our C

    Says who? What’s your justification for this statement? I can say “we need 30 pts per 36 from our SG” and not back it up with any reasoning as well…

    Z: (Those are, by the way, the 14 games Amar’e wins single-handedly by being a beast in the paint :)  

    I know you’re sort of joking, but I think that attitude/rational is exactly what’s been hurting the Knicks. They need to play like a team on every possession. Get good shots on every possession. Not stand around like statues launching 3s while Amare tries to win by himself inside. This has been an awful strategy to date when employed, and the possessions where they’ve worked as a team to find shots have gone a lot better IMO.

  105. irvin00

    @Ted (188)

    “Think about what a troll is and then read your comments”

    More insults, but that’s expected of you, as several other posters have mentioned in other threads.

    Once gain, you lie in your post, Ted. why is it you can’t deal with the truth? Why is it you can’t argue in an honest manner, without creating strawman arguments?

    “You make baseless claims that often stand in direct opposition to verifiable, indisputable facts.”

    Nope. I have been very clear in explaining my issue with the way D’Antoni runs the team. You may disagree with me, but my arguments are valid.

    “You insult people personally when it is irrelevant to the topic at hand. ”

    Once again, you lie. I have disagreed with other posters, but I have not insulted anyone.

    “I will no longer address your comments, please feel free to do the same.”

    Thanks! No need to worry anymore about the self-appointed pseudo-guru spouting nonsense on every thread. Hope you’re man enough to deliver as promised…but i doubt it.

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