Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Sunday, October 26, 2014

2011 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Mavericks

For your game thoughts.

203 comments on “2011 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Mavericks

  1. larrondo

    atdhe.net is down– says the domain has been seized by Homeland Security Investigations.

    Was there another site?

  2. BigBlueAL

    larrondo: atdhe.net is down– says the domain has been seized by Homeland Security Investigations.
    Was there another site?  

    I believe they have a new address, atdhenet.tv

  3. Kikuchiyo

    larrondo, check out the Deadspin article for alternatives.

    BTW, I only use these sites because I live in no man’s land: I cannot get Knicks games on League Pass since I live too close to NYC, but I don’t live close enough to have a cable company that broadcasts MSG. Weird.

  4. BigBlueAL

    This Mavs starting lineup is pretty much pathetic offensively yet they have 17 points already. Typical pathetic Knicks 1st half defense.

  5. Brian Cronin

    I’d have a lot less of a problem on the open threes if they came from Dirk drawing the double. But he isn’t – they’re just clogging the middle for seemingly no reason.

  6. Kevin McElroy

    Top 5 best names as pronounced by MSG’s PA announcer:

    5 – Charlie Ward (Slow Build: charrrrr-LEEEEEEEE WAAAAAAAAAAAARD)
    4 – Patrick Ewing (All Business: Pat (beat) Trick (beat) EWING (all one syllable))
    3 – Al Harrington (quasi-Oprah impression: Al HARring-TON)
    2 – Danilo Gallinari (poetry: Danillooooo GALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL-in-NARRRRRRRRI)
    1- Latrell Sprewell (the explosion: LatrellllllSPREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-well)

  7. BigBlueAL

    Kevin McElroy: Top 5 best names as pronounced by MSG’s PA announcer:5 – Charlie Ward (Slow Build: charrrrr-LEEEEEEEE WAAAAAAAAAAAARD)
    4 – Patrick Ewing (All Business: Pat (beat) Trick (beat) EWING (all one syllable))
    3 – Al Harrington (quasi-Oprah impression: Al HARring-TON)
    2 – Danilo Gallinari (poetry: Danillooooo GALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL-in-NARRRRRRRRI)
    1- Latrell Sprewell (the explosion: LatrellllllSPREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-well)  

    Best is still by far the way he pronounced Patrick Ewing.

  8. JoMo

    Im a few plays late, but it kills me that no one else on this board has recognized Gallo’s propensity for a drive and dunk, virtually EVERY first quarter of I would say the last 15 or so games.

  9. Thomas B.

    Who is this new guy we picked up? The tall white guy who keeps driving to the bucket. Who is he? Waiver wire? Was there a trade I missed?

  10. rohank

    Gallo looking aggressive!

    To avoid any confusion later, here’s what Mozgov’s done so far (plz add if i missed anything).

    In 2 minutes:
    Good clearout on D
    Screen on O that frees felton for a 3
    Alters 2 shots in one possession (Terry and Haywood).
    Alley-Oop Dunk.

    Not too shabby!
    yet the box score reads: 1-1.0-0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2 (exaggerating a bit)

  11. JoMo

    Unless he’s spotting up from the corners or has an open lane, I feel like shawne williams has never converted a mid-range jumper. They’re usually good looks, but he just doesn’t look comfortable shooting it – especially off the dribble.

  12. Brian Cronin

    Brian, its the Unit!!

    Let’s just hope that Moz replacing Turiaf helps. So far, not so good.

  13. Brian Cronin

    D’Antoni is smartly realizing he has to keep one of Amar’e and Gallo on the floor at all times.

  14. Brian Cronin

    Haywood, what are you doing hand checking Fields there? That is benchable behavior right there.

  15. Brian Cronin

    What’s crazy is that D’Antoni keeps using the Unit, even after it fails over and over and over and over again.

  16. DS

    I went to college with Barea and I remember him having a harder time against Brown University’s defense in 2003 than he’s having tonight.

  17. BigBlueAL

    Thomas B.:
    Yep. Trying to anyway.  

    Ive been tempted to by League Pass via broadband and the MLB package through MLB.TV instead and save money but I just dont trust the streaming quality.

  18. Thomas B.

    BigBlueAL:
    Ive been tempted to by League Pass via broadband and the MLB package through MLB.TV instead and save money but I just dont trust the streaming quality.  

    normally flawless, but this evening spotty.

  19. Brian Cronin

    Does STAT look less explosive over the last few games to anyone else?

    He’s playing hurt, so that would make sense.

  20. Brian Cronin

    That might have been Felton’s worst FGA of the season.

    Right?

    Add Gallo’s stupid behind the back dribble and that was not the best looking pair o’ possessions for these Knicks.

  21. Brian Cronin

    Gallo turnover because he knew he wouldn’t get it back if he passed.

    I disagree on that particular play. That I think was just a stupid play on his part. Earlier, though, the rushed shot near the basket did seem to be sort of like that. Like, “Wait, you actually gave me the ball? Oh shit, I was not prepared, I better shoot even though I’m not set.”

  22. Brian Cronin

    It wasn’t that bad, in the sense that they’re only down four to a good Dallas team, but yeah, it got ugly at times. Especially the Unit.

  23. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin: It wasn’t that bad, in the sense that they’re only down four to a good Dallas team, but yeah, it got ugly at times. Especially the Unit.  

    Correction. Bad 2nd quarter for the Knicks.

  24. Brian Cronin

    Bad 2nd quarter for the Knicks.

    Yeah. Especially the opening, where they gave the lead up practically instantaneously.

  25. latke

    2 missed open threes, one missed dunk, one missed highly makable 4 footer. The thing is, even if we make 3/4 of those, we’re still down 8. The problem is the DEFENSE.

  26. BigBlueAL

    Amar’e has come out in the 2nd half looking like he cant move. Knee mustve really stiffened up during half-time.

  27. Brian Cronin

    Amar’e has come out in the 2nd half looking like he cant move. Knee mustve really stiffened up during half-time.

    Quite possible. If so, though, why keep him in there? He’s not helping them if he can’t do anything.

  28. Brian Cronin

    Amar’e bricks a 17-foot jumper.

    Next possession – Ama’re bricks a 17-foot jumper.

    This is madness!

  29. TheXman

    lol i thought we were supposed to be good against the western conference? just empty out the bench dear god

  30. Brian Cronin

    Dallas really loves playing in MSG, I see.

    And yeah, please, just put AR in there. This game is over. Give him a full quarter to see what he can do.

  31. latke

    Brian Cronin:
    Quite possible. If so, though, why keep him in there? He’s not helping them if he can’t do anything.  

    Entirely possible that they pull him. Thing is, if they do, and the knicks make some sort of comeback, will MDA be stubborn enough to try to bring him back in again?

  32. Brian Cronin

    If the question begins with “will/is D’antoni stubborn enough…” the answer will invariably be “yes.” ;)

  33. BigBlueAL

    Whatever happens tonight, lets just pray to God the Knicks dont get swept this weekend by the Sixers.

  34. Brian Cronin

    Whatever happens tonight, lets just pray to God the Knicks dont get swept this weekend by the Sixers.

    If that ever happened, it would mean the return of our friend.

  35. jon abbey

    Spree8nyk8: Does STAT look less explosive over the last few games to anyone else?  

    awesome to ask this just as he is in the midst of scoring 47 points in consecutive halves (26-second half against Detroit, 21-first half tonight).

  36. TheXman

    gallo is seriously an expert in getting fouled on the 3, is there some start that shows he’s the leader?

  37. Spree8nyk8

    jon abbey:
    awesome to ask this just as he is in the midst of scoring 47 points in consecutive halves (26-second half against Detroit, 21-first half tonight).  

    Has nothing to do with him scoring. I’m just noticing a lack of spring lately

  38. Thomas B.

    I know this is trollish of me to say, but I really did not expect the Knicks to beat the Mavericks. Not with the awful PG play we get from Felton and TD. As Felton hits a shot, nice timing to complain I know.

  39. BigBlueAL

    Yeah, losing at home to the Mavs is nothing to complain about. But after that 1st quarter and how horrible they have played since its more frustrating to handle.

  40. TheXman

    Thomas B.: I know this is trollish of me to say, but I really did not expect the Knicks to beat the Mavericks. Not with the awful PG play we get from Felton and TD.As Felton hits a shot, nice timing to complain I know.  

    TD’s had a pretty good effort tonight tho

  41. art vandelay

    by far the worst game of the season for Fields as far as I am concerned….I think this is roughly what we will see from this team the rest of the season….win 1, lose 1….pretty much a .500 team

  42. Nick C.

    Thomas B.: I know this is trollish of me to say, but I really did not expect the Knicks to beat the Mavericks. Not with the awful PG play we get from Felton and TD.As Felton hits a shot, nice timing to complain I know.  I’m not sure fact stating is trolling.

  43. Spree8nyk8

    Thomas I really can’t understand making a generalized statement against Felton. He’s played fantastic this year.

  44. BigBlueAL

    He played fantastic in December. His overall numbers for the season are almost identical to last season in Charlotte which is mediocre at best.

  45. BigBlueAL

    Everyone get horny, AR is checking into the game for the final 3 minutes. Cue the overreaction for how good he is after he grabs his 1st rebound.

  46. TheXman

    BigBlueAL: Everyone get horny, AR is checking into the game for the final 3 minutes.Cue the overreaction for how good he is after he grabs his 1st rebound.  

    hah great jumper by

  47. BigBlueAL

    Randolph hits a 3pter after missing a layup!! Start him next game!!

    OK I will stop now, tough night for the Knicks. Big games vs Philly this weekend, lets just not lose both is all I ask.

  48. TheXman

    erobes: Am I the only one who wanrs Rautins to do well?He’s such a good teammate on the bench.  

    seemed to be pretty active there on D, that was nice to see. He seems too small/skinny out there.

  49. Thomas B.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AqG1bW3sj180hQypL2SseJq8vLYF?slug=aw-knickswalsh020211

    The Dolan Thomas bashing is so old that by now it’s just boring. I’m sick of it. Dolan hasnt done anything wrong in two years, sure the best thing he has done is shut up and get out of the way, but it is odd to write that he is causing stress in the organization by not picking up an option that wont expire until 45 days after the trade deadline.
    Sheesh.
    Maybe just maybe he wants to evaluate what moves are made by the trade deadline? Is it fair to evaluate at that time? I mean when he rushed the Thomas extension, he has killed. Now he doesnt rush and still gets killed.
    Yes, the knicks are way better, but lets not paint everything DW did as wonderful.
    Donnie blew the 2009 draft big time. Picking a forward that didnt have enough upside to be included in a trade with Jeffries without adding the sweetener of an additional draft pick. He totally over paid to move JJ.
    Donnie hasnt brought in a decent shooting guard since expecting Fields since he arrived. House, Mason, Buike, and more.
    Don’t get me worng, I dont want Thomas back. But its not like Walsh has been so flawless that a mulling period is such an awful thing. In a league where player options and QOs are not picked up until the last minute, why is it so bad to wait?
    I just think this is needless bashing for the sake or drawing eyeballs to an article. There isnt even a comparison to how some other good owner would have handled this. It’s just “I dont agree with what Dolan did, so it must be wrong.” Go ahead and bash them, but at least have some basis for it not this crud about “oh the lack of an offer is stressing the team and the management.” Bullshit in his 30 years Walsh has seen it all. THis makes him about as nervous as a strange lump on his neck.

  50. jon abbey

    Spree8nyk8: Felton is far from being our biggest problem is all i’m saying.  

    you are like the opposite of the giant in Twin Peaks:

    “the things I tell you will always be wrong.”

    Felton has been dreadful for a while, and while our biggest problem continues to be a seemingly pathological fear of rebounding, we were winning games that way for a while as long as Felton was playing at an All-Star level. unfortunately tonight Felton combined his normal (recent) suckitude on offense with a turnstile imitation on Berea, not a formula for winning.

  51. Spree8nyk8

    Well the schedule lightens up a good bit now, I think they’ll get the ship righted before too long.

  52. rohank

    @140

    Well, moreso than that I think it was full team ineptitude.

    You’re not going to win many games shooting 42% overall, 26% from 3, and being outrebounded by 20. Part of defense is getting the rebound!

  53. Kevin McElroy

    Not to compare the two as Felton even at his worst is a much better player, but Duhon hit a similar wall around the same time two years ago. I wonder if D’Antoni is so used to Nash that he runs these guys into the ground. Like Felton, Duhon got off to a start that looked considerably better than his career norms, played HUGE minutes, D’Antoni was given credit for it, and he fell off a cliff after New Year’s. Duhon never recovered and hopefully Felton will. But we definitely need a backup to take some of the mileage off of him. I for one am hoping he doesn’t make the all star team, just because he needs a break.

    Just food for thought.

  54. Kevin McElroy

    Spree8nyk8: Well the schedule lightens up a good bit now, I think they’ll get the ship righted before too long.  

    Truth. Knicks are 8-14 against teams with winning records and 17-9 against teams with losing records. Not rocket science.

  55. Spree8nyk8

    my point was that they played a very tough schedule for a long period of time. We all knew they’d drop off some. Most people expected it to be much worse than this. They have had some good wins along the way also. Just don’t get too down on them.

  56. Kevin McElroy

    For what it’s worth:

    Chris Du(or Don’t)hon (08-09)

    November 11 & 9 44/39/81
    December 13 & 9 42/40/96
    January 14 & 7 46/45/84
    February 10 & 8 39/37/79
    March 8 & 5 38/36/82

    Raymond Felton

    November 19 & 9 48/37/92
    December 18 & 10 41/33/83
    January 16 & 9 37/29/86

    In both cases, this is the player’s age 26 season.

    Not saying Felton is Duhon 2.0 just that D’Antoni might want to think about the effect of the toll he puts on point guards who aren’t freaks of nature like Steve Nash.

  57. BigBlueAL

    Kevin McElroy:
    Truth.Knicks are 8-14 against teams with winning records and 17-9 against teams with losing records.Not rocket science.  

    I have been mentioning this like crazy when people panic about the Knicks and being caught from behind in the standings. They are 15-10 vs the East. They are 3-7 vs the Top 5 from the East. Which means they are 12-3 vs all the East teams below them.

    Compare that to Philly who is 14-18 vs the East and Charlotte who is 12-17 vs the East (plus have already lost the head-to-head tie-breaker with Knicks). I know people talk about the Bucks, and they are a decent 13-12 vs the East and killed the Knicks the 1 time they played them, but after they are done getting whooped in Phoenix tonight they will be 19-28. Indiana is 19-27 and is 13-15 vs the East and have lost their only game vs the Knicks so far.

    This weekend will be very crucial though. If they sweep the Sixers forget it, the race for 6th is over. If they get swept then it becomes a real race not only for 6th but just to make the playoffs too most likely although again it will take either Milwaukee or Indiana to still make a pretty decent run. Assuming the Knicks just split with Philly which is the likely scenario then really nothing has changed and the Knicks should still be in fairly comfortable position to finish 6th let alone make the playoffs.

  58. Jimmy C

    Kevin McElroy: Not saying Felton is Duhon 2.0 just that D’Antoni might want to think about the effect of the toll he puts on point guards who aren’t freaks of nature like Steve Nash.

    There’s definitely a lot of truth to this. I still think Felton is far superior to Duhon in a number of ways, but you’re right to say that D’Antoni might have been spoiled by having Nash run his offense for so long. It’s not just that Nash is fundamentally sound and a great decision maker; it’s that he takes such good care of his body, and has such an other-worldly awareness of how he’s pushing himself in every game, that he was able to maintain an even keel that neither Duhon nor Felton seem capable of — at least right now. I emphasize “right now” because, as we should keep in mind, Nash’s “prime” as we knew it didn’t really start until he was 30.

    This is not to say that Felton will become Nash in 3 years if he just continues to develop under this system / eats organic / maintains a ridiculous conditioning regimen. But there’s certainly room for growth, in a way that I don’t think there ever was for Duhon.

    But, like many people have said: the PG isn’t the concern right now. The rebounding and the defense are. Particularly the rebounding, which is turning into a joke. I know Stat isn’t 100%, but by my count he either tied or got outrebounded by 10 different players tonight. That’s a joke. I know it’s not all on him, and I know that getting outrebounded has become an expected byproduct of running “the system”. But it’s seriously getting painful to watch.

    That all being said, the much easier upcoming stretch ought to be an opportunity to find our groove again. An an earlier poster posited, this home-and-home against Philly is huge.

  59. Thomas B.

    And the boxscore says:
    Gallinari hit shots, got to the line, made things happen, took 14 shots
    Felton missed shots, didnt get to line, made nothing happen, took 14 shots. Why isnt Felton shooting less and Gallinari shooting more?

    Fields 2-11, 0-4, and -23. I’m sure he was just rusty or had the jitters.

    Knicks out rebounded by 20, that’s a lot. I get that when you shoot 6-23 from tree and 37-88 overall, there will be rebounds but that margin is very high.

    Mozgov just 6 points and 9 boards shy of a double-double. I know, I know sample size is too small. Forget I mentioned it.

    TD was 9-13 3 steals, 3 dimes and 0 fumbles best game in a while but all i recall is that bad sequence in the fourth that ended in a bad 3.
    T. Chandler 15 points 11 boards in 28 minutes. I wish he played for us.
    Extra E is back and still thinking he is playing Williams in Atlanta. 6 fouls in 23 minutes. Did grab 7 boards–2 more than Stoudemire–but shot poorly (1-5)
    Not much else I feel like typing.

  60. BigBlueAL

    Also in February the Knicks only have 1 set of back-to-back games and that is home vs the Lakers than at New Jersey so it really shouldnt even count (not as ridiculous as the Bulls who have twice had back-to-backs where both games were at home!!).

    The schedule isnt that easy because all the teams who come to MSG are decent or very good, but of the 4 road games only the final game of the month in Miami is against a team with a winning record. Knicks have a chance this month to catch their breath, regroup and hopefully get 100% healthy.

    Also there is that Feb 24th trade deadline thing….

  61. Jimmy C

    Thomas B.: Gallinari hit shots, got to the line, made things happen, took 14 shots
    Felton missed shots, didnt get to line, made nothing happen, took 14 shots. Why isnt Felton shooting less and Gallinari shooting more?

    It’s the largest elephant in the smallest room possible. Ever since Gallo’s come back, he’s been aggressive, efficient, and productive. Period. Yet, just like before his injury, 80% of the time Felton / Stat don’t even look in his general direction. There were a few occasions tonight, mostly in the second half, when the Knicks came out of a timeout and Gallo got the ball, drove to the basket, and either got fouled or converted. It was pretty clear in these instances that D’Antoni had said something in the timeout about getting him the ball. And knowing his mentor-like approach to Gallo, it’s probably something that’s brought up semi-regularly. So that begs the question: are Felton and Amar’s just dismissing or ignoring D’Antoni’s pleas to get Gallo more involved?

    He’s still disappearing for noticeable stretches, but it’s not like before, when he’d just get the ball and dish it immediately… it’s like no one is looking for him. I’d love to see his usage rate stats, but I think it would just confirm what we’ve suspected for a while.

  62. nicos

    @149 Felton definitely needs to dial it back in terms of FG attempts though to be fair, Gallo did got to the line a ton so while their fg attempts were the same, Gallo did use a lot more possessions- and he should as he’s far more efficient! I do think he’s getting the ball a lot more than he has in the past- he used 23 possessions tonight (14 fga, 6 trips to the line, and three turnovers) which was tops on the team. Amare had 20 fgas, both fts were and 1’s, and 1 turnover for a total of 21 possessions- Felton used 15. When Chandler’s back I’d like to see Felton try to limit it to 10 fga’s but shot distribution- or at least ignoring Gallo- wasn’t a problem tonight.
    Tonight the defense was as disorganized as I’ve seen it- over-switching (Felton on Dirk on three straight possessions? WTF?) slow rotations, anemic effort on the boards- just awful. It may also have been Turiaf’s worst game as a Knick- he didn’t play much but contributed absolutely nothing when he did

  63. ltmurray

    Hey KB!

    Only caught the first quarter tonight but it sounds like the Knicks fell apart after that.

    I really didn’t expect much against Dallas, but I know some people think Gallo might eventually be a poor man’s Dirk, so it was good to see him produce against Nowitski.

    On Felton: I know he’s better than Duhon, and I like him a whole lot more, but damn the comparisons are starting to get scary.

    I think we’ll be just fine against Philly, in both games. I know it’s tough to win both, but we did it against Charlotte, and I’m sure NYK wants some revenge from earlier this year.

    BTW, loving the lack of Carmelo talk — ah shit I just flubbed it.

    Oh Finally, a question: HOW DID MOZGOV LOOK TONIGHT???? Love that guy.

  64. BigBlueAL

    With as bad as Felton shot again tonight, he did have 9 asts and 0 to’s.

    Listening to the post-game comments from the players and D’Antoni they all harped on the bad defense. D’Antoni did say Felton’s swollen left hand is still bothering him.

  65. Mowgli

    How can you say Felton ain’t the problem when it takes the same amount of shots of Gallo..

    Felton 4-14 FGM and 1-4 3PM

    just run the effin team..

  66. Nick C.

    I know someone else pointed it out but will people please stop mistating things vis a vis FGA. Felton 14 FGA 2 FTA Gallo 14 FGA 12 FTA. Unless Gallo is shooting all the techs thats, more or less, a difference of 6 possessions. In pother words much like EF% or TSP you should see it as Felton 15 poss, Gallo 20 poss. Look I know it’s a somewhat trivial point, but it is just irksome where esoteric numbers are thrown about all the time that we aren’t consistent. At any rate the underlyign point is still valid everyone is making the discrpency between Felton’s FGA + FTA + TO and Gallo’s should still be wider.

  67. d-mar

    I think BBA might have said it before, but these 2 games against Philly might be the turning point of the season if we win both or lose both. A split would be OK, losing both would be a disaster and our “lock for the playoffs” would be looking shaky. Winning both would be a big time statement for this team, and would pretty much lock down a playoff spot. Should be interesting.

    Ess dog, I think you asked in a prior thread about tix for this Sunday – I’ve got a couple, email me at knickstickets2010@yahoo.com and I’ll give you details.

  68. Thomas B.

    Nick C.:

    I know someone else pointed it out but will people please stop mistating things vis a vis FGA….it is just irksome where esoteric numbers are thrown about all the time that we aren’t consistent. At any rate the underlyign point is still valid everyone is making the discrpency between Felton’s FGA + FTA + TO and Gallo’s should still be wider.  

    (Quote)

    I don’t think I misstated a thing (perhaps over simplified the issue for lack of time/desire to get the supporting info I need but i think i have it now). It isn’t just about number of FGA per se, it’s about overall offensive efficiency. Check the advanced box score:
    Gallinari eFG% 53.6 Ortg 123
    Felton eFG% 32.1 Ortg 93
    Felton should be helping create offense for Gallinari rather than looking for do so for himself. When you consider the overall offensive efficiency of each player, yes FGA is important. It isn’t a misstatement when it is backed up by efficiency. It isn’t hard to understand that more efficient players should shoot more and less efficient player should shoot less. Felton’s offense has been bad for some time now and every bad shot he is taking takes away from a more efficient contributor.
    8 of Gallinaris shots were in the paint he missed 2
    2 of Felton’s shot came in the paint he missed them both.
    So in the case of these two players/style of production, how is a look at FGAs a misstatement of the problem?

  69. Thomas B.

    nicos:

    @149 Felton definitely needs to dial it back in terms of FG attempts though to be fair, Gallo did got to the line a ton so while their fg attempts were the same, Gallo did use a lot more possessions- and he should as he’s far more efficient!

    I’m glad you see my point. I didnt just talk about FGA, I talked about style of play and production (getting to the line). Gallo got to the line because he was attacking the defense. He took shots closer to the basket which is where many trips to the line happen. Felton took a bunch of pull up jumpers, he only got into the paint twice. I acknowledge that you cant just look at FGAs, but it is clear that Gallinari did more with his touches than Felton. And since Felton was dishing effectively, perhaps he should had done more to help players like Gallinari get more offensive toches rather than taking pull up jumpers from beyond the circle.
    Singing: I may be-I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

  70. Nick C.

    Thomas B.: I don’t think I misstated a thing (perhaps over simplified the issue for lack of time/desire to get the supporting info I need but i think i have it now). It isn’t just about number of FGA per se, it’s about overall offensive efficiency. Check the advanced box score:Gallinari eFG% 53.6 Ortg 123Felton eFG% 32.1 Ortg 93Felton should be helping create offense for Gallinari rather than looking for do so for himself. When you consider the overall offensive efficiency of each player, yes FGA is important. It isn’t a misstatement when it is backed up by efficiency. It isn’t hard to understand that more efficient players should shoot more and less efficient player should shoot less. Felton’s offense has been bad for some time now and every bad shot he is taking takes away from a more efficient contributor.8 of Gallinaris shots were in the paint he missed 22 of Felton’s shot came in the paint he missed them both.So in the case of these two players/style of production, how is a look at FGAs a misstatement of the problem?  (Quote)

    You miss the point or got pissed when you saw the word misstate and didn’t read. We just should factor in FTA when doing the X and Y shot the same amount of times and X is good but Y sux. Coming to the conclusion that Felton needs to use less possessions trying to put the ball in the basket, and those possessions should be going to Gallo or just about anyone else who has a higher EFG% merits a song of self-praise, but I…

  71. Frank O.

    It’s quite obvious to me that Gallo has figured out how to score and be efficient.
    It also is quite obvious that Felton is shooting too much. To me, Gallo and Amare should be taking the most shots, WC, when he’s there, should be third.
    Ray needs to find those guys more. His shot is important inasmuch as he keep defenders honest on PnR.

    But his pull up threes or his threes after the big man sets a pick essentially concedes the ball back to the opposition 70 percent of the time because there is no big man to grab the board.

    He’s killing the Knicks, IMHO, more than any other Knicks player right now.

  72. ess-dog

    Phew. Glad I missed that one.

    I suppose nothing has changed for us. We still need a backup (or is it starting?) point guard, and a big (7 footer) who can consistently get rebounds.

    Not sure if this is worth resolving yet anyway since Felton is faltering and we’re kind of being held hostage by the Melo thing.

    It’s frustrating to always see the same issues again and again. But if we get Melo it will be hard to address them anyway. I think we’re just going to have to ride the season out this way. Hopefully in 2012 we’ll get a top flight pg and by then one of our bigs or a new cheap big will emerge for us to get some boards.

    I’m not throwing out this and next season mind you, but I think it will be hard to get a championship contender before then. But hell, a 5 or 6 seed over the next two years is pretty good. They’re fun to watch and competitive. At least we’re a playoff team again.

  73. Kevin McElroy

    This team is exactly good enough to make the playoffs and lose in the first round. It would be impossible for them to become actual contenders this year, so let’s just be happy with the strides we’ve made this year and not handicap ourselves in a way that will prevent bigger strides down the road.

    The reason the last decade happened the way it did in the first place was because management constantly tried to make mediocre teams slightly better at the cost of the long term. Would be dumb to start that cycle over again. Ess-dog is right, do what we can to make the short term as enjoyable as possible but this team’s target season to contend is 2012-2013.

  74. Thomas B.

    Nick C.:

    You miss the point or got pissed when you saw the word misstate and didn’t read. We just should factor in FTA when doing the X and Y shot the same amount of times and X is good but Y sux. Coming to the conclusion that Felton needs to use less possessions trying to put the ball in the basket, and those possessions should be going to Gallo or just about anyone else who has a higher EFG% merits a song of self-praise, but I…  

    (Quote)

    I’m not pissed. I got far too much else going for me to get pissed about this. Oh and the song was just me having fun with that strange Charles Barkley T-mobile commercial. Sheesh. lighten up dude. Get some fibercon and let the tension go.

  75. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Dear all,

    There is positively no reason to continue to use FG% or 3PT% to assess player value. Given that the latter is part of the former, and that neither account for the percentage of shots taken from the various places on a basketball court, they are relatively worthless. Please consult 82games instead of tossing up numbers like XX/XX/XX. It doesn’t mean anything. Also, using months to split data is akin to a logical fallacy in rhetoric. (Don’t do it.) Please update your interpretative mechanisms accordingly.

    Thank you,
    THCJ

  76. Frank O.

    Thomas B.:
    I don’t think I misstated a thing (perhaps over simplified the issue for lack of time/desire to get the supporting info I need but i think i have it now). It isn’t just about number of FGA per se, it’s about overall offensive efficiency. Check the advanced box score:
    Gallinari eFG% 53.6 Ortg 123
    Felton eFG% 32.1 Ortg 93
    Felton should be helping create offense for Gallinari rather than looking for do so for himself.   

    amen

  77. Kevin McElroy

    THCJ,

    On percentages:

    Agree that this isn’t really a reasonable way to illustrate overall player value which isn’t what I was doing. Was simply illustrating Duhon’s across the board decline in simple terms seeing as this was a quick comment and not an entire post.

    On months:

    Not sure where there is available data that offers a better way to illustrate a player’s decline over time, shy of putting his entire game log on the comment board. Let me know if you have something better but until then I must cop to being stuck with the Gregorian calendar.

    On rhetoric:

    No need to cloak a direct response to my comment as a message for “all.” I am willing to accept criticism.

    On my interpretative mechanisms:

    I agree that 3p% is not a good indicator of a player’s value. I do however believe that 3p% is the BEST mechanism for measuring how well a player shoots three pointers. And Knicks PG’s have decline in such regard throughout their first season starting for D’Antoni. Unless you had a statistic which showed that this was because later in the season more of them were contested, or they were end-of-shot-clock heaves, or some other variable reduced the 3p% as the year wore on, I would be delighted to hone my explanation as such.

    Thank you,

    KM

  78. Jimmy C

    Kevin McElroy: From @thenyknicks twitter, a picture of the Knicks practicing defending entries to the post:http://yfrog.com/gyob7bkjThis is reminiscent of when the White House used to release pictures of G.W. Bush reading something, just to prove that he sometimes did it.  

    Or like last when they had D’Antoni mic’d up, and he oh so conveniently used the opportunity to repeatedly implore his boys to play better D. In fact it’s all he said. Not sure how the mic’d up thing works — whether they’re on the whole time and just pick a greatest hits, or if they tell him when it’s going to happen — but I found that pretty amusing.

  79. Nick C.

    found this on NBA Draft.net on Gallo spookily spot on in most respects.

    Borko Popic – 6/17/2008
    Strengths: Long and crafty player who has a knack for scoring Has become a very consistent shooter and can light it up from deep He is able to make shots in a variety of ways: contested, off the dribble (both ways), stepbacks, fadeaways Put together an impressive season in one of the top European leagues and has shown that he can carry the load as the primary scorer Is very mature for his age, plays with great confidence and composure Has an awkward 2 step (he is able to alter his speed and change direction once he picks up his dribble) going to the basket, allowing him to get by people and finish around the basket Shows patience when making moves, getting his defender off balance with a variety of fakes and jabs Knows how to draw contact and sell the foul to the refs When a defender cuts off his angle to the basket, he has a very effective up & under that he utilizes even out to 15 feet Anticipates well and uses his length to disrupt the passing lanes Has developed a scorers mentality, but there are obvious glimpses where he shows a good feel for the game and ability to find open teammates

    Weaknesses: A high level European player does not always equal a contributor in the NBA His body has ways to go before it will be on the NBA level Athleticism and explosiveness are just average Struggles dribbling the ball against physical defenders which hurts even more considering his blow by ability is limited His secondary moves off the dribble are subpar and he is often forced to shoot difficult and offbalance shots Tends to dribble the ball high and even looks down on it as he is attacking, hurting his court vision and decision making Has minimal elevation on his jumpshot, he is more of a set shooter and his release is very robotic and lacks fluidness His legs are stiff which makes his movements seem a bit awkward and it takes away from his quickness While he has good…

  80. NateRobinson

    Thomas B.: Singing: I may be-I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

    Roflmao!

    My main concern with Felton is his lack of effort on the PnR and fighting through screens. There was an instance where he seemed to ask for a switch on a Haywood screen as Terry settled for an open corner 3. How can you switch a Pg-C screen is beyond me.

    Anthony Randolph made a corner 3pt at the end of the game. I think he’s inching his way into some spot minutes if The Unit has another Mozgovian game.

  81. Thomas B.

    I wrote a season preview that thankfully never saw light of day (I got so much wrong) but here is what I wrote on Felton:

    Felton isn’t known for his shooting—career TS% .493—but he showed signs of improvement last year (TS% .525). He took a career low 10.6 FGA per game but he showed much improved shot selection. Felton took 3.9 FGA per game at the rim, about the same as the previous year’s 4.1 but from 16-23 feet the shot attempts dropped significantly (down to 3.1 per game from 4.7), as did his three point attempts (down to 2.0 per game from previous year’s 2.5). Because the Knicks’ line-up feature a fair number of efficient scorers, I don’t expect Felton’s game to change much from what he did last year. His shot volume will likely rise since the Knicks will play a faster pace than Charlotte did last year. Felton will play with effective scorers like Stoudemire and Gallanari. With the need to create offense diminished, Felton’s job will be to run the offense (29.5 Ast-r), keep turnovers down (10.9 TO-r) and play solid defense (103 Drtg, STL% 2.5).

    What is interesting is that Felton’s shot selection is back to what it was his rookie year. At the rim shots are lowest of career (3.4), while three pointers are highest (5). Yes you have to adjust for pace, but why is a player who hits 56% of his at the rim shots, taking fewer of those shots than ever? Playing in NY and away from Brown has Felton feeling like a rookie again, and it shows. Felton embraced the green light check out his game logs http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/feltora01/gamelog/2011/
    Whatever MDA told Gallinari about getting to the rim, he needs to say the same to Felton. At least, that is what I think.

  82. BigBlueAL

    So much for all those doomsday scenarios about sanctions for the illegal workouts. Just monetary fines for the Knicks and Heard, no loss of draft picks.

  83. NateRobinson

    They should have banned James Dolan. Much harsher for the franchise…

    Singing: I close my eyes, only for a moment and AR is gone. All my dreams, of AR playing for curiosity. All he is is dust in the bench.

  84. DS

    @175 – I think a $200,000 fine is a small price to pay if it led the Knicks to draft Wilson Chandler instead of Morris Almond.

    Has anyone else in their private thoughts wondered about the possibility of renting Zach Randolph at the trade deadline this year? He certainly won’t help matters on the defensive end, but he is the one of the (the?) best offensive rebounders in the game. Knicks had 5 offensive rebounds last night!!

  85. Brian Cronin

    So much for all those doomsday scenarios about sanctions for the illegal workouts. Just monetary fines for the Knicks and Heard, no loss of draft picks.

    Good. Logic dictated that it not be a gigantic punishment, but

    A. Some of the recent punishments by all the professional leagues have defied logic (like Melo getting suspended 15 games for that Knicks/Nuggets brawl a few years back)

    and

    B. Wojo kept talking up the punishment (which should not be surprising, seeing as how it was his story, and it made it seem like a bigger deal if the Knicks got a heft punishment)

    so I was worried.

  86. Frank O.

    Thomas B.:
    Frank O. agrees with me?! I hope the devil has longjohns because its going to be cold in hell tonight. :-)  

    :)
    You’re not always obviously funny as you were here. :)
    But I think the troll comments were unfair, FWIW.

  87. Thomas B.

    Frank O.:

    :)
    You’re not always obviously funny as you were here. :)
    But I think the troll comments were unfair, FWIW.  

    (Quote)

    Don’t worry about it. We cool.

  88. NateRobinson

    Was it possible that the Knicks were so distracted by Justin Beiber’s presence that they couldnt focus? If so Felton seems like his biggest fan…

    I blame Ray’s struggles on minutes, not only his usage rate is pretty high but he is also running the O much more than hes ever used to. Compound that to the minutes and all this flame-out could just be fatigue. Any numbers on his career usage rate by season would be nice to take a look at…

    Anyways, I am a ‘Gallo for point forward’ fan. Hes the other lone player I believe is capable of doing this for an extended period of time. Or just run some more PnR with him as the handler, give the kid room to grow. He has the confidence and mentality to pull it off.

    And is it just me or does he actually have a quicker first step this season.

  89. DS

    @182 – I think you’re right even though the Grizz would be much better off in the long run with a younger, cheaper alternative to develop alongside Conley, Gay and Gasol.

    Anyway, I can’t believe it’s 2011 and I’m sitting here trying to figure out how the Knicks could possibly get Randolph BACK!

  90. Brian Cronin

    Anyway, I can’t believe it’s 2011 and I’m sitting here trying to figure out how the Knicks could possibly get Randolph BACK!

    Extra E as your power forward will do that for you.

  91. ess-dog

    Man, it’s funny how similar Lamar Odom career was to Anthony Randolph’s when he started out.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/odomla01.html

    He also had a let down 22 yr old season. But he turned the corner at 24. He has more assists and less rebounds than AR overall but could be as good with some work.
    I guess it’s a matter of maybe wanting someone more ready to play alongside stat who is aging every minute, but it just seems like eventually, if you keep stat at the 5, that AR could eventually be the perfect 4 next to him.

  92. latke

    ess-dog, I really think randolph is more of the darius miles mold: hyper-athletic, great ball handler, stealer, shot-blocker. Like miles, no one can quite figure out how to best take advantage of Randolph’s odd assortment of skills. Miles couldn’t shoot, and didn’t have much he could do off the dribble other than pass or finish right at the rim.

    IMO D miles woulda been a very good player had his knees not given out on him.

    Odom is long like AR, but he isn’t half the athlete.

  93. Frank O.

    Just posted this on Alan Hahn FB account after someone was trying to blame the decline in Felton’s play on D’Antoni and the minutes he’s been playing Ray. Hahn challenged the assertion that it was D’Antoni’s fault, saying the coach couldn’t rely on TD to run the team for too long.
    I wrote:
    “Seriously. D’Antoni has squeezed as much out of this team as most thought possible. The Knicks have one true PG. This isn’t about fatigue; it’s about decision making. Knowing the moment when to be assertive as a scorer and when to enable better scorers. When Felton was scoring well earlier this season, he was scoring at a far better rate than he ever has. Frankly, players tend to be who they are with few variations after three or four years in the NBA. Ray is in his sixth season and it is quite clear that his advanced stats are beginning to conform with his career numbers. What is disturbing is he’s a 41 percent shooter, a number that has been steadily declining this season, and he takes 77 percent of his shots from the outside (according to 82games.com). That should give everyone pause because his eFG%, a shooting percentage that factors in the extra points scored on 3-pointers, is .464 from out there, well below the league average. Conversely, he only takes the ball to the basket 22 percent of the time, but where he is a much better scorer, greater than the league average.
    Now maybe Ray isn’t driving as much because of fatigue. Frankly, I think it’s a just a bad habit, or hubris. For a time there, I think Ray believed he could score from anywhere. When he was hot, he was right. But over his career, he’s shown himself to be a weak outside shooter.”

  94. Thomas B.

    What is Andrew Bynum’s value about now? Do the Knicks have the assets to pry him loose? It seems the Lakers need a bit more punch. I was thinking maybe Chandler, Randolph, Walker, and Curry for Bynum, Blake, Ebanks (or whatever), and a pick.

    I pressume the Lakers cut Curry right away, move Odom into the starting lineup and have Chandler as the 6th man. The Lakers’ transition scoring should improve greatly and the bench gets deeper with Randolph and Walker.

    Knicks insert Bynum as the starting center and move Stoudemire to the PF. The other starters remain the same. The rebounding gets better as does the interior defense and you now have a post option other than Z-bo (seriously? you wanted him back?!). Blake gives you a solid reserve point allowing TD to focus on defense and making shots.

    Trade Machine is blocked at work, so I can’t test it. I’m not sure but I think Bynum has one more year on his contract so adding him takes the team out of the free agent market for 2011 assuming that there will even be a market that year. I don’t mind that so much as I’d rather get a solid center than Carmelo anyway. The Knick reserves don’t lose much here. Extra E covers everything Walker does plus he plays d and can rebound. Randolph wasnt playing anyway. Ditto Curry. Freeing up Bynum’s contract gives the Lakers a few more options for retooling.

    How’s that for a home town deal? Let’s see anyone call me a troll now. :-)

  95. G

    Like that deal, though I worry about so many shaky knees on our front line. Lakers might want Turiaf too for another big body.

  96. Thomas B.

    They have Turiaf if they want him. Mozgov is probably ready to play 10-15 minutes as a reserve, and Stat can take some time at the center spot too. Of course, that means more of Extra E (Love that nickname btw) at the PF.

  97. Thomas B.

    Z:

    Wouldn’t the Lakers rather trade Bynum for Carmelo?  

    (Quote)

    Maybe but I think they need more young legs, not just a single scorer. Also, I’m not so sure Denver wants Bynum. Denver is in good shape inside are they not. A three team deal maybe?

  98. rama

    Thomas – ran your trade and it worked. Actually, ran it slightly differently:

    Chandler
    Turiaf
    Randolph
    Curry

    for

    Blake
    Bynum

    If we got anything else from the Lakers it’d be gravy, but sure, imagine if you will another cheap serviceable player and/or a pick.

    I think Turiaf would make a difference to them; they had him before and by all accounts love him. And Wil is a nice piece, and they can be the team to put their hopes on the upside of Sour Ant.

    I still don’t think they do it, but that’s a little closer, maybe, to being possible? Please, LA? Come on, you get the dominating force that is Eddy Currry, too! That’s got to be worth something! No, you say?

  99. rama

    By the way, Thomas, “Hollinger’s analysis” was that we don’t add wins, but the Lakers lose 4 wins.

  100. KnicksFanInVA

    Long time reader, but first time poster.

    Any chance we can get Bargnani from the Raptors? It’s not like they are going anywhere, and they might be better off going in to full rebuild mode.

    Would they take WC, Curry, AR for Bargs and Calderon? I know Calderon’s contract is ugly, but we would probably have to take it get Bargnani.

  101. Caleb

    I think we’d be giving up too much considering Bynum’s health.. I don’t think he’s cracked 50 games since his second seasojn in the league. Unless the Lakers added a draft pick or two I don’t think it’s worth it. (And Steve Blake can stay in LA, thanks)

    Assuming we don’t get stuck with Blake money it’s not a terrible idea, though… Bynum is really good, when healthy. But at this point I think he’s actually a bigger question mark than Randolph, over the next 2-3 years.

    LA would have to be tempted.. they need a serious upgrade of youth and defense.

  102. Thomas B.

    @ Caleb,

    I acknowledge that this is risky in terms of health. I did ask for a Laker pick to somewhat offset that. I kinda think this team is in a good position to take a risk. Best case scenario the Knicks get a healthy Bynum, he is plays at a high level, scores efficiently inside, gets rebounds, and shores the defense inside. Blake provides steady enough play to keep Felton from playing 40 per game. This best case scenario is far better (IMHO) than the best case trade for Carmelo scenario. That Bynum team is a legit ECF contender. I dont know if they can beat Miami or Boston but they should be good enough to have a solid chance.
    Worst case scenario: Bynum needs to get a scope or he tweaks the knee and he can’t go much. Well that slides Stat back to the 5 and the team makes due with Gallo or (heaven forbid) Extra E at the 4. Mozgov may have to play more, but if we still have Turiaf they could try to spilt 20-25 minutes at center each night. That isnt too much worse than the current lineup. Sure we’d miss Chandler’s contributions, but Gallo has really stepped up with Chandler out (except in the rebounding dept.). This team wont lose the 6th spot but isnt as good as the current team. The real problem comes from the hit the projected 2011 cap takes. Knicks wont be in position to offer anything to Melo other than MLE (if it is still around).

    Team option for Bynum after July 2012. So you could still go after CP3 or Howard if there isnt a franchise tag in the new CBA (that would stink).

    I don’t know how Donnie resists the urge to says “Let’s do it” if that trade is out there for the Knicks. I get goosebumps just thinking about it.

  103. Caleb

    @198 Didn’t know that was a team option – not committing the money for 2012-2013 makes that deal look a lot better. A clean slate for 2012, so we’re only talking about next season, really. Definitely the safer course than hoping MDA plays Randolph and hoping we find a good center somewhere or a good S&T with Chandler this summer.

    Not an easy cal… depends on the medical report.. and I’d still turn it down if Steve Blake were anywhere near it, though. That’s $6 million a year we would deeply, deeply regret.

  104. Thomas B.

    Steve Blake’s contract is a tough (poison?) pill, but at 4 million per until 2013 that isnt awful. It’s less that a 10th of your cap and essentially the same as the Ridinour deal I offered a few threads ago.

    I figured to get Bynum we had to take back something else since that team option 16 million on Bynum is a valueable trade assest for a team just willing to clear space. If we take Blake out, what would you add in place? Walton? More cash but fewer years. Fisher is the cheapest, but at 36 with 2 more years, I say ugh.

  105. Caleb

    In that scenario we’re giving the Lakers two good young players – one who would step right into the starting lineup and the other who IMO has a very good chance of being as valuable as Bynum before long. So I don’t think it needs a sweetener. You don’t need it, for salary match.

    Whether the Lakers do it depends on how much they like Chandler and Randolph but as I see it it’s not a one-sided deal. Maybe a slight step backward this year (if Bynum is really healthy) but possibly an upgrade for the future.

Comments are closed.