Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, September 2, 2014

235 comments on “2011 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Bucks

  1. totti

    i think i still have affection for knicks,
    i really want them to win vs celtics or whoever,
    then lose to my new gallo nuggets.
    You know, i also think the trade was a sort of blessing for him. So everybody is happy, but your beloved team future screwed by the horrible trade that took knicks assets cap space and above all players with bird rights to resign so going over the cap. Now who knows, maybe melo becomes a real star, he can while stat can’t. Billups is the key: with him 100% knicks can go to the finals. Despite dantoni

  2. art vandelay

    I HATE to say it, but the more I watch this team…as a die hard Mets fan (unfortunately), the more it reminds me of the 2007 or 2008 mets….probably more the latter as that Mets team was much more up and down, inconsistent throughout the regular season….more in terms of complete lack of leadership in the clubhouse…they just don[t have anyone step up….billups doesn’t seem to want to, and maybe that is because he frankly doesn[t have much invested in the Knicks.

  3. art vandelay

    also, tentative play offensively down the stretch of games, team panicking….not having fun….afraid to lose rather than playing to win….I hope they snap this as I can’t cope with another 2007/2008 mets-like end of season collapse here!

  4. art vandelay

    I seriously would be all that surprised if it happened…they look like a SCARED and defeated team! the team really has a bad vibe….I have been a d’antoni backer but now I am beginning to question his leadership…his laissez faire attitude I think is a detriment…..there is a real possibility they could collapse and he seems to not be concerned at all….remember how concerned he seemed, however, at beginning of season when they were 3-8 and refused to play more than 7-8 players and knew he was fighting for his job…maybe he just assumes a playoff berth is in the bag..I don’t know.

  5. totti

    i’m going on the knicks blog,
    i think they are commenting harsh considered the low soccer-like quality of that blog.

  6. domiknick

    BigBlueAL: Im honestly beginning to think the Knicks will not win another game this season.  (Quote)

    Remaining games:
    @CHA
    ORL
    NJ
    CLE
    TOR
    @PHI
    @NJ
    @IND
    CHI
    @BOS

    Of those 10, 3 are against our nemesis’s (ORL, CLE, IND) and 2 are against top Eastern teams (CHI, BOS). So, while we HOPE it’s improbable (to lose the rest of the season)…what’s sad is I no longer believe it’s impossible.

  7. Brian Cronin

    Not for nothing by the Bucks have hit some crazy ass shots.

    Agreed.

    The Knicks are playing like crap, but it is definitely true that the Bucks have made some crazy shots.

  8. BigBlueAL

    The Kings must be big Knicks fans. They win in Milwaukee on Wed and currently have an 18 pt lead at half-time in Indiana. lol

  9. art vandelay

    I swear you have seen one knick home game against an inferior team and you have seen them all….team comes in, shoots 60-70% in the first quarter….knicks down…carmelo with a big 1Q (probably will score 5 points rest of way)….they will come back and make it a game, probably take the lead at some point in the second half…only to be bedeviled by the middling HOF of the night (fun is we don[t know who he will be yet), who will precede to hit mid-range jumper after jumper, more than likely off the PNR down the stretch…my candidate for the night would be keyon dooling…with a chance for Salmons.

  10. BigBlueAL

    Guys, there is no need to look up the remaining schedule to see if the Knicks can lose the rest of their games. They will not lose the rest of their games. I was being a bit sarcastic.

  11. domiknick

    BigBlueAL: Guys, there is no need to look up the remaining schedule to see if the Knicks can lose the rest of their games. They will not lose the rest of their games. I was being a bit sarcastic.  (Quote)

    Haha, I did realize that, BBA. But I have the schedule posted right next to here at my desk at work, so it really didn’t take much effort to look it up. And yes, I was being a bit sarcastic too…but could you imagine if it DID happen??

  12. art vandelay

    btw, clyde makes some good points…knicks are not only a bad defensive team due to pace, style of play, personnel….but really they are a DUMB defensive team…running out to non-jump shooters and leaving other threats wide open.

  13. BigBlueAL

    domiknick:
    Haha, I did realize that, BBA.But I have the schedule posted right next to here at my desk at work, so it really didn’t take much effort to look it up. And yes, I was being a bit sarcastic too…but could you imagine if it DID happen??  

    LOL yeah they have I think the 6th easiest schedule remaining so they better not lose the rest of their games.

  14. BigBlueAL

    Has Shawne made a 3pter since the last Bucks game which is when he injured his finger?? I assume he has but not sure.

  15. art vandelay

    what do you folks feel about the D’antoni substitutino patterns in the fourth quarter primarily? Can we afford to leave melo out until the 6 minute mark of the 4th quarter anymore? sometimes they play without him and amare for the first 3-4 minutes of the 4th….obviously depends on the score at that point….but seems like d’antoni leave them both out for a while when the team desperately needs points and then they are way out of sync at end of game.

  16. Nick C.

    @9 this is total amateu(ish) psychology. When Dolan stepped all over the Melo trade D’Antoni may have just seen the writing on the wall and packed it in.

  17. Brian Cronin

    For a steady-handed vet, Billups can really make some shockingly stupid passes.

    Right?

  18. art vandelay

    does anyone remember billups making so many poor decisions with the basketball before he put on a knickerbocker uni??? I remember him being so much more sound as the QB of the team than this.

  19. Brian Cronin

    This lineup out there makes absolutely zero sense. You can’t play Amar’e at the 5 when he has 2 fouls in the second quarter! What the hell, Coach D?

  20. Brian Cronin

    does anyone remember billups making so many poor decisions with the basketball before he put on a knickerbocker uni??? I remember him being so much more sound as the QB of the team than this.

    The only thing I can figure is that he had very little lineup turnover in both Detroit and Denver, so maybe he just got so used to the same group of guys? I have no real idea – it is perplexing.

  21. max fisher-cohen

    art vandelay: what do you folks feel about the D’antoni substitutino patterns in the fourth quarter primarily? Can we afford to leave melo out until the 6 minute mark of the 4th quarter anymore? sometimes they play without him and amare for the first 3-4 minutes of the 4th….obviously depends on the score at that point….but seems like d’antoni leave them both out for a while when the team desperately needs points and then they are way out of sync at end of game.  

    My problem with the rotation is the minutes. You watch your guys dragging it, getting blown out of the water in the 4th quarter game after game, isn’t that a sign that the legs are going out? IMO, cut back the mintues. If the bench loses you the game, then at your guys are a little fresher the next time out.

  22. Brian Cronin

    We are not going to have some pissy personal insult back and forth here. So both of you, drop it.

  23. Brian Cronin

    He’s done it before after the trade – Walker at the 2, Extra E at the 4, Fields at the 3.

  24. Brian Cronin

    You know they’re hitting crazy shots when you see Turiaf sighing after the shot goes in.

  25. Brian Cronin

    I like Amar’e taking it at Bogut. Get Bogut into foul trouble. He’s a beast out there.

  26. Brian Cronin

    I can’t believe Fields didn’t take the three. It worked out, but boy, that was dumb.

  27. Jake S.

    Brian, I know you’re a big advocate of getting Chris Paul. Assuming they actually can, does the team’s hideous interior D and the wear and tear Amare’s been showing of late affect your thinking at all?

  28. Brian Cronin

    I think getting Paul would help Amar’e, wear and tear wise. He wouldn’t have to exert himself as much. Amar’e never looked this tired playing with Nash, right? And his minutes were similar to what he’s playing in New York.

  29. Brian Cronin

    Third attempt to get it under 5. Hopefully the Knicks finally capitalize (well, not just get it under 5 – I hope they keep scoring after that, of course).

  30. Jim Cavan

    Does anyone know what Dan D’Antoni actually does during practice? Crossword puzzles? Marcrame? Do he and Balkman play hide and seek?

  31. Brian Cronin

    It’s just so numbing. The Knicks come close, then Amar’e does something dumb then Milwaukee hits a big shot.

  32. art vandelay

    Does anyone really have confidence the Knicks, however, will pull out one of these games from behind…I mean tehy can’t get stops at the end of games…orlando scored on 13 of its last 15 possessions, boston scored something like 10 out of 12….it’s like the only way they can win is if douglas hits 9 3′s and they just hit everything…not a strong long-term strategy methinks.

  33. max fisher-cohen

    ‘melo is playing one of those anger games. He’s playing pretty hard on defense, and on offense just trying to force his way in (sometimes successfully)

  34. Brian Cronin

    ‘melo is playing one of those anger games. He’s playing pretty hard on defense, and on offense just trying to force his way in (sometimes successfully)

    That last possession. Everyone watching the game and playing in it knew that Melo was taking that shot. And he still tried the shot (and bricked it). Luckily, Sheldon got the rebound and, more importantly, Extra E got the tip-in.

  35. Brian Cronin

    Not only that, but he’s making pretty good decisions, too! Passing to Toney for the big three, for instance. Ball movement is fun!

  36. art vandelay

    A few more key baskets by Sanders and we need to consider potential middling HOF nomination….we’ll see…I hope not!

  37. art vandelay

    Watching Amare grab big boards is so frustrating because I can only think…WHY does he not bring it like this all the time on the boards like Garnett or someone of his ilk? he clearly has the athleticism to be a monster on the boards.

  38. Nick C.

    TD on Jennings, until the last two possessions, seems to have worked. 9-15 for 23 first half. Maybe 1-4 since with some FTs.

  39. Brian Cronin

    While they’re in timeout, let’s reflect on Billups driving at Bogut (who is really good) and then trying a reverse layup. Soooo dumb.

  40. art vandelay

    I am flabbergastd by Billups….does he not care? I am starting to think he really is just not into being in NY after the trade….no other explanation for such lackadaisical boneheaded play.

  41. Brian Cronin

    The 4th quarter offense continues to amaze in its ineptitude.

    It’s ball-stopping every possession. Either Amar’e or Melo.

  42. KnickInSeattle

    Billups with the idiotic 3 the minute I turned on the game, followed by Melo going 1-on-3 to get blocked.
    Dear God.
    D’Antoni needs to take control.

  43. Brian Cronin

    This would be officially the worst stretch of the season for the Knicks. They’ve never lost 8 out of 9 until now. Insane.

  44. art vandelay

    BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  45. Brian Cronin

    By the way, if this defense (which is good) ate the Knicks alive, can you imagine what the Bulls would do to them?

  46. Brian Cronin

    What’s amazing is that with Indiana’s loss, they’re still not really in dire straits. They really need to just win, like, two games. Just two games the rest of the year and they’ll be a cinch for the #7 seed in the playoffs.

  47. Brian Cronin

    Before, it was fair to note that even with all of the Knicks poor play as of late, that they had similar stretches pre-Melo. Not anymore now. They’re now in their worst stretch of the entire season.

  48. Brian Cronin

    Do we really care at this point if they make the playoffs?

    Yes.

    1. Who the hell knows what happens once you make the playoffs?

    2. If they make the playoffs and the Rockets don’t, the Knicks don’t trade picks. That’s huge. Especially if that pick were a lottery pick!

  49. KnickInSeattle

    wtf is going on?
    Seriously.
    The first few games after the trade they were a lot better than this.
    Now they only play the 2nd and 3rd quarters?
    Derrick Brown must be a cancer in the locker room.
    Or something.

  50. max fisher-cohen

    this is the worst loss post-trade. At home vs. another bad team after again proving they can play hard when they care to vs. both orlando and boston. Someone needs to play a prank on these guys and cover the entire locker room in mirrors, because they need to be taking a good long look at themselves.

  51. BigBlueAL

    No Mike Breen, its not all about effort. Its about the team looking like they have no clue what they are doing on defense and offense. This is beginning to be all on Mike D’Antoni when the SAME thing happens over and over every damn freaking game.

  52. Jim Cavan

    The Bucks literally did everything in their power to hand us that game. They shot 5 for 18 (all by Jennings if I’m not mistaken), and had like 5 turnovers. It’s mesmerizing how bad we are in the fourth quarter.

  53. Max

    BigBlueAL: No Mike Breen, its not all about effort.Its about the team looking like they have no clue what they are doing on defense and offense.This is beginning to be all on Mike D’Antoni when the SAME thing happens over and over every damn freaking game.  

    So, they shot 25% in the fourth quarter, the veteran playmaker (who KNOWS how to win) plays as a 5 year kid, the spoiled superstar disappears in the fourth quarter… and still there’s someone who think this is D’Antoni’s fault?

  54. jon abbey

    OK, Billups was a nightmare on offense, but the important thing was that he shut down Jennings on the other end.

  55. BigBlueAL

    I will honestly be watching USA-Argentina instead of the Knicks-Bobcats tomorrow night. I will flip back and forth once in awhile but my main focus will be on a meaningless soccer friendly because I need a break from watching this team.

    Also starting Thursday the Knicks will really be pushed into the background unless they wake up soon.

  56. art vandelay

    I agree about the Rockets pick more than anything…..maybe they summon some ethereal energy we haven’t seen yet come playoff time…but honestly they juts look plain bad, lacking confidence….without assertion offensively, very boring to watch…no identity…deliberate offensively, terrible defensively…panicky….as much as I like melo I am not sure he fits well because a team that plays such bad defense can’t play a half court style because it has to capitalize in transition and score easy baskets, get open threes…melo being the focal point of our offense has made it stagnant and taken away the one major weapon we had: ball movement and conditioning…outgunning the opposition…we can’t seem to outscore teams anymore with this offense…if melo is here long-haul I think they need to change the identity of the team to suit his game…posting him up 20 feet from the basket on clear outs after timeouts is just bad offense…and maybe it is acceptable if the team could then get stops at the other end if he misses…but when we play a low percentage offensive scheme we can’t expect the terrible defense to bail us out…..I think they need a defensive-minded coach.

  57. Jim Cavan

    Max:
    So, they shot 25% in the fourth quarter, the veteran playmaker (who KNOWS how to win) plays as a 5 year kid, the spoiled superstar disappears in the fourth quarter… and still there’s someone who think this is D’Antoni’s fault?  

    I don’t know Max. Certainly Melo and Stat have to start showing up. But if they aren’t going to run anything resembling SSOL, it’s like D’Antoni just doesn’t have anything else; no emergency or contingency plan, no fire extinguisher playbook — nothing. Ultimately it’s on the players, but when you have a coach that is so careful not to call anyone out and makes excuses for them, this is what you get.

  58. Brian Cronin

    OK, Billups was a nightmare on offense, but the important thing was that he shut down Jennings on the other end.

    Ha!

    Yeah, “the food there is terrible. And such small portions!”

  59. BigBlueAL

    Max:
    So, they shot 25% in the fourth quarter, the veteran playmaker (who KNOWS how to win) plays as a 5 year kid, the spoiled superstar disappears in the fourth quarter… and still there’s someone who think this is D’Antoni’s fault?  

    Did you not see the way they started the game?? I have been one of D’Antoni’s biggest fans but seriously there have been absolutely no adjustments whatsoever. Its the same thing every game. At times they look like a team playing in the playground rather than an NBA team.

  60. art vandelay

    I live in Buenos Aires…I will definitely watch the soccer friendly over the pending disaster tomorrow night….I think I actually may vow to not watch again until they win a game….I hope that comes before playoff time!

  61. max fisher-cohen

    BBA, they played well when Billups (-12) and Anthony (-14) were on the bench. The ball moved. Maybe MDA hasn’t been clear with carmelo, but he needs to play off the ball. Let the isos happen when there’s like 8 on the shot clock. Otherwise, try to get an easy shot. I’m not ready to blame this on D’Antoni.

    This all doesn’t REALLY matter unless the Knicks lose another 5-6 in a row. At that point, Milwaukee may be well within striking distance, and MDA’s job will probably be on the line. If that happens, we’ll see whether it’s MDA or Carmelo who is messing stuff up, because MDA will know the stakes and will no longer feel obligated to coddle carmelo (or Amare for that matter, who has been terrible just as often of late).

  62. Brian Cronin

    I agree, Al, but I dunno, can D’Antoni really force Amar’e, Melo and Billups to do anything really?

    We just saw Jerry Sloan get pushed out by D-Will. Jerry Sloan! The dude was there for 145 years! And if he can’t force D-Will to act a certain way (and D-Will is a lot better than these guys), what hope does D’Antoni have?

    If Melo doesn’t want to adapt, can any coach make him?

  63. BigBlueAL

    Jim Cavan:
    Good. Maybe we can be the ones who benefit from a let-down game for once.  

    That or the Knicks lose tomorrow and the pressure really starts to mount.

  64. BigBlueAL

    Again guys look I actually really like D’Antoni. I enjoy his interviews and believe he is a very smart coach.

    But while this is obviously not all his fault it is time he definitely should start getting some criticism because it is the same thing every single game. This team looks no different right now than they did under dare I say it Isiah when he coached them. They look like they have no clue whatsoever on what to do.

  65. art vandelay

    they need to stop the bleeding or the pressure will really start to mount to unbearable degree….a la mets 2007/2008…I really am worried about that….already looks like the players are pressing.

    btw, to me this game is on billups….melo and STAT, though not great, had their usual production…28 and 9 and 25 and 8 on decent shooting…billups is simply non-existent…he hasn[t been the shooter we expected and can’t penetrate to save his life or get the ball to STAT on the PNR…say what you will about felton….but at least he got into the lane….I think, once again, the PG position is a glaring hole for the team as it really has been since I can’t even remember last when we had a solid PG…I think they would have to be mad to extend billups or pick up his option unless he seriously shows more….if this is how it goes the rest of the season and into the playoffs…no WAY they can pick that up…..is the team playing worse with TD at the point, really? he clearly isn[t the answer but I don[t think billups is worth $14 million more or whatever it is financially.

  66. KnickInSeattle

    I think Billups needs to sit out the rest of the season.
    Before the injury he was actually pretty great for us, both scoring and dishing.

  67. TheXman

    Jim Cavan:
    Good. Maybe we can be the ones who benefit from a let-down game for once.  

    I didn’t watch the game, thank god, I’m done with watching this joke of a team. Anyways it’s gotten so bad that we have to chear for other teams to lose because that’s the only thing we as fans have going for us. Fuck this team, fucking joke.

  68. max fisher-cohen

    if billups continues to struggle, it will make for a really difficult decision this summer. Do you pay a guy $14 million essentially so you can have him as an expiring contract? I mean, the Knicks could just pay all that money to other guys on one year deals.

    Billups has always been a bad shot taker (and maker). lately… fewer makes. I can’t see any reason why he won’t get better. However, I still am not sure that he’ll ever help the rest of the guys because amare’s effectiveness is predicated on the pick and roll, and Billups really hasn’t shown the quickness or intuition on it that is necessary to make it effective. Part of that problem may be that there are too many offensive zeroes on the floor when he’s out there. It’s hard to say.

    To me, SSOL and Amare are like two peas in a pod. If you want to be the 2001 76ers with one guy who can make a lot of tough shots (Carmelo being AI) and a bunch of defenders, then Amare is the last guy you want. He needs that speed game in order for his offensive skills to outweigh his defensive struggles.

    So, part of this roster wants SSOL (Fields, Amare), and part of it wants something the opposite (Billups, Carmelo, and the defense-oriented bench players).

  69. Brian Cronin

    Also, shock of all shocks, in his third game starting as a post player, Anthony Randolph put up 24 and 15 on 9/16 shooting.

    It’s almost as if he should be played as a post player. Weird.

  70. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin: Also, shock of all shocks, in his third game starting as a post player, Anthony Randolph put up 24 and 15 on 9/16 shooting.
    It’s almost as if he should be played as a post player. Weird.  

    Hey, Ive turned against D’Antoni. More food for the fodder :-)

  71. misterma

    This is the darkest I’ve ever seen this board… I missed the game, but I’ve been really bummed by the team too. I just keep thinking about how fun the Nuggets are to watch. Even Al Harrington.

  72. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin: Ha! What do you think about Nate’s benching last year? :)  

    Dont bring that back up. I still have nightmares of Ted Nelson going on and on about that issue lol.

  73. art vandelay

    as much as some may want to rave about randolph…let’s just remember how easy a) it is to put up big-time stats on an excruciatingly bad team and b) at this point in the year when teams playing against said teams are even less apt to give 100% effort.

  74. Brian Cronin

    This is the darkest I’ve ever seen this board… I missed the game, but I’ve been really bummed by the team too. I just keep thinking about how fun the Nuggets are to watch. Even Al Harrington.

    Well, again, this is the worst the Knicks have played all season, so it makes sense that this would be the most bummed out we are all season.

    I really can’t get too irked, though. The Knicks would have to do some wild and crazy crap to actually fall out of the #7 spot, so in the end, all this bad play really won’t matter too much. Once they get to the playoffs, everyone starts at 0-0. And who knows what might happen?

  75. bobneptune

    Brian Cronin: Also, shock of all shocks, in his third game starting as a post player, Anthony Randolph put up 24 and 15 on 9/16 shooting.
    It’s almost as if he should be played as a post player. Weird.  

    plus he had 2 blocks and defended durant on the wing quite a bit and kept him from going nuts pretty well, but he couldn’t get any pt from d’antoni even though walsh loved him. he’s still 21, btw :-)

  76. Brian Cronin

    21! I forgot about that, honestly. I thought he was 22 by now. It is pretty amazing how poorly they handled Randolph.

  77. Jim Cavan

    ess-dog: Well at least PEJ got picked up by the Hornets.Classy move!  

    I remember experiencing a very violent pre-karmic jolt when they cut him. You can’t tell me he wouldn’t have been at least serviceable in spurts. Again, bad, bad, bad bueno.

  78. Brian Cronin

    Denver is crazy – it’s like every game a different group of guys gets between 15 and 20 points.

  79. Jim Cavan

    Brian Cronin: Denver is crazy – it’s like every game a different group of guys gets between 15 and 20 points.  

    And they pick up the most unselfish three-second calls I’ve ever seen.

  80. art vandelay

    one good thing about sports is how quickly everything can change on a dime…this team could go on a roll suddenly before or DURING the playoffs and the perspective would completely change…..to me we never expected much this season beyond 6th or 7th seed and a first round defeat, so as bad as they have played of late, are we really that far off track? you must ground the expectations in the recent past rather than based on the anthony acquisition…this taem hasn[t had a winning season in NINE YEARS….and maybe it will be 10 this season…let[s not forget how bad this team has been before we expect too much from a structurally flawed team….now, if they don’t win at least 50 games next season then seriously I think it is time to really question the wisdom of some of the teams’ recent moves…..just like in life…everything depends on EXPECTATIONS not on actual absolute performance…but I think as a team we should be gauging this team, like most companies, on year over year results and not on what we suddently thing this team should be because they made a major acquisition.

  81. Brian Cronin

    as much as some may want to rave about randolph…let’s just remember how easy a) it is to put up big-time stats on an excruciatingly bad team and b) at this point in the year when teams playing against said teams are even less apt to give 100% effort.

    The thing is, even if you want to diminish his stats when he plays as a post player, the key is that he couldn’t even get off the Knicks bench!! And when he did, they only let him play in the post in, like, one game! And that was only because Chandler and Extra E were out and Turiaf was in foul trouble! And he played well that game!!

    So even if he’s not a 20 and 10 guy, a 10 and 5 guy would have been (and would still be) a huge help for the Knicks! And he was never given a chance!!

  82. bobneptune

    Brian Cronin:
    The thing is, even if you want to diminish his stats when he plays as a post player, the key is that he couldn’t even get off the Knicks bench!! And when he did, they only let him play in the post in, like, one game! And that was only because Chandler andExtra E were out and Turiaf was in foul trouble! And he played well that game!!So even if he’s not a 20 and 10 guy, a 10 and 5 guy would have been (and would still be) a huge help for the Knicks! And he was never given a chance!!  

    yes….. i’d much prefer to have sheldon williams and jared jefferies coming off the bench and not randolph.

  83. art vandelay

    Well, Brian…I honestly can’t tell you whether AR will be a productive player in this league eventually….I suppose he has the potential to be a star and he could also be out of the league in 2 years…..at the same time, the one thing I will say, is how damning d’antoni’s record seems to be in that every time he seems to give a seldom-used player a chance he produces shortly thereafter…..like shawne williams and then anthony carter, for the most part……..he is very finnicky with his substitution patterns regarding 8th-10th players off the bench…..

    then again, I think he needs to go with the guys who will give him the best chance to win rather that give in to players based on reputation….frankly, TD did a great job on brennings in the 3rd quarter and then it seemed as if as soon as he subbed TD out for billups everything changed…..that is when brennings went off and pretty much closed the game out….I don’t how much a player is being paid, if TD is doing the job, he needs to stay in the game…he may make stupid decisions on the offensive end, but he more than makes up for it defensively…if billups were providing incredible offensively play then I would understand it…but billups is making the same mistakes, so I say go with the best defensive player of the two.

  84. Max

    BigBlueAL:
    Did you not see the way they started the game??I have been one of D’Antoni’s biggest fans but seriously there have been absolutely no adjustments whatsoever.Its the same thing every game.At times they look like a team playing in the playground rather than an NBA team.  

    D’Antoni is not free of sins (Randolph? Brewer? This is for another post :-) ), but I don’t think he didn’t try something, look at the playing time for Carter and Shelden Williams tonight. And yes, I saw how they start the game, but I don’t think that a bunch of “pro” must need help to stay focused at the start of a game, in their home building, after four consecutive losses.
    I wrote in another post ten days ago that this team need a training camp together and some (big) patches in the roster, and I still think that we must be patient until next year (even if this kind of losses are making me mad).
    I just don’t want to blame only the coach, it’s too easy an excuse for the players, the new ones in particular.
    I just want everyone to take responsability, from the owner down to the players.

  85. art vandelay

    bottomline, expectations for this team are WAY out of control….I read somewhere that the knicks were fielding an all-star team….are you kidding me? they have 2 all-stars and nothing else…they have arguably the worst bench in the league…along with miami’s….I think pundits forget that having stars is a necessary but not sufficient condition for winning championships….this team is a MAJOR work in progress……even at our worst in the 2005-2009 knick era I doubt most of the guys coming off our bench would have gotten burn…outside of Douglas.

  86. hoolahoop

    Brian Cronin: Denver is crazy – it’s like every game a different group of guys gets between 15 and 20 points.  

    That’s what their opponents were saying, making it hard to draw up a defensive plan.

  87. Max

    hoolahoop:
    That’s what their opponents were saying, making it hard to draw up a defensive plan.  

    They’re solid inside (Nene, K-Mart, Birdman), lot of shooters, everybody hustle and share the ball.
    They don’t have a star, but an above average amount of good players.
    Very good basketball, really fun to watch.

  88. Jim Cavan

    I think everyone here can safely say the Knicks will always be their team…. but seriously, who wouldn’t buy a Knuggets shirt at this point? Can we make this happen?

  89. rayhed

    AR,STAT,Gallo, Chandler, Felton + picks and cap space…. significantly better position to be in than we are now (there’s no way we’re gonna have the cap space for a third ‘superstar’ anymore)

    at least we’ve created the most fun team on earth (knuggets) and are justified in rooting for them

  90. hoolahoop

    Jim Cavan: I think everyone here can safely say the Knicks will always be their team…. but seriously, who wouldn’t buy a Knuggets shirt at this point? Can we make this happen?  

    I’ll take a medium.

  91. Caleb

    The day of the trade was the sickest I’d felt as a sports fan in a long time… at least since the 0-3 Red Sox comeback… maybe back to the ’93-94 Knicks.

    Even so I never imagined they’d be this bad. Honestly, I hope it keeps up. If they manage to be respectable, it will be easy to keep this gang together and pretend that they can be turned into a contender. A few more weeks of this, and management will be forced to blow things up i.e. start over.

    Of course, a total collapse like we’re seeing only makes it more likely that savior Isiah will be brought in and God only knows what will happen then.

    Yes I am depressed (but only when I think about the Knicks! It goes away the second I think about the NCAA, the Timberwolves, the wars of the middle East or what’s in the refrigerator!)

  92. BigBlueAL

    Oh wow just read that Stephen Jackson is hurt and probably wont play tomorrow or even the rest of the season. I mean they somehow won in Boston tonight but My God if the Knicks cant beat Charlotte w/o Stephen Jackson (remember they traded away Gerald Wallace) then they should forfeit the rest of the season.

  93. art vandelay

    I would love to review the comments on this board absolutely crushing Felon, especially after the oklahoma defeat, or maybe chandler during all of the trade rumors when he couldn[t hit a host…, and gallo really ever since he was drafted……everyone is a HUGE fan of them now that they are gone but while they were knicks few people appreciated them…..the comments on here were highly disparaging from what I recall…I think the real loss was gallinari and honestly think he could evolve into an excellent player, but let[s not completely fall in love ad nauseum with ex-players who were constantly critiqued for not being able to make this team better than 28-26!

  94. flossy

    art vandelay: I would love to review the comments on this board absolutely crushing Felon, especially after the oklahoma defeat, or maybe chandler during all of the trade rumors when he couldn[t hit a host…, and gallo really ever since he was drafted……everyone is a HUGE fan of them now that they are gone but while they were knicks few people appreciated them…..the comments on here were highly disparaging from what I recall…I think the real loss was gallinari and honestly think he could evolve into an excellent player, but let[s not completely fall in love ad nauseum with ex-players who were constantly critiqued for not being able to make this team better than 28-26!  

    Go back and look for comments ripping them for playing like they didn’t give a shit, or for doing things like hanging back to bitch at the refs instead of running back on defense. I don’t think there were many…

  95. d-mar

    Was at the game, and it was a typical Friday night crowd, well lubricated and just waiting to bust out. And the team never responded, never got a key stop, and there was never that moment where you thought “okay, now the better team will assert its will” What bothers me most about this team is there’s just no spirit, no fight .Even in the dreary days of cap clearing, when we had a lot less talent, the team at home would feed off the crowd and possibly pull out a victory just by giving a crap. Now it looks like a bunch of guys going through the motions, and we make teams like the Bucks and Pacers look much better than they really are. Maybe it’s cause I was there in person, but this was the most depressing loss of the year to me.

  96. art vandelay

    There were many people here questioning gallo’s heart and his desire over the years…..clearly not for felton (whom I honestly miss a lot) and chandler….

  97. art vandelay

    honestly, we have the team we have…there is nothing we can do about it..it really only asks the question: does it make sense to follow a team at all, or a franchise, or to follow individual players? is it rational to follow a franchise simply because one was indoctrinated into liking it by geography alone or should one choose a team based on personnel???

  98. Jim Cavan

    “We’re going to try to figure it out as a team and you know when it happens them times will be fun. Basketball will be fun again. We won’t have to worry about losing eight out of nine, or seven out of eight, or something like that,” he said. “You know everybody is going to be smiling again and be happy. Right now, you know is hard to smile right now when you’re losing games, I can tell you that.” — Carmelo Anthony

    This idea that it’s just going to “happen” really brings my piss to a boil. Like some ethereal switch will be flipped and they’ll be suddenly made whole.

    I will say this about the guy: he’s very good at personifying his nickname.

  99. Caleb

    As Seinfeld said, we root for the laundry.

    But the older I get, the more for particular players…

    NY fans (not necessarily this board) just got greedy. The 2010-2011 Knicks version 1.0 were on course for a 12- or 13- game improvement, making the playoffs for the first time in many years, still extremely young and financially flexible.

    But they were a year or two away from a serious run, and when some people saw what they thought was a shortcut, last month, they got impatient.. .

  100. Caleb

    @196 I know what you mean but in general I pay approximately zero attention to anything players and coaches say, unless it’s funny. It makes life easier and I don’t think you miss out on any actual information. It’s like listening to a press conference of a totalitarian regime.

  101. tenebrous

    who are these guys??? how did they get here??? time passes by fast. I have no idea how, but they’ll make the playoffs.

    I’d rather see them make the 7th or higher seed but this could be an 8th seed team that wants to finish what the 8th seed team didn’t finish before. Too bad they’re not playing The Rockets.

  102. Jim Cavan

    @198

    It’s not so much what they’re saying as how they’re saying it — the attitude they exude. I’m certainly not expecting 15 Bill Bradley’s on the post-game mics. I’m just looking for some sign that they understand the gravity of the situation. Shit, I’ll take a “it’s gut-check time” or “we really need to look at ourselves in the mirror” — anything that shows me these guys have a pulse.

  103. art vandelay

    As someone who was the biggest seinfeld man of all time bar none (maybe some have me beat, but no one beats larry david to me), I think we need to reassess what we are rooting for…if so many of you are disillusioned, go root for denver or for another team…..is it really that big a deal to choose another squad….this is why I think NJ has a real chance of stealing Knicks fans….that borough is dying for a team to back and as soon as they get an inking of success, trust me there will be a major following behind the Nets whether we want to believe it or not…I am as die hard a knick fan as can be….I remember all the tragedies of hte 90s…PJ brown, ewing’s finger roll, charles smith….need I say more…

  104. art vandelay

    I think NYC is going to back whatever team wins, if it is a team that scores 110 points per game or a team that averages 85….bottomline is wins….KG was considered a total loser until he won with boston in 2008 now he is a great CHAMPION.

  105. tenebrous

    I remember when they came out of the locker room going to the floor they all would touch the Knicks logo on the way to the floor. Someone please show Anthony (athat rest o the newbees) that we did that in every (probably every) home game. What’s up with just walking by the Logo on the wall when making that left.

    Touching that logo kind of represents that they are about to put on a show. It also represents kind of a high five to the fans. Amare are you so gaga on melon that you also forgot?

    Sup people???

  106. Caleb

    @203 I agree there is an opening for the Nets after all these years of disappointments, and Dolan still running the team, BUT….

    …from what I can see so far, Prokhorov is just another Dolan, a rich incompetent when it comes to running a basketball. Maybe he will evolve like Cuban did but as things stand they are run just as badly – worse, if Donnie somehow sticks around. Billy King and Avery Johnson aren’t taking anyone’s fans. Deron Williams will be gone in a year – across the river, if the Knicks play their cards right and flip Anthony in a few months.

  107. art vandelay

    I think part of the problem was that the team was so bad for SO many years that old knicks lore from the 90s was lost…..there isn’t any attachment with the past and what that team was about….part of the problem is that the franchise has really disenfranchised many greats from that era (e.g. Ewing, Oakley) for whatever reason……

  108. SangaD

    someone tell van gundy hes been drafted. time for the 99 houston on one side spree on the other.

  109. bobneptune

    Jim Cavan: “We’re going to try to figure it out as a team and you know when it happens them times will be fun. Basketball will be fun again. We won’t have to worry about losing eight out of nine, or seven out of eight, or something like that,” he said. “You know everybody is going to be smiling again and be happy. Right now, you know is hard to smile right now when you’re losing games, I can tell you that.” — Carmelo AnthonyThis idea that it’s just going to “happen” really brings my piss to a boil. Like some ethereal switch will be flipped and they’ll be suddenly made whole.
    I will say this about the guy: he’s very good at personifying his nickname.  

    if there is a god the max salaries will be rolled back 10-15% in the next cba. then extorting the nix to trade 5 players and 3 draft choices will all be for naught as although he signed for “his (max) money” he’ll end up getting no more than if he signed as a free agent at the end of this year.

    then he’ll be stuck playing in purgatory for the next 4 seasons on a team without any quality depth and with 2 gaping holes in the line up. and in the end the cognoscenti will know it is all his fault.

    all because he wouldn’t man up like bosh and lebron who signed for 14.5m the first year of their escalating contracts. it serves the sob right…. he’ll get a little more money, but is stuck on a 45 win team for ever.

  110. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Caleb: @196 I know what you mean but in general I pay approximately zero attention to anything players and coaches say, unless it’s funny. It makes life easier and I don’t think you miss out on any actual information. It’s like listening to a press conference of a totalitarian regime.  

    This.

  111. JK47

    You know, it’s funny how things work out.

    I’m a Mets fan. The Mets are not going to be good in 2011, and they’re probably not going to be amazing in 2012 either. But I’m excited about the Mets, because Sandy Alderson is running the Mets now, and Sandy Alderson knows what the hell he is doing. Every move the Mets have made since Alderson has taken over has been patient and smart. There are no panic moves coming; there is no delusional “win-now” mentality. The Mets are going to slowly, patiently build a winner. I’ll be watching them enthusiastically this year.

    We had that sort of mojo going here, and we don’t anymore. I’ve tried to believe in the new Knicks even through some miserable losses, but after tonight I have very little faith. Maybe this thing gets turned around next year with a different supporting cast… I really hope so. But for now, I’m pretty much tuned out. I’m not going to torture myself with this team anymore. They’re bad. It was a bad trade. It’s probably going to haunt us for a long time.

  112. jon abbey

    actually the Mets and the Knicks are in the same exact boat, neither will ever win again until they have far better ownership. let’s see how excited you are this summer when they dump Reyes because they don’t want/can’t afford to pay him.

  113. TheRant

    art vandelay: honestly, we have the team we have…there is nothing we can do about it

    You’re leaving out one major fact — there is indeed one thing the Knicks can do. They can extend Donnie’s contract tomorrow.

    By acknowledging the great work that Donnie did up until the Melo trade, the Knicks would be reconnecting with the attitude that we need to build incrementally.

    Maybe we get lucky and trade Melo for CP3 in a year, or whatever Donnie has up his sleeve and then start again later from a base of two stars plus Landry, try to build something over time. @Caleb expressed this articulately @197.

    My point is that Dolan could do this now. And by not doing it, he’s falling into the same trap that’s killed us for a decade — (a) get a name (b) try to keep the Garden lit during the Playoffs (c) raise prices, repeat until fade.

    Donnie is a chess player, looking five moves ahead. Dolan is an child, looking at a jellybean. We need to pick our path.

  114. jon abbey

    Donnie did a nice job finding role players this offseason, but the Jordan Hill pick will forever tarnish the job he’s done here. Brandon Jennings, Ty Lawson, Collison, that pick absolutely had to be a PG and it still haunts this franchise (directly in this game, of course).

  115. Jim Cavan

    TheRant: Donnie is a chess player, looking five moves ahead. Dolan is an child, looking at a jellybean. We need to pick our path.

    Love this. It reflects a Colonel Kurtz-ish madness that I think we’re all trying really hard to fight off right now. Nominee for quote of the month.

  116. jon abbey

    it’s actually a very misleading dichotomy, since Dolan isn’t going anywhere and he overruled Walsh on the biggest decision NY has had in years, which ended up in giving away Mozgov for no reason (at least).

  117. Frank

    Pretty disheartened Knicks fan right now. It is sad when it looks like maybe our best point guard right now is Anthony Carter.

    Trouble with Billups right now – he doesn’t make anyone better. He looks 2 steps slow on defense – hopefully it’s his thigh which is not fully better. He seems only able to make 3′s when an offensive foul is called on the same play so the shot doesn’t count. He doesn’t run the pick and roll, and when he does he turns the ball over. And possibly worst – D’Antoni feels compelled to play him in crunch time, which means Landry Fields sits.

    I think Billups needs to sit more than he plays now. Call it resting a vet before the playoffs. Call it letting his leg heal fully. Call it whatever you want. But the truth is – this team looked GREAT when he was not playing. 4-2, beat some good teams. Douglas looked like a bonafide at least average PG. Anthony Carter was great energy off the bench. Landry played 4th quarters. This team needs a WIN at any cost right now, even if it hurts the ego of a good guy who very well may be let go at the end of this season. Melo has shown the ability to be the ballhandler on the PnR – let him run it with STAT 10-15 times/game.

    Other thing – and I can’t believe I”m saying this — Shelden Williams needs more time. Sure he had one of the ugliest ballhandling moments of the season last night. But he is a real post defender and an above average rebounder who was good enough to be a solid rotation player for the Celtics last year. Play him 22 minutes, Turiaf 20 min, and if you must, Jefferies for 6 minutes at the 5.

  118. massive

    Jennings isn’t great (or good), but I’m pretty sure he’ll have a better NBA career than Jordan Hill.

  119. JK47

    @213

    Trading Reyes would be the smartest thing the Mets could do. I’m hoping the guy tears it up so he brings us a nice grip of prospects.

    Reyes is a speed-based player entering his age 28 season. He’s a leadoff hitter with a .330 career OBP. He’s about to get a contract that he will never perform to. I’ll be jumping for joy the day they trade Reyes.

  120. Jake S.

    Donnie (or whomever) needs to get extremely creative this off-season. What about looking at a guy like Ian Mahinmi on Dallas? He’s looked pretty good in the limited burn he’s gotten so far in his career. I really hope they decline Chauncey’s option so they can find a way to add a couple of pieces to this team. Open question to the forum: What can you realistically seeing the Knicks’ rotation looking like next year?

  121. ess-dog

    Wow what a sad state of affairs. Tonight is a must win for these guys.

    Just to try and be a little positive:

    1. The Bucks have always given us fits. The rebounding was dismal before and after the trade with Bogut in the middle.

    2. Amare/Melo aren’t playing THAT badly. It’s more the rest of the gang, especially Billups.

    3. D’Antoni’s still feeling out his options. More Shelden/less Jeffries is probably a good thing and more Balkman and Brown would be nice.

    That’s all I’ve got. How the hell are we not thinking about bringing Barron in at this point? He’s a big live body, has 3 inches on Shelden and can actually shoot a bit. WTF?
    And yes, lets rest Chauncey. Maybe another week or so. He looks like molasses.

    That is all.

  122. Z

    ess-dog: 2.Amare/Melo aren’t playing THAT badly.It’s more the rest of the gang…  

    Yeah– this is the main reason why it is a bad idea to trade 5 rotation players for one guy. That one guy would have to play a whole lot better that “not that bad” for it to work out.

  123. Brian Cronin

    That really is one thing we can hopefully hang our hat on – that Billups is playing so poorly because of the injury and not because he got old. I mean, the injury wouldn’t necessarily explain some of the poor decisions he made last night (like when they were crawling back to get within 5 or something like that and he throws a blind behind the back pass – repeat, a blind behind the back pass!!! – that was picked off), but it would explain why he was sooooooo slow and perhaps would explain why some of his shots were so off (that his jumper was affected by the injury – which really is realistic, honestly).

  124. d-mar

    I don’t actually play any of those NBA X-Box games (my son does) but just wondering: what would be the result of a game between one team with-

    Stoudemire
    Anthony
    Billups
    Fields
    Turiaf

    and the other team having

    Boris Diaw
    DJ Augustin
    Dominic McGuire
    Kwame Brown
    Gerald Henderson

    (which was the starting lineup vs. Boston last night.)

    I would guess a 30 point blowout for the Knicks? Too bad we have to play this game in the real world!

  125. Shad0wF0x

    @229

    I have NBA 2k11 and in a simulated game, the Knicks would almost win for certain. If a decent player uses the Knicks, the margin would be close to around 20. The main difference is that most gamers would understand the limitations of each player (like don’t do a behind the back cross over with Amar’e). In fact, as the season progressed, 2k sports actively made STAT’s handle and hands ability worse.

  126. Brian Cronin

    Simmons last night on Twitter:

    Knicks-Celtics Round 1: the “No, WE Made A Worse Trade” series.

    But after fairly shockingly admitting he was wrong in pushing the trade so much, he followed up with:

    For the record: I still support the Melo trade longterm for NYK. But their 2011 coach is now ill-equipped to coach their 2011 roster.

    Suuuuuuuure, because that was something that everyone thought before the trade. “I like the deal, but not if D’Antoni is the coach.” Give me a break. One of the biggest pros for the trade was that playing in D’Antoni’s system would make Melo a more efficient player!

  127. Jake S.

    So how do we fix this? What’s a reasonable course of action? Someone please convince me that the next 5 years will not be lost to perennial mediocrity or worse.

    And as far as Simmons is concerned, I knew we were in trouble as soon as he published his spiel about these kind of “three-quarters-for-a-dollar” trades always working out. The Knicks always seem to be the exception that proves the rule.

  128. Brian Cronin

    Ha! Yeah, Jake, but especially since Simmons conveniently left off the examples that didn’t support his theory (like the Marbury trade and the Bob McAdoo trade, just to name two Knick examples).

    But as to your first question:

    So how do we fix this? What’s a reasonable course of action? Someone please convince me that the next 5 years will not be lost to perennial mediocrity or worse.

    I’m still on board with the “Knicks have a shot at Paul or D-Will” scenario. That would fix this. The Knicks would then basically be the Heat, which is fine by me.

  129. hoolahoop

    At least, before the trade we had a good idea of what the knicks needed to get to the next level – a good solid big, and an upgrade/back-up PG. They moved the ball well, scored a bunch, but needed to shore up the defense.

    Now, the team is confused. Throw all the stats you want at me, since the trade the offense has no cohesiveness. Amare has had trouble fitting into the flow (if you can say the offense has any flow), and Fields, too, is having trouble fitting in. Both, Billups and Melo, have brought a virus to this team. So far, Dantoni has not been a good doctor.

    Until the team, Melo and Billups in particular, learn how to move the ball to find good shots, this is going to be the Melo-bury era. At best, a 45 win team.

  130. ess-dog

    Honestly, it’s not like we “lost” the trade on a talent level per se. It wasn’t that much to give up (although the Billups/Felton part is looking pretty harsh right now.)
    It’s just that we lost a high volume of players and simply can’t replace them this year. We really should’ve held onto either AR or Moz but Jimmy got his guy.
    I mean, Denver is on a tear, and it’s not necessarily because of our guys being so great, but they are much deeper than they were. Nene and Lawson are still the main reasons for w’s in Denver.
    But as for us, we just need to wait, hope and pray. It might take 2 or 3 years to get to round 2 of the playoffs, including this year. We literally need to add about 4 above-average role players to this team in order to make noise. We have to nail our pick this year, and locate a cheap and clever free agent signing. And then do that again the following year.
    It sounds really hard, but the Spurs do it pretty much every year. Why can’t we? Maybe an 8 man rot. of Sessions/Douglas/Fields/Melo/Kris Humphries/Stat/Jerome Jordan/draft pick isn’t sexy but it could be a solid 4-6 seed for three years depending on chemistry and drafting.
    If we can draft really well, maybe we can pull off a CP3 deal, but I still think it’s pretty unlikely.
    I have to say, even the thought of being a perennial Utah Jazz east for a while doesn’t kill me. Solid playoff games for 3, 4 years is what this town needs.
    We definitely need a few hustlers on this team though. Asap.

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