Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, September 2, 2014

2011 Game Thread: Knicks @ Pistons

For your in-post game thoughts.

232 comments on “2011 Game Thread: Knicks @ Pistons

  1. micdan

    2nd hope the knicks win today! they kind of learn how to win on the road but forgotten how to win on their own home court

  2. Nick C.

    Oh a pick and roll, sort of, from Felton to Amare. Of course if Felton passed a tick sooner Amare has a dunk instead of having to go up and under.

  3. Spree8nyk8

    Nick C.: Oh a pick and roll, sort of, from Felton to Amare.Of course if Felton passed a tick sooner Amare has a dunk instead of having to go up and under.  

    C’mon dude, he went up and under for a dunk though. Give RayRay a break!

  4. cgreene

    Re: Gallo

    It is plainly clear that his teammates miss him wide open off double teams and when swinging the ball around the perimeter. He has been wide open 4x and it’s like they don’t even see him. Chandler gets the ball more on the perimeter. He is putting himself in open spots on the floor and he is simply not getting the ball. Bad passing or is it something more?

  5. Z

    Robert Silverman:
    Hurt at the end of last night’s game, evidently. Thigh bruise  

    He was limping around the court at the end of yesterdays game. Not sure what happened, but something in his leg or ankle.

  6. Nick C.

    Spree, I hear ya. I just wanted to make note that they do in fact make them. Like a lot with the team there seems to be improvement on stuff from game to game which is cool. In a month it may be so common that it barely rates a comment.

  7. Peter87

    atdhe not working for me…unless they have some kind of limit? I’m also watching the Steelers and the Giants…if the knicks feed comes through too I’m officially in heaven…

  8. Spree8nyk8

    ltmurray: adthe is giving me rainbows instead of Knicks….any alternatives!?  

    I would try the ATHDE link again in five mins, sometimes they are just slow getting it going but it’s the most reliable. But situations like that are why I got league Pass for PC.

  9. ltmurray

    Thanks Spree. And I want to see Randolph too! This seems like the perfect time to get him some run, against a team without many bigs AND on a day when we don’t have Turiaf. Could it really be worse than more missed 3s from Roger Mason?

  10. latke

    atdhe is not working. Sometimes searching twitter will get you a live feed, but all i’m getting is an endless cycle of blogspam. sigh.

  11. ltmurray

    latke: atdhe is not working.Sometimes searching twitter will get you a live feed, but all i’m getting is an endless cycle of blogspam.sigh.  

    We’ll just have to rely on the Knickerblogger community to keep us updated! But let me know if you do find a feed.

  12. Spree8nyk8

    I’ll try hosting it until the link works but I’ve never set it up before so idk how good it will be

  13. Robert Silverman

    Anyone else find those MSG spots where the announcer taunts the other team really asinine/bush league (like the “Melo’s debut…for the Nuggets…for now” one)?

  14. cgreene

    The problem (and I agree w MDA) with giving AR minutes is that he is using them as a showcase that he can do it all and not just trying to make the best team play. It costs possessions.

  15. ltmurray

    Spree8nyk8: how bad is it?  

    It’s more like a series of pictures than video stream, but it’s something! Actually, Mr. Henman’s link looks pretty promising. Yep, it’s great. You guys are both incredible people — I owe you big time!

  16. Spree8nyk8

    Sorry guys shut it down because the other link was working and I don’t think my link was running very well.

  17. cgreene

    Oh so it’s going to be McGrady that does the ex-Knicks that comes back to kill the Knicks thing today. Awesome.

  18. Spree8nyk8

    Yeah I don’t think my home connection is strong enough to recieve the stream and rebroadcast it. Plus I’m pretty sure the sound was coming from my mic so I think if I woulda farted everyone woulda known

  19. ltmurray

    Spree8nyk8: Yeah I don’t think my home connection is strong enough to recieve the stream and rebroadcast it.Plus I’m pretty sure the sound was coming from my mic so I think if I woulda farted everyone woulda known  

    haha don’t worry Spree, your efforts kept my hope alive.

  20. BigBlueAL

    I fear the Knicks getting blown out in the 2nd half. Tired starters and no bench whatsoever today vs a fresh Pistons team and an apparently rejuvenated T-Mac.

  21. d-mar

    Since when did that ugly line drive shot by McGrady start going in the basket? Just in time to play your New York Knicks!

  22. Nick C.

    I like the ball movement on O. Very few one pass and dones. Not crazy about the inability to follow player movement on D or being down at the half even if its only 2. Love that play by Fields to end the half.

  23. d-mar

    That was cool how Stat gave a little index finger signal to Fields for the alley oop, nice communication.

  24. BigBlueAL

    The Knicks had a very good 1st quarter but once they went to their bench things got away from them. Mason Jr as the backup PG is a joke, Mozgov and AR gave them nothing plus Walker had to get pulled because his defense was atrocious.

    If the starters can play most of the 2nd half w/o collapsing from exhaustion Knicks still could pull this one out.

  25. cgreene

    Feeling very dramatic today for some reason. But if the Knicks don’t perform well in these “winnable” next 9 (including today) and then go into that daunting stretch we could be looking at one of those 3-17 stretches that has killed their seasons over the past 5 years.

  26. latke

    cgreene: Feeling very dramatic today for some reason.But if the Knicks don’t perform well in these “winnable” next 9 (including today) and then go into that daunting stretch we could be looking at one of those 3-17 stretches that has killed their seasons over the past 5 years.  

    It feels like they are one bench player short of being a solid team. That means either AR or Mozgov has to take a step forward. I don’t mean they have to become great, but if mozgov could just catch and finish at the rim or randolph could just make the 16 footer, we’d be right there. WIthout that, I am equally paranoid that we could have a big collapse here, especially if turiaf is seriously hurt.

  27. Robert Silverman

    GHenman: We need Mason to be able to come in and contribute.  

    And I need Christina Hendricks to call and ask me out tonight. Which is more likely to happen?

  28. Robert Silverman

    That might have been the ugliest fast break (that led to a score) in the history of basketball

  29. latke

    I have to say, for a close game, this is about as boring as it gets. Neither team playing well, most of the offense coming from defensive lapses.

  30. Robert Silverman

    The first 3 mins of this quarter are going to be crucial. Felton and Stat are both gassed, Chandler’s got 4 fouls, and their subs haven’t given the Nix much at all. I’m nervous, to say the least

  31. Nick C.

    Despite having to play the end of the bench they still have a good chance down 3 to start the 4th. Tho not if they play D like that.

  32. Robert Silverman

    The Russian League uses a basketball that is slathered in borscht and vodka, and therefore easier for Moz to catch.

  33. Spree8nyk8

    Well if Timo doesn’t work out for the Knicks there are probably several Judo camps out there that can’t wait to sign him…

  34. Z

    Robert Silverman: The Russian League uses a basketball that is slathered in borscht and vodka, and therefore easier for Moz to catch.  

    haha. Except the Russians knew something we didn’t: That Mozgov wasn’t very good. He wasn’t even a starter on his mediocre team, right?

  35. cgreene

    Robert Silverman: The Russian League uses a basketball that is slathered in borscht and vodka, and therefore easier for Moz to catch.  

    the active ingredient in borscht is the beet which is relatively slimy compared to leather which should make it easier for Moz to catch no?

  36. Robert Silverman

    Z:
    haha. Except the Russians knew something we didn’t: That Mozgov wasn’t very good. He wasn’t even a starter on his mediocre team, right?  

    Granted, it was youtube clips, but he looked great in the PnR — and definitely could catch the ball.

  37. Robert Silverman

    cgreene:
    the active ingredient in borscht is the beet which is relatively slimy compared to leather which should make it easier for Moz to catch no?  

    When it dries, it’s very tacky. And thus ends the longest conversation about beet-based foods in K’blogger history

  38. Z

    Robert Silverman:
    Granted, it was youtube clips, but he looked great in the PnR — and definitely could catch the ball.  

    Perhaps the passes were easier to catch because the competition was weaker. Because in the NBA, dude can’t catch.

    (or maybe it was the ball slathered in vodka…)

  39. Robert Silverman

    There really needs to be a moratorium on the use of “The Final Countdown” by Europe at the end of NBA games.

  40. Spree8nyk8

    I think Timo has tons of anxiety still. He might have been done a disservice by being a starter so early. He just seems to have a lot of nervous fouls and the butterfinger stuff. I think over time he’s going to work that part out. Idk if he’ll be a good player but I think he’ll get a lot of those kinks out.

  41. Spree8nyk8

    Z: Why does Chandler love to shoot the ball?  

    That wasn’t his fault, against the shotclock in the corner, necessary force.

  42. Frank O.

    Why, why, why didn’t he pass it to STAT breaking to the hoop? Amare had an open lane to the hoop.
    Instead he dishes to a guy who is 27 feet from the basket…

  43. Robert Silverman

    When was the last time in this game a Knick made a shot that wasn’t a FT? I can’t recall

  44. CapB

    WTF is Gallo shooting the one just now? He is not even setting his feet before he shoots.

    Felton completely missed Amare going to the hoop on the last shot.

  45. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    At least we know that Gallo loves to play basketball: he seems to be [i]trying[/i] to prolong the game.

  46. Spree8nyk8

    Frank O.: Is there a reason why they keep throwing up 3pt prayers when they paint appears to be open?  

    Because we are so determined to make sure we shoot the last shot that we aren’t actually finding a last shot.

  47. cgreene

    End game situations are mind boggling. Tie game. Dribble 35 feet away make 1 pass and shoot a 28 footer. Totally on D’Antoni. No timeout? No play? No take the ball to the hole to try and get a foul? WTF???????

  48. Spree8nyk8

    What is so hard about telling people to never foul on any 2 pt shot there? I just don’t get it.

    Gallo you owe 2 more…

  49. Thomas B.

    Frank O.:
    I’m sorry. Landry isn’t a poor man’s anything.
    He’s Landry Fields.  

    Amen. Stop insulting Landry’s defense by calling him “mini-Lee.”

  50. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Again, Landry Fields is performing, according to Berri’s metric, among the top-ten rookies of the modern era. Y’know, just behind names like Jordan, O’Neal, Duncan, et al.

    He’s not a poor man’s Shawn Marion. He’s BETTER than Marion was. And he’s 22.

  51. Frank O.

    And they did this without Douglas or Turiaf.
    I can’t be happier right now with the Knicks progress, really.
    Eleven roads wins all last year, and seven in the first month.
    I’ll take that.
    And this was the second half of a back to back, and both were relatively early games.

  52. Spree8nyk8

    They’ll get Azu in the next week or so and that should be a good shot in the arm if he can play close to form.

  53. BigBlueAL

    Helluva gritty win for this team. Middle of the 3rd quarter I thought the Pistons were on the verge of pulling away when they went up 8. Felton looked exhausted/injured and he took some bad shots but much credit to him for gutting it out and especially for his mini-spurt in the 4th to give the Knicks what seemed at the time control of the game.

    I wanted to literally kill Gallo after the 1st OT. Then he makes back-to-back 3′s to start the 2nd OT. I actually didnt think the Knicks D was that bad at all throughout the 4th and the OT’s because except for a couple of open jumpers all the shots were contested and the refs bailed the Pistons out with some questionable foul calls.

    Thankfully Knicks only play at home Tues vs the Nets over the next 4 games so some time to regroup and rest before next weekend and hopefully get a home win vs the Nets in between. I will say one thing, this Knicks team certainly makes their games fun to watch and since they win half of them its alot easier for us to enjoy the games for now lol.

  54. BigBlueAL

    I meant over the next 4 days obviously giving the Knicks hopefully some time to rest and recover from injuries before the weekend when I believe they play 3 games in 4 days again.

  55. Robert Silverman

    Thomas B.:
    Amen. Stop insulting Landry’s defense by calling him “Mini-Lee.”  

    True, but one, it’s a witty bit of word-play and I like saying it. Two, like Lee, Fields was a senior/unheralded (mocked, even) pick who always seems to be around the ball, rebounds better than anyone could have imagined and just makes the team better when he’s on the floor. Far from being an insult, It’s a helluva compliment, methinks.

  56. BigBlueAL

    Spree8nyk8: Oh btw, the Knicks have had a game postponed and still played more games than any other team.  

    Plus their schedule from mid Dec to mid Jan is beyond brutal. Knicks stay afloat by Feb they could be in line for a very good 2nd half of the season.

  57. Z

    Nice win.

    From the comments here it would seem that Gallinari had a terrible game. Truly the box score must lie: 7-12 shooting, 20 pts, 9 rebounds, 4 assists, a block, and a team high +13.

    Down the stretch it looked like Felton was trying to channel Stephon… a lot of important shots that would have been better served shot by other people.

    Also, I watched the entire game and just discovered from the box score that Ben Gordon suited up. Quietest 30 minutes a guy can play: (3 pts, 3 TOS, in 30 minutes.)

  58. cgreene

    Hard to believe Fields is a rookie and going to get better. Could be a franchise changing pick if you think about the trade possibilities (not Melo).

  59. CapB

    Gallo was getting abused down the stretch by Prince. His defense was pretty bad and launching up a 27 foot shot was a bad idea.

    Yes, the box score can lie.

    Felton only had 2 TO’s tonight (well 3 actually but that last one there were 20 sec left and the game was over), hit 10-10 from the foul line and had a big 4th quarter. You guys constantly kill him for no good reason other than he didnt play a perfect game.

  60. Z

    Thomas B.: Donnie you are a freaking genius!!  

    Yeah, he sure hit the jackpot with that 2nd round pick. He pulled A. Davis out of the 2nd round in Indy. Landry’s first month has to be the greatest 1st month by a 2nd rounder in the modern era, no? Thank you Donnie, indeed.

    On the reverse side, WTF happened to the great Joe Dumars? He was King Midas when he took over the Pistons. But now he seems to be seriously out of touch. He gave $90 million to Gordon and Villanueva last year. Those two both came off the bench today and combined for 8 points on 2-10 shooting, 3 rebounds, 1 assist, 4 turn overs, in 45 minutes.

  61. BigBlueAL

    Z: Nice win.
    From the comments here it would seem that Gallinari had a terrible game. Truly the box score must lie: 7-12 shooting, 20 pts, 9 rebounds, 4 assists, a block, and a team high +13.Down the stretch it looked like Felton was trying to channel Stephon… a lot of important shots that would have been better served shot by other people.Also, I watched the entire game and just discovered from the box score that Ben Gordon suited up. Quietest 30 minutes a guy can play: (3 pts, 3 TOS, in 30 minutes.)  

    My problem with him in the 4th quarter and 1st OT was his defense. Prince hit some tough shots on him but flopping and getting called for a foul because of it was a horrible play and of course letting Prince go left (his strong hand) and then fouling him, questionable or not, was another horrible play. I wont blame him for his foul on Rip Hamilton cause that was a bad call. Also cant get mad at him for missing the 3 at the end of regulation because it wasnt a forced shot, if he doesnt shoot it they dont get a shot off.

    He did seem to pass up on a few open looks too but thankfully he didnt do so in the 2nd OT. lol

  62. Z

    CapB: Felton only had 2 TO’s tonight (well 3 actually but that last one there were 20 sec left and the game was over), hit 10-10 from the foul line and had a big 4th quarter. You guys constantly kill him for no good reason other than he didnt play a perfect game.  

    I don’t kill Felton. He’s played better than I expected him to this year. And he was, presumably, playing hurt today and logged a ton of minutes.

    But 5-17 from the field is far from perfect. In fact, it is bad. Even John Starks would concur.

  63. BigBlueAL

    Felton though did score 23 pts thanks to 10 for 10 FT shooting plus had 11 assists to only 3 to’s in 53 minutes.

    I give him credit because he looked banged up and fought thru it like a pro. Apparently from what I have read so far after the game they said he has the flu and played sick. Not quite Jordan’s Flu game but I will take it lol.

  64. Robert Silverman

    BigBlueAL: Apparently it is a stomach virus for Felton.  

    According to the post-game presser, he’s got a pretty acute case of Mozgovitis. One of the symptoms is a predilection for giving the ball on the PnR to a stone-fingered 7-foot Russkie.

  65. BigBlueAL

    I dont get what is up with Mozgov’s hands. During the World Championships he was a beast by scoring at the basket thanks in large part to his hands. He showed pretty good hands during the pre-season.

    Thinking it has to be somewhat mental with him right now.

  66. Z

    BigBlueAL: I don’t get what is up with Mozgov’s hands… Thinking it has to be somewhat mental with him right now.   

    He can’t catch passes. He can’t catch rebounds. Being 7′ tall, the only thing he really needs to be able to do is catch the ball.

    Not sure how it can be mental. He’s in there hustling, battling, doing everything right. He just doesn’t seem to have the requisite skill to play at the NBA level. Maybe in the preseason, when the top players are phoning it in, he’s able to fit in. But he seems to get faked out by his own teammate’s no-look passes to him. And I can’t think of the last rebound he got that didn’t bounce on the floor first.

  67. Thomas B.

    Z: Down the stretch it looked like Felton was trying to channel Stephon… a lot of important shots that would have been better served shot by other people.

    Well call the exorcist, because we don’t need that crap.

  68. cgreene

    I agree that this blog, in general, seems to be overly critical of Felton. “He’s played better than expected but…” actually does not do justice to how well has played statistically (significantly above his career in TS%, eFG, ast%, ORtg, DRtg all with higher usage) AND MORE IMPORTANTLY the toughness, leadership and all around great teammate-ness that he has demonstrated. He is playing in the top 10 of NBA PGs this season.

  69. CapB

    Why is Moz getting all the playing time over AR? At least AR has shown he can catch the ball.

    I dont see how he is any more lost out there than Mosgov is.

  70. BigBlueAL

    CapB: Why is Moz getting all the playing time over AR?At least AR has shown he can catch the ball.I dont see how he is any more lost out there than Mosgov is.  

    Mozgov doesnt fire up 20 footers every time he touches the ball. Nor does he try to dribble coast-to-coast after getting a rebound.

  71. rama

    CapB: Gallo was getting abused down the stretch by Prince.His defense was pretty bad and launching up a 27 foot shot was a bad idea.Yes, the box score can lie.Felton only had 2 TO’s tonight (well 3 actually but that last one there were 20 sec left and the game was over), hit 10-10 from the foul line and had a big 4th quarter.You guys constantly kill him for no good reason other than he didnt play a perfect game.  

    CapB – Gallo wasn’t getting abused; Prince was making very, very difficult shots. Wil switched onto him and Prince made the same shots over him. Gallo made a huge mistake letting Prince go left right at the end, fouling him as well. Other than that, no one could have played better D on Prince – Gallo was draped all over him on those shots.

    Also, Felton hasn’t been abused too much on KB since the second week of the season. He looked terrible at the start, then solved some problems, and has been improving in the PnR (though he’s still not great). Even Ted, who argued with me all summer about picking up Felton, conceded that he’s played well. Top Ten PG? Not sure about that – there are a lot of good PGs in the league, and we’ve seen a bunch of them toast RayRay already. But he’s solidly middle of the pack, and apparently a great teammate and good guy. We couldn’t have done better.

    But your comments are pretty ironic, killing Gallo and then giving people a hard time for “killing Ray for not playing a perfect game.”

  72. rama

    Z:
    He’s in there hustling, battling, doing everything right. He just doesn’t seem to have the requisite skill to play at the NBA level.   

    Z – I think he has the skill; you don’t make catches in the pre-season and not make catches in the regular season because of the quality of competition. Let’s give the guy some time before we decide he’s not an NBA player! Before the season we all said that if he gave us 15 minutes, 8 points, 6 boards, a few blocks, we’d all be happy. We’re not happy yet…but the season is young. Let’s see how he’s playing or March. (Or for that matter, next year…)

  73. cgreene

    Rama – I never killed Gallo, especially for his defense. I never even commented on that. I killed him in the middle of the game for totally disappearing (which he did) and taking some bad shots (which he did). I, in fact, defended him at the beginning of the game saying his teammates were missing him wide open.

    As for Felton, he IS statistically and otherwise a top 10 PG in the NBA so far in this season. The reason why I said the blog has been overly critical is because many of the statements about his play such as “solidly middle of the pack” are statistically incorrect and also to the trained eye. His PER (which I know people are doubtful of) has him 9th among PGs other advance metrics have him solidly top 10 as well. How is that “middle”?

  74. Z

    BigBlueAL:
    Mozgov doesnt fire up 20 footers every time he touches the ball…   

    That’s because Mozgov doesn’t touch the ball. He just watches it go through his hands… :)

    Seriously, though, I’m glad Randolph didn’t play much. The bench gave him a front-row seat to watch Tayshaun Prince play. They are both tall, lanky, lefties with unique skill sets. Prince’s line [31 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 0 turnovers, and 0 3 point attempts] is the kind of line Randolph should be able to put up on any given day if he ever figures his game out.

  75. JK47

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Again, Landry Fields is performing, according to Berri’s metric, among the top-ten rookies of the modern era. Y’know, just behind names like Jordan, O’Neal, Duncan, et al.He’s not a poor man’s Shawn Marion. He’s BETTER than Marion was. And he’s 22.  

    I’m not so sure Landry Fields age 22 is better than Shawn Marion age 22. Marion was pretty beastly in his age 22 season: 17.3 PPG, 10.7 RPG, .196 WS/48, 21.0 PER.

    Fields (not including today’s game) is averaging 10.8 PPG, 6.9 RPG, .134 WS/48, 16.0 PER. Marion averaged 1.7 steals and 1.4 blocks per game, while Landry is averaging 0.8 and 0.2 respectively. And of course Marion did this over a full season, while Fields has played less than a quarter of a season.

    Fields scores well in Wages of Wins because of his efficient game, but Berri’s metrics are not a be-all, end-all. Shawn Marion was a very good NBA player for a long time, and if Landry Fields turns out to be a similar player, we should be pretty excited.

  76. Z

    rama:
    Z – I think he has the skill… Let’s give the guy some time before we decide he’s not an NBA player!   

    Yeah, I know. I want him to be an NBA player. I just don’t see it. (I didn’t see much of the preseason, or the World Championships, or his Euroleague games, or his Russia games). If you’ve seen him catch the ball with your own eyes, I’ll accept that.

    His per 36 stats are actually quite respectable: 7.7 pts, 7.4 rebs. But his rebound% thought 16 games is right on par with Eddy Curry’s career rate, and his 30% turnover rate is quite consistent with what the old eye-balls have witnessed. I guess his Russian rebounding stats were quite good (10.7 per 36 last year), so you figure he had to catch the ball at some point. But his minutes were limited, for whatever reason. And who knows how they keep stats there. Documentation isn’t exactly ironclad in that part of the world :)

  77. Z-man

    I know it’s early, but looking at the standings, I am hard-pressed to find 3 teams below us that are more playoff-worthy on paper. Maybe Milwaukee, but the rest are teams we should out-compete. We need to start establishing some sort of home-court advantage, we have appeared very tight at home and I am worried that it’s in their heads now.

  78. Robert Silverman

    You’ve got to figure the top five (in some order) is going to be Orlando, Boston Miami, Atlanta & Chicago. After that, the Knicks are going to be battling Indiana, Milwaukee, DC and Charlotte for the last 3 spots. They’ve got a chance to snag the 6th seed, w/o a doubt

  79. cgreene

    Funny no one’s written much about 37-15-7 and 1 enormous block on Stuckey. Nice to have one of the best players in the NBA on the Knicks.

  80. massive

    Could it be true that Gallo is already one of the NBA’s best offensive basketball players? His 92.4% from the stripe is good for 3rd in the league, he’s 2nd in the league in turnover percentage (6.4%), his offensive rating is good for 7th (126.2), he’s 10th in the league for Offensive Win Shares (1.6) and he’s sporting a TS of .598. Albeit this is only through 17 games, but I think he’s a lot better than the eye would tell you. Also, he’s shooting 36% from deep, which I think he’ll raise to a number closer to 40%. I’m happy with how he’s doing, but I really think he can be doing better (i.e. it shouldn’t take Gallo 52 minutes to score 20 points). I personally expected him to step it up and average 23 points/36, 2-3 assists/36, and 5-7 rebounds/36. Thoughts?

  81. rama

    cgreene: Rama – I never killed Gallo, especially for his defense.I never even commented on that.I killed him in the middle of the game for totally disappearing (which he did) and taking some bad shots (which he did).I, in fact, defended him at the beginning of the game saying his teammates were missing him wide open.As for Felton, he IS statistically and otherwise a top 10 PG in the NBA so far in this season.The reason why I said the blog has been overly critical is because many of the statements about his play such as “solidly middle of the pack” are statistically incorrect and also to the trained eye.His PER (which I know people are doubtful of) has him 9th among PGs other advance metrics have him solidly top 10 as well. How is that “middle”?  

    CG – I never said you killed Gallo…or didn’t. My post quoted Z, and then I specifically directed my comments to Z, so I’m not sure why you’re so annoyed.

    As for RayRay, right now some stats do put him at the bottom of the Top Ten. Others put him more around 12-15…which is basically where I was saying he belonged: middle of the pack. Tell me who on this list you wouldn’t take instead of RayRay:

    CPaul
    RRondo
    DWilliams
    JKidd
    SNash
    RWestbrook
    JWall
    DRose
    SCurry
    AMiller
    TParker
    JNelson
    CBillups

    The first 5 or 6 are on another level. Then you’ve got young players with better speed and higher ceilings…playing slightly better as well. Then you’ve got guys who abused Ray (like Nelson in the playoffs) or who have done more over a longer period of time, like Billups. I can see an argument with a few, but no matter how you slice it, he’s not quite a Top Ten guy.

    That said, we’re cutting hairs. #9 or #13, not a big difference. I like his leadership, his well-rounded game, his toughness…and his contract. But he doesn’t belong with the first 8 or 9 on that list.

  82. Robert Silverman

    If Felton keeps this up all year, I’d take him over Miller, Parker and Billups (who is starting to show signs of age). That puts him solidly at 10, and clearly exceeds the expectations of most folks here (including yours truly)

  83. cgreene

    I thought your Gallo comments were referencing me. My bad. I am also feeling very protective of Ray right now. I just love love love the effort. And he doesn’t back down at all.
    Your list is right on. I was talking about just the first 18 games of this year not over their careers. For this season Ray has outplayed Billups, Miller, Wall and is on par probably with Nelson, Harris IMO. May not finish that way but right now that seems accurate to me.

    But, yes, we are splitting hairs (and about a good development too!)

  84. d-mar

    You know, the loss to the Hawks gave an opportunity for the naysayers to come out of the woodwork, including some of our local beat reporters, who also constantly remind us that we’re only beating teams with losing records. Meanwhile, we’ve won 6 of 7, and 5 of those wins were on the road. How many NBA teams win 5 straight road games? Sure it would be nice to start winning at home, but these road wins show me a lot about this team, and it’s about time they started getting some credit from the haters.

  85. rama

    d-mar: it’s about time they started getting some credit from the haters.  

    Absolutely, but you know they won’t. I forgot to post this during the game, but it was a typical Robert S evening: they got hosed by the refs in regulation. I really thought that the refs were trying to give the game to the Pistons down the stretch…to the point that Wallace tried to foul and they didn’t call it! BS calls, none going the Knicks way.

    Well, flip side is that it’s not so bad that they have to earn the calls. It should give them an edge.

  86. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    In case you’re interested:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=mariosh01&y1=2001&p2=fieldla01&y2=2011

    The difference in PER is directly related to usage and scoring volume. I’d rather take Fields’s absurd TS% than Marion’s high shot volume. The difference of .114 in TS% is the difference between your average player and an All-NBA first-teamer. Even though Marion’s got him beat in all other areas (and you’re right that I was a bit hyperbolic there), Fields’s efficiency is out of this world.

  87. Z-man

    rama:
    Absolutely, but you know they won’t.I forgot to post this during the game, but it was a typical Robert S evening: they got hosed by the refs in regulation.I really thought that the refs were trying to give the game to the Pistons down the stretch…to the point that Wallace tried to foul and they didn’t call it!BS calls, none going the Knicks way.Well, flip side is that it’s not so bad that they have to earn the calls.It should give them an edge.  

    Hey, that’s Knick Bavetta you’re talking about! (see Tim Hardaway)

  88. Nick C.

    re: Gallo, when I saw his line I was amazed b/c he was invisible all game other than, a shambling few forays looking for a call; constantly having Tayshaun f’in Prince score over him (and double his season high to boot); the shot at the end of regulation; finally in OT. 12 shots in 53 minutes you have to wonder what it is he does somtimes, its maddening how he gets invisible for long long stretches, and in part that may be his teammates willfully ignoring him, but still. On D while Prince may have ultimately scored over WC, part of defense is not letting your man get the ball time and time and time and time again right where he wants it. I really like Gallo but sometimes he makes it very difficult.

  89. Nick C.

    On the Felton list I think there is a clear line after Curr. As for now Felton would fit right in that next quartet, even if they may have had better careers, honors etc. Also with nothing approximating a competent backup to run the offense Felton is even more important to his team than lust his numbers would indicate. I just hope he doesn’t get run into the ground by February like you know who.

  90. njasdjdh

    rama, you must really hate Felton (as well as a lot of guys on that list) to have Kidd as high as you do.

  91. Frank

    massive: Could it be true that Gallo is already one of the NBA’s best offensive basketball players? His 92.4% from the stripe is good for 3rd in the league, he’s 2nd in the league in turnover percentage (6.4%), his offensive rating is good for 7th (126.2), he’s 10th in the league for Offensive Win Shares (1.6) and he’s sporting a TS of .598. Albeit this is only through 17 games, but I think he’s a lot better than the eye would tell you.

    My issue with this is that many of these statistical measures do not punish you for disappearing for long stretches at a time. Regardless of his good TS, low TO-rate, Gallo definitely disappears for quarters or even halves at a time.

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: I’d rather take Fields’s absurd TS% than Marion’s high shot volume. The difference of .114 in TS% is the difference between your average player and an All-NBA first-teamer. Even though Marion’s got him beat in all other areas (and you’re right that I was a bit hyperbolic there), Fields’s efficiency is out of this world.  

    Ah, the old David Lee discussion. An impossible decision between high-volume average efficiency and low-volume high efficiency since they rely on each other. Hard to win with a whole team full of 13.7 usage guys. Each team probably needs a Marion AND a Fields in order to be special. In his current incarnation Fields is a great 3rd-4th option on the court — question is whether he can take the Lee step and become a 2nd option sort of guy. Right now he is playing off Felton and Amare (and doing it VERY well).

  92. Frank

    Re: Felton — naturally we’ve only played about 20% of a season, but as of right now, it’s not a stretch to say that he is playing better overall than Miller, Nelson, Billups, and even Stephen Curry. As much as we all wax poetic about Curry, he absolutely gets abused at the defensive end to the tune of a PER-against of 21.9. Felton also has a higher TS, assist rate, etc. Certainly not a slam-dunk at the current time that Curry is better than Felton. Younger, yes. Prettier to watch, yes. But statistically and certainly defensively Ray Ray might have the edge.

    http://www.82games.com/1011/10GSW2.HTM#bypos

    Don’t get me wrong – I’d trade Ray for Curry in a heartbeat. But the fact that we’re talking about him as being somewhere in the top 1/3 of PGs right now is GREAT.

  93. rama

    njasdjdh: rama, you must really hate Felton (as well as a lot of guys on that list) to have Kidd as high as you do.  

    Are you serious? I’m tempted to go all Ted Nelson on you and drop 12 or 13 question marks. He’s definitely in the twilight of his career, but he’s still a better PG than Ray, both by the eye by the numbers – assists being the most important for a PG:

    http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Assists.jsp?league=00&season=22010&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=

    He makes passes Ray couldn’t even imagine. Do you not recall him taking a very average Nets team to the Finals (KMartin, RJ, Kittles for God’s sake) not once but TWICE?? Not even Nash could take that group to the Finals. Hell, Nash couldn’t even take the Suns to the Finals, and they had a significantly superior team. His scoring is down, but he has the top Assist/TO ratio in the league, is boarding solidly (ranked in the top few PGs), and is a leader in steals – an indicator that his D is still passable (so to speak). He’s one of the all-time best PGs.

    Frank, you’re right about Curry’s D. You’re also right that we’d all take him in a minute over Ray. But the point (again, so to speak!) is the same: whether you put Ray 9th or 15th, we’ve got to be happy with him.

  94. Garson

    after watching Fields … i think its harder to replace a glue guy like him, then finding a player like melo.

    that being said.. i would NOT trade gallo and fields for melo. We are finally seeing a fluid , ball moving offense in which 6 players are avg 10 or more points. We are seeing more instances where felton is finding amare either curling to the basket or in a position to throw it down.

    The fact that we still have one more max contract to add is very promosing… trading a guy like fields, that does not need the ball would hurt our team.

  95. Brian Cronin

    I’m sure Fabian just meant this season, rama. Not Jason Kidd in general (as I think everyone knows he’s one of the top point guards in NBA history).

  96. Abasi

    I agree – trading Gallo or Fields for Melo is like digging a hole in the ground to store dirt. The Knicks must see how far they can go with the assembled talent and then add where they are the weakest: Center and Backup Point Guard.

    If we were to do a Melo for Fields and Gallo today, the Knicks would begin to lose by scores of 195-182, with 34 wins at the end of the season.

    Fields has the potential to become to become a more productive David Lee – he represents the future (so far).

    The Knicks can be a 45-win team (as currently constituted) if Gallo stops his disappearence acts and D’Antoni decides to address the defensive issues. The knicks just can’t afford to let opponents score at will on the paint.

    Garson: after watching Fields … i think its harder to replace a glue guy like him, then finding a player like melo.that being said.. i would NOT trade gallo and fields for melo. We are finally seeing a fluid , ball moving offense in which 6 players are avg 10 or more points. We are seeing more instances where felton is finding amare either curling to the basket or in a position to throw it down.The fact that we still have one more max contract to add is very promosing… trading a guy like fields, that does not need the ball would hurt our team.  (Quote)

  97. Robert Silverman

    Abasi:

    The Knicks can be a 45-win team (as currently constituted) if Gallo stops his disappearing acts and D’Antoni decides to address the defensive issues. The knicks just can’t afford to let opponents score at will on the paint.  

    I think the defensive issues aren’t b/c the coach isn’t ‘addressing’ them. One, Turiaf’s been their best defending big, and he’s hurt again. Two, the players who could be their 2nd/3rd best interior defenders have been the most disappointing — namely, Mozgov and Randolph. They’ve both been so godawful on the offensive end (not just ‘bad’ or ‘below average’, truly putrid) that having them play extended mins is impossible.

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