Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, October 2, 2014

2011 Game Thread: Knicks @ Magic

For your in-post game thoughts.

193 comments on “2011 Game Thread: Knicks @ Magic

  1. rama

    Firsties.

    Spree, I hate that practice, but this one”s for you. Here’s hoping you have a better 2011.

  2. d-mar

    Man, is Charles Barkley still mad about Mark Jackson pushing the broom around after the Knicks swept the Sixers years ago? He’s STILL trashing the Knicks tonight on TNT, after his brilliant preseason prediction that the Nets would make the playoffs and the Knicks wouldn’t.

  3. BigBlueAL

    d-mar: Man, is Charles Barkley still mad about Mark Jackson pushing the broom around after the Knicks swept the Sixers years ago? He’s STILL trashing the Knicks tonight on TNT, after his brilliant preseason prediction that the Nets would make the playoffs and the Knicks wouldn’t.  

    Worst part about Knicks on TNT, listening to Barkley rip the Knicks needlessly. Nice to see Kenny Smith at least stand up for the Knicks a bit lol.

  4. David Crockett

    Lot’s of guy’s yelling “Hey!” tonight. It’s like they’re paying homage to Steve Francis.

  5. marxster

    AR doesn’t contribute anything but dumb plays and bad shots. He’s not going to play unless he smartens up.

  6. BigBlueAL

    Holy shit how was that not a foul on Felton’s missed layup????

    Also both teams shooting bricks left and right from the 3pt line. Bad ending to the quarter by the Knicks, again no surprise it happened once the bench came in.

  7. iserp

    League pass has a 1-day promotion including the code “NBAHOLIDAY”, but it might work only for international viewers, i am not sure.

  8. Doug

    Guys, I found out about firstrow.net a few days ago. EIGHT different streams of the game to choose from.

  9. BigBlueAL

    Frank O.:
    What did he say? Glad I missed it…  

    Pre-game doing his usual completely dismissing the Knicks. Kenny Smith trying to praise them but Barkley didnt want to have any of it. Typical stuff. Waiting for Barkley to admit his Nets for 7th in the East prediction was ridiculous.

  10. BigBlueAL

    Knicks offense this week has been pretty brutal so far. Not good when you are playing teams as good as Miami and Orlando.

  11. alknowles

    Gallo has such an ugly drive to the hoop. He’s lucky to be bailed out again with a reach-in foul.

  12. tastycakes

    BigBlueAL: Refs doing a great job of taking Amar’e out of the game.Im about to turn this crap off.  

    Refs doing a good job of keeping Amar’e in the game, considering he reacted like a freakazoid on that 3rd foul and could easily have been thrown out.

    Pathetic offensive display thus far, it’s like early season Knicks. Guys out partying late at EPCOT Center?

  13. Robert Silverman

    Boy is Felton screwing the pooch. I mean, he’s been whacked on at least three of those drives, but still

  14. Frank O.

    Robert Silverman:
    I’d play him in this game  

    Seriously, they’re running Williams at center. Mosgov might foul out quickly, but at least there would be a big body in there, and Howard’s not great from the line in general.
    Williams is getting eaten alive.
    Meanwhile the perimeter d has been horrible tonight.
    TD has played like doodoo, Ray has played poorly and Fields has been weak too.
    Gallo is utterly absent.
    Not sure why this team seems to take a period or two off each game lately. Can’t get away with that with good teams.

  15. tastycakes

    There have been no positives to speak of.
    Only negatives.
    I think I am lucky that I will miss the 4th quarter.

  16. Frank O.

    BigBlueAL: I hate Barkley most of the times, but this half-time segment was hilarious.  

    Yeah, except there wasn’t one complete thought expressed. It was all talk over

  17. DS

    marxster: Oh boy, get ready for Charles…  

    Oh my god. Those 4 didn’t stop talking for 8 minutes straight. It took 8 minutes for Charles to name who he considers contenders in the NBA. I’ve never missed Kelly Tripuka so badly.

  18. Doug

    Kerr very quick to call Fields’ kick out to Felton a “bad pass”… then the replay shows Fields nutmegged Jameer Nelson. “OBVIOUSLY VERY LUCKY”, Kerr says.

  19. Frank O.

    Knicks need to put the ball in the right place for the point up shooters. T/oo many passes are flying off target and pulling spot up guys out of their position

  20. JK47

    Good lord Felton is awful today. Landry Fields is disappearing on us and Ronny Turiaf is simply bad at basketball.

  21. marxster

    Frank O.:
    I just said the same exact thing to my wife.:)  

    Wow, your wife actually watches the game with you? Mine always walks away in protest when I put on the game!

  22. Nick C.

    This is theoretically still a winnable game but for the life of me I can’t see how based on how they have played.

  23. Frank O.

    my wife an I had our first important date at MSG, game 5 in the 1999 NBA finals.
    Her company was a venture capital firm and we were guests in the corporate suite.
    Tough loss; great date.
    She loves basketball, but she hasn’t watched as much these last few years as they have been so bad.
    But this year, now that the Knicks are playing well, she watches the games and gets as excited as me.

  24. Frank O.

    Some one was complaining earlier about the KNicks bench, but they seem to be playing well in the second half.

  25. ltmurray

    Yeah pretty remarkable that the Knicks are still in this one considering how terrible they’ve looked…and nice to see them inch closer even after Amare had to sit out with his 5th foul.

  26. tastycakes

    Yeah, chipping away, but bad turnovers and missed free throws and it sort of doesn’t feel like they should win.

    But hey, we get some stops and somebody catches fire …. we’ll see what happens.

  27. Frank O.

    What the hell was Gallo doing there watching that ball. He backed away and let Howard have a clear path to the ball

  28. Nick C.

    Crap I was hoping Howard would go to the line. Now the either way calls go you know which way. I see I typed too soon.

  29. Frank O.

    And then they give up another 3.
    God damn.
    They are making small errors in crunch time that are killing the come backs

  30. Frank O.

    Some of this is on Felton. His execution has been off.
    He has been a difference maker when he’s sharp. he needs to be a better floor general

  31. rama

    A lot of this is on Felton. Just a terrible game tonight. As many TOs as assists. Some flat-out chucking. Can’t get a bad game from both Felton and Fields and survive.

  32. JK47

    Landry Fields has 0 points, 4 rebounds and 2 assists in 27 minutes. I mean, I know he’s a low-usage guy but that is kind of ridiculous.

  33. Nick C.

    That sucked. I guess a positive about how far this team has come is that a few years ago you know who would be patting himself on the back about the team being close in the 4th.

  34. d-mar

    Anyone else getting a little worried that Fields is sort of hitting a rookie wall after 32 games? He’s just having zero impact on the game, which you can’t have from one of your starters. I’m hoping he’ll bounce back, but right now he’s a non-factor on both ends.

  35. JK47

    Well, pretty much everybody sucked except Wilson Chandler, Shawne Williams and Amar’e, and we still managed to get it pretty close at the end there. Still, I’m with Doug– blugggggghhhhhhh.

    One of our problems seems to be that we’re playing a starting lineup with a PG, three SFs and a PF, and then our best bench player is yet another SF. Four of the eight players in our rotation are really small forwards by nature.

  36. ess-dog

    These games are getting annoying. First Ilgauskas, now Anderson getting easy buckets. No boxing out.
    I said in august that it was a problem that our 3 best players were all power forwards (meaning Gallo, Amare, and AR.) But you could also throw Chandler in there and even Fields. I love them all, but we clearly are deficient in needing a big and another good guard.
    It feels ridiculous to keep typing it, but there you go.
    And Gallo is really tough to watch these days. He just looks so indecisive and overmatched. Fields has the excuse of hitting the rookie wall, that’s understandable. Ray has hit a bit of a rough patch but he’s solid. TD is just not consistently good.
    I think we should just keep going to Moz. 10 minutes a night is enough just to get him in a rhythm.
    I mean, I still don’t think I’d pull AR for Ridnour but we need someone like that who can contribute meaningful minutes.
    But really giving up key O boards, put backs (as well as missing free throws) is just killing us.

  37. d-mar

    JK47: Well, pretty much everybody sucked except Wilson Chandler, Shawne Williams and Amar’e, and we still managed to get it pretty close at the end there.Still, I’m with Doug– blugggggghhhhhhh.

    Wow, that is pretty amazing, 3 of our 5 starters played like crap and we were within 3 in the 4th quarter. But it was sort of like the Heat game – were the Magic really gonna give up the lead and blow the game? Just didn’t seem like it would happen.

  38. hoolahoop

    The good news is that it has become painfully obvious where the Knicks’ are lacking talent.
    Hint: It ain’t a ballhog scorer.

  39. daJudge

    I’m not so down for these reasons. Orlando is a very good team. We’re a good team. We will make some adjustments, add a few players and I think we will be right there. We need a big to play center (a real center), a back up point guard and another consistent scorer. Guess what–we have the cap space and I think DW will make the moves. I hope and trust that coach doesn’t plan on continuing with the line up JK-47 summarized so nicely at #121. Having said all this, it was very tough watching Gallo tonight. Landry gets a Mulligan. My general view is that Wilson has really improved, but Gallo is kind of stuck. I didn’t see much movement w/o the ball. I hope this changes soon. If not, we have options.

  40. nicos

    After this game Chandler is now shooting 3′s better than Gallo- 59-157 (.375) vs. 61-164 (.371). I have to say I find Gallo very frustrating- I know he’s young but his effort level is really inconsistent- he played with some energy in the third and that was about it. I can live with poor shooting nights and the occasional defensive lapses but I don’t like watching him not going after loose balls, standing around on offense (not always his fault but still…), etc… Going into the season I’d have said it was a no-brainer that he winds up a better player than Chandler; now I’m not so sure. If it wasn’t for the fact that that Chandler stands to make a lot of money in the off-season, choosing who you’d rather include in a trade would be pretty tough.

  41. Caleb

    Knicks have been remarkably consistent – beating teams they should beat, losing to better teams. Very few outliers – Cleveland, I guess… blowing out OKC… maybe the last Boston game, where they played as well as they have all year.

    Tonight? Chandler was great. Felton awful.

    I really didn’t like that 4th quarter stretch with a lineup of Turiaf, Williams, Chandler, Felton & Douglas. Ouch.

    I know I sound like a broken record, but when Turkoglu is killing you – Ryan Anderson grievously wounding you – and you’re being absolutely demolished on the boards for the second night in a row – why isn’t Anthony Randolph in the game?

  42. JK47

    I’ve been a pretty vocal “get Melo” advocate, but I’m changing my tune now. We have at least three guys who are quality starting-caliber small forwards– Fields, Gallinari and Chandler, and a fourth guy off the bench who is looking like a keeper, Shawne Williams.

    Keep two of those guys and convert the other two into a true SG who can drive to the hole and a F/C who can grab some rebounds, and we’ll be in business. Fix the backup PG thing by drafting one next year. Keeping all three of Fields, Gallinari and Chandler seems like the wrong move to me in the long term. Yes, all three will probably develop a bit more, but you can’t give all three of those guys starters’ minutes and have a balanced attack.

  43. Z

    @128

    Yeah. I have to say, a few threads ago someone proposed a trade with the Wiz. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of acquiring Kirk Hinrich. It would close the door on Melo, so it probably won’t happen, but that would be a trade that turns Curry into something realistic AND useful. I doubt Wash would include McGhee, but if they threw in a pick for our taking on the extra year of Kirk, that could be a real nice move, both short and long term.

  44. crazchino

    ok.. is it just me, or was dwight howard moving on EVERY pick he set? he either stepped into it or tried to move his body into players on EVERY pick.
    unless i missed a rule change or something.

  45. Ben R

    One big differnece between this game and the Miami game is that even as we were closing the gap it felt like we were worse than Miami but tonight I really think we might be a better team than Orlando. I am not impressed with their team at all.

    This was a frustrating game but our shooters missed alot of open threes in the first half, we missed key free throws down the stretch, Amare only played 31 minutes due to foul trouble (the Knicks were +5 with him on the court, and we had bad games from three of our five starters.

    Honestly I think we stand a really good chance against Atlanta, Orlando or Chicago in the first round.

  46. JK47

    Meh, I don’t like Hinrich at all. He’s perfectly mediocre in just about every phase of the game and has an undesirable contract. And I highly doubt they will want to give us their surefire lottery pick in next year’s draft.

    I’d rather just let Curry’s contract come off the books than add a guy who would eat cap space and only bring a very marginal improvement.

  47. ess-dog

    I don’t know @132,

    Orlando is rollin pretty deep with useful players. The upgrade to Bass at pf is great for them. Anderson is quite effective off the bench. Reddick is a great shooter and he’s their 4th guard. Arenas could be lethal as a 6th man for them. Richardson can shoot the lights out and Turk is a do-everything guy at his best. All their guards can handle, shoot and penetrate. They could be extremely good by April.

    Hey, I just made myself feel a bit better about the loss tonight.

  48. Doug

    Caleb:
    I know I sound like a broken record, but when Turkoglu is killing you – Ryan Anderson grievously wounding you – and you’re being absolutely demolished on the boards for the second night in a row – why isn’t Anthony Randolph in the game?  

    I share your frustration. At this point, the best explanation I can come up with is that D’Antoni will not play you unless you can do your job in his offense. Until that glorious day where something clicks and Randolph finally “gets it”, we’ll be tearing our hair out over missed defensive rebounds and points in the paint.

  49. ess-dog

    On the other hand, if Felton just has an “average” game then we could’ve easily won tonight. You could argue that the starters are basically fine and that the bench is what’s killing us. TD still looks terrible and Turiaf is clearly fading…

  50. rama

    Ben R: One big differnece between this game and the Miami game is that even as we were closing the gap it felt like we were worse than Miami but tonight I really think we might be a better team than Orlando. I am not impressed with their team at all. This was a frustrating game but our shooters missed alot of open threes in the first half, we missed key free throws down the stretch, Amare only played 31 minutes due to foul trouble (the Knicks were +5 with him on the court, and we had bad games from three of our five starters. Honestly I think we stand a really good chance against Atlanta, Orlando or Chicago in the first round.  (Quote)

    I totally agree. Even as we closed the gap in Miami, I never thought we would actually win. It would have been a miracle. But I thought we might actually catch Orlando and sneak away with a victory…until we started missing free throws.

    I think Orlando takes us in a 7-game series without too much trouble, but we have room to make moves in the next two years, and they’re stuck. I think we’re better as soon as next year.

    But the Heat? I am starting to fear it’s going to be early-90s Bulls/Knicks all over again.

    Does LeBron secretly pine to play baseball?

  51. Ben R

    January’s not too bad. We should be able to go about .500 in January. I figure the two Spurs games, the Heat game and the Lakers game should be losses, the Indiana, Sacremento, Washington and Detroit games should be wins. That’s 4-4.

    Then we’re better than Pheonix (2 games), Houston and Portland so let’s say about 3-1 out of those. That puts us at 7-5 for the month.

    Then there are three games against teams we are even with but on the road: @Atlanta, @Utah and @OKC, depending on how we do on those will determine the outcome, if we lose all three then 7-8 for the month, steal one and we are over .500, steal 2 or all 3 and it’s a great month.

  52. GHenman

    I think we most likely split with Phoenix. We’ve already lost to Houston and Portland at home, so I wouldn’t count those as automatic wins either. I think 7-8 would be acceptable, but 5-10 is very possible. We really need to take care of business against the weaker teams we play .

  53. GHenman

    How about Blatche and Hinrich for Curry, Randolph and Mason? I think the change in scenery helps everyone involved.

  54. iserp

    Mozgov should’ve played some minutes, even if he fouled out in 5 min. He is a body to push Dwight Howard, and not getting killed in the boards, and i am fine with DW12 shooting free throws instead of dunking on us.

    Nice game for Chandler. Mediocre game for Felton and Stoudemire. Fields and Gallo were invisible and should try to be more of a factor.

    I feel that Fields and Gallo pass the ball very well (for example i saw Gallo getting STAT the ball when he had a mismatch with Arenas or Turkoglu), but the rest of the team don’t pass the ball back, and that has something to do with them being invisible. Felton just runs set plays; when Chandler gets the ball usually that’s it; and if Stat is in trouble, he usually passes back to Felton. But on the other hand, Fields and Gallo can be exasperatingly unaggressive; Gallo drove 2 or 3 times and then he set for a bad pass instead of forcing it a bit more for the bucket or the foul. Not to mention he has some reluctance to initiate the offense (maybe he is better at initiating the offense when the ball is moving, but if he isn’t getting those kind of balls, he has to try something else to keep Orlando’s defense honest). D’Antoni also has to give Fields the confidence to try something for himself from time to time. At least Gallo made a couple of good defensive plays.

  55. Nick C.

    GHenman: The January schedule is brutal.  (Quote)

    We thought that about December and came out with only losses to Boston, Miami, Orlando and Cleveland (ouch). It may well be that most other teams fans see the NYK on the schedule and feel lucky if they can win.

  56. jon abbey

    I haven’t complained about the officiating once all year, but Amare really got hosed in this one, especially in the second quarter. he had to leave with 6 minutes to go and NY down 7, and they ended the half down 18, that was pretty much the ballgame right there. and it’s even more of a shame because he was out-Howarding Howard at the time, four blocks in the first half. a perennial All-Star should get more respect, very irritating.

  57. jon abbey

    Nick C.:
    We thought that about December and came out with only losses to Boston, Miami, Orlando and Cleveland (ouch).It may well be that most other teams fans see the NYK on the schedule and feel lucky if they can win.  

    the difference is December was mostly at home and January is mostly on the road. I know we’ve been playing well on the road, but still.

  58. daJudge

    #131-I thought there were many moving screens as well. Maybe if the Knicks fought through the screens instead of switching they would pick up calls. I’m not really sure if they were doing so because I wasn’t focusing too much on that. I would really be opposed to trading for Henrich. He’s just not so good and it would waste our space. As many of you have been saying—maybe we have too many 3′s and need to send one off to better meet our other needs. I’ve been opposed to sending Gallo, Wilson or Landry, but maybe one needs to be traded. While that sounds knee jerk after the last game, it may just be a matter of too many 3′s, no 1′s. IMO Turiaf would be great as a back up 1, but probably can not be considered a starter.

  59. CapB

    Frustrating game to lose but Knicks have deficincies. Tough game for Felton but I though he had a bunch of shots that just didn’t drop. Gallo disappeared yet again and at this point he looks like the one I would trade. Wilson is too valuable right now. At the very least gallo should be coming off the bench.

    Rebounds hurt us yet again, we need a big guy to board

  60. rama

    I think people are allowing their frustration with Gallo to cloud their judgment.

    I am definitely one of those frustrated; I see a potential star who seems to lack BB IQ sometimes – a fallaway jumper over a guy six inches shorter? A drive and kick once you’re already at the basket? But I also see, in last night’s game for instance, above average defense, 7 boards, a blocked shot, a steal. I also see 10 points on 5 shots – a typically efficient game.

    That last part is the reason we’re frustrated: if he often scores so efficiently, why won’t he shoot more? Why can’t he learn to be more consistently aggressive? Beats me…but I do know that if, for instance, he was the primary offensive option on a weak team, he’d become a star pretty quickly. Because he’d put up 18 shots – he’d have to – and score 30 on a regular basis.

    So, as for trading him? No, despite my frustration. He is young and has huge potential. He may never get there. But if we see him putting up 30 night after night in Denver, and playing strong D (how come no one noted that he was the one who slowed down the King on Tuesday, and that Wil was the one getting abused by Bosh?)…I’ll be sick to my stomach.

    I’m frustrated with him, frustrated with the team. But let’s be rational here: our point shot 6-22. (Seems like he should get some blame for Gallo not getting shots last night!) And Landry scored 0 points. Our guards – and our bench, when Amare went out – killed us last night.

    So, I don’t worry about our guards, and we all have been crying out to improve the bench (and develop/find a 5 when Amare has to sit). Nothing has changed. We don’t need to unload a 3 – unless to address one of those needs.

  61. Caleb

    re: trades, there’s never any point in saying “we should trade A or B.” It’s always about saying, “We need C or D… and who is expendable?”

    In the Knicks case, they have four good young players whose best position is SF (I include Anthony Randolph here). Obviously, those guys are the trade bait. But they are all valuable and it would be foolish to sell them on the cheap, just for a minor upgrade like a backup PG. They’re worth way, way too much over the next few years, just to go from, say, 42 wins to 45 this year.

    On the other hand, if you can get good value – like a starting quality center, or a solid lottery pick – at a decent salary that doesn’t clog up your cap – then sure, anyone’s tradeable.

    Fields is the only one who can really fit at SG, and has 3 more years on a rookie deal, so I’d hold him back if at all possible. Randolph’s actual value is probably higher than his trade value at this point, so I wouldn’t be shopping him.

    But there’s no reason to rush any deal. Unless another team bowls over the Knicks, just keep everyone. Unless the lockout ends with radically different rules, they can always sign and trade Chandler next summer, or re-sign him at something workable. They could do that and still have $5-10 million left over for a real center. Tyson Chandler? Sam Dalembert? Or take on extra salary in a trade for some disgruntled mega-star. Or just throw someone decent a big one-year salary, and reload for a run at Paul, Howard, etc. in 2012.

    Stoudemire can always play the bulk of minutes at center, and Fields can play his minutes at SG, so you still have 96 minutes to divide. That’s fine, even if AR emerges from the doghouse.

  62. StevenU

    I posted in the previous game thread about Dantonis stubborn refusal to adapt game to game based on matchups. After watching Z tear us apart in the first quarter and going into a game against Howard it just seemed so obvious to me to start a center-Turiaf or Mosgov would be totally fine. Not because I think either would be the key to the game but in order to allow a few mins of guarding Howard-a poor scorer-one on one and not allowing him to go wild on the offensive glass or play into the Magic primary game plan on offense of utilizing Howard as a huge decoy to set up open 3 pt shooters. Even more important to to insure that Amare does not get into early foul trouble OR stand there defenseless in fear of fouls allowing easy baskets arpund the hoop.
    At 19-11 Knicks the first quarter, I said to my friend sitting next to me, this is fools gold, the Magic have already dominated the offensive glass and missed several easy shots inside and open 3s.
    Then the Magic went a a huge run, turned the game and despite the cosmetic comeback, the Knicks are imply not good enough to overcome a lousy half against an elite team.
    Howard looked like Wilt, and Brandon Bass looked like Karl Malone. It’s not as if this is an isolated incident, this is a pattern. And, the biggest piece of the pattern is that Dantoni is simply too stubborn to be flexible in his game planning.
    I even saw a piece in the Post Knicks blog earlier in the day when Dantoni said that it was essential that Amare not get into foul trouble early, and that the Knicks might have to adjust matchups. Waiting till the problem you’re trying to avoid is already happening before addressing it makes no sense. Being proactive does.
    Yes, they lack a back up PG, and Turiaf’s health is a concern, but this team is too talented to think that playing close games against good teams count as moral victories. Especially when the same problems kill the team over and over.

  63. StevenU

    I would hate them to trade Turiaf unless it’s for a better center, and if I ever see Toney Douglass set someone up for an easy hoop I might pass out/
    TD is a great defender but his playmaking is so awful he makes Nate Robinson seem like a great point guard. I cringe everytime he has the ball. Yeah, he gets hot once in a while but he is a terrible offensive player. I really thought Mason would be an adequate back up point and I could not stand Duhon as a starter but right now he looks like a perfectly decent option as a back up. Ridnour could be a even better-neither one of them is worth Turiaf.

  64. d-mar

    @153 I think D’Antoni will not sacrifice offense for defense, which for this team makes sense. Mozgov kills the offense with his bad hands and inability to finish. That being said, I was in support of throwing him out there for a few minutes to hack Dwight and piss him off and hopefully throw up FT bricks. Was also wondering if D’Antoni would pull a hack-a-Dwight strategy with about 2:30 left, esp. after J-Rich hit that dagger 3 to put them up 6.

  65. StevenU

    dmar-of course you are right-that’s really my point-sometimes-to win the game-strategy has to be altered-deviating from his plan A (even when he himself knows it’s likely to fail) is simply not in Dantonis arsenal. To me, that is not a very good coach no matter how well he is able to execute plan A. Just because we’ve been conditioned to expect the team to suck over these last few years, let’s please stop pretending they are overachieving-they have the 5th or 6 best talent in the east and they are in 6th place. If anything, had Milwaukee not had so many injuries they’d likely be ahead of the Knicks as well.
    When STAT was on the floor the Knicks were plus 5. One could easily argue that more time on the floor with a center-ANY CENTER-would have kept him on the floor more than 32 minutes. Even if all the center does is use fouls and get out of the way on offense.
    It’s not as if we all haven’t seen Mosgovs hands of stone. Still, he looked like a totally different player on the Russian team, and perfectly serviceable at both ends. I really think he needs some run to find his groove. He is a decent player and whatever we all might wish, this team’s ceiling is 44-48 wins and a first round exit. There is no good reason not to at least try to develop Mosgov and/or AR.
    I am not talking about major minutes-just like 8-10 a game at most and with the primary purpose being that it will allow STAT to play aggressively at both ends; when he does the Knicks are pretty good but when he plays like DLee on defense the team is pathetic.

  66. stratomatic

    Current thoughts:

    1. Felton – Reversion to the mean is a bitch. He has been shooting poorly for 8-9 games now. He needs to realize he’s not a legitimate #2 scoring option (even on this team) despite the fact that he was rolling early in the season. It’s time for him to get more selective about his shooting, focus on play making, and up the efficiency again.

    2. I understand small ball, trying to put your 5 best players on the court etc… and realize that we are undersized when we use Amare as the C and Chandler at the 4, but sometimes the tradeoff is so obviously and preposterously against us D’Antoni has to adjust.

    When a team is facing Howard, getting totally demolished on the boards and abused in the middle by multiple players to the point of embarassment, Amare is in foul trouble, etc… and the coach chooses to put Chandler and Shawn Williams on Howard instead of Turiaf, Mosgov, or Randolph there is something wrong with the coach PERIOD!

    D’Antoni’s lack of flexibility and all or nothing attitude about playing players has been hurting the team for 3 years. I am beginning to understand why that level of stubborness caused conflict with Kerr and lead to him leaving the Suns.

    3. I still like our team. We have a glaring hole at C and need a backup PG, but we have some nice young pieces with upside and are very competitive even when they are getting blown out. No quit at all.

    4. Even if we find a C, I’m not sure D’Antoni will play him anyway UNLESS he can shoot well from beyond the arc (and I’m not totally kidding). His system is so geared towards creating space for Amare and Felton to operate in the pick and roll and also have the ability to kick the ball out to shooters, where does a traditional C fit?

    5. I am totally on board with Calebs thoughts about trades etc… WE should be patient unless we get a good deal from a long term perspective.

  67. ess-dog

    DW on 1050 soon.
    I agree with Caleb re: trades. I think the expendable players right now are TD and Mozgov. Reasons: Both are not young and have less room for improvement. Neither are fulfilling their roles (TD can’t play the backup pg effectively and Moz just isn’t the ideal center for D’Antoni.). Both are cheap and tradable and not part of the key young core. Perhaps we can get veterans with good contracts at these positions of need for those 2 and Curry if need be?

  68. StevenU

    Stratomatic-THANK YOU! Excellent post.
    I have been harping on Dantonis lack of flexibility for days to the extent that people here seem to think it’s some personal vendetta I have against him. It is all basketball and nothing personal. Kerr finally realized that this shortcoming of Dantonis is huge.
    You are also right about Felton-he can still be very good on this team but when he gets 22 shots and Gallo has 5 it is a problem.
    I just hate to see teams give up on young players too fast and Mosgov has not had an adequate opportunity to adjust to the speed and size he’s never faced. He really is a decent player whose confidence is in tatters.
    Carmelo Anthony brings none of what this team needs so desperately and so obviously: playmaking, interior defense, and rebounding. We are a back up center, and a back up PG away from being a top 4 team in the east. I’d hate to break up the team, sacrifice a 3rd season in a row for some pipe dream. And even in a dream, a team built around STAT and Melo is not going to be any better at what they suck at now
    As awful as TD is as a playmaker, he could still excel in a smaller role strictly as a defensive game changer-he just can not play PG even for 5 minutes a game.

  69. StevenU

    dmar: “That being said, I was in support of throwing him out there for a few minutes to hack Dwight and piss him off and hopefully throw up FT bricks. Was also wondering if D’Antoni would pull a hack-a-Dwight strategy…”
    That’s all I am talking about. It’s pretty simple and if you see it and I see it and half the people here see it why can’t Dantoni see it???

  70. CapB

    Once again you guys are quick to throw felton under the bus. He logs too many minutes, doesn’t have a legitimate backup, he is still 30 games into a new system and new team.

    Yes lately he has been hoisting some bad long range shots, but he has been huge for them even in some of their recent losses. They def don’t beat chicago without him.

  71. stratomatic

    CapB,

    Personally, I’m not throwing Felton under the bus. I thought he was an upgrade over Felton before the season started and I have been pleasantly surprised because I seem to have under rated him.

    It’s just that his very hot start from the field was always a question mark as far as sustainabilty goes because his long term record is not as impressive.

    Throw in some development and little help from the system amd he’s probably more of 35%-36% shooter from beyond the arc than a 38%-39% long term and his TS% will probably stabilize in the slightly above average range instead of quite a bit above average. That’s nothing to sneeze at given that he’s tough as nails, game as all hell, etc… but he should not be shooting as much as he did last night. He has to understand that he’s not a #2 scorer.

  72. ess-dog

    OK here are a few unsexy trades that could help us this year but not hurt us in the long run. Once it’s clear that we aren’t trading for Melo then we can pull these at the deadline:

    1. http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=29l2dn9

    Udrih and Head are both guards that can help us off the bench and all we give up is TD and junk. Why for Sacto? TD gives them much needed points off the bench and they save some $ short term. Plus, they can’t get any worse.

    2. http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3549ou4

    Amundson is really unsexy but he’s a vet who can rebound, block shots and make a few shots. And he knows the system. Carney can be cut or just take Mason’s job as bench sitter. Why for GS? The new coach wants to build a more traditional halfcourt team and they will take a risk on a project with upside.

    Who says no Thomas? WHO??

  73. BigBlueAL

    The same small lineup that cost the Knicks in the 2nd quarter when Amar’e was out was the same lineup that almost brought them all the way back in the 4th quarter when Amar’e went out with 5 fouls.

  74. Caleb

    @163 It’s probably a pipe dream but sure, that works. I’m an Okafor fan, relatively speaking. Any trade that gets Chris Paul while keeping 3 of our A-level young players, is a big winner. Hopefully NOLA will be forced into such a desperation move, if not now, then next year. Or maybe the league office will shuffle the cards in our favor now that they’re steering the ship.

    @165 #1 It’s insane to give $6 million of your cap space to Beno Udrih. We agree that TD is a rotation player, so we’re talking about upgrading the backup point play for 5 or 6 minutes a game. That deal is no bargain.

    @165 #2 Interesting – I guess it depends on how likely it is that Mozgov turns into an NBA player. I’d say 50-50. Swapping him out for Amundson has some risk but it would be a short-term upgrade and would expand the critical 2012 cap space by $3 million. I doubt it makes much difference on the court, since Amundson can’t shoot and D’Antoni would never play him.

    @166 I thought the comeback was derailed when D’Antoni left Turiaf/Williams/Chandler/Douglas/Felton on the court at the same time.

  75. danvt

    StevenU,
    I remember we beat Orlando with Isiah as coach (crap, I promised myself never to write that man’s name again) when he put Jerome James out there for a few minutes. I too am tired of the Knicks getting destroyed on the offensive glass.

    However, I think we’re good enough right now to beat the majority of teams in the league and that’s an amazing thing to think about after years of being the absolute worst franchise in the league. (Other teams had worse records in the 2000′s but we were in a weaker conference, lost to LAC with Harrington hanging on the rim, etc.)

    So, on some level I can’t really get too mad at MDA for going with the 8 players that are ready to compete, though I do completely see your point. We need some size, even for a few minutes, just to keep STAT on the court. It might be that Moz or Randolph wouldn’t have the desired effect, though and hurt us more than help.

    On trades: I think we’re finally seeing Walsh’s vision for the team in this, his third year. He’s created financial flexibility and a good young roster. I’m really excited to see what he comes up with next.

    I think the adjustments that need to be made have to do with getting Fields and Gallo more involved.

  76. Ben R

    Why is everyone freaking out? We lost to a good team on the road. Other than the loss to Cleveland the only games we’ve lost since we started playing well are Miami at home and away, Boston at home, Atlanta at home, and Orlando on the road. I think the loss to Atlanta and of course the loss to Cleveland are games the Knicks should have won but the rest are games we should lose.

    Let’s not react to a hard stretch in the schedule by throwing anyone under the bus; Felton, Gallo, D’Antoni they are all helping this team greatly.

    I know I’ve said this before but let’s please not trade any of our youth this year. Douglas, Mozgov and Randolph are all better than their playing right now. Let them develop. Mozgov will get back out there in time, Randolph will figure it out and Douglas will start hitting his shots again. Let’s give the team the benefit of the whole season together before we start tearing it apart.

    ess-dog – This year those trades probably help but Udrih and Head are huge downgrades defensively from Douglas and we need defense more than more offense plus Udrih is making over 7 million the next two years and that is alot of capspace for a need Douglas, a cheap free agent, or next years draft pick might be able to fill. As for Amundson players like him are a dime a dozen in free agency and I wouldn’t want to give up Mozgov’s upside for a player who is frankly worse than Turiaf and might not even play many minutes this year.

  77. JK47

    Meanwhile, Marcus Camby says he’d approve a trade to the Knicks.

    Now, Camby is 36 and he’s having a putrid season offensively. On the other hand, the guy’s rebounding has been nothing short of ferocious this season. He leads the NBA with a whopping 36.6 DRB% and also leads the league in TRB% with 22.2%.

    How high is that 36.6 DRB% number? Ludicrously high. He’s on pace to have the second highest defensive rebound percentage of all time, behind only Dennis Rodman’s 36.7 from the 1992-1993 season.

    The Blazers are about to shut Brandon Roy down for the season and I’m sure they wouldn’t mind picking up some assets. Camby is old but he is still bringing it… You have to figure he’ll be able to snag boards for at least one more season beyond this one. And his contract expires in time for the 2012 Chris Paul-a-Palooza.

    I say we trade for him.

  78. daJudge

    Good post Ben R. I like your measured response very much. Listening to DW on ESPN, he shares that approach. By maintaining flexibility there will be options that open. I think when the right player is available, it will be clear to most fans that it is the proper fit. It is however very tough watching the Knicks try to match up against bigs. At some points it looked like one of those crazy high school games where one team is playing out of conference. However, I also believe that if AR or Moz were net positives, they probably would be playing at this time. I don’t think they’re sitting because of the Coach’s personality flaws. I just can’t buy that. I can buy into the idea that they do not fit in right now and the Coach is not quick to make changes, either during the game or in his system generally. I hope they will develop and see playing time or get traded for useful players.

  79. BigBlueAL

    Interesting stuff from a Magic blog on the Knicks small lineup last night:

    Van Gundy said the Knicks became more difficult to defense when Amar’e Stoudemire, who scored 30 points last night, was on the bench. “They had Shawne Williams sitting in a corner and Dwight was either gonna have to guard Shawne Williams or Wilson Chandler,” Orlando’s coach said. “It’s a really difficult matchup. They made a couple of good runs at us with Stoudemire out of the game. That was actually their better lineup.”

    Overall, Orlando outscored the Knicks by 18 with Williams in the game, while New York outscored Orlando by 4 with Stoudemire on the game, which seems to contradict Van Gundy’s assessment. However, in a 3:40 stretch of the fourth quarter, the Knicks indeed deployed Williams at center, and he drained both his three-point tries as Howard sagged off him. In this specific run, New York gained three points on Orlando

  80. Brian Cronin

    Heck yes I would like the Knicks to trade for Marcus Camby. I’d give up AR for him, but I can see a reasonable argument to be made that that would be foolish.

    Still, if you told me I could trade David Lee and Eddy Curry for Marcus Camby, Ronny Turiaf and the corpse of Azubuike, I think I would do it, so I think this is a net plus.

    Plus it works for my plan of getting the Knicks over the cap for next season so that they can re-sign Chandler and use the MLE, then have Camby’s expiring contract plus whoever to make a deal for a 2012 free agent.

  81. StevenU

    I agree with Brian that adding Camby would be great-not good-great. But only at the right price and 21 year old AR is too high imo-only because Camby is 36.
    I can easily envision AR becoming a Camby type player-if anything his upside could be considerably better on the offensive end. Even with his awful J his ball handling and passing are already better than Camby. He is 15 years younger! His contract is cheap. And, most importantly, with or without any trades this team will not finish above 4th (which would be a reach even if we were fortunate enough to land Camby and a good back up PG). I think this is important to weigh when considering any trades. If we were on the brink of entering the elite-then trading young players, for that veteran that pushes the team over the top, makes perfect sense; given that we are not, I would take an extremely cautious approach before any moves that might mortgage the future for an only moderately better present.
    I think the most important factor for this teams success is the development of Gallinari, Chandler,AR, and possibly Fields. Giving up any of these guys right now would be premature unless it is to bring in a star player in his prime. Unfortunately this is just one more reason why I do not think Dantoni is the coach to bring this team to the next level.

  82. Brian Cronin

    The problem is that if they don’t trade AR, they can’t get Camby, right? I mean, who else do they have that could net Camby? Toney Douglas? No way. And that’s pretty much it for vaguely valuable players on the Knicks (that we would be willing to trade for Camby, that is).

  83. latke

    StevenU: Even with his awful J his ball handling and passing are already better than Camby. He is 15 years younger!

    He is a remarkably poor decision maker, and he is unlikely to realize any of his potential before his rookie contract expires, especially since it looks like he’s not going to get any burn this year. If you think he’s good, trade him now for a pick, then after he bombs on another team for another year, sign him then . He won’t cost any less than he would have if you’d kept him.

  84. StevenU

    You may be right but do you think Camby can elevate the Knicks to any higher than 4th? Or 5th? I think with him or without him they are the 6th best team in the east (this year) and if they are going to pass ATL and CHI it won’t be till next year anyway. For that reason (only) I’d pass on AR for Camby.
    I am not saying they can get anything of value for these guys but TD, Mason, Mosgov, and obviously Big Eddy Curry(‘s contract)-are all very expendable for a good C or a good back up PG.
    Maybe Mosgov and Curry for Camby and whoever Portland wants to throw in to balance $? At least this would make some sense for Portland side- if they think Mosgov has upside.
    I might be too high on AR, but I have seen him play well-just not for the Knicks…he is SO young…so athletic-I just cringe at the thought of him developing into a player on another team before having any legit opportunity to do so here. And, as much as I love Camby and always have-he is a spindly 36 year old with no scoring ability and I don’t think anyone would argue that he’d make us an instant contender.

  85. StevenU

    @latke-agreed (re ARs poor decision making ability). A lot of tall guys with a handle get confused about how to play.He desperately needs to be taught to rein himself in. I know I am repeating myself but he is 21! And currently he is Knick property. He does not need great bball IQ to develop just guidance and support. Its difficult or impossible to add things to a plkayers game but when you want to remove things from a players game it can be done. Like Josh Smith after several years deciding to play his position and getting all sorts of praise for doing less.
    Anyone younger than I won’t get this reference but trading AR for Camby right now would be akin to trading Mike Woodson for Mike Newlin.

  86. ess-dog

    Udrih is having a good year – look at the stats. And his contract ends in 2012. I would much rather have him as a backup than Duhon. And amundson had a great rebound rate last year. They would be good fits and at 24, I’d be willing to lose TD and Moz, but not 21 year old AR.

  87. daJudge

    I have to swim with Steven U on this. Love Camby, but I think he is too old to dump AR. In addition there is not enough data concerning AR’s playing to fairly evaluate him, since he get’s no burn. I am also not really concerned in the slightest that he lacks a 15 foot jump shot. Irrelevant. More of a concern is why he shoots it. I do think he can pass out of the post. Again, I don’t see AR in practice, so if he is not doing his job, then I would wait and package him with long term issues in mind. I do not think he is a young Camby, but I don’t think Marcus is the answer right now.

  88. david

    Given the current roster, I really quite like the Williams at Center as a backup plan. It’s not like Turiaf was going to stop Howard one-on-one in the post anyway, so why not concede you are going to double and make them have odd matchups on the defensive end.

    As for AR, I’m for trading him to a team that wants an asset. Most potential isn’t realized, and even if he gets good, it might not be for a few years, after his contract expires. I really like the idea of Randolph, but we are nurturing a lot of youth on this team and a few wiser heads at back up pg and center could be great. If we added Camby, I think we would be better than Atlanta and would match up fantastically with Chicago (we already match up fantastically with Chicago, and Camby would put us over the top in a seven game.) I think it’s worth it, particularly if we can get another asset (paddy mills looked good in one game I saw, although I haven’t checked out his numbers, and Rudy seems to be wearing out his welcome but could fit in with us) in return for salary relief. I also like the idea of using Camby’s 2012 expiring to bind us to the mast on waiting until then for free agents rather than snapping at whoever is available this offseason (assuming they play next season.)

  89. JK47

    I dunno, this is Randolph’s third season hanging around an NBA roster, and he still apparently still can’t grasp the concept of “play defense, grab rebounds and don’t shoot unless it’s a putback, layup or dunk.” It’s not like someone’s asking him to run a triangle offense or something complicated. I think the guy is just uniquely thick in the head.

    Meanwhile, we’re 25th in offensive rebounding, 25th in defensive rebounding and 24th in defensive rating. Our shooting guard is our second best rebounder and we’re starting last year’s shooting guard as our power forward. So it’s either make a move, hope and pray Randolph learns how to play basketball, or get eaten alive on the glass for the forseeable future.

  90. ess-dog

    @183
    I really think that’s how D’Antoni wants to play though. I actually think he was relatively happy with the performance last night and probably just felt like we needed to shoot better and get some better bench play.
    But I’m not sure I agree with him because playoff basketball is about heightened defense, low shooting percentages and ball control. That is why most teams employ a quality rebounder/paint defender.

  91. BigBlueAL

    Same to you Z-man and everybody else!!!! Great to be starting a new year with so much hope and excitement for the Knicks. When was the last time we entered a new year knowing the Knicks will be in the playoffs and possibly make a little noise in it. Looking forward to a great 2011!!!!

  92. Z-man

    Re: Gallo, Gian at P&T has a nice breakdown of Gallo going to the basket s. the Magic. He concludes that Gallo is making a concerted effort in this area, usually with good results, and that this will help round out his game. Is I said recently, you can see that Gallo is developing his approach to the game *during games* in an effort to become a better player. I really don’t want to bail on him, I am feeling more and more that he will evolve into a superb all-around player.

  93. NateRobinson

    I wish Mike’D would make a concerted effort to put more of an onus on Gallo to run the O with the second unit. TD cannot for his life give a blow to Felton and whenever our 2nd unit goes up against a tier 2 team it gives up points by the minute.

    Also, as for AR hes a hard worker and I hope he earns some minutes in the near future. We will not beat the big teams by going small and losing STAT to foul trouble. This is the best defense I’ve ever seen STAT play by far. Hes sacrificing himself for the sake of it.

  94. jon abbey

    arguably the biggest game of the season thus far tomorrow, against Indiana. NY needs to stay in 6th to avoid Miami/Boston in the first round and have any shot of advancing, and Indiana is the best bet to knock them lower as of now. go New York, go New York, go!

  95. Z-man

    Agree Jon, clearly we are not as good as Miami or Orlando, but if we are as improved as we say we are, we should beat this team. Looking for Fields, and less so Felton, to have bounce-back games.

    PS Hibbert is one of a few good young 7-footers that might revitalize the “traditional” C position in coming years.

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