Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Friday, April 18, 2014

2011 Game Thread: Knicks @ Celtics

For your game thoughts.

120 comments on “2011 Game Thread: Knicks @ Celtics

  1. BigBlueAL

    Amar’e to start and play some in the 1st and 3rd quarters. No Melo and Billups. Also D’Antoni announces Turiaf as the starting C for the playoffs.

  2. rohank

    I’d almost rather not watch than listen to this Celtic announcer DRIVEL.

    ARGH hate these guys. Can’t wait for playoffs on TV so I dont have to stream this…

  3. BigBlueAL

    Amar’e looking a bit rusty but does look healthy. Also showing no interest whatsoever on playing D tonight lol.

  4. marxster

    rohank:
    I’d almost rather not watch than listen to this Celtic announcer DRIVEL.

    ARGH hate these guys. Can’t wait for playoffs on TV so I dont have to stream this…

    I’m listening with the sound off! These guys are terrible.

  5. Tyler Murray

    Hey guys — I’m going to interview the Celtics Hub blog about the playoff matchup before Sunday’s opening game to post on here. Let me know if you have any questions you’d like to ask, and I’ll see if I can’t include them.

  6. Trenton Tuckah

    Turiaf postin’ & toastin’…@Tyler ax them if they feel Green is going to justify that trade w/ his play in the playoffs?

  7. SangaD

    ask if they ready for the painful rebuilding era or do they think this unit has a few more legitimate chip runs and do they stop the car or show respect and let the gas run out.

  8. tenebrous

    It would b great for this playoff run if our bench can beat their bench. That would make the starters work a little harder in the actual playoffs.

  9. tenebrous

    That was such a cheapshot by Walker – hitting the Pov below the waist on a 3 attempt.

  10. Spree8nyk8

    Worst part of this game is that 5 weeks ago I made a bet with someone on this game and the loser has to use the picture of the winners choice as their facebook profile pic until the playoffs are over, now it’s a friggin JV game and I have the Knicks +3. :( fml PLEASE GO JV TEAM!!!

  11. KnickInSeattle

    I love Walker hitting that asshole.
    Hate to see Shelden limping, but Brown has got some serious energy.
    I assume he won’t see any time in the playoffs though, right?

  12. BigBlueAL

    KnickInSeattle:
    Landry can’t suck this hard if we’re going to win more than 1 game.

    Yeah, only thing I take from this game is how horrible he has been trying to defend Pavlovic chasing him off of screens. Ray Allen must be licking his chops. Have a feeling Fields minutes in the playoffs might be seriously diminished.

  13. KnickInSeattle

    Fields looks exhausted.
    And though the boxscore says he’s made some shots, I can’t remember one.

  14. tenebrous

    KnickInSeattle:
    Fields looks exhausted.
    And though the boxscore says he’s made some shots, I can’t remember one.

    No one is asking u to remember anything. Remember that.

  15. CRJoe

    No idea why Fields played a single minute tonight… He’s been awful lately and he obviously needs a rest… I wouldn’t mind seeing Toney getting all of his minutes at SG in playoffs, he’s a better defender and against Allen the height difference isn’t that much, also Allen doesn’t tend to post smaller players so that issue is almost irrelevant… And it would also mean a few more minutes for Anthony Carter at the point… Cahtah is awful at every single aspect of the game but starting the offense and providing some on ball defense, against boston likely backup pg (West), I’ll take those skills…

  16. Doug

    tenebrous: No one is asking u to remember anything. Remember that.

    You are truly inscrutable. What a precociously tenebrous mind you have… you’re like a miniature oracle, covered in hair.

  17. Spree8nyk8

    KnickInSeattle:
    Landry can’t suck this hard if we’re going to win more than 1 game.

    The Celtics are garbage right now, if you are just hoping for them to win “1 game” then i just don’t know why you bother wasting time on being a fan. And this isn’t to say if they only won a game I’d stop being a fan (last ten years validates that), but have some faith man. We can BEAT this team, not just get some moral victory. I don’t mean to be harsh man but statements like this really bring me down because after ten years the best knicks fan hope for is to just not get embarrassed.

  18. CRJoe

    Knicks at their best aren’t as good as this Celtics team, their role players are far superior than ours, and even considering the fact that star players are the ones carrying almost all of the burden in the playoffs their Big 4 just has more experience, chemistry and complimentary skills that our big 3… And then you gotta factor in that this is their 3rd playoff run and our guys haven’t had a run of games were all of the 3 have played at full strength at the same time… Winning the series is completely out of question…

  19. Spree8nyk8

    We are going to win this series, shun the non believer. Be ashamed of yourself when it happens.

    Scrub list: (this will be updated)
    CRJoe

  20. Robert Silverman

    Oh great. Spree’s turning Nixon on us and cobbling together an “Enemies list”

    (Just a friendly ribbing, Spree. We Jews don’t like ending up on lists in general)

  21. SangaD

    look im a loyal knick fan and im gonna say it if Turiaf start ahead of shelden we need a new coach. this team has fulfilled all the season requirements now im looking at who’s outta here and im sorry but ssol no defense and turiaf ahead of shelden is not a winning formula

  22. elikint

    Put me on the list too, Spree — hope I’m wrong, but my heroes lack the muscle, teamwork and defense to prevail. C’s in 5 :/

  23. tenebrous

    Doug: You are truly inscrutable. What a precociously tenebrous mind you have… you’re like a miniature oracle, covered in hair.

    I guess I should say thank you. Thank you – fellow Knick bearer.

  24. tenebrous

    CRJoe:
    Knicks at their best aren’t as good as this Celtics team, their role players are far superior than ours, and even considering the fact that star players are the ones carrying almost all of the burden in the playoffs their Big 4 just has more experience, chemistry and complimentary skills that our big 3… And then you gotta factor in that this is their 3rd playoff run and our guys haven’t had a run of games were all of the 3 have played at full strength at the same time… Winning the series is completely out of question…

    U forget Billups is on the team.

  25. SangaD

    seriously jefferies isnt better than D brown and brown is finito. im still laughing at the fact that i made these cuts 3 hrs ago.

  26. Spree8nyk8

    CRJoe: Hahaha… Love the optimism though, it picked me up after a rough day…

    You have to man, I mean what is the point about being right about having your team lose? I’d rather have faith and be wrong than not have faith and be wrong. Believe in them man, it will make being right feel so much better.

  27. Spree8nyk8

    Robert Silverman:
    Oh great. Spree’s turning Nixon on us and cobbling together an “Enemies list”

    (Just a friendly ribbing, Spree. We Jews don’t like ending up on lists in general)

    ur on the list robert!

  28. Spree8nyk8

    elikint:
    Put me on the list too, Spree — hope I’m wrong, but my heroes lack the muscle, teamwork and defense to prevail. C’s in 5 :/

    Noted!

  29. KnickInSeattle

    Spree,

    I have at least as much faith as you do in our team.
    I was bummed at Landry’s decline, and hoping it ends in the playoffs.
    Go Knicks!
    (also add tenebrous to the list)

  30. SangaD

    spree that pacer game reminded u of ur colors but hey we made the trade got in the playoffs we sold some shirts and we made the town believe again but its time to put the drinks down and focus on a 60 win season. getting caught up in this series will make us do things like talk ish about a rookie going through his first 82 game season.

  31. CRJoe

    Spree8nyk8: You have to man, I mean what is the point about being right about having your team lose?I’d rather have faith and be wrong than not have faith and be wrong.Believe in them man, it will make being right feel so much better.

    I really do understand you man, and even if I often rant about our lack of possibilities in the future I do hope that ‘Melo and Stat become the new Clyde & Walt… But in this series, man is though to believe… Even so I’m gonna take a note from you and start to think more positive… What’s the worst that could happen???

    tenebrous: U forget Billups is on the team.

    Who do you think I meant by Big 3??? Melo, Stat & Renaldo???

  32. daJudge

    Oh well. I lost my bet for the 7th straight year.

    It’s funny with the playoffs this year. There is no team that you could comfortably take against the field. Of course there are favorites, but I think some teams, like the Knicks, have a puncher’s chance to advance. Certainly they have a good shot to win a couple/few games in the first round and could take out the Celtics. Upset, but not a crazy upset. The ‘could’ part is what excites me the most. Problem is that I’m the guy who lost a bet, 7 year’s running, thinking the Knicks would win more games then they did. Any update on Sheldon Williams?

  33. Spree8nyk8

    jon abbey:
    my list of posters I hope will not be back next season:

    Spree8nyk8

    My list of posters who will not get laid before next season:
    Jon Abbey

  34. Spree8nyk8

    daJudge:
    Oh well.I lost my bet for the 7th straight year.

    It’s funny with the playoffs this year.There is no team that you could comfortably take against the field.Of course there are favorites, but I think some teams, like the Knicks, have a puncher’s chance to advance.Certainly they have a good shot to win a couple/few games in the first round and could take out the Celtics. Upset, but not a crazy upset. The ‘could’ part is what excites me the most.Problem is that I’m the guy who lost a bet, 7 year’s running, thinking the Knicks would win more games then they did.Any update on Sheldon Williams?

    You should have just bet the over under on bodog, it was only 35 coulda made some decent money on that.

  35. Jafa

    Tyler Murray: Hey guys — I’m going to interview the Celtics Hub blog about the playoff matchup before Sunday’s opening game to post on here. Let me know if you have any questions you’d like to ask, and I’ll see if I can’t include them.

    Here are some questions:

    - Of the Big 4, who really needs to play well for them to win this series? Can they win with Rondo in a funk or Allen not making his jumpers?
    - Do they worry about KG getting into foul trouble trying to be the enforcer in the paint? Are they doomed for relying on a player named O’Neal to help them in this playoff run?
    - How much pressure is on the Celtics to not only win this series, but win convincingly?
    - Has Lawrence Frank done a good enough job to inherit the head coaching job when Doc leaves?
    - When does he think the rebuilding will begin, and will it be conditional on if they win it all this year?

  36. Jafa

    SangaD:
    look im a loyal knick fan and im gonna say it if Turiaf start ahead of shelden we need a new coach. this team has fulfilled all the season requirements now im looking at who’s outta here and im sorry but ssol no defense and turiaf ahead of shelden is not a winning formula

    SangaD,

    I don’t understand why we need a new coach is Turiaf starts ahead of Shelden. Like it or not, this coach values offense more, and Turiaf helps more with that. Quick glance at Turiaf vs. Shelden:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=turiaro01&y1=2011&p2=willish02&y2=2011

    TS% – .571 vs. .524
    eFG% – .528 vs. .460
    AST% – 12.2 vs. 4.7

    I think both will play at center, but he may be putting Turiaf out there first to get the offense going early. Remember, that’s our strong suit. If we can’t score, which is what we do well, it does not bode well for us and gives the Celtics more confidence in their D, which is their strong suit.

    While Sheldon gives us better rebounding (16.7 vs. 11.9 TRB%), Turiaf also gives us better shot blocking (5.5 vs. 2.2 BLK%). So I don’t think this is a bad choice. Plus, I think our success in this series hinges more on guys like STAT, Melo, Billups and TD and less on who our center is.

  37. jon abbey

    Spree8nyk8: My list of posters who will not get laid before next season:
    Jon Abbey

    actually I’m happily married, but good guess. you, however, are still an idiot.

  38. jon abbey

    since you’re a betting man, Spree, here’s my proposed bet for you: Knicks win this series and I don’t post here again until the 2011-2012 season is over. Celtics win this series and you don’t post here again until the 2011-2012 season is over.

    so are you going to back up all of your ignorant empty words or not? either way I win.

  39. Jafa

    Easy there jon abbey, don’t let one poster drive you away. What makes this blog fun, other than the statistical analysis, is the opposing viewpoints, both yours and Spree’s.

    Here’s hoping we all make the list of ecstatic long suffering Knicks fans who get to be proud of our team no matter what happens. :)

  40. latke

    I don’t know why people think Shelden Williams is so great. He’s a good man defender and a good rebounder, and generally speaking he’s probably better than Jared Jeffries, but Turiaf is a better help defender, passer and, sadly, scorer. IMO help defense is key for a team that has so many defensive holes.

  41. Frank O.

    Hee hee.
    The blog makes me smile.
    I’m probably optimistic about a Knicks win, but I think they take the Celts. I made the case in an earlier string.
    But our chances worsen with Shelden Williams out.
    Still, I think Carmelo and Stat will be men possessed, and Billups will hold his own against Rondo.
    I think dissension among the Celts runs deep, and it may be their undoing.

  42. Frank

    Spree8nyk8: You have to man, I mean what is the point about being right about having your team lose?I’d rather have faith and be wrong than not have faith and be wrong.Believe in them man, it will make being right feel so much better.

    Not sure why thinking your team will probably lose to a superior team is such a bad thing.

    The question to ask yourself is: would you put $1000 down on the Knicks in this series if it were even money? I also think they have a reasonable chance (30-40%) of winning this series, but I think the vast majority of even the most ardent Knick fans would pass on this bet. If you wouldn’t, then it means you’re not as sure of yourself as you think you are. It doesn’t make you a hater — it just makes you a fan who WANTS his team to win, but doesn’t know if they can. Like the rest of us.

    I highly doubt that any sane Knick fan would make that bet.

    Re: Shelden Williams – our biggest weaknesses are our interior defense and our defensive rebounding. Turiaf may have better block numbers but he just isn’t as good a post defender as Shelden, and he is a worse rebounder at the 5 position than Landry Fields is. Shelden is an above average rebounder and at least an average-to-above average post defender. Also- he can shoot a 15 foot jumper with some accuracy.

    That being said, I agree with the 3-headed monster approach. When Shaq or JO are in there, then Shelden and Turiaf should share the minutes. When Krstic is in there I’d rather go with JJ to cover Garnett and Amare or Shawne on Krstic.

    Last thing – does anyone think that Bill Walker might just be a better player than Landry is at this point of the season?

  43. Frank

    There are some on this board, though, (who shall remain nameless but have 4 words in their handle which rhymes with duh jonorable rock howls) who I truly believe would have secret joy if the Knicks got knocked out in the first round, DeJuan Blair posted 20/20s every night, and Ty Lawson led Denver to the championship. Then this nameless poster could say “I told you so” for the next 5 years which would be more satisfying to this person than watching the Knicks win.

  44. gabriel

    Frank O i second that re: “this blog makes me smile”

    The knicks have a legit shot to win. However, guarding mr. shuttesworth is gonna be extremely difficult as i stated yesterday afternoon and became abundantly clear during the game. They have to make sure there defensive rotations are super clear, because when they run that zone defense there will be holes in the zone and communication is key(this where chemistry and gelling comes in) Also fields has to be able to stay with ray allen. I wish he had a post up game so we can make mr. shuttlesworth work hard on the other end.

  45. gabriel

    FRANK AMEN. You are spot on about cock jowles. Notice the heavy activity of these haters has declined since melo(two time player of the week) and the knicks has been winning. But when the knicks are losing these guys are having a party about how gallinari is the best thing since sliced bread. Oh by the way Frank u forgot one of cock jowles compatriots….. hoolahoop. Hopefully they are spreading their love on the denver nuggets blog site. Go Knicks.

  46. villainx

    “Last thing – does anyone think that Bill Walker might just be a better player than Landry is at this point of the season?”

    Landry fallen that much, or Bill Walker ascending?

    Haven’t follow the team that much aside from info available online, so can’t say. Landry while not exactly having trouble fitting in post-trade, seem more to have trouble excelling. Walker asked/expected to do less, can do more in a limited role?

  47. latke

    Frank: There are some on this board, though, (who shall remain nameless but have 4 words in their handle which rhymes with duh jonorable rock howls) who I truly believe would have secret joy if the Knicks got knocked out in the first round, DeJuan Blair posted 20/20s every night, and Ty Lawson led Denver to the championship.

    Who doesn’t want to be right? Let’s say the Knicks traded Carmelo Anthony this summer for DeJuan Blair and Ty Lawson and the Knicks plodded their way to 40 wins, while ‘Melo’s new team won 60, with ‘Melo putting up career #s. People right now who defended acquiring Melo would be howling about how stupid the Knicks were to trade him away and definitely would take a (perhaps secret) pleasure in their valuation being apparently correct.

    Frank: Re: Shelden Williams – our biggest weaknesses are our interior defense and our defensive rebounding. Turiaf may have better block numbers but he just isn’t as good a post defender as Shelden, and he is a worse rebounder at the 5 position than Landry Fields is.

    Yeah except look here. Our defense is markedly worse with Shelden on the floor. I’m telling you, he’s a solid rebounder and man defender, and a good player at power forward, but you need a guy who can cover up people’s mistakes, and Shelden’s boxy body just isn’t built for mobility or protecting the basket.

    With Turiaf, the defense is markedly better (though the offense is much worse). But that’s because Turiaf throughout the season has largely been Amare’s backup. She-Will’s 2 main backups are Turiaf and Jeffries…

    Our best lineup throughout the season has been with Amare at the center, and IMO that’s where Amare will be whenever Shaq is not in the lineup.

  48. iserp

    You guys, were better people before this season.

    I am starting to sour on the Knicks and on this blog. I came here about 2 years and a half ago, and the board was full of optimism about the future; everyone gave their opinion, and i liked the fact that everyone was reasonable, tried to use both statistics and observation to back up his claims, and it was enjoyable to read. I became a fan of the knicks, and although i write seldomly here, i use to read the blog everyday.

    Last summer, predicting the future of the Knicks ended; Walsh made a move for Stoudemire, and then a trade for Melo, and we are about to start our first playoffs in a decade. However, people are more concerned about watching their predictions go right or wrong than to enjoy the Knicks. And when i say “enjoy the Knicks”, i mean like i enjoyed the Knicks last year, even if we were a losing team. Of course i want the Knicks to win; but a prediction going right or wrong won’t stop me from cheering my team. I am a huge football (soccer) fan; i am fan of barcelona, and i’ve been sad about predictions i made right (i though Ibrahimovic wasn’t going to work well), and i’ve been happy about predictions i made wrong (i thought Villa wasn’t good), but neither prediction stopped me from cheering for them to win.

    Somehow this blog has become a war ground. Some posters look like religious fundamentalists, meanwhile others look like mindless fanatics. And one of the first casualties has been the respect for other people; suddenly the blog is filled with sarcasm, jokes directed at people, and spiteful answers.

    I am not that much of a fan, since i only catch the NBA 2 years ago, but i am a bit sad about this… well, i guess i can always follow Gasol and the rest of spanish players around; but this team and this blog was somehow special, not sure if anymore.

  49. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Oh, I’m still hatin’. I’m not impressed by a win streak. Carmelo’s still not worth max money. Never was, probably never will be. Risk. Risk. Risk. Risk. Risk. That’s all I say when people claim the trade is now vindicated by a late-season win streak. No, it’s not. It’s still risk. It’s still 60% of the cap devoted to two third-tier players. It’s still having few-if-any decent draft picks until spree4nykluvr graduates middle school. It’s still banking on the hope that we might be able to swing a third max player (who, for once, is actually worth the money) so that we can lose to the Heat in the 2nd round every year.

    14-13, right? or is it all the way up to 15-13 now? That’s worth blowing the team up long-term, giving up rookie contracts and young, productive players?

    The best part is that I don’t have to hope that the team won’t make it past the first round. They have no chance regardless. The numbers tell me so.

  50. Jafa

    “Somehow this blog has become a war ground. Some posters look like religious fundamentalists, meanwhile others look like mindless fanatics. And one of the first casualties has been the respect for other people; suddenly the blog is filled with sarcasm, jokes directed at people, and spiteful answers.”

    Very accurately put Iserp. The problem may be that some on this blog are really fans of advance stats and not necessarily fans of the Knicks. While coming here has really educated me on advanced basketball metrics and how they can really help in evaluating players, I’ve also realized that some of our posters are so hard headed that when they are clearly wrong, they are not willing to admit it. Others cannot stomach somebody having an opposing view point that they will go as far as making personal attacks on other bloggers.

    There are certain bloggers who consistently offer insightful analysis, and I pause to read what they have to say. There are other bloggers who consistently attack others personally. I skip over their posts. Remember, you cant throw out the baby with the bath water.

  51. gabriel

    WOW…..COCK JOWLES….FIRST TIME IN 7YRS WE ARE IN THE PLAYOFFS AND YOU STILL ARE HATING. KINDA LIKE A JILTED EX-GIRLFRIEND WHO CANT GET OVER THE PAST..AND ANYTIME YOU SEE THEM THEY ARE STILL HATING ..CAN WE PLEASE GET SOME ANALYSIS OF KNICKS VS CELTICS FROM YOU COCK OR MAYBE YOUR NOT A BIG ENOUGH TO DO OTHER WISE:)

  52. Shad0wF0x

    @68 +1 to you sir.

    Depending on how Shawne shoots will determine who plays at the 5 the most. If Shawne hits his shots, Shaq will have to guard him which will open up the middle somewhat or take the chance that Williams might hit the 3. If he can’t make the shots then Turiaf and Sheldon have to be there most of the time.

  53. Z

    I understand what iserp and Jafa are reacting too; however, I think it should be pointed out that the contributing writers of this blog have held consistent voices over the years. It is the “commenting community” that has changed (which was to be expected, once the team reached respectability again and the cheerleaders awoke from their slumber).

    Mike has always been willing to concede errors in judgement (Isiah as the best drafter ever; Balkman future DPOY; “free Mike Sweetney”)– and the fact that I can only name three instances of miscalculated opinion over the past 4 years tells me he’s been spot on a whole lot more than he’s been off (and I don’t care whether he’s using advanced stats or a Ouija board to gain his insights).

    In the end, diversity of opinion makes a forum work, and this site is benefitted hugely by the commenters that drop by and post their highly informed opinions and positions. However, It is not benefitted by the belligerent visitors who are few, but for some reason, very vocal.

    C’est la vie.

  54. Doug

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Oh, I’m still hatin’. I’m not impressed by a win streak. Carmelo’s still not worth max money. Never was, probably never will be. Risk. Risk. Risk. Risk. Risk. That’s all I say when people claim the trade is now vindicated by a late-season win streak. No, it’s not. It’s still risk. It’s still 60% of the cap devoted to two third-tier players. It’s still having few-if-any decent draft picks until spree4nykluvr graduates middle school. It’s still banking on the hope that we might be able to swing a third max player (who, for once, is actually worth the money) so that we can lose to the Heat in the 2nd round every year.

    14-13, right? or is it all the way up to 15-13 now? That’s worth blowing the team up long-term, giving up rookie contracts and young, productive players?

    The best part is that I don’t have to hope that the team won’t make it past the first round. They have no chance regardless. The numbers tell me so.

    I always thought of Cock as one of the stronger voices in this commentariat the past few years, but now it doesn’t sound like he takes any joy seeing our first trip to the playoffs in SEVEN YEARS.

    I mean come on!

    Why does he call himself a Knicks fan when he doesn’t enjoy it when they win? It’s like the bedrock principle of what a fan is.

    Brian Cashman’s explanation of process vs result applies here. The process of acquiring Melo was not ideal. The result, h

  55. iserp

    Z: I understand what iserp and Jafa are reacting too; however, I think it should be pointed out that the contributing writers of this blog have held consistent voices over the years. It is the “commenting community” that has changed (which was to be expected, once the team reached respectability again and the cheerleaders awoke from their slumber).

    It is true that most people commenting here are being as respectful as ever, even if sometimes they have heated arguments; but lately there is a weird atmosphere in the blog, and if some poster attacks some other, it seems to drag the thread around them, which is not good.

  56. Doug

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Oh, I’m still hatin’. I’m not impressed by a win streak. Carmelo’s still not worth max money. Never was, probably never will be. Risk. Risk. Risk. Risk. Risk. That’s all I say when people claim the trade is now vindicated by a late-season win streak. No, it’s not. It’s still risk. It’s still 60% of the cap devoted to two third-tier players. It’s still having few-if-any decent draft picks until spree4nykluvr graduates middle school. It’s still banking on the hope that we might be able to swing a third max player (who, for once, is actually worth the money) so that we can lose to the Heat in the 2nd round every year.

    14-13, right? or is it all the way up to 15-13 now? That’s worth blowing the team up long-term, giving up rookie contracts and young, productive players?

    The best part is that I don’t have to hope that the team won’t make it past the first round. They have no chance regardless. The numbers tell me so.

    I always thought of Cock as one of the stronger voices in this commentariat the past few years, but now it doesn’t sound like he takes any joy seeing our first trip to the playoffs in SEVEN YEARS.

    I mean come on!

    Why does he call himself a Knicks fan when he doesn’t enjoy it when they win? It’s like the bedrock principle of what a fan is.

    Brian Cashman’s explanation of process vs result applies here. Bad process, good result = lucky. Good process, bad result = nothing to criticize.

    The process of acquiring Melo was not ideal. The result, however, was good. As fans, even so called intelligent fans, we should still be able to enjoy the positive result of a bad process. We will know we got lucky but like iserp said above about Barca’s Ibrahimovic deal we will be happy we were wrong. Continuing to shit on the Melo deal on a purely abstract process level and acting like the result is…

  57. JK47

    Since the trade:

    WS/48
    Carmelo Anthony .157
    Chauncey Billups .155
    Anthony Carter .045
    Shelden Williams .188

    Danilo Gallinari .133
    Ray Felton .097
    Wilson Chandler .037

    For the season, the Knicks’ leaders in WS/48 were:
    Shelden Williams .188
    Carmelo Anthony .157
    Chauncey Billups .155
    Danilo Gallinari .140
    Amar’e Stoudemire .134

    The only qualm I have about the Melo trade is the salary cap space that Melo and Stat will eat up. In terms of the assets surrendered, Wilson Chandler and Ray Felton are mediocre players, Danilo Gallinari is a good player but not at Melo’s level and Mozgov is intriguing but he’s a project. Anthony Randolph has shown signs in Minny but he’s an RFA pretty soon and is not going to be a great value for much longer.

  58. Doug

    …the result is meaningless is head scratching madness. If you don’t like watching the Knicks win, perhaps you are looking for something else.

    Free Darko recently closed its doors. It might be appropriate in light of that to pursue liberated fandom. Get NBA league pass and follow Gallo and Chandler wherever they go. No one will judge and no one will criticize. We will understand.

    It may be more postmodern to only support a team if you agree with their management decisions. Conditional liberated fandom. I kind of have to root for the laundry though.

  59. Frank

    The Honorable Cock JowlesCarmelo’s still not worth max money. Never was, probably never will be. Risk. Risk. Risk. Risk. Risk. That’s all I say when people claim the trade is now vindicated by a late-season win streak. No, it’s not. It’s still risk. It’s still 60% of the cap devoted to two third-tier players. It’s still having few-if-any decent draft picks until spree4nykluvr graduates middle school.

    Couple questions — if Amare and Melo are 3rd tier players, how many tiers are there? 50?

    Second – you do realize that in order to get decent draft picks you have to stink right?

    You definitely have your opinion and you are entitled to it. But I asked you this before and you never answered–

    If I remember correctly the reason you hate Melo is because the advanced stats (or at least the ones you have access to) say that he’s not as good as the media makes him out to be.

    But what do you think about the fact that Daryl Morey, signer of Kevin Martin, Kyle Lowry, Shane Battier, Luis Scola, patron saint of statheads everywhere, really tried hard to get Melo?

    http://houston.sbnation.com/houston-rockets/2011/1/20/1946550/morey-rockets-back-in-the-game-a-little-bit-for-carmelo-anthony

    This is what I really think about the readily available “Advanced stats”. They are useful, especially to casual–>fanatic NBA fans to give us something to talk about. But REAL advanced stats are what are found using PAY services like Synergy sports and STATS.com’s Sportvu. I kinda don’t think Dean Oliver (when he was with DEN), Morey, etc. are using Basketball Reference or WoW to make decisions. They’re using numbers far more nuanced and accurate than the blunt instruments available to us.

    Morey wanted Melo based on his statistical analysis. Is yours better than his? This is a serious question.

  60. BigBlueAL

    JK47:
    Since the trade:

    WS/48
    Carmelo Anthony .157
    Chauncey Billups .155
    Anthony Carter .045
    Shelden Williams .188

    Danilo Gallinari .133
    Ray Felton .097
    Wilson Chandler .037

    For the season, the Knicks’ leaders in WS/48 were:
    Shelden Williams .188
    Carmelo Anthony .157
    Chauncey Billups .155
    Danilo Gallinari .140
    Amar’e Stoudemire .134

    The only qualm I have about the Melo trade is the salary cap space that Melo and Stat will eat up.In terms of the assets surrendered, Wilson Chandler and Ray Felton are mediocre players, Danilo Gallinari is a good player but not at Melo’s level and Mozgov is intriguing but he’s a project.Anthony Randolph has shown signs in Minny but he’s an RFA pretty soon and is not going to be a great value for much longer.

    This must be a misprint. The guys traded to Denver are amazing and are the sole reason for the Nuggets great play since the trade. These numbers do not compute.

  61. Brian Cronin

    I don’t think we’ll know if it was a good trade until we see where Paul/D-Will end up.

    Because otherwise, I don’t see how you can look at the trade as of right now, April 14, 2011 and say that it had a good result. The Knicks are in the same spot they were before the trade (#6 seed with an outside chance at a first round upset), just with a ton less flexibility (by the by, the Knicks could have easily gotten Dalembert before the trade deadline without giving up Gallo, WC, Felton or Mozgov had they not done the Melo deal, in which case they would actually be a better team than they are now). That’s not a “good” result, it is just not a “bad” result (which is how things looked for awhile there).

    For as good as Melo and Billups have played recently, their success has come at a direct cost of Amar’e and Fields’ success, so the end result is the team is playing basically the same as they were before the trade – slightly better on offense and slightly worse on defense, combining to basically come out even. That’s certainly not a bad result (and if Melo and Billups fully embrace SSOL, it might eventually be a very good result, as Amar’e will no longer be Sam Perkins lite on offense), but it is not yet a good one.

    Now if having Melo and Amar’e on the same team (and Melo winning Eastern Conference Player of the Week awards) gets Chris Paul on the team next year, then yeah, the whole thing worked out, and if you think the Knicks knew that going in (that getting Melo gave them a very good chance of getting Paul or D-Will), then sure, I’d definitely say that the process was not nearly as bad as it appeared.

  62. Spree8nyk8

    jon abbey:
    since you’re a betting man, Spree, here’s my proposed bet for you: Knicks win this series and I don’t post here again until the 2011-2012 season is over. Celtics win this series and you don’t post here again until the 2011-2012 season is over.

    so are you going to back up all of your ignorant empty words or not? either way I win.

    That bet just isn’t a fair one. The Celtics are favorites, they are supposed to win. So I’d have to get odds, and I really don’t care if you post here or not. And I don’t see you honoring the bet if you do lose. So I’ll pass. Now if you wanna give me 3-1 which is about where the money line is I’ll put my 100 up against your 300 as long as an intermediary holds the money.

  63. Spree8nyk8

    Frank: Not sure why thinking your team will probably lose to a superior team is such a bad thing.

    The question to ask yourself is:would you put $1000 down on the Knicks in this series if it were even money?I also think they have a reasonable chance (30-40%) of winning this series, but I think the vast majority of even the most ardent Knick fans would pass on this bet.If you wouldn’t, then it means you’re not as sure of yourself as you think you are.It doesn’t make you a hater — it just makes you a fan who WANTS his team to win, but doesn’t know if they can.Like the rest of us.

    I highly doubt that any sane Knick fan would make that bet.

    I wouldn’t make any bet where the money line or the spread dictated more of an advantage than I was getting. So it’s not saying that I would be afraid to bet the Knicks, I wouldn’t be, but I would be entitled to betting the odds that are given. I did bet the Giants straight up over the Patriots in the superbowl, but I had the money line which was 5:1. I felt like the Giants had a signifigant chance in winning that game, doesn’t mean I wasn’t entitled to proper odds. You can believe your team is going to win and still demand proper odds on a bet. And this is pointless anyway because I’m not trying to get anyone to put money on them. I’m just asking them to put some faith in them.

  64. Frank

    iserp:
    I am starting to sour on the Knicks and on this blog. I came here about 2 years and a half ago, and the board was full of optimism about the future; everyone gave their opinion, and i liked the fact that everyone was reasonable, tried to use both statistics and observation to back up his claims, and it was enjoyable to read. I became a fan of the knicks, and although i write seldomly here, i use to read the blog everyday.
    Last summer, predicting the future of the Knicks ended; Walsh made a move for Stoudemire, and then a trade for Melo, and we are about to start our first playoffs in a decade. However, people are more concerned about watching their predictions go right or wrong than to enjoy the Knicks. And when i say “enjoy the Knicks”, i mean like i enjoyed the Knicks last year, even if we were a losing team. Of course i want the Knicks to win; but a prediction going right or wrong won’t stop me from cheering my team.
    Somehow this blog has become a war ground. Some posters look like religious fundamentalists, meanwhile others look like mindless fanatics. And one of the first casualties has been the respect for other people; suddenly the blog is filled with sarcasm, jokes directed at people, and spiteful answers.

    I am starting to agree with you Iserp — and this is from someone who probably has been guilty of some sniping and sarcasm from time to time (I’ll try to do better). It certainly would be nice to have this place be a bit more civil again.

    The Knicks are like my family – I don’t agree with everything they do or the choices they make, but I love them nonetheless. So here’s to a long playoff run, and to the job (imperfect, maybe) that Donnie and co. have done in bringing us back to relevancy.

  65. BigBlueAL

    Im still curious to see how this current team with some minor cheap additions plus their 1st round pick could do next season. Obviously the real key is the 2012 off-season but for those who think this team is just a slight upgrade to the old team I think next season this current team with some better cheap additions and hopefully a solid 1st-round pick should be a 50 win team and be in a much better position to make some real noise in the playoffs.

    Unless of course they make a trade for their 3rd “star” by the trade deadline. But if not then definitely the real key is what happens in the 2012 off-season.

  66. jon abbey

    Spree8nyk8: That bet just isn’t a fair one.The Celtics are favorites, they are supposed to win.So I’d have to get odds, and I really don’t care if you post here or not.And I don’t see you honoring the bet if you do lose.So I’ll pass.Now if you wanna give me 3-1 which is about where the money line is I’ll put my 100 up against your 300 as long as an intermediary holds the money.

    I’m not betting money, but I’ll gladly put up three years of me not posting here against one year of you not doing so. even 2 months against 6 months would be a welcome respite from your addlebrained verbosity, either of those bets is OK with me.

  67. jon abbey

    BigBlueAL:
    Im still curious to see how this current team with some minor cheap additions plus their 1st round pick could do next season.Obviously the real key is the 2012 off-season but for those who think this team is just a slight upgrade to the old team I think next season this current team with some better cheap additions and hopefully a solid 1st-round pick should be a 50 win team and be in a much better position to make some real noise in the playoffs.

    Unless of course they make a trade for their 3rd “star” by the trade deadline.But if not then definitely the real key is what happens in the 2012 off-season.

    yeah, I mean, we’ve been playing with a gaping three-headed black hole at C, I can’t imagine it will be that hard to upgrade there somehow.

  68. BigBlueAL

    Interesting stats via tweets from John Schuhmann:

    “Best post-All-Star lineup (min. 75 min.)? Rondo/Ray/Pierce/KG/Davis: +21.8 pp100poss. Big drop-off when big 4 isn’t on floor.”

    “2nd best post-All-Star lineup? Douglas/Fields/Melo/Amar’e/Jeffries: +21.0 pp100poss. But played just 86 min. together. BOS lineup played 214 min.”

  69. Spree8nyk8

    jon abbey: I’m not betting money, but I’ll gladly put up three years of me not posting here against one year of you not doing so. even 2 months against 6 months would be a welcome respite from your addlebrained verbosity, either of those bets is OK with me.

    Well I’m not worried about you posting here but i’ll gladly put up my year of posting up against your 300. You posting doesn’t bother me. You can talk about your husband all day long for all I care. See I come here for the team. You just come here to start stuff all the time, the difference is I don’t care if you are a dbag, it’s your right. Enjoy.

  70. knickterp

    @81: “For as good as Melo and Billups have played recently, their success has come at a direct cost of Amar’e and Fields’ success, so the end result is the team is playing basically the same as they were before the trade”

    That’s a huge assumption to make, considering Amar’e's late-season swoon seems more related to fatigue/injury/pacing himself than the presence of Billups and Melo. In fact, if the trade had never been made, could 1st half Amar’e have continued his MVP-level of play to carry this team to the playoffs? Unlikely. As for Fields, I’m sure the trade reduced his comfort level, but he’s just missing open shots and not guarding real well right now.

  71. Brian Cronin

    That’s a huge assumption to make, considering Amar’e’s late-season swoon seems more related to fatigue/injury/pacing himself than the presence of Billups and Melo.

    Obviously, I disagree. Amar’e has become a jump shooter when Melo and Billups are on the floor (the “Sam Perkins lite” comment ), and while Amar’e certainly can hit jumpers, that is far from his most effective offensive skill, and it is little surprise that he’s dropped, what, a sizable .17 points of FG%?, since the trade. He’s a finisher and one of the best offensive players in the post there is in the league (there’s very, very few players in the NBA who can cover Ama’re in single coverage on a drive to the post – maybe Perkins, Noah and…that’s really about it), but in an isolation offense, that skill is not very helpful. To wit, Amar’e's biggest weakness as a post player is that you can’t run isolations for him, as he either forces the issue or gets stripped (as seen early in the season). So when the Knicks run isolations (particularly at the end of the game), there is really no reason to give it to Amar’e, since he can’t do anything with it (except take a jumper). This is why Melo and Billups end up with the ball at something like a 90% clip in the last six minutes of the game, since they are both very adept at running isolations, so they know how to get off shots in that offense. Melo, in particular, has not only continued his strong isolation play, but has done so while adding three pointers to his repertoire, which is awesome for him. It’s not good for Amar’e, though, and his drop in WS/48 has been notable.

    As for Fields, I certainly do agree that Fields has had issues outside of the offensive system (rookie wall or whatever), but I think the main issue for him is both the new system and the new personnel. Fields’ skills lend themselves to SSOL but they are near useless in an iso offense. And the personnel issue is, as we’ve all seen, due to his poor defense and Billups’ poor defense, the Knicks can’t really afford to play both at the same time for too long before Toney needs to come in. When Felton was around, Felton’s defense allowed the Knicks to “cover” Fields’ defense better.

  72. Brian Cronin

    Im still curious to see how this current team with some minor cheap additions plus their 1st round pick could do next season. Obviously the real key is the 2012 off-season but for those who think this team is just a slight upgrade to the old team I think next season this current team with some better cheap additions and hopefully a solid 1st-round pick should be a 50 win team and be in a much better position to make some real noise in the playoffs.

    Unless of course they make a trade for their 3rd “star” by the trade deadline. But if not then definitely the real key is what happens in the 2012 off-season.

    Well, obviously I agree on the 2012 thing. As for the rest, I really don’t know what is out there for what the Knicks will have to offer (which is one year contracts). Heck, the Knicks might not even be able to keep Extra E! That said, as I’ve been harping on repeatedly, Billups embracing SSOL over the offseason would certainly go a long ways to making the Knicks better next season, even with the personnel staying mostly the same.

  73. Brian Cronin

    Regarding the personal insults, really, do cut it out. I’ve already deleted a couple. It’s gotta stop. You can (and should) express distaste for each other without going to personal insults.

  74. Spree8nyk8

    ess-dog:
    Jeez just ban Spree and Cock Jowles already.They are the root of 92% poster discontent.

    See that is bullshit ess-dog, I didn’t even do anything this time. Jon Abbey went off on me, not the other way around. All I did was tried to rally support for the team saying believe. So get my name out of your mouth and pay attention. Maybe if people actually read what was being said you’d understand better what was going on. Because I didn’t do a damn thing.

  75. Spree8nyk8

    Brian Cronin:
    Regarding the personal insults, really, do cut it out. I’ve already deleted a couple. It’s gotta stop. You can (and should) express distaste for each other without going to personal insults.

    Why is it that when Jon Abbey attacks me for no reason that stays put, but when I retaliate, that gets deleted? If you are going to mod then mod it both ways.

  76. Frank

    Spree8nyk8: Well I’m not worried about you posting here but i’ll gladly put up my year of posting up against your 300.You posting doesn’t bother me.You can talk about your husband all day long for all I care. See I come here for the team.You just come here to start stuff all the time, the difference is I don’t care if you are a dbag, it’s your right.Enjoy.

    Um, I think maybe it’s because you say stuff like this. And because Jonabbey has been here for years while you came in with the bandwagon jumpers. Not saying you are a bandwagon jumper but just you are new here so people will tend to side with the guy not making homophobic comments and who has been a valued contributor here for more than 4 months.

  77. Brian Cronin

    I am telling Jon to cut it out. Jon’s comments, though, as Frank noted, have not been so out of line (particularly the homophobic stuff). But yes, Jon has to stop it, as well.

  78. jon abbey

    that’s fine, I think I’m done with this site as long as Spree is here anyway. he has singlehandedly made this site decidedly worse all season long, no idea why he hasn’t gotten the Italian Stallion treatment.

    anyway, go Knicks.

  79. kburt8

    I don’t post often, but this thread is definitely out of hand and, I think, is part of a growing trend. I think the problem is that people are taking it upon themselves to correct the actions of others, and are taking over threads in the process. This should be left to moderators and dealt with through deletion of posts, suspensions, etc. No one needs to call anyone else out for inappropriate posts because 1) it should be taken care of behind the scenes and 2) responding to these posts just elicits more of them. Perhaps a feature could be added to flag posts for review?

    In other news, my favorite player of all time, Arvydas Sabonis, is in the hall of fame and the Knicks are in the playoffs.

  80. d-mar

    I find it really sad that instead of talking about THE KNICKS ARE IN THE PLAYOFFS! this site has devolved into name calling and nastiness. One thing I’ve always appreciated about K-Blogger is the informed nature of the discussions – yes, it can get a little ugly, believe me, I used to get really tired of Ted Nelson’s multiple “??????” after one of his smug retorts, but it was never personal.

    This stuff just has to stop, let’s enjoy this moment and talk about basketball, not posters.

  81. villainx

    Honestly, I didn’t even notice the discord from the various posters here. I visit fairly often, but post irregularly. And … well, I don’t get worked up about things, cause things are the way things are for the team.

    I’d thought someone would have more to add about the Bill Walker > Landry Fields comment.

    Just excited about the Knicks and the playoffs.

  82. latke

    IMO just banish the personal stuff. It doesn’t have to be really bad. If you talk about someone else in a personal way, then your post should be deleted. There’s a difference between saying, “i am very pleased/unhappy with how the knicks are doing and where they are headed,” and saying, “If you don’t feel pleased/unhappy, then you’re not real fan, or I don’t like you, or you’re stupid/ignorant/crazy/slutty/ bird-brained, etc…” Don’t make it personal — accept that everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone has a different way of rooting, and you won’t find yourself getting worked up.

  83. Doug

    I started reading Knickerblogger a few weeks before the Knicks traded for Zach Randolph.

    I’ve never seen two guys act as immature as spree and abbey were today.

    Dumbest fucking thing I’ve ever had to read.

  84. outoftowner

    villainx:

    I’d thought someone would have more to add about the Bill Walker > Landry Fields comment.

    Bill Walker has quietly been an absolute stud in terms of +/-. basketballvalue.com has his adj. +/- for the season at +5.19, by far the best on the team. This is not an anomaly as last year he put up a +4.82. I’ve been kind of paying attention to this lately and he happens to be on the court every time the Knicks go on a run. I don’t think its a fluke, he’s a good 3pt. shooter and by the standards of our team a good defender and rebounder. Ever since the Miami game I’ve been real impressed by his effort.

    It shouldn’t be Bill Walker vs. Landry Fields though. Landry put up an adj. +/- of +4.29, second on the team. Really, they should both be getting minutes. I kind of dislike the Billups-Douglas or Carter-Douglas backcourts because it takes time away from these guys.

    Walker’s big problem is that he looks like he’s dogging it out there. Maybe he is. D’Antoni philosophy is not to reward players who don’t play hard. I’m still on the fence about whether I like that or not.

  85. latke

    Walker fits the system in that he is a good three point shooter and is comfortable shooting even in traffic. That’s why Bill manages to get up 7 threes per 36 minutes, while Landry only manages 3 threes/36 at almost exactly the same percentage. Walker is also a much stronger penetrator. He makes good use of his hang time to get off shots and is strong enough to often finish through contact. Like Fields, his not the fastest bloke on the block, but the beauty of SSOL is that it gets you the step. You just have to be able to finish. I don’t know how many times I see Fields catch the ball, throw a headfake, take a few dribbles towards the rim and then just give up on the play and pass it out. That doesn’t happen with Walker.

    On the defensive end, Walker has occasionally looked good but generally, especially earlier in the season, been very poor at staying in front of guys. On average, I’d say Fields is slightly better in this department. Walker’s also not the rebounder Fields is, though Fields’ rebounding has fallen off of late.

  86. Spree8nyk8

    Frank: Um, I think maybe it’s because you say stuff like this. And because Jonabbey has been here for years while you came in with the bandwagon jumpers. Not saying you are a bandwagon jumper but just you are new here so people will tend to side with the guy not making homophobic comments and who has been a valued contributor here for more than 4 months.

    i’ve been here 2 years.

  87. Spree8nyk8

    Look guys I am sorry about my role in this, but I only responded to being provoked. I did nothing to jon abbey. And my original post to CRjoe was recieved as it was intended which was to inspire him to have faith in the team. I don’t know why Jon Abbey or frank have had the problems that they have but i’m not gonna say nothing when they get abusive.

    Anyway to the rest of you I apologize. But I’m not leaving.

  88. Kikuchiyo

    It’s not just the tone, it’s the volume. If you’ve posted to a thread three, four, five times, maybe it’s time to step aside and let the damn thing breathe.

  89. villainx

    So the combo of Landry and Walker > Chandler, right? So the Knicks won the trade?

    Only half kidding. Just wondering what kind of asset Landry and Walker will turn out to be. I’m hoping the blossom with the Knicks, but since they weren’t desired pieces for THE trade, how much is the excitement for these two based on 1) limited court time and 2) our fan colored glasses.

  90. Brian Cronin

    I think Landry was a desired piece, vil, the Knicks just made it clear that it was not going to happen.

  91. bbbb00123

    Somewhat unrelated, i’m sorry.

    Theres no denying Blake Griffing is a totally nasty dunker, that much is clear. But i think the love for his slams is out of hand. There’s a poll on espn asking which of his dunks was the best, and really, none of them are truely amazing.
    1.spin move and dunk over gallinari
    -travel. No matter how sweet it was, its a travel.
    2.Dunk over Mozgove
    -amazing, i agree, but it wasn’t a dunk. He threw the ball through the hoop.
    3.Alley oop reverse against Golden State
    -quality dunk, but nothing too special.
    4.Over car in Dunk Contest
    -not even a game, let along not THAT amazing, and he didn’t even deserve to make the finals of the competition.
    5.Slam over Gortat
    -offensive foul, so it didn’t even count.

    None of the top 5 are truely THAT amazing. I think all the buzz is way outa hand. But whatever, he’s clearly a great player and all yaknow.

  92. Brian Cronin

    I think the key is less that his dunks are amazing and more the fact that he does a lot of great dunks. You know, any moment could be a great dunk. That sort of electrifying player is going to get a lot of hype.

  93. tenebrous

    Sobonis hmmmm??? Would he be good on the Knicks right now or what? His passes were a head of his time. Actually, they’re still are. What a fm player was he to watch.

    Bill Walker is a monster so is Shawnee but they’re immature and could be a detriment in the POffs. Can’t believe I’m saying Playoffs. Anyway lets just hope they can keep it relaxed and make some shots. I dislike watching any of the Knicks over react on the floor -’it just doesn’t help things. Stat – being my fav – still got way too many techs. He probably wouldnt have been so dead at the end here if he would have watched his techs. There is a civility that is beautiful when you know you have another game to play. Can you guys imagine Galo on this team???? Wow!!!!! Anyway so does the milk spill so let cheer for some made shots****

  94. Z

    jon abbey:
    that’s fine, I think I’m done with this site as long as Spree is here anyway. he has singlehandedly made this site decidedly worse all season long, no idea why he hasn’t gotten the Italian Stallion treatment.

    anyway, go Knicks.

    Italian Stallion was banned because he was making long time readers and contributors not want to visit this site anymore.

    Now we’ve lost another one.

    Hope you come back jon.

  95. Z-man

    Yeah, I also am disappointed when this site gets polluted by commentary that has no thought at all behind it. When it becomes a “tabloid” blog instead of a forum for informed discussion imbued with passion for the orange and blue. When the goal is to provoke emotion rather than thoughtfulness. There are plenty of blogs for immature, vapid drivel, alas, this one has been devolving in that direction of late.

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