Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Sunday, October 26, 2014

2011 Game Thread: Knicks @ Cavaliers

For your in-post game thoughts.

228 comments on “2011 Game Thread: Knicks @ Cavaliers

  1. jkhar

    Cant wait to see the Knicks back on the court again to take care of business. Go Knicks! and um…Firsties!!

  2. jkhar

    After being humbled last night, I see at least a lunch-pail type effort to secure the W…if not an angry group who wants to atone for that second half nightmare last night and bury this sorry Cleveland team.

  3. truelliot

    Amare no doubt is a prolific player, but he needs to set a balance in going to the club in wee hours of the day, this is a very long season, and there is no need for celebration yet. One of the reason for the knicks defeat yesterday, was stress related, when you have that, you start missing free throws, which would gradually snowball into killing the chemistry of the team.
    I think stoudemire should take the lead in displaying work hectics to is team mates, When the body does not get enough rest before playing an extended minute (45mins), it could turn out to be garbage production.
    Amare should please slow down on the clubbing or else he is going to have a long summer.
    Lets Keep on winning guys!!!!!!

  4. Frank O.

    Dear “king superfly baddass mofo:”
    You are a talented writer, and I greatly enjoy reading what you write, and your minute by minute MSG experience was captivating.
    I have been a journalist – graduated from Columbia – for 22 years. I spent today covering the Senate votes to repeal the “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” law, and I can tell you that you can cover these things and still recognize an historic moment.
    I made certain I was in the Senate press gallery when the votes were cast, knowing full well what the outcome would be, having interviewed all the swing votes prior to the actual vote.
    I am full of these Forrest Gump moments, but I’m happy to be a part in some small way.
    Conversely, I watched this week dozens of young college bound Latino kids, who when they were children were brought here illegally by their parents. They were approaching senators in the trains beneath the Capitol, in the dining halls, in the halls of the Senate asking them to support the DREAM Act, which would give these exemplary teens a path to citizenship. Today, I watched several of them break down in tears when they fell five votes short (five Democrats, mind you, voted against) and realized that their dreams of citizenship were dashed. However you feel about the immigration question (I’m certainly not an expert. My expertise is national security and foreign policy), it’s hard – even as a “detached” journalist – not to be affected by young kids motivated to achieve something you take for granted if you are born here. It was inspiring and sad and I was glad that was not my issue to cover today.

    This has nothing to do with basketball, so I’ll stop, but Robert’s comments about journalism in the previous blog post got me thinking about my day, so I figured I’d share.

    Now, Let’s kick some Cavalier butt!

  5. marxster

    There’s “Amare” in the air…he’s got a new girlfriend apparently…former Kanye West girlfriend Amber Rose. Quite the nice curves.

  6. Michael Cline

    You would think that with the addition of Arenas, the Magic would have even more incentive to move J-Will. He’s never going to get playing time.

    This probably also means that Orlando has figured out what we knew last year – that Duhon sucks.

  7. BigBlueAL

    Michael Cline: You would think that with the addition of Arenas, the Magic would have even more incentive to move J-Will. He’s never going to get playing time.
    This probably also means that Orlando has figured out what we knew last year – that Duhon sucks.  

    Apparently J-Will has taken over the backup PG minutes from Duhon. Considering J-Wil is on a 1 year contract and Duhon is on a new 3 year deal yeah not good for our boy Duhon. lol

  8. Bruno Almeida

    @8

    yeah man, I’m also a journalist and even though my career is still very young, it’s impossible not to be affected by some things you see.

    I used to work in the metro part of a pretty big regional newspaper in my city, and I was assigned to do a special report on homeless kids that were sent to state institutions because of parent abuse… I can honestly say that I saw stuff I never thought I would, and the whole experience has completely changed the way I see things.

  9. Bruno Almeida

    Felton looks pissed because he had a bad game against the Heat, he looks like he’s fired up.

    Varejao is very good.

  10. BigBlueAL

    There is only one thing this Cavs team can do on offense (and they dont even do it that good) and that is shoot 3’s. So naturally the Knicks are constantly allowing wide open looks at 3’s.

  11. Frank O.

    Felton seems out of sync.
    So far, they look off again.
    Too many missed wide open looks.

    Love the hampster rappers!!!

  12. JK47

    Duhon has been even worse than usual this season. He’s got to be the worst player in the NBA who has logged 400 minutes or more.

    Bassy Telfair is practically John Stockton compared to Duhon. It’s hard to believe the Magic were giving him 20 minutes per game.

  13. Droidz1979

    marxster: Funny how the Cavs announcer said there’s a good energy in the crowd, yet they seem comatozed.  (Quote)

    comatose would be an understatement lol Love Fields game so far and the fact that Turiaf and the rest of the bench could give some burn but i would love to blow away this Cavs team early and let the bench play extented minutes later instead of the other way around. Would really suck if we lose this game

  14. Droidz1979

    We really need a back-up PG, our offense looks terrible and in complete disarray without Felton on the floor

  15. latke

    felton and stoudemire just seem to have lost the glow they had during the win streak. This is a team that the knicks would have beaten during the 3-8 streak. We should blow them out now.

  16. Droidz1979

    I love my Knicks but the announcers are killing me.. even the Bulls-Clippers game seems to have more semblance of life than this

  17. BigBlueAL

    Cavs shot less than 40% in 1st half but took 5 more ft’s than the Knicks and got 8 offensive rbs to 1 for the Knicks. I would expect/hope for the Knicks to play with enough energy for a 5 minute stretch or so in the 3rd quarter to open up a double digit lead and hold on rest of the game for the win.

  18. d-mar

    There is absolutely no excuse for not winning this game. The Cavs are truly awful, and have not a single player to go to inside. Even if this was the fourth night of a back-to-back-to-back-to-back, we should still win this game easily.

  19. BigBlueAL

    With Fresno St getting whooped by Northern Illinois there goes my shot at going perfect in College Bowl Pick’em. lol

  20. Nick C.

    BigBlueAL: Cavs shot less than 40% in 1st half but took 5 more ft’s than the Knicks and got 8 offensive rbs to 1 for the Knicks.I would expect/hope for the Knicks to play with enough energy for a 5 minute stretch or so in the 3rd quarter to open up a double digit lead and hold on rest of the game for the win.  

    I’d sign on for that.

  21. BigBlueAL

    Frank O.: Knicks perimeter shooting has been so off.  

    I felt the same way but they went 7 for 16 from 3pt range, their problem is no FT attempts or points in the paint.

  22. Spree8nyk8

    That game yesterday my have been very mentally damaging. I really hope they find a rhythm again because they have tough games ahead, can’t be letting a game that you can’t undo keep hurting you. Just to me seems like that game took a ton of wind out of the sails.

  23. Frank O.

    BigBlueAL:
    I felt the same way but they went 7 for 16 from 3pt range, their problem is no FT attempts or points in the paint.  

    I suspect I feel this way because several of the misses were pretty horrible. And a couple baskets were luck

  24. totti

    Do you remember last year cavs bully attitude?
    This year they are seven little dwarfs without their “blanche neige”

    PS whats blanche neige in english?

  25. Spree8nyk8

    I am really impressed with how gallo has really started using the drive so much more. He’s definitely fully incorporated it into his game.

  26. Nick C.

    Frank O.: Sometimes also the knicks are settling for a midrange, when a drive might have been more productive  

    A lot of standing around and “settling” for the jumped. Tho the 3% is pretty good.

  27. Spree8nyk8

    The announcer really just said “knicks not a very good shot blocking team so they should go to the basket”

  28. Nick C.

    Spree8nyk8: The announcer really just said “knicks not a very good shot blocking team so they should go to the basket”  

    lol that’s about the only defensive stat where they are above league average.

  29. art vandelay

    anyone else think toney douglas is a total bum….really doesn[t seem like a winning basketball player…a la nate robinson

  30. BigBlueAL

    Cavs worst offensie team in the NBA who can only shoot 3’s decent and the Knicks continually allow them to shoot wide-ass open 3’s.

  31. Spree8nyk8

    Well if we can dig this game out, looks like we could get some standings help to put us back where we were yesterday at least :|

  32. d-mar

    DS: So what are the Wizards doing tonight that we couldn’t last night?  

    Probably the fans are so out of it that LeBron can’t get motivated. We did an excellent job of motivating him last night.

  33. Spree8nyk8

    Droidz1979: Knicks are playing dumb ball and amare seems to be nowhere..  

    Yeah it’s gonna look like that most of the times he’s on the bench :)

  34. Frank O.

    Stat’s at 27 mins.
    Seems like they are trying to get him rest, but not a ton.
    Felton at 30 minutes out of 45 played.

  35. latke

    DS: So what are the Wizards doing tonight that we couldn’t last night?  

    playing Nick Young, who to me has seemed to have rip hamilton potential. For real though I think it’s the same thing with both the cavs and the knicks. You play an emotional game, it’s hard to come out the next night with focus and energy.

  36. Spree8nyk8

    Christ if there were ONE player I wish D’antoni would put on a leash it would be douglas, he shoots too god damn much

  37. Spree8nyk8

    Man I think if Denver said we want this guy this guy this guy and this guy for melo, we would have to counter and say NO!, you get those four guys AND douglas or the deals off!

  38. art vandelay

    douglas has taken a huge step back….guy can’t finish at the rim, run an offense, makes some bonehead defensive gambles….he is essentially just an occasionally capable 3-point shooter…don’t think he really adds much value…actually tonight he has been detracting it!

  39. Droidz1979

    no ball movement whatsoever for the Knicks… the fact that the Cavs has been missing wide open lay-ups the whole game and they stil lead by 1.. pathetic game.. Knicks seems to have lost its mojo and swagger

  40. Frank O.

    TD is now playing with an injured shoulder.
    He’s also been battling a bad back.
    But with not other reasonable pg to give Felton a blow, he’s got to play.
    But the Knicks announcers were saying the shoulder is affecting his shot

  41. DS

    I hate the Heat so f’ing much… I have never watched a team hand over a game the way the Wizardsjust did.

  42. Nick C.

    Foul to give came in handy there. Good D for 15 seconds and we get this. Crap now we need. ..I’m Atari loss for words.

  43. art vandelay

    these next 3 minutes may be the most important in the season….could be a turning point with the upcoming schedule….lose this one and it could start to get VERY ugly going forward…

  44. DS

    End of Heat game:
    Wizards lead by 5 with 27 seconds to go…
    :27 Chris Bosh makes 26-foot three point jumper 89-91
    0:19 Josh Howard draws the foul 89-91
    0:19 Howard makes free throw 1 of 2
    0:19 Josh Howard misses free throw 2 of 2
    0:18 Howard offensive rebound
    0:18 Josh Howard misses free throw 1 of 2 89-93
    0:16 Chris Bosh draws the foul
    0:16 Chris Bosh makes free throw 1 of 3 90-93
    0:16 Chris Bosh misses free throw 2 of 3 90-93
    0:16 Chris Bosh makes free throw 3 of 3 91-93
    0:13 Nick Young lost ball (James Jones steals)
    0:13 Nick Young personal foul (James Jones draws the foul)
    0:13 James Jones makes free throw 1 of 2 92-93
    0:13 James Jones makes free throw 2 of 2 93-93
    0:13 Washington full timeout
    0:12 Kirk Hinrich draws the foul
    0:12 Kirk Hinrich misses free throw 1 of 2
    0:12 Kirk Hinrich makes free throw 2 of 2 93-94
    Dwyane Wade draws the foul
    0:07 Dwyane Wade makes free throw 1 of 2 94-94
    0:07 Dwyane Wade makes free throw 2 of 2 95-94
    0:01 Kirk Hinrich (swatted hard) misses jumper
    GAME

  45. BigBlueAL

    Spree8nyk8:
    philly and minnesota were worse but it’s right up there  

    No this is by far the worst. Cavs on a 10 game losing streak and down 4 with less than a minute to go. Of course it might be a good loss if it brings this team back to reality.

  46. Spree8nyk8

    done with this shit, no heart, whatsoever. Trade them all. If you can’t at least show up then bust them up

  47. TheRant

    I’m watching OT on a Cleveland channel somehow so I’m hearing this one-sided announcing and watching the refs. It’s all very depressing. Like Andy Verejao is Moses Malone or something.

  48. Spree8nyk8

    super disgusting effort, I’m more pissed off now than any point during this season. I’m ashamed to support them.

  49. maurice lucas

    Look, Stoudemire would have no problem with Varejao, if you just got some rest last night as opposed to clubbing with Amber Rose past 2am

  50. d-mar

    Ok, Coach D’Antoni, it’s obvious other coaches have been watching game film and have figured out how to slow down Amare. You need to come up with some creative offensive sets that don’t involve giving the ball to Amare and hoping he can score. That loss really sucked, no excuse losing to that crap team.

  51. Spree8nyk8

    They are an embarrassment, we are so screwed on this ten game stretch it’s not even funny, right now I really don’t know how we maintain .500. Fortunately we’ll still be in a playoff spot but very undeservingly so.

  52. PC

    Its very frustrating to watch. How many times were we up 7 or 9 and all of a sudden they hit a few shots and we are back to being up only one. How do we not pull away and murder them? Shooting threes. We have yet to bury a team with threes (besides the Bulls that one crazy game). Threes keep us in games and sometimes give us solid leads – but it eventually gives the other team long rebounds and a few possessions to get back in it.

    D’Antoni should tweak his system. When we’re up 5,6,7 (that range) start taking the ball to the hoop and put the game away on the free throw line.

  53. BigBlueAL

    ltmurray: We knew they’d suck this game, didn’t we?  

    They did suck but had a 4 pt lead with 51 seconds left in the game. No excuses because the Cavs were also playing 2nd game of a back-to-back and were on a 10 game losing streak.

  54. marxster

    How come the Knicks don’t have a mascot? And how come the Cavs mascot is a moondog and not a cavalier?

  55. BigBlueAL

    Spree8nyk8: They are an embarrassment, we are so screwed on this ten game stretch it’s not even funny, right now I really don’t know how we maintain .500.Fortunately we’ll still be in a playoff spot but very undeservingly so.  

    You were the one saying this team should be in the Top 3 in the East and telling us that we should have higher expectations for this team than we were giving them credit for.

    The time to really start getting worried is after these next 2 home games since they are a lock of getting smoked in the back-to-back in Florida. If the Knicks bounce back and take care of business at home no need to worry much. If not then yes by mid-January they could be under .500 and in a major dog fight to make the playoffs but we aint there yet.

    16-12 is still a record I wouldve taken in a heartbeat before the season started let alone after they were 3-8.

  56. maurice lucas

    look at the upcoming schedule, the knicks won’t stand a chance staying above .500 by end of January. My prediction for their record bt 1/31 is 21-26. clinging on to the 8th spot in the Eastern Conference

  57. Spree8nyk8

    BigBlueAL:
    You were the one saying this team should be in the Top 3 in the East and telling us that we should have higher expectations for this team than we were giving them credit for.  

    What can I say, congrats on being right i guess. I don’t believe that when a team beats everyone on their schedule to assume that they can’t beat the teams they haven’t played. Now they have demonstrated that they can’t.

    I actually typed out a bunch of stuff that I’m gonna wait on because right now I’m just angry and I don’t want to rage post. I’m just utterly deflated that once again I let this team do this to me. I wish to god I were a fan of a good team, being a knicks fan is a curse.

  58. maurice lucas

    BigBlueAL:
    You were the one saying this team should be in the Top 3 in the East and telling us that we should have higher expectations for this team than we were giving them credit for.The time to really start getting worried is after these next 2 home games since they are a lock of getting smoked in the back-to-back in Florida.If the Knicks bounce back and take care of business at home no need to worry much.If not then yes by mid-January they could be under .500 and in a major dog fight to make the playoffs but we aint there yet.16-12 is still a record I wouldve taken in a heartbeat before the season started let alone after they were 3-8.  

    if you go back and look at the opponents they played in these 28 games, they should have been 18-10, if they beat those they are supposed to beat and lose to those they are supposed to lose. At 16-12, we are 2 games worse than what we are supposed to be

  59. BigBlueAL

    maurice lucas:
    if you go back and look at the opponents they played in these 28 games, they should have been 18-10, if they beat those they are supposed to beat and lose to those they are supposed to lose.At 16-12, we are 2 games worse than what we are supposed to be  

    Considering almost every single prediction I read had them winning between 37-40 games they are probably a bit ahead of where they are supposed to be right now.

  60. Spree8nyk8

    marxster: How come the Knicks don’t have a mascot? And how come the Cavs mascot is a moondog and not a cavalier?  

    I still wanna know why they have a chinese dancing squad….I think that had something to do with the loss. I’m sure of it. It’s disorienting, cause they have a regular dancing squad, but then it’s like they have this whole OTHER dancing squad that you have to be asian to join or something. Idk if that’s completely legal or not. Honestly I’m kinda surprised that Cleveland has a large enough asian population to have a complete female hot asian girl dance team. I mean it’s cleveland.

  61. BigBlueAL

    Spree8nyk8:
    What can I say, congrats on being right i guess.I don’t believe that when a team beats everyone on their schedule to assume that they can’t beat the teams they haven’t played.Now they have demonstrated that they can’t.I actually typed out a bunch of stuff that I’m gonna wait on because right now I’m just angry and I don’t want to rage post.I’m just utterly deflated that once again I let this team do this to me.I wish to god I were a fan of a good team, being a knicks fan is a curse.  

    I feel ya Spree about being frustrated as hell right now about this loss, hell just check my comments during the game.

    BUT once the game is over and its time to move we can be a bit more rational which I know is hard right after a loss like this. Hell Ive been plenty guilty of overreacting after tough losses but when I see their record at 16-12 it helps make me feel alot better.

    This current team is not nowhere near as good as the 90’s teams I grew up with and lived/died with so my expectations right now for this team is nowhere near what they were back then. Im still thrilled they are 16-12. Again admittedly these next 2 home games are huge because of the 2 games following which are as close to guaranteed losses as you can get. But they finally have some days off now so they should have their legs with them these next 2 games and face the Bulls w/o Noah.

    Even after tonight I had a decent feeling that they will be able to bounce back and win these next 2 tough games at home.

  62. Spree8nyk8

    I really believe with all of my heart they absolutely have to get Melo, and trust me, I’ve heard and understand all the arguments against it. But I just really think it’s gonna be needed.

  63. maurice lucas

    BigBlueAL:
    I feel ya Spree about being frustrated as hell right now about this loss, hell just check my comments during the game.BUT once the game is over and its time to move we can be a bit more rational which I know is hard right after a loss like this.Hell Ive been plenty guilty of overreacting after tough losses but when I see their record at 16-12 it helps make me feel alot better.This current team is not nowhere near as good as the 90?s teams I grew up with and lived/died with so my expectations right now for this team is nowhere near what they were back then.Im still thrilled they are 16-12.Again admittedly these next 2 home games are huge because of the 2 games following which are as close to guaranteed losses as you can get.But they finally have some days off now so they should have their legs with them these next 2 games and face the Bulls w/o Noah.Even after tonight I had a decent feeling that they will be able to bounce back and win these next 2 tough games at home.  

    the knicks better win at home on wednesday – OKC is scheduled to play the night below while the knicks rests.
    the knicks better beat chicago on 12/25 – noah is out and chicago is losing to the clippers at home tonite without noah playing kurt thomas at center

  64. maurice lucas

    Carmelo Anthony’s last 3 games:
    DATE OPP RESULT MIN FG PCT 3P PCT FT PCT STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
    12/12 @Nyk
    L 129-125 37 11-27 .407 0-6
    .000 9-9 1.000 0 1 4 3 5 8 13 3 31
    12/14 Orl
    W 111-94 38 14-21 .667 0-2
    .000 7-11 .636 0 0 6 2 1 10 11 2 35
    12/16 Sas
    L 113-112 42 10-20 .500 1-1
    1.000 10-14 .714 1 0 2 3 1 8 9 3 31

  65. PC

    Melo has no stars on his team and he wins 55 games a year each year in the difficult western conference.

    Him and STAT would poop on the east.

    In crunch time – we don’t get key buckets. Stat turns it over too much Melo would get to the hoop or pull up for easy elbow jumpers.

  66. latke

    Okay, I’ve had some time to ponder and unwind. This was a throwback game for us. Stoudemire had 8 turnovers and was only 8/19 from the field. The reason for that is that, similar to the second half vs. the heat, he forced things. This is a good SSOL team, but it only works when when the ball moves. Stoudemire, and to a lesser degree Felton, were taking far too many shots. The reason for the Amare explosion we saw in the win streaks was not so much that he was scoring better but that he was making fast decisions. Defense overplaying him? give the ball up immediately. Once Stoudemire starts holding the ball or puts the ball on the floor, he is neither the dribbler nor the ball handler to create a good opportunity for himself or the team. All his shots should be no more than one dribble, and he should never have possession of hte ball for more than a couple of seconds. It’s Felton’s fault as well. We saw Stoudemire catching the ball 15-20 feet out — just like back when he was averaging 18 TOs early in the season. I hope it doesn’t take another six game losing streak for stoudemire and felton to put the kind of trust in the rest of the guys that they did during the hot streak.

  67. latke

    PC: Melo has no stars on his team and he wins 55 games a year each year in the difficult western conference.
    Him and STAT would poop on the east.In crunch time – we don’t get key buckets. Stat turns it over too much Melo would get to the hoop or pull up for easy elbow jumpers.  

    I don’t think this is fair. Based on the last two fourth quarters you might argue this, but what one of the things that was so amazing during that hot streak was how resilient the knicks were in the fourth quarter. In fact, Stoudemire I believe leads the league (or is close to it) in 4th quarter scoring.

  68. BigBlueAL

    latke: Okay, I’ve had some time to ponder and unwind.This was a throwback game for us.Stoudemire had 8 turnovers and was only 8/19 from the field.The reason for that is that, similar to the second half vs. the heat, he forced things.This is a good SSOL team, but it only works when when the ball moves.Stoudemire, and to a lesser degree Felton, were taking far too many shots.The reason for the Amare explosion we saw in the win streaks was not so much that he was scoring better but that he was making fast decisions.Defense overplaying him? give the ball up immediately.Once Stoudemire starts holding the ball or puts the ball on the floor, he is neither the dribbler nor the ball handler to create a good opportunity for himself or the team. All his shots should be no more than one dribble, and he should never have possession of hte ball for more than a couple of seconds. It’s Felton’s fault as well.We saw Stoudemire catching the ball 15-20 feet out — just like back when he was averaging 18 TOs early in the season.I hope it doesn’t take another six game losing streak for stoudemire and felton to put the kind of trust in the rest of the guys that they did during the hot streak.  

    Gallo tonight was 3 for 14, 1 for 10 from 3pt. Chandler was 5 for 14, 2 for 6 from 3pt. TD was 3 for 11, 1 for 5 from 3pt. They are the reason the Knicks lost.

    Felton was actually very good tonight, 9 for 19 and 3 for 7 from 3pt is not great but certainly not bad plus he had 7 rebs, 2 stls and 11 asts with only 2 to’s. Amar’e had another rough shooting night with 8 to’s but he had 11 rebs, 4 blks and 3 stls so he actually brought it defensively. Actually the team for the most part played very good D until the final 51 secs of regulation and the entire OT which was some brutal defense.

  69. BigBlueAL

    If Gallo just shoots bad tonight, not even good or average just bad, instead of the awful/horrible shooting he had tonight the Knicks win easily. Besides his horrible shooting he only had 2 rebs, asts and 1 stl. He provided absolutely nothing tonight and really is the main if not only reason the Knicks lost tonight.

    I love Gallo and the fact that he is only 22 yo makes it alot easier to understand/accept his inconsistencies but its really is frustrating when he has a game like tonight because it really did basically directly lead to the Knicks losing.

  70. jon abbey

    yeah, Melo brings it pretty much every night, I can only imagine the offensive numbers he’d put up playing for D’Antoni.

    Varejao played unbelievable tonight, outplaying Amare head to head. that’s not going to happen too often, but it’s nice when it does if you have a second guy who can take over. Gallinari is ideally a #3, a Kukoc type.

  71. PC

    fourth quarter scoring means nothing. under two minutes to go we have seen stoudemire fail and felton take crazy running shots.

    Melo gets buckets and to the free throw line under two minutes. No debate about that.

  72. BigBlueAL

    Still, all the Knicks needed was 1 stop out of 2 possessions in the final minute and they couldnt get one against arguably the worst offensive team in the NBA.

  73. GHenman

    I think it’s time to give Mason or Rautins some of TD’s minutes. For whatever reason, he’s been awful.

  74. NYK Ewing

    Going to quote what I said right before the Boston game. I love being right.

    NYK Ewing:It’s honestly ridiculous how shortsighted people are about any and every Knicks issue. People are talking here as if we’ve played almost the whole season against great teams. We’re played a quarter of the season with the second-easiest schedule.

    Remember how big the “Fire Dantoni” crowd was at 3-8? “He can’t coach defense or rebounds.” Guess what – we’re one of the worst in the league in points allowed and sub-average in rebounding still. But that doesn’t matter because we’re winning, regardless that we’ve only played a garbage schedule.

    If what people are saying is “Let’s wait to see how this squad will do against good teams before thinking about trades.” Then I agree – but the tone has been much more about “This current team is a contender right now let’s keep them through the season,” which is utterly absurd when we have no clue how we fare against good playoff teams with such a small sample size.

    I guarantee – guar-an-tee – that if we lose most of these upcoming games (or drop an easy one, say against Cleveland) – the tide will turn to “These Knicks really don’t have the pieces to be a contender, we need to trade to work on interior D and get a backup PG.” Which is more sensible. But I bet some will even think “We really need another great option to have a chance, like Melo.” I don’t necessarily agree with that sentiment as much as the first one, but to say we don’t need any changes because we’ve been winning against bad teams is silly. That’s the best word I can think of for that mentality.  

  75. latke

    BigBlueAL:
    Gallo tonight was 3 for 14, 1 for 10 from 3pt.Chandler was 5 for 14, 2 for 6 from 3pt.TD was 3 for 11, 1 for 5 from 3pt.They are the reason the Knicks lost.Felton was actually very good tonight, 9 for 19 and 3 for 7 from 3pt is not great but certainly not bad plus he had 7 rebs, 2 stls and 11 asts with only 2 to’s.Amar’e had another rough shooting night with 8 to’s but he had 11 rebs, 4 blks and 3 stls so he actually brought it defensively.Actually the team for the most part played very good D until the final 51 secs of regulation and the entire OT which was some brutal defense.  

    Felton carried us by making a lot of difficult shots. If the offense is run well, nobody has to take difficult shots. His stats were good, but as the orchestrator of the offense, he has to take the biggest responsibility for the fact that the offense was terrible. I thought the defense was above average. The offense was just terrible.

    As far as Gallo goes, he took bad shots. Part of that is his fault for not putting the ball on the floor when the defense closed out on the shot, but part of it again is the fact that he was not getting the ball off of penetration or an interior pass to amare. Again though I see it as evidence of how reliant this offense is on amare and felton making good decisions. If amare can’t keep the ball moving when the defense sags in on him, then he’s as good offensively as eddy curry (I know i know I’m exaggerating).

  76. Nick C.

    One crappy loss and everyone is jumping off bridges and looking at a guy who couldn’t even lead his team to a win against this apparently awful team much less get the call when he draws contact from Gallo. NYKEw

    latke:
    Felton carried us by making a lot of difficult shots.If the offense is run well, nobody has to take difficult shots.His stats were good, but as the orchestrator of the offense, he has to take the biggest responsibility for the fact that the offense was terrible.I thought the defense was above average.The offense was just terrible.As far as Gallo goes, he took bad shots.Part of that is his fault for not putting the ball on the floor when the defense closed out on the shot, but part of it again is the fact that he was not getting the ball off of penetration or an interior pass to amare.Again though I see it as evidence of how reliant this offense is on amare and felton making good decisions.If amare can’t keep the ball moving when the defense sags in on him, then he’s as good offensively as eddy curry (I know i know I’m exaggerating).  

    ing obviously had this pegged right.

  77. Nick C.

    How the hell did that quote get in there? Inept typing aside its one game. Miami barely beat Washington last night it happens.

  78. Abasi

    The Knicks’ problems have no easy solution: if D’antoni doesn’t play Amare & Felton a whole lot of minutes, the team regresses to the performances of the last few years. On the other hand, playing them so many minutes means that the team is running on adrenaline and will burn out soon.

    The short rotation along with the lack of defense will doom this team – I have been saying it for a while. Even when the wins against terrible opposition were masking the many flaws. And, no, the solution is not to bring one more scorer. Melo only makes sense if a legit center plays some defense. But the reality is that D’antoni will not play a legit center.

    Walsh has a very tough decision to make: keep building in the D’antoni mold and risk ending with a very unbalanced roster without D’antoni (a la current suns) or cut his losses short?

  79. Jimmy C

    I didn’t think I was going to be able to watch this game, as I was at a Holiday Party for most of the night. We then met up with a few friends at a bar — in Massachusetts, no less — that just so happened to have the end of the game on NBA TV. Needless to say it ruined my night.

    D’Antoni said it best: it was gut check time, and we failed the test. That was a classic trap game if there ever was one. Our offense was nowhere to be found, we looked tired and deflated and Cleveland just wanted it more.

    But to all those out there — and I counted myself in this camp briefly — who think that getting Melo would have necessarily prevented any or all of these last three losses, I have to say that’s a little unrealistic. The nature of this offense dictates that the extreme outliers will include games like this. And while it’s easy to suggest that “if Melo had taken that last shot, or had been on the floor against the Celtics, everything would have worked out” is too hypothetical to have as as THE basis of the argument to grab him now and at a high cost.

    BigBlueAl is right, as long as we take care of business these next two days, there’s no reason to panic. This is still a young team that is finding its way in an offensive system that is easy to learn, but damn near impossible to master. I think beating OKC and Chicago will erase the bad taste left by the last few losses and get us back to even keel. We just have to understand and appreciate that this team is probably going to be streaky all year. But they WILL improve, I’m certain of that.

  80. cgreene

    Jimmy C: I didn’t think I was going to be able to watch this game, as I was at a Holiday Party for most of the night. We then met up with a few friends at a bar — in Massachusetts, no less — that just so happened to have the end of the game on NBA TV. Needless to say it ruined my night.
    D’Antoni said it best: it was gut check time, and we failed the test. That was a classic trap game if there ever was one. Our offense was nowhere to be found, we looked tired and deflated and Cleveland just wanted it more.
    But to all those out there — and I counted myself in this camp briefly — who think that getting Melo would have necessarily prevented any or all of these last three losses, I have to say that’s a little unrealistic. The nature of this offense dictates that the extreme outliers will include games like this. And while it’s easy to suggest that “if Melo had taken that last shot, or had been on the floor against the Celtics, everything would have worked out” is too hypothetical to have as as THE basis of the argument to grab him now and at a high cost.
    BigBlueAl is right, as long as we take care of business these next two days, there’s no reason to panic. This is still a young team that is finding its way in an offensive system that is easy to learn, but damn near impossible to master. I think beating OKC and Chicago will erase the bad taste left by the last few losses and get us back to even keel. We just have to understand and appreciate that this team is probably going to be streaky all year. But they WILL improve, I’m certain of that.  

    Well said, Jimmy. By all pre-season expectations we are ahead of schedule as an organization right now with flexibility to boot. Anywhere from 42-45 wins and a 6 seed would be terrific. And 42-45 win teams have games like last night. We are young. We are fun. We have one of the best players in the league.

  81. PC

    Why is wanted to execute a fair trade for Melo panicking?

    Nobody wants to sell the farm for Melo. I sure as hell don’t want to give away the whole roster for him. Donnie wouldn’t do that.

    I just want Melo because he’s filthy at basketball and I want as many of those cats as possible. But never at the cost of the TEAM.

    Melo wouldn’t have fixed those losses but I think he would make us less predictable at the end of games. Felton and STAT could run a pick and roll and if it doesn’t work you can swing it to Melo for an isolation. The STAT isolations late in games are not good plays to run.

  82. Spree8nyk8

    Jimmy C:
    But to all those out there — and I counted myself in this camp briefly — who think that getting Melo would have necessarily prevented any or all of these last three losses, I have to say that’s a little unrealistic.  

    I think that thinking having Melo would have made no difference in any of those games is also a bit naive though….

    Jimmy C: BigBlueAl is right, as long as we take care of business these next two days, there’s no reason to panic. I think beating OKC and Chicago will erase the bad taste left by the last few losses and get us back to even keel.  

    I agree 100% with this comment, 2 wins would do that….But what will 2 losses do? Because we just lost to friggin cleveland, and going from losing to cleveland to beating OKC and Chicago just seems a bit optimistic to me. But just to go along with the hypothesis, does this mean if they should lose these two games that you think it’s time to get melo?

  83. Ben R

    That game was disappointing. But no need to panic. All teams have bad games. We had a really bad game and still almost won. We will be fine. One thing that struck me was that we are much better than Cleveland. We are a better team than the Torontos, Clevelands, Wahingtons, Charlottes, etc of the world. We are much closer to Chicago and Atlanta than Indiana and Milwaukee. We are a solid, not borderline playoff team. But we are not elite, at least not yet and there will be bad games, rough stretches.

    I still don’t think we need Melo. We just need to put this behind us and play the way we should against Oklahoma City. Clearly we were still thinking about the Miami game. Amare was forcing things, players were not being patient. We started rollling when Amare took his foot off the gas and let the game come to him. We will get it back. A couple days off and we will come back strong.

  84. Jimmy C

    Spree8nyk8: But what will 2 losses do? Because we just lost to friggin cleveland, and going from losing to cleveland to beating OKC and Chicago just seems a bit optimistic to me. But just to go along with the hypothesis, does this mean if they should lose these two games that you think it’s time to get melo?

    If this skid hits 6 games or more, then maybe it’s time to press the panic button. But I don’t see that happening. I know it seems unlikely that we’d bounce back with two huge wins after these last three losses, but the first two were hugely emotional and probably more than a little draining, and last night was just an unfortunate flat night on a pretty brutal back to back.

    At the end of the day, I don’t think anyone on this thread is absolutely 100% anti-Melo. I think some of us just worry about how much we’re going to have to give up. That being said, I think it’s safe to say we’re in pretty stable hands with Donnie, in that he’s never been one to make the kind of move that would gut the franchise. I think people are concerned that there’s no way Melo is going to wait til the offseason and not do a sign-and-trade, simply because the new CBA is looking like it won’t be as lucrative for the players. But I wouldn’t put it past him to take that haircut if it meant coming to a Knicks team with a lot more firepower around him, even if it means a smaller paycheck. We saw the big 3 in Miami do it, albeit under different circumstances. But this also doesn’t take into account Denver, who doesn’t want what happened to Toronto to happen to them.

    I think it all depends on how Melo plays his cards between now and the trade deadline. If the deadline arrives at the Nuggets don’t feel like Anthony has a chance in hell in staying, they might pull the trigger on something more attractive than the scenarios being thrown around by Sherridan,…

  85. Doug

    The way I see it now is that Melo is more of a want than a need for this team. He builds on the Knicks’ strengths but not really their weaknesses.

    If we sign him as an FA then it costs only non being able to re-sign Chandler. I’m all for that.

  86. Shad0wF0x

    If we can trade for Andre Miller and Marcus Camby (without gutting the team hopefully), are we still capable of signing Carmelo as a Free Agent?

  87. Spree8nyk8

    Shad0wF0x: If we can trade for Andre Miller and Marcus Camby (without gutting the team hopefully), are we still capable of signing Carmelo as a Free Agent?  

    No, would be next to impossible.

  88. Ben R

    I don’t think there is a panic button. We are a very young team. We are built to compete in a couple of years. 3 of our 5 starters are on rookie contracts. We need to make sure that whatever moves we make or don’t make are made with the future in mind. Regardless of how the rest of this month goes I think we have shown ourselves to be a playoff team. I think we have solidified ourselves as a middle of the pack playoff team in the East. No matter what we do we are not elevating ourselves into the elite this year. Melo won’t make us elite, Camby and Miller won’t make us elite. Right now we are a lttle behind Chicago and Atlanta but younger than both and if we continue to develop could be better by next year.

    We need experience. We need to learn not to let down after a bad loss and come out flat. We need to learn how to win close games. We need to learn how to win in the playoffs. It’s a long road to build a contender. This year is only the first step. The last thing we need to do is gamble on aging players, or overrater all-stars in an atempt to shortcut the process.

  89. Spree8nyk8

    I don’t see that strategy working out honestly. I mean I just don’t think if you keep these same guys that somewhere down the line they become an elite team. They need allstar type help. And you only have so many years that Amar’e will play to this type of form. The other thing is that if you don’t add these pieces now, all these rookie contract guys are going to eventually cost more money. So we can either get the help now and then go beyond the cap later to keep our homegrowns, or we can do nothing now and nothing later. We are already going to lose wilson chandler. We need to start securing talent while we can.

    I know people watched us get capped out and not have room to maneuver for a long time and are ancy about spending money. But that was because we signed bad guys to bad contracts. We need to spend a lot of money but just spend it on good players. It’s ok to be over the cap if you are over with guys who can be moved if you need to. But the sit back and see what this team turns into approach is going to do nothing but save Dolan money. It will not provide Knicks fans with a championship.

  90. Spree8nyk8

    Doug: The way I see it now is that Melo is more of a want than a need for this team. He builds on the Knicks’ strengths but not really their weaknesses.If we sign him as an FA then it costs only non being able to re-sign Chandler. I’m all for that.  

    Just because Melo wants to be in NY does not mean he’s willing to leave that extension out there. If NY does not make a move for him it is very likely that he will eventually cave in and sign. Him saying NY and NY only gives the Knicks some leverage to work with, but it doesn’t mean that he’ll automatically be there as a free agent.

  91. latke

    Doug: The way I see it now is that Melo is more of a want than a need for this team. He builds on the Knicks’ strengths but not really their weaknesses.If we sign him as an FA then it costs only non being able to re-sign Chandler. I’m all for that.  

    We also lose access to the MLE, and we probably have to give up something in the sign and trade (randolph maybe?). We also can’t sign other bird rights players, like Turiaf if he opts out of his last year or Shawne Williams. These are not huge losses, but they are better than the minimum contract dudes that would replace them.

    Ben R: Right now we are a lttle behind Chicago and Atlanta but younger than both and if we continue to develop could be better by next year.

    Agree 100%, and I think our youth is often overlooked on these boards. Gallo and Chandler should improve for at least the next two years. Mozgov will perhaps as well.

    Ben R: It’s a long road to build a contender.

    Here’ I’ll have to point out that we have Amare for five years. At the end of that contract he’ll be 32 and probably too old to be a franchise cornerstone. Players that come out of high school have a reputation for declining a couple years earlier than those who stay in school. IMHO you want to be contending by, at minimum, 2012/13, and ideally by next year. This will give us 2-3 years to try to win a title with Amare. Look at what Orlando is doing with Howard. They recognize that they have a superstar talent, and he won’t be around forever. I’m not saying we’re in the same position, as our youth is far more promising, but we’re not that far off.

  92. Doug

    latke – So according to the CBA, it would hurt us more to be under the cap because we wouldn’t have MLE and Bird Rights privilege? That’s messed up.

  93. JK47

    I saw on here the other day that someone compared Melo to Al Harrington and theorized that they are similar players. And if you look at their performance this year, you see that Al Buckets matches Carmelo in TS% and bests Melo in eFG%.

    But then you look a little deeper and it’s obvious that Melo is a FAR better player. Melo’s a better rebounder: 13.6 to 11.0 percent. Melo is a far better passer: 17.2 to 10.8 percent assist percentage. Melo steals the ball slightly more: 1.4 to 1.1 percent. Melo blocks shots at twice the rate: 1.4 to 0.6 percent. Melo turns the ball over less often, 11.2 to 12.2 percent despite having far higher usage, 31.8 to 22.2 percent.

    Add it all up and Melo’s PER is 21.2 while Fraggle’s is 12.7. Maybe you like WS/48 better. Melo doubles up Harrington, .120 to .060. They’re similar players, it’s just that one is about twice as valuable as the other.

  94. ess-dog

    Camby already has 5.2 wins produced this year, even at his advanced age. I would love to bring him in but I don’t know if it makes sense long term.
    I’m a firm believer in keeping space open for CP3/DWill in 2012. I think Camby is expiring in 2012, but it would limit other moves until then.
    Also not sure we should discount Iguodala in a trade. He could come cheaper than Melo (Curry + AR + TD?) and help at the 2 would let Fields slide down to the 3, either starting or off the bench.

  95. latke

    Doug: latke – So according to the CBA, it would hurt us more to be under the cap because we wouldn’t have MLE and Bird Rights privilege? That’s messed up.

    Sort of. You never get more than just the MLE ($6 million probably), so you’re never going to get a star. That’s why it’s so hard to build a team without going through the draft. Via the draft, you can fill your team with low cost assets, then if they develop, you can sign a star or two before the younguns get their first payday.

    Here are the draft picks we’ve given up in the last ten years along with the players they became:
    02, #7: Nene Hilario (McDyess trade)
    04, #16: Kirk Snyder (Marbury trade)
    06, #2: Lamarcus Aldridge (Curry trade)
    07, #9: Joakim Noah (Curry trade – swapped for #23 pick that became Wilson Chandler)

    The problem, as the last ten years have shown for the knicks, is recognizing when you have the young players to make it worthwhile to acquire a star and when you do not. Because you rarely get the opportunity to trade your overpaid players (even when they’re expiring) for legitimate stars. What you end up with are players who are too good not to get paid big bucks but not good enough to lead a contender: Marbury (attitude), McDyess (injury), Curry (lazy, dumb). KG to Boston and Shaq to LA are the two recent exceptions I can think of, and even in those situations, Boston and LA utilized cap space as part of the trade.

    That doesnt mean that trading for a flawed player is always a bad idea. If you have the leadership and the surrounding pieces, sometimes its the only way to get yourself over the top. For example, the heat traded a promising core of Butler and Odom for a 34 y/o Shaq. They won a championship. There are similarities between that Heat team, which came out of nowhere to win 42 games, and this Knick team. Is melo the right guy to get us there? At what cost? I’m…

  96. latke

    JK47: Al Buckets matches Carmelo in TS% and bests Melo in eFG%.

    career-wise, ‘melo is @ .543 TS% and Harrington is .523. Big difference. But yeah, the other stats separate them even more significantly, and the WS/48 shows that. Harrington career ws/48: .073, Anthony: .125.

  97. GHenman

    ess-dog: Camby already has 5.2 wins produced this year, even at his advanced age. I would love to bring him in but I don’t know if it makes sense long term.I’m a firm believer in keeping space open for CP3/DWill in 2012. I think Camby is expiring in 2012, but it would limit other moves until then.Also not sure we should discount Iguodala in a trade. He could come cheaper than Melo (Curry + AR + TD?) and help at the 2 would let Fields slide down to the 3, either starting or off the bench.  (Quote)

    I think Iguodala or Jason Richarson would be a better fit and also cheaper than Melo?

  98. Spree8nyk8

    And there lies the problem, Miami has their team locked up forever. And they’ll only get better with their annual MLE’s and such. That is why it’s important to get melo and get an MLE so we can keep up with the jones’s. I know everyone says boston is the team to beat, but whether it’s this year or a coming year Miami is going to be the team to beat, I don’t see waiting for our guys to develop as being a realistic strategy. Honestly, I see it as reliving the Jordan Bulls years…..I’m also not super worried about trying to get CP3 or DWill, Felton is proving he’s right up there, he’s barely off their pace and giving him a carmelo to dish to can only help.

  99. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Man, if you really think that a long-term deal to put us over the cap is the best thing for this franchise, you are out of your mind.

  100. Ben R

    It is very hard to win a championship in the NBA. Generally you need at least a top five player if not the best player in the league. We do not have a top five player, Amare is probably top 10. If you do not have a top 5 player alot of things have to go just right.

    The chance that our current core develops and we can put together a contender is slim but I would say if Chandler improves next year like he has every year he’s been in the league, Gallo becomes the player we want him to be, Fields fulfills the potential we’ve seen so far this year and Randolph develops into the player he’s shown glimpses of we might with a couple of good smaller moves have enough to truly compete.

    That would take just about everything going right, but I still think that’s our best shot at winning it all. Especially if we possibly have a shot at Paul in 2012. (Assuming Paul is not a shell of himself by then)

    This is why we do not morgage the future going after Melo. Trading for Melo would most likely mean losing Randolph, Gallo and Fields in the trade and having to let Chandler go in the offseason. It would destroy any chance at Paul in 2012. It would strip away upside and fill our team with fully developed players. The team we have after the trade would, for the most part be the team we have for the forseeable future, small MLE signings aside.

    If and only if we think that Amare, Melo, Felton and a handful of replacement level players has a chance to win a title should we roll the dice and make the trade.

    I don’t think it’s enough. Melo does not get us over the hump and the loss of every good young player we have and all cap flexibility moving forward is too high a price.

  101. Brian Cronin

    This is why we do not morgage the future going after Melo. Trading for Melo would most likely mean losing Randolph, Gallo and Fields in the trade and having to let Chandler go in the offseason. It would destroy any chance at Paul in 2012. It would strip away upside and fill our team with fully developed players. The team we have after the trade would, for the most part be the team we have for the forseeable future, small MLE signings aside.

    I’m totally with you in terms of “it would take too much young, cheap talent to acquire Melo, so it does not make sense,” however I differ with a couple of the positions in this statement.

    First off, if they trade for Melo and extend him, they would then be able to re-sign Chandler, since they could then go over the cap to re-sign him (provided you’re allowed to do that next season). It would also give the Knicks the MLE to use (provided there is an MLE next season).

    Secondly, it would not destroy any chance of getting Paul. It would just make it a lot less likely to get Paul. In 2012, the Knicks could have Chandler and Felton’s expiring contract to trade for Paul, plus a draft pick probably. That might not be an awful trade at all for a player leaving for free agency anyways.

    But besides those points, I agree, Melo is a waste of money. Very good player, but not a great one (and certainly not a $20 million dollar one), and I’d just as soon see the Knicks use up their salary cap this year through trades for multiple players and also be in the situation to use the MLE next season (a trade of Curry, Randolph, Mason and Walker for Camby and Miller, for instance, would get the Knicks over the cap so that they could use the MLE and re-sign Chandler and re-sign Azubuike and extend Turiaf and lock-up Gallo, putting them over the cap to the point where they would easily have assets that could be used to trade for Paul in 2012 (a locked-up Gallo and an extended Chandler, plus whoever the MLE guy is, plus Azubuike plus whoever).

    Now, the question is – is Portland desperate enough to deal Miller? If it is just Camby, then the Knicks would have to be a bit more creative – but you get the idea, Randolph is worth a decent chunk of talent on the open market, so if the Knicks just want to deal him with Curry, they could easily get players who would take them over the cap next season without destroying their cap. I’d sure prefer Camby and Miller for two years at $21 million per year to Melo for five years at $21 million per.

    And, again, Camby/Miller is just something I’m tossing around because someone else mentioned it, I haven’t really explored the trade market out there – it just seems pretty clear that Curry/Randolph could easily get you some decent talent making more than Curry/Randolph (but not too much, like Arenas, Lewis, Brand, Melo, Baron Davis, etc.).

  102. BigBlueAL

    I read an article today with quotes from Melo saying he is definitely signing the extension, its just a matter of signing it in Denver or with whichever team he is traded to. The plot thickens….

  103. latke

    Ben R: Trading for Melo would most likely mean losing Randolph, Gallo and Fields

    There is absolutely no way we pay this much (sheridan be damned). Bosh, James, and Stoudemire all left for between a 2nd round pick and two late firsts. The current GM for Denver was an assistant at Toronto last season when they ended up losing Bosh for virtually nothing. He is not going to let the same thing happen again, so come the trade deadline, if ‘Melo holds strong to the claim that he won’t extend with anyone but the knicks, Denver will take the scraps we toss them.

    Ben R: [If our young players develop and] Especially if we possibly have a shot at Paul in 2012 [we could be contenders]

    Let’s make this perfectly clear. Right now, we only have one player with a guaranteed contract that runs past next season: Amare. What that means is that we could go out and sign Deron Williams and Dwight Howard. In that circumstance though, we would have like $5-$8 million left over to fill out the roster. That means that we aren’t going to resign any of our young guys. The problem is, at some point we have to commit. Do we go with our young guys and hope they develop, or do we go for the homerun swing?

    If we’re keeping our young players, then at minimum before the trade deadline next season, we have to fill our roster with longer term contracts (for example, Carmelo Anthony). Why? Because when we resign felton, Gallo, and Fields during the summer of 2012, they will consume any cap space we do have anyway, and if they have long term contracts, we will be capped out no matter what for several years. If not, then, as Brian suggests, Camby and Miller, who both expire after next season, could at least be stopgap solutions so that the team is decent next year.

  104. latke

    Okay I’m about to eat my words, at least a little. You’re right, Ben. We could conceivably sign williams or paul and still have money left:

    $40 million in cap space
    $18 million for Williams/Paul
    $7.3 million each for Fields, Gallo, and Felton

    That still means no Chandler anymore though, and if Gallo and Fields improve and Felton sustains his level of play, they may demand more $s. Even so,

    Amare
    (power forward?)
    Gallinari
    Fields
    Deron Williams

    tastes pretty good in my mouth.

  105. Spree8nyk8

    Ben R: This is why we do not morgage the future going after Melo. Trading for Melo would most likely mean losing Randolph, Gallo and Fields in the trade and having to let Chandler go in the offseason. It would destroy any chance at Paul in 2012.
      

    This is incorrect. If Gallo were part of the trade (which is not necessarily the case, I think Chandler will be in and gallo out) we could easily resign Chandler in the offseason. We do have his bird rights, but we’d have to renounce those rights if were trying to sign Melo as a free agent. If we get him in a trade we don’t have to renounce him. Also Chris Paul is hardly the safe route to go. We have Felton getting 19 & 9 which is top 5 for pg’s. Theres no need to change there. And with as shaky as chris pauls knee is, THAT is a risk. And it’s a huge one. Melo is perfectly healthy. Might want to think about that.

    As far as Amar’e not being a top 5 player, well I don’t know what to say about that, I think he is. I think he has a reasonable shot at MVP this year if the Knicks don’t tank.

  106. Spree8nyk8

    latke: Okay I’m about to eat my words, at least a little.You’re right, Ben.We could conceivably sign williams or paul and still have money left:$40 million in cap space
    $18 million for Williams/Paul
    $7.3 million each for Fields, Gallo, and FeltonThat still means no Chandler anymore though, and if Gallo and Fields improve and Felton sustains his level of play, they may demand more $s.Even so,Amare
    (power forward?)
    Gallinari
    Fields
    Deron Williamstastes pretty good in my mouth.  

    See this is what I don’t get, you are against melo who is a gigantic upgrade over Chandler because he “costs too much” but Felton makes 2.5x less than what Dwill is going to costs, he’s 3 ppg less and about half an assist less, but 7mill as opposed to 18mill and we already have him. Why do you want to throw all the money away on a position we already are solid at? Basically your idea is that we wait two more years, keep the same team and just add a slightly better PG? That doesn’t seem like a great idea at all to me.

    Felton, Melo, Gallo, Amare, Azu probably beats the four players you listed on most days (although you didn’t even name our fifth player, which makes it even worse, because evidently 2 years from now we are thinner than we already are).

    That being said whose to say that Dwill is even going to leave his team? CP3 MAY leave, but his knee isn’t going to hold up long term.

    You guys say the Melo talk is irrational but these cp3 and dwill conversations are maniacal.

  107. Ben R

    Spree – I’m not saying wait for Paul. If we go the youth route we will keep our flexability and have the option of going after a paul or Howard or whoever becomes availiable in the future. That’s the benefit of filling your roster with smaller, shorter contracts, you can always make changes if you need to. By going the youth route our roster would keep our flexability until at least the summer of 2012 when we have to resign Gallo, Randolph and Fields. By then we should know exactly how good our young players are and can go all in at that point or keep looking for ways to get better.

    Most people thought Philly signing Elton Brand was a homerun and that pairing him with Iguodala and Lou Williams and Dalembert would give Philly a great team for years to come. Only it didn’t work out that way and Philly couldn’t manuver and is now stuck in mediocrity for years. Orlando thought Lewis was enough to put them over the hump and crippled their ability to make manuvers when they signed him.

    When you sign that second star and make that huge free agent splash you only get one shot. If you go all in with the wrong player you get mired in mediocity. Many of us here think Carmelo is the wrong player and that by signing, or even worse trading for, him we would be making a Brand to Philly or Lewis to Orlando level mistake.

  108. Garson

    Ben… The differance between Brand, Lewis and Melo is that Melo will always have value at the max and can always be traded if things go south. Worse case scenerio we can always ship him across the brooklyn bridge for 4 first rounders and Favors. Now that i think about it, Maybe we should trade for him and flip him to the nets without melo knowing!

  109. Z

    Ben R: Orlando thought Lewis was enough to put them over the hump and crippled their ability to make manuvers when they signed him.When you sign that second star and make that huge free agent splash you only get one shot. If you go all in with the wrong player you get mired in mediocity.   

    I don’t quite get this. You can’t say Lewis didn;t put Orlando over the hump when, in fact, they got over the hump. They upset the heavily favored Cavs to get into the finals. That is the hump, and they got over it.

    Additionally, he didn’t cripple their ability to make maneuvers. They added a 3rd max contract the next year (Vince Carter), and were able to unload Lewis and Carter the next year for two players for a package of players who will make them a better team.

    There’s no reason why Anthony or Amar’e can’t be traded for Chris Paul in 15 months. Or Durant in 2013 if things sour in OKC. Or Blake Griffin if he holds Donald Sterling hostage a la Carmelo in Denver.

    Carmelo Anthony is not Eddy Curry. He doesn’t have weight or injury history. He has an insurable contract. He’s a better basketball player. He doesn’t cripple our flexibility going forward. He helps it. (Perceived value trumps real value when it comes to cap flexibility).

  110. Z

    Spree8nyk8:
    See this is what I don’t get, you are against melo who is a gigantic upgrade over Chandler because he “costs too much” but Felton makes 2.5x less than what Dwill is going to costs, he’s 3 ppg less and about half an assist less, but 7mill as opposed to 18mill and we already have him.Why do you want to throw all the money away on a position we already are solid at?   

    The way the CBA is designed, you pay exponentially higher prices for the premium talent. Sure, Paul isn’t 250% more productive than Felton, yet makes 250% more money. But Paul IS better than Felton, and you want to build your teams with the best players money can buy.

    Carmelo v. Chandler is a similar situation, just as Amar’e v. Lee was too. I think you are right to make the comparison. But the difference is that Paul really is a player that transcends his position, whereas Carmelo is not.

  111. Aharon

    I’m headed in to town and will catch the game against the Thunder. I’m extremely excited, but feel like the enthusiasm from the last few weeks has died down.

  112. ess-dog

    Z:
    I don’t quite get this. You can’t say Lewis didn;t put Orlando over the hump when, in fact, they got over the hump. They upset the heavily favored Cavs to get into the finals. That is the hump, and they got over it.  

    Yeah, the Zach Randolph signing was much worse. What a bunch of morons…

    Paul and Deron are top 10 players right now. I would go for them.
    You could argue that Melo is top 20, so if you could get him without hurting your chances at Paul or Deron, and without losing too much, then fine. Melo would be much cheaper in the offseason which would help us afford CP3/Deron. We would lose Chandler, but I would rather have cheaper Melo plus Gallo and Fields and maybe even AR than expensive Melo minus all of them except maybe Chandler.
    Everything points towards us waiting out the season for Melo unless Denver takes a really lowball offer, and even then, moneywise, it hurts us to trade for him.
    Even if we just continue on the path that we are on and everyone improves and we are a top 6 team in the east in 2012 with all this cap space…. doesn’t it make more sense to wait for CP3/Deron or even D12? I can understand not wanting to play for the 2008/9 Knicks but the idea of going to NY to play for a team that’s already a solid 5-7 seed? One of those guys will bite.

  113. stratomatic

    My sense is that the people that want Melo see that he’s an upgrade over Gallo or Chandler at the SF, but they aren’t thinking clearly about the ramifications of getting him.

    If we add Melo, we will probably become a better offensive team, but we will have a gaping hole at the C and no cap space, no prospects at the position (Mosgov will never be a solid starter because he can’t rebouhd), and no assets on the bench to get one.

    I don’t know about the rest of you, but I think the chances of winning a championship with Amare as the C are 0%. He’s not even a great defender as a PF, let alone as a C. This is not a knock against Chandler. He’s a good defender, but he’s undersized at PF. He and Amare are not going to lead that front court to the promised land against the elite big teams or other offenses that can attack the paint.

    To me the #1 priority HAS TO be finding a defensive minded C that can rebound, block shots, and anchor the middle. He doesn’t have to be a great scorer. He just has to be reasonably efficient around the basket and do everything else well. IMO even someone like Dalembert or Varejao would instantly make this team a lot better and allow us to move Chandler to the bench where he can be one of the scorers we need.

    If we trade AR for a 1st round pick and send Curry and 2 out of 3 of Gallo/Chandler/Fields to Denver (or to someone else as part of 3 way deal), I think we are going to undo everything we’ve done right for the last few years. We are going to be in capped out hell with a team not good enough to compete, with very little upside, very few assets to trade, and no way to get a great pick.

    IMHO we need to use Curry (and maybe Chandler) to get that C first and gamble that one of either Gallo, AR, Fields, or Chandler (whoever is left) develops into a solid consistent #2 scoring option and the others also get better. Then we’ll have a very good young team with upside and assets to make trades.

  114. stratomatic

    By the way, I think it’s insanity that D’Antoni spent so much time experimenting with Mosgov (who was horibble every step of the way) but refuses to even give Anthony Randolph as chance to play minutes when we are hurting so badly in the middle, dead tired, and he fills a clear specific need.

    At a minimum you just tell the kid not to worry about scoring from the outside and just focus on defensive rebounding, blocking shots, and trying to get easy put backs on the offensive glass. He was productive for GS doing that at age 19 and he’s 20-30 pounds heavier now.

    He can’t be so bad that he can’t help this team. It’s total bullshit! I refuse to believe that. This is another case of one of D’Antoni’s mental glitches doing the wrong thing because of some idiotic rule or something about AR’s personality he dislikes etc.. (like benching Robinson for so long, never playing Hill even though there were times we could have used him and Houston found minutes for him right away, never giving Milicic a chance etc…). Now I agree there were issues with those guys and Milicic for example wasn’t any good, but with D’Antoni it’s always all or nothing and that’s not an effective way to use assets.

  115. Spree8nyk8

    What center are you talking about? People keep saying get a player to fill X position but not actually naming the player. The other thing is that you are talking about getting a player for a position that we are unlikely to use him in. D’Antoni doesn’t like the way the floor is spaced when Amar’e isn’t the five, so trading away our space for a player that might not fit the system doesn’t seem wise. At least Melo can fit into our system. I’m not sure exactly which Center you guys think we’ll be able to pluck that’s going to actually fit in.

    And don’t get me wrong about Paul and Williams, they are both oustanding players. I just happen to think Felton has proved himself more than capable. We have our point guard and he’s a good one. He’s in the top 5 in assists and he’s scoring well also. Not sure why anyone is even discussing ditching Felton. He’s been outstanding.

    Also keep in mind that suppose Howard comes available for 2012. If we went ahead and got Melo but it wasn’t working out, if Howard were pushing that hard to leave Melo would be a very tradeable asset at that point. I think he’s one of those players we can get and if it doesn’t work out we can move him for probably more than we gave up to get him. The only reason Denver can’t get more for him now is because it’s uncertain if he’s sign. If Melo were locked up Denver could get a ton for him.

  116. latke

    Stratomatic: D’Antoni should probably have won the championship with Boris Diaw as the center. He’s smaller than amare. If Horry doesn’t hip check nash, the suns probably win that series. D’Antoni doesn’t play defensive players unless they can shoot. Even when the suns had Kurt Thomas, who can hit a 20 footer, they didn’t start him. Do you really want to invest a lot of money and/or trade pieces in a player who probably is coming off the bench?

    Z: Additionally, he didn’t cripple their ability to make maneuvers. They added a 3rd max contract the next year (Vince Carter), and were able to unload Lewis and Carter the next year for two players for a package of players who will make them a better team.

    It’s a path of diminishing returns though. You can see that the contracts they have are getting worse and worse. Turkoglu and Arenas have two of the crappiest contracts in the nba, because both have played a lot worse than the $s theyre paid. I agree in general with the idea that the Magic did have to sign Lewis back in the day; nobody knew that he was on ‘roids and would lose all ability once he cut them out. They paid him a lot, but the team was a contender pretty much until this year. I just don’t know if they should be acting quite as desperately as they are.

    These moves look like a Knicks move pre-walsh: trade for flawed players in the hopes that they make you relevant. This trade IMO makes it far more likely that D Howard looks at his team at the end of 2012 and decides he doesn’t want to waste his prime there.

  117. Shad0wF0x

    If the Knicks end up doing nothing with Eddy Curry, we might as well trade him for Marcus Camby. He’s a center that wouldn’t really clog up the lane and can hit slightly beyond a FT length jumper. His contract also ends by the end of next year, leaving us cap room for Williams, Paul and Howard.

    stratomatic: By the way, I think it’s insanity that D’Antoni spent so much time experimenting with Mosgov (who was horibble every step of the way) but refuses to even give Anthony Randolph as chance to play minutes when we are hurting so badly in the middle, dead tired, and he fills a clear specific need.

    At a minimum you just tell the kid not to worry about scoring from the outside and just focus on defensive rebounding, blocking shots, and trying to get easy put backs on the offensive glass. He was productive for GS doing that at age 19 and he’s 20-30 pounds heavier now.

    I really want D’Antoni to give him another chance. He just needs to get strict orders on exactly what you just said strat. Even with all the mistakes he made on court so far, I’m still higher on him than I am on Mosgov. A center who can’t rebound that well? Pointless.

  118. massive

    I think the perfect center for this system is Nene. He can rebound, defend, pass, score out of the post, and hit the 18 footer so he won’t compromise our spacing. Plus his Win Shares per 48 is at .209 this season, and his TS% is at .687. He’s a free agent this offseason, right?

  119. jon abbey

    I would also love to see Randolph get another chance. he and Gallo were the Knicks I was most excited about coming into the season (I knew Amare would be great), and I was out of the country for most of his brief audition in early November. get him in there, Mike D!

  120. stratomatic

    If you guys are so convinced that D’Antoni won’t play a legitimate C at the 5 and Amare at the 4 the way he said he would before Amare came, then IMO there’s a 0% chance we get past Boston, LA, or any other really long team like that. We also won’t get past any team with some really good offensive players that can attack the paint (Miami).

    The D’Antoni Suns “might” have won a championship but they didn’t and they never faced a super long and talented team like Boston or LA. Have you been watching the Knicks? Even when they play well, some of most medicore offensive teams in the league are scoring at will in the middle and have big men that are putting up career games against them. I have no prejudice against SSOL. I am simply stating that Amare is not a good defender at the 4, let alone the 5 . If he’s your 5 you better have a long defensive minded 4 to protect the paint or it’s hopeless.

    It’s tough to find a legit C. But we do have 11.5m and some assets (like Chandler) to try to get one. The Suns just managed to get Gortat. So sometimes things that don’t look very doable become doable when circumstances change. To me, adding Melo at a cost of Curry and 2 or 3 of our young players is suicidal.

  121. Nick C.

    jon abbey: I would also love to see Randolph get another chance. he and Gallo were the Knicks I was most excited about coming into the season (I knew Amare would be great), and I was out of the country for most of his brief audition in early November. get him in there, Mike D!  (Quote)

    On first galnce that comment scared the crap oiut iof me. I thought you were referring to Zach. lol. IIRC you are out in SF area so you have any info about Anthony Randiolph. Was he this clueless looking on O out there? what position was he used at? Was he misused by Don Nelson? etc.

  122. stratomatic

    jon,

    Here’s a summary of the Randolph audition you missed (the way I saw it).

    D’Antoni gave him the green light in pre season to shoot anything and he did. lol So the initial impression was unfavorable. In the regular season it appeared he was so insecure abut getting yanked if he made a mistake it was impacting his play. He wasn’t relaxed at all. He took a few very poor shots, looked a little lost at times, and turned the ball over on a couple plays that made you really shake your head, but he was no worse than Mosgov.

    IMO he wasn’t used properly. A lot of the time on offense he was camped out beyond the arc doing nothing (like Gallo). So defenses were sagging off him. That’s why he was taking more outside shots than he should have. There was almost no effort to get him to crash the offensive boards, score on the break, run the break, or even run backdoors like they run with Chandler once in awhile where he could use his athleticism to dunk over people.

    If your coach’s definition of a good player is limited to “must be able to knock down a 3 and must be given the green light to shoot at all times” then we are probably in trouble with Randolph as anything other than a C. But that’s where I want him anyway. Sure he’s not strong enough for some of the bigger stronger guys yet, but neither is anyone else we are playing. I can’t believe we can’t find minutes on most nights.

  123. d-mar

    Nick C.:
    On first galnce that comment scared the crap oiut iof me.I thought you were referring to Zach. lol.IIRC you are out in SF area so you have any info about Anthony Randiolph.Was he this clueless looking on O out there? what position was he used at?Was he misused by Don Nelson? etc.  

    The conundrum with AR is that he probably needs to be on the court for extended minutes to feel more comfortable in the offense and not act so nervous and indecisive, but when he’s out there acting clueless and taking bad shots, it’s hard for D’Antoni to leave him in at the expense of winning. Ideally, you’d put him in against a bad team that we’ve built a comfortable lead against, but that’s not happening any time soon unfortunately.

  124. jon abbey

    Nick, I’m a lifelong NY/NJ boy, I’ve never even been to SF.

    I somehow never saw Randolph much on League Pass, but the reports I’ve read made him seem like Darius Miles before his injuries, one of my favorite NBA players ever.

  125. Z

    latke:
    These moves look like a Knicks move pre-walsh: trade for flawed players in the hopes that they make you relevant.This trade IMO makes it far more likely that D Howard looks at his team at the end of 2012 and decides he doesn’t want to waste his prime there.   

    But the Magic were already relevant. They had a top 5 player in his prime. It’s not at all similar to the pre-Walsh Knicks, who were desperate to be relevant and brought in other team’s high priced garbage to try to become relevant. The current Knicks are like the ’08 Magic who have one star surrounded by a bunch of useful pieces but lack a second star to “get over the hump”. And the Magic are, 3 years later, still serious contenders in the East.

    Rashard Lewis didn’t produce the way they were hoping he would when they paid him, but he did help them get to the finals, and now he’s gone and they still are easily a top 3 team in the conference. (And Rashard Lewis was never on Carmelo Anthony’s “perceived value” level either, and there’s no reason to assume Anthony’s perceived value will plummet playing for D’Antoni).

  126. Z

    stratomatic: If we trade AR for a 1st round pick and send Curry and 2 out of 3 of Gallo/Chandler/Fields to Denver (or to someone else as part of 3 way deal), I think we are going to undo everything we’ve done right for the last few years. We are going to be in capped out hell with a team not good enough to compete, with very little upside, very few assets to trade, and no way to get a great pick.   

    I think people use the phrase “capped out hell” a bit too liberally here. “Capped out hell” is being $64 million over the cap with no expiring contracts (that was your 2006-2007 New York Knicks). Other than letting it bleed for three years, the only moves management could make was to turn bad short term contracts into bad long term contracts.

    That would not at all be the case if the Knicks added Carmelo Anthony either before the deadline or over the summer. The Knicks would still be healthily middle-of-the-league in salary, and would have $13-$17 million in expiring contracts in 2012 to use as trade assets even if they are over the cap.

    I know we are all still licking the fresh wounds inflicted by the Layden/Isiah years, but I think we should try to recognize that Walsh’s two “tank” years have really put us in a healthy position going forward. We can go back to spending $$ on players without fear of becoming the 2000-2009 Knicks again.

  127. Garson

    Just read on twitter that Magic offered Duhon for Turiaf…

    If Duhon didnt fall off the face of the earth last year, this actually might look decent in my eyes. at the end of the day, he is a perfect p&r point and would prob be decent in a backup roll. But it would just be very weird seeing him back here PLUS he eats into 2012 cap space. so i say…. NO THANK YOU.

  128. massive

    More Duhon for the next 4 years? No thanks. I’d much rather have a D-Leaguer for the rest of the season.

  129. Doug

    Garson: Just read on twitter that Magic offered Duhon for Turiaf… If Duhon didnt fall off the face of the earth last year, this actually might look decent in my eyes. at the end of the day, he is a perfect p&r point and would prob be decent in a backup roll. But it would just be very weird seeing him back here PLUS he eats into 2012 cap space. so i say…. NO THANK YOU.  

    My immediate reaction to that was “ew, gross.”

  130. latke

    jon abbey: the reports I’ve read made him seem like Darius Miles before his injuries, one of my favorite NBA players ever.  

    I like this comparison. The main difference i see is that Randolph really lacks the body control (and perhaps the mentality) to drive into traffic and finish. He has shown the occasional moment of impressive agility on the break with one man to beat, but when he puts the ball on the floor with a defender set in the paint, he quickly goes into full on panic mode, taking some out of control fadeaway or turning the ball over. In terms of body type and defensive talent though the two are pretty similar.

    The thing with Randolph is that when you have guys who are offensive zeroes in the halfcourt, you really need offensive dynamos to compensate. For example, the 2001 76ers started a bunch of offensive zeroes in Mutombo/Ratliff, Eric Snow, George Lynch, and Tyrone Hill. These are guys who at best could hit open jumpers (lynch, hill sort of), but whose only nba level skill was on the defensive end. The reason it worked was that even without any other weapons, Iverson could always get off a decent shot. His usage rate was 36% that season.

    The knicks have no creators. Amare has proven time and again that he is most effective as a finisher, leaving felton and chandler as our best offensive creators, neither of whom are great at scoring for themselves, and as a result, Randolph’s offensive shortcomings are exposed. Until we get an offensive creator, we will live and die by SSOL and the roster limitations it imposes.

  131. cgreene

    latke:
    I like this comparison. The main difference i see is that Randolph really lacks the body control (and perhaps the mentality) to drive into traffic and finish. He has shown the occasional moment of impressive agility on the break with one man to beat, but when he puts the ball on the floor with a defender set in the paint, he quickly goes into full on panic mode, taking some out of control fadeaway or turning the ball over.In terms of body type and defensive talent though the two are pretty similar.The thing with Randolph is that when you have guys who are offensive zeroes in the halfcourt, you really need offensive dynamos to compensate.For example, the 2001 76ers started a bunch of offensive zeroes in Mutombo/Ratliff, Eric Snow, George Lynch, and Tyrone Hill.These are guys who at best could hit open jumpers (lynch, hill sort of), but whose only nba level skill was on the defensive end.The reason it worked was that even without any other weapons, Iverson could always get off a decent shot. His usage rate was 36% that season.
    The knicks have no creators. Amare has proven time and again that he is most effective as a finisher, leaving felton and chandler as our best offensive creators, neither of whom are great at scoring for themselves, and as a result, Randolph’s offensive shortcomings are exposed. Until we get an offensive creator, we will live and die by SSOL and the roster limitations it imposes.  

    your point about not having any creators is a good one. i agree. obvious pro melo argument there as well. but if we can’t get him how about going after jamal crawford and a big. he can run the pick and roll also. i know i know his efficiency isn’t good and he’s a bit of a ball stopper. but the guy can score, create, run the point and is a good locker room guy that has a TS% of over 57 last year and is close to 56 this year. go ahead,…

  132. jon abbey

    on a more macro note, Brandon Jennings broke his foot and is out for 4-6 weeks, so that has to help our playoff chances a bit.

  133. massive

    The Knicks are about as good as Denver, Atlanta, Chicago, New Orleans, and Portland. I like our chances in a 7 game series with all of these teams. I even like our chances against Oklahoma City and Utah (teams that are clearly better than us). This is without Melo. But, with Melo, I still don’t like our chances in a 7 game series against Boston, Miami, Orlando, San Antonio, Dallas, and Los Angeles.

    Basically, I don’t think Melo makes us elite as much as he would make us pretenders (Atlanta these past two years), and would only like Melo here if we can absolutely steal him from Denver (like Randolph, Buike, Walker, Curry) so that we don’t compromise our assets for somebody who we don’t need and could’ve gotten for free this off-season. Other than that, I would avoid trading any rotation players for him, and would look to make a Pau Gasol type of deal.

  134. Ben R

    When I look at SSOL the big requirement that I see, besides the obvious outside shot, is discipline. Since the offense is open and players are encouraged to take open shots rather than simply run set plays it is up to the players to make good decisions with the ball. With freedom comes responsibility. I actually think that is the biggest reason D’Antoni often doesn’t play rookies. It also explains why he benched Nate for so long, because while Nate was skilled and often productive many of his points came 1 on 1 outside the offense. Any coach will tell you that points scored by going outside the system your team is running is fools gold and will kill you when you face good defenses.

    Randolph stuggles to play within a system. He tries to make too many plays and stops ball movement. The damage he does to our offensive flow is much more harmful than a mozgov turnover or a Mason jr miss. I think this is why he does not play. My hope is he is starting to come around in practice and once he does I am sure he will play.

    I think playing outside the system is also what Douglas stuggles with, though right now we have no alternative, and what Amare stuggles with when he plays badly. Players need to commit to playing within the offense, which means no 1 on 1, no over dribbling and lots of ball movement.

  135. latke

    Anyone think Carl Landry is worth a shot? He’s playing only 27MPG (more like 22mpg in the last couple weeks) because Sac is trying to develop cousins and to a lesser extent Thompson. Landry thrived on a Mingless rockets team that was 6th in pace (WS/48 of .184 last season pre-trade). Sac is thin at the 2 (evans seems more of a 3), so maybe if Azuibuike comes back we could do a one for one swap. Landry can hit the 17 footer, so he could work in SSOL, and he addresses several of our weaknesses in that he can rebound, can play with his back to the basket, and is big enough (6’9″, 250 lbs) to take some of the pressure off of Amare in the middle.

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