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Monday, September 1, 2014

2010 Report Card: Toney Douglas

Douglas’ initial season with the Knicks was filled with ups and downs. His NBA career started on a sour note, as some New Yorkers were upset that in a point guard rich draft, the team failed to fill its void with either Brandon Jennings or Ty Lawson. Following the draft, Douglas had a poor showing in summer league, shooting a feeble 28.8% eFG%. However at the start of the season, he played well enough to make the rotation. In mid-November on the heels of a 21 point outburst off the bench, D’Antoni made him the starting shooting guard. The Knick rookie played well enough, dropping 23 in a loss against the Hawks.

And that’s when things took another downturn for Douglas. The next night he would come off the bench, and following that his minutes would begin to fluctuate. He started on November 18th, but only managed 12 minutes of court time. By then Larry Hughes was on a shooting streak, and D’Antoni would stick with his hot hand playing the veteran over the rookie. Even when Hughes crawled into the coach’s doghouse in mid-December, Douglas would find court time sporadically. It wouldn’t be until early March that D’Antoni would awaken Douglas from his winter hibernation and allow him to see regular action again. From March 12th until the end of the regular season, he played 25+ minutes in every game save for two.

Douglas-Minutes-Per-Month

Perhaps what surprised me most about Douglas’ 2010 season was his efficient scoring (57.1% TS%); prior to the start of the season I envisioned him having a TS% under 50%. However I remain curious if he can keep this efficiency so high. Douglas didn’t earn a lot of trips to the free throw line and shooting percentage is volatile season to season. To his credit an overwhelming majority of his shots (73.4% according to HoopData) come either from downtown or point blank. Perhaps his scoring competency relies more on his ability to take intelligent shots.

Although his shooting might be suspect going into next year, his vigorous defense isn’t likely to wane. Douglas remains vivacious on defense, continually moving his feet. He’s a threat in the passing lanes and plays good ball denial as well. Another area where his physical ability and his intelligence make him an asset to the team.

Report Card (5 point scale):
Offense: 3
Defense: 4
Teamwork: 4
Rootability: 5
Performance/Expectations: 5

Final Grade: A-

Similarity Scores:

z-Sum FLName Year Tm PER TS eFG PTS ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV
.000 Toney Douglas 2010 NYK 14.9 57.1 54.5 15.9 1.3 3.6 3.7 1.4 0.1 1.8
.037 Leandro Barbosa 2006 PHO 15.1 58.9 55.8 16.8 0.7 3.4 3.6 1.1 0.1 2.0
.039 Kevin Gamble 1989 BOS 15.8 58.4 55.9 18.0 1.1 4.0 3.3 1.3 0.3 1.8
.047 George Hill 2010 SAS 14.7 57.2 52.9 15.2 0.7 3.2 3.6 1.1 0.4 1.6
.055 Mike Glenn 1979 NYK 15.5 56.7 54.1 17.9 0.9 2.5 4.2 1.1 0.2 2.0
.064 Reggie Miller 1989 IND 15.7 60.2 53.8 16.8 1.0 4.1 3.2 1.3 0.4 2.0
.066 Rudy Fernandez 2009 POR 15.5 58.8 55.2 14.7 0.8 3.7 2.9 1.2 0.2 1.6
.078 Kyle Macy 1981 PHO 14.5 56.7 52.3 16.2 1.1 3.2 3.9 1.9 0.1 2.3
.084 Jim Paxson 1981 POR 16.9 56.4 53.7 18.0 1.0 2.8 4.0 1.9 0.1 1.7
.088 Chris Mullin 1987 GSW 15.8 58.0 52.4 18.8 0.6 2.7 4.0 1.5 0.5 2.3
.091 Hubert Davis 1994 NYK 14.0 55.8 52.4 16.6 0.6 1.8 4.5 1.1 0.1 2.1

It’s good that great players like Reggie Miller and Chris Mullin appear on this list, but Douglas sees himself as a point guard not scoring guard. It’s no secret that D’Antoni has a disdain of playing combo guards at the point. Douglas would be wise to work on his passing skills this offseason.

The silverlining on his comparables is the guy at the top of the list: Leandro Barbosa. The Brazillian Blur thrived under D’Antoni in Phoenix, so perhaps Douglas is playing for the right coach. Barbosa did increase the number of free throw attempts and points per minute as he progressed, so that is another barometer on Douglas’ development.

Between Barbosa and Gamble, it appears that Douglas ceiling in the NBA is as a reserve guard. Perhaps his defense, coupled with a strong playmaker at another position (ahem LeBron) could make him starting material.

92 comments on “2010 Report Card: Toney Douglas

  1. stratomatic

    Good analysis.

    I also think the development of his passing skills is going to be the key as to whether he has a significant role in NY going forward or is more of a part time reserve. He’s undersized to play the 2. If he can’t pass really well and run the P&R, he’s also going to have a tough time cracking the starting line up or getting serious minutes as a PG from D’Antoni.

  2. David Crockett

    The guy I expected to be on this list of comparables, but who is not, is Jason Terry.

    I saw Douglas as a junior JET of sorts, though Barbosa is clearly a better comparison player. Douglas seems perfectly suited (and priced) to play the role of first-guard-off-the-bench.

    On a slightly unrelated note, I am getting more and more worried that Joe Johnson is coming to New York Lebron or no Lebron. I know this is wrong, yet my mind is already beginning to work on the post-hoc rationalization.

    I think I need therapy.

  3. Count Zero

    I have a completely unfounded love for this kid. I know he projects as a reserve, but somehow I keep thinking he can be more. Definitely a rootability 5. He should spend his entire summer practicing the P&R.

    As to Joe Johnson…all I can say at this point is I am trying to ignore all the transactional thinking. There’s a part of me that believes we are going to really screw this up, and another part of me that wants to have faith in Walsh. Reading the rumors just keeps me alternating between unfounded hope and inconsolable despair. I really don’t see LBJ or Wade in blue and orange, but this team can still turn into a serious playoff contender if we don’t panic and make the wrong moves. I’m doing my best not to think about any of it until July.

  4. TheRant

    There is something very likable about DWTDD. I’m hoping he matures into a servicable point guard. I think he can. And I keep reminding myself he costs an eighth of what Duhon charges.

    On an unrelated note, can I please oh please never again have to hear Mark Jackson say “Hand Down Man Down.” I’d settle for that, even if LeBron never comes to play.

  5. Ted Nelson

    Good analysis. Douglas is one of the most exciting developments of last season, and really in years.

    D’Antoni’s inability/unwillingness to use Douglas more and earlier is one of the bigger frustrations of the season for me. I realize he was a rookie, but this was a rebuilding team. D’Antoni’s initial rotation flopped horribly, and he was so-so at adapting. The apparent belief that “veteran know-how” (not that it’s even clear many Knicks had that) and “playing the right way” trump talent and production is troubling.

    “his shooting might be suspect going into next year,”

    I find that to be an overstatement. His scoring efficiency may or may not be as high, but clearly the guy can shoot. Anything can happen (see Frye, Channing), but I have no reason to expect his TS% to fall off a cliff even if 57% proves to be unsustainable. B-R isn’t working, but I bet there are jump shooters with good TS% despite not drawing a lot of fouls. And as you say, Douglas is not one-dimensional and can score inside or out.

    @1

    His #1 comparable is Barbosa, who had a nice solid rotation spot for D’Antoni. Barbosa was playing 30 mpg for D’Antoni. Barbosa is longer, but not exactly known for his defensive intensity.

    @1 & 3

    Who cares if you start or come off the bench? What matters is how many minutes you play.

    @3

    That’s probably the best approach. Besides his long track record and reputation, one Walsh quote gives me a lot of hope that he’s not going to screw the pooch if LeBron/Wade skip NYC. He said that the cap space is valuable whether they use it this offseason or next. Just cause he said it doesn’t mean he’ll do it, but at least he said it. He could have just said “2010 or bust.”

  6. stratomatic

    @5

    “D’Antoni’s inability/unwillingness to use Douglas more and earlier is one of the bigger frustrations of the season for me”

    I think your frustration with the way Douglas was handled last year speaks to the point I have been trying to make.

    I am sure there were several contributing factors, but one of the reasons Douglas didn’t get a lot of playing time was because D’Antoni felt he couldn’t run “the offense” at PG and the team didn’t have anyone else he felt could run it while Douglas was on the court. So Duhon got the benefit of the doubt for a long time. When that failed they tried slowing it down a little. Then they tried running it through Lee some of the time.

    Duhon was so bad for much of the season that perhaps a change should have been made sooner. That’s fine. I’m not disagreeing. I’m just saying get used to it. IMO he’s going to be flexible within the system, but he’s not going to overhaul it to match the players. Instead, he and Walsh are going to try to build within it via their FA choices, draft picks, and trades.

  7. Brian Cronin

    Very nice write-up!

    I like Douglas, and I have a unsupportable desire to see him start at the 1 next season.

  8. KNCIKS2010

    @7
    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
    Nobody get me wrong, I love Douglas, but off the bench. As count zero said, Douglas can work all summer on pick and rolls and the stuff D’antoni needs for his offense. The beauty of Mike’s offense however, is that it should come naturally. Guys like Nash, Paul, even Duhon if he could run a thousand times faster and actually look for his shot, are fit for the type of free-flowing offense. I see Douglas more in a half court set, on a team like the Spurs. I’d love for him to stay in New York, but coming off the bench. Toney Douglas is not the starting point guard on a championship team, I assure you.

  9. Ted Nelson

    “Douglas didn’t get a lot of playing time was because D’Antoni felt he couldn’t run “the offense” at PG and the team didn’t have anyone else he felt could run it while Douglas was on the court.”

    That’s not unique to D’Antoni, though. Not too many coaches willingly feature combo-guards at the point. A few might actively seek them out, but mostly they play them as their primary PG when they are so good they have to play them (in part because no one on the roster is better, maybe). (Or also if they have a great playmaker on the wing.) Douglas was too productive not to play and the Knicks had no one better besides maybe Nate who also didn’t play, and D’Antoni didn’t adapt. I can’t say with 100% certainty D’Antoni was wrong, but given how crappy Duhon played and how crappy the Knicks played I assume he was. He was running the offense through Lee for a lot of the season, so I don’t think Duhon was getting the job done. This is a case where I have a disagreement with D’Antoni. You can say the same thing about most coaches of 29 win teams.

    Douglas would have also been as good an option at the SG as pretty much any Knick. Once Chandler stepped up his play and changed his game around, I can understand playing him ahead of Douglas. Otherwise Douglas could have seen more minutes there as well. The Knicks were the 27th defense in the NBA, so his lack of height at the 2 couldn’t possibly have hurt them that much.

    “Instead, he and Walsh are going to try to build within it via their FA choices, draft picks, and trades.”

    They did draft Douglas!!!!!! They also drafted Hill and he didn’t play either. So 2 of the 3 guys they’ve drafted didn’t play.
    Duhon was a terrible fit as a running PG and they signed him.
    I agree that they’re going to look for athletic guys who can shoot and play basketball, but I don’t think that’s so different from what every other team in the NBA is looking for. The difference is at the margins. They’re not going to play 2 big guys, for example. At times I agree with D’Antoni and at times I don’t. I take it on a case by case basis and I’m not going to just get used to it. If I wanted to get used to it I would just read conventional journalists instead of coming to a forum where I can actually voice my opinion and get intelligent feedback.

    You make D’Antoni out to be very rigid. Either he’s not as rigid as you think or he’s going to have a hard time succeeding as an NBA head coach without a lot of luck. So far little luck in Denver and NY and no wins… lots of luck in Phoenix and lots of wins. Maybe you are right about how rigid he is. Maybe he gets away with it because the Knicks land LeBron/Wade. I tend to think he’s not so rigid or so different from other NBA head coaches, though.

    “I’m just saying get used to it. IMO he’s going to be flexible within the system, but he’s not going to overhaul it to match the players.”

    There’s a thin line between the two.

  10. Ted Nelson

    @8

    Disagree.

    “The beauty of Mike’s offense however, is that it should come naturally. Guys like Nash, Paul, even Duhon if he could run a thousand times faster and actually look for his shot, are fit for the type of free-flowing offense.”

    First, you think Paul and Nash just woke up one day and were HOF PGs? I can assure you that they busted their asses and that it did not come naturally. Beyond the work they put in long before playing in the NBA… Nash struggled his first few years, and even spent time at SG. Paul’s outside shot has improved a good deal since he came into the league. Paul and Nash are both well known for their tireless work ethics. Toney Douglas was only a rookie, and the most natural thing is that he still has a lot of work to do. If he works as hard as Nash and Paul are known to… he could be pretty good (though probably not nearly as good as them).

    Duhon was a terrible fit for this system… He can’t run 1000x faster. Can’t run the break period. Can’t finish period. Not a good playmaker, but turns it over a ton. Duhon is as much a half-court player as any PG around these days. When his outside shot was falling he could make it work, but he wasn’t a natural fit.

    Douglas himself was as good on the break as any Knick. He’s fast, he creates fast breaks with steals, he finishes, he shoots… He seemed natural enough in a fast paced offense to me. It’s actually the half court where his PG skills are lacking…

    “I’d love for him to stay in New York, but coming off the bench.”

    Who cares if you start the game or not?

    “Toney Douglas is not the starting point guard on a championship team, I assure you.”

    I actually feel like Douglas would be a great complement to LeBron. You can get technical and say that Douglas would be the SG on offense and PG on defense only… but whatever. He could start next to LeBron if he’s as good as or better than his rookie season showed. Mo Williams is nothing but a jump shooter who doesn’t take the ball to the hoop well and is an average defender at best. Douglas looks like every bit as good a jump shooter as Mo, but is far better at taking it to/finishing at the basket and defense. Mo is a better playmaker at this point, but the difference is not that great and they are both below-averagish. If Douglas can improve his playmaking skills… he’s a better fit that Mo Williams who has won 60+ games in his two seasons with LeBron. If you throw in the 2nd star Cleveland lacked, it’s not 100% but they definitely could win a title (or several).

  11. KNCIKS2010

    @11
    “First, you think Paul and Nash just woke up one day and were HOF PGs?”
    I never said that, I said a free-flowing type of offense would come naturally and in Nash’s case, came naturally. Not once did I say Nash and Paul woke up and were the players that they were, I know as does every other NBA follower that Nash and Paul are the hardest workers in the NBA. But you can only teach so much; great passing vision and an intellect for the game as far as passing come naturally. Duhon can run the break, and was Lee’s best fit career wise on the pick and roll. I said if he could run faster, Duhon might have been a stronger fit, but since he was so slow he couldn’t runs Mike’s offense. I’m not advocating for Chris Duhon, but you can’t say he’s a horrible playmaker. The only reason he has a job in the nba are his although small playmaking skills.
    “He seemed natural enough in a fast paced offense to me”
    Not true. Actually you summed it up pretty well. He steals, he finishes, he shoots. Sure he’s fast. But running the break he looks awkward as hell if you take away his scoring option. Recognizing a passing option just on the break could take some time for Toney to learn. I think he’ll be a good player, but not in a fast paced offense. Duhon would not be better suited for a half set offense. If anything, Mike’s 7SOL protects Duhon and how unathletic he is. Look at the pg’s that run set offense teams that were in the playoffs. Brandon Jennings, Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson, Rajon Rondo (set-offense to an extent)…and that’s only pertaining to the East. All those guys are freakishly athletic.
    “Who cares if you start the game or not?”
    I’m not even going to elaborate on this, just ask the majority of the players in the NBA.
    “Douglas looks like every bit as good a jump shooter as Mo”
    No, this thread’s topic talks about how incosistent Douglas’ jump shot actually is.
    “If Douglas can improve his playmaking skills… he’s a better fit that Mo Williams”
    I agree, but you just summed up the 80% that’s of what Douglas should be. That’s almost saying, besides the defensive and shooting skills he already has, “If Toney can become a point guard or not…he’s a better fit then Mo Williams.”

  12. massive

    So it appears that the Knicks want Tony Parker. According to ESPN, the Spurs want a big who will help lengthen Tim Duncan’s career, and that both Parker and Hill are not on the market, but neither are untouchable. Real GM brings up a S&T for Lee, but this, of course, cuts into our space. I’d be happy with this move if Toronto took Eddy Curry’s expiring deal for Bosh in a S&T, and this move makes more sense than trying to get Lee to agree to go to Toronto. Lee said he wants to win, and San Antonio wins…a lot. Toronto? Not so much. Thoughts on this?

  13. massive

    @12,

    Since when were Mo Williams, Rajon Rondo, Brandon Jennings, and Jameer Nelson freak athletes? They’re all fast guys, but saying they are freak athletes is an overstatement. When I hear freak athlete, I think Josh Smith, Amar’e Stoudemire, Andre Igoudala, John Wall, LeBron James, etc. I wouldn’t call Mo, Rondo, Jennings, and Nelson in the same league as these guys athletically.

    Also, saying that 7SOL protected Duhon is another overstatement, maybe a fallacy. He is regarded as the worst starting PG in the league, so Mike D’s system exposed all of his weaknesses. He was ineffective on the pick and roll because he can’t shoot, was too slow to efficiently run the break, wouldn’t/couldn’t finish, and was turnover prone. D’Antoni’s system relies on good PG play, or a good play-maker for that matter. Duhon did terribly in this role, so saying that Mike D’s system did him some justice just doesn’t add up.

  14. Ted Nelson

    @12

    You can also develop passing skills. Few rookies (at least out of those who go on to NBA success) come in to the league as the best playmakers they will be. It is very unlikely that Douglas become a Kidd/Nash/Magic/Paul level playmaker (which is the case with most rookies) but he can develop into a good one… Better than 5uhon at least.
    I think it was Bill Bradley who said he used to walk down the street and try to see everything on the edge of his vision to work on court vision. J-Will wasn’t born with that handle and passing… He used to dribble around the court and pass to the wall for hours without ever taking a shot.

    Duhon is a below average playmaker for a PG. That’s not my opinion it’s based on stats… Check out basketball-reference.com for a while and then tell me Duhon is a good playmaker. Subjectively (my opinion) he is horrible running the break. The ‘nicks had to slow down the pace in part because Duhon couldn’t get them out and running.
    He’s the best p+r partnr of Lee’s career? The Knicks never called a play for Lee before D’Antoni got here… He’s the only p+r partner of Lee’s pro career…

    Duhon is iin the NBA because he’s got good skills, is b-ball smart, is a fair athlete, and is a solid overall player. His outside shot was usually his best skill, but somehow stunk this season.

    Duhon is better on the break because he is unathletic? The Knicks ran a 7SOL offense last season? Month Williams is athletic? Rondo isn’t one of the most dangerous players in the open court in the entire league? Jennings was good last season? All news to me…

    “He steals, he finishes, he shoots” Sounds pretty good to me… Which of those three things did Duhon do this season? I count none. Last season was Douglas’ first at PG… Have some patience.

    Ask Manu if the second best SG in the NBA for the better part of a decade can come off the bench. It’s an ego thing. It’s inconsequential in the end.

    No, Mike says that jump shooting in general is not consistent year to year. Douglas shot the lights out this season. That’s not my opinion. Check out 82games.com for a break down of players’ eFG on jumpers v. inside shots.

    No, because LeBron is his team’s primary distributor he doesn’t need a pass first PG. That’s why the Cavs brought in Month Williams who is primarily a jump shooting combo gaurd.

  15. ess-dog

    It’s interesting – Douglas’ shooting stats were pretty identical to Gallo’s across the board. efg: 52, 54.5. FT: 82, 81. 3pt%: 38, 39. TS: 57.5, 57. PER: 14.9 each. Gallo get’s lauded while DWTDD gets mixed skepticism.
    I know, I know, TD’s almost 3 years older than Gallo, and thus, a lower ceiling. But I do think point guards tend to mature later than other players.
    In fact, who’s to say TD won’t give you what Parker (or George Hill for that matter) does next year? Or at least relatively close, and at a much better cost. I know, Parker would help attract other free agents where Toney doesn’t…
    On the other hand, Parker could be a good get since good point guards are at a premium and we’d be “buying low” so to speak. I’ve never liked Parker and his wife seems annoying, but he’s good. Is he worth paying him, having him take a max slot AND giving up Lee in the process? Not likely. Although he could really work well with Amare or Boozer. Parker/Wil or Walker/Gallo/Amare/center X is probably a 3, 4 or 5 seed. Probably better to re-sign Lee at a fair deal and get a real center.
    Of course, I assume these are all “if Lebron and co. go elsewhere” moves.
    And while we’re talking pg’s, I would consider something like Curry/Chandler for Baron Davis and a pick. He played a bit better last year….

  16. Ted Nelson

    I would put Rondo squarely in the athletic freak category. Total freak. He can’t do the same things as some of those guys because of height, but he’s a freak. One of the fastest guys out there, amazing defender, does just about everything.
    Jennings is very athletic, though I don’t know if I’d say freak. Very good athlete with good basketball skills, though. Nelson fell in the draft because he’s not a great athlete. Mo Williams is well below average by NBA PG standards: the guy does nothing off the dribble, can’t finish isn’t a distributor… He takes something like 80 perc jumpers.

    The larger point to me is that generally people say athleticism is more important on the break (unless it’s a total break-away) and skill is more important in the half-court.

    Yeah, Duhon was pretty terrible.

  17. Ted Nelson

    Ess-dog,

    Good point. I think Douglas’ shooting is the real deal, too. He was also a good shooter in college. Maybe in a few years he losses a step and can’t finish as well, but that should be a little ways down the road…

    I think Douglas SHOULD be as good as or better than Hill next season. Parker is bit of a different player, though, more of a playmaking PG. Knicks could use that. Hill and Douglas are fairly similar, depending what Douglas shows us going forward.

    I tend to think of Parker as a back-up plan in case LBJ and DW don’t come. In that case giving up assets is probably worth Parker on an expiring instead of Joey Johnson or Rudy Gay on a 5 year max. Maybe get Melo in 2011. Parker, Melo, Lee, Danilo may never win a ring… But that’s a good core for a 50 win team.

  18. BigBlueAL

    Ted, did I read you commenting on the thread talking about the Yankees draft pick tonight at RAB???? Ive been commenting at that site since before I found this site but since I could care less about the MLB draft because its useless to speculate about the players chosen since its nowhere near like the NBA draft I just read but didnt bother to comment on anything tonight. Never noticed you there before (maybe you have or this isnt you Im talking about but first time I read a person named Ted Nelson commenting there) but it is to me the best Yankees fan blog to visit because of the huge amount of fairly sane fans who comment like crazy much like this is the best Knicks site to visit. Also they link alot to and do alot of stuff with other great Yankee blogs too.

    Anyway back to the NBA, looks like Gilbert is running the Cavs possibly into the ground. He might be making Dolan look like a genius pretty soon.

  19. SeeWhyDee77

    All I hafta say about Douglas is, I’m glad to have a defensive player in the backcourt. His offense isn’t too bad either. He kinda reminds me of Dumars a little. Maybe not yet as good offensively..but thei games are very similar.

  20. SeeWhyDee77

    All I hafta say about Douglas is, I’m glad to have a defensive player in the backcourt. His offense isn’t too bad either. He kinda reminds me of Dumars a little. Maybe not yet as good offensively..but their games are very similar.

  21. SeeWhyDee77

    sorry for tha double post..I hit submit twice..SeeWhyDee needs an adrenalin shot today lol

  22. Brian Cronin

    Parker probably “has” to be a back-up plan because San Antonio would only deal him if it meant clearing cap room this season, so no trades involving Curry (unless they involve Richard Jefferson coming to the Knicks).

    And yeah, if Parker is the guy taking up your cap room this year, that’s not terrible or anything like that, but nor is it ideal.

  23. DS

    As far as T. Douglas’s ceiling (Dumars?! Gamble), keep in mind that he’s 24, only a month younger than Rondo, and like 2.5 years older than Derrick Rose! I believe someone here pointed this out during the season.

    However, I think he seems to have a good work ethic and can continue to improve. It prob. helps that he has an older brother in the NFL, where contracts are not guaranteed and so you have to stay extremely disciplined.

    P.S. A good, quantifiable summary of how much Isiah sucked: http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=5261731

  24. Jafa

    If we don’t get LBJ or Wade, I’d take Parker in a heartbeat. I don’t care how much his salary is. He is the best use of our cap space outside of signing LBJ or Wade (and may also help attract one of the top big men to NY).

    How many rings does this guy have already? I think 3? He would definitely bring a different mindset to the locker room and give some of our young guys a lot of confidence to compete with the big boys (after all, his Spurs spent time beating up the tough Western Conference teams, including the Lakers a few times, and are undefeated in the finals with him).

    He may not be the most skilled or complete PG, as some of you have suggested, but just look at what Rondo is doing (another one whom some contend isn’t complete as a PG). What do they have in common? Only playing with solid veterans, groomed by good coaching staffs and championship winning experience (I believe Parker was a Finals MVP for one of those).

    And did I read someone suggest Walsh fire Mike D if Phil Jackson was available? Why? That would be a total panic move and make Walsh look like he didn’t know what he was doing. Hire a guy and work for 2 seasons to instill his system, draft players for that system, purge contracts to give you the opportunity to bring in big name talent that would make that system work even better and then, all of a sudden, hire another guy (albeit one with a much better resume) who has a totally different system that requires totally different players and time for those players to learn how to effectively execute that system.

    Is this a dart throwing contest, or are we actually trying to build a championship team? We already had a team president that went after every shinny thing he saw and he ended up destroying our team. We need a steady hand with a vision and a plan to execute. All the recent championship teams have this. In my opinion, enter Donnie Walsh.

  25. Brian Cronin

    How many rings does this guy have already? I think 3?

    Derek Fisher has four (and might have five after this year) – maybe the Knicks should go after him!

    In any event, by saying he’s the next best option after Lebron and Wade, you’re basically agreeing with the idea that he is a good back-up plan, so we are in agreement!

  26. Ted Nelson

    BBA,

    Yeah, just found RAB a few months back. Great site. Very thorough coverage. The commenting has advantages and disadvantages, to me. Lots of action so you’re never bored, but there are so many responses that it’s overwhelming and time consuming.
    I’m not huge on the baseball draft, especially with the #32 pick. I do like to follow the top prospects a bit, though, so I wanted to check out Culver and what people thought. Most of the comments I left where along the lines of: “let’s wait till the kid plays before deciding if they reached.” And commenting on the one guy who basically said the kid’s dad was justified to burn down the house because the mom’s a bitch…

    Brian,

    Agree about Parker as a back-up. The other option is to pair Parker with another max guy, but according to the infamous leak Walshtoni see LeBron/Wade as the PG. Could pair Parker with Bosh, if he’ll come without LeBron/Wade.

    Agree with 26.

  27. Ted Nelson

    DS,

    No one is asking Douglas to improve by leaps and bounds, though. His TS% was already .571 as a rookie, he lit it up both from outside and getting to the basket, he was low TO, his assists improved a bit to at least low combo-guard territory for the season, and we all liked his defense. It’s just a matter of developing a little in most areas, with playmaking/PG skills being a particular area of emphasis.

    Believe it or not, Joe Dumars’ career #s are not much better than Douglas’ rookie #s: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=dumarjo01&y1=1999&p2=douglto01&y2=2010
    Dumars’ rookie numbers were worse and he was only a year younger: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=dumarjo01&y1=1986&p2=douglto01&y2=2010

    As far as age… Manu came over at 25 and got A LOT better from 25-27. We’ve all watched Lee improve in his mid-20s. Calderon, Kukoc, Cassell, PJ Brown… There are plenty of examples of players who do come into the league late and improve, even if it’s not the norm. At the end of the day, comparing Toney Douglas’ birth certificate with Rajon Rondo’s is just not that relevant.

  28. Ted Nelson

    Jafa,

    I like Parker fine, but he’s been the 3rd or 4th best player (at least 2b) on those championship teams.

    Not that there’s a chance of it happening, but hypothetically I don’t think firing D’Antoni for Jax is a panic move at all. D’Antoni is well respected, but Jax is the most successfull NBA coach of all-time. Trading David Lee for Dwight Howard would not be a panic move. I find Jax as overrated as anyone, but it’s hard to argue with results.

    The Knicks have a handful of players going into next season, and I can find you a parallel player who has suceeded for Jax in just about every case. Douglas might be a better fit for Jax than D’Antoni. Danilo is comparable in some ways to Radmonovic and hopefully Kukoc/Odom… or maybe even… Gasol (in my dreams at least). Chandler is a pretty run of the mill SF, somewhat comparable to Caron Butler. Bill Walker is a 3pt specialist who doesn’t do much else at this point. Curry just started fitting into the arena… fitting into a system is still a few steps down his 12 step plan.

    You don’t think Phil Jackson could coach LeBron and Bosh? Seriously? Seems like a pretty typical Phil “I only coach teams with 2 HOFers” Jackson team.

    I think the chances of the Knicks being coached by Jax next season are about 0.000001, but if LeBron tells Walsh to hire Jax and Jax is on board I think Walsh would be an idiot not to.

  29. DS

    Ted,

    My main point was that it’s easy to forget that Toney is already 24 and not a 20 year-old kid. Yes, he still has plenty of time to improve and I even said there are good reasons to believe he will but you can’t tell me you wouldn’t be more encouraged about his long-term outlook if he were 20 or 21.

    I stand by the assertion that Dumars at his peak was “much better” than TD will be. Toney’s shooting percentages over 1,087 minutes is too small to compare to the numbers Dumars maintained for 35,000. Dumars played good defense on Jordan, played a giant role on a two-time champion, played well enough to win a finals MVP, scored in bunches, and was named to the Hall-of-Fame.

  30. massive

    Reading that article about what Isiah Thomas did to the Knicks makes me think that he wanted to ruin the organization from Day 1. It hurt me reading what became of those draft picks. Sucks to know Joakim Noah and LeMarcus Aldridge could be in New York.

  31. Ted Nelson

    DS,

    Around here it seems the opposite: everytime anyone talks about Toney there’s a lot of talk about how because he’s 24 he can’t possibly get any better. Which is patently false.

    My opinion doesn’t vary greatly, because he was good at 23. If I look at a guy who stunk at 23 and a guy who stunk at 20, then I’ll probably view the 20 year old more favorably… he’s less developed and has more time to get better. Douglas is already a good NBA player, just has to prove that over a longer sample and refine his game.
    Rookies are still rookies, though, regardless of age. No other level of competition is as competitive, athletic, skilled, and grueling as the NBA. There just aren’t many examples of guys who go on to be good NBA players who are already as good as they’ll get as rookies, regardless of age (there are plenty of guys who never get better, but they usually stink or there’s an off-court reason).

    I’m not saying Dumars wasn’t good, I’m saying that Toney Douglas is good. Another thing I’m saying is that at 23 (his second NBA season) Dumars was clearly worse offensively than Douglas: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=douglto01&y1=2010&p2=dumarjo01&y2=1987
    Experience/longevity is a bit of an unfair measuring stick… by that logic I can say John Wall is “much worse” than Chris Duhon because he’s done nothing over zero NBA minutes, while Duhon has played 12,706 NBA minutes.
    I doubt Douglas will end up a HOFer, but under the right circumstances it’s certainly possible (LeBron got Mo Williams to the All-Star game, so maybe Douglas can become a perennial All-Star on a LeBron led dynasty… Dumars made 3rd team All-NBA twice, 2nd Team once, and was an All-Star 6 times). If Dumars had played on a lesser team I don’t know he’d be a HOFer.

  32. SeeWhyDee77

    Jafa…
    I was the one “suggesting” hiring Phil Jackson. But I did it not becuz I dislike Mike D. But becuz, like Ted said, Phil is THE most successful coach in the NBA. And this would be the perfect time to do a coach swap, as the only player on the roster that seems to fit Mike D’s system is Rooster. Other than him, we Walsh hasn’t really acquired any players to fit the system. To me, it’s like the stars are aligned perfectly for goin after Phil Jackson. Cap room for 2 all stars, Buss’ reported reluctance to pay Jackson, and Mike D’s seemingly reluctance to hire assistants to focus on defense. Just think about it, given rumblings around the league about the stars, more importantly Delonte West’s stepson lol- which recruiting plan would u rather have? “OK star A and star B, we have a offensive mad scientist-the Mike Martz of hoops, cap room to get both of you, and The Garden an the rest of what NYC can offer you” Or, “OK stars A&B, we got this cap room, NYC and the Garden AND Phil Jackson-who has more titles than any coach in league history.”? I’ll be happy either way becuz I think D’Antoni’s a great coach. But if Jackson were available, the only way Mike D would be returning is on one condition- hire someone to shore up the defense..a Wade Phillips of sorts. See, the difference between Phil and Mike D is Phil defines roles and has players fall in place. Mike D, it seems, doesn’t do a great job at it. Now, if u get the right combination of players, then hell yea Mike D can win a chip usin his system. But it seems like it would be harder to shop for Mike than it would be for Phil..
    @32..and don’t forget Zeke drafted Balkman instead of Rondo…

  33. massive

    I hope LeBron and Wade were watching. Derek Fisher just showed how important a complementary guard is on a championshiop team. The low-usage type that can score efficiently, isn’t afraid to get to the basket, has a reliable outside jumper, and is tenacious on defense. Derek Fisher is somewhere in between Douglas’ best and worst case scenario, proving that Douglas can be a starting guard on a championship team. He’ll just need to be next to a star like Kobe. So Wade and LeBron should be able to see Douglas as their Derek Fisher. Can’t necessarily name a team where a PG like Baron Davis or Derrick Rose meshed well with another dominant perimeter scorer. I guess you can say Parker and Ginobili, but neither guy was really the number 1 option. That was Tim Duncan’s team. With that said, I hope the Lakers win, lessening the whole “Big Three” effect going into free agency.

  34. massive

    Maybe LeBron/Wade is thinking “whoever wins the championship this year is the way i should have a team molded around me.” If Boston wins, the “Big Three” appeal in Miami could be crazy. But if the Lakers win, New York can say “We already have our Derek Fisher (Douglas). We just need our Kobe and Gasol. One of you two will be Kobe, and Gasol (Bosh) will follow.”

    On a side note, did you know that Amir Johnson was selected by Detroit with the 26th pick of the 2nd round? Talk about finding value late, gives me more hope that Donnie can find a rotation player/s with the 38th and 39th picks.

  35. Jafa

    ESPN reporting Avery Johnson to the Nets. Good or bad for our LBJ prospects if he had to choose between us and them?

  36. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Did you know that Derek Fisher is an inefficient point guard?

    2009-2010 Reg. Season/Playoffs PER: 9.3/10.9

    His .571 TS% is passable, but nearly every other metric argues that he’s a weak spot in that lineup. And he has posted, thus far, the highest playoff TOV% of his career since he was twenty-three! Yes! Twenty-three! But wait– isn’t he a veteran? HOW CAN THIS BE?!?!?!

    You put DWTDD on the Lakers in a starting role and there’s very little doubt that (gasp) they’re a better team.

    He had 2 3/4 terrible games and then puts up a streak in a quarter and suddenly he’s Rajon Rondo.

    His line last night 1.25 PPS on 12 FGA, 3 REB (0 ORB), 1 AST, 0 STL, 0 BLK, 2 TO, 5 PF.

    I’ll pass.

  37. Brian Cronin

    I was reading an article on ESPN New York about Lebron James and it had a glaring error in it.

    Johnette Howard wrote it (anyone know who she is?) and it included the following paragraph:

    It’s not necessarily the best basketball move James could make. The Chicago Bulls, not the Knicks or New Jersey Nets, have the best roster among the six teams with the salary-cap room to sign James. The Miami Heat at least have a proven winner, Pat Riley, in their front office. The Knicks haven’t been able to crack the postseason for 10 straight years, and the Meadowlands-Newark-Brooklyn Nets narrowly avoided setting the record for losses this season.

    The Knicks were in the playoffs six years ago.

    That seems to be a pretty glaring error, right?

  38. BigBlueAL

    Plus they made the playoffs in 2001 so they have made the playoffs twice in the past 10 years. They have had 9 straight losing seasons however/unfortunately.

  39. Ted Nelson

    Most, if not all, of the articles I’ve read from the ESPN New York section have been downright terrible.

  40. DS

    ESPN NY Article also entertains the idea that LeBron “could really be swayed by his friend Jay-Z “.

    We’ve been listening to the Jay-Z horse shit for what? Three years now? Jay recently came out and said as LeBron’s friend he’s not going to pressure him into joining a shitty team. Jay is a front man. He wants to promote himself, and to promote Brooklyn. But he’s not going to stoop to Mikael’s and Bruce’s level to build up the Nets in BK.

  41. ess-dog

    Looks like the Knicks liked what they saw from Zoubek:

    http://www.theknicksblog.com/2010/06/10/knicks-impressed-by-zoubek-other-workout-notes/

    Interesting to hear from Walsh about needing shot blocking and maybe a pg with the 2 picks, yet not unexpected. I think Zoubek could be a steal. Yes, the injury history scares me, but someone with O-rebounding skills that good makes me think: 1. great court awareness and 2. great hustle. AND he’s 7’2″. So what if he can barely jump. And maybe he has better offensive moves than we were able to see at Duke. Ideally he could be a Robin Lopez type player.
    Maybe we can grab Torrence or Randle with the other pick. I’m not feelin’ Brackins. He smells a little too much like Al No Sharington to me…

  42. Ted Nelson

    In Chad Ford’s insider article about the Bulls case for LeBron he makes the point that while Chicago has maybe the best present day roster, it doesn’t necessarily fit LeBron’s game the best (esp. Rose). He also points out that the Knicks can surround LeBron with better shooters. Means absolutely nothing at the end of the day, but comforting that not everyone is buying into the Bulls talent hype.

  43. Ted Nelson

    ess-dog,

    Not too comforting to hear Walsh say he’s going to pick for need, though bigs are where the value in this draft might lie anyway and a good point or two could be on the board.
    Otherwise I like the Walsh quotes… Doubling up on bigmen with the picks could be a good strategy: double your chances of getting a good one, and if you end up with two good bigmen that’s hardly a problem. Very interesting to hear that even Walsh doesn’t know if the Knicks can afford to buy a 1st or how early on at least(cap wise, not $ wise).
    To state the obvious: really, to a large extent picking 38/39 you’re at the mercy of the teams ahead of you. Can only pick from the guys that haven’t been taken. In a way Walsh has no idea who he’s going to take until the draft gets rolling.

    Al Harrington would be an excellent 2nd round pick… you have to consider that only a handful of 2nd rounders from the average draft ever become decent NBA players. To get an above average player in the 2nd is huge. I don’t have a strong opinion on Brackins either way, I’m just saying being a tiny bit comarable to Al Harrington isn’t a reason to write him off.

    I guess Zoubek’s about as unknown/volatile/”raw” as you can be for a Duke senior coming off a national title, so maybe he’s better than people think. I wouldn’t be opposed to the Knicks taking him if they love him, but with so many bigs in this draft I’d be a little skeptical…

    Depends whose taken ahead of the Knicks, but for a visual and maybe to spark a discussion… here are some names that COULD be there:

    PGs: Armon Johnson, Eric Bledsoe, Sherron Collins, Greivis Vasquez, Willie Warren, Lance Stephenson, Matt Bouldin, Jon Scheyer, Elliot Williams, Terrico White, Mikhail Torrance

    Bigs: Varnado, Jerome Jordan, Brackins, Booker, Samardo Samuels, Zoubek, Foote, Gani Lawal, Kevin Seraphin, Paulao Prestes

    Never know what will happen on draft day, and I wouldn’t be even a tiny bit surprised to see them both drafted… but Foote and Zoubek are both undrafted on nbadraft.net and Zoubek is the last pick on draftexpress while Foote is undrafted… With so many open roster spots the Knicks are in a position to land one or two or more of the top undrafted FAs. They’re already got roster holds in place for the empty spots up to 12, and that roster charge is equal to the rookie min.

  44. massive

    I think we shouldn’t draft Zoubek and if he goes undrafted, sign him to our summer league team. Jerome Randle is a player that I doubt the Knicks take, but he is undersized, and that’s why we passed on Lawson last year. But there should be some value there for us. The draft is unpredictable, especially around when we pick. I just feel that we should take the best players available, no matter what the position/fit is.

  45. ess-dog

    One thing I could see the Knicks doing is moving up in the 2nd round since 1. 2nd rounders matter little to most teams beside the Knicks this year and 2. it wouldn’t count against our cap and if they REALLY like someone that’s left after round one, they could offer something like swapping 2nd rounders and giving a 2nd in 2012 with the Thunder.
    Seems like Brackins and Zoubek are the only names I’ve heard positive discussion about post workouts. Who knows how much to believe that, but based on last year’s draft where Hill was said to have made an impression, I suppose something could be there.
    The bigs do seems stronger this draft. There is no guard out there that I feel would challenge for minutes on the Knicks (maybe Crawford soon, maybe Bledsoe by next year) but of course, it depends on who’s around to draft.

  46. Ted Nelson

    massive,

    I don’t know… but if Zoubek is considered one of the top undrafted free agents another team MIGHT offer him a contract, not just a summer league invite. If they like him there’s little downside to the Knicks offering him a contract (even a guaranteed one) as long as it’s not much over the rookie minimum. A contract offer could help him pick the Knicks if he has multiple suitors. The NBA puts a cap hold of the rookie minimum on every vacant roster spot under 12 men anyway (as in, with 4 players under contract the Knicks would have 8 holds, if they pick up Walker’s option and/or a first rounder 6 or 7).

    Randle doesn’t look nearly as good as Lawson, but who knows.

    Agree that they should be thinking best player available.

    ess-dog,

    Early 2nd rounder can sometimes be harder to get than late 1sts, since there’s no guaranteed contracts. With one of the first few picks of the second round you can take a shot at a kid you thought had 1st round talent, and if it isn’t working just cut him. Or a draft and follow guy from Europe as Minni did with Pekovic. I agree that they could try to move up, but like you said it’s probably going to take 2 2nds of something.

    Agree that you can’t know what to believe with those sorts of rumors.

    The Knicks only have 4 or 5 players right now, so I could see pretty muchly anyone they draft playing… though D’Antoni might decide to play the Duhons of the world ahead of them instead.

  47. ess-dog

    The Knicks could be a hot undtafted fee agent spot this year, with people hoping to get in on the ground floor so to speak. A bad team that could have a quick turn around. Also just the fact that there are so many roster spots open and no1st rounders to compete with (like say Minnesota) could give us first dibs. It’s a risk hoping that someone you like will slip through. I’m sure the Knicks will just map out their favorites and take the bpa with their draft picks. The only position that seems tough to draft for is sg. While we definitely aren’t set there, it’s hard to pick a young upside guy in the 2nd round when you have Chandler and Walker already, same for sf since both of those guys play there as well. But some mocks have us taking Crawford or Hobson, so who knows?

  48. ess-dog

    Also Ted, nice dig at D’Antoni at the end there. Actually I could see him going to a 7 man rotation if he doesn’t get any other players he likes. With Bosh, Bron, Gallo, Chandler, Douglas, Walker, and center X, he might just stop there until he gets an injury.

  49. massive

    Does anybody know anything about French PG Thomas Huertel? According to Chad Ford, the positives are his good floor vision, deep range on his jumper, and loves to attack the rim. The negatives are that he’s a below average defender, needs to add strength, and not a leader yet. He’s 21, 6 foot 2, and 180 pounds. Apparently, he walked away with MVP honors at the Adidas Eurocamp this past weekend. He’s currently the 7th best PG in the draft according to Chad Ford, behind Wall, Bledsoe, Armon Johnson, Warren, Collins, and Torrance. Although I do see Torrance and Collins falling to us, I would be pissed if he’s the French stud everybody missed like Batum and Beaubois, including us.

  50. BigBlueAL

    You all know I am not a big Nate fan at all and the T he got tonight plus basically disregarding Ray Allen yelling at him for it is the main reason why I hate him, but he played a great game tonight.

  51. iserp

    Indeed, great game for Nate.

    For all the good supporting cast Kobe (or should i say Gasol?) has, their bench sucks.

  52. Ted Nelson

    ess-dog,

    Agree that the open roster spots plus maybe the chance to play with a couple of stars should make the Knicks a hot spot for UFAs. I don’t ever follow whether those guys get contract offers/only summer league invites (probably a lot more of the latter), but it might make sense for the Knicks to sign one or two up right away if they take the rookie min… Their roster would look marginally more complete come July 1st (a tiny, tiny bit), but mostly they can sell whoever it is (say Foote) on the fact that LeBron “is” coming.
    (I got excited about Foote when the Knicks were talking about him, but would be way more excited as an UFA than 38/39.)

    Neither Chandler nor Walker has “guard skills” (handling/distributing the ball, running p&r, etc.). If a Jordan Crawford type is the real deal he should find his way into the rotation, though I guess they do already have a combo-guard in Douglas.
    I think it’s a mistake to look at the current roster when drafting, though. If it’s a good enough player he’ll earn minutes. This is even true early in the draft (Bowie over Jordan, for an extreme example), but it’s far more true in the 2nd. Only a few guys from the 2nd round are likely to be in the league a few years from now, even fewer viable rotation players. If you think you’ve identified one of those guys and he slips to you, I don’t care what position he plays. A guy can’t fill a spot in your rotation if he gets cut in training camp or is out of the league in 2 years…
    (With all the bigmen in the draft, you have to like the odds of one good one being overlooked and slipping to the Knicks… so I wouldn’t mind going big with both picks if you have to go for need… double your odds of finding a servicable C… one of the only guys I will be outwardly disappointed if the Knicks pass on at 38/39 is Varnado… would love to take a chance on him.)

    D’Antoni probably will go with a short rotation. It’s if they don’t get big ticket free agents that I’m more worried about him not playing talented rookies (if they get LeBron/Bosh and win 50+ games it will matter a lot less to me whether the rookie 2nd rounder played than if they’re still “rebuilding”). Or just playing them behind lesser players as he did this season.

  53. Ted Nelson

    ess-dog,

    Agree that the open roster spots plus maybe the chance to play with a couple of stars should make the Knicks a hot spot for UFAs. I don’t ever follow whether those guys get contract offers/only summer league invites (probably a lot more of the latter), but it might make sense for the Knicks to sign one or two up right away if they take the rookie min… Their roster would look marginally more complete come July 1st (a tiny, tiny bit), but mostly they can sell whoever it is (say Foote) on the fact that LeBron “is” coming.
    (I got excited about Foote when the Knicks were talking about him, but would be way more excited as an UFA than 38/39.)

    Neither Chandler nor Walker has “guard skills” (handling/distributing the ball, running p&r, etc.). If a Jordan Crawford type is the real deal he should find his way into the rotation, though I guess they do already have a combo-guard in Douglas.
    I think it’s a mistake to look at the current roster when drafting, though. If it’s a good enough player he’ll earn minutes. This is even true early in the draft (Bowie over Jordan, for an extreme example), but it’s far more true in the 2nd. Only a few guys from the 2nd round are likely to be in the league a few years from now, even fewer viable rotation players. If you think you’ve identified one of those guys and he slips to you, I don’t care what position he plays. A guy can’t fill a spot in your rotation if he gets cut in training camp or is out of the league in 2 years…
    (With all the bigmen in the draft, you have to like the odds of one good one being overlooked and slipping to the Knicks… so I wouldn’t mind going big with both picks if you have to go for need… double your odds of finding a servicable C… one of the only guys I will be outwardly disappointed if the Knicks pass on at 38/39 is Varnado… would love to take a chance on him.)

    D’Antoni probably will go with a short rotation. It’s if they don’t get big ticket free agents that I’m more worried about him not playing talented rookies (if they get LeBron/Bosh and win 50+ games it will matter a lot less to me whether the rookie 2nd rounder played than if they’re still “rebuilding”). Or just playing them behind lesser players as he did this season.

  54. Ted Nelson

    whoops… (My stupid computer won’t let me download Firefox, which prevents double posts.)

    massive,

    (Tony Parker could join Batum/Roddy on your list.)
    If the Knicks are looking PG (which Walsh says they are), I guess he’s got to be on their list.

    For what it’s worth, this has been called the worst Adidas EuroCamp ever by some scouts. Heurtel’s numbers from the tournament were not at all impressive (2-13 from 3 for example). Maybe that’s good in that he was able to impact the game even while not firing on all cylinders, but it could just mean he was MVP by default.

    My guess is Heurtel would make more sense as a draft-and-follow for a team that’s not looking for immediate help. I don’t think that should discourage the Knicks if they love the kid, but with so many open roster spots I doubt they go that route. He seems like he’s a late riser who will end up getting drafted, but who knows.

    (I don’t mean to be racist, but he’s a white French dude. So the athletic upside of the Batum’s and Pietrus’ and Roddy’s isn’t there… those three are very athletic even by NBA standards. Pietrus and Roddy are not actually from France, but a French colony in the Carribean, Guadeloupe. Heurtal is a run-and-gun type, fundementally sound, and intense… but there are questions about whether he’s an NBA prospect or just a European All-Star.)

    Heurtel also brings up an interesting issue to me: could these camps be like the NCAA Tournament is for overhyping college prospects in a small sample size??? Some kids are on the radar screen for a long time and I’m sure most NBA teams are trying to scout Europe by now, but if

    Edwin Jackson is another interesting guard from France, but he’s an undersized 2. Jump shooter with good athleticism… a bit of a Leandro Barbosa ceiling, maybe more athletic Ben Gordon. Slightly longer that Willie Warren, and much better run-jump athleticism at the combine than Warren or Dominique Jones. Has a great jumper, but hasn’t harnessed it into efficient scoring at the adult level. He was entered into the draft (same agent as Heurtel, who seems to be the agent for every single French player), not sure if he’s still in. Has traditionally been considered more of an NBA prospect than Heurtel. Antoine Diot is a French combo-guard with decent size. Raw and inconsistent, but reminds me a little of an Antonio Daniels maybe. Between the three I’d bet one is an NBA player… my money is on Jackson. He can light it up and is athletic, if his jumper gets (a lot) more consistent he can definitely play at the NBA level. If he goes undrafted would be great for the Knicks to get him on their summer league team for a look.

  55. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    If the Knicks ever draft a white Frenchman again I’ll switch to the Nets. I swear I will.

  56. DS

    * Maybe Sean Williams from the Nets could be a cheap option for the Knicks to fill in the roster. His rookie season he had a PER of 14, was 2nd in the league in Block PCT., and boasted a TS% of .563.

    PLUS Leon Rose is his agent and he could show LeBron a good time: http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2010/01/10/2010-01-10_nets_star_sean_williams_reportedly_causes_a_ruckus_at_m2_ultralounge__twice.html

    * More talk about Bosh to the Lakers for Bynum:
    http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-simers-20100611,0,3159424,full.column

    I think all three parties (L.A., Tor., and Bosh) could agree on this deal; Bosh could shore up L.A.’s chances for the next 3 years (granted, they wouldn’t be as tough in the middle and their 10 year outlook might not be as strong), Bosh would go to a big market and gain a rep. as a winner (though the 6-10 PF/C field might be a bit crowded in L.A. and he can sign a 6 year deal), and Toronto who stands to lose Bosh anyway could land a franchise big man. I think L.A. is the party most likely to balk.

  57. Ted Nelson

    THCJ,

    I don’t know that the Knicks are going to take him, but Heurtel is actually a pretty good athlete (not a freak, though). Weis was pretty stiff, and his biggest problem (from the Knicks perspective) was that he just didn’t want to come over. Heurtel had one of the highest verts at the combine (right there with Edwin Jackson, though his standing vert was significantly lower) and has a good handle/cross-over. Decent all around game, just a matter of whether he’s at the NBA level it seems. Maybe he can be an undrafted guy who comes over later ala Calderon or Nocioni if he doesn’t get picked.

    DS,

    Williams would definitely be worth a look, but I wouldn’t expect anything from him. Has gotten worse rather than better since coming into the league and didn’t get picked up by another team after getting cut in January…
    Probably want to him on the summer league squad to find out whether there’s any chance of him ever making it mentally.
    Definitely a chance that a change of organization/coaching staff could revive him. If it’s a lifestyle issue getting out of NY/NJ is probably smart, though.

    I would probably balk if I were LA. If he can stay healthy I’d say Bynum is just as good as Bosh, a better fit, and 3 years younger. He doesn’t seem to be able to stay healthy; although, he’s also not Greg Oden.
    Their defense would suffer with Bosh, but maybe their offense would improve (only 11th in the NBA…getting a PG would be the easiest way to improve the offense, though).
    I do think Gasol and Bosh could play together offensively. Gasol, Bosh, Odom is still a sick frontcourt and they’ll be a serious contender either way.

  58. massive

    So ESPN’s Rumor Central is saying that Tyson Chandler might be looking to test free agency. He’d be a fool to terminate the 12.6 mil left on that deal, but he should be able to solve our “last line of defense” problem. I really doubt he does this though, and I doubt he’s D’Antoni’s guy. But if we were looking to sign Marcus Camby, maybe he’ll be considered.

  59. ess-dog

    @68,
    Not sure if he’d be a fool. There’s a lot of bling out there this summer, and it might be beneficial for him to get a longer contract NOW before the new cba agreement next year. If he checks out physically, I could see him getting at least 9 mil for 4-5 years, no?

  60. massive

    @70,
    I guess if he’s in his best shape, then yes. I could see a team like OKC offering him that type of money, maybe even Washington.

  61. Z-man

    I just checked out some articles and video of Dexter Pittman from Texas. Really liked what I saw and think this guy is going to be a second round steal a la DeJuan Blair. Would love to see us take a chance on him with one of these second round picks. Apparently he was an academic all big-12 as a sophomore, so maybe at worst he turns out to be Eddy Curry with a brain. Biggest hands in draft. Here’s where having D’Antoni as a coach comes into play, this guy probably doesn’t fit his system unless he somehow gets into top shape. He has lost a ton of weight since arriving at Texas, so is on the right trajectory.

    Here’s some video and the article:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCZryTYGp6E
    http://www.nbadraft.net/players/dexter-pittman
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4NbkNaVJRg&feature=related

  62. TDM

    Collison would be a great pick-up for the knicks. I didn’t read the linked story, but if it’s the one I read earlier, the only way they’d let him go is I they could package him with Okafor. Win-Win in my opinion.

    Also, just read that Rafer Alston wants to play for the knicks next season. He’s not starting material but coming off the bench wouldn’t be so bad.

    And, in other news, I am officially transferring to my employers NY office and hope that my presence in the Big Apple will be the deciding factor for LBJ. See you at the Garden biaaatches!

  63. Z

    LA will miss you TDM! (crazy immigration stances and all :)

    Will you rescind the offer if LeBron lands with the Clips?

  64. massive

    Darren Collison would be a great pick-up, but I wouldn’t do this unless Eddy Curry was used in a sign and trade for Bosh. Collison, in maybe 2-3 years, can be the 2nd scoring option on our team. He would also make signing Amar’e Stoudemire or Carlos Boozer a lot less skeptical, because we’ll have a good point guard to run the P&R with either of them. Not saying Collison is Deron Williams or Steve Nash, but New Orleans hardly missed CP3 because of Collison’s stellar play. If we trade Curry + the draft rights of one of our picks (hopefully that guy will suck) to Toronto for Bosh, we’ll have approximately 27 mill in space, so taking Okafor back in a deal for Collison sort of kills two birds with one stone. Gets us a starter at the 1 and 5 with Gallo/Bosh at the 3 and 4, with roughly 14 mil left to offer Joe Johnson, because Wade nor LeBron is taking less than the max.

    Maybe Donnie Walsh decides he can make the Collison deal a three way trade with Detroit. We get Collison and Ben Gordon, Detroit takes Emeka Ofakor and somebody else, and New Orleans gets Will Bynum, Bill Walker, and the rights to a 2nd round draft pick in 2014. Detroit needs a defender to play next to Charlie V, and Ben Gordon for Okafor isn’t terrible when you have no 5, and Rip is already tied up. We do this because Collison/Gordon is a good back-court, and I think Gordon is a better value at 10 mil/4 years than Okafor at 13 mil/4 years, and Joe Johnson at 13 mil-max/5 years. New Orleans does this because they get another back-up PG, a good scorer on the wing, and cap relief. The beauty of this, for us, is that we still have around 17 mil in cap space to throw at LeBron. If LeBron decides to take a long time, We’ll have a Collison/Gordon/Gallo/Bosh core waiting for him. And if he turns us down, we can go after Chandler (if he’s out there) for 9-10 mil to solve our problem in the middle, and have money for a good bench, like Bell, Barnes, Frye, Korver, Amir Johnson, etc.

    PG: Collison
    SG: Gordon
    SF: Gallo
    PF: Bosh
    C: Chandler
    Bench: Douglas, Bell, Frye, Johnson, Barron(?), undrafted rookies.

    Not a bad way to start the new Knicks Era. And if you look at the 07-08 Hornets, they looked like Paul/Peterson/Peja/West/Chandler, and was the 2nd seed in the West. I think this projected team is just as good, if not better, than that team. I think this would be a good way to use the cap space, and a good fall-back from LeBron rejection.

  65. Brian Cronin

    Hey Ted, will your computer allow you to download Google Chrome?

    I hear they’ve improved to the point where they might even be better than Firefox now (I’m too ingrained with Firefox to switch, but there’s still hope for the rest of you!).

  66. Brian Cronin

    As for the Bosh/Bynum deal – I dunno, Bynum just seems to fit LA sooooooooo well.

    Wouldn’t Bosh and Gasol duplicate a lot of the same skills? That’s not a bad thing necessarily, but when you have a guy like Bynum who is a perfect compliment to Gasol, I don’t see why LA would go away from that. I could definitely see Toronto going for it – just switch Bargnani to the 4 and that’s a strong combo for years to come.

  67. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    massive,

    http://dberri.wordpress.com/2010/05/30/rodney-stuckey-equals-rajon-rondo-2/

    According to Dave Berri, Gordon cost them wins. Wins Produced isn’t a perfect metric, but something tells me that it’s not terrible off-the-mark when it comes to his play. His PER last year was 14.0, below average, and his TS% of .534 isn’t exactly comforting. Do you really think Gordon is a starter on a conference powerhouse?

    I mean, really– he’s got a player option in 2013-14 for $13.5M. Is that something you really want as a Knicks fan? It reeks of Isiah.

  68. massive

    THCJ,

    You know its funny, because right after I posted that, I remembered Ben Gordon was 6 foot 3. I thought that wouldn’t be a great move, but then I thought I’d rather have him over Okafor in D’Antoni’s system. I would really love that if Walsh wanted Collison, he would try to pawn off Emeka Okafor on a team that needs a 5 and we take a more useful overpaid guy, like Gordon. Just trying to think out of the box, and stir up some conversation. A team like Golden State, Philly, Detroit, Portland, or Sacramento could all use Okafor’s services (tough, defensive 5), but don’t have the cap space to offer New Orleans cap relief. Maybe Okafor is better than whoever one of those teams is looking to get rid of, but I hope we can turn that fat contract we inevitably have to take back into something more useful than Okafor.

  69. massive

    THCJ,

    Also, its only an Isiah move if your roster is full of bad contracts. Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph thrived on other teams despite the size of their contracts. Q was solid in Miami, Stephon Marbury did okay in Boston last year, so its nothing to really worry about. If we tried to add Ben Gordon to a roster of Marbury/Crawford/Q/Randolph/Curry thinking he’ll get us over the hump, that’s an Isiah Thomas move.

  70. d-mar

    Z-man – Pittman is 6′ 11″ 300 lbs. and wears #34, but hopefully his work ethic would be superior to Fat Eddy’s. Probably not a bad gamble in the 2nd round, plus I hear he’s really close with LeBron’s 2nd cousin’s best friend’s wife, so he could be a drawing card for LBJ.

  71. SeeWhyDee77

    lol..thas our 2nd max FA rite there!!! This Ricardo guy should thrive in tha SSOL..but I wonder, what about his handle? He did look quite agile moving around those tables with a tray full of glasses in his hand. Good one rohank!

  72. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    massive,

    But Ben Gordon is bad. Demonstrably bad. He’ll be a .100 WP/48 player at best in this system, and that’s no way to win a championship. Hell, that will barely get you to the playoffs.

  73. Ted Nelson

    @72,

    I believe it was two minutes that Pittman could stay on the court in college: i.e. Texas had to rotate him out after two minutes of court time. He’s definitely worth a look and might turn into a productive NBA player for limited minutes, but he may not have the genetics to be able to stay on the court.

    re: Darren Collison

    He’s a promising rookie, but definitely a bigtime back-up plan. Okafor is a mediocre player with a huge contract, and Collison still has a lot to prove…

    NO hardly missed Chris Paul? They won 12 fewer games than last season… Collison played well for a rookie, but was an average starting PG overall.

    “Not a bad way to start the new Knicks Era. And if you look at the 07-08 Hornets, they looked like Paul/Peterson/Peja/West/Chandler, and was the 2nd seed in the West.”

    When he’s healthy Chris Paul is also one of the top 3-5 players in the NBA. One of the best PGs in the history of basketball… It’s a bit like saying that because Cleveland has won so many games, the Knicks should rush out and get a back-court of Mo Williams and Anthony Parker…

    Okafor is not really a 5, either. He struggled a bit this season moving from the 4 to the 5.

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